Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, this is Tanya from agentJesus, future faith.
(00:02):
We are off this week, but as aspecial bonus for our audio
podcast listeners, we areincluding here today.
The audio from our YouTube livestream discussion on
deconstruction.
This is a conversation Don and Ihad about our deconstruction
journey.
Plus we answered some questionsfrom our viewers.
(00:24):
We hope you enjoy it and we'llbe back with you soon with our
normally scheduled programming
Don (00:29):
all right.
So Tana, uh, let's get into theconversation.
So the conversation is aboutdeconstruction.
Something that you and I havedone, and we had some
interesting conversations in thelast several days actually
about, um, kind of how, uh, wedid this.
We did deconstruction before itwas cool.
(00:52):
Yeah, we did.
And, uh, and so for some, for alittle bit, I think we
overlooked the impact of a lotof people that are going through
deconstruction now.
Like we, we kind of, weoverlooked it a little bit.
Um, so what, if you don't mind,share, if you'd be willing to
share a little bit about thattime in our life when the
(01:16):
deconstruction kind of startedto happen.
Tana (01:21):
Um, yeah.
So I was terrified honestlybecause I was pregnant with
Malcolm at the time.
Don was the college pastor at abig megachurch.
And, um, we were still veryThanks Franklin.
(01:42):
Um, and we were still, uh, westill believed in a lot of more
kind of conservative,traditional complimentarian,
like that kind of stuff.
And one day Don came over andvisited me at work and he's
like, can we go for a walk?
(02:03):
You know, I was like, sure.
Don (02:05):
He started never a good start to a conversation,
Tana (02:08):
we need to talk.
And uh, he was just started kindof laying out this whole, like,
things he had been thinkingabout and then this vision too
of where he's like, I want ourhouse to be a place where people
can just come and go almostwhenever they want.
Don (02:24):
That wasn't deconstruction, that was just bad
Tana (02:26):
boundaries.
Yeah, that was, that was, butbut it was a mix all into the
conversation.
So it's like entwined in mymind, right.
And um, I'm listening and I'mtrying to be supportive and then
he left and I was like, oh mygosh, my husband's a heretic.
And I completely freaked out.
But at the same time, I hadalways had these questions in
(02:49):
the back of my mind.
Like there would be times Iwould try to tow the party line,
so to.
Um, and, and be like, okay, wellthis is something we're supposed
to believe.
Um, and so I'm gonna say Ibelieve it.
And then in the back of my mindI'd be like, I don't really
believe this.
And I never understood a lot ofthe, um, hedges people put
(03:13):
around scripture.
I didn't understand some of therules.
Um, uh, there, the obsessionwith all things sex and like how
much that was pushed at us,especially as teenagers of, you
know, there's this specific typeof marriage and you can have sex
within that marriage, and theneverything else is sin, you
(03:34):
know, and, and the, thehomophobia didn't sit well with
me.
And, you know, there was allkinds of things that I had had
questions about, but I wastaught that questions were
wrong.
And so, I would have thesequestions, but then I'd be like,
oh, I'm, I'm bad for havingthese questions.
I'm, I'm doubting and Ishouldn't doubt and blah, blah,
(03:54):
blah.
Um, so yeah.
So that was, that was kind ofthe terrifying start of
Don (04:02):
all that.
So how, what would you say thenwas kind of your first foray?
Because, because really whatyou're describing there is I had
started my deconstructionprocess and I think one time
you, I was explaining to someoneabout the beauty of
understanding Judaism andunderstanding Christianity
(04:24):
through the context of Judaism.
And I said, it's like, you know,many of us, we grew up standing
on the beach looking at theocean and understanding
Christianity through the lens ofJudaism, uh, was like going out
and putting on a snorkel andgoing underwater.
And you kind of described theprocess of, of me getting you to
that place.
But I would argue that.
(04:44):
That time was verytransformational for me.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, so it was bothdeconstruction because I was
finding this new way to read thetext mm-hmm.
and cause of that I wasdeconstructing at the same time
that I was discovering thisamazing space.
And you said yes.
Yeah.
It's wonderful for everyone, butDon kind of grabbed my head and
(05:05):
dunked me under the water.
Tana (05:06):
Yeah.
I felt like you were just like,look what's down here And you
know?
And I was like, but I can'tbreathe.
Uh, so it felt very sudden anddisorienting and, and all of
that.
But then, you know, after westarted to kind of go through
the process, um, it was veryfreeing, but I was also very
(05:27):
angry.
Um, we were attending a solidlyevangelical church and there had
been so many things that hadbeen said and taught at that
church that.
Really harmed me, um, and harmedDon and harmed a lot of other
people I'm sure.
And so I just, yeah.
(05:49):
I started, kind of started to,to get angry about like, feeling
like I was lied too.
Yeah.
And, and that's difficultbecause I don't, I do think
there are people who weaponizeChristianity and weaponize a
certain interpretation of theBible, but I think there are a
(06:10):
bunch of other people who trulybelieve these things that I see
as harmful.
Sure.
And so in some way I felt likemy anger was justified.
But in other, like later, lateron I was like, well, they
actually believe this.
Don (06:28):
Like, yeah.
It reminds me of like, who's toblame for believing that uh, the
sun goes around the earth.
Uh, right.
Like who's to blame prior tothat becoming common knowledge
that it's the other way around.
And I, that's one of the thingsI find the most complicated with
(06:48):
the deconstruction processes.
It's almost hard to know who tobe angry at because Yeah.
People were just grew up in asetting that this was just true
and Right.
They didn't have the, you know,credentials or the ability to
argue for something else in avalid way against it.
Mm-hmm.
(07:09):
And so, you know, at what point,who is who is at fault?
And I feel like that for a lotof people is a really
complicated space in this is, isknowing who, who do I hold
accountable for this?
Tana (07:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's really hard and Ithink that's what makes it
difficult for people to, um, beat different places in the
process.
Yes.
Uh, because, you know, sodeconstruction is kind of having
(07:45):
a moment right now.
Right.
And you and I were talking theother day about how we're like,
this is so interesting cuz wedid this like 20 years ago.
And so it's just not really onthe top of our minds anymore.
Um, not because we think thereconstruction process is
completely finished, but justbecause that just wasn't, I
(08:07):
don't know, it just, it happenedso long ago to do the
deconstruction process that itdidn't seem as, I don't know,
relevant or something.
And now I'm just seeingdeconstruction everywhere and
I'm like, oh
Don (08:18):
yeah, me this you sent me this article today that had this
mm-hmm.
Now this is from the GospelCoalition, which is firmly
against deconstruction.
But it's interesting, visa saysas of today there are 290 3026
posts on Instagram utilizing thehashtag deconstruction.
(08:38):
Now my guess is that that numberis exponentially larger because
I think this article is fromlike April or something to that
effect.
I think it might have beenFebruary actually.
Okay.
So, but it says, you know, thevast majority are from people
who've deconverted fromChristianity become progressive
Christians embrace same sexmarriage and relationships,
rejected core historic doctrinesof the faith or are on a mission
(09:01):
to crush the white Christianpatriarchy.
I have to say at that point Ithink they nailed it.
That's exactly what's happening.
That is, yeah, exactly.
Now they make that a bad thing,but I'm like, I feel seen right?
Like that, that yes, that ishappening.
Um, and just a plethora ofinsults, mockery and anger Hurd
(09:21):
at the church along with memestating I regret saving myself
from marriage and good morning.
It's great to leave your nonaffirming church.
Um, So I, I think that that's,you know, you said that it's
having a moment and right thereis, there's a huge amount of
hashtags out there fordeconstruction.
(09:42):
I think one of the, the thingsthat is not necessarily helpful
to people is that they don'tknow where to go for guidance
amidst it.
Tana (09:56):
Right.
Don (09:58):
Right.
Because there's no, there's nounified voice because everyone's
process is different.
So I think, feel, my perceptionis from the outside looking in,
that you have a lot of peoplethat used to have their feet
firmly planted in their faithand their understanding of God
now firmly planted with theirfeet in midair and they, and it
(10:21):
feels unrecoverable, right.
So, So what are your thoughtsabout, um, how did you handle
that?
Tana (10:37):
That's a good question.
Oh, man.
How did I handle
Don (10:47):
the, the feeling of this?
Yeah, I, I mean, the feeling ofyour feet being firmly planted
in mid-air with nothing solid tograsp.
Tana (10:56):
Yes.
Imagine, imagine it's all rage.
Um, it's, I'm trying toremember.
Cause it was so long ago.
I, you know, it was very, um,unmooring.
It was, I, I wrote an article alittle bit.
(11:19):
I don't know, maybe in the lastcouple months or something where
I talked about how constantgaslighting throughout my life,
uh, has led to me feeling likean unreliable narrator in my own
story.
You know, because it wouldconstantly be like, that's not
what happened.
This is what happened, and thatwasn't my fault.
It was your fault.
(11:40):
And like, you know, everythingwas my problem.
Nothing was ever anybody else's
Don (11:46):
problem, you know?
And, and the church uses thephrase, uh, you like, what
tickles your ears to do thatsame thing,
Tana (11:53):
right?
Yeah.
Well, and then there's all theBS about, um, like the impurity
culture where it was like, well,boys will be boys and we just
kind of expect them to havethese sexual urges, urges, but
it, so it's girls responsibilityto, you know, remain chased and
to do as much as we can to nottempt the boys or allow them to.
(12:19):
Engage in their urges.
I don't know.
It was always put on the youngwomen.
So, um, in a way that was, itwas a much the same feeling
where I felt like I had beenlied to in a lot of ways.
And so then I was like, well,what's true and what isn't true?
(12:42):
Yes.
And, and then, and you're alsotold, we talked about this a
little bit, um, in our podcastepisode on emotions where we
talked about that the heart isdeceitful above all things
verse, and so you're taught notto trust your emotions.
And so it was also kind of thatlike, well, can I trust?
(13:06):
Like, this feels wrong, thisfeels negative.
Can I trust that feeling?
Since my previous pastors havealways told me X, Y, Z.
Don (13:17):
Yeah.
And, you know, go ahead.
I'm
Tana (13:19):
sorry.
I was just gonna say it was, itwas very difficult at times to
not have a touchstone for that,which is why I really
appreciated the level of Biblestudy that you do.
Because it did, it wasn't quiteto that point yet when we were
(13:40):
still at the megachurch.
But then when we moved on fromthe megachurch, you really
started to like teach people howto study the Bible and, and, and
all the different methods youtaught us and all the different,
different digging to scripture.
It felt like it helped to me tofind solid
Don (13:58):
ground.
Yeah, me too.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Tana (14:02):
Yeah.
Did that mess
Don (14:04):
up what you were gonna ask her?
I, it's irrelevant now.
Um, but that's fine.
Um, the, The thing for me, kindof what you were saying about
not having a touchstone for me,when as I started
deconstructing, I started toquestion some of the things that
I had been taught.
I realized that I either had togo back to the text to, uh, to
(14:31):
see if that's what the text wassaying or if that's how somebody
was interpreting it and tellingme.
Right.
And that became huge for mebecause as I started going back
and started looking at evenolder interpretations of the
Bible and the older I keptgetting, the further back I kept
(14:52):
going in history tointerpretation of the text, the
more affirmed my views felt.
Yeah.
And the more the modern churchfell short of some of the oldest
ways of reading the.
Yeah.
And so for me it was, it, the,the very thing that felt like
became unhinged from me becamemy anchor.
(15:12):
Um,
Tana (15:14):
and, and that's something that was very interesting, uh,
as part of this whole processwas to learn a little bit about
that church history.
Because once I learned that ourcurrent, um, sort of more
fundamentalist, evangelical,conservative kind of view of
(15:35):
Christianity, that has been sortof the prevailing view for the
last, well, all my whole life,um, was not developed until like
300 years ago
Don (15:48):
Right.
And, and, and done in chunks 500years at a time since past that.
Tana (15:54):
Yeah.
And, and it's like, oh, why am Ifeeling like this is the, like
all time truth?
if it, if that hasn't been theway that the scripture has been
interpreted for hundreds ofyears.
Like it's, it's a fairly moderninvention
Don (16:15):
so to speak.
Well, you and I have found it,uh, it clear in some of the
things that we were readingthat, uh, if, if you agree with
the changes that were made inchurch history, then you're a
reformer.
If you agree with the changesthat people want to make in
religion, then they'redeconstructionist.
(16:38):
Mm-hmm.
And so I think it's interesting.
I, I, I almost wish that itwasn't too late.
I mean, that, that's, thathashtag is gone.
It's set sail.
It's gonna be deconstruction.
It's not reformed.
Reforming faith.
People won't, yeah, we won't getthat.
But I do think that there is aspace in which instead of
(16:58):
talking about deconstruction, Ormaybe as well as talking about
deconstruction.
We can talk about reforming thefaith.
Mm-hmm.
And that that's what we arewanting to do.
We want to reform Christianity,not we want to, uh, you know,
destroy it.
Which is what I think people whoare uncomfortable with, people
(17:20):
deconstructing think that that'swhat they want to do, is that
people want to destroyChristianity, destroy Jesus.
And it's, the truth is, no, wejust want to destroy your church
well in the end.
And
Tana (17:33):
not Jesus.
The, the result for some peopleis to leave the church.
The, the result for some peopleis to leave the church and to
leave faithful together.
That's what's helping.
And so I think that's, I thinkthat's scary for some people.
Don (17:45):
Absolutely.
Um, especially as some of thestuff being deconstructed is
eternal, uh, destinations.
Right.
And so, You know, if peopleleave the church, the people
that they're leaving andabandoning, so to speak, to move
on to something else, thosepeople that are still standing
left behind, um, are are worriedabout that person's salvation.
(18:11):
Um, so yeah.
Let's do a couple questions, ifyou don't mind.
From the church.
Yeah,
Tana (18:15):
yeah.
I
Don (18:15):
was just thinking that.
Yeah.
All right.
What have you gained sincedeconstruction and
reconstruction?
Tana (18:26):
I think, um, very generally speaking, I have been
more able to understand why Ibelieve what I believe Before it
was more so just parroting.
What I thought I was supposed tobelieve, and then if I had
(18:48):
questions about it, I reallywasn't supposed to ask those.
And even though there was alwaysthat you should always have a
reason for your beliefs.
I don't remember the exactphrasing.
I was like, I don't, I don't, ifI'm really probed on this, I
don't think I could defend it,you know?
Hmm.
Which unfortunately for me, I'mstill kind of bad at that, but
it's no longer because I haven'texplored it.
(19:11):
It's because I'm very bad atremembering the details of, uh,
of, uh, an idea.
Like once I reach a conclusion,I'm like, okay, all of this
stuff has led me here, and thenI'll forget all the the
Don (19:25):
stuff that led you there, just you recipe.
Tana (19:29):
Yes.
I'm just like, here's thechocolate cake.
But I don't remember how I gothere.
But, um, yeah, so I, I would saythough I am still better at
defending than I was before.
I'm just not as good at it assay Don.
Don (19:44):
So, so here's, here's my question about that though.
Tana is, I mean, that's not theobligation.
Your obligation is not to answerto other people.
The, my question then for youis, are you more satisfied about
your understanding of what youbelieve now?
Right.
It's not about whether or notyou can defend it to, you know,
(20:05):
Joe Schmoe, who actually is notinterested in being convinced of
your view.
They're just, they just wannaargue with you and prove a point
against your view.
Probably true your job.
You're not responsible for themor even to them to give them
that information.
So right.
When I'm hearing you talk, itsounds to me, and I don't wanna
(20:27):
put words in your mouth, but itsounds to me like you're saying
you now have a better sense ofwhy you believe the things you
believe regardless of whether ornot you can articulate them, uh,
compellingly to someone else.
Tana (20:40):
Yeah.
I think that I definitely have abetter understanding of my
beliefs and I'm also way morecomfortable with uncertainty and
gray areas.
Mm-hmm.
And in fact, to me, um, one ofthe questions that was always
kind of rattling around in mybrain before was like, well if
God, cuz I was always taught Godis omnipotent, God is so much
(21:03):
greater than we are and God isbeyond Bo all understanding.
But then everybody sounded socertain about what God would do,
what God, you know, what God wastrying to teach us, what you
know, whatever.
And, and I remember thinkingthat doesn't seem to add up.
And so now I can.
(21:24):
I can sit comfortably in thisknowledge that if God is, you
know, almighty and this creatorand so much bigger than us, and
you know, then how ridiculous isit for us to think we can
(21:44):
understand every single thingthat, you know, that anything in
the Bible or or, or whatever andand a more comfortable kind of
sitting in that and going, well,there's no way I could possibly
understand all of this, and somaybe I'll find out when I die.
(22:04):
I don't know.
But I feel like I was gonna sayanother thing, but it just went
right
Don (22:09):
outta my head.
That's all right.
If it comes back, we'll loopback to it.
So, okay.
For me, I'd say one of thethings I gained was peace.
Like the deconstruction andreconstruction process before
deconstruction.
I, I felt like I was a, youknow, I was a person in the
(22:30):
hands of an angry God.
I felt like I was a spider beingdangled over the, the bonfire,
like, you know, Jonathan Edwardstalks about, that's, that's the
god that I was raised toimagine.
And there's no peace.
So when Jesus says, come to meall who are weary and heavy
laden and find rest I that, thatwas unfamiliar, uh, I how do you
(22:54):
feel rest terrified that at anymoment you're going to screw up
everything and Right.
God's plan for your life, you'regonna screw up, you know,
whatever it might be.
And, and this is my journey, somaybe other people didn't have
it quite as harsh as that, but Ifelt like I was always on a
tightrope.
So for me, in a lot of ways,especially as a teacher, because
(23:15):
I was pastoring even in that,from that mindset, And as a
pastor, you know, people willquote the passage that says, you
know, teachers will be judgedmore harshly.
Um, which by the way just meanspeople that give advice on
behalf of God will be judged forwhether or not that advice is
godly And it better be if you'regonna give that advice.
So a lot of pastors should benervous by that passage.
(23:37):
Um, but it ha it has given me alot of peace, right?
So I'd say that's the biggestthing I gained is I'm
comfortable with what I don'tknow.
I love what I know or what Ibelieve, and in the midst of all
that, I have great peace aboutmy faith.
Um, so yeah.
I hope that was helpful, Amanda.
Okay.
(23:57):
Jerich says, what do you see asthe end goal of the
deconstruction process?
Tana (24:07):
Hmm.
I think, I think it's differentfor everybody.
But I think the, maybe thecommonality is that sense of
peace that you just mentionedon, um, at the ending of torture
(24:28):
cuz so many people are, um, likementally and emotionally
tortured in the church andthere's so much religious trauma
out there.
And so the deconstructionprocess usually allows people to
unpack that trauma Yeah.
(24:49):
And to determine whether or notthey still want to be in a faith
context after experiencing thattrauma.
And then for others it's justunpacking harmful beliefs or um,
uh, things that just didn't sitquite well.
And so I think the goal isbetter understanding.
(25:16):
of why you believe, what youbelieve, resolving the cognitive
dissonance.
That's a good way of putting it,Amanda.
Um, and I think also maybe, uh,more grace and mercy towards
others.
(25:36):
I, I feel like most people aredeconstructing from a pretty
stringent interpretation of theBible and of what it means to be
a Christian.
And it's very judgemental.
Even though people wouldconstantly say, judge, not less
you be judged, but then like,then in the next breath they'd
be like, these people are goingto hell.
(25:58):
And uh, and so once you've gonethrough deconstruction, at least
most of the people I know whohave gone through it, they're
way more merciful.
Um, and way more open to, yeah,like doors of the church and the
doors to heaven are open toeverybody.
I do think most of us go througha period and it's longer for
(26:18):
some people than others of beingpissed off uh, fundamentalist
Christians and evangelicals andpeople who are really strident
about their faith.
And sometimes that doesn't goaway and sometimes it does.
Um, yeah.
But
Don (26:34):
yeah.
So two, two quick thoughts.
One is you mentioned abouttrauma.
Um, something for you all tolook forward to in January, Dr.
Dwayne Wood is gonna be on and,um, medical doctor.
And one of the topics that we'rehoping that we'll talk about
that night is how religioustrauma impacts our bodies.
(26:58):
Um, so something to keep an eyeout.
I think he's coming on January17th.
I don't remember, to be honest.
19 something like that.
Sometime in the mid-January.
So watch out for that.
Uh, that should be wonderful.
Second of all, there's a newermovie that, I don't know if
you've seen Tana, um, wherethey, they're like on this
(27:19):
journey and during the journeythey're, they're like, um,
they're meeting people along theway.
They're growing in theirunderstanding of how things
work, um, and they arrive.
But about partway through themovie, it changes from black and
white to technical.
Um, uh, the Wizard of Oz, Ithink is what it's called.
(27:40):
Um, brand New flick just cameout, catch it on Netflix.
And I think about that for likethe deconstruction process.
When you finally havedeconstructed and you start
rebuilding, it's like you'rerebuilding in color.
And in that, yeah, in thatexperience of rebuilding, you're
seeing the beauty, but you'realso.
(28:02):
Hurt because why weren't youalways building with color?
Right?
And so there's a little bit ofanger, but there's also some
celebration.
But then you start to seeeverything else in color, and so
then you, you have joy towardsthat.
I, I think that there's just areally powerful piece with that
reconstruction process.
Yeah.
All right.
(28:22):
You ready for the next question?
It's a part one.
So Franklin asks, I think thatdeconstruction has become one of
those words that has lost itsdirect meaning and become
whatever negative concept peoplewant or need it to be.
Do you think there's a way forus to recapture the
transformative heart ofdeconstruction and the reality
(28:43):
that everyone does it at onepoint or another in their lives?
Tana (28:48):
Hmm.
Yeah.
It.
I think any, any kind ofbuzzword like that is gonna have
multiple meanings depending on,you know, who's using it and
why.
Uh, so yeah, I think, uh, it's,yeah, I, I, I think there are a
(29:10):
lot of people who arepurposefully trying to make it
negative.
Uh, I was reading some articlestoday and it was very much like
beware the deconstructionprocess and their descriptions
of the deconstructdeconstruction process were,
were very straw man.
You know, like, um,deconstruction is inherently bad
(29:31):
and people who were doing itdon't, don't care about Jesus
and don't use the Bible as aguide and blah, blah, blah.
Um, so yeah.
So I think there's somedifferent meanings out there
about, I love the idea of, um,how did you put it?
Recapture the transformativeheart, um, and the reality.
Everyone does it at one point oranother in their lives.
(29:53):
I think we are actually at thismoment in Christianity where if
we can just get enough peopletogether to have the right
conversations, um, we have theopportunity to build a
beautiful, wonderful faithmoving forward.
I think that deconstruction ispart of that.
(30:17):
I think deconstruction is havinganother moment right now, mainly
because of the, uh, of Trumpismkind of getting into
evangelicalism and then
Don (30:29):
mega evangelicalism,
Tana (30:33):
mag Mag, I can't remember that.
Um, and the sort of marriage ofthe political.
With Evangelicalism.
Uh, I mean, just, I just saw athing today that said, you know,
an exit polls, whiteevangelicals mostly voted for
Herschel Walker, which if youlook, you know, on paper and you
(30:54):
go, oh, Christians are againstlike, extramarital sex and
abortions and all this otherstuff, like, which were all
things that Herschel Walker had,and he literally lost to a
minister, you know, So it'slike, okay.
Um, so I think that's like awhole new movement in
(31:16):
deconstruction that has a littlebit more, uh, thorniness to it
because it's become politicaland has a lot of, um, a lot more
trauma in it because it'sjoining, joining with policy
that's affecting people's lives,you know?
Don (31:34):
Yeah.
I I think we can also all kindof agree that anytime you're
doing anything as a re action,it tends to not be the best of
the responses that could happen.
Right, right.
And yeah.
And so I think that part of theway that deconstruction, the
concept of deconstruction andreconstruction becomes
(31:58):
redeemable, or I don't even knowthat it needs to be redeemed,
but it becomes a lesscatchphrase and basically
meaning right bash, uh, thechurch and bash Christianity,
right?
Is to actually create space inwhich people can safely
deconstruct.
The problem is, is that a lot ofpeople that have begun the
(32:18):
deconstruction process do nothave a safe place to do it.
And because of that, it, youhave to do whatever you can to
shake free of this snake on aplane.
And, uh, you'll use the F wordif you have to.
Right, right.
And so, like, I think there'spart of that whole process that
there's just not a safe place todeconstruct.
(32:40):
And until we create safe placesto deconstruct mm-hmm.
um, people are going to abandoneverything as opposed to Right.
Um, be able to pause in a safeplace, evaluate the things that
have caused harm.
Mm-hmm.
eliminate those, inspect those,build upon those mm-hmm.
(33:02):
without re having to rejecteverything, um mm-hmm.
And then later on in life,possibly try to pick up some of
those pieces.
Um, so I don't know if that washelpful, Franklin, but I think
Tana (33:14):
I had something to add though.
I, um, to, to that what I wassaying about how we're kind of
in this moment, I think rightnow that offers a lot of
opportunity is there are a lotof people going, deconstructing
and trying to explore if theywanna stay with their faith or
if they don't.
And if they do, what does thatmean?
(33:35):
Where can they go?
Um, how do they rebuild thisfaith and what's new about it?
What parts of evangelicalism dothey jettison and which ones do
they keep?
Um, things like that.
And if we could get everybodykind of on the same page about,
um, releasing like dogma and,and doctrine, I think we have
(33:59):
this beautiful moment where wecan build a new future for the
Christian faith that isn't somuch based on, okay, do you
believe these.
particular things.
All right.
You're the right kind ofChristian.
Right.
Um, if we could somehow jointogether and have, I mean, we,
we could have this big beautifultent that we're all
Don (34:20):
under, you're describing Evangelicalism.
Tana (34:24):
It, that's what it was.
That's what originally was.
It was meant to be that bigtent, uh, read David Gussie's
book after Evangelicalism to, tolearn more.
And it, it was meant to be sortof like this big beautiful tent.
But then they start, theystarted to have like these,
like, oh, these, um, sholis of,you know, whether or not you
were a, a true Christian, youknow?
(34:46):
Yeah.
And if we could move away fromthat Yep.
And, and then we would have aspace in which it is safe for
people to deconstruct.
Don (34:55):
All right.
You ready for the next question?
Sure.
is it possible to have gonethrough deconstruction
unconsciously?
I'm, I'm gonna guesssubconsciously I you might be
doing it unconsciously, I dunnoif so, is it possible for a
healthy reconstruction fromthere?
Uh, or would someone have to beintentional in another
(35:17):
deconstruction?
Just so you know, fifth Sunday,I always say unconscious when I
mean subconscious.
So I felt seen by you sayingthat.
Tana (35:29):
Thanks for affirming Don.
Yes, I need it.
Um, I don't know.
Don, do you wanna take this one?
I don't.
Yeah,
Don (35:38):
I, I, I think it absolutely is possible to subconsciously go
through it, um, to, becausemaybe one of the areas I would
say is LGBTQ inclusion, right?
Where a friend comes out to youand that friend is a Christian,
or they're, maybe they're noteven, but.
You now have to see the beautyof that human that you've loved
(35:59):
for all these years.
And you have to begin wrestlingwith what does it mean to still
love them, care for them, seevalue in them, see value in
their relationships andeverything.
And so that would be asubconscious deconstructing in
my opinion there.
I imagine there's many otherways you hear, uh, a woman teach
and she's powerful and she, whatshe says is impactful.
(36:21):
And so now you have to start towrestle with, wait, I thought
women were not supposed to be inthis position of power or
authority, but yet this personclearly is anointed in some way.
And so you might begin tosubconsciously deconstruct.
What I would encourage someoneto do that if they did do some
of the subconsciousdeconstruction and started
reconstructing is that they findsomeone that they trust who has
(36:46):
gone through the process to justcheck their work.
Um, you know, like, you know,just have someone look over the,
your paper and and pure editingYeah.
And I, and I, and I don't knowhow to say that without it maybe
coming across that you can'ttrust yourself cuz I don't mean
that, I just mean it's alwaysgood in that situation,
especially if you did itunintentionally to have someone
(37:10):
else that maybe has already gonethrough the process come, come
through and be like, okay, sotell me more about what you
experienced when you wereengaging this friend of yours
who came out and you were tryingto wrestle with what that meant
and how did you come to a changeof mind.
And then possibly that hopefullythat person can give you places
(37:30):
to shore up that view p they cangive you.
And it's not to like poke holesin your view.
It's more so to give you help toanchor it more securely.
Um, so that's, that's kind ofwhat I would recommend.
Tana (37:43):
Yeah.
I think, um, What was reallyhelpful for our process, process
is that one, we had each other,but two, we ended up with a
community of people whobasically, when we left the
megachurch followed you.
Yeah.
Um, because we were sort ofbeginning to deconstruct within
(38:05):
that college group, but wedidn't, I don't think we really
knew that,
Don (38:09):
you know, we would've never called it
Tana (38:11):
that.
Right.
We, yeah.
Uh, and so a bunch of peoplefollowed you and so we had this
little community of peoplethrough different iterations of
churches where everybody hadthese same questions.
Yeah.
They're like, I don't feelcomfortable with this anymore.
And, you know, um, and honestly,uh, the, the, I have such a,
(38:33):
like a good old days feelingabout that you know?
Um, because it was very excitingbecause everybody was.
Not, it wasn't just this likequestion authority, like kind of
a thing, but it was more solike, we're on this exciting
adventure together.
Yeah.
You know, it was invigorating,honestly.
Don (38:55):
Marcus says, I remember when I first met Don, oops.
He asked me questions about myfaith that made me cry.
That's my unofficial, officialstart to deconstruction.
Terrifying So, Marcus, I, Iactually want to ask your, for
your forgiveness, because Idon't think that at that point
in my own journey, I washonoring people as much as I
(39:18):
would like to imagine I do now.
Hmm.
Um, in some ways I liked beingthe person that kind of pushed
buttons.
Um, I still do, but I think I'm,I'm a little bit more careful
about it, um, than what I was inthe past because thankfully, Uh,
(39:39):
Marcus, you and I continued afriendship in a relationship and
we walked through hopefully alot of those things and it
wasn't nearly as terrifying, butI, but I can tell you that if at
that point, cuz I remembersitting in the coffee shop that
made me feel like I was in alittle girl's, uh, dollhouse or
a little girl I don't rememberwhat the coffee shop's name was,
(40:01):
but, um, but I, if, if at thatmoment you would've walked away
and never, you and I nevertalked again, I would've done a
huge disservice to you probably.
And, uh, that was not healthy ofme to do.
So, uh, hopefully, hopefullyyou've come out the other side.
Well and good.
(40:22):
Uh, so Marcus asks, is there anend to de construction?
Does it ever end?
Should it ever end?
I feel like this is kind of aneasy question.
Well, now
Tana (40:33):
I feel like we should change
Don (40:37):
I'm just gonna say, I'm gonna say, uh, there's never an
end to deconstruction and shouldit ever Nextdoor Bake
Tana (40:43):
Shop.
Sorry, Sorry.
I was, tell Marcus's comment.
I was trying to remember thename of the, the place too.
It was Nextdoor Bake Shop.
Anyway, sorry.
Go ahead.
Don (40:53):
I'd say no, it, it, it doesn't ever end.
No, it should not end.
Um, because if we aren't alwaysevaluating what we believe, then
we are setting up an idol.
Right?
It's one of the things' alwaysquote, yeah.
Hold on one second.
(41:14):
It, it's one of those things.
I always quote that if youworship the same God today as
you did yesterday, you'reworshiping an idol.
But obviously a lot of this isgonna come down to how you
personally definedeconstruction.
If you see it as a positive or anegative is going to impact
that.
Go ahead Tony.
It looks like that's where youwere
Tana (41:31):
heading.
That's where I was going, is I,I kind of wonder if we would
still call it deconstruction atthat point.
Um, because I think there'sdeconstruction and there's
reconstruction, and that is alla recursive process.
Like you're not gonna go throughit perfectly linearly.
Like first you do steps 1, 2, 3,4, 5, 6, and then you reco
(41:53):
reconstruct and you do one, two,you know, it's, it's gonna be
deconstruct this and thenreconstruct that and then
deconstruct a new thing andreconstruct that.
And then I think it's possiblethat eventually you're no longer
maybe in a phase ofdeconstruction, you're just in a
new phase where you'reconstantly dedicated to learning
(42:13):
and asking questions.
Yes.
And reading scripture deeply.
And it's no longer like you'retrying to deconstruct this, this
thing that has felt maybeharmful to you, but instead
you're trying to build a new
Don (42:27):
belief system.
So Tana, would you say as the,uh, the resident, uh,
rhetorician that, um, that it's,Deconstruction in some way.
The way that we're talking abouttonight means you're suspicious
of the, of the, uh, foundationof a belief.
(42:54):
Yeah.
Whereas the ongoing process ofrefining and passing it through
the fire, uh, and getting rid ofthe dross of our views and our
beliefs, that isn't, that isn'ta, um, doubting the foundation.
Right.
That I said is a refining.
So maybe refining is the, is
(43:14):
the
Tana (43:14):
term.
That's, that's a good term.
And I'm gonna try a really badmetaphor that just popped into
my head.
Um, I'm thinking about, I'm forit you'll, you'll fix it and
you'll make it sound better.
Uh, it, it's, it kinda remindsme of, um, oh, you were just
talking about this the otherday.
Good Bones, that TV show.
(43:35):
Love it.
Where, where they strip it downand make, and like, Whenever you
are stripping down a house, ifyou have to, like, if it's in
really bad shape, you might haveto just get rid of like
everything.
Right?
Um, and you might have a crackedfoundation that needs repaired
or maybe you need to pour awhole new foundation, or maybe
the studs are good and you canget everything down to the studs
(43:56):
and like the basic structure ofthe house is good.
And then you start rebuildingthe house.
So that feels to me likedeconstruction and then
reconstruction.
But over the years, you mayrenovate the house, you may redo
the kitchen, you might redo thebathroom, you might add a room,
you might, you know what I mean?
Like I kind of see it that way.
And so, what did you say?
What word did you say?
(44:17):
Refining.
Yeah.
Um, I was, when you were sayingthat, I was thinking renovating
Yeah.
You know, so kind of the samething.
Don (44:26):
Yeah.
All right.
Next question.
How has deconstruction for bothof you impacted the way that
you've parented?
Tana (44:36):
I love this question.
Me too.
And you know, I have momentswhere I'm like, I'm a terrible
mother and like, you know, like,when's my son gonna go into
therapy because of me.
Uh, but overall, I actuallythink I've been a really good
mom.
And I actually thinkdeconstruction has a lot to do
(44:56):
with that because I didn't tryto force, we didn't try to force
beliefs on Malcolm and we alsotaught him to question
everything, which was really,really annoying for
Don (45:09):
a while.
it was a great idea until he wasthree and then again when he was
15.
Tana (45:17):
Yeah, yeah.
And, you know, uh, all the kid,although kids ask why a million
times, um, they go through thatstage and then it feels like
they kind of outgrow it.
But, um, He just learned to askbetter questions than why you
know, uh, he asked a lot of whyquestions.
(45:37):
Um, but, but yeah, and, and so Ithink we've, uh, raised a
critical thinker and we alsoraised someone who's very
compassionate.
Uh, he has volunteered in manydifferent ways throughout the
years.
Um, he cares about people andalso there's just so many times
(46:01):
that he'll tell us a story andI'll just be so impressed with
how he handled it.
Like, uh, online gaming, youknow, people can get pretty
gross in that.
And he has a small group offriends where they'll go and see
The word you're looking for istoxic.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they'll, they'll play, Idon't remember what games he
(46:22):
plays online, but like, it'll belike his four friends and then,
um, another group and they playsome, you know, whatever.
And then in the chats, likecertain people will say like,
really jerky, things like that.
Homophobic or racist ormisogynistic or just really
crude or whatever.
And he's like, booted.
(46:42):
Like he just He's like, we don'taccept that language here.
Um, I play Clash of Clans withhim, and I cannot tell you how
many times, uh, he and one ofhis friends who's also like the
co-leader for the, for the clanhave booted people for being
disgusting or, uh, bigot.
Yeah.
You know?
Um, so I think I, we owe a lotof that to not just.
(47:07):
Having prescribed beliefs andtrying to push them off on
Malcolm, including like, oh, youshould be accepting of all
people, right?
I mean, yes, we taught him that,but we also taught him to
question and understand, youknow, come to his own
conclusions.
Don (47:20):
So yeah, I think, I think for me, when I think about that,
it's the process ofdeconstruction and the
willingness to be like, I thinkonce you've been deconstructing
for a while and you start to seesome of the reconstruction, and
you can feel that there's hope,because I think sometimes in
that deconstruction process,you've only done the tearing
(47:41):
apart.
And so you're, you're, you'rewanting that hope so bad, but
when you see some of the wallsstarting to go back up, even
while you're deconstructingsomewhere else, that hope allows
you to become comfortable withtearing down ideas that you
held.
Yeah.
Um, and I think when it comes toMalcolm.
(48:05):
And my, and parenting some ofthe things that I would've
imagined I would've been, as aparent, I held much more
loosely, uh, than I would've inthe past because I recognized
that so many things I was socertain about, I deconstructed
and rebuilt something much morebeautiful.
(48:26):
And so in my parenting, I held alot of that stuff, a lot looser.
Um, and I think even though Ialways imagined myself that I
would be a good father, I thinkI was an even better parent than
I had hoped I would be becauseof the deconstruction process
and learning that it's healthyto tear down preconceived
(48:49):
notions and allow something morebeautiful to arise out of
Tana (48:53):
it.
So I, I think one of the bestthings to come out of that is
that we never saw ourselves as.
like, uh, I don't remember whoit was, but the other day they
were just like, uh, my kids justdo what I say, doesn't matter
what they think.
Authoritarian.
Yeah.
Very authoritarian.
(49:14):
And, and so instead, what we hadwas a, like, we were all
participating as a family inmaking decisions on things.
And that I think that showingrespect to Malcolm was very
important to not making him feellike he just had to do what we,
(49:35):
you know, we told him.
And like, we never, he had alittle bit of a period of time
where he was like kind of pissyabout things, but it was very
short and we never had to dealwith the rebellious teenager, I
hate you slamming doors.
Um, you know, all that stuff.
Uh, he, and I think we did thatbecause we showed him the
(49:58):
respect of not.
being
Don (50:00):
authoritarian.
Yeah.
And I'm not sure how much ofthat was just Malcolm's
disposition versus maybe ourparenting, but I think with,
with it was all our parenting itwas all, I mean, I accept your
rebuke.
It was all our parenting Um, uh,Jerich says it is a very real
challenge when the midst of theanger, fear, uncertainty of
(50:21):
breaking down our assumptionsand comfort zones to not tear
down someone else's structureout of a need for shared
discomfort and anxiety.
Hmm.
Yeah, I think so.
I, I think that that's, that issomething that if I'm not happy,
no one's gonna be happy typething.
Right.
Um, I, I think that thatdefinitely does exist.
(50:44):
Um, yeah.
Marcus says, or even just thefear of loneliness and isolation
that comes with deconstruction,looking out and fearing that you
don't have community to do itwith.
Yeah.
I think that's, that's one ofthe sad things.
I can't express this enough.
I.
wish the church embraceddeconstruction.
(51:06):
Hmm.
And that the church was alwaysopen to reevaluating its stance
on things as new generationswith a history of ideas, a
history of learning fromprevious generations, develop
new ways of seeing God and theworld, um, that should be
(51:30):
embraced instead of taught asfear.
Right?
Like, oh boy, we can't changethe way we view things because
this is the way it's alwaysbeen.
Um, and, and I think that if thechurch actually, instead of,
instead of their garbagediscipleship class, they hold
for six weeks out of, you know,at a time they should probably
(51:51):
hold a deconstruction class.
Like how great would that be ifthe church every like offered.
A deconstruction class wherethey taught people how to ask
better questions, taught peoplehow to, um, investigate
scripture and, um, approachscholarship and, uh, and
(52:14):
actually, um, process and evenhelp them how to process.
Tana (52:19):
I think that would be beautiful.
And, um, the church'sunwillingness to do that reminds
me of, um, toxic masculinity.
How some men feel the need to beoverly masculine and aggressive
to prove that they're manly.
Uh, and so they don't, you know,allow any, uh, questions to
(52:44):
that.
And the church has a similarthing where.
Well, it was connected in mymind, and now I'm, and I'm not
questioning the connection, butanyway, uh, the pastors are so
afraid to not have authoritythat they're unwilling to have
that authority questioned.
(53:05):
Oh, I know where the connectionwas in my mind.
You know, a man who has noproblem, uh, going and buying
tampons for his wife or youknow, holding his girlfriend's
purse or, you know, whatever isa man that is secure in his
masculinity.
Don (53:23):
Right.
Yeah.
I never understood that fearpersonally, because I'm like,
that, that is like, like Idon't, I don't buy into like the
manliness thing and anyone thatknows me well knows that I'm, I
don't fit the standard ofmanliness.
Um, but, uh, you know, the ideaof like buying tampons, like.
(53:48):
That if, like, if you're, ifyou're afraid of cotton packed
in little cool GI Joe missiles,then, then you're, you're the
one that's a scaredy cat.
Tana (54:00):
Um, oh, that's funny.
But, but the same way I'mthinking of a pastor who's
actually comfortable in his ownauthority, if we wanna call it
that, would be willing to letpeople ask questions.
Don (54:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
Jeri says A drowning person willdrag anyone down with them.
Not through malice, but due tounrestrained fear.
I, I certainly, yeah.
Yeah.
And, and again, I think that'swhy we need to have swimming
classes.
We need to offer we need tooffer those types of things to,
(54:33):
I mean, you can't mm-hmm.
you know, having lifeguards at aswimming pool doesn't guarantee
there won't be any drowning, butit does.
Right.
Reduce the fear of it.
and it does reduce the, thepossibility of it.
So, yeah.
Well, Tana, we're all caught upon questions.
I think that means we're done,right?
(54:53):
No.
Oh, okay.
Uh, so, so what would you like,uh, especially in a world where
there's self scanning?
I'm not sure what I, I, I, fifthSunday, I'd love, uh, uh, a
little bit more self scanning.
I'm not sure what you mean.
Yeah.
(55:14):
I don't need, I I have a feelingyou're talking about like, going
through the, uh, grocery store,uh, faith floaties.
Yes.
Yes.
I definitely believe in faithfloaties.
That should be a thing.
So, Tana, um, what, what for youhas been unsaid?
I know there's a lot, uh, butwhat are, what are some things
(55:34):
that have been unsaid, uh, sofar in this conversation that
you'd wanna make sure that.
are, are some things that wewrestle with.
Talk about,
Tana (55:45):
I think now I get
Don (55:50):
this Sunday.
You are on point.
I just was slow on the uptake.
Tana (55:56):
Oh, Amanda has
Don (55:57):
another question.
I saw that.
Okay.
Thanks for doing my job.
Amanda says, do you missanything you shed from
deconstruction?
Tana (56:10):
Uh, I, I did for a while and now I mostly don't, but
sometimes pops back up.
Sometimes I miss that certainty,you know, and it wasn't the, the
problem for me is that it wasn'tmy own certainty.
Right?
I, I just trusted that otherpeople had the answer and, and
(56:36):
so I was like, okay.
That's, that's, that's what Ibelieve.
That's the answer.
Um, and there are times when Ikind of miss, like, I, I just
heard somebody, I think it wasin a TV show I was watching or
something.
There was like, they were like,oh, I miss when I was 18 and I
had life figured out You know,and, and that's kind of how I
(57:00):
feel sometimes of like, oh,sometimes I miss, just like
feeling this certainty that thisis what faith is and this is
what we should believe in, andblah, blah, blah.
And honestly, there are times Imiss the ignorance.
Hmm.
Um, you know, I feel like lifein a lot of ways was easier when
I was very clueless about racismand misogyny and homophobia and
(57:27):
all the pains in the world.
And, you know, and then as soonas I started learning about
those things, it was like, well,now I have to do something about
it.
and that can be very tiring andexhausting and depleting and
demoralizing.
you know, when you constantlysee people harming other people
and so yeah, some, some, I, Idon't actually 100% miss that,
(57:50):
but there are times when I'mlike, life would be so much
easier if I was just like, backin my ignorance as bliss
Don (57:56):
phase.
I, I know how I would answerthis.
I miss being the head of thehousehold.
Tana (58:06):
I'm gonna censor my response.
Don (58:12):
Oh man.
Uh, alright, next question.
People are deconstructingleaving church in droves.
Where do you see hope in thismovement?
Tana (58:25):
I think, I think that people are ready.
To have a more open conversationabout Christianity.
Back when we starteddeconstructing, it was still
pretty rare.
Uh, and we
Don (58:43):
faced, oh yeah, it was, it was the two of us and Brian
McLaren, that was it,
Tana (58:52):
And we faced a lot of opposition and from within the
church especially.
Um, and it was, it's a weirdspot to be in if you think about
it.
Um, because for people whodon't, who are non-religious,
(59:12):
you know, they're just like, oh,you're drinking the Kool-Aid.
And then the people who arefundamentalists are like, you're
not drinking enough Kool-Aid,You know, and I'm just here
going, I don't like Kool-Aid.
But, uh, it, it, it's likeyou're getting it from both
sides, right?
Yeah.
Either you're an idiot forbelieving in God.
or you are a heretic for notbelieving in God
Don (59:36):
properties.
So where's your hope, Where doyou see
Tana (59:38):
hope?
So the hope, I think we'refinally at a point where more
people are open to that.
More people are open to askingthe questions and exploring a
new way forward.
Yeah.
That felt like I was gonna goonto it something else, but that
was the end of my sentence,
Don (59:59):
Well, I would say, you know, the whole question here I
think is important.
People are deconstructing andleaving the church.
Mm-hmm.
And for me, that breaks my heartthat people are leaving the
church.
I, I'm okay with peopleultimately deciding faith is not
any longer something that theyhold and they move on.
(01:00:23):
But I think right now a lot ofpeople see it only as an either
or.
that if I'm deconstructing, Ihave to leave the church.
If I want to stay in the church,I can't deconstruct, and that's
bullshit.
The reality is the church needspeople.
Christianity.
Christianity needs people todeconstruct their faith.
(01:00:47):
That's the only way.
The hope that I find is thatdeconstruction is the future of
the church the same way it wasat the Reformation, the same way
that it was at other majormoments throughout church
history, where there were majorchanges in the way people view
God viewed creation, viewedscripture.
(01:01:08):
Those moments are significantand necessary, and the problem
that the church has hadhistorically is that instead of
embracing it, it fights it.
And I would argue that right nowwe have.
A, a group of people who areasking some of the most
important questions that shouldbe being asked of the church and
(01:01:32):
about the text and aboutdoctrine and dogma.
And instead of, instead ofactually, um, how do I wanna say
it?
Cuz I don't, the last thing I beis sound disparaging to the
people deconstructing these.
That's not where my heart is atall.
But instead of, instead ofpeople thinking that they can
(01:01:52):
stay and believing that they,they are okay to stay and
question, and fight against andpush against those things.
Mm-hmm.
they feel they have to leave.
Right.
And so my hope is in all thisdeconstruction is this is
exactly what the church needsright now.
The church need deconstructionis the gadfly of our generation
(01:02:13):
to bite the church in the ass toget it moving again.
My concern is, is that so manypeople have bought into the
idea, That conservativeinterpretation, politically
conservative interpretation ofthe Bible, hmm, is the,
actually, is actually the trueinterpretation of the Bible.
(01:02:34):
And therefore they have toreject the Bible.
They have to reject God, andthey have to reject Jesus.
And that breaks my heart becausethere, that is the furthest
thing from the truth.
It has been co-opted byconservative, politically
conservative Christians.
And because of that, I have hopethat this deconstruction
process, if enough people stayand deconstruct within the faith
(01:02:58):
that the church is gonna have amajor reformation again.
Uh, and, and I think thatthat's, that could be really
beautiful.
All right.
Uh, what connected you?
What kept you connectedspiritually?
Tana (01:03:14):
I don't think I understand the
Don (01:03:18):
question.
So for me, as I wasdeconstructing and feeling, my
feet were planted in mid-air.
I wasn't sure if there was a Godbecause I didn't believe in hell
I, there I was all of a suddenabandoning so many of my beliefs
that that, and just the, theprocess of it led to, I also
have to determine do I believein God?
(01:03:40):
Um, and for me it was scripture.
Scripture actually is what keptme connected spiritually because
I was able to, and quick teaserhere by the way.
But in the new year, we have asurprise that we're gonna be
rolling out on A J F F, uh, foryou folks that, uh, would be in
(01:04:01):
potentially interested in this.
But I can't tell you all thedetails yet because it's not
public.
So that being said, it was thereading of the text, it was
studying scripture that, um,kept me connected and kept me
spiritual, which I think is sucha.
Would be a surprise to manypeople going through
deconstruction because theythink that's the first thing
(01:04:24):
they have to abandon is thisbook that says that God hates
gay people and God hates, uh,whatever.
Um, and so they think the veryfirst thing they have to abandon
is the scripture.
And for me, that was the verything that kept me connected
spiritually.
Tana (01:04:42):
Ditto.
Don (01:04:44):
right?
Amanda, what did you learn aboutyourselves and each other
through it?
That I'm the best kind ofheretic as what?
Tana learned.
Tana (01:04:59):
Yes.
That's what I learned.
That I think we, I think thatthere were times that was
actually really difficult.
Um, Deconstructing thepatriarchal nature of the
church.
Um, because we had to look atour own marriage and, uh, what
(01:05:20):
we believed versus what wasactually happening because we
were both taught to behave acertain way in heterosexual
relationships.
Mm-hmm.
um, you know, I've always beenthe type that looked to other
people to understand what Ibelieve.
So, um, that was really easy todo in a church, uh, because I'd
(01:05:44):
just be like, wow.
A pastor will tell me and thenI'll just parrot that, you know,
um, right.
And growing and that was a verystrange noise.
Don (01:05:54):
And then I looked away, but I was like, ah.
Tana (01:05:57):
And then growing up it was very much my dad.
I, I was sort of like, well, my,my dad will tell me what to
believe in.
So between the church and mydad, it was, you know, that was
kind of it.
And so then when we got married,I sort of just transferred that
to Don and I was just like,well, he's always gonna have the
right answer and, you know, etcetera, et cetera.
Don (01:06:19):
And then, and now we know that is nowhere
Tana (01:06:22):
near us And then there are moments when I was not, uh, I
did disagree, um, but, but Iwouldn't, maybe I wouldn't say
anything or maybe I would kindof push back a little bit
tentatively.
But, um, my, I would alwaysresort back to that, like head
(01:06:42):
of the household stuff.
And also Don's really good atarguing so that's, that made it
difficult because, you know, hewould offer a logical argument
and I'd go.
Okay.
This still doesn't feel right,but I can't argue against that,
you know, and we had adiscussion at one point where,
uh, Don was like, you know,Tona, you don't have to agree
(01:07:03):
with me all the time.
Right.
You know that I'm okay withthat.
Right.
And you can have your ownopinions, you know that.
Right.
And Don, I hope you don't mindme sharing this, but I remember
Don (01:07:13):
that I don't know what you're gonna share so I can't
answer the question Sure, go forit.
Tana (01:07:18):
I'm gonna just go for it.
Uh, I remember when I finallystarted doing that, you, you
told me later you were like,that was actually really hard
for me.
I wasn't expecting it to
Don (01:07:29):
be difficult because I didn't realize how often you
thought I was wrong.
I know you're laughing aboutthat, but that really was the
complicated thing.
Like early on in ourrelationship, you deferred to me
as, as the head of thehousehold.
And because you deferred to meso much, I was left to imagine.
(01:07:51):
that even if we did disagree orthere would be change in this
process as I, when I told youlike, you know, like, you don't
have to agree with me.
I still thought you'd agree withme the majority of the time And,
but I think we all feel thatway.
Am am I alone thinking that Iwould be, I'm right more often
(01:08:12):
than I'm not.
I, I think that we all kind offeel that way
Tana (01:08:15):
about it.
Well, and I also reinforced thatin you for years,
Don (01:08:18):
right?
A hundred.
I mean, I was bad in a hundredpercent for the first 10 years
of our marriage.
I don't, and then, and then Ijust, I went in this slump for
the next, uh, 16.
I don't know.
Tana (01:08:30):
Well, and I think also, There's a, a bit to that where I
was like, oh, I can have my ownopinion.
And then I was like, I'm gonnashare all the opinions So, you
know, and,
Don (01:08:42):
but I wouldn't trade that at all, by the way.
And I hope, I hope peoplelistening know that like, it was
hard.
It was, it was complicated forme.
But here's the thing.
I'd say there is no way thatthat weirdness and that
difficulty that I went throughwas worse than you Tana always
having to defer to me.
Right?
Right.
It was super complicated for meto process.
(01:09:04):
Um, and it's even humorous tolook back on and, and laugh at,
but it, it was nothing incomparison to what you went
through.
And, uh, and that's, that's ashame.
Tana (01:09:17):
Yeah, I can imagine it would be that way for anybody
in, of course, Noma, in whatever
Don (01:09:20):
gender.
I wasn't saying you uniquely hadit bad.
Tana (01:09:24):
No, no, I just meant it would be difficult if all of a
sudden your partner was like,oh, dis disagreeing you after 10
years of
Don (01:09:32):
you.
Yeah.
So Amanda, one of the things I'dsay that I learned about myself
and each other through it was Iwas not as good of a person as I
thought I was.
And that was hard.
Mm-hmm.
like both in kind of what we'readjusting about a little bit
right now.
The way that I treated Tana, theway I ex had expectations in our
(01:09:58):
relationship, the way I had, um,the way I thought about myself
as a queer person, um, the way Ithought about other queer
people, um, the way that I wouldeven say the way I thought about
race, um, the way I thoughtabout socioeconomic issues.
(01:10:18):
I just was not as good of ahuman.
as my very checklist.
Sin management, fundamentalistChristianity allowed my white
maleness to imagine that I wasHmm.
Um, and that was uniquelydifficult.
(01:10:40):
But I would also sayunbelievably rewarding on the
other side.
Yeah.
To be able to embrace myself asa pansexual male, um, to be able
to, uh, affirm my friends in theLGBTQ community, um, to
(01:11:03):
actually, um, function well inspaces where, uh, whiteness was
not the predominant, uh, Tolearn all those things about
myself.
Um, I think a lot of people aredeconstructing in the church
(01:11:25):
because they were, they firststarted deconstructing in
society.
And that's a shame because thechurch should be what is always
lead, in my opinion.
I think ideally the churchshould be leading that place of
safety, that place of makingsure people are welcome, making
sure people are cared for,making sure people are seen
(01:11:45):
fully as human and the image ofGod.
That seems to be the premise of,of my faith.
Um, but I think a lot of peoplestarted to have these things
happen in life with activism andwith Black Lives Matter.
I think Black Lives Matter is ahuge part and even, um, and even
(01:12:10):
the.
the marriage equality bills andstuff that were passed, right.
Those all, I think took a lot ofpeople into deconstruction of
their faith.
Mm-hmm.
And to me it's sad that ascorrupt as politics are, as
corrupt as, as things can bewithin government, that in a lot
(01:12:33):
of ways our, the government, um,pushed, gave people that nudge.
Um, so, and I would
Tana (01:12:41):
say the shame about that is that the church would say
then that that's culture.
You're interpreting church andapproaching church through
culture, you know, and theywould criticize the
deconstruction from thatstandpoint that you're only
deconstructing because the wokeleft has gotten to you or, or
(01:13:05):
whatever.
It's a,
Don (01:13:06):
it's a straw man argument.
Tana (01:13:07):
Yeah.
And, but what they're notreally.
Recognizing what you said, thatthe church has failed to lead.
Don (01:13:15):
We are at a moment where the sailors with Jonah and the
sailors who are not people ofJewish faith, um, hear God and
react to God better than God'sown prophet.
(01:13:35):
Mm, mm-hmm.
And if you don't wanna know whatI'm talking about, the book of
Jonah is like five pages longRead it.
The, the, the gentile, the pagansailors who used lots who, who
rolled dice to determine who wasat fault for the storm.
(01:13:57):
Honored Jonah.
When they showed that Jonah wasthe reason for the fault of the
storm, instead of throwing Jonahoverboard, they threw away all
their live.
They threw away all the goodsthat they were transporting,
they were gonna lose everything.
But they protected Jonah.
They behaved more like God thanthe prophet of God.
(01:14:17):
And let me just say that I thinkthat that's a moment we're at
right now in history.
The church is Jonah.
God is called the church to beprophetic, to do important
things to bring salvation.
And when I say salvation, I meansafety to people.
And the church hasn't done it.
And so the example that we'reliving in right now is we're
(01:14:40):
seeing the rest of the worldbehave the way that the church
should have just naturally doneit.
Yeah.
All right.
I don't get to say this often atan end of a call in an
interview, but babe, do you haveanything else you wanna share?
Tana (01:14:58):
uh, man.
I feel like there's so much, butI'm having trouble, um, kind of
digging through all of my, allof my thoughts to come up with a
like, oh, we didn't talk aboutthis.
You know?
Don (01:15:15):
Um, I imagine, although, you know, the person that does
the scheduling for this, so youcould probably find your way
back on
Tana (01:15:23):
That's probably true.
I, I think I would just addthat, um, reiterate that going
through deconstruction with an,uh, a community is probably the
best way with at least one otherperson is good as well.
I think having to do it all onyour own will just make you feel
(01:15:44):
more isolated and, uh, cuzyou're already gonna feel
isolated because of your.
You know, you're already gonnafeel isolated because you are
rejecting the teachings of yourparticular church or, or, or
whatever.
Yeah.
Um, and I would also, I reallythink some, there is a missing
(01:16:07):
ingredient for a lot of people,which is the, going back to
scripture.
I think that's what saved us inthis.
Um, I do too.
And, and PE people feel likethey have to, they have to
jettison scripture because theywere told that this scripture
says this, and so therefore it'sall bad when there, a lot of
times the reality is no peoplein power wanted to stay in power
(01:16:31):
and they wanted to continue tooppress people because it was
good for them.
The people in power, not for theoppressed people.
Uh, and so they, I mean, thinkabout the fact that the Bible
wasn't even available to beread.
by the commoner, you know, for areally long time.
And so the ch so the church, thechurch leaders who were often
(01:16:55):
in, in, uh, cahoots with the,the state, you know, so to
speak, uh, were telling peoplewhat the, what this Bible said.
We have this word of God andwe're gonna tell you what it
says.
So to, to imagine that thosepeople were really like, I don't
know.
Don (01:17:16):
So, so Tana, a lot of high schools have done some pretty
shitty interpretations of Romeoand Juliet, yet we have not
rejected Shakespeare.
Right, right.
And there's a lot of churchesthat have done some pretty
shitty interpretations of theBible.
(01:17:36):
Yeah.
And I hope that we don't rejectGod because of that.
And I think some people aregonna come to that conclusion
and I embrace that and I wantthem to do what's best for their
health and their wellbeing.
But I don't think it's a given.
And I think unfortunately a lotof people, they begin the
deconstruction process and Ithink a lot of people have in
(01:17:57):
their mind that the likelihoodis I walk away.
Mm-hmm.
as opposed to the likelihood isI stay, but with something
profoundly different and morebeautiful.
Tana (01:18:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think sometimes even justhaving it in the mind that you
can walk away even if you don'tultimately walk away Yeah.
Is freeing.
It's
Don (01:18:18):
absolutely freedom.
Yeah.
You're not trapped.
Yeah.
All right friends.
Well I have been so grateful foryou hanging out with us this
whole time, Tana.
Yeah, it was fun.
Um, and I wanna just a quickshout out.
It's not fair to do in the lastfive minutes when only a few
people are still hanging on,but.
Tana is absolutely at the heartof a J F F.
Without Tana, we do not scheduleguests without Tana.
(01:18:42):
We do not have social mediawithout Tana.
We do not have edited podcastswithout Tana.
Basically, we don't have a Jfff.
So Tana, I am so unbelievablygrateful to you.
You are, you are listening to meand you are a blessing to the
community.
And thank you for all the workyou do behind the scenes and
(01:19:03):
particularly tonight.
Thank you for sharing yourwisdom and your beauty of
intelligence and care andcompassion for people.
I'm so grateful to you.
Tana (01:19:13):
You are way too kind.
But thank you, I enjoyed it.
It was.
Don (01:19:17):
Awesome.
All right folks.
Well, if, uh, if you want checkout all of our different social
media places, feel free to swingby Buy me a coffee.com/aj fff if
you'd like to support the showat all.
Also, check out our website, uh,ancient jesus future faith.com,
as well as our YouTube channelbeyond this, because we have
(01:19:38):
lots of shorts, we have lots of,uh, our podcast are put there.
And please check out, uh,wherever you get podcasts.
And please rate us and give us acomment.
Be honest, even if it's a onestar, no star, we would love to
have you still rate and comment.
All right, friends, I hope youhave a beautiful night and I
will hopefully see you Monday.
(01:19:59):
Bye
Tana (01:20:01):
bye.
Hi, this is Tanya from agentJesus, future faith.
(00:02):
We are off this week, but as aspecial bonus for our audio
podcast listeners, we areincluding here today.
The audio from our YouTube livestream discussion on
deconstruction.
This is a conversation Don and Ihad about our deconstruction
journey.
Plus we answered some questionsfrom our viewers.
(00:24):
We hope you enjoy it and we'llbe back with you soon with our
normally scheduled programming
Don (00:29):
all right.
So Tana, uh, let's get into theconversation.
So the conversation is aboutdeconstruction.
Something that you and I havedone, and we had some
interesting conversations in thelast several days actually
about, um, kind of how, uh, wedid this.
We did deconstruction before itwas cool.
(00:52):
Yeah, we did.
And, uh, and so for some, for alittle bit, I think we
overlooked the impact of a lotof people that are going through
deconstruction now.
Like we, we kind of, weoverlooked it a little bit.
Um, so what, if you don't mind,share, if you'd be willing to
share a little bit about thattime in our life when the
(01:16):
deconstruction kind of startedto happen.
Tana (01:21):
Um, yeah.
So I was terrified honestlybecause I was pregnant with
Malcolm at the time.
Don was the college pastor at abig megachurch.
And, um, we were still veryThanks Franklin.
(01:42):
Um, and we were still, uh, westill believed in a lot of more
kind of conservative,traditional complimentarian,
like that kind of stuff.
And one day Don came over andvisited me at work and he's
like, can we go for a walk?
(02:03):
You know, I was like, sure.
Don (02:05):
He started never a good start to a conversation,
Tana (02:08):
we need to talk.
And uh, he was just started kindof laying out this whole, like,
things he had been thinkingabout and then this vision too
of where he's like, I want ourhouse to be a place where people
can just come and go almostwhenever they want.
Don (02:24):
That wasn't deconstruction, that was just bad
Tana (02:26):
boundaries.
Yeah, that was, that was, butbut it was a mix all into the
conversation.
So it's like entwined in mymind, right.
And um, I'm listening and I'mtrying to be supportive and then
he left and I was like, oh mygosh, my husband's a heretic.
And I completely freaked out.
But at the same time, I hadalways had these questions in
(02:49):
the back of my mind.
Like there would be times Iwould try to tow the party line,
so to.
Um, and, and be like, okay, wellthis is something we're supposed
to believe.
Um, and so I'm gonna say Ibelieve it.
And then in the back of my mindI'd be like, I don't really
believe this.
And I never understood a lot ofthe, um, hedges people put
(03:13):
around scripture.
I didn't understand some of therules.
Um, uh, there, the obsessionwith all things sex and like how
much that was pushed at us,especially as teenagers of, you
know, there's this specific typeof marriage and you can have sex
within that marriage, and theneverything else is sin, you
(03:34):
know, and, and the, thehomophobia didn't sit well with
me.
And, you know, there was allkinds of things that I had had
questions about, but I wastaught that questions were
wrong.
And so, I would have thesequestions, but then I'd be like,
oh, I'm, I'm bad for havingthese questions.
I'm, I'm doubting and Ishouldn't doubt and blah, blah,
(03:54):
blah.
Um, so yeah.
So that was, that was kind ofthe terrifying start of
Don (04:02):
all that.
So how, what would you say thenwas kind of your first foray?
Because, because really whatyou're describing there is I had
started my deconstructionprocess and I think one time
you, I was explaining to someoneabout the beauty of
understanding Judaism andunderstanding Christianity
(04:24):
through the context of Judaism.
And I said, it's like, you know,many of us, we grew up standing
on the beach looking at theocean and understanding
Christianity through the lens ofJudaism, uh, was like going out
and putting on a snorkel andgoing underwater.
And you kind of described theprocess of, of me getting you to
that place.
But I would argue that.
(04:44):
That time was verytransformational for me.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, so it was bothdeconstruction because I was
finding this new way to read thetext mm-hmm.
and cause of that I wasdeconstructing at the same time
that I was discovering thisamazing space.
And you said yes.
Yeah.
It's wonderful for everyone, butDon kind of grabbed my head and
(05:05):
dunked me under the water.
Tana (05:06):
Yeah.
I felt like you were just like,look what's down here And you
know?
And I was like, but I can'tbreathe.
Uh, so it felt very sudden anddisorienting and, and all of
that.
But then, you know, after westarted to kind of go through
the process, um, it was veryfreeing, but I was also very
(05:27):
angry.
Um, we were attending a solidlyevangelical church and there had
been so many things that hadbeen said and taught at that
church that.
Really harmed me, um, and harmedDon and harmed a lot of other
people I'm sure.
And so I just, yeah.
(05:49):
I started, kind of started to,to get angry about like, feeling
like I was lied too.
Yeah.
And, and that's difficultbecause I don't, I do think
there are people who weaponizeChristianity and weaponize a
certain interpretation of theBible, but I think there are a
(06:10):
bunch of other people who trulybelieve these things that I see
as harmful.
Sure.
And so in some way I felt likemy anger was justified.
But in other, like later, lateron I was like, well, they
actually believe this.
Don (06:28):
Like, yeah.
It reminds me of like, who's toblame for believing that uh, the
sun goes around the earth.
Uh, right.
Like who's to blame prior tothat becoming common knowledge
that it's the other way around.
And I, that's one of the thingsI find the most complicated with
(06:48):
the deconstruction processes.
It's almost hard to know who tobe angry at because Yeah.
People were just grew up in asetting that this was just true
and Right.
They didn't have the, you know,credentials or the ability to
argue for something else in avalid way against it.
Mm-hmm.
(07:09):
And so, you know, at what point,who is who is at fault?
And I feel like that for a lotof people is a really
complicated space in this is, isknowing who, who do I hold
accountable for this?
Tana (07:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's really hard and Ithink that's what makes it
difficult for people to, um, beat different places in the
process.
Yes.
Uh, because, you know, sodeconstruction is kind of having
(07:45):
a moment right now.
Right.
And you and I were talking theother day about how we're like,
this is so interesting cuz wedid this like 20 years ago.
And so it's just not really onthe top of our minds anymore.
Um, not because we think thereconstruction process is
completely finished, but justbecause that just wasn't, I
(08:07):
don't know, it just, it happenedso long ago to do the
deconstruction process that itdidn't seem as, I don't know,
relevant or something.
And now I'm just seeingdeconstruction everywhere and
I'm like, oh
Don (08:18):
yeah, me this you sent me this article today that had this
mm-hmm.
Now this is from the GospelCoalition, which is firmly
against deconstruction.
But it's interesting, visa saysas of today there are 290 3026
posts on Instagram utilizing thehashtag deconstruction.
(08:38):
Now my guess is that that numberis exponentially larger because
I think this article is fromlike April or something to that
effect.
I think it might have beenFebruary actually.
Okay.
So, but it says, you know, thevast majority are from people
who've deconverted fromChristianity become progressive
Christians embrace same sexmarriage and relationships,
rejected core historic doctrinesof the faith or are on a mission
(09:01):
to crush the white Christianpatriarchy.
I have to say at that point Ithink they nailed it.
That's exactly what's happening.
That is, yeah, exactly.
Now they make that a bad thing,but I'm like, I feel seen right?
Like that, that yes, that ishappening.
Um, and just a plethora ofinsults, mockery and anger Hurd
(09:21):
at the church along with memestating I regret saving myself
from marriage and good morning.
It's great to leave your nonaffirming church.
Um, So I, I think that that's,you know, you said that it's
having a moment and right thereis, there's a huge amount of
hashtags out there fordeconstruction.
(09:42):
I think one of the, the thingsthat is not necessarily helpful
to people is that they don'tknow where to go for guidance
amidst it.
Tana (09:56):
Right.
Don (09:58):
Right.
Because there's no, there's nounified voice because everyone's
process is different.
So I think, feel, my perceptionis from the outside looking in,
that you have a lot of peoplethat used to have their feet
firmly planted in their faithand their understanding of God
now firmly planted with theirfeet in midair and they, and it
(10:21):
feels unrecoverable, right.
So, So what are your thoughtsabout, um, how did you handle
that?
Tana (10:37):
That's a good question.
Oh, man.
How did I handle
Don (10:47):
the, the feeling of this?
Yeah, I, I mean, the feeling ofyour feet being firmly planted
in mid-air with nothing solid tograsp.
Tana (10:56):
Yes.
Imagine, imagine it's all rage.
Um, it's, I'm trying toremember.
Cause it was so long ago.
I, you know, it was very, um,unmooring.
It was, I, I wrote an article alittle bit.
(11:19):
I don't know, maybe in the lastcouple months or something where
I talked about how constantgaslighting throughout my life,
uh, has led to me feeling likean unreliable narrator in my own
story.
You know, because it wouldconstantly be like, that's not
what happened.
This is what happened, and thatwasn't my fault.
It was your fault.
(11:40):
And like, you know, everythingwas my problem.
Nothing was ever anybody else's
Don (11:46):
problem, you know?
And, and the church uses thephrase, uh, you like, what
tickles your ears to do thatsame thing,
Tana (11:53):
right?
Yeah.
Well, and then there's all theBS about, um, like the impurity
culture where it was like, well,boys will be boys and we just
kind of expect them to havethese sexual urges, urges, but
it, so it's girls responsibilityto, you know, remain chased and
to do as much as we can to nottempt the boys or allow them to.
(12:19):
Engage in their urges.
I don't know.
It was always put on the youngwomen.
So, um, in a way that was, itwas a much the same feeling
where I felt like I had beenlied to in a lot of ways.
And so then I was like, well,what's true and what isn't true?
(12:42):
Yes.
And, and then, and you're alsotold, we talked about this a
little bit, um, in our podcastepisode on emotions where we
talked about that the heart isdeceitful above all things
verse, and so you're taught notto trust your emotions.
And so it was also kind of thatlike, well, can I trust?
(13:06):
Like, this feels wrong, thisfeels negative.
Can I trust that feeling?
Since my previous pastors havealways told me X, Y, Z.
Don (13:17):
Yeah.
And, you know, go ahead.
I'm
Tana (13:19):
sorry.
I was just gonna say it was, itwas very difficult at times to
not have a touchstone for that,which is why I really
appreciated the level of Biblestudy that you do.
Because it did, it wasn't quiteto that point yet when we were
(13:40):
still at the megachurch.
But then when we moved on fromthe megachurch, you really
started to like teach people howto study the Bible and, and, and
all the different methods youtaught us and all the different,
different digging to scripture.
It felt like it helped to me tofind solid
Don (13:58):
ground.
Yeah, me too.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Tana (14:02):
Yeah.
Did that mess
Don (14:04):
up what you were gonna ask her?
I, it's irrelevant now.
Um, but that's fine.
Um, the, The thing for me, kindof what you were saying about
not having a touchstone for me,when as I started
deconstructing, I started toquestion some of the things that
I had been taught.
I realized that I either had togo back to the text to, uh, to
(14:31):
see if that's what the text wassaying or if that's how somebody
was interpreting it and tellingme.
Right.
And that became huge for mebecause as I started going back
and started looking at evenolder interpretations of the
Bible and the older I keptgetting, the further back I kept
(14:52):
going in history tointerpretation of the text, the
more affirmed my views felt.
Yeah.
And the more the modern churchfell short of some of the oldest
ways of reading the.
Yeah.
And so for me it was, it, the,the very thing that felt like
became unhinged from me becamemy anchor.
(15:12):
Um,
Tana (15:14):
and, and that's something that was very interesting, uh,
as part of this whole processwas to learn a little bit about
that church history.
Because once I learned that ourcurrent, um, sort of more
fundamentalist, evangelical,conservative kind of view of
(15:35):
Christianity, that has been sortof the prevailing view for the
last, well, all my whole life,um, was not developed until like
300 years ago
Don (15:48):
Right.
And, and, and done in chunks 500years at a time since past that.
Tana (15:54):
Yeah.
And, and it's like, oh, why am Ifeeling like this is the, like
all time truth?
if it, if that hasn't been theway that the scripture has been
interpreted for hundreds ofyears.
Like it's, it's a fairly moderninvention
Don (16:15):
so to speak.
Well, you and I have found it,uh, it clear in some of the
things that we were readingthat, uh, if, if you agree with
the changes that were made inchurch history, then you're a
reformer.
If you agree with the changesthat people want to make in
religion, then they'redeconstructionist.
(16:38):
Mm-hmm.
And so I think it's interesting.
I, I, I almost wish that itwasn't too late.
I mean, that, that's, thathashtag is gone.
It's set sail.
It's gonna be deconstruction.
It's not reformed.
Reforming faith.
People won't, yeah, we won't getthat.
But I do think that there is aspace in which instead of
(16:58):
talking about deconstruction, Ormaybe as well as talking about
deconstruction.
We can talk about reforming thefaith.
Mm-hmm.
And that that's what we arewanting to do.
We want to reform Christianity,not we want to, uh, you know,
destroy it.
Which is what I think people whoare uncomfortable with, people
(17:20):
deconstructing think that that'swhat they want to do, is that
people want to destroyChristianity, destroy Jesus.
And it's, the truth is, no, wejust want to destroy your church
well in the end.
And
Tana (17:33):
not Jesus.
The, the result for some peopleis to leave the church.
The, the result for some peopleis to leave the church and to
leave faithful together.
That's what's helping.
And so I think that's, I thinkthat's scary for some people.
Don (17:45):
Absolutely.
Um, especially as some of thestuff being deconstructed is
eternal, uh, destinations.
Right.
And so, You know, if peopleleave the church, the people
that they're leaving andabandoning, so to speak, to move
on to something else, thosepeople that are still standing
left behind, um, are are worriedabout that person's salvation.
(18:11):
Um, so yeah.
Let's do a couple questions, ifyou don't mind.
From the church.
Yeah,
Tana (18:15):
yeah.
I
Don (18:15):
was just thinking that.
Yeah.
All right.
What have you gained sincedeconstruction and
reconstruction?
Tana (18:26):
I think, um, very generally speaking, I have been
more able to understand why Ibelieve what I believe Before it
was more so just parroting.
What I thought I was supposed tobelieve, and then if I had
(18:48):
questions about it, I reallywasn't supposed to ask those.
And even though there was alwaysthat you should always have a
reason for your beliefs.
I don't remember the exactphrasing.
I was like, I don't, I don't, ifI'm really probed on this, I
don't think I could defend it,you know?
Hmm.
Which unfortunately for me, I'mstill kind of bad at that, but
it's no longer because I haven'texplored it.
(19:11):
It's because I'm very bad atremembering the details of, uh,
of, uh, an idea.
Like once I reach a conclusion,I'm like, okay, all of this
stuff has led me here, and thenI'll forget all the the
Don (19:25):
stuff that led you there, just you recipe.
Tana (19:29):
Yes.
I'm just like, here's thechocolate cake.
But I don't remember how I gothere.
But, um, yeah, so I, I would saythough I am still better at
defending than I was before.
I'm just not as good at it assay Don.
Don (19:44):
So, so here's, here's my question about that though.
Tana is, I mean, that's not theobligation.
Your obligation is not to answerto other people.
The, my question then for youis, are you more satisfied about
your understanding of what youbelieve now?
Right.
It's not about whether or notyou can defend it to, you know,
(20:05):
Joe Schmoe, who actually is notinterested in being convinced of
your view.
They're just, they just wannaargue with you and prove a point
against your view.
Probably true your job.
You're not responsible for themor even to them to give them
that information.
So right.
When I'm hearing you talk, itsounds to me, and I don't wanna
(20:27):
put words in your mouth, but itsounds to me like you're saying
you now have a better sense ofwhy you believe the things you
believe regardless of whether ornot you can articulate them, uh,
compellingly to someone else.
Tana (20:40):
Yeah.
I think that I definitely have abetter understanding of my
beliefs and I'm also way morecomfortable with uncertainty and
gray areas.
Mm-hmm.
And in fact, to me, um, one ofthe questions that was always
kind of rattling around in mybrain before was like, well if
God, cuz I was always taught Godis omnipotent, God is so much
(21:03):
greater than we are and God isbeyond Bo all understanding.
But then everybody sounded socertain about what God would do,
what God, you know, what God wastrying to teach us, what you
know, whatever.
And, and I remember thinkingthat doesn't seem to add up.
And so now I can.
(21:24):
I can sit comfortably in thisknowledge that if God is, you
know, almighty and this creatorand so much bigger than us, and
you know, then how ridiculous isit for us to think we can
(21:44):
understand every single thingthat, you know, that anything in
the Bible or or, or whatever andand a more comfortable kind of
sitting in that and going, well,there's no way I could possibly
understand all of this, and somaybe I'll find out when I die.
(22:04):
I don't know.
But I feel like I was gonna sayanother thing, but it just went
right
Don (22:09):
outta my head.
That's all right.
If it comes back, we'll loopback to it.
So, okay.
For me, I'd say one of thethings I gained was peace.
Like the deconstruction andreconstruction process before
deconstruction.
I, I felt like I was a, youknow, I was a person in the
(22:30):
hands of an angry God.
I felt like I was a spider beingdangled over the, the bonfire,
like, you know, Jonathan Edwardstalks about, that's, that's the
god that I was raised toimagine.
And there's no peace.
So when Jesus says, come to meall who are weary and heavy
laden and find rest I that, thatwas unfamiliar, uh, I how do you
(22:54):
feel rest terrified that at anymoment you're going to screw up
everything and Right.
God's plan for your life, you'regonna screw up, you know,
whatever it might be.
And, and this is my journey, somaybe other people didn't have
it quite as harsh as that, but Ifelt like I was always on a
tightrope.
So for me, in a lot of ways,especially as a teacher, because
(23:15):
I was pastoring even in that,from that mindset, And as a
pastor, you know, people willquote the passage that says, you
know, teachers will be judgedmore harshly.
Um, which by the way just meanspeople that give advice on
behalf of God will be judged forwhether or not that advice is
godly And it better be if you'regonna give that advice.
So a lot of pastors should benervous by that passage.
(23:37):
Um, but it ha it has given me alot of peace, right?
So I'd say that's the biggestthing I gained is I'm
comfortable with what I don'tknow.
I love what I know or what Ibelieve, and in the midst of all
that, I have great peace aboutmy faith.
Um, so yeah.
I hope that was helpful, Amanda.
Okay.
(23:57):
Jerich says, what do you see asthe end goal of the
deconstruction process?
Tana (24:07):
Hmm.
I think, I think it's differentfor everybody.
But I think the, maybe thecommonality is that sense of
peace that you just mentionedon, um, at the ending of torture
(24:28):
cuz so many people are, um, likementally and emotionally
tortured in the church andthere's so much religious trauma
out there.
And so the deconstructionprocess usually allows people to
unpack that trauma Yeah.
(24:49):
And to determine whether or notthey still want to be in a faith
context after experiencing thattrauma.
And then for others it's justunpacking harmful beliefs or um,
uh, things that just didn't sitquite well.
And so I think the goal isbetter understanding.
(25:16):
of why you believe, what youbelieve, resolving the cognitive
dissonance.
That's a good way of putting it,Amanda.
Um, and I think also maybe, uh,more grace and mercy towards
others.
(25:36):
I, I feel like most people aredeconstructing from a pretty
stringent interpretation of theBible and of what it means to be
a Christian.
And it's very judgemental.
Even though people wouldconstantly say, judge, not less
you be judged, but then like,then in the next breath they'd
be like, these people are goingto hell.
(25:58):
And uh, and so once you've gonethrough deconstruction, at least
most of the people I know whohave gone through it, they're
way more merciful.
Um, and way more open to, yeah,like doors of the church and the
doors to heaven are open toeverybody.
I do think most of us go througha period and it's longer for
(26:18):
some people than others of beingpissed off uh, fundamentalist
Christians and evangelicals andpeople who are really strident
about their faith.
And sometimes that doesn't goaway and sometimes it does.
Um, yeah.
But
Don (26:34):
yeah.
So two, two quick thoughts.
One is you mentioned abouttrauma.
Um, something for you all tolook forward to in January, Dr.
Dwayne Wood is gonna be on and,um, medical doctor.
And one of the topics that we'rehoping that we'll talk about
that night is how religioustrauma impacts our bodies.
(26:58):
Um, so something to keep an eyeout.
I think he's coming on January17th.
I don't remember, to be honest.
19 something like that.
Sometime in the mid-January.
So watch out for that.
Uh, that should be wonderful.
Second of all, there's a newermovie that, I don't know if
you've seen Tana, um, wherethey, they're like on this
(27:19):
journey and during the journeythey're, they're like, um,
they're meeting people along theway.
They're growing in theirunderstanding of how things
work, um, and they arrive.
But about partway through themovie, it changes from black and
white to technical.
Um, uh, the Wizard of Oz, Ithink is what it's called.
(27:40):
Um, brand New flick just cameout, catch it on Netflix.
And I think about that for likethe deconstruction process.
When you finally havedeconstructed and you start
rebuilding, it's like you'rerebuilding in color.
And in that, yeah, in thatexperience of rebuilding, you're
seeing the beauty, but you'realso.
(28:02):
Hurt because why weren't youalways building with color?
Right?
And so there's a little bit ofanger, but there's also some
celebration.
But then you start to seeeverything else in color, and so
then you, you have joy towardsthat.
I, I think that there's just areally powerful piece with that
reconstruction process.
Yeah.
All right.
(28:22):
You ready for the next question?
It's a part one.
So Franklin asks, I think thatdeconstruction has become one of
those words that has lost itsdirect meaning and become
whatever negative concept peoplewant or need it to be.
Do you think there's a way forus to recapture the
transformative heart ofdeconstruction and the reality
(28:43):
that everyone does it at onepoint or another in their lives?
Tana (28:48):
Hmm.
Yeah.
It.
I think any, any kind ofbuzzword like that is gonna have
multiple meanings depending on,you know, who's using it and
why.
Uh, so yeah, I think, uh, it's,yeah, I, I, I think there are a
(29:10):
lot of people who arepurposefully trying to make it
negative.
Uh, I was reading some articlestoday and it was very much like
beware the deconstructionprocess and their descriptions
of the deconstructdeconstruction process were,
were very straw man.
You know, like, um,deconstruction is inherently bad
(29:31):
and people who were doing itdon't, don't care about Jesus
and don't use the Bible as aguide and blah, blah, blah.
Um, so yeah.
So I think there's somedifferent meanings out there
about, I love the idea of, um,how did you put it?
Recapture the transformativeheart, um, and the reality.
Everyone does it at one point oranother in their lives.
(29:53):
I think we are actually at thismoment in Christianity where if
we can just get enough peopletogether to have the right
conversations, um, we have theopportunity to build a
beautiful, wonderful faithmoving forward.
I think that deconstruction ispart of that.
(30:17):
I think deconstruction is havinganother moment right now, mainly
because of the, uh, of Trumpismkind of getting into
evangelicalism and then
Don (30:29):
mega evangelicalism,
Tana (30:33):
mag Mag, I can't remember that.
Um, and the sort of marriage ofthe political.
With Evangelicalism.
Uh, I mean, just, I just saw athing today that said, you know,
an exit polls, whiteevangelicals mostly voted for
Herschel Walker, which if youlook, you know, on paper and you
(30:54):
go, oh, Christians are againstlike, extramarital sex and
abortions and all this otherstuff, like, which were all
things that Herschel Walker had,and he literally lost to a
minister, you know, So it'slike, okay.
Um, so I think that's like awhole new movement in
(31:16):
deconstruction that has a littlebit more, uh, thorniness to it
because it's become politicaland has a lot of, um, a lot more
trauma in it because it'sjoining, joining with policy
that's affecting people's lives,you know?
Don (31:34):
Yeah.
I I think we can also all kindof agree that anytime you're
doing anything as a re action,it tends to not be the best of
the responses that could happen.
Right, right.
And yeah.
And so I think that part of theway that deconstruction, the
concept of deconstruction andreconstruction becomes
(31:58):
redeemable, or I don't even knowthat it needs to be redeemed,
but it becomes a lesscatchphrase and basically
meaning right bash, uh, thechurch and bash Christianity,
right?
Is to actually create space inwhich people can safely
deconstruct.
The problem is, is that a lot ofpeople that have begun the
(32:18):
deconstruction process do nothave a safe place to do it.
And because of that, it, youhave to do whatever you can to
shake free of this snake on aplane.
And, uh, you'll use the F wordif you have to.
Right, right.
And so, like, I think there'spart of that whole process that
there's just not a safe place todeconstruct.
(32:40):
And until we create safe placesto deconstruct mm-hmm.
um, people are going to abandoneverything as opposed to Right.
Um, be able to pause in a safeplace, evaluate the things that
have caused harm.
Mm-hmm.
eliminate those, inspect those,build upon those mm-hmm.
(33:02):
without re having to rejecteverything, um mm-hmm.
And then later on in life,possibly try to pick up some of
those pieces.
Um, so I don't know if that washelpful, Franklin, but I think
Tana (33:14):
I had something to add though.
I, um, to, to that what I wassaying about how we're kind of
in this moment, I think rightnow that offers a lot of
opportunity is there are a lotof people going, deconstructing
and trying to explore if theywanna stay with their faith or
if they don't.
And if they do, what does thatmean?
(33:35):
Where can they go?
Um, how do they rebuild thisfaith and what's new about it?
What parts of evangelicalism dothey jettison and which ones do
they keep?
Um, things like that.
And if we could get everybodykind of on the same page about,
um, releasing like dogma and,and doctrine, I think we have
(33:59):
this beautiful moment where wecan build a new future for the
Christian faith that isn't somuch based on, okay, do you
believe these.
particular things.
All right.
You're the right kind ofChristian.
Right.
Um, if we could somehow jointogether and have, I mean, we,
we could have this big beautifultent that we're all
Don (34:20):
under, you're describing Evangelicalism.
Tana (34:24):
It, that's what it was.
That's what originally was.
It was meant to be that bigtent, uh, read David Gussie's
book after Evangelicalism to, tolearn more.
And it, it was meant to be sortof like this big beautiful tent.
But then they start, theystarted to have like these,
like, oh, these, um, sholis of,you know, whether or not you
were a, a true Christian, youknow?
(34:46):
Yeah.
And if we could move away fromthat Yep.
And, and then we would have aspace in which it is safe for
people to deconstruct.
Don (34:55):
All right.
You ready for the next question?
Sure.
is it possible to have gonethrough deconstruction
unconsciously?
I'm, I'm gonna guesssubconsciously I you might be
doing it unconsciously, I dunnoif so, is it possible for a
healthy reconstruction fromthere?
Uh, or would someone have to beintentional in another
(35:17):
deconstruction?
Just so you know, fifth Sunday,I always say unconscious when I
mean subconscious.
So I felt seen by you sayingthat.
Tana (35:29):
Thanks for affirming Don.
Yes, I need it.
Um, I don't know.
Don, do you wanna take this one?
I don't.
Yeah,
Don (35:38):
I, I, I think it absolutely is possible to subconsciously go
through it, um, to, becausemaybe one of the areas I would
say is LGBTQ inclusion, right?
Where a friend comes out to youand that friend is a Christian,
or they're, maybe they're noteven, but.
You now have to see the beautyof that human that you've loved
(35:59):
for all these years.
And you have to begin wrestlingwith what does it mean to still
love them, care for them, seevalue in them, see value in
their relationships andeverything.
And so that would be asubconscious deconstructing in
my opinion there.
I imagine there's many otherways you hear, uh, a woman teach
and she's powerful and she, whatshe says is impactful.
(36:21):
And so now you have to start towrestle with, wait, I thought
women were not supposed to be inthis position of power or
authority, but yet this personclearly is anointed in some way.
And so you might begin tosubconsciously deconstruct.
What I would encourage someoneto do that if they did do some
of the subconsciousdeconstruction and started
reconstructing is that they findsomeone that they trust who has
(36:46):
gone through the process to justcheck their work.
Um, you know, like, you know,just have someone look over the,
your paper and and pure editingYeah.
And I, and I, and I don't knowhow to say that without it maybe
coming across that you can'ttrust yourself cuz I don't mean
that, I just mean it's alwaysgood in that situation,
especially if you did itunintentionally to have someone
(37:10):
else that maybe has already gonethrough the process come, come
through and be like, okay, sotell me more about what you
experienced when you wereengaging this friend of yours
who came out and you were tryingto wrestle with what that meant
and how did you come to a changeof mind.
And then possibly that hopefullythat person can give you places
(37:30):
to shore up that view p they cangive you.
And it's not to like poke holesin your view.
It's more so to give you help toanchor it more securely.
Um, so that's, that's kind ofwhat I would recommend.
Tana (37:43):
Yeah.
I think, um, What was reallyhelpful for our process, process
is that one, we had each other,but two, we ended up with a
community of people whobasically, when we left the
megachurch followed you.
Yeah.
Um, because we were sort ofbeginning to deconstruct within
(38:05):
that college group, but wedidn't, I don't think we really
knew that,
Don (38:09):
you know, we would've never called it
Tana (38:11):
that.
Right.
We, yeah.
Uh, and so a bunch of peoplefollowed you and so we had this
little community of peoplethrough different iterations of
churches where everybody hadthese same questions.
Yeah.
They're like, I don't feelcomfortable with this anymore.
And, you know, um, and honestly,uh, the, the, I have such a,
(38:33):
like a good old days feelingabout that you know?
Um, because it was very excitingbecause everybody was.
Not, it wasn't just this likequestion authority, like kind of
a thing, but it was more solike, we're on this exciting
adventure together.
Yeah.
You know, it was invigorating,honestly.
Don (38:55):
Marcus says, I remember when I first met Don, oops.
He asked me questions about myfaith that made me cry.
That's my unofficial, officialstart to deconstruction.
Terrifying So, Marcus, I, Iactually want to ask your, for
your forgiveness, because Idon't think that at that point
in my own journey, I washonoring people as much as I
(39:18):
would like to imagine I do now.
Hmm.
Um, in some ways I liked beingthe person that kind of pushed
buttons.
Um, I still do, but I think I'm,I'm a little bit more careful
about it, um, than what I was inthe past because thankfully, Uh,
(39:39):
Marcus, you and I continued afriendship in a relationship and
we walked through hopefully alot of those things and it
wasn't nearly as terrifying, butI, but I can tell you that if at
that point, cuz I remembersitting in the coffee shop that
made me feel like I was in alittle girl's, uh, dollhouse or
a little girl I don't rememberwhat the coffee shop's name was,
(40:01):
but, um, but I, if, if at thatmoment you would've walked away
and never, you and I nevertalked again, I would've done a
huge disservice to you probably.
And, uh, that was not healthy ofme to do.
So, uh, hopefully, hopefullyyou've come out the other side.
Well and good.
(40:22):
Uh, so Marcus asks, is there anend to de construction?
Does it ever end?
Should it ever end?
I feel like this is kind of aneasy question.
Well, now
Tana (40:33):
I feel like we should change
Don (40:37):
I'm just gonna say, I'm gonna say, uh, there's never an
end to deconstruction and shouldit ever Nextdoor Bake
Tana (40:43):
Shop.
Sorry, Sorry.
I was, tell Marcus's comment.
I was trying to remember thename of the, the place too.
It was Nextdoor Bake Shop.
Anyway, sorry.
Go ahead.
Don (40:53):
I'd say no, it, it, it doesn't ever end.
No, it should not end.
Um, because if we aren't alwaysevaluating what we believe, then
we are setting up an idol.
Right?
It's one of the things' alwaysquote, yeah.
Hold on one second.
(41:14):
It, it's one of those things.
I always quote that if youworship the same God today as
you did yesterday, you'reworshiping an idol.
But obviously a lot of this isgonna come down to how you
personally definedeconstruction.
If you see it as a positive or anegative is going to impact
that.
Go ahead Tony.
It looks like that's where youwere
Tana (41:31):
heading.
That's where I was going, is I,I kind of wonder if we would
still call it deconstruction atthat point.
Um, because I think there'sdeconstruction and there's
reconstruction, and that is alla recursive process.
Like you're not gonna go throughit perfectly linearly.
Like first you do steps 1, 2, 3,4, 5, 6, and then you reco
(41:53):
reconstruct and you do one, two,you know, it's, it's gonna be
deconstruct this and thenreconstruct that and then
deconstruct a new thing andreconstruct that.
And then I think it's possiblethat eventually you're no longer
maybe in a phase ofdeconstruction, you're just in a
new phase where you'reconstantly dedicated to learning
(42:13):
and asking questions.
Yes.
And reading scripture deeply.
And it's no longer like you'retrying to deconstruct this, this
thing that has felt maybeharmful to you, but instead
you're trying to build a new
Don (42:27):
belief system.
So Tana, would you say as the,uh, the resident, uh,
rhetorician that, um, that it's,Deconstruction in some way.
The way that we're talking abouttonight means you're suspicious
of the, of the, uh, foundationof a belief.
(42:54):
Yeah.
Whereas the ongoing process ofrefining and passing it through
the fire, uh, and getting rid ofthe dross of our views and our
beliefs, that isn't, that isn'ta, um, doubting the foundation.
Right.
That I said is a refining.
So maybe refining is the, is
(43:14):
the
Tana (43:14):
term.
That's, that's a good term.
And I'm gonna try a really badmetaphor that just popped into
my head.
Um, I'm thinking about, I'm forit you'll, you'll fix it and
you'll make it sound better.
Uh, it, it's, it kinda remindsme of, um, oh, you were just
talking about this the otherday.
Good Bones, that TV show.
(43:35):
Love it.
Where, where they strip it downand make, and like, Whenever you
are stripping down a house, ifyou have to, like, if it's in
really bad shape, you might haveto just get rid of like
everything.
Right?
Um, and you might have a crackedfoundation that needs repaired
or maybe you need to pour awhole new foundation, or maybe
the studs are good and you canget everything down to the studs
(43:56):
and like the basic structure ofthe house is good.
And then you start rebuildingthe house.
So that feels to me likedeconstruction and then
reconstruction.
But over the years, you mayrenovate the house, you may redo
the kitchen, you might redo thebathroom, you might add a room,
you might, you know what I mean?
Like I kind of see it that way.
And so, what did you say?
What word did you say?
(44:17):
Refining.
Yeah.
Um, I was, when you were sayingthat, I was thinking renovating
Yeah.
You know, so kind of the samething.
Don (44:26):
Yeah.
All right.
Next question.
How has deconstruction for bothof you impacted the way that
you've parented?
Tana (44:36):
I love this question.
Me too.
And you know, I have momentswhere I'm like, I'm a terrible
mother and like, you know, like,when's my son gonna go into
therapy because of me.
Uh, but overall, I actuallythink I've been a really good
mom.
And I actually thinkdeconstruction has a lot to do
(44:56):
with that because I didn't tryto force, we didn't try to force
beliefs on Malcolm and we alsotaught him to question
everything, which was really,really annoying for
Don (45:09):
a while.
it was a great idea until he wasthree and then again when he was
15.
Tana (45:17):
Yeah, yeah.
And, you know, uh, all the kid,although kids ask why a million
times, um, they go through thatstage and then it feels like
they kind of outgrow it.
But, um, He just learned to askbetter questions than why you
know, uh, he asked a lot of whyquestions.
(45:37):
Um, but, but yeah, and, and so Ithink we've, uh, raised a
critical thinker and we alsoraised someone who's very
compassionate.
Uh, he has volunteered in manydifferent ways throughout the
years.
Um, he cares about people andalso there's just so many times
(46:01):
that he'll tell us a story andI'll just be so impressed with
how he handled it.
Like, uh, online gaming, youknow, people can get pretty
gross in that.
And he has a small group offriends where they'll go and see
The word you're looking for istoxic.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they'll, they'll play, Idon't remember what games he
(46:22):
plays online, but like, it'll belike his four friends and then,
um, another group and they playsome, you know, whatever.
And then in the chats, likecertain people will say like,
really jerky, things like that.
Homophobic or racist ormisogynistic or just really
crude or whatever.
And he's like, booted.
(46:42):
Like he just He's like, we don'taccept that language here.
Um, I play Clash of Clans withhim, and I cannot tell you how
many times, uh, he and one ofhis friends who's also like the
co-leader for the, for the clanhave booted people for being
disgusting or, uh, bigot.
Yeah.
You know?
Um, so I think I, we owe a lotof that to not just.
(47:07):
Having prescribed beliefs andtrying to push them off on
Malcolm, including like, oh, youshould be accepting of all
people, right?
I mean, yes, we taught him that,but we also taught him to
question and understand, youknow, come to his own
conclusions.
Don (47:20):
So yeah, I think, I think for me, when I think about that,
it's the process ofdeconstruction and the
willingness to be like, I thinkonce you've been deconstructing
for a while and you start to seesome of the reconstruction, and
you can feel that there's hope,because I think sometimes in
that deconstruction process,you've only done the tearing
(47:41):
apart.
And so you're, you're, you'rewanting that hope so bad, but
when you see some of the wallsstarting to go back up, even
while you're deconstructingsomewhere else, that hope allows
you to become comfortable withtearing down ideas that you
held.
Yeah.
Um, and I think when it comes toMalcolm.
(48:05):
And my, and parenting some ofthe things that I would've
imagined I would've been, as aparent, I held much more
loosely, uh, than I would've inthe past because I recognized
that so many things I was socertain about, I deconstructed
and rebuilt something much morebeautiful.
(48:26):
And so in my parenting, I held alot of that stuff, a lot looser.
Um, and I think even though Ialways imagined myself that I
would be a good father, I thinkI was an even better parent than
I had hoped I would be becauseof the deconstruction process
and learning that it's healthyto tear down preconceived
(48:49):
notions and allow something morebeautiful to arise out of
Tana (48:53):
it.
So I, I think one of the bestthings to come out of that is
that we never saw ourselves as.
like, uh, I don't remember whoit was, but the other day they
were just like, uh, my kids justdo what I say, doesn't matter
what they think.
Authoritarian.
Yeah.
Very authoritarian.
(49:14):
And, and so instead, what we hadwas a, like, we were all
participating as a family inmaking decisions on things.
And that I think that showingrespect to Malcolm was very
important to not making him feellike he just had to do what we,
(49:35):
you know, we told him.
And like, we never, he had alittle bit of a period of time
where he was like kind of pissyabout things, but it was very
short and we never had to dealwith the rebellious teenager, I
hate you slamming doors.
Um, you know, all that stuff.
Uh, he, and I think we did thatbecause we showed him the
(49:58):
respect of not.
being
Don (50:00):
authoritarian.
Yeah.
And I'm not sure how much ofthat was just Malcolm's
disposition versus maybe ourparenting, but I think with,
with it was all our parenting itwas all, I mean, I accept your
rebuke.
It was all our parenting Um, uh,Jerich says it is a very real
challenge when the midst of theanger, fear, uncertainty of
(50:21):
breaking down our assumptionsand comfort zones to not tear
down someone else's structureout of a need for shared
discomfort and anxiety.
Hmm.
Yeah, I think so.
I, I think that that's, that issomething that if I'm not happy,
no one's gonna be happy typething.
Right.
Um, I, I think that thatdefinitely does exist.
(50:44):
Um, yeah.
Marcus says, or even just thefear of loneliness and isolation
that comes with deconstruction,looking out and fearing that you
don't have community to do itwith.
Yeah.
I think that's, that's one ofthe sad things.
I can't express this enough.
I.
wish the church embraceddeconstruction.
(51:06):
Hmm.
And that the church was alwaysopen to reevaluating its stance
on things as new generationswith a history of ideas, a
history of learning fromprevious generations, develop
new ways of seeing God and theworld, um, that should be
(51:30):
embraced instead of taught asfear.
Right?
Like, oh boy, we can't changethe way we view things because
this is the way it's alwaysbeen.
Um, and, and I think that if thechurch actually, instead of,
instead of their garbagediscipleship class, they hold
for six weeks out of, you know,at a time they should probably
(51:51):
hold a deconstruction class.
Like how great would that be ifthe church every like offered.
A deconstruction class wherethey taught people how to ask
better questions, taught peoplehow to, um, investigate
scripture and, um, approachscholarship and, uh, and
(52:14):
actually, um, process and evenhelp them how to process.
Tana (52:19):
I think that would be beautiful.
And, um, the church'sunwillingness to do that reminds
me of, um, toxic masculinity.
How some men feel the need to beoverly masculine and aggressive
to prove that they're manly.
Uh, and so they don't, you know,allow any, uh, questions to
(52:44):
that.
And the church has a similarthing where.
Well, it was connected in mymind, and now I'm, and I'm not
questioning the connection, butanyway, uh, the pastors are so
afraid to not have authoritythat they're unwilling to have
that authority questioned.
(53:05):
Oh, I know where the connectionwas in my mind.
You know, a man who has noproblem, uh, going and buying
tampons for his wife or youknow, holding his girlfriend's
purse or, you know, whatever isa man that is secure in his
masculinity.
Don (53:23):
Right.
Yeah.
I never understood that fearpersonally, because I'm like,
that, that is like, like Idon't, I don't buy into like the
manliness thing and anyone thatknows me well knows that I'm, I
don't fit the standard ofmanliness.
Um, but, uh, you know, the ideaof like buying tampons, like.
(53:48):
That if, like, if you're, ifyou're afraid of cotton packed
in little cool GI Joe missiles,then, then you're, you're the
one that's a scaredy cat.
Tana (54:00):
Um, oh, that's funny.
But, but the same way I'mthinking of a pastor who's
actually comfortable in his ownauthority, if we wanna call it
that, would be willing to letpeople ask questions.
Don (54:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
Jeri says A drowning person willdrag anyone down with them.
Not through malice, but due tounrestrained fear.
I, I certainly, yeah.
Yeah.
And, and again, I think that'swhy we need to have swimming
classes.
We need to offer we need tooffer those types of things to,
(54:33):
I mean, you can't mm-hmm.
you know, having lifeguards at aswimming pool doesn't guarantee
there won't be any drowning, butit does.
Right.
Reduce the fear of it.
and it does reduce the, thepossibility of it.
So, yeah.
Well, Tana, we're all caught upon questions.
I think that means we're done,right?
(54:53):
No.
Oh, okay.
Uh, so, so what would you like,uh, especially in a world where
there's self scanning?
I'm not sure what I, I, I, fifthSunday, I'd love, uh, uh, a
little bit more self scanning.
I'm not sure what you mean.
Yeah.
(55:14):
I don't need, I I have a feelingyou're talking about like, going
through the, uh, grocery store,uh, faith floaties.
Yes.
Yes.
I definitely believe in faithfloaties.
That should be a thing.
So, Tana, um, what, what for youhas been unsaid?
I know there's a lot, uh, butwhat are, what are some things
(55:34):
that have been unsaid, uh, sofar in this conversation that
you'd wanna make sure that.
are, are some things that wewrestle with.
Talk about,
Tana (55:45):
I think now I get
Don (55:50):
this Sunday.
You are on point.
I just was slow on the uptake.
Tana (55:56):
Oh, Amanda has
Don (55:57):
another question.
I saw that.
Okay.
Thanks for doing my job.
Amanda says, do you missanything you shed from
deconstruction?
Tana (56:10):
Uh, I, I did for a while and now I mostly don't, but
sometimes pops back up.
Sometimes I miss that certainty,you know, and it wasn't the, the
problem for me is that it wasn'tmy own certainty.
Right?
I, I just trusted that otherpeople had the answer and, and
(56:36):
so I was like, okay.
That's, that's, that's what Ibelieve.
That's the answer.
Um, and there are times when Ikind of miss, like, I, I just
heard somebody, I think it wasin a TV show I was watching or
something.
There was like, they were like,oh, I miss when I was 18 and I
had life figured out You know,and, and that's kind of how I
(57:00):
feel sometimes of like, oh,sometimes I miss, just like
feeling this certainty that thisis what faith is and this is
what we should believe in, andblah, blah, blah.
And honestly, there are times Imiss the ignorance.
Hmm.
Um, you know, I feel like lifein a lot of ways was easier when
I was very clueless about racismand misogyny and homophobia and
(57:27):
all the pains in the world.
And, you know, and then as soonas I started learning about
those things, it was like, well,now I have to do something about
it.
and that can be very tiring andexhausting and depleting and
demoralizing.
you know, when you constantlysee people harming other people
and so yeah, some, some, I, Idon't actually 100% miss that,
(57:50):
but there are times when I'mlike, life would be so much
easier if I was just like, backin my ignorance as bliss
Don (57:56):
phase.
I, I know how I would answerthis.
I miss being the head of thehousehold.
Tana (58:06):
I'm gonna censor my response.
Don (58:12):
Oh man.
Uh, alright, next question.
People are deconstructingleaving church in droves.
Where do you see hope in thismovement?
Tana (58:25):
I think, I think that people are ready.
To have a more open conversationabout Christianity.
Back when we starteddeconstructing, it was still
pretty rare.
Uh, and we
Don (58:43):
faced, oh yeah, it was, it was the two of us and Brian
McLaren, that was it,
Tana (58:52):
And we faced a lot of opposition and from within the
church especially.
Um, and it was, it's a weirdspot to be in if you think about
it.
Um, because for people whodon't, who are non-religious,
(59:12):
you know, they're just like, oh,you're drinking the Kool-Aid.
And then the people who arefundamentalists are like, you're
not drinking enough Kool-Aid,You know, and I'm just here
going, I don't like Kool-Aid.
But, uh, it, it, it's likeyou're getting it from both
sides, right?
Yeah.
Either you're an idiot forbelieving in God.
or you are a heretic for notbelieving in God
Don (59:36):
properties.
So where's your hope, Where doyou see
Tana (59:38):
hope?
So the hope, I think we'refinally at a point where more
people are open to that.
More people are open to askingthe questions and exploring a
new way forward.
Yeah.
That felt like I was gonna goonto it something else, but that
was the end of my sentence,
Don (59:59):
Well, I would say, you know, the whole question here I
think is important.
People are deconstructing andleaving the church.
Mm-hmm.
And for me, that breaks my heartthat people are leaving the
church.
I, I'm okay with peopleultimately deciding faith is not
any longer something that theyhold and they move on.
(01:00:23):
But I think right now a lot ofpeople see it only as an either
or.
that if I'm deconstructing, Ihave to leave the church.
If I want to stay in the church,I can't deconstruct, and that's
bullshit.
The reality is the church needspeople.
Christianity.
Christianity needs people todeconstruct their faith.
(01:00:47):
That's the only way.
The hope that I find is thatdeconstruction is the future of
the church the same way it wasat the Reformation, the same way
that it was at other majormoments throughout church
history, where there were majorchanges in the way people view
God viewed creation, viewedscripture.
(01:01:08):
Those moments are significantand necessary, and the problem
that the church has hadhistorically is that instead of
embracing it, it fights it.
And I would argue that right nowwe have.
A, a group of people who areasking some of the most
important questions that shouldbe being asked of the church and
(01:01:32):
about the text and aboutdoctrine and dogma.
And instead of, instead ofactually, um, how do I wanna say
it?
Cuz I don't, the last thing I beis sound disparaging to the
people deconstructing these.
That's not where my heart is atall.
But instead of, instead ofpeople thinking that they can
(01:01:52):
stay and believing that they,they are okay to stay and
question, and fight against andpush against those things.
Mm-hmm.
they feel they have to leave.
Right.
And so my hope is in all thisdeconstruction is this is
exactly what the church needsright now.
The church need deconstructionis the gadfly of our generation
(01:02:13):
to bite the church in the ass toget it moving again.
My concern is, is that so manypeople have bought into the
idea, That conservativeinterpretation, politically
conservative interpretation ofthe Bible, hmm, is the,
actually, is actually the trueinterpretation of the Bible.
(01:02:34):
And therefore they have toreject the Bible.
They have to reject God, andthey have to reject Jesus.
And that breaks my heart becausethere, that is the furthest
thing from the truth.
It has been co-opted byconservative, politically
conservative Christians.
And because of that, I have hopethat this deconstruction
process, if enough people stayand deconstruct within the faith
(01:02:58):
that the church is gonna have amajor reformation again.
Uh, and, and I think thatthat's, that could be really
beautiful.
All right.
Uh, what connected you?
What kept you connectedspiritually?
Tana (01:03:14):
I don't think I understand the
Don (01:03:18):
question.
So for me, as I wasdeconstructing and feeling, my
feet were planted in mid-air.
I wasn't sure if there was a Godbecause I didn't believe in hell
I, there I was all of a suddenabandoning so many of my beliefs
that that, and just the, theprocess of it led to, I also
have to determine do I believein God?
(01:03:40):
Um, and for me it was scripture.
Scripture actually is what keptme connected spiritually because
I was able to, and quick teaserhere by the way.
But in the new year, we have asurprise that we're gonna be
rolling out on A J F F, uh, foryou folks that, uh, would be in
(01:04:01):
potentially interested in this.
But I can't tell you all thedetails yet because it's not
public.
So that being said, it was thereading of the text, it was
studying scripture that, um,kept me connected and kept me
spiritual, which I think is sucha.
Would be a surprise to manypeople going through
deconstruction because theythink that's the first thing
(01:04:24):
they have to abandon is thisbook that says that God hates
gay people and God hates, uh,whatever.
Um, and so they think the veryfirst thing they have to abandon
is the scripture.
And for me, that was the verything that kept me connected
spiritually.
Tana (01:04:42):
Ditto.
Don (01:04:44):
right?
Amanda, what did you learn aboutyourselves and each other
through it?
That I'm the best kind ofheretic as what?
Tana learned.
Tana (01:04:59):
Yes.
That's what I learned.
That I think we, I think thatthere were times that was
actually really difficult.
Um, Deconstructing thepatriarchal nature of the
church.
Um, because we had to look atour own marriage and, uh, what
(01:05:20):
we believed versus what wasactually happening because we
were both taught to behave acertain way in heterosexual
relationships.
Mm-hmm.
um, you know, I've always beenthe type that looked to other
people to understand what Ibelieve.
So, um, that was really easy todo in a church, uh, because I'd
(01:05:44):
just be like, wow.
A pastor will tell me and thenI'll just parrot that, you know,
um, right.
And growing and that was a verystrange noise.
Don (01:05:54):
And then I looked away, but I was like, ah.
Tana (01:05:57):
And then growing up it was very much my dad.
I, I was sort of like, well, my,my dad will tell me what to
believe in.
So between the church and mydad, it was, you know, that was
kind of it.
And so then when we got married,I sort of just transferred that
to Don and I was just like,well, he's always gonna have the
right answer and, you know, etcetera, et cetera.
Don (01:06:19):
And then, and now we know that is nowhere
Tana (01:06:22):
near us And then there are moments when I was not, uh, I
did disagree, um, but, but Iwouldn't, maybe I wouldn't say
anything or maybe I would kindof push back a little bit
tentatively.
But, um, my, I would alwaysresort back to that, like head
(01:06:42):
of the household stuff.
And also Don's really good atarguing so that's, that made it
difficult because, you know, hewould offer a logical argument
and I'd go.
Okay.
This still doesn't feel right,but I can't argue against that,
you know, and we had adiscussion at one point where,
uh, Don was like, you know,Tona, you don't have to agree
(01:07:03):
with me all the time.
Right.
You know that I'm okay withthat.
Right.
And you can have your ownopinions, you know that.
Right.
And Don, I hope you don't mindme sharing this, but I remember
Don (01:07:13):
that I don't know what you're gonna share so I can't
answer the question Sure, go forit.
Tana (01:07:18):
I'm gonna just go for it.
Uh, I remember when I finallystarted doing that, you, you
told me later you were like,that was actually really hard
for me.
I wasn't expecting it to
Don (01:07:29):
be difficult because I didn't realize how often you
thought I was wrong.
I know you're laughing aboutthat, but that really was the
complicated thing.
Like early on in ourrelationship, you deferred to me
as, as the head of thehousehold.
And because you deferred to meso much, I was left to imagine.
(01:07:51):
that even if we did disagree orthere would be change in this
process as I, when I told youlike, you know, like, you don't
have to agree with me.
I still thought you'd agree withme the majority of the time And,
but I think we all feel thatway.
Am am I alone thinking that Iwould be, I'm right more often
(01:08:12):
than I'm not.
I, I think that we all kind offeel that way
Tana (01:08:15):
about it.
Well, and I also reinforced thatin you for years,
Don (01:08:18):
right?
A hundred.
I mean, I was bad in a hundredpercent for the first 10 years
of our marriage.
I don't, and then, and then Ijust, I went in this slump for
the next, uh, 16.
I don't know.
Tana (01:08:30):
Well, and I think also, There's a, a bit to that where I
was like, oh, I can have my ownopinion.
And then I was like, I'm gonnashare all the opinions So, you
know, and,
Don (01:08:42):
but I wouldn't trade that at all, by the way.
And I hope, I hope peoplelistening know that like, it was
hard.
It was, it was complicated forme.
But here's the thing.
I'd say there is no way thatthat weirdness and that
difficulty that I went throughwas worse than you Tana always
having to defer to me.
Right?
Right.
It was super complicated for meto process.
(01:09:04):
Um, and it's even humorous tolook back on and, and laugh at,
but it, it was nothing incomparison to what you went
through.
And, uh, and that's, that's ashame.
Tana (01:09:17):
Yeah, I can imagine it would be that way for anybody
in, of course, Noma, in whatever
Don (01:09:20):
gender.
I wasn't saying you uniquely hadit bad.
Tana (01:09:24):
No, no, I just meant it would be difficult if all of a
sudden your partner was like,oh, dis disagreeing you after 10
years of
Don (01:09:32):
you.
Yeah.
So Amanda, one of the things I'dsay that I learned about myself
and each other through it was Iwas not as good of a person as I
thought I was.
And that was hard.
Mm-hmm.
like both in kind of what we'readjusting about a little bit
right now.
The way that I treated Tana, theway I ex had expectations in our
(01:09:58):
relationship, the way I had, um,the way I thought about myself
as a queer person, um, the way Ithought about other queer
people, um, the way that I wouldeven say the way I thought about
race, um, the way I thoughtabout socioeconomic issues.
(01:10:18):
I just was not as good of ahuman.
as my very checklist.
Sin management, fundamentalistChristianity allowed my white
maleness to imagine that I wasHmm.
Um, and that was uniquelydifficult.
(01:10:40):
But I would also sayunbelievably rewarding on the
other side.
Yeah.
To be able to embrace myself asa pansexual male, um, to be able
to, uh, affirm my friends in theLGBTQ community, um, to
(01:11:03):
actually, um, function well inspaces where, uh, whiteness was
not the predominant, uh, Tolearn all those things about
myself.
Um, I think a lot of people aredeconstructing in the church
(01:11:25):
because they were, they firststarted deconstructing in
society.
And that's a shame because thechurch should be what is always
lead, in my opinion.
I think ideally the churchshould be leading that place of
safety, that place of makingsure people are welcome, making
sure people are cared for,making sure people are seen
(01:11:45):
fully as human and the image ofGod.
That seems to be the premise of,of my faith.
Um, but I think a lot of peoplestarted to have these things
happen in life with activism andwith Black Lives Matter.
I think Black Lives Matter is ahuge part and even, um, and even
(01:12:10):
the.
the marriage equality bills andstuff that were passed, right.
Those all, I think took a lot ofpeople into deconstruction of
their faith.
Mm-hmm.
And to me it's sad that ascorrupt as politics are, as
corrupt as, as things can bewithin government, that in a lot
(01:12:33):
of ways our, the government, um,pushed, gave people that nudge.
Um, so, and I would
Tana (01:12:41):
say the shame about that is that the church would say
then that that's culture.
You're interpreting church andapproaching church through
culture, you know, and theywould criticize the
deconstruction from thatstandpoint that you're only
deconstructing because the wokeleft has gotten to you or, or
(01:13:05):
whatever.
It's a,
Don (01:13:06):
it's a straw man argument.
Tana (01:13:07):
Yeah.
And, but what they're notreally.
Recognizing what you said, thatthe church has failed to lead.
Don (01:13:15):
We are at a moment where the sailors with Jonah and the
sailors who are not people ofJewish faith, um, hear God and
react to God better than God'sown prophet.
(01:13:35):
Mm, mm-hmm.
And if you don't wanna know whatI'm talking about, the book of
Jonah is like five pages longRead it.
The, the, the gentile, the pagansailors who used lots who, who
rolled dice to determine who wasat fault for the storm.
(01:13:57):
Honored Jonah.
When they showed that Jonah wasthe reason for the fault of the
storm, instead of throwing Jonahoverboard, they threw away all
their live.
They threw away all the goodsthat they were transporting,
they were gonna lose everything.
But they protected Jonah.
They behaved more like God thanthe prophet of God.
(01:14:17):
And let me just say that I thinkthat that's a moment we're at
right now in history.
The church is Jonah.
God is called the church to beprophetic, to do important
things to bring salvation.
And when I say salvation, I meansafety to people.
And the church hasn't done it.
And so the example that we'reliving in right now is we're
(01:14:40):
seeing the rest of the worldbehave the way that the church
should have just naturally doneit.
Yeah.
All right.
I don't get to say this often atan end of a call in an
interview, but babe, do you haveanything else you wanna share?
Tana (01:14:58):
uh, man.
I feel like there's so much, butI'm having trouble, um, kind of
digging through all of my, allof my thoughts to come up with a
like, oh, we didn't talk aboutthis.
You know?
Don (01:15:15):
Um, I imagine, although, you know, the person that does
the scheduling for this, so youcould probably find your way
back on
Tana (01:15:23):
That's probably true.
I, I think I would just addthat, um, reiterate that going
through deconstruction with an,uh, a community is probably the
best way with at least one otherperson is good as well.
I think having to do it all onyour own will just make you feel
(01:15:44):
more isolated and, uh, cuzyou're already gonna feel
isolated because of your.
You know, you're already gonnafeel isolated because you are
rejecting the teachings of yourparticular church or, or, or
whatever.
Yeah.
Um, and I would also, I reallythink some, there is a missing
(01:16:07):
ingredient for a lot of people,which is the, going back to
scripture.
I think that's what saved us inthis.
Um, I do too.
And, and PE people feel likethey have to, they have to
jettison scripture because theywere told that this scripture
says this, and so therefore it'sall bad when there, a lot of
times the reality is no peoplein power wanted to stay in power
(01:16:31):
and they wanted to continue tooppress people because it was
good for them.
The people in power, not for theoppressed people.
Uh, and so they, I mean, thinkabout the fact that the Bible
wasn't even available to beread.
by the commoner, you know, for areally long time.
And so the ch so the church, thechurch leaders who were often
(01:16:55):
in, in, uh, cahoots with the,the state, you know, so to
speak, uh, were telling peoplewhat the, what this Bible said.
We have this word of God andwe're gonna tell you what it
says.
So to, to imagine that thosepeople were really like, I don't
know.
Don (01:17:16):
So, so Tana, a lot of high schools have done some pretty
shitty interpretations of Romeoand Juliet, yet we have not
rejected Shakespeare.
Right, right.
And there's a lot of churchesthat have done some pretty
shitty interpretations of theBible.
(01:17:36):
Yeah.
And I hope that we don't rejectGod because of that.
And I think some people aregonna come to that conclusion
and I embrace that and I wantthem to do what's best for their
health and their wellbeing.
But I don't think it's a given.
And I think unfortunately a lotof people, they begin the
deconstruction process and Ithink a lot of people have in
(01:17:57):
their mind that the likelihoodis I walk away.
Mm-hmm.
as opposed to the likelihood isI stay, but with something
profoundly different and morebeautiful.
Tana (01:18:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think sometimes even justhaving it in the mind that you
can walk away even if you don'tultimately walk away Yeah.
Is freeing.
It's
Don (01:18:18):
absolutely freedom.
Yeah.
You're not trapped.
Yeah.
All right friends.
Well I have been so grateful foryou hanging out with us this
whole time, Tana.
Yeah, it was fun.
Um, and I wanna just a quickshout out.
It's not fair to do in the lastfive minutes when only a few
people are still hanging on,but.
Tana is absolutely at the heartof a J F F.
Without Tana, we do not scheduleguests without Tana.
(01:18:42):
We do not have social mediawithout Tana.
We do not have edited podcastswithout Tana.
Basically, we don't have a Jfff.
So Tana, I am so unbelievablygrateful to you.
You are, you are listening to meand you are a blessing to the
community.
And thank you for all the workyou do behind the scenes and
(01:19:03):
particularly tonight.
Thank you for sharing yourwisdom and your beauty of
intelligence and care andcompassion for people.
I'm so grateful to you.
Tana (01:19:13):
You are way too kind.
But thank you, I enjoyed it.
It was.
Don (01:19:17):
Awesome.
All right folks.
Well, if, uh, if you want checkout all of our different social
media places, feel free to swingby Buy me a coffee.com/aj fff if
you'd like to support the showat all.
Also, check out our website, uh,ancient jesus future faith.com,
as well as our YouTube channelbeyond this, because we have
(01:19:38):
lots of shorts, we have lots of,uh, our podcast are put there.
And please check out, uh,wherever you get podcasts.
And please rate us and give us acomment.
Be honest, even if it's a onestar, no star, we would love to
have you still rate and comment.
All right, friends, I hope youhave a beautiful night and I
will hopefully see you Monday.
(01:19:59):
Bye
Tana (01:20:01):
bye.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.