*This episode was originally released in March 2022*
For some inspiring summer listening, we are re-sharing some of our favorite episodes on the power of science and chemistry. This is the VERY FIRST episode we released. Stay tuned for our next season featuring our customers and partners starting in September!
In this episode, first released in March 2022, Ilham sits down with Nobel prize-winning scientists Professor Steven Chu and Professor Ben Feringa to discuss some of the most exciting innovations in energy, clean mobility, and healthcare; the importance of ensuring that scientific innovation is at the service of humanity; the winner of the 2022 Ernest Solvay Prize by Syensqo; and how science and chemistry are key to enabling a more sustainable future.
Steven Chu is a professor of Molecular and Cellular Physiology at Stanford University and the former US Secretary of Energy. In 1997, he was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics for developing methods to cool and trap atoms with laser lights. Ben Feringa is a Professor at the University of Groningen, and the winner of the 2015 Solvay prize. In 2016, he won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his groundbreaking research on the design and synthesis of molecular machines. They were both part of the jury that chose the winner for the 2022 Ernest Solvay Prize by Syensqo, Katalin Karikó.
For additional details about the podcast, show notes, and access to resources mentioned during the show, please visit https://www.syensqo.com/en/podcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ilham Kadri (00:02):
Hello everyone.
For some inspiring summerlistening.
We are re-sharing some of ourfavorite episodes on the Power
of Science and Chemistry.
This is the very first episodewe released.
I hope you enjoy thisconversation with Nobel Prize
winners.
(00:23):
Ben Fara and Stephen Chu aboutscience and business at the
service of humanity.
Stay tuned for our next season,featuring our customers and
partners starting in September.
Today.
I'm so excited to be speakingwith not just one, but two Nobel
(00:48):
Prize laureates, Steven Chu andprofessor Ben Feringa.
Steven Chu is a professor ofmolecular and cellular
physiology at StanfordUniversity, and the former US
Secretary of Energy.
In 1997, he was awarded theNobel Prize in Physics for
(01:10):
developing methods to cool andtrap atoms with laser lights.
Ben Feringa is a professor atthe University of Groningen, and
I'm very happy to say the winnerof the 2015 Solvay prize.
In 2016, he won the Nobel Prizein Chemistry for his
(01:31):
groundbreaking research on thedesign and synthesis of
molecular machines.
As a scientist myself who haslong admired your work.
It's such an honor to bespeaking with both of you today.
Thank you so much for beinghere, Stephen and Ben.
So now I know that a lot ofpeople you well from your
(01:54):
scientific achievements, but Iwant to start this podcast
getting to know more about yourbackground and what's motivates
your passion for science.
let me start with you Ben,Professor You have such an
interesting story, and you toldme that a few times.
You grew up on a farm in thebeautiful and land of the
(02:17):
Netherlands, where I livedpersonally, the second of 10
children.
And I've heard you talk a lotabout how impactful that was for
right?
Your youth, how it gave you agreat love of nature and puts
you on the path to becoming ascientist.
And Professor Chu, I read thatwhen you were young, you created
(02:39):
a homemade rocket, and youstarted a small business testing
the chemistry of the soil inyour neighbor's lawn.
I hope they were happy, right?
I want to ask you both, there aspecific moment in your life
that made you really realizethat science was your passion
and your calling.
(03:00):
Ben, I start with you?
Ben Feringa (03:03):
Yeah, very briefly indeed you mentioned I grew up
on the farm in a fairly smallvillage on the German border, a
fairly remote area.
And behind all far behind thefields, there was the German
border and wilderness.
And, you know, crossing bordersthat is what a scientist does.
And I think it started therebecause we illegally crossed the
(03:26):
German border because at thattime it was for me then when I
was a kid, but my father lookedin the other direction and said,
go ahead, discover.
And so on the farm, there is alot to be discovered and to find
out.
Hey, you ask these questions.
I think I asked my father whenwe were in the fields, why is
the sky blue?
Yeah.
(03:47):
And how is it possible that fromthis small corn, you know, this
grain, this huge corn orsunflower growing, but my real
interest in science came when Iwas in highschool.
When I for the first time I hadthe teachers in Chemistry and
Physics, and Mathematics, andI've asked typically I think a
natural science kid, so I gotreally interested, and by this
(04:11):
experiment, by thinking aboutthe stars, thinking about
mathematical formulas, I alwayswanted to solve every formula,
you know?
My best marks where inMathematics for sure.
But then I got so inspired bydoing experiments, my Chemistry
teacher was absolutely fabulous.
And I think a great teachermakes the difference.
(04:31):
And of course I did not buildrockets like Steve Chu, but I
think I did at that time, someexperiments on the loft in the
farm.
And my mother was really scared,you know?
Because you imagine this isabove the animals and there was
a lot of hay and straw, and so Ieasily could have burned the
whole farm.
(04:52):
Everything went well.
And I decided to move, not intomathematics, but to go into
Chemistry because I liked theexperiments.
Ilham Kadri (04:59):
So it's all about professors, right?
Steven, what about you?
Steven Chu (05:03):
I love playing with my hands, I had a chemistry set.
But if you have a chemistry setin those days, you could go to
local chemistry supply storesand buy other chemicals.
You didn't need a permit.
so when you start doingchemistry sets, of course,
sometimes people gravitatetowards more spectacular things
you can do in chemistry, hencebombs and rockets.
(05:27):
I did lots of experiments.
I build model airplanes.
I made things with my hands.
You know, Ben talks aboutfamily.
Perhaps a little bit concernedthat he would set the barn on
fire.
was playing with littlematchstick rockets as little
(05:47):
wooden matchsticks you wrap inaluminum foil, you put it on a
paperclip saying to heat it up.
If you get the nozzle right, youcan send it all the way across
the kitchen.
And but of course, some of thematch heads fell down and they
scorched the table.
So I didn't burn down the house,but I ruined the kitchen,
kitchen table where we ate,mother came home, she looked at
(06:10):
it, she started to cry.
I said, don't worry, mom, justtake us to the lumberyard we'll
buy a new piece, I'll fix it.
This where I was in gradeschool, five to sixth grade, I
too love mathematics.When I wasan undergraduate.
majored in physics andMathematics.
But in the end, it was actuallythinking it's the science that
(06:32):
really mattered.
In mathematics, you can spend,you can stay up all hours of the
night, proving things thatperhaps I thought in the end, 50
people in the world might careabout.
Whereas if you discoversomething in about nature, a lot
more people might care about itand it could also do some good.
Ilham Kadri (06:52):
So let me switch gears.
And since you have recentlyfinished choosing the Solvay
prize winner, let's take amoment to celebrate the
laureates, Katelyn Keriko, hergroundbreaking research led to
the creation of the RNAmessenger COVID-19 vaccine,
(07:12):
which has saved so many livesand helps curb the impacts of
the pandemic.
to her recently last week andshe's a role model, she's an
inspiration, right?
And what's so exciting is thatshe's the second woman to win
the Solvay prize.
thank you guys for bringingdiversity into the mix.
(07:34):
And I had nothing to do withthis by the way, but you did.
So Professors Chu and Feringa,can you explain why you and your
fellow jury members chose her asthe winner and how her
incredible scientificachievements will change the way
we fight diseases?
Steven, can we start with you?
Steven Chu (07:53):
think, you know, your contributions are
undeniable.
She did the groundbreakingscience that discovered you can,
well, we knew that you cansynthesize messenger RNA and DNA
outside with mathematicalprecision.
You can type in what you wantand it, a machine spits it out.
(08:16):
so given that, there was adesire to perhaps use messenger
RNA getting inside the cell, andthat would be the instructions
that a molecule that resistsinstruction can assemble amino
acid chain that makes proteins.
And so by doing so you can skipall the DNA stuff and you can
(08:40):
get the cell to producesomething you want.
And she thought this was goingto be fantastic.
But as soon as she started doingexperiments in animals, she's
found the animal rejects.
so it was her groundbreakingresearch to discover why it
naturally rejects the RNA, eventhough cells every day, make RNA
(09:04):
that turns into messenger RNA,that's the instruction set.
And she
Ilham Kadri (09:10):
Yeah.
Steven Chu (09:10):
found that it's a protection mechanism against
foreign invaders.
And looking at that, she stuckin other artificially made RNA,
and said, well, it doesn't work,there's no rejection of this,
why is this happening, not thathappening?
And together with a colleague ofhers, discovered that if you
(09:31):
change chemically one of thebases from the one you naturally
synthesize to one that's foundin nature, you can fool the
immune system of the organism,the animal.
And it was that breakthroughthat made it so.
Ah, now we can program the RNA,and it was that seminal paper
(09:52):
and some followup papers thatreally led the way.
Ilham Kadri (09:55):
Fabulous.
And you Ben, what's impressedyou.
Ben Feringa (09:59):
I'm extremely pleased, you know, that she got
this award because it's a Solvayprize for the future of
chemistry.
And ofcourse, at the end,basically, it's about molecules.
This is biomolecules, it's aboutsynthesis.
And so this is a clear message,but there is another very
important message here with thisaward and that is to the
society.
(10:20):
Because recently we heard a lotabout all these facts and cannot
be any good because they havebeen developed fairly quickly in
one or two years ago, realizedthis is fundamental science and
discoveries that were madedecades ago.
And this is the basis that makesthese facts in technology
possible.
These are due to this longdevelopment, this is how science
(10:40):
works.
And furthermore, it'smultidisciplinary in nature,,
this is more than science.
You have to look across borders,you know?
You can be very good inChemistry or Physics or Biology,
but usually big discoveries aremade at the edges, and thirdly,
I think it also recognizesdiscoveries that were probably
not recognized at that stage.
(11:02):
I think Steve mentioned it.
At that time, people maybe didnot entirely believe that it
would be useful a lot.
It will be five or whatever.
This happens, you know?
With big discovery.
sometimes people, not even thescientific community immediately
sees the impact, the potentialimpact.
So this is really important alsoto our politicians and
(11:22):
scientists.
Yeah, look ahead.
Scientists should look.
These discoveries might have amajor impact several decades
ahead.
And this is what is theimportance of science, you know?
To have this freedom also tomake this fantastic discoveries
and to bring the world forward.
Ilham Kadri (11:42):
Yeah.
And Ben, this is a great seguebecause when I talk to Katie,
the most inspiring thing I foundabout her is her incredible
story of determination.
She faced failures and manychallenges, getting the funding
throughout her career.
And I remember, ProfessorFeringa, Ben when I met you a
year ago, remember youaddressing the audience here and
(12:06):
you spoke very eloquently aboutfailure I remember.
And
Ben Feringa (12:09):
Yeah.
Steven Chu (12:10):
Um,
Ilham Kadri (12:10):
that if you want to be a scientist, you had to stand
failures and disappointments.
Ben Feringa (12:15):
Well, we all think we are very smart, but honestly,
you know, we have ideas,theories, you know?
We set up models, but often weare wrong and as Steve mentioned
it, just mentioned it, whydoesn't it work?
Why does the experiment not workor why does it have a different
outcome, or why does the theorynot fit?
And this gives you the rightquestions.
(12:35):
Because science is not about theanswers, science is about the
questions, you know?
And this sharpens our questions.
We were working on catalysis for20 years.
Yeah.
Ilham Kadri (12:46):
Yeah.
Ben Feringa (12:47):
For a certain problem that carbon carbon bond
formation, which is crucial inChemistry, you know to chemical
structure And for 20 years, wedid not know how to do it.
And then one of my PhD studentson a Monday morning made a
failure, a complete failure.
I couldn't imagine why he didit, but I think he took the
wrong bottle or whatever, youknow.
(13:08):
And that certainly have worked.
Every year after 20 years thenupbeat in the two weeks we knew
what was going on and why itworked and what we have not
seen.
So these are these eye-openingmoments for scientists.
So failure is also importantbecause this is a learning point
where you can sharpen yourquestions and maybe get to the
right answer.
Ilham Kadri (13:29):
So some of the biggest inventions and
innovations happen because offailures and serendipity, right?
Ben Feringa (13:35):
Serendipity is certainly part of science.
Ilham Kadri (13:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
So aside from being okay withfailure, Steven, what does it
take to be a good scientist,according to you?
Steven Chu (13:48):
Well let me first reinforce what Ben said.
I'm going to call, I thinkWinston Churchill that said that
about prioritizing terms ofsuccessful scientists, is that
you go from failure to failureto failure with continued
enthusiasm.
(14:08):
And I think in addition to doingthis, it's not failing the same
way, the same time again andagain and again, that's not
productive.
After once or twice, maybe threetimes then you think, oh right,
something's wrong, something'smissing, then you look for
clues.
And one of the things that Ilearned was something, when you
(14:33):
do experiments, some people doan experiment expecting a
certain outcome, when somethingelse is different, they say, No,
I can't be.
And then they do something else.
And a good experiment will letnature talk to them.
And when nature talks, listen.
(14:54):
So when you do an experiment,there might be something going
on, it's not exactly theoutcome.
And then also do things slightlydifferent, even if sort of
working.
Again, coaxing out more of theanswer.
And so that's more of an art, Idon't know sure we can put this
in textbooks yet.
(15:20):
That's one of the things aboutfailure.
Failure in a different wayactually tells you something.
And so you, a good sign is takethat all in.
And we live with the ambiguity.
Ben Feringa (15:33):
So Ilham, if I may add to this, you maybe we can
call it all failures, but infact, a lot of these failures
are messages to us.
A clear message is to thinksharper or to reformulate, you
know how we do things or how wethink about it or whatever.
That is ignorant to science.
Ilham Kadri (15:53):
So let me now switch gears to energy and
molecular motors, right?
Which are your sweet spots.
And one of the objectives ofthis is really to explore how
businesses can ensure thatscientific innovation is at the
service of humanity.
I'd like to talk about practicalapplications, Professor Chu,
let's start with you, because inyour former role as the
(16:15):
Secretary of Energy, you havebeen at the heart of the energy
transition and you see firsthandhow sciences has been the to
making it happen.
We are working on EV batteries,right?
It is booming.
We are working on green hydrogenrights and all these renewable
at the service of cleanermobility as an example.
(16:36):
tell us what scientificbreakthroughs are you seeing in
the energy sectors and what doyou think is the best energy mix
for the future?
Steven Chu (16:44):
Well, the best energy mix, so let's start at
the end.
The best energy mix is somethingwhere we have clean energy
carbon-free energy,non-polluting energy, ideally
compact energy.
Meaning that you don't need, youknow, in hundreds and hundreds
of square miles.But it'sgreenhouse gases and it's all
(17:07):
the other pollutions.
But this goes beyond when peoplethink of energy, they think of,
well, they think of electricalpower, they think of But in
fact, energy provideseverything.We use energy to make
the fertilizer and the diesels.
But in addition to that, thefertilizer, when not absorbed by
(17:30):
the plants ends up being agreenhouse gas effect.
And so if we think ofsustainability, then we have to
think of all the things thatlead to greenhouse gas
emissions, agriculture and landuse is more than electricity,
power generation around theworld.
of chemistry is Thermochemistry.
And until very recentlyunthinkable to think of
(17:55):
Electrochemistry as being amainstay on electricity.
Aside from a few things,aluminum chlorine, a few of
them,
Ilham Kadri (18:02):
Yeah.
Steven Chu (18:02):
most of it's Thermochemistry.
So we have an opportunity if wehave very inexpensive electric
energy that you can branch out.
But going beyond that, if youthink about all the things that
we've grown used to and dependon, are used to having lights on
when it gets dark outside.
(18:22):
We're used to having our homeswarm when it's cooler or cold at
night or more recently, perhapscooler than normal as certain
parts of the world get hotterand harder.
These are things that we'vegotten used to.
Transportation we've gotten usedto.
We never dreamed of thesethings.
(18:43):
500 years ago.
Ilham Kadri (18:44):
Yeah.
Steven Chu (18:45):
It would be unthinkable to think you'd be
eating fruits and vegetableshalfway around the world.
Ilham Kadri (18:50):
Yeah.
Steven Chu (18:50):
Okay.
And so now, of these things weshould rethink.
But things, I think science,technology, policy, all these
things could say, we can havethese things, but we can have it
in a way that preserves theresources far longer into the
(19:11):
future.
And especially to stop thegreenhouse gas emissions and the
local pollution the water, theair, the everything.
And so now, in doing so,chemistry actually lies at the
heart of many of these potentialsolutions.
And so this is one of thethings, you know, it's often,
I'm a physicist.
So you would say, physicist theking of science,
Ilham Kadri (19:33):
Yeah.
Steven Chu (19:33):
Chemistry is the linking science to all the other
things, the Chemistry, theBiology, the Physics, Earth
Science, you name it.
And so you know, it's good to beking maybe, but it's better to
be connected to everything.
Ilham Kadri (19:50):
I used to say that Chemistry is the mother of all
industries.
So at the end of the day, isthat at the hearts of it.
To finish on, on maybe batteriesbecause it's very close to our
hearts what do you think will bethe next big thing in batteries?
Steven Chu (20:04):
two things.
If we can get a solid state, abattery that has a solid state
electrolytes, so I would sayconductor, that would be great.
As you say, it's going to be asafer, the electrolytes, current
electrolytes are flammable.
You've got them to get them towork at room temperature and
even freezing temperatures inorder for that to be practical..
(20:25):
need cheaper batteries, you needhigher energy density batteries,
and you need faster chargingbatteries.
do battery research myself, andwe're working on higher energy
density, batteries, and onesthat can weigh half a one third,
what they weigh now.
(20:45):
Faster charging batteries aregoing to become a reality.
you can imagine a car with abattery and electric motor that
can weigh the same as a one anda half or two liter engine,
transmission, and a fuel tank,but can go as far and can charge
maybe miles in five minutes, youwould never think of buying a
(21:12):
combustion engine car, becauseit's so much cheaper to operate
an electric vehicle and themaintenance is far less.
And so the battery is the keyand we are now testing batteries
that can go miles in maybe eightminutes.
Right.
Now, these are not on the marketyet, but, it's getting better.
(21:37):
next thing is, you know, theyhave the way, So that half the
weight means you're not lookinglike a heavy battery, which
means you need a smallerbattery.
Many, many things, these arevery exciting.
It's a matter of when, not if.
we will never charge as fast asyou can to fuel a combustion
(21:59):
engine car, because when you putgasoline or petrol in your car,
the power is 5 million watts ofpower going through that tube
into your car.
but you can transform the worldwith a half a million watts of
power.
And this is what I'm talkingabout.
This time of five minutes.
(22:20):
Because the battery and electricmotors are two times more
efficient, and so you gain backtoo.
So it's going to be a veryexciting time.
But remember, batteries aregoing to transform personal
electrification, but long range,heavy duty air transport is
going to need probably,chemical, liquid, hydrocarbon
(22:44):
that's renewable,
Ilham Kadri (22:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, it's a fascinatingconversation.
Let me switch gears here,Professor Feringa your work on
molecular motors has incrediblepotential, especially in health
care.
Can you explain to our audienceand innovators, explain the
molecular motors?
And what do you think are themost exciting application for
(23:07):
molecular motors in healthcarethat you see coming.
Ben Feringa (23:11):
Yeah.
First of all, let me brieflyexplain these molecular
machines.
And of course there are manypeople in the world working
around it.
And I got this award togetherwith my colleagues.
So Fraser, Stoddart andJean-Pierre Sauvage, we are also
pioneering on different conceptsof molecular machines.
We have been working on lightdriven rotary motors, so to use
(23:32):
light, energy, to make somethingmoving.
Now, why do we think this isfundamentally so important?
Because think of your body, youknow?
I mean, everything moves, thatwe can talk with each other, we
can see each other, you can moveyour muscles, et cetera.
Mother nature invented how tomove things, although they never
made a fuel driven machine, likein your car or in an airplane,
(23:55):
but your body is full ofmachines, you know?
And the most beautiful exampleis the ATPA's role to remodel.
This is by far the mostfantastic road to remodel that
is there in the book.
Yeah, that makes the fuel inyour body, the ATP.
Having said that, moving fromstatic material, like a piece of
plastic to something that isdynamic, et cetera, I think get
(24:19):
by itself will be reallyimportant for the future.
And why is that?
Because you can make all kindsof smart, adaptive materials,
like soft robotics, functionalmaterials that can adapt and
reshape, and whatever.
And also for recycling ofpolymers in the future,
plastics, all these materials,it's really important that we
not only have aestheticfunction, but we bring in
(24:41):
dynamic function.
I'm not saying that our motorswill do that, but once you learn
the principles how to do that,it will be much easier to make
robust materials, but also thathave the propensity that they
began easily recycle.
And this is exactly what ourbody does.
Your body does not fallspontaneously apart, but still
40% of your body also isrecycled everyday.
(25:04):
As far as I learned from mycolleagues in Biology.
Now in medicine, think aboutsmart medicine.
For instance, what we do, webuilt now drugs,
pharmaceuticals, where we buildin light switches so that we can
switch on and off the light.
And this is now a wholecommunity in the world.
You know, when you engineer theneurons and you can then tune,
(25:27):
you know the signals in thebrain, but there you need
genetic modifications.
But what we do is we takeartificial switches, like the
switching your eye.
For instance, we modify it, webring it to a biomolecule.
And the whole idea is that whenyou have a tumor, you can detect
it with this modern detectiontechnique, the modern imaging
(25:48):
techniques that you would beable to switch an anticancer
compound on the activity onright on the spot.
And it does not have all thesenasty side effects.
The same for an antibiotic.
Activating an antibiotic on thespot and it does not harm the
rest of your body.
It does not build up resistance.
That is a bitty idea.
So this goes all the way fromself-cleaning windows, coatings
(26:13):
on your car that you don't haveto wash your car anymore, or you
don't have to repair it becauseitself heals like scratching
your finger to smart drugs.
That is the perspective for thefuture.
It will take a couple ofdecades, but I'm convinced that
it will come.
We have to how it.
Ilham Kadri (26:31):
So it's more than healthcare, right?
Everything at the service ofhumanity, hygiene, cleaning
Ben Feringa (26:36):
Hygiene cleaning, self repair, I think mother
nature, does it, why cannot wedo it?
We just have to be smarter todevelop it.
Ilham Kadri (26:45):
Absolutely.
I know that you both have astrong, very strong interest in
environmental sustainability.
You have a passion forsustainable Chemistry.
Can you tell us Ben more aboutHow you see Science and
Chemistry enable that moresustainable future in time where
(27:06):
climate change, the risk ofpandemic, look at what's
happened, the world stoppedbecause of COVID-19.
It brings the sense of urgencyto take care of our home, the
planet,
Ben Feringa (27:18):
Yeah.
Ilham Kadri (27:18):
the next generation, our kids wants us to
leave a legacy, which is acleaner planet, right?
So how you see chemistry, whichsometimes has a bad label,
Ben Feringa (27:30):
Yeah.
Ilham Kadri (27:31):
in the industry I belong to you know,
Ben Feringa (27:34):
let me, let me make one thing clear.
Of course there are seriousissues, but I see it as
tremendous challenges for us.
Realize that if I would tell mystudents, you know, that I was
teaching today and I will tellthem- Oh, it's disastrous.
You know what happens in theworld?
(27:54):
They will not have a spirit forthe future.
These are all these bright,young people.
We have to tell them, see it aschallenges and reshape
chemistry.
For instance, you know, I'm achemist and the same holds for
parts of physics, material,science, engineering, biology.
How can we reshape and help tochange this?
See it as a challenge, you know?
To bring the world forward tosustainable solutions.
(28:16):
And I think we can do it.
In the past 120, 140 years, wehave all benefited for
Petrochemistry.
This is the basis of a lot ofthings we make.
From the fuels in our planes, tothe cars, to your clothes, to
our food, whatever, thefertilizers.
Now we cannot continue withbuilding everything based on
(28:37):
Petrochemistry, so we have tocome up with alternatives.
But I think we have onlyscratched the surface of what is
possible.
So I think there are tremendousopportunities here to come up
with cleaner processes.
Steve mentionedElectrochemistry.
We can do a lot withelectricity, because a lot of
chemical processes are redoxprocesses, just adding electrons
(29:00):
or taking charges away.
If we better use that andexplore that, I think we will
have much cleaner processes inthe future.
Recycling is another thing.
We are extremely good in makingall kinds of materials, building
all the materials for anairplane or in the car, the
isolation materials, all theplastics, et cetera, but we are
(29:22):
not very good at recyclingthings.
So, if you think about designingmaterials within the back of
your head, not only to design arobust material, but also design
the property, that it can beproperly recycled into useful
materials, starting materialsand whatever.
That's a different attitude.
And that's a challenge for us.
(29:42):
And I think, yeah, it will bedifficult, but we can do it.
Ilham Kadri (29:47):
Yeah, this is very inspiring.
And you're right.
I mean I remember when I was achemist in the lab 25 years ago,
doing my PhD, I was asked tomake a polymer, which works not
to design a polymer, which canhave a second life after its end
of life in current life.
Ben Feringa (30:04):
Yeah.
And honestly, we are a bitspoiled because a lot of the
materials that the chemists andthe physicists, and so our
communities designed and made,they are simply too good.
They are so good, you know?
For all these kinds of tasks andduties that we did not really
think about how to go to thenext steps.
So we have to rethink a lot ofthese concepts, you know?
(30:25):
But that can be done.
I'm convinced.
Ilham Kadri (30:27):
Do you agree, Stephen that circularity is part
of the answer to sustainablechallenges.
Yeah.
Steven Chu (30:34):
Absolutely.
I think as Ben said, todiscovering oil, discovering the
Chemistry that comes with oil,natural gas, and the
petrochemical industry, got verygood, they got very inexpensive,
they got very durable.
Before that, when we made thingsof natural materials, wood, for
example or rubber, there's somevalue inherent value in this.
(30:59):
We made things that wererepairable because the starting
products were not, you know,sold pennies to the kilogram.
And so now what we have is wehave something different.
Yes, it could still beinexpensive, but the full cost
(31:20):
to our lives, to the environmentare much higher.
And so now we have to think ofrecycling because recycling
means in a certain sense,repairable.
We went to a disposable economybecause people figured out- Oh,
you build a refrigerator, makeit last 10 years, not 50 years,
throw it away buy another one.
(31:44):
This does not do the environmentany good.
And so this whole business ofmaking things last longer,
repairable, ultimatelyrecyclable has to be designed in
from the ground up.
And in terms of petrochemicals,it is a very ticklish question.
It is how you actually designedthis stuff that was so durable,
(32:06):
so inexpensive to say, comeapart when we want you to come
apart, back to the originalbuilding blocks and then
reassemble.
That's what life does.
Ilham Kadri (32:15):
yeah,
Steven Chu (32:16):
blocks of proteins are amino acids, they recycle
them.
They are things, little machinesthat chop them up in the amino
acids again.
Ilham Kadri (32:24):
So recycling, we should be greedy with the
resources and use
Ben Feringa (32:28):
I mean,
Ilham Kadri (32:28):
and again.
Ben Feringa (32:29):
Honestly, living nature, mother nature, doesn't
spoil so much.
Ilham Kadri (32:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Ben Feringa (32:33):
They are very good in recycling and reusable.
Steven Chu (32:35):
recycled.
Ben Feringa (32:36):
yourself,
Ilham Kadri (32:37):
yeah,
Ben Feringa (32:38):
by yourself.
The bacteria use it forinstance, on plans grow on it,
yeah?
Ilham Kadri (32:42):
This is exceptional.
So I will have another podcaston recycling and circularity
with you guys.
Lastly, we are getting to theend of the podcast so, one last
question.
What did winning the Nobel Prizemean to you both?
Ben Feringa (32:56):
Now for me, of course it was a dream coming
true, yeah?
And that having said that, youknow, I was not busy with a
Nobel Prize or whatever, youknow?
I was fascinated by thisscientific adventure, the
discovery that started alreadywhen I was a kid.
I mentioned, yeah, the adventureof wanted to know.
(33:19):
And I was reading these books ofHumboldt and about adventurers,
discoverers.
And then suddenly you realize ata certain point that you are.
Steven Chu (33:29):
Um,
Ben Feringa (33:30):
discoverer that is recognized in the world and it's
like a dream coming true, youknow?
And I wish every talent, youknow, to have these kind of
dreams
Ilham Kadri (33:41):
steven?
Steven Chu (33:41):
Well, you know, I did not appreciate it, it took
me a while.
In the sense that, you know,people are going to say, well,
maybe you're going to get aNobel prize.
And I just shrug my shoulders.
And because I'm thinking, well,I got a few Nobel laureates.
(34:02):
Before the prize, they were verygood scientists.
After prize, they didn'tsuddenly become better
scientists.
And so it never hit me that,yeah, among the scientists,
maybe it's all right.
You know, but in the generalpublic, it was very different.
(34:23):
And it actually didn't hit meuntil the night of the ceremony.
you march out into convertedopera house that I realized,
wait a minute, this isdifferent.
You know, you're going to becomepart of history.
thing that I did not fullyappreciate it is did appreciate.
(34:45):
I said, I'm never going to speakabout something I don't know
anything about.
That's a Nobel Prize disease.
But as a citizen of the world,does that mean?
And I started this around year2000.
I got my prize in 97, but around2000, I got interested.
(35:06):
Maybe these people talking aboutclimate change perhaps I was
skeptical.
I started reading.
I kept my word.
I was never going to talk aboutanything I didn't know anything
about, what it made me do is tolearn about it,
Ilham Kadri (35:18):
Yeah.
Steven Chu (35:21):
if you are informed, you do have another voice, an
extra voice
Ben Feringa (35:26):
Yeah.
Steven Chu (35:27):
scientists don't have.
But it's the duty of people inthis position to become very
well informed before they starttalking.
it also changed my life because,since the middle of 2000, I put
my scientific career sort of onhold for a decade, and said, I'm
(35:48):
gonna try to do what I can inorder to let people understand
what the challenges are and tryto inspire them to go in and
change their careers, and whatthey know in science to help
with climate sustainability,energy, all of these things.
Now,
Ben Feringa (36:08):
Yeah.
Steven Chu (36:08):
then, since leaving the only thing I want to do is
go back to science.
I started, but it changed mylife.
I started doing research inthese areas as well.
but I would not have done that.
Had I not had a Nobel prize
Ben Feringa (36:26):
What changed in my life was that of course I still
do science, but the opportunityto go to advocate the importance
of science to society, to thegeneral public, you know?
Appearance on radio andwhatever, to go to schools, to
encourage the young students,you know, in high schools, in
(36:49):
elementary schools, all thesekinds of things that never was
so intense then after the NobelPrize.
And apparently this is afantastic opportunity to do
that.
And it helps a lot.
Yeah, to advocate the importanceof science, to bring our future
forward, to bring the talentsforward.
And also you should be, how doyou call it, what Steve said,
(37:12):
certainly they think, you know,you have an opinion about
everything.
Yeah.
So I want to quote my wife whowas asked by a journalist on
television- How is that to bemarried to a Nobel Prize winner?
And you know, her answer was- Heseems to know a lot about
Chemistry.
Ilham Kadri (37:30):
Fabulous.
So another proof of yourleadership Humility is the best
and one of the most fascinatingattributes of great leaders.
my takeaway is that the journey,focus on the journey.
The journey is fascinating,brilliant.
The destination can be as brightas bringing you to Nobel Prize.
And listen, you are part of thehistory of Nobel Prize, but I
(37:52):
know that your legacy and yourwork and contribution are
invaluable and part of ourfuture.
So thank you so much for joiningme today, Professor Feringa and
Professor Chu, this was afascinating discussion, most
inspiring.
I'm sure will be so inspiringfor our listeners, for
scientists and business peoplealike, by the way, as we strive
(38:14):
to ensure our scientificinnovations are the service of
humanity and its progress.
Thank you both.
Ben Feringa (38:21):
pleasure.
Steven Chu (38:21):
Thank you.
Ben Feringa (38:22):
Thank you so much.
Hello everyone.
For some inspiring summerlistening.
We are re-sharing some of ourfavorite episodes on the Power
of Science and Chemistry.
This is the very first episodewe released.
I hope you enjoy thisconversation with Nobel Prize
winners.
(00:23):
Ben Fara and Stephen Chu aboutscience and business at the
service of humanity.
Stay tuned for our next season,featuring our customers and
partners starting in September.
Today.
I'm so excited to be speakingwith not just one, but two Nobel
(00:48):
Prize laureates, Steven Chu andprofessor Ben Feringa.
Steven Chu is a professor ofmolecular and cellular
physiology at StanfordUniversity, and the former US
Secretary of Energy.
In 1997, he was awarded theNobel Prize in Physics for
(01:10):
developing methods to cool andtrap atoms with laser lights.
Ben Feringa is a professor atthe University of Groningen, and
I'm very happy to say the winnerof the 2015 Solvay prize.
In 2016, he won the Nobel Prizein Chemistry for his
(01:31):
groundbreaking research on thedesign and synthesis of
molecular machines.
As a scientist myself who haslong admired your work.
It's such an honor to bespeaking with both of you today.
Thank you so much for beinghere, Stephen and Ben.
So now I know that a lot ofpeople you well from your
(01:54):
scientific achievements, but Iwant to start this podcast
getting to know more about yourbackground and what's motivates
your passion for science.
let me start with you Ben,Professor You have such an
interesting story, and you toldme that a few times.
You grew up on a farm in thebeautiful and land of the
(02:17):
Netherlands, where I livedpersonally, the second of 10
children.
And I've heard you talk a lotabout how impactful that was for
right?
Your youth, how it gave you agreat love of nature and puts
you on the path to becoming ascientist.
And Professor Chu, I read thatwhen you were young, you created
(02:39):
a homemade rocket, and youstarted a small business testing
the chemistry of the soil inyour neighbor's lawn.
I hope they were happy, right?
I want to ask you both, there aspecific moment in your life
that made you really realizethat science was your passion
and your calling.
(03:00):
Ben, I start with you?
Ben Feringa (03:03):
Yeah, very briefly indeed you mentioned I grew up
on the farm in a fairly smallvillage on the German border, a
fairly remote area.
And behind all far behind thefields, there was the German
border and wilderness.
And, you know, crossing bordersthat is what a scientist does.
And I think it started therebecause we illegally crossed the
(03:26):
German border because at thattime it was for me then when I
was a kid, but my father lookedin the other direction and said,
go ahead, discover.
And so on the farm, there is alot to be discovered and to find
out.
Hey, you ask these questions.
I think I asked my father whenwe were in the fields, why is
the sky blue?
Yeah.
(03:47):
And how is it possible that fromthis small corn, you know, this
grain, this huge corn orsunflower growing, but my real
interest in science came when Iwas in highschool.
When I for the first time I hadthe teachers in Chemistry and
Physics, and Mathematics, andI've asked typically I think a
natural science kid, so I gotreally interested, and by this
(04:11):
experiment, by thinking aboutthe stars, thinking about
mathematical formulas, I alwayswanted to solve every formula,
you know?
My best marks where inMathematics for sure.
But then I got so inspired bydoing experiments, my Chemistry
teacher was absolutely fabulous.
And I think a great teachermakes the difference.
(04:31):
And of course I did not buildrockets like Steve Chu, but I
think I did at that time, someexperiments on the loft in the
farm.
And my mother was really scared,you know?
Because you imagine this isabove the animals and there was
a lot of hay and straw, and so Ieasily could have burned the
whole farm.
(04:52):
Everything went well.
And I decided to move, not intomathematics, but to go into
Chemistry because I liked theexperiments.
Ilham Kadri (04:59):
So it's all about professors, right?
Steven, what about you?
Steven Chu (05:03):
I love playing with my hands, I had a chemistry set.
But if you have a chemistry setin those days, you could go to
local chemistry supply storesand buy other chemicals.
You didn't need a permit.
so when you start doingchemistry sets, of course,
sometimes people gravitatetowards more spectacular things
you can do in chemistry, hencebombs and rockets.
(05:27):
I did lots of experiments.
I build model airplanes.
I made things with my hands.
You know, Ben talks aboutfamily.
Perhaps a little bit concernedthat he would set the barn on
fire.
was playing with littlematchstick rockets as little
(05:47):
wooden matchsticks you wrap inaluminum foil, you put it on a
paperclip saying to heat it up.
If you get the nozzle right, youcan send it all the way across
the kitchen.
And but of course, some of thematch heads fell down and they
scorched the table.
So I didn't burn down the house,but I ruined the kitchen,
kitchen table where we ate,mother came home, she looked at
(06:10):
it, she started to cry.
I said, don't worry, mom, justtake us to the lumberyard we'll
buy a new piece, I'll fix it.
This where I was in gradeschool, five to sixth grade, I
too love mathematics.When I wasan undergraduate.
majored in physics andMathematics.
But in the end, it was actuallythinking it's the science that
(06:32):
really mattered.
In mathematics, you can spend,you can stay up all hours of the
night, proving things thatperhaps I thought in the end, 50
people in the world might careabout.
Whereas if you discoversomething in about nature, a lot
more people might care about itand it could also do some good.
Ilham Kadri (06:52):
So let me switch gears.
And since you have recentlyfinished choosing the Solvay
prize winner, let's take amoment to celebrate the
laureates, Katelyn Keriko, hergroundbreaking research led to
the creation of the RNAmessenger COVID-19 vaccine,
(07:12):
which has saved so many livesand helps curb the impacts of
the pandemic.
to her recently last week andshe's a role model, she's an
inspiration, right?
And what's so exciting is thatshe's the second woman to win
the Solvay prize.
thank you guys for bringingdiversity into the mix.
(07:34):
And I had nothing to do withthis by the way, but you did.
So Professors Chu and Feringa,can you explain why you and your
fellow jury members chose her asthe winner and how her
incredible scientificachievements will change the way
we fight diseases?
Steven, can we start with you?
Steven Chu (07:53):
think, you know, your contributions are
undeniable.
She did the groundbreakingscience that discovered you can,
well, we knew that you cansynthesize messenger RNA and DNA
outside with mathematicalprecision.
You can type in what you wantand it, a machine spits it out.
(08:16):
so given that, there was adesire to perhaps use messenger
RNA getting inside the cell, andthat would be the instructions
that a molecule that resistsinstruction can assemble amino
acid chain that makes proteins.
And so by doing so you can skipall the DNA stuff and you can
(08:40):
get the cell to producesomething you want.
And she thought this was goingto be fantastic.
But as soon as she started doingexperiments in animals, she's
found the animal rejects.
so it was her groundbreakingresearch to discover why it
naturally rejects the RNA, eventhough cells every day, make RNA
(09:04):
that turns into messenger RNA,that's the instruction set.
And she
Ilham Kadri (09:10):
Yeah.
Steven Chu (09:10):
found that it's a protection mechanism against
foreign invaders.
And looking at that, she stuckin other artificially made RNA,
and said, well, it doesn't work,there's no rejection of this,
why is this happening, not thathappening?
And together with a colleague ofhers, discovered that if you
(09:31):
change chemically one of thebases from the one you naturally
synthesize to one that's foundin nature, you can fool the
immune system of the organism,the animal.
And it was that breakthroughthat made it so.
Ah, now we can program the RNA,and it was that seminal paper
(09:52):
and some followup papers thatreally led the way.
Ilham Kadri (09:55):
Fabulous.
And you Ben, what's impressedyou.
Ben Feringa (09:59):
I'm extremely pleased, you know, that she got
this award because it's a Solvayprize for the future of
chemistry.
And ofcourse, at the end,basically, it's about molecules.
This is biomolecules, it's aboutsynthesis.
And so this is a clear message,but there is another very
important message here with thisaward and that is to the
society.
(10:20):
Because recently we heard a lotabout all these facts and cannot
be any good because they havebeen developed fairly quickly in
one or two years ago, realizedthis is fundamental science and
discoveries that were madedecades ago.
And this is the basis that makesthese facts in technology
possible.
These are due to this longdevelopment, this is how science
(10:40):
works.
And furthermore, it'smultidisciplinary in nature,,
this is more than science.
You have to look across borders,you know?
You can be very good inChemistry or Physics or Biology,
but usually big discoveries aremade at the edges, and thirdly,
I think it also recognizesdiscoveries that were probably
not recognized at that stage.
(11:02):
I think Steve mentioned it.
At that time, people maybe didnot entirely believe that it
would be useful a lot.
It will be five or whatever.
This happens, you know?
With big discovery.
sometimes people, not even thescientific community immediately
sees the impact, the potentialimpact.
So this is really important alsoto our politicians and
(11:22):
scientists.
Yeah, look ahead.
Scientists should look.
These discoveries might have amajor impact several decades
ahead.
And this is what is theimportance of science, you know?
To have this freedom also tomake this fantastic discoveries
and to bring the world forward.
Ilham Kadri (11:42):
Yeah.
And Ben, this is a great seguebecause when I talk to Katie,
the most inspiring thing I foundabout her is her incredible
story of determination.
She faced failures and manychallenges, getting the funding
throughout her career.
And I remember, ProfessorFeringa, Ben when I met you a
year ago, remember youaddressing the audience here and
(12:06):
you spoke very eloquently aboutfailure I remember.
And
Ben Feringa (12:09):
Yeah.
Steven Chu (12:10):
Um,
Ilham Kadri (12:10):
that if you want to be a scientist, you had to stand
failures and disappointments.
Ben Feringa (12:15):
Well, we all think we are very smart, but honestly,
you know, we have ideas,theories, you know?
We set up models, but often weare wrong and as Steve mentioned
it, just mentioned it, whydoesn't it work?
Why does the experiment not workor why does it have a different
outcome, or why does the theorynot fit?
And this gives you the rightquestions.
(12:35):
Because science is not about theanswers, science is about the
questions, you know?
And this sharpens our questions.
We were working on catalysis for20 years.
Yeah.
Ilham Kadri (12:46):
Yeah.
Ben Feringa (12:47):
For a certain problem that carbon carbon bond
formation, which is crucial inChemistry, you know to chemical
structure And for 20 years, wedid not know how to do it.
And then one of my PhD studentson a Monday morning made a
failure, a complete failure.
I couldn't imagine why he didit, but I think he took the
wrong bottle or whatever, youknow.
(13:08):
And that certainly have worked.
Every year after 20 years thenupbeat in the two weeks we knew
what was going on and why itworked and what we have not
seen.
So these are these eye-openingmoments for scientists.
So failure is also importantbecause this is a learning point
where you can sharpen yourquestions and maybe get to the
right answer.
Ilham Kadri (13:29):
So some of the biggest inventions and
innovations happen because offailures and serendipity, right?
Ben Feringa (13:35):
Serendipity is certainly part of science.
Ilham Kadri (13:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
So aside from being okay withfailure, Steven, what does it
take to be a good scientist,according to you?
Steven Chu (13:48):
Well let me first reinforce what Ben said.
I'm going to call, I thinkWinston Churchill that said that
about prioritizing terms ofsuccessful scientists, is that
you go from failure to failureto failure with continued
enthusiasm.
(14:08):
And I think in addition to doingthis, it's not failing the same
way, the same time again andagain and again, that's not
productive.
After once or twice, maybe threetimes then you think, oh right,
something's wrong, something'smissing, then you look for
clues.
And one of the things that Ilearned was something, when you
(14:33):
do experiments, some people doan experiment expecting a
certain outcome, when somethingelse is different, they say, No,
I can't be.
And then they do something else.
And a good experiment will letnature talk to them.
And when nature talks, listen.
(14:54):
So when you do an experiment,there might be something going
on, it's not exactly theoutcome.
And then also do things slightlydifferent, even if sort of
working.
Again, coaxing out more of theanswer.
And so that's more of an art, Idon't know sure we can put this
in textbooks yet.
(15:20):
That's one of the things aboutfailure.
Failure in a different wayactually tells you something.
And so you, a good sign is takethat all in.
And we live with the ambiguity.
Ben Feringa (15:33):
So Ilham, if I may add to this, you maybe we can
call it all failures, but infact, a lot of these failures
are messages to us.
A clear message is to thinksharper or to reformulate, you
know how we do things or how wethink about it or whatever.
That is ignorant to science.
Ilham Kadri (15:53):
So let me now switch gears to energy and
molecular motors, right?
Which are your sweet spots.
And one of the objectives ofthis is really to explore how
businesses can ensure thatscientific innovation is at the
service of humanity.
I'd like to talk about practicalapplications, Professor Chu,
let's start with you, because inyour former role as the
(16:15):
Secretary of Energy, you havebeen at the heart of the energy
transition and you see firsthandhow sciences has been the to
making it happen.
We are working on EV batteries,right?
It is booming.
We are working on green hydrogenrights and all these renewable
at the service of cleanermobility as an example.
(16:36):
tell us what scientificbreakthroughs are you seeing in
the energy sectors and what doyou think is the best energy mix
for the future?
Steven Chu (16:44):
Well, the best energy mix, so let's start at
the end.
The best energy mix is somethingwhere we have clean energy
carbon-free energy,non-polluting energy, ideally
compact energy.
Meaning that you don't need, youknow, in hundreds and hundreds
of square miles.But it'sgreenhouse gases and it's all
(17:07):
the other pollutions.
But this goes beyond when peoplethink of energy, they think of,
well, they think of electricalpower, they think of But in
fact, energy provideseverything.We use energy to make
the fertilizer and the diesels.
But in addition to that, thefertilizer, when not absorbed by
(17:30):
the plants ends up being agreenhouse gas effect.
And so if we think ofsustainability, then we have to
think of all the things thatlead to greenhouse gas
emissions, agriculture and landuse is more than electricity,
power generation around theworld.
of chemistry is Thermochemistry.
And until very recentlyunthinkable to think of
(17:55):
Electrochemistry as being amainstay on electricity.
Aside from a few things,aluminum chlorine, a few of
them,
Ilham Kadri (18:02):
Yeah.
Steven Chu (18:02):
most of it's Thermochemistry.
So we have an opportunity if wehave very inexpensive electric
energy that you can branch out.
But going beyond that, if youthink about all the things that
we've grown used to and dependon, are used to having lights on
when it gets dark outside.
(18:22):
We're used to having our homeswarm when it's cooler or cold at
night or more recently, perhapscooler than normal as certain
parts of the world get hotterand harder.
These are things that we'vegotten used to.
Transportation we've gotten usedto.
We never dreamed of thesethings.
(18:43):
500 years ago.
Ilham Kadri (18:44):
Yeah.
Steven Chu (18:45):
It would be unthinkable to think you'd be
eating fruits and vegetableshalfway around the world.
Ilham Kadri (18:50):
Yeah.
Steven Chu (18:50):
Okay.
And so now, of these things weshould rethink.
But things, I think science,technology, policy, all these
things could say, we can havethese things, but we can have it
in a way that preserves theresources far longer into the
(19:11):
future.
And especially to stop thegreenhouse gas emissions and the
local pollution the water, theair, the everything.
And so now, in doing so,chemistry actually lies at the
heart of many of these potentialsolutions.
And so this is one of thethings, you know, it's often,
I'm a physicist.
So you would say, physicist theking of science,
Ilham Kadri (19:33):
Yeah.
Steven Chu (19:33):
Chemistry is the linking science to all the other
things, the Chemistry, theBiology, the Physics, Earth
Science, you name it.
And so you know, it's good to beking maybe, but it's better to
be connected to everything.
Ilham Kadri (19:50):
I used to say that Chemistry is the mother of all
industries.
So at the end of the day, isthat at the hearts of it.
To finish on, on maybe batteriesbecause it's very close to our
hearts what do you think will bethe next big thing in batteries?
Steven Chu (20:04):
two things.
If we can get a solid state, abattery that has a solid state
electrolytes, so I would sayconductor, that would be great.
As you say, it's going to be asafer, the electrolytes, current
electrolytes are flammable.
You've got them to get them towork at room temperature and
even freezing temperatures inorder for that to be practical..
(20:25):
need cheaper batteries, you needhigher energy density batteries,
and you need faster chargingbatteries.
do battery research myself, andwe're working on higher energy
density, batteries, and onesthat can weigh half a one third,
what they weigh now.
(20:45):
Faster charging batteries aregoing to become a reality.
you can imagine a car with abattery and electric motor that
can weigh the same as a one anda half or two liter engine,
transmission, and a fuel tank,but can go as far and can charge
maybe miles in five minutes, youwould never think of buying a
(21:12):
combustion engine car, becauseit's so much cheaper to operate
an electric vehicle and themaintenance is far less.
And so the battery is the keyand we are now testing batteries
that can go miles in maybe eightminutes.
Right.
Now, these are not on the marketyet, but, it's getting better.
(21:37):
next thing is, you know, theyhave the way, So that half the
weight means you're not lookinglike a heavy battery, which
means you need a smallerbattery.
Many, many things, these arevery exciting.
It's a matter of when, not if.
we will never charge as fast asyou can to fuel a combustion
(21:59):
engine car, because when you putgasoline or petrol in your car,
the power is 5 million watts ofpower going through that tube
into your car.
but you can transform the worldwith a half a million watts of
power.
And this is what I'm talkingabout.
This time of five minutes.
(22:20):
Because the battery and electricmotors are two times more
efficient, and so you gain backtoo.
So it's going to be a veryexciting time.
But remember, batteries aregoing to transform personal
electrification, but long range,heavy duty air transport is
going to need probably,chemical, liquid, hydrocarbon
(22:44):
that's renewable,
Ilham Kadri (22:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, it's a fascinatingconversation.
Let me switch gears here,Professor Feringa your work on
molecular motors has incrediblepotential, especially in health
care.
Can you explain to our audienceand innovators, explain the
molecular motors?
And what do you think are themost exciting application for
(23:07):
molecular motors in healthcarethat you see coming.
Ben Feringa (23:11):
Yeah.
First of all, let me brieflyexplain these molecular
machines.
And of course there are manypeople in the world working
around it.
And I got this award togetherwith my colleagues.
So Fraser, Stoddart andJean-Pierre Sauvage, we are also
pioneering on different conceptsof molecular machines.
We have been working on lightdriven rotary motors, so to use
(23:32):
light, energy, to make somethingmoving.
Now, why do we think this isfundamentally so important?
Because think of your body, youknow?
I mean, everything moves, thatwe can talk with each other, we
can see each other, you can moveyour muscles, et cetera.
Mother nature invented how tomove things, although they never
made a fuel driven machine, likein your car or in an airplane,
(23:55):
but your body is full ofmachines, you know?
And the most beautiful exampleis the ATPA's role to remodel.
This is by far the mostfantastic road to remodel that
is there in the book.
Yeah, that makes the fuel inyour body, the ATP.
Having said that, moving fromstatic material, like a piece of
plastic to something that isdynamic, et cetera, I think get
(24:19):
by itself will be reallyimportant for the future.
And why is that?
Because you can make all kindsof smart, adaptive materials,
like soft robotics, functionalmaterials that can adapt and
reshape, and whatever.
And also for recycling ofpolymers in the future,
plastics, all these materials,it's really important that we
not only have aestheticfunction, but we bring in
(24:41):
dynamic function.
I'm not saying that our motorswill do that, but once you learn
the principles how to do that,it will be much easier to make
robust materials, but also thathave the propensity that they
began easily recycle.
And this is exactly what ourbody does.
Your body does not fallspontaneously apart, but still
40% of your body also isrecycled everyday.
(25:04):
As far as I learned from mycolleagues in Biology.
Now in medicine, think aboutsmart medicine.
For instance, what we do, webuilt now drugs,
pharmaceuticals, where we buildin light switches so that we can
switch on and off the light.
And this is now a wholecommunity in the world.
You know, when you engineer theneurons and you can then tune,
(25:27):
you know the signals in thebrain, but there you need
genetic modifications.
But what we do is we takeartificial switches, like the
switching your eye.
For instance, we modify it, webring it to a biomolecule.
And the whole idea is that whenyou have a tumor, you can detect
it with this modern detectiontechnique, the modern imaging
(25:48):
techniques that you would beable to switch an anticancer
compound on the activity onright on the spot.
And it does not have all thesenasty side effects.
The same for an antibiotic.
Activating an antibiotic on thespot and it does not harm the
rest of your body.
It does not build up resistance.
That is a bitty idea.
So this goes all the way fromself-cleaning windows, coatings
(26:13):
on your car that you don't haveto wash your car anymore, or you
don't have to repair it becauseitself heals like scratching
your finger to smart drugs.
That is the perspective for thefuture.
It will take a couple ofdecades, but I'm convinced that
it will come.
We have to how it.
Ilham Kadri (26:31):
So it's more than healthcare, right?
Everything at the service ofhumanity, hygiene, cleaning
Ben Feringa (26:36):
Hygiene cleaning, self repair, I think mother
nature, does it, why cannot wedo it?
We just have to be smarter todevelop it.
Ilham Kadri (26:45):
Absolutely.
I know that you both have astrong, very strong interest in
environmental sustainability.
You have a passion forsustainable Chemistry.
Can you tell us Ben more aboutHow you see Science and
Chemistry enable that moresustainable future in time where
(27:06):
climate change, the risk ofpandemic, look at what's
happened, the world stoppedbecause of COVID-19.
It brings the sense of urgencyto take care of our home, the
planet,
Ben Feringa (27:18):
Yeah.
Ilham Kadri (27:18):
the next generation, our kids wants us to
leave a legacy, which is acleaner planet, right?
So how you see chemistry, whichsometimes has a bad label,
Ben Feringa (27:30):
Yeah.
Ilham Kadri (27:31):
in the industry I belong to you know,
Ben Feringa (27:34):
let me, let me make one thing clear.
Of course there are seriousissues, but I see it as
tremendous challenges for us.
Realize that if I would tell mystudents, you know, that I was
teaching today and I will tellthem- Oh, it's disastrous.
You know what happens in theworld?
(27:54):
They will not have a spirit forthe future.
These are all these bright,young people.
We have to tell them, see it aschallenges and reshape
chemistry.
For instance, you know, I'm achemist and the same holds for
parts of physics, material,science, engineering, biology.
How can we reshape and help tochange this?
See it as a challenge, you know?
To bring the world forward tosustainable solutions.
(28:16):
And I think we can do it.
In the past 120, 140 years, wehave all benefited for
Petrochemistry.
This is the basis of a lot ofthings we make.
From the fuels in our planes, tothe cars, to your clothes, to
our food, whatever, thefertilizers.
Now we cannot continue withbuilding everything based on
(28:37):
Petrochemistry, so we have tocome up with alternatives.
But I think we have onlyscratched the surface of what is
possible.
So I think there are tremendousopportunities here to come up
with cleaner processes.
Steve mentionedElectrochemistry.
We can do a lot withelectricity, because a lot of
chemical processes are redoxprocesses, just adding electrons
(29:00):
or taking charges away.
If we better use that andexplore that, I think we will
have much cleaner processes inthe future.
Recycling is another thing.
We are extremely good in makingall kinds of materials, building
all the materials for anairplane or in the car, the
isolation materials, all theplastics, et cetera, but we are
(29:22):
not very good at recyclingthings.
So, if you think about designingmaterials within the back of
your head, not only to design arobust material, but also design
the property, that it can beproperly recycled into useful
materials, starting materialsand whatever.
That's a different attitude.
And that's a challenge for us.
(29:42):
And I think, yeah, it will bedifficult, but we can do it.
Ilham Kadri (29:47):
Yeah, this is very inspiring.
And you're right.
I mean I remember when I was achemist in the lab 25 years ago,
doing my PhD, I was asked tomake a polymer, which works not
to design a polymer, which canhave a second life after its end
of life in current life.
Ben Feringa (30:04):
Yeah.
And honestly, we are a bitspoiled because a lot of the
materials that the chemists andthe physicists, and so our
communities designed and made,they are simply too good.
They are so good, you know?
For all these kinds of tasks andduties that we did not really
think about how to go to thenext steps.
So we have to rethink a lot ofthese concepts, you know?
(30:25):
But that can be done.
I'm convinced.
Ilham Kadri (30:27):
Do you agree, Stephen that circularity is part
of the answer to sustainablechallenges.
Yeah.
Steven Chu (30:34):
Absolutely.
I think as Ben said, todiscovering oil, discovering the
Chemistry that comes with oil,natural gas, and the
petrochemical industry, got verygood, they got very inexpensive,
they got very durable.
Before that, when we made thingsof natural materials, wood, for
example or rubber, there's somevalue inherent value in this.
(30:59):
We made things that wererepairable because the starting
products were not, you know,sold pennies to the kilogram.
And so now what we have is wehave something different.
Yes, it could still beinexpensive, but the full cost
(31:20):
to our lives, to the environmentare much higher.
And so now we have to think ofrecycling because recycling
means in a certain sense,repairable.
We went to a disposable economybecause people figured out- Oh,
you build a refrigerator, makeit last 10 years, not 50 years,
throw it away buy another one.
(31:44):
This does not do the environmentany good.
And so this whole business ofmaking things last longer,
repairable, ultimatelyrecyclable has to be designed in
from the ground up.
And in terms of petrochemicals,it is a very ticklish question.
It is how you actually designedthis stuff that was so durable,
(32:06):
so inexpensive to say, comeapart when we want you to come
apart, back to the originalbuilding blocks and then
reassemble.
That's what life does.
Ilham Kadri (32:15):
yeah,
Steven Chu (32:16):
blocks of proteins are amino acids, they recycle
them.
They are things, little machinesthat chop them up in the amino
acids again.
Ilham Kadri (32:24):
So recycling, we should be greedy with the
resources and use
Ben Feringa (32:28):
I mean,
Ilham Kadri (32:28):
and again.
Ben Feringa (32:29):
Honestly, living nature, mother nature, doesn't
spoil so much.
Ilham Kadri (32:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Ben Feringa (32:33):
They are very good in recycling and reusable.
Steven Chu (32:35):
recycled.
Ben Feringa (32:36):
yourself,
Ilham Kadri (32:37):
yeah,
Ben Feringa (32:38):
by yourself.
The bacteria use it forinstance, on plans grow on it,
yeah?
Ilham Kadri (32:42):
This is exceptional.
So I will have another podcaston recycling and circularity
with you guys.
Lastly, we are getting to theend of the podcast so, one last
question.
What did winning the Nobel Prizemean to you both?
Ben Feringa (32:56):
Now for me, of course it was a dream coming
true, yeah?
And that having said that, youknow, I was not busy with a
Nobel Prize or whatever, youknow?
I was fascinated by thisscientific adventure, the
discovery that started alreadywhen I was a kid.
I mentioned, yeah, the adventureof wanted to know.
(33:19):
And I was reading these books ofHumboldt and about adventurers,
discoverers.
And then suddenly you realize ata certain point that you are.
Steven Chu (33:29):
Um,
Ben Feringa (33:30):
discoverer that is recognized in the world and it's
like a dream coming true, youknow?
And I wish every talent, youknow, to have these kind of
dreams
Ilham Kadri (33:41):
steven?
Steven Chu (33:41):
Well, you know, I did not appreciate it, it took
me a while.
In the sense that, you know,people are going to say, well,
maybe you're going to get aNobel prize.
And I just shrug my shoulders.
And because I'm thinking, well,I got a few Nobel laureates.
(34:02):
Before the prize, they were verygood scientists.
After prize, they didn'tsuddenly become better
scientists.
And so it never hit me that,yeah, among the scientists,
maybe it's all right.
You know, but in the generalpublic, it was very different.
(34:23):
And it actually didn't hit meuntil the night of the ceremony.
you march out into convertedopera house that I realized,
wait a minute, this isdifferent.
You know, you're going to becomepart of history.
thing that I did not fullyappreciate it is did appreciate.
(34:45):
I said, I'm never going to speakabout something I don't know
anything about.
That's a Nobel Prize disease.
But as a citizen of the world,does that mean?
And I started this around year2000.
I got my prize in 97, but around2000, I got interested.
(35:06):
Maybe these people talking aboutclimate change perhaps I was
skeptical.
I started reading.
I kept my word.
I was never going to talk aboutanything I didn't know anything
about, what it made me do is tolearn about it,
Ilham Kadri (35:18):
Yeah.
Steven Chu (35:21):
if you are informed, you do have another voice, an
extra voice
Ben Feringa (35:26):
Yeah.
Steven Chu (35:27):
scientists don't have.
But it's the duty of people inthis position to become very
well informed before they starttalking.
it also changed my life because,since the middle of 2000, I put
my scientific career sort of onhold for a decade, and said, I'm
(35:48):
gonna try to do what I can inorder to let people understand
what the challenges are and tryto inspire them to go in and
change their careers, and whatthey know in science to help
with climate sustainability,energy, all of these things.
Now,
Ben Feringa (36:08):
Yeah.
Steven Chu (36:08):
then, since leaving the only thing I want to do is
go back to science.
I started, but it changed mylife.
I started doing research inthese areas as well.
but I would not have done that.
Had I not had a Nobel prize
Ben Feringa (36:26):
What changed in my life was that of course I still
do science, but the opportunityto go to advocate the importance
of science to society, to thegeneral public, you know?
Appearance on radio andwhatever, to go to schools, to
encourage the young students,you know, in high schools, in
(36:49):
elementary schools, all thesekinds of things that never was
so intense then after the NobelPrize.
And apparently this is afantastic opportunity to do
that.
And it helps a lot.
Yeah, to advocate the importanceof science, to bring our future
forward, to bring the talentsforward.
And also you should be, how doyou call it, what Steve said,
(37:12):
certainly they think, you know,you have an opinion about
everything.
Yeah.
So I want to quote my wife whowas asked by a journalist on
television- How is that to bemarried to a Nobel Prize winner?
And you know, her answer was- Heseems to know a lot about
Chemistry.
Ilham Kadri (37:30):
Fabulous.
So another proof of yourleadership Humility is the best
and one of the most fascinatingattributes of great leaders.
my takeaway is that the journey,focus on the journey.
The journey is fascinating,brilliant.
The destination can be as brightas bringing you to Nobel Prize.
And listen, you are part of thehistory of Nobel Prize, but I
(37:52):
know that your legacy and yourwork and contribution are
invaluable and part of ourfuture.
So thank you so much for joiningme today, Professor Feringa and
Professor Chu, this was afascinating discussion, most
inspiring.
I'm sure will be so inspiringfor our listeners, for
scientists and business peoplealike, by the way, as we strive
(38:14):
to ensure our scientificinnovations are the service of
humanity and its progress.
Thank you both.
Ben Feringa (38:21):
pleasure.
Steven Chu (38:21):
Thank you.
Ben Feringa (38:22):
Thank you so much.
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