August 22, 2023 • 47 mins
Did God create evil? What is evil? If God didn't create evil, where did it come from? Don and Tana explore the origins of evil, concepts of justice, and what it means for the world to have both light and darkness.
Previous podcast episodes referenced:
- Should We Focus on Sin? (Episode 113)
- Adam & Eve's Eviction: The True Story (Episode 108) - this is what we referred to as a "garden theology"
Bible passages referenced:
Genesis 2: 9
Isaiah 45: 7
Micah 6: 8
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tana (00:06):
Hello, and welcome to Ancient Jesus Future Faith.
I am one of your hosts, TanaSchiewer, and I'm here with Don
Schiewer.
Hello.
And today we want to talk aboutthe concept of evil.
(Don (00:21):
oooooooo) That was our fancy side effect, uh, button.
Side effect?
Side effect.
Sound effect.
Don (00:30):
I do, I do have side effects, like nausea, pain in
the neck.
Tana (00:37):
You should record that sound and sell it, honey.
Uh, yes.
Anyway, evil.
Yay! So, um, I wanted to talkabout this topic because it is
something that has always been alittle bit of a, um, perplexing
(00:59):
thing to me.
Sure.
And for me, that's because...
Well, actually, if you don'tmind, I'll just read the Bible
verse that always kind of makesme think about this.
Okay, it's Genesis 2, 9, and itsays,"Out of the ground Adonai,
(01:22):
God, caused to grow every treepleasing in appearance and good
for food, including the tree oflife in the middle of the garden
and the tree of knowledge ofgood and evil." Uh, and that's
the complete Jewish Bible I wasreading from.
So, that is the first time theword evil is mentioned in the
Bible.
(01:42):
It's pretty early.
That's fairly early.
I mean, Genesis 2, in the earlypart, and it says, the tree of
the knowledge of good and evil.
There's no description of, um,evil being created or
spontaneously forming oranything.
It's...
It's...
That, to me, I read that, and Ithink, oh, the assumption there
(02:06):
is evil already exists.
Right?
Don (02:09):
Yes.
Tana (02:11):
And, up until then, everything is, um, just, you
know, God creating things,having the earth bring forth
things, and so to me that meansit's, it's already there.
It doesn't specifically say.
(02:31):
That God created evil, but ifthe basic understanding is that
God created everything...
Don (02:40):
Well, the Bible does say God created evil.
Tana (02:43):
Oh, it does?
Where?
Don (02:45):
Isaiah 45 7.
Tana (02:47):
Isaiah 45 7.
Do you have it there?
Do you want to read it or do youwant me to pull it up?
Don (02:54):
Uh, you can pull it up.
Tana (02:56):
Say it again,
Don (02:57):
Isaiah 45 7.
Tana (02:59):
45 7.
I'm glad you repeated thatbecause I remembered it
completely incorrectly.
Okay, Isaiah 45 7.
"I form light, I createdarkness, I make well being, I
create woe, I, Adonai, do allthese things."
Don (03:14):
Yeah, the word woe is the same word as evil.
Tana (03:18):
So.
Okay, so it does say God createdevil.
Don (03:23):
Yes.
Tana (03:23):
So what's up with that?
That's, that's my big question.
Don (03:28):
Well, I think first of all, we have to decide what is the
definition of evil that is, youknow, there's, you know, the
tradition of the first usage ofsomething is when you get the
definition for it.
But this is a tough one to get adefinition from that.
Yeah.
From that verse because it'sjust spoken as a category.
(03:52):
Right.
And so.
So, if we're looking at it, uh,it's the tree of knowledge of
good and evil, which just seemsto mean the ability to
differentiate, um, twocategories.
Tana (04:09):
Sure.
Don (04:10):
Right?
And, and I think that that'swhere maybe we begin with
thinking about it.
So, we have added over...
centuries, millennia, all theseother things to what it is that
makes something evil.
Tana (04:28):
Mm hmm.
Don (04:29):
And I'm not certain that that verse is talking about just
the Jeffrey Dahmers of theworld.
Tana (04:39):
Mm hmm.
Don (04:41):
Or just the racist or bigots of the world.
But that this is It's reallyabout the ability to understand
what gives life and what bringsdeath.
Evil brings death, um, justice,mercy, and love, uh, Micah 6, 8,
(05:08):
right?
Um, that brings life.
And so...
This picture or this, uh,parable, this story that's being
told about the garden is that insome way, this tree, uh, the
fruit of the tree representshumanity's ability to understand
(05:36):
the difference.
Like, I think if we look aroundtoday, there are things that
most people are in agreementabout that it's evil.
But there's a lot of things thatpeople debate.
What is good and what is evil,or what brings life and what
(05:57):
brings death.
Some people will even arguethings that literally bring
death are positives as a whole.
So, so I think that's where,where we have to start with the
idea of evil.
So what does that do?
Like, is that helpful for you tothink about?
Is that, like, does that undoeven some of the conversation
(06:19):
you wanted to have today?
Tana (06:20):
I think, I don't, I don't think it undoes it.
I think what I'm trying to getat is what...
I, I think if you asked mostChristians about evil, it's
(06:44):
like, there's this, I don'tthink a lot of people have
thought about it, honestly, andI think there's this idea of
mostly from all these extrabiblical sources, right, of like
the fallen angel, Lucifer, youknow, Satan fell from heaven and
it's like, it's almost likeevil, like was created
independently of God.
(07:05):
Right?
Don (07:06):
Sure.
I think, I think it's reallyuncomfortable for us if we
believe in a supreme being thatis love incarnate, not even
incarnate, but just loveembodied.
Tana (07:21):
Yeah.
Don (07:22):
That it's hard then to be like, and that, that being also
create evil.
Tana (07:27):
Right.
So I do think a definition of itwould be very, very helpful.
'cause I don't think we canescape the idea that if it
exists, God must have createdit.
If that's your biblical, if likeif that's your worldview, that
God created everything,
Don (07:45):
mm-hmm
Tana (07:46):
then you either have to say, God created evil, or you
have to admit that somethingelse existed with God.
Do you know what I mean?
Don (07:53):
Well, I think it, I think we can even go more nuanced than
that though.
Right?
Like, if I create a law, I'venow created more than just a
law, what else have I created?
Tana (08:12):
I don't know, like punishments for that law?
Don (08:15):
Yeah, even without, like, unless obviously within the law
I list what the punishments arefor failing it, I've created two
things regardless of anythingelse.
I make a rule or a law, I'vecreated two things.
Let's say it's a rule instead ofa law.
Tana (08:28):
Okay.
Don (08:29):
Rule followers?
Rule breakers.
Tana (08:32):
Okay.
Don (08:33):
Now I haven't done anything.
Right.
Like I haven't caused people tobe rule followers or rule
breakers.
I've only created a rule.
Uh, and, and instantly thenpeople are either one of those
two categories.
So I think that's probably moreof the nuance that at least even
(08:56):
Isaiah seems to be touching onthat.
I think.
you know, ancient thinkers aboutGod would have, right?
It says in Isaiah, I createlight and I create darkness.
Well, there's nowhere in thetext, in the creation narrative,
where darkness is actually oneof the things created, unless
you want to argue the Spirit ofGod hovering over the Tohu
(09:19):
Vavohu, which is the formlessand deep.
But even then, it doesn't saythat God created the formless
and deep.
It just says that the Spirit ofGod was hovering over that.
Tana (09:28):
Yeah, I guess he said, let there be light, right?
He didn't say let there be lightand darkness.
Don (09:31):
But the moment that there is light, now it is defining
itself against the darkness.
Tana (09:40):
Darkness.
Don (09:41):
And therefore, by creating light in a dark space, it has
now created both things that arein the light and things that are
outside the light.
And what is it?
What do we call things thataren't in the light, what we
call them in the dark, andtherefore...
do you see what I'm saying?
So just philosophically, you canmake a case that by creating
(10:04):
light
Tana (10:05):
mm-hmm.
Don (10:05):
You've also then immediately, you've created the
need for a category of darkness.
Tana (10:12):
Okay, so it says,"In the beginning, God created the
heavens and the earth.
The earth was unformed and void.
Darkness was on the face of thedeep, and the Spirit of God
hovered over the surface of thewater." So I would infer that if
God created the heavens and theearth, that God also created
darkness.
Don (10:35):
It doesn't say that.
Tana (10:39):
But then where did the darkness come from?
Don (10:41):
Well, I mean, that's just the conundrum every human faces,
right?
Whether it's someone of faith orsomeone without faith.
Uh, if, if we don't have a Godthing that created this stuff,
then where'd it come from?
Tana (10:58):
Right.
Don (10:59):
How'd it get here?
It's a problem regardless ofwhether you believe in God or
not.
Tana (11:02):
Yeah, right.
Don (11:03):
So, um.
And I don't, I think that'sabove our pay grade on this
podcast to solve that eternalquestion.
Tana (11:11):
Right.
Cause even if you believe in thebig bang as the, like the source
of all stuff, like something hadto exist before that to create a
bang.
Don (11:22):
Yeah.
And I don't want to get in theweeds with that too much.
And the reason for that is I,that, that particular realm of
science and thought is notsomething that ever was all that
intriguing to me.
I don't know if it's because Igrew up as a Christian and so I
just didn't really care.
So I don't know.
(11:42):
There might be tons of theoriesand concepts that make a ton of
sense that I, I am uncertain of.
So I don't want to make it soundlike people that believe in, do
not believe in a God, they alsolack the exact same.
Tana (11:58):
Well, just to clarify, I wasn't like insinuating anything
bad about people who believe inthe Big Bang.
I was just saying, like, nomatter what you think about the
beginning of the universe, thereare questions about what began
when, what existed when,
Don (12:12):
and what started it.
Tana (12:13):
And can there be a beginning, because wouldn't
there have to be somethingbeforehand for something to
begin?
Don (12:18):
But even your problem, and we might be going down this path
too far, but you even just havethe same question of who created
God.
Or what created God,
Tana (12:28):
Where did God come from?
Don (12:29):
So even if we're debating about whether God created
darkness or all the heavens andall the earth or whatever, We
still are stuck with a firstaction problem.
And, uh, so.
Regardless, we're talking aboutevil.
Tana (12:45):
Woo! Well, and I think, I think the impression, I don't
know if anybody actually eversaid this growing up, but the, I
think the impression I got wasthat humans brought evil into
the world by eating from thetree.
Don (12:59):
Sure, because that's where it says sin entered.
Tana (13:01):
Right.
But again, the tree is named theknowledge of good and evil, and
so then they were like, oh, nowwe know these things.
And I know you've talked aboutthis before, we talked about
Garden Theology and about how...
Don (13:19):
Yeah, I think that was season one.
Tana (13:20):
Yeah, I think so.
And, uh, you talked about howyou think, you believe they
learned to judge poorly,basically.
Don (13:28):
Well, it's, it was more so that they graduated early.
Tana (13:31):
Right.
Don (13:32):
Right.
Like, that...
Uh, you know, Grandpa's 1965Corvette sitting in the garage
under a tarp is meant to be yourgraduation gift, and instead at
16 you go out and jump in andtake it for a joyride.
Um, and wreck it.
You know, I feel like that'skind of the garden story, right?
(13:52):
Is this, you know, not to makeit a Ferris Bueller's Day Off
type story, but it kind of is,right?
That, that, and it doesn't sayyou will never eat from the
tree.
It just says do not as of now.
Tana (14:08):
Yeah, that's true That's true.
Don (14:09):
And so I like to imagine and you can go back and listen
to this podcast it's gonna goway more in depth, but I like to
imagine it that God had intendedbecause it says God walked in
the garden with them, right?
And so this seems to be a storyof of God raising two children,
which can be awkward becausethey're intimate with each
(14:31):
other, but God raising some kidsin the ways of God to then go
out and be caretakers of theworld.
And instead, they, they decidethat they want to make decisions
for themselves, that they wantto move out on their own, that
they're tired of hearing theserules, and so they eat from the
(14:52):
tree.
And God even says, and I thinkthere's some sadness potentially
to be read here, but that nowyou'll have dominion over the
world instead of being agardener.
One that cares for the land,nurtures the land.
Instead, you're going to be inthis eternal battle with the
land for dominance.
Tana (15:12):
You know, it's interesting because that makes me think
about the prodigal son and howthere was an impatience for his
inheritance.
Don (15:20):
Yes.
Tana (15:21):
You know, and it's just kind of interesting that there's
this theme repeated of peopletrying to graduate early.
And I can't think of, I can'tthink immediately of other
instances, but I feel like thereare other instances of like...
I don't have this fully formedknowledge yet, and I'm gonna go
(15:42):
out and then I'm gonna make poordecisions.
Don (15:43):
Yeah.
I mean, we see it with Jesusstaying behind, uh, in Jerusalem
when his parents are going backhome.
Tana (15:50):
Oh, yeah.
Don (15:50):
And he is, I'm a, I'm a big boy now, and he stays at, at
the, at the temple to study withor to learn from the teachers
there.
So it's, It's actually just avery common story all of us
probably sometime in juniorhigh.
Tana (16:07):
Right.
Don (16:08):
We're like, I'm gonna pack a lunch.
Tana (16:10):
Right.
Don (16:10):
And I'm leaving.
I'm out.
Tana (16:12):
Yeah.
Don (16:12):
It'd be so, life would be so much better if I made my own
decisions instead of you know,whatever experience we're
having.
Yeah.
And I think that that's justkind of an a coming of age
Tana (16:24):
Sure.
Yeah.
Yeah, so you were talking aboutdefining evil.
Don (16:30):
Mm hmm
Tana (16:32):
Is there a way to do that properly through scripture?
Don (16:39):
Yeah, I think the way that scripture frames the idea of
evil is more along the lines ofdeliberate or intentional,
whatever language you want touse there, um, flauting through
(17:00):
the way that you live, function,talk, engage, God's way of
being.
So it's not, it's not, it's notlike, uh, you, you do something
and, uh, like, I don't know why,but this is always one of my
(17:21):
favorite examples for stuff islike you stub your toe and you
swear, right?
And I don't personally thinkthat profanity is actually a sin
unless you are doing it insomeone's general direction
that's causing them in some,otherwise it's just a word.
But let's say you stub your toe,you have this imagination that
profanity is a sin, you stubyour toe, you swear.
(17:44):
Well, you committed a sin, butit wasn't evil.
It wasn't, there was nopremeditation.
There was no determinants thatwas like, I'm flaunting this
moment.
It was a reaction to asituation, right?
A heated argument with a spouseor a friend, uh, or any partner,
right?
Like, that heated argument, if,if it just happens, it's not
(18:09):
healthy and it's not great, butit's not evil.
Evil is this, is more so this...
I know what the right thing todo is here.
I know the difference betweengood and evil, and I choose
evil.
That's, that's evil.
And it can be small things.
(18:30):
It doesn't even have to be hugethings.
It's just, you have decided inthat moment, you, it's like, um,
getting pulled over forspeeding.
And maybe you're doing three tofive miles or the speed limit
and you don't have a speedingticket and it's not because you
haven't been caught.
It's just because you don't tendto speed.
(18:51):
And you were listening to theAJFF podcast and you were so
into, so motivating that youlost track and you were speeding
and you got pulled over.
That's different than you'relike,"So, my time, my, and my
arrival someplace is moreimportant than the safety of
(19:12):
people on this road, moreimportant than other people's
ability to get someplace in thetime that the speed limit or
traffic laws allow them to." Andso you've determined that it's
more important for you, uh, tobe able to speed.
Right.
And therefore, and look.
(19:34):
We've all probably done it.
Yeah.
But you're deliberately breakinglaw.
You know what the speed limitis, and you decide you're better
than it, and it doesn't apply toyou in this moment.
Or it might apply to you.
And then the worst is when youget mad, when you get pulled
over and you're like, and youknew you were breaking the law,
and instead you're angry aboutit.
Tana (19:53):
Right.
So.
Yeah, we see that a lot ofsomeone who's been caught and
they just get angry at thepeople for catching them.
Don (19:59):
Right, like don't you have something better to do?
Aren't there more importantthings to do?
And it's like, maybe, but
Tana (20:05):
doesn't change the fact that you broke the law!
Don (20:07):
Right, and you knew what you were doing.
Tana (20:08):
Yeah, yeah.
So, what are some, do you, arethere specific Sorry, I'm
starting a bunch of differentquestions'cause I'm not exactly
sure what I wanna ask.
Don (20:25):
Well, can I add something else?
Yes, please.
So in Leviticus, all of theofferings, the operatory system,
Uhhuh, is built upon a system ofwhen you realize that you have
done something wrong.
Oh, right, yeah.
Then bring an offering.
Right?
There is no offering.
Tana (20:44):
Mm-hmm.
Don (20:45):
in Leviticus.
Tana (20:46):
Mm-hmm.
Don (20:46):
for intentional behavior.
Tana (20:51):
Intentional or unintentional?
Don (20:52):
Intentional.
There's no offerings, so if youdo something intentionally wrong
there is no offering.
Tana (20:58):
Oh, okay.
Don (21:00):
The only offerings available according to Leviticus
are when you come to understandthat something you had done was
wrong.
And therefore you reflect onsomething maybe you're sitting
around someone's like, you knowThat really upset me or hurt me
when you X Y Z and then you atthat moment take responsibility
(21:20):
for it except the You know
Tana (21:25):
the consequences?
Don (21:28):
That isn't the word I was gonna use but you you accept
that confrontation you you say,"Okay.
Yeah, you're right.
That was I was in the wrong andthen you would go and give an
offering and that offering, thatact of communion with God, going
back to God, having a meal withGod, and being like, God, I just
(21:48):
realized that I've been harmfulto my neighbor.
I just realized that I havecaused discomfort or sadness or
whatever to my neighbor and Ijust wanted you to know" and God
goes, it's okay.
Right?
That's the picture of theoffertory system in Leviticus.
(22:09):
Now, you know, deliberatelycutting down your neighbor's
flowers in their front yard.
Which one of our neighbors didthat to us?
That wasn't like an oops.
Right.
There isn't a thing where ourneighbor takes up an offering
and goes to God and says, mybad.
(22:30):
Now.
The thing is, is that it mighthappen on one day where the
neighbor realizes"that thatactually was kind of rude of me.
And now that I've gotten to knowmy neighbors, I wouldn't have
done that.
And now I'm thinking there'sreally never a time I should do
that." Now all of a sudden it issomething you can give an
(22:52):
offering for and God wouldforgive you.
Tana (22:56):
How?
Don (22:56):
Because you realize the depth.
of the thing that you had done.
But it was still intentional.
Right, but you realize now, ifyou had the information you had
today, then you wouldn't havedone it.
Right?
And so you're realizing that Ididn't have all the information.
This is, this is why I findJewish law beautiful.
(23:20):
The judge always wants to find areason.
To bring forgiveness andrestoration.
That's very different thanAmerican law.
American Justice system alwayswants to punish.
Tana (23:33):
Yeah.
Don (23:34):
Right?
Whereas Jewish law, it's why youknow Some of the laws that we
hear in the text You can't finda recording of them actually
following through with thepunishment in any of history.
Right.
And people go Oh, they justdidn't want to write it down.
No Israel wrote down everything.
Read the Bible.
There is some of their mostimportant figures have some
(23:55):
shady ass shit going on in theirbackground.
And they wrote it down.
Tana (23:59):
Yeah, yeah.
Don (24:01):
So to think that they just decided not to write this down
is kind of silly.
Yeah.
So again, this is the beauty ofrealizing that maybe thinking
earlier, I don't care if it'sagainst the rules, I'm gonna do
it.
And then as you get older, like,I mean, I can think of things
from my youth that I didn't carewas against the law or was
(24:23):
against, uh, people that I caredabout.
And now that I'm older, I lookback and go, man, if I knew then
what I know today, I would havenever done that.
And I would argue in thatmoment, I could go sit down,
have a meal with God and say,man, I, I grieve.
(24:44):
What happened at that point?
And God would say, it's okay.
Tana (24:50):
So if there wasn't an offeratory, um, if there wasn't
an offering for intentionalacts, what was, I'm assuming
then the response was one ofthese punishments you're saying
they never did.
Don (25:08):
I'm going to need you to re ask that, please.
Tana (25:10):
Sorry, uh...
Don (25:11):
Because it started as a statement and switched to a
question at the end that Iwasn't ready for.
Tana (25:15):
So you said there's no offering for an intentional sin.
Don (25:19):
Right.
Tana (25:21):
So, what happened to somebody who did that?
Well,
Don (25:28):
So it depends, right?
First of all, one thing I wantto be clear, I didn't say there
was no forgiveness forintentional sins.
Tana (25:34):
That's an important distinction.
Don (25:35):
Just no offertory.
Right.
No offering.
No sit down with God.
No meal with God.
But I would liken it more so tomoving from outlaw to law
abiding citizen.
Right.
That, you know, you read, uh, orit's, this is also just a number
(25:55):
of movies, TV shows, right.
where you have this person whois an outlaw and now they have a
legit business.
Tana (26:05):
Mm-hmm.
Don (26:05):
and they're trying to live life.
Tana (26:08):
It's a suicide squad! No, I'm just kidding.
Don (26:10):
I have no idea.
I'm not a DC fan.
So, um, so there's like,There's, there's always this
tension, right?
That you are someone who wasoutside the law, you weren't
part of the law abidingcommunity, something happens,
and you decide, I want tochange, and I want to be a part
(26:30):
of the law abiding community,and then you, one, you might
have to face the consequencesfor what you did, so, you know,
I don't, again, uh, SuicideSquad, not sure, but like, jail
time, whatever it might be, youget out of prison, and then, You
live a, uh, upright citizen'slife.
Tana (26:52):
Mm hmm.
Don (26:53):
And, and that's the difference, right?
Is that when we think about evilin the Bible, or we think about,
um, intentionally breaking thecommands of God, what you're
saying is, God's not my king.
Tana (27:11):
Mm hmm.
Don (27:11):
God is not my...
It's not the, the thing that Ibase the way I live my life on.
And God is seemingly okay withthat, but then, if you want to,
um, get back in God's goodgraces, so to speak, then you
(27:31):
have to come back around and belike, no, God actually is, you
know, the, the way I determinewhat is good, what is evil, how
to treat people.
And I might have to face theconsequences for my action when
I decide to strike out on myown.
But now that I'm back, I'm goingto do my best to follow those
(27:53):
rules.
Does that make sense?
Tana (27:56):
Yeah.
Don (27:58):
Because I think when we think about good evil, we think
about judgment and stuff.
We try to make it fit in our
Tana (28:05):
Mm.
Don (28:05):
And our idea of justice today.
Tana (28:07):
Sure.
Don (28:08):
Which, our idea of justice, unfortunately, though, there's a
lot of, uh, organizations andstuff that are moving towards
this and fighting for this, andit's not restorative.
Tana (28:17):
No.
Don (28:17):
Right?
And biblical justice isrestorative, and it's always
about people, individuals,reclaiming, uh, their
inheritance, so to speak, fromthis God.
Right, it's it's back to yourprodigal son, right?
How does your prodigal son thinkof themselves?
(28:38):
I was dead I left you and Ithink it's interesting that he
imagines he's dead becausethat's what he wishes for the
father I was dead I've sinnedagainst you and against heaven.
Can I come back and be a lesserperson in your family?
Right, well In the U.
(28:59):
S., in our justice system, theanswer from the father would be
like, Yeah, that's fine, overthere's the broom and the mop,
start cleaning.
Tana (29:06):
Yeah.
Don (29:07):
Um, and someday, I might, I might love you again, whatever,
right?
Tana (29:11):
Right, yeah.
Don (29:12):
Um, but in Jewish concept of justice, biblical concept of
justice, the answer is, No, youwalked away and separated
yourself from this family.
You just came back because yourealized...
That what you did was harmful,it broke relationships, it ended
(29:33):
meaningful X, Y, and Z.
And because you came back, I'mgoing to say...
You're, you're, you're back inthe family.
You've been restored.
And here's the kicker, whichupsets the brother: even his
inheritance is restored.
He blew the inheritance he took,but by being restored back in
(29:55):
the family, he's going to gainanother inheritance when the
father passes.
Tana (30:02):
Yeah.
Don (30:02):
And that's what upsets the older brother.
And we could go into quite indepth about the older brother in
that, but I don't think it'spertinent to this discussion.
Tana (30:10):
There's lots of rabbit trails we could follow with
this.
Don (30:13):
Indeed.
Tana (30:14):
Yeah.
I think that's, I think that's avery, It's a very difficult
thing for, I would say, peoplein the United States with our
particular society and the waywe've set up justice and the way
we discuss the Bible even.
And it's, first of all, I thinkwe Christians in general kind of
(30:37):
throw around the word evil alittle bit too loosely.
Don (30:41):
Oh yeah.
Tana (30:42):
You know, everything that they don't like is evil.
Don (30:44):
Yeah.
Tana (30:47):
And then secondly, there's, like you said, there's
no, uh, There's, there's not alot of restorative justice
happening, even within families.
You know, it's, you're disowned,that's it.
Um, and that is, that is, thatis very sad because what you've
(31:11):
discussed is that, you know,God, you're saying that there's
all these different things that,uh, even though there's not an
offering, it doesn't mean it'snot forgivable.
Don (31:20):
Sure.
And I want to, you know, and Iknow you don't mean this because
I'm estranged from my parents,uh, because my parents committed
from my perspective, atrocitiestowards me.
Uh, and though I would say Ihave forgiven them, I'm not
interested in a relationshipwith them.
And so there still seems fromthe outside to be severed ties
(31:43):
from that.
But I think, I think you'reright.
I think we tend to, well, andit's, it's the beauty of the
scene in the garden, right?
It's not something that you justsimply know, which is something
that makes me upset with A lotof like the Christian teachings
(32:04):
I was raised with was that insome way that we inherently know
the difference between right andwrong.
Um, or that when you become aChristian, you, something gets
downloaded into your heart andsoul that helps you tell the
difference between good andwrong.
And the truth is, no, it'scomplicated.
(32:24):
Life is complicated.
Tana (32:25):
It's very complicated.
Don (32:26):
And we can point to obvious situations and be like, you
should know better.
But the number of times thatI've been in experiences and
have participated in things thatseemed okay, neutral, or even
good, and then I walked away andlearned something new or just
mature, and I go, whoa, thatwas,
Tana (32:49):
Right.
Yeah.
Don (32:50):
that was harmful.
Yeah, that was bad.
And so.
To me, this is kind of what'sgoing on in the garden is that
God was telling humanity, I willwalk with you as long as it
takes for you to come to a placewhere you're healthy in your
(33:11):
ability to judge well.
Tana (33:16):
Yeah.
Don (33:16):
And we left early.
We were like, oh man, thiscourse is taking too long and
I'm out.
I think I got the gist of this.
I'm good.
Tana (33:25):
Yeah.
You said something earlier thatsparked a thought and then quite
honestly I was staring at thepainting behind you and I
immediately lost what the thingwas I was gonna, I was gonna say
and then the rest of what youwere saying didn't spark that
same thought so.
(33:46):
Darn it.
Don (33:47):
That was a very long way to say, you were interesting for a
half second.
Tana (33:55):
I wanted to graduate early from this conversation.
Don (33:59):
Well I have a question.
For me, my faith has gone manyplaces.
Not always.
And maybe not even currently tothe places that it, I was raised
for it to be.
Tana (34:17):
Mm hmm.
Don (34:20):
And for me the, this idea of God as king and lawmaker
Tana (34:25):
Mm hmm.
Don (34:26):
When just stated, does not feel great.
Tana (34:29):
Mm hmm.
Don (34:31):
It doesn't even resonate with me.
Tana (34:33):
Mm hmm.
Don (34:35):
But, well I shouldn't say but I think a lot of our
listeners who are going throughdeconstruction, who are
wrestling with exactly what theBible means and what the laws in
the Bible actually, what powervalue they add and the God that
(34:55):
they grew up being told about orthat they converted to later,
whatever it might be.
As they've deconstructed, doesthis, does this discussion even
still matter?
And I'm not just talking about,like, on a moral basis, like, I
think, you know, most peoplewould argue we should strive for
(35:18):
good morality regardless ofbelief system.
Tana (35:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Don (35:22):
I'm talking about when we define it using the Bible,
should this even still mattertoday?
Like, if you're going throughdeconstruction, you're not sure
what you think about God.
Does any of the stuff that wetalked about, from what the
Bible says, from what the Bibleteaches, what the Bible expects,
the Leviticus offering system,does any of that matter?
Tana (35:47):
I feel like that is a very large...
Question that we could dedicatean entire other podcast episode
to.
Don (35:54):
This is aJFF code for, I don't want to answer this right
now.
Because I do it all the timetoo.
I think we can probably doseveral podcasts on this one.
Tana (36:04):
No, I think, I think it's, I think it's a very large
question, but I think it wouldkind of take us down a different
route.
Um, and I think what I kind ofwant to get back to is,"does it
fundamentally change our view ofGod if God created evil?" Uh,
(36:32):
and why would God create evil?
Don (36:36):
Well, I think this goes back to my statement that I'm
not sure that it was that Godone day got out of bed on the
wrong side, was in a pissy moodand was like, you know what?
I think I am gonna causecalamity, right?
I think that's how God has beentaught, right?
(36:57):
That God is grumpy, moody,whatever, and if we don't
appease that God, that God thencrushes us.
Yeah.
And I don't see that God in theBible, unless I'm wearing the
interpretive lens offundamentalist Christianity.
Right.
(37:19):
So, does it change for me what Ithink about God, that God
created evil?
I would say no.
In fact, what it does for mewhen I have a healthy
perspective of it, it says whatGod created was Micah 6.
(37:40):
8.
Humility, mercy, compassion,love, and generosity towards
neighbor.
Right?
At least the system that Israelbelieved in and attributed to
God was this system that waslike the poor's voice matters
just as much as the affluence.
That a person who's been cut offfrom well being, a widow, right?
(38:03):
That they're to be taken care ofby the community.
An orphan who is cut off fromwell being should be cared for
by the community that there'sall these rules some of them
that we look at today and we gothat's messed up But if we
understood in its context, wewould find that it was actually
protecting people, right andwhen I read that I go, That
(38:29):
means that if someone, if, if agroup of people, the Israelites
in this case, uh, and eventuallyChristians, um, adhere to those
and say, that's the way I wantto live, because that's a really
good way to live.
The people who are against that,who hear that and see that and
go, no, don't take care of thewidow, let them die.
(38:54):
Orphans who caress.
If their parents didn't lovethem, we don't love them.
Mm.
That's evil.
Tana (38:59):
Mm-hmm.
Don (39:00):
by God creating such a, and again, I keep saying God,
creating, but Israel'sunderstanding of how the world
should work, that they attributeto God in that creation of those
rules and laws and ideas ofbeing on this planet, it, it
makes evil apparent.
(39:24):
And so I don't, when I thinkabout this, did God create evil?
I would say yes, only becausethe systems that Israel believed
to be of God were so good and sovaluable that the people that
were against it are terriblepeople.
Tana (39:41):
So it sounds almost like, bear with me for this for a
second, almost like in order tocreate good, it's opposite must
also exist.
So like if we just were, if Godjust was, everything just was,
(40:03):
we wouldn't have a concept thatit was good.
Don (40:06):
Correct.
Tana (40:07):
If there was not an opposite of it to be juxtaposed.
So it's almost like to me, it'salmost like, um, I'm so bad at
chemistry, but I feel likethere's something, I'm good at
chemical formulas, not good atchemistry.
But, uh, like, Like you createsomething and then there's like
a by product, you know?
Don (40:26):
Yeah.
I think water is a by product ofa lot of chemical combinations.
Tana (40:31):
Right.
So like, it feels almost like,you know, like God's like, Oh, I
want this good thing.
And then it's also going tocreate this other thing, you
know?
But it also makes me feel likethen the capacity for each must
have also existed within God.
I'm waiting for the lightningstrike.
(40:52):
Okay.
Don (40:53):
I, I mean, again, I'm, I'm not, I'm not certain
philosophically if that'snecessary.
Hmm.
Right.
Tana (41:06):
What?
Don (41:07):
The look on your face is, I wasn't sure if you, it looked
like you might have hadsomething else to say.
Tana (41:11):
No, I was just listening.
Agreeing.
Don (41:13):
So, I mean, it's like, if I, if I create light, that means
that I've also created darkness.
I don't ever have to be in thedarkness.
I don't like I can always justremain in the light.
Tana (41:31):
That's interesting.
Don (41:32):
So I don't, I don't know.
Tana (41:34):
That's very interesting.
Don (41:35):
And to me, that's a, that's an interesting question or
assumption.
And I just, I don't, I mean, I'dlove feedback from our
listeners, uh, on how you feelabout that or what you think
about that.
Tana (41:47):
That actually, no, that is very interesting.
Cause I'm thinking, well, if I,if I enter a dark room and I
realize it's already dark tobegin with, but, um, I turn on a
light, there's going to beshadows cast by different things
in the room because I broughtout a light and my intention
wasn't to create darkness.
(42:10):
It was to illuminate.
That's very interesting.
And I almost feel like thismight be too much of a stretch,
I don't know, but I almost feellike we get that now where
there's people who try to creategood things.
(42:32):
And then it just like, I eventhink about like somebody who's
like, Oh, I'm just going tocreate this inspiring content on
a social media platform.
And then it brings out trolls.
Like their intention was not tocreate trolls.
Don (42:46):
Yeah.
And, and here's something else.
If we are taking the Bible atface value, like historically,
God doesn't give any laws untilMount Sinai.
Right.
Which in history is about 6, 000years ago, right?
(43:06):
Like if we tried our best toalign what the Bible says with
historical process, it's onlyabout 6, 000 years ago.
Yeah.
If like me, you hold that theplanet is, you know, a couple
billion years old, that's arelatively brand new concept.
Yeah.
And so I think you could look atthe Sinai experience of Israel.
(43:33):
They just came out of slavery.
They just came out from thisplace of oppression.
And they're retelling this storyprobably generations later
because it's not, this isn'tbeing recorded live, uh, when it
happens.
But as they're remembering whattook place on Mount Sinai, I
think there's this beautifuljuxtaposition of we can either
(43:56):
look back at Egypt wheresuffering and harm and the
treatment of other humans was,was horrible.
It was abusive.
Um, and they justified itthrough really unhealthy ways.
Or we could look to the peak ofthis mountain that demonstrates
power and strength and imaginedthat the choice from that was,
(44:23):
mercy, justice, and love.
And that it's through mercy,justice, and love that power
should come, not throughoppression, devastation and
murder like it was in Egypt.
And so I think you can look andIsrael wrote laws Um, compelled
(44:48):
by a deity or not, the laws thatwere written down were a way for
Israel to bring lightness totheir own dark history and to
keep them in the light so theydidn't stray off of it and
contribute to dark behavior thatthey had learned earlier in
(45:09):
life.
And when I think about it inthose terms.
It's then really beautiful.
Yeah.
I think what we do is we readthe garden story, even though
Israel meant it as a parable,not literal.
Tana (45:24):
Mm hmm.
Don (45:24):
And even though we read it as a parable and not literal, we
still attribute it literally.
Tana (45:29):
Yeah.
Don (45:30):
That from the beginning, in the garden, God created good and
evil.
Tana (45:33):
Yeah.
Don (45:35):
Well, that's, that's adding literalness to a parable.
That we need to be careful of.
Tana (45:41):
Yeah, fair.
Don (45:43):
And so instead what I would argue is Israel developed a
system that confronted thedarkness in this world with a
light.
They called that light Yahweh.
They called that light Torah.
They called that light, um,loving your neighbor.
And we can look at history Andthis small nation who has been
(46:08):
accosted and enslaved and harmedand tried to be forced into
extinction has used those waysof thinking about the world and
treating others to still surviveand continue to bring light to
the world.
Which is why the Bible is sointerested always in taking the
(46:31):
light to the world.
Let your light shine through.
Bring light into darkness.
All of this language is becauseIsrael imagines the way of God
will always bring light.
Tana (46:45):
Yeah.
Don (46:46):
And therefore, call out darkness.
Yeah.
Tana (46:50):
Well, I feel like that's a beautiful sentiment and a great
place to stop.
Unless you have any finalthoughts you want to offer.
Don (46:59):
No, you're the boss, and if you say we stop, we're stopping.
Tana (47:03):
Okay, how far can I extend this I'm the boss thing?
Don (47:08):
I'm pretty sure you've extended it across all venues of
our life.
So,
Tana (47:16):
All right, got to go.
I have a lot of things to tellDon to do.
Don (47:18):
People, I'm living in the dark.
Tana (47:22):
Oh, so, uh, thank you all for joining us.
And if you want to find us inbetween podcast episodes, you
can find us on all the socials.
Just look for Ancient JesusFuture Faith.
We'll be there, or you can checkus out at AJFFpodcast.
com and we'll see you next time.
Don (47:40):
Bye.
Hello, and welcome to Ancient Jesus Future Faith.
I am one of your hosts, TanaSchiewer, and I'm here with Don
Schiewer.
Hello.
And today we want to talk aboutthe concept of evil.
(Don (00:21):
oooooooo) That was our fancy side effect, uh, button.
Side effect?
Side effect.
Sound effect.
Don (00:30):
I do, I do have side effects, like nausea, pain in
the neck.
Tana (00:37):
You should record that sound and sell it, honey.
Uh, yes.
Anyway, evil.
Yay! So, um, I wanted to talkabout this topic because it is
something that has always been alittle bit of a, um, perplexing
(00:59):
thing to me.
Sure.
And for me, that's because...
Well, actually, if you don'tmind, I'll just read the Bible
verse that always kind of makesme think about this.
Okay, it's Genesis 2, 9, and itsays,"Out of the ground Adonai,
(01:22):
God, caused to grow every treepleasing in appearance and good
for food, including the tree oflife in the middle of the garden
and the tree of knowledge ofgood and evil." Uh, and that's
the complete Jewish Bible I wasreading from.
So, that is the first time theword evil is mentioned in the
Bible.
(01:42):
It's pretty early.
That's fairly early.
I mean, Genesis 2, in the earlypart, and it says, the tree of
the knowledge of good and evil.
There's no description of, um,evil being created or
spontaneously forming oranything.
It's...
It's...
That, to me, I read that, and Ithink, oh, the assumption there
(02:06):
is evil already exists.
Right?
Don (02:09):
Yes.
Tana (02:11):
And, up until then, everything is, um, just, you
know, God creating things,having the earth bring forth
things, and so to me that meansit's, it's already there.
It doesn't specifically say.
(02:31):
That God created evil, but ifthe basic understanding is that
God created everything...
Don (02:40):
Well, the Bible does say God created evil.
Tana (02:43):
Oh, it does?
Where?
Don (02:45):
Isaiah 45 7.
Tana (02:47):
Isaiah 45 7.
Do you have it there?
Do you want to read it or do youwant me to pull it up?
Don (02:54):
Uh, you can pull it up.
Tana (02:56):
Say it again,
Don (02:57):
Isaiah 45 7.
Tana (02:59):
45 7.
I'm glad you repeated thatbecause I remembered it
completely incorrectly.
Okay, Isaiah 45 7.
"I form light, I createdarkness, I make well being, I
create woe, I, Adonai, do allthese things."
Don (03:14):
Yeah, the word woe is the same word as evil.
Tana (03:18):
So.
Okay, so it does say God createdevil.
Don (03:23):
Yes.
Tana (03:23):
So what's up with that?
That's, that's my big question.
Don (03:28):
Well, I think first of all, we have to decide what is the
definition of evil that is, youknow, there's, you know, the
tradition of the first usage ofsomething is when you get the
definition for it.
But this is a tough one to get adefinition from that.
Yeah.
From that verse because it'sjust spoken as a category.
(03:52):
Right.
And so.
So, if we're looking at it, uh,it's the tree of knowledge of
good and evil, which just seemsto mean the ability to
differentiate, um, twocategories.
Tana (04:09):
Sure.
Don (04:10):
Right?
And, and I think that that'swhere maybe we begin with
thinking about it.
So, we have added over...
centuries, millennia, all theseother things to what it is that
makes something evil.
Tana (04:28):
Mm hmm.
Don (04:29):
And I'm not certain that that verse is talking about just
the Jeffrey Dahmers of theworld.
Tana (04:39):
Mm hmm.
Don (04:41):
Or just the racist or bigots of the world.
But that this is It's reallyabout the ability to understand
what gives life and what bringsdeath.
Evil brings death, um, justice,mercy, and love, uh, Micah 6, 8,
(05:08):
right?
Um, that brings life.
And so...
This picture or this, uh,parable, this story that's being
told about the garden is that insome way, this tree, uh, the
fruit of the tree representshumanity's ability to understand
(05:36):
the difference.
Like, I think if we look aroundtoday, there are things that
most people are in agreementabout that it's evil.
But there's a lot of things thatpeople debate.
What is good and what is evil,or what brings life and what
(05:57):
brings death.
Some people will even arguethings that literally bring
death are positives as a whole.
So, so I think that's where,where we have to start with the
idea of evil.
So what does that do?
Like, is that helpful for you tothink about?
Is that, like, does that undoeven some of the conversation
(06:19):
you wanted to have today?
Tana (06:20):
I think, I don't, I don't think it undoes it.
I think what I'm trying to getat is what...
I, I think if you asked mostChristians about evil, it's
(06:44):
like, there's this, I don'tthink a lot of people have
thought about it, honestly, andI think there's this idea of
mostly from all these extrabiblical sources, right, of like
the fallen angel, Lucifer, youknow, Satan fell from heaven and
it's like, it's almost likeevil, like was created
independently of God.
(07:05):
Right?
Don (07:06):
Sure.
I think, I think it's reallyuncomfortable for us if we
believe in a supreme being thatis love incarnate, not even
incarnate, but just loveembodied.
Tana (07:21):
Yeah.
Don (07:22):
That it's hard then to be like, and that, that being also
create evil.
Tana (07:27):
Right.
So I do think a definition of itwould be very, very helpful.
'cause I don't think we canescape the idea that if it
exists, God must have createdit.
If that's your biblical, if likeif that's your worldview, that
God created everything,
Don (07:45):
mm-hmm
Tana (07:46):
then you either have to say, God created evil, or you
have to admit that somethingelse existed with God.
Do you know what I mean?
Don (07:53):
Well, I think it, I think we can even go more nuanced than
that though.
Right?
Like, if I create a law, I'venow created more than just a
law, what else have I created?
Tana (08:12):
I don't know, like punishments for that law?
Don (08:15):
Yeah, even without, like, unless obviously within the law
I list what the punishments arefor failing it, I've created two
things regardless of anythingelse.
I make a rule or a law, I'vecreated two things.
Let's say it's a rule instead ofa law.
Tana (08:28):
Okay.
Don (08:29):
Rule followers?
Rule breakers.
Tana (08:32):
Okay.
Don (08:33):
Now I haven't done anything.
Right.
Like I haven't caused people tobe rule followers or rule
breakers.
I've only created a rule.
Uh, and, and instantly thenpeople are either one of those
two categories.
So I think that's probably moreof the nuance that at least even
(08:56):
Isaiah seems to be touching onthat.
I think.
you know, ancient thinkers aboutGod would have, right?
It says in Isaiah, I createlight and I create darkness.
Well, there's nowhere in thetext, in the creation narrative,
where darkness is actually oneof the things created, unless
you want to argue the Spirit ofGod hovering over the Tohu
(09:19):
Vavohu, which is the formlessand deep.
But even then, it doesn't saythat God created the formless
and deep.
It just says that the Spirit ofGod was hovering over that.
Tana (09:28):
Yeah, I guess he said, let there be light, right?
He didn't say let there be lightand darkness.
Don (09:31):
But the moment that there is light, now it is defining
itself against the darkness.
Tana (09:40):
Darkness.
Don (09:41):
And therefore, by creating light in a dark space, it has
now created both things that arein the light and things that are
outside the light.
And what is it?
What do we call things thataren't in the light, what we
call them in the dark, andtherefore...
do you see what I'm saying?
So just philosophically, you canmake a case that by creating
(10:04):
light
Tana (10:05):
mm-hmm.
Don (10:05):
You've also then immediately, you've created the
need for a category of darkness.
Tana (10:12):
Okay, so it says,"In the beginning, God created the
heavens and the earth.
The earth was unformed and void.
Darkness was on the face of thedeep, and the Spirit of God
hovered over the surface of thewater." So I would infer that if
God created the heavens and theearth, that God also created
darkness.
Don (10:35):
It doesn't say that.
Tana (10:39):
But then where did the darkness come from?
Don (10:41):
Well, I mean, that's just the conundrum every human faces,
right?
Whether it's someone of faith orsomeone without faith.
Uh, if, if we don't have a Godthing that created this stuff,
then where'd it come from?
Tana (10:58):
Right.
Don (10:59):
How'd it get here?
It's a problem regardless ofwhether you believe in God or
not.
Tana (11:02):
Yeah, right.
Don (11:03):
So, um.
And I don't, I think that'sabove our pay grade on this
podcast to solve that eternalquestion.
Tana (11:11):
Right.
Cause even if you believe in thebig bang as the, like the source
of all stuff, like something hadto exist before that to create a
bang.
Don (11:22):
Yeah.
And I don't want to get in theweeds with that too much.
And the reason for that is I,that, that particular realm of
science and thought is notsomething that ever was all that
intriguing to me.
I don't know if it's because Igrew up as a Christian and so I
just didn't really care.
So I don't know.
(11:42):
There might be tons of theoriesand concepts that make a ton of
sense that I, I am uncertain of.
So I don't want to make it soundlike people that believe in, do
not believe in a God, they alsolack the exact same.
Tana (11:58):
Well, just to clarify, I wasn't like insinuating anything
bad about people who believe inthe Big Bang.
I was just saying, like, nomatter what you think about the
beginning of the universe, thereare questions about what began
when, what existed when,
Don (12:12):
and what started it.
Tana (12:13):
And can there be a beginning, because wouldn't
there have to be somethingbeforehand for something to
begin?
Don (12:18):
But even your problem, and we might be going down this path
too far, but you even just havethe same question of who created
God.
Or what created God,
Tana (12:28):
Where did God come from?
Don (12:29):
So even if we're debating about whether God created
darkness or all the heavens andall the earth or whatever, We
still are stuck with a firstaction problem.
And, uh, so.
Regardless, we're talking aboutevil.
Tana (12:45):
Woo! Well, and I think, I think the impression, I don't
know if anybody actually eversaid this growing up, but the, I
think the impression I got wasthat humans brought evil into
the world by eating from thetree.
Don (12:59):
Sure, because that's where it says sin entered.
Tana (13:01):
Right.
But again, the tree is named theknowledge of good and evil, and
so then they were like, oh, nowwe know these things.
And I know you've talked aboutthis before, we talked about
Garden Theology and about how...
Don (13:19):
Yeah, I think that was season one.
Tana (13:20):
Yeah, I think so.
And, uh, you talked about howyou think, you believe they
learned to judge poorly,basically.
Don (13:28):
Well, it's, it was more so that they graduated early.
Tana (13:31):
Right.
Don (13:32):
Right.
Like, that...
Uh, you know, Grandpa's 1965Corvette sitting in the garage
under a tarp is meant to be yourgraduation gift, and instead at
16 you go out and jump in andtake it for a joyride.
Um, and wreck it.
You know, I feel like that'skind of the garden story, right?
(13:52):
Is this, you know, not to makeit a Ferris Bueller's Day Off
type story, but it kind of is,right?
That, that, and it doesn't sayyou will never eat from the
tree.
It just says do not as of now.
Tana (14:08):
Yeah, that's true That's true.
Don (14:09):
And so I like to imagine and you can go back and listen
to this podcast it's gonna goway more in depth, but I like to
imagine it that God had intendedbecause it says God walked in
the garden with them, right?
And so this seems to be a storyof of God raising two children,
which can be awkward becausethey're intimate with each
(14:31):
other, but God raising some kidsin the ways of God to then go
out and be caretakers of theworld.
And instead, they, they decidethat they want to make decisions
for themselves, that they wantto move out on their own, that
they're tired of hearing theserules, and so they eat from the
(14:52):
tree.
And God even says, and I thinkthere's some sadness potentially
to be read here, but that nowyou'll have dominion over the
world instead of being agardener.
One that cares for the land,nurtures the land.
Instead, you're going to be inthis eternal battle with the
land for dominance.
Tana (15:12):
You know, it's interesting because that makes me think
about the prodigal son and howthere was an impatience for his
inheritance.
Don (15:20):
Yes.
Tana (15:21):
You know, and it's just kind of interesting that there's
this theme repeated of peopletrying to graduate early.
And I can't think of, I can'tthink immediately of other
instances, but I feel like thereare other instances of like...
I don't have this fully formedknowledge yet, and I'm gonna go
(15:42):
out and then I'm gonna make poordecisions.
Don (15:43):
Yeah.
I mean, we see it with Jesusstaying behind, uh, in Jerusalem
when his parents are going backhome.
Tana (15:50):
Oh, yeah.
Don (15:50):
And he is, I'm a, I'm a big boy now, and he stays at, at
the, at the temple to study withor to learn from the teachers
there.
So it's, It's actually just avery common story all of us
probably sometime in juniorhigh.
Tana (16:07):
Right.
Don (16:08):
We're like, I'm gonna pack a lunch.
Tana (16:10):
Right.
Don (16:10):
And I'm leaving.
I'm out.
Tana (16:12):
Yeah.
Don (16:12):
It'd be so, life would be so much better if I made my own
decisions instead of you know,whatever experience we're
having.
Yeah.
And I think that that's justkind of an a coming of age
Tana (16:24):
Sure.
Yeah.
Yeah, so you were talking aboutdefining evil.
Don (16:30):
Mm hmm
Tana (16:32):
Is there a way to do that properly through scripture?
Don (16:39):
Yeah, I think the way that scripture frames the idea of
evil is more along the lines ofdeliberate or intentional,
whatever language you want touse there, um, flauting through
(17:00):
the way that you live, function,talk, engage, God's way of
being.
So it's not, it's not, it's notlike, uh, you, you do something
and, uh, like, I don't know why,but this is always one of my
(17:21):
favorite examples for stuff islike you stub your toe and you
swear, right?
And I don't personally thinkthat profanity is actually a sin
unless you are doing it insomeone's general direction
that's causing them in some,otherwise it's just a word.
But let's say you stub your toe,you have this imagination that
profanity is a sin, you stubyour toe, you swear.
(17:44):
Well, you committed a sin, butit wasn't evil.
It wasn't, there was nopremeditation.
There was no determinants thatwas like, I'm flaunting this
moment.
It was a reaction to asituation, right?
A heated argument with a spouseor a friend, uh, or any partner,
right?
Like, that heated argument, if,if it just happens, it's not
(18:09):
healthy and it's not great, butit's not evil.
Evil is this, is more so this...
I know what the right thing todo is here.
I know the difference betweengood and evil, and I choose
evil.
That's, that's evil.
And it can be small things.
(18:30):
It doesn't even have to be hugethings.
It's just, you have decided inthat moment, you, it's like, um,
getting pulled over forspeeding.
And maybe you're doing three tofive miles or the speed limit
and you don't have a speedingticket and it's not because you
haven't been caught.
It's just because you don't tendto speed.
(18:51):
And you were listening to theAJFF podcast and you were so
into, so motivating that youlost track and you were speeding
and you got pulled over.
That's different than you'relike,"So, my time, my, and my
arrival someplace is moreimportant than the safety of
(19:12):
people on this road, moreimportant than other people's
ability to get someplace in thetime that the speed limit or
traffic laws allow them to." Andso you've determined that it's
more important for you, uh, tobe able to speed.
Right.
And therefore, and look.
(19:34):
We've all probably done it.
Yeah.
But you're deliberately breakinglaw.
You know what the speed limitis, and you decide you're better
than it, and it doesn't apply toyou in this moment.
Or it might apply to you.
And then the worst is when youget mad, when you get pulled
over and you're like, and youknew you were breaking the law,
and instead you're angry aboutit.
Tana (19:53):
Right.
So.
Yeah, we see that a lot ofsomeone who's been caught and
they just get angry at thepeople for catching them.
Don (19:59):
Right, like don't you have something better to do?
Aren't there more importantthings to do?
And it's like, maybe, but
Tana (20:05):
doesn't change the fact that you broke the law!
Don (20:07):
Right, and you knew what you were doing.
Tana (20:08):
Yeah, yeah.
So, what are some, do you, arethere specific Sorry, I'm
starting a bunch of differentquestions'cause I'm not exactly
sure what I wanna ask.
Don (20:25):
Well, can I add something else?
Yes, please.
So in Leviticus, all of theofferings, the operatory system,
Uhhuh, is built upon a system ofwhen you realize that you have
done something wrong.
Oh, right, yeah.
Then bring an offering.
Right?
There is no offering.
Tana (20:44):
Mm-hmm.
Don (20:45):
in Leviticus.
Tana (20:46):
Mm-hmm.
Don (20:46):
for intentional behavior.
Tana (20:51):
Intentional or unintentional?
Don (20:52):
Intentional.
There's no offerings, so if youdo something intentionally wrong
there is no offering.
Tana (20:58):
Oh, okay.
Don (21:00):
The only offerings available according to Leviticus
are when you come to understandthat something you had done was
wrong.
And therefore you reflect onsomething maybe you're sitting
around someone's like, you knowThat really upset me or hurt me
when you X Y Z and then you atthat moment take responsibility
(21:20):
for it except the You know
Tana (21:25):
the consequences?
Don (21:28):
That isn't the word I was gonna use but you you accept
that confrontation you you say,"Okay.
Yeah, you're right.
That was I was in the wrong andthen you would go and give an
offering and that offering, thatact of communion with God, going
back to God, having a meal withGod, and being like, God, I just
(21:48):
realized that I've been harmfulto my neighbor.
I just realized that I havecaused discomfort or sadness or
whatever to my neighbor and Ijust wanted you to know" and God
goes, it's okay.
Right?
That's the picture of theoffertory system in Leviticus.
(22:09):
Now, you know, deliberatelycutting down your neighbor's
flowers in their front yard.
Which one of our neighbors didthat to us?
That wasn't like an oops.
Right.
There isn't a thing where ourneighbor takes up an offering
and goes to God and says, mybad.
(22:30):
Now.
The thing is, is that it mighthappen on one day where the
neighbor realizes"that thatactually was kind of rude of me.
And now that I've gotten to knowmy neighbors, I wouldn't have
done that.
And now I'm thinking there'sreally never a time I should do
that." Now all of a sudden it issomething you can give an
(22:52):
offering for and God wouldforgive you.
Tana (22:56):
How?
Don (22:56):
Because you realize the depth.
of the thing that you had done.
But it was still intentional.
Right, but you realize now, ifyou had the information you had
today, then you wouldn't havedone it.
Right?
And so you're realizing that Ididn't have all the information.
This is, this is why I findJewish law beautiful.
(23:20):
The judge always wants to find areason.
To bring forgiveness andrestoration.
That's very different thanAmerican law.
American Justice system alwayswants to punish.
Tana (23:33):
Yeah.
Don (23:34):
Right?
Whereas Jewish law, it's why youknow Some of the laws that we
hear in the text You can't finda recording of them actually
following through with thepunishment in any of history.
Right.
And people go Oh, they justdidn't want to write it down.
No Israel wrote down everything.
Read the Bible.
There is some of their mostimportant figures have some
(23:55):
shady ass shit going on in theirbackground.
And they wrote it down.
Tana (23:59):
Yeah, yeah.
Don (24:01):
So to think that they just decided not to write this down
is kind of silly.
Yeah.
So again, this is the beauty ofrealizing that maybe thinking
earlier, I don't care if it'sagainst the rules, I'm gonna do
it.
And then as you get older, like,I mean, I can think of things
from my youth that I didn't carewas against the law or was
(24:23):
against, uh, people that I caredabout.
And now that I'm older, I lookback and go, man, if I knew then
what I know today, I would havenever done that.
And I would argue in thatmoment, I could go sit down,
have a meal with God and say,man, I, I grieve.
(24:44):
What happened at that point?
And God would say, it's okay.
Tana (24:50):
So if there wasn't an offeratory, um, if there wasn't
an offering for intentionalacts, what was, I'm assuming
then the response was one ofthese punishments you're saying
they never did.
Don (25:08):
I'm going to need you to re ask that, please.
Tana (25:10):
Sorry, uh...
Don (25:11):
Because it started as a statement and switched to a
question at the end that Iwasn't ready for.
Tana (25:15):
So you said there's no offering for an intentional sin.
Don (25:19):
Right.
Tana (25:21):
So, what happened to somebody who did that?
Well,
Don (25:28):
So it depends, right?
First of all, one thing I wantto be clear, I didn't say there
was no forgiveness forintentional sins.
Tana (25:34):
That's an important distinction.
Don (25:35):
Just no offertory.
Right.
No offering.
No sit down with God.
No meal with God.
But I would liken it more so tomoving from outlaw to law
abiding citizen.
Right.
That, you know, you read, uh, orit's, this is also just a number
(25:55):
of movies, TV shows, right.
where you have this person whois an outlaw and now they have a
legit business.
Tana (26:05):
Mm-hmm.
Don (26:05):
and they're trying to live life.
Tana (26:08):
It's a suicide squad! No, I'm just kidding.
Don (26:10):
I have no idea.
I'm not a DC fan.
So, um, so there's like,There's, there's always this
tension, right?
That you are someone who wasoutside the law, you weren't
part of the law abidingcommunity, something happens,
and you decide, I want tochange, and I want to be a part
(26:30):
of the law abiding community,and then you, one, you might
have to face the consequencesfor what you did, so, you know,
I don't, again, uh, SuicideSquad, not sure, but like, jail
time, whatever it might be, youget out of prison, and then, You
live a, uh, upright citizen'slife.
Tana (26:52):
Mm hmm.
Don (26:53):
And, and that's the difference, right?
Is that when we think about evilin the Bible, or we think about,
um, intentionally breaking thecommands of God, what you're
saying is, God's not my king.
Tana (27:11):
Mm hmm.
Don (27:11):
God is not my...
It's not the, the thing that Ibase the way I live my life on.
And God is seemingly okay withthat, but then, if you want to,
um, get back in God's goodgraces, so to speak, then you
(27:31):
have to come back around and belike, no, God actually is, you
know, the, the way I determinewhat is good, what is evil, how
to treat people.
And I might have to face theconsequences for my action when
I decide to strike out on myown.
But now that I'm back, I'm goingto do my best to follow those
(27:53):
rules.
Does that make sense?
Tana (27:56):
Yeah.
Don (27:58):
Because I think when we think about good evil, we think
about judgment and stuff.
We try to make it fit in our
Tana (28:05):
Mm.
Don (28:05):
And our idea of justice today.
Tana (28:07):
Sure.
Don (28:08):
Which, our idea of justice, unfortunately, though, there's a
lot of, uh, organizations andstuff that are moving towards
this and fighting for this, andit's not restorative.
Tana (28:17):
No.
Don (28:17):
Right?
And biblical justice isrestorative, and it's always
about people, individuals,reclaiming, uh, their
inheritance, so to speak, fromthis God.
Right, it's it's back to yourprodigal son, right?
How does your prodigal son thinkof themselves?
(28:38):
I was dead I left you and Ithink it's interesting that he
imagines he's dead becausethat's what he wishes for the
father I was dead I've sinnedagainst you and against heaven.
Can I come back and be a lesserperson in your family?
Right, well In the U.
(28:59):
S., in our justice system, theanswer from the father would be
like, Yeah, that's fine, overthere's the broom and the mop,
start cleaning.
Tana (29:06):
Yeah.
Don (29:07):
Um, and someday, I might, I might love you again, whatever,
right?
Tana (29:11):
Right, yeah.
Don (29:12):
Um, but in Jewish concept of justice, biblical concept of
justice, the answer is, No, youwalked away and separated
yourself from this family.
You just came back because yourealized...
That what you did was harmful,it broke relationships, it ended
(29:33):
meaningful X, Y, and Z.
And because you came back, I'mgoing to say...
You're, you're, you're back inthe family.
You've been restored.
And here's the kicker, whichupsets the brother: even his
inheritance is restored.
He blew the inheritance he took,but by being restored back in
(29:55):
the family, he's going to gainanother inheritance when the
father passes.
Tana (30:02):
Yeah.
Don (30:02):
And that's what upsets the older brother.
And we could go into quite indepth about the older brother in
that, but I don't think it'spertinent to this discussion.
Tana (30:10):
There's lots of rabbit trails we could follow with
this.
Don (30:13):
Indeed.
Tana (30:14):
Yeah.
I think that's, I think that's avery, It's a very difficult
thing for, I would say, peoplein the United States with our
particular society and the waywe've set up justice and the way
we discuss the Bible even.
And it's, first of all, I thinkwe Christians in general kind of
(30:37):
throw around the word evil alittle bit too loosely.
Don (30:41):
Oh yeah.
Tana (30:42):
You know, everything that they don't like is evil.
Don (30:44):
Yeah.
Tana (30:47):
And then secondly, there's, like you said, there's
no, uh, There's, there's not alot of restorative justice
happening, even within families.
You know, it's, you're disowned,that's it.
Um, and that is, that is, thatis very sad because what you've
(31:11):
discussed is that, you know,God, you're saying that there's
all these different things that,uh, even though there's not an
offering, it doesn't mean it'snot forgivable.
Don (31:20):
Sure.
And I want to, you know, and Iknow you don't mean this because
I'm estranged from my parents,uh, because my parents committed
from my perspective, atrocitiestowards me.
Uh, and though I would say Ihave forgiven them, I'm not
interested in a relationshipwith them.
And so there still seems fromthe outside to be severed ties
(31:43):
from that.
But I think, I think you'reright.
I think we tend to, well, andit's, it's the beauty of the
scene in the garden, right?
It's not something that you justsimply know, which is something
that makes me upset with A lotof like the Christian teachings
(32:04):
I was raised with was that insome way that we inherently know
the difference between right andwrong.
Um, or that when you become aChristian, you, something gets
downloaded into your heart andsoul that helps you tell the
difference between good andwrong.
And the truth is, no, it'scomplicated.
(32:24):
Life is complicated.
Tana (32:25):
It's very complicated.
Don (32:26):
And we can point to obvious situations and be like, you
should know better.
But the number of times thatI've been in experiences and
have participated in things thatseemed okay, neutral, or even
good, and then I walked away andlearned something new or just
mature, and I go, whoa, thatwas,
Tana (32:49):
Right.
Yeah.
Don (32:50):
that was harmful.
Yeah, that was bad.
And so.
To me, this is kind of what'sgoing on in the garden is that
God was telling humanity, I willwalk with you as long as it
takes for you to come to a placewhere you're healthy in your
(33:11):
ability to judge well.
Tana (33:16):
Yeah.
Don (33:16):
And we left early.
We were like, oh man, thiscourse is taking too long and
I'm out.
I think I got the gist of this.
I'm good.
Tana (33:25):
Yeah.
You said something earlier thatsparked a thought and then quite
honestly I was staring at thepainting behind you and I
immediately lost what the thingwas I was gonna, I was gonna say
and then the rest of what youwere saying didn't spark that
same thought so.
(33:46):
Darn it.
Don (33:47):
That was a very long way to say, you were interesting for a
half second.
Tana (33:55):
I wanted to graduate early from this conversation.
Don (33:59):
Well I have a question.
For me, my faith has gone manyplaces.
Not always.
And maybe not even currently tothe places that it, I was raised
for it to be.
Tana (34:17):
Mm hmm.
Don (34:20):
And for me the, this idea of God as king and lawmaker
Tana (34:25):
Mm hmm.
Don (34:26):
When just stated, does not feel great.
Tana (34:29):
Mm hmm.
Don (34:31):
It doesn't even resonate with me.
Tana (34:33):
Mm hmm.
Don (34:35):
But, well I shouldn't say but I think a lot of our
listeners who are going throughdeconstruction, who are
wrestling with exactly what theBible means and what the laws in
the Bible actually, what powervalue they add and the God that
(34:55):
they grew up being told about orthat they converted to later,
whatever it might be.
As they've deconstructed, doesthis, does this discussion even
still matter?
And I'm not just talking about,like, on a moral basis, like, I
think, you know, most peoplewould argue we should strive for
(35:18):
good morality regardless ofbelief system.
Tana (35:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Don (35:22):
I'm talking about when we define it using the Bible,
should this even still mattertoday?
Like, if you're going throughdeconstruction, you're not sure
what you think about God.
Does any of the stuff that wetalked about, from what the
Bible says, from what the Bibleteaches, what the Bible expects,
the Leviticus offering system,does any of that matter?
Tana (35:47):
I feel like that is a very large...
Question that we could dedicatean entire other podcast episode
to.
Don (35:54):
This is aJFF code for, I don't want to answer this right
now.
Because I do it all the timetoo.
I think we can probably doseveral podcasts on this one.
Tana (36:04):
No, I think, I think it's, I think it's a very large
question, but I think it wouldkind of take us down a different
route.
Um, and I think what I kind ofwant to get back to is,"does it
fundamentally change our view ofGod if God created evil?" Uh,
(36:32):
and why would God create evil?
Don (36:36):
Well, I think this goes back to my statement that I'm
not sure that it was that Godone day got out of bed on the
wrong side, was in a pissy moodand was like, you know what?
I think I am gonna causecalamity, right?
I think that's how God has beentaught, right?
(36:57):
That God is grumpy, moody,whatever, and if we don't
appease that God, that God thencrushes us.
Yeah.
And I don't see that God in theBible, unless I'm wearing the
interpretive lens offundamentalist Christianity.
Right.
(37:19):
So, does it change for me what Ithink about God, that God
created evil?
I would say no.
In fact, what it does for mewhen I have a healthy
perspective of it, it says whatGod created was Micah 6.
(37:40):
8.
Humility, mercy, compassion,love, and generosity towards
neighbor.
Right?
At least the system that Israelbelieved in and attributed to
God was this system that waslike the poor's voice matters
just as much as the affluence.
That a person who's been cut offfrom well being, a widow, right?
(38:03):
That they're to be taken care ofby the community.
An orphan who is cut off fromwell being should be cared for
by the community that there'sall these rules some of them
that we look at today and we gothat's messed up But if we
understood in its context, wewould find that it was actually
protecting people, right andwhen I read that I go, That
(38:29):
means that if someone, if, if agroup of people, the Israelites
in this case, uh, and eventuallyChristians, um, adhere to those
and say, that's the way I wantto live, because that's a really
good way to live.
The people who are against that,who hear that and see that and
go, no, don't take care of thewidow, let them die.
(38:54):
Orphans who caress.
If their parents didn't lovethem, we don't love them.
Mm.
That's evil.
Tana (38:59):
Mm-hmm.
Don (39:00):
by God creating such a, and again, I keep saying God,
creating, but Israel'sunderstanding of how the world
should work, that they attributeto God in that creation of those
rules and laws and ideas ofbeing on this planet, it, it
makes evil apparent.
(39:24):
And so I don't, when I thinkabout this, did God create evil?
I would say yes, only becausethe systems that Israel believed
to be of God were so good and sovaluable that the people that
were against it are terriblepeople.
Tana (39:41):
So it sounds almost like, bear with me for this for a
second, almost like in order tocreate good, it's opposite must
also exist.
So like if we just were, if Godjust was, everything just was,
(40:03):
we wouldn't have a concept thatit was good.
Don (40:06):
Correct.
Tana (40:07):
If there was not an opposite of it to be juxtaposed.
So it's almost like to me, it'salmost like, um, I'm so bad at
chemistry, but I feel likethere's something, I'm good at
chemical formulas, not good atchemistry.
But, uh, like, Like you createsomething and then there's like
a by product, you know?
Don (40:26):
Yeah.
I think water is a by product ofa lot of chemical combinations.
Tana (40:31):
Right.
So like, it feels almost like,you know, like God's like, Oh, I
want this good thing.
And then it's also going tocreate this other thing, you
know?
But it also makes me feel likethen the capacity for each must
have also existed within God.
I'm waiting for the lightningstrike.
(40:52):
Okay.
Don (40:53):
I, I mean, again, I'm, I'm not, I'm not certain
philosophically if that'snecessary.
Hmm.
Right.
Tana (41:06):
What?
Don (41:07):
The look on your face is, I wasn't sure if you, it looked
like you might have hadsomething else to say.
Tana (41:11):
No, I was just listening.
Agreeing.
Don (41:13):
So, I mean, it's like, if I, if I create light, that means
that I've also created darkness.
I don't ever have to be in thedarkness.
I don't like I can always justremain in the light.
Tana (41:31):
That's interesting.
Don (41:32):
So I don't, I don't know.
Tana (41:34):
That's very interesting.
Don (41:35):
And to me, that's a, that's an interesting question or
assumption.
And I just, I don't, I mean, I'dlove feedback from our
listeners, uh, on how you feelabout that or what you think
about that.
Tana (41:47):
That actually, no, that is very interesting.
Cause I'm thinking, well, if I,if I enter a dark room and I
realize it's already dark tobegin with, but, um, I turn on a
light, there's going to beshadows cast by different things
in the room because I broughtout a light and my intention
wasn't to create darkness.
(42:10):
It was to illuminate.
That's very interesting.
And I almost feel like thismight be too much of a stretch,
I don't know, but I almost feellike we get that now where
there's people who try to creategood things.
(42:32):
And then it just like, I eventhink about like somebody who's
like, Oh, I'm just going tocreate this inspiring content on
a social media platform.
And then it brings out trolls.
Like their intention was not tocreate trolls.
Don (42:46):
Yeah.
And, and here's something else.
If we are taking the Bible atface value, like historically,
God doesn't give any laws untilMount Sinai.
Right.
Which in history is about 6, 000years ago, right?
(43:06):
Like if we tried our best toalign what the Bible says with
historical process, it's onlyabout 6, 000 years ago.
Yeah.
If like me, you hold that theplanet is, you know, a couple
billion years old, that's arelatively brand new concept.
Yeah.
And so I think you could look atthe Sinai experience of Israel.
(43:33):
They just came out of slavery.
They just came out from thisplace of oppression.
And they're retelling this storyprobably generations later
because it's not, this isn'tbeing recorded live, uh, when it
happens.
But as they're remembering whattook place on Mount Sinai, I
think there's this beautifuljuxtaposition of we can either
(43:56):
look back at Egypt wheresuffering and harm and the
treatment of other humans was,was horrible.
It was abusive.
Um, and they justified itthrough really unhealthy ways.
Or we could look to the peak ofthis mountain that demonstrates
power and strength and imaginedthat the choice from that was,
(44:23):
mercy, justice, and love.
And that it's through mercy,justice, and love that power
should come, not throughoppression, devastation and
murder like it was in Egypt.
And so I think you can look andIsrael wrote laws Um, compelled
(44:48):
by a deity or not, the laws thatwere written down were a way for
Israel to bring lightness totheir own dark history and to
keep them in the light so theydidn't stray off of it and
contribute to dark behavior thatthey had learned earlier in
(45:09):
life.
And when I think about it inthose terms.
It's then really beautiful.
Yeah.
I think what we do is we readthe garden story, even though
Israel meant it as a parable,not literal.
Tana (45:24):
Mm hmm.
Don (45:24):
And even though we read it as a parable and not literal, we
still attribute it literally.
Tana (45:29):
Yeah.
Don (45:30):
That from the beginning, in the garden, God created good and
evil.
Tana (45:33):
Yeah.
Don (45:35):
Well, that's, that's adding literalness to a parable.
That we need to be careful of.
Tana (45:41):
Yeah, fair.
Don (45:43):
And so instead what I would argue is Israel developed a
system that confronted thedarkness in this world with a
light.
They called that light Yahweh.
They called that light Torah.
They called that light, um,loving your neighbor.
And we can look at history Andthis small nation who has been
(46:08):
accosted and enslaved and harmedand tried to be forced into
extinction has used those waysof thinking about the world and
treating others to still surviveand continue to bring light to
the world.
Which is why the Bible is sointerested always in taking the
(46:31):
light to the world.
Let your light shine through.
Bring light into darkness.
All of this language is becauseIsrael imagines the way of God
will always bring light.
Tana (46:45):
Yeah.
Don (46:46):
And therefore, call out darkness.
Yeah.
Tana (46:50):
Well, I feel like that's a beautiful sentiment and a great
place to stop.
Unless you have any finalthoughts you want to offer.
Don (46:59):
No, you're the boss, and if you say we stop, we're stopping.
Tana (47:03):
Okay, how far can I extend this I'm the boss thing?
Don (47:08):
I'm pretty sure you've extended it across all venues of
our life.
So,
Tana (47:16):
All right, got to go.
I have a lot of things to tellDon to do.
Don (47:18):
People, I'm living in the dark.
Tana (47:22):
Oh, so, uh, thank you all for joining us.
And if you want to find us inbetween podcast episodes, you
can find us on all the socials.
Just look for Ancient JesusFuture Faith.
We'll be there, or you can checkus out at AJFFpodcast.
com and we'll see you next time.
Don (47:40):
Bye.
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