June 16, 2025 • 37 mins
Validation might be the missing piece in your most challenging relationships. In this illuminating conversation with therapist Sara Kassam, we dive deep into why so many of our interactions break down and how one powerful communication skill can transform them.
The revelation at the heart of our discussion? Validation doesn't require agreement. This distinction liberates us to acknowledge others' emotional experiences without endorsing perspectives we don't share. "You can validate that someone is feeling upset or hurt," Sara explains, "without validating the action of them yelling at you or insulting you."
We examine the subtle ways invalidation creeps into our everyday language through phrases like "you shouldn't feel that way" or the particularly problematic "I'm sorry you feel that way"—words that appear empathetic but actually distance us from accountability and connection. Through practical examples, we demonstrate how replacing "but" with "and" in our responses creates space for multiple truths to exist simultaneously.
The conversation takes an honest turn when we address the discomfort that drives our invalidating behaviors. Often, we jump to problem-solving or dismissing emotions because sitting with someone else's feelings triggers our own insecurities. This awareness allows us to approach communication differently—from conscious self-reflection rather than defensive reactivity.
Whether you're struggling with a romantic partner, family member, coworker, or even your relationship with yourself, this episode offers tangible strategies to break free from destructive communication cycles. As Sara reminds us, "Communication is just a form of connection seeking"—and validation might be the key to the connection you've been missing.
Thank you for tuning into And Still WE Rise! If you would like to learn more about me or the work our practice is doing, feel free to follow us on Instagram at:
@atltherapygirl and @risetherapycenter
Or check us out at www.risetherapycenter.com
Disclaimer: And Still We Rise is meant to provide perspective and meaningful conversations around mental health topics. It is not meant to provide specific therapeutic advise to individuals. If anything in these podcasts resonates, ASWR recommends consulting with your individual therapist or seeking a referral from your primary care physician.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello and welcome to In Still we Rise.
I'm your host, christine Seidel, and today we have a therapist
with us, sara Kassam.
How are you?
I'm doing great.
How are you?
I'm doing well?
Thank you so much for joiningus.
I am just going to read alittle bit about the work that
Sara does and then we're goingto start our topic for today.
(00:26):
So let's talk about Sarah.
Sarah is a therapist at RiseTherapy Center.
She enjoys using an empathicand tailored therapeutic
approach when working withclients, as she believes there
is no one-size-fits-all solutionto care.
Sara often uses cognitivebehavioral therapy and
(00:47):
dialectical behavioral therapyand operates from a family
systems theory andperson-centered approach when
providing services.
When working alongside children, sara aims to use creative and
playful approaches.
Sara strives to meet you whereyou are in your healing journey.
Welcome Sarah.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Thank you, I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and fun little side note your last
name is about to change, socongratulations.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Thank you.
It's going to be a big processtrying to get the name change
thing started.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
And probably odd to like start hearing it on a
regular basis.
You know, as a woman, it's kindof like oh wait, my name is
different, so congratulations,and we can't wait to celebrate
that new journey for you.
So well, today, talking aboutrelationships, talking about
(01:46):
therapeutic work, we're going totalk about healthy
communication, which sounds kindof like just a you know
everyday type of thing, but astherapists, we really realize
how very little healthycommunication actually goes on
in relationships.
So tell us a little bit of howwould you define healthy
(02:07):
communication and why is it apart of, like any foundational
relationship, whether it'sfamily, romantic, friendship,
work, whatever.
What is healthy communicationand why is it so important?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
It's so hard to define, I feel like, but I think
the main thing that I look forin communication, in any of my
relationships and also as atherapist, is like are you able
to be open and are you able tobe honest and also being
comfortable enough to bevulnerable too?
So I think with communicationsometimes things can get
misinterpreted if we don't havethe part of us being open, us
(02:47):
being willing to be vulnerablewith someone else and, of course
, that vulnerability andopenness doesn't come if there's
no underlying trust.
But that's like thefoundational portion of
communication.
There's got to be some level oftrust so that you can build up
the openness, vulnerability andhonesty.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, so that you can build up the openness,
vulnerability and honesty.
Yeah, and I think, ultimately,I mean communication is our
means to some external end.
Right, like communicationstarts if it's like we need to
inform or we need to solve or weneed to declare something, yeah
, right, so communication, if wedidn't need communication, we
(03:27):
would just be, you know, kind of, even even if it's nonverbal,
we still be doing the same thing, right, and a lot of unhealthy
nonverbal communication thatgoes on in our body language too
.
So, you know, community healthycommunication is really needed
because we, ultimately, we havesome end goal with it, which
(03:49):
would be why unhealthycommunication is so disruptive
to our process, I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Definitely, and I think it's difficult sometimes
because it's not like we're insometimes we're not
intentionally trying tocommunicate in a way that's
unhealthy, it's just the waythat we've learned, you know,
learned behavior.
And then it also is importantfor us to take that signs of our
social signaling, like what arewe portraying, what are our
nonverbal cues, what are ourverbal cues?
I think it's really difficultto tell.
(04:18):
Sometimes too, with differentrelationships, like in romantic
relationships.
I'm more likely to speak in adifferent way with my fiance
than I do with like my client,as opposed to like my parents.
So it's very nuanced too inthat sense.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
It really is and I think that you know, within all
of those different relationships, they're really trying to seek,
you know, like I said earlier,some end goal.
So when that's not happening,that's typically when people are
like, huh, something might beoff.
And I, you know, we, we workwith people every day and so
many people come in and they'relike I'm literally the best
(04:55):
communicator, like when I docouples work, they'll be like I
am.
One of them will be like I'msuch a great communicator, I
constantly talk about myfeelings, and there are other
partners like absolutely not.
What are some common sides?
That communication in arelationship has become
unhealthy or they're in apattern of unhealthy
(05:16):
communication?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, I think the main thing that I look out for
is, like are you able tovalidate and is the person
feeling validated after yourconversation?
And I think that's where thingsget a little bit tricky too,
because we oftentimes, when wehear the word validation, we
automatically tie that in withagreement and approval, and
that's the part where I the onething that I want people to take
(05:40):
away is that validation doesnot mean agreement.
It just means that you'rehearing the other person and
being willing to validate theemotion that they're feeling.
It's possible to validate thatthey're feeling upset, angry,
hurt, but you don't have tovalidate the action of them
yelling at you or screaming atyou or insulting you.
I think that's the main thingthat I look out for Like how do
I feel after this conversationwith this person?
(06:01):
Do I feel validated and whatcan I do differently?
Speaker 1 (06:06):
in my conversations, yeah, and I oftentimes like, I
think what we end up seeing islike that end result, right,
like the end result of theirpattern, you know.
So they're coming in becausethey actually are staying in the
same conversation over and overand over.
It's a pattern of that's apattern of unhealthy
(06:27):
communication where you actuallycan't get to any resolution,
whether the person feels seenand heard, or whether there's an
agreement that has been able totake place, or whether repair
has has, you know, been beendone.
You know, that's where wereally see these patterns of
unhealthy communications, whenthey're literally having the
(06:48):
same conversation over and overagain, and that's typically
because validation hasn'toccurred at any level.
So tell us more about what doesvalidation mean in the context
of healthy communication?
We know it's needed, but whatdoes validation really mean in a
healthy communication, healthyrelationship?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, I think the first part of validation is just
the basics, like making eyecontact with the person while
they're talking to you.
I'm actively listening to themnodding along while they're
talking, and it doesn't have tobe like a dramatic, like oh yeah
, you know, it's just subtle,like body language, like eye
contact, making sure we'relistening to them, showing them
(07:32):
that we're interested in whatthey're saying and then
empathizing.
I think listening to them,showing them that we're
interested in what they'resaying and then empathizing, I
think so, like we've heard whatthey said, and then we repeat it
back to them like hey, thatmakes sense to me as to why you
would feel that way.
I would also feel that way if Iwas in this situation and then
giving feedback like you must befeeling hurt, you must be
feeling whatever, and then askthem is that correct?
Did I interpret that correctly?
(07:53):
I think that's the way that Ilike to you know, bundle up my
validation like start withunderstanding where you're
coming from, listening to whatthey're having to say and then
seeing, like my understandingyou correctly, like it's okay to
ask, like, is this correct?
Because, again, we're nottrying to guess how they're
feeling or also not wanting toput words in their mouth either.
So it's kind of having tonavigate that little balance
(08:14):
there.
And I think one thing that I'veseen a lot also is whenever we
have couples and they'redisagreeing, they always, you
know, they want to portray theirperspective by saying no, I'm
sorry, but actually I see itthis way.
Now see, that's not necessarilyvalidation.
Instead, I would say somethinglike I hear you and I see it
this way, as opposed to sayingI'm sorry, but because then the
(08:35):
but just negates everything youjust said.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah, it's interesting in like
communication how, when somebodythat we're in a relationship
with, regardless of what therelationship type is, when they
come to communicate us, it'slike we're already from, you
know, for an unhealthy patternof communication.
We're already trying to figureout how to fix or confront
whatever information they'recoming at us with.
(09:01):
So let's say, a wife comes homeand she's, you know, just
totally flustered because oftraffic, and this person, like,
cut her off and gave her themiddle finger, and you know
she's all flustered.
And she comes home and thehusband's like, well, you know,
maybe next time, you know, don'tdo this.
And already the communicationhas been cut off because
ultimately, that's not asituation that needs anything to
(09:26):
be fixed, it doesn't needanything to be overcome, it just
needs to be expressed Right.
And we don't realize in so manyways how unavailable we become
in communication when we've beenin unhealthy patterns that
we're not even really hearingwhat it is that the person is is
(09:46):
actually expressing, you know.
And so I think it's soimportant when we notice these
patterns of, of, of, and it'salmost like a visceral feeling
within the body.
It's like we almost contract alittle bit when we, yeah, like
you get defensive like.
And then, all of a sudden, youknow something that just needed
to be validated in terms of likeoh my gosh, I can't believe
(10:08):
somebody cut you off and themiddle finger, what is wrong
with you, you know?
And then we're like, yeah,that's right.
And then our, if our partnercontinues, then we're like, yeah
, that's right.
And then, if our partnercontinues, then we're kind of
like, yeah, I mean, actually itwasn't that bad and we can move
through it so much more becausewe actually no longer have to
hold on to that feeling of theinjustice of being cut off in
traffic.
Right?
So with validation, how do weactually really support
(10:34):
ourselves in validation?
Because I love that.
You said validation is notabout agreeing with somebody,
it's about being present withsomebody.
So how does that actuallysupport us too?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, in a way, like by validating others, we're also
making sure we're, you know,looking inwards, validating
ourselves.
So I think something that I seea lot with some of my high
performing clients is like theyfeel like, you know, they should
already know how to do this,they should already be doing
this, and then they are not ableto have empathy for themselves
because they're like, well, thisis something that I should
(11:09):
already have known myself.
They're not able to validatethe emotion that they're having,
the feeling that, oh, like,maybe, like I'm feeling a little
scared, I'm feeling a littlenervous.
I think validation can applyinwards, too.
You can work on validating theemotions you have.
You don't have to validate thefact that you, you know, did
something that was hurtful tosomeone.
You can validate that you werehurt, so maybe that's why you
hurt them.
(11:29):
I think that's a stuck pointthat I see a lot too like about
the action.
Like sometimes, if someonemakes a, they really get hard on
themselves or they want to likerectify that.
And again, we don't have tovalidate the fact that you made
the mistake, just validate thefact that you know, you feel a
certain way about it and ithappened.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Well, and I think that you know what you're kind
of speaking to is that you know,when we practice validation,
we're actually coming to a placeof acceptance too, right?
So two things can coexist youcan have that experience and I
cannot agree with it, right, butthat doesn't mean that conflict
(12:08):
has to occur.
It means you can have thatexperience and I can attend to
it, and I can still hold myperspective and move through it.
And it's almost like you'recoming to a point of acceptance
of, like I choose therelationship over choosing the
need to be right or the need tofix, Like I'm choosing the
(12:29):
relationship over my sense of ofrightness, I guess, in whatever
way, that, yeah, and that's sodifficult to do because, you
know, in that heat of the moment, you're like I just want you
know, I just want to convey mypoint.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
It doesn't matter how I convey it, it's like I just
want to convey it and that'ssomething that I always see like
with.
Well, I often see not always Ioften see Pretty regularly
though.
Yeah, I often see with couplestoo, like but the example you
gave about the wife coming homeall she wanted was someone to
validate that she was feelingthat certain way and not jump
(13:04):
into problem solving.
And I think that's a great wayfor us to even build
communication, like when thewife shares says hey, what do
you need from me right now?
Do you want to just vent?
Do you want me to give youfeedback?
Do you want me to help youproblem solve?
Like, tell me how I can supportyou.
And I think that's a goodconversation starter too, to
help get the communicationflowing.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Yeah, and I think that like that validation can
can even be from a playful stateright, like that example of the
wife, you know coming home andand the injustice of somebody
flipping her off and you knowgetting, you know getting stuck
in traffic and your partnerbeing kind of your cheerleader.
You know that's a form ofvalidating.
It was like how dare somebodycut off my sweet baby?
(13:43):
You know she's got to get homeand like we have like wine ready
and you know like there's aplayful state in that too, of
being like ah, I don't, I hatethat for you too, you know, and
it helps us move through thingswhere we're able to, even as a
person that's venting, is ableto come back to presence and be
(14:05):
like oh my gosh, you're right,it actually it was a middle
finger and that's about somebodybeing completely unhinged right
now and I don't need to carrythat with me.
So also, you know, when we feelvalidation in a conversation,
it's not only that we come backto a place of like connection
with somebody else, is that weconnect to ourselves and we're
(14:27):
kind of like wait a minute, mebeing upset about this is really
not authentic to who I am.
So I'm gonna like move throughsomething that is really
actually not something I care tocare to carry along with me.
So I think it really does endup kind of diffusing a lot of
unhealthy communication dynamicsthat don't serve the
(14:48):
relationship and don't serve us,right, you know?
And it's so important.
Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
No, you go ahead.
No, I would say it's soimportant for us to be attuned
to that too, like, especiallywith our partner, like knowing,
like what is it that you knowvibes well with them, like, is
this going to help them rightnow?
Is me jumping into the problemsolving mode going to fix how
they're feeling?
And I think the fixing part isour.
A lot of things just get alittle comfortable because you
know you don't like seeing yourpartner in distress.
(15:14):
We want to fix them.
You don't like seeing yourfriend in distress, but fixing
it and jumping in to do that isnot always the solution.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Yeah, and oftentimes that's a sign of, like our own
discomfort that they're feelingthat way.
So that brings me to the nextquestion, because this all
sounds great and wonderful, butI know that both of us work with
high conflict families.
You know, we do somethingcalled reunification therapy at
our, at our work, where, youknow, conflict has been the
(15:45):
basically the foundation ofthese relationships, right?
So validation is something thatwe really need to be achieved
in order to start workingthrough to some type of
healthier dynamic.
But when we start talking topeople about this, they really,
because there's been so muchconflict, they're like I don't
even know how to get what do youmean validated?
(16:05):
That's not what I said.
So how can you actuallypractice validation without
necessarily agreeing orendorsing somebody else's
experience somebody else's youknow experience, so to speak?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
That's.
You know that's a really goodquestion, because I think
something that I often revertback to is the and.
So, like I think sometimes,when we put in the but saying,
okay, you feel that way, but Ifeel this way, so that's why my
opinion is more valid than yours.
I think adding in the and liketwo like you said dialectics,
two things that are opposing,can still be true.
(16:44):
You can still feel this wayabout my child, and I can still
disagree with the fact that youfeel this way, and realizing
that that's not that doesn'tmean that there's conflict.
That just means that you don'tagree on the same thing, and it
doesn't necessarily need to turninto a big, prolonged fight.
And again, it's easier said thandone, right, but I think the
(17:04):
easiest way that I found it tobe beneficial is just replacing
the but to the and and, evenpracticing validating ourselves.
I think it starts within us,and then we can move our way out
too, and just being radicallygenuine, like we're not going to
be.
It's not a power struggle, itdoesn't have to.
You don't have to one up theother person.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that's that's key is that
you know, especially in any typeof relationship, even within
ourselves, we really do have twoexperiences, you know.
So within ourselves we have theconscious and the unconscious
experience of something right,and within a relationship we
have two or more experiences andvalidation within, let's just
(17:45):
say, there is a fight and, ofcourse, healthy communication.
You know, if we go into a lotof the semantics of it, you know
we start going into unhealthydynamics when we start saying
you did this right.
But even when we say, hey, Ifeel disrespected when this,
that or the other occurred andthe other person is like, yes,
(18:06):
but all of a sudden we're shutdown.
Right, and so we can.
You know, part of this isaccepting that somebody can
experience something and that isvalid, like they're feeling
around.
That experience is valid andour intention could have never
been to be disrespectful and wecan validate that feeling.
(18:26):
We say, hey, I'm so sorry thatwhat you know, when I said that
it came across disrespectful,and know that that was never my
intention.
I was really trying tocommunicate this, that or the
other.
So all of a sudden now we havea feeling that an experience
that brought about a feelingthat's valid and an expression
(18:52):
of intention, right, andoftentimes those two things do
not.
They don't equate to each other.
Yeah, so we, we want somebodywho's experienced to match our
intention, and that doesn'talways happen.
You know, this isn't, this isn'tmath, right?
We have all the dynamics andthe same thing happens within us
(19:13):
, right, consciously, I, I mightexperience something and
unconsciously I have a storyplaying out being like I'm so
stupid, blah, blah, blah, likenever good enough.
My conscious part has to say,hey, I know that that made you
feel that way and that has neverbeen the truth, right?
(19:33):
So, yes, that feeling comesfrom somewhere and I space for,
for a different narrative, youknow.
So that validation.
You know, if we get even toostuck in trying to fix within
ourselves or trying to defendwithin ourselves, we end up not
getting a full processing ofthat experience or of that
(19:55):
emotion.
So, so how would you supportsomebody who's really, really
struggling to start the processof validation, especially, let's
say, in a relationship wherethey they do tend to find
themselves in a little bit ofhigher defensiveness?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
I think for that, like I just identifying, like
within yourself hey, whatemotion am I feeling right now
and what is its purpose?
What is this emotion trying totell me?
So let's say, for example, Ijust came home from a long day
of work.
I come home, the dishes are notdone, the house is a mess.
I had asked my husband to dothis one thing and he didn't do
(20:36):
it.
So, in my head, what emotion amI already starting to feel?
Irritation, anger.
What is this irritation andanger telling me?
It's telling me that I amuncomfortable by something that
happened.
It's telling me that somethingwas misconveyed in my
communication with my husband.
That's when, once you'veanalyzed what emotion you're
having, then I would really say,like you know, how can I
confront this in a way thatdoesn't come across as if I'm
(20:59):
attacking him?
And that's when the I feelstatements come in.
Right.
I felt this emotion when I sawall of this.
I don't want to assume that youdidn't do it because you're
trying to neglect me, or youbecause you're intentionally
trying not to listen to what Ihave to say, but this is how I
felt about it and I want toconvey to you that this is what
was going on in my head.
(21:19):
So, coming from that approach,instead of immediately going
into, well, you should have donethis.
You're not listening to me.
You did this on purpose.
You never listened to anythingI have to say, and then it is
spirals.
So I think that would be likethe easiest way to like not
immediately go into attack mode.
But now I just realized youasked about defensiveness.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
So I mean, actually that was a really good
recommendation.
It's like huh, yeah, maybedon't start from.
Oh, I see I came.
Actually it's funny because Iactually came home the other day
hangry.
Like I was hangry, I had words,there was soccer, all this
stuff, and I saw that like thehouse was a mess, there was no
stuff, and I saw that like thehouse was a mess, there was no
dinner, and I was like I wasalready in that state.
(22:01):
You know, and you know,sometimes, even as therapists,
like people think we have, youknow, we've, we've mastered all,
mastered all these skills, butwe still have to be and I think
this is the key coming to aconscious place as to what is my
emotion and how can Icommunicate this, from a place
of staying in connection withmyself and with somebody else
(22:22):
and understanding that thatemotion doesn't it doesn't mean
that that was the intention ofsomebody you know.
So I think, yes, the the firststep to learning to validate is
to become very conscious of youremotions.
From somebody else'scommunication, whether it's
verbal or nonverbal dishes,everywhere, that's a nonverbal
(22:42):
communication of I'm, I'm notrespected, right, and then we
come from that emotional place,you know.
So, really, that first step isabout kind of consciously seeing
what, what is the feeling I'mhaving and how do I need to
address it.
And using those I statements isso important because it's not
(23:02):
coming from a projected place,it's coming from a more embodied
place.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Yeah, and that way you can distance yourself from
the stories you're tellingyourself about the emotion too.
Like, if I'm having thisemotion, the story I'm telling
myself is that my husbanddoesn't respect me.
So how can I come from this,from like?
How can I bring awareness andconsciousness to this part so
that I do not go into an attack?
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah, and I think a lot of the conversations we've
kind of had is about being youknow how to respond when we have
a reaction to something.
But I think the more you becomenuanced and validation, you
also can come at it from aproactive standpoint, right?
So in your scenario of cominghome and the house is a mess,
kind of like I should have donelast week which I didn't, you
(23:46):
know, love the accountability,exactly Right, like I need to
hold myself accountable, um isseeing, you know, seeing
something needing to address it,because it did feel like
disrespect, going to that personand saying, hey, it looks like
you've had probably a reallybusy day and you know you've had
(24:07):
a lot of tasks to address.
So I wanted to just make sure.
You know, was there a plan forthe kitchen, or was there a plan
for this, that and the other,or do we need to find a
different solution, right?
So you know that also goes intoa whole other slew of things
(24:28):
like expectations versusagreements, and you know I'm
sure we'll have to have you backon for more healthy
communication skills.
But so validation, you knowit's a tough thing for people to
grapple with and oftentimesthey go into more invalidating
statements.
So can you give me an exampleof like okay, we've talked about
validation, how to practice it,how to say it, that it's not
necessarily agreeing, but whatdoes invalidating statements
(24:50):
look like and what are some ofthem?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Yeah, and I feel like invalidation is something that
can occur based on yourenvironment, and it can also
occur without even like us.
Intentionally wanting toinvalidate can be things like oh
, like you should not be crying,that's not something to cry
about, there's no need to becrying.
That gives us the message that,oh, maybe there's something
wrong with me, maybe I shouldnot be crying.
(25:14):
What's wrong with me that I amcrying.
Or a statement like oh, shouldnot be crying.
Like what, what's wrong with methat I am crying?
Or a statement like oh, I had asimilar situation like that.
Again, there's it's okay toempathize, but then when it
becomes more of like oh, I had asituation like that too, when I
experienced this, and this isyou know, I completely know what
you're going through and thenmaking it about them.
So the biggest, biggest onethat I've seen, at least when
(25:37):
working with high conflictfamilies, is you know the you
shouldn't feel that way.
I don't understand why you feelthat way.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
You're too sensitive, or I've experienced this too,
and I was just fine, so I don'tknow why you're not fine point
of like their intention theythey are probably thinking their
intention is to help fix it, orlike let me tell you how I did
(26:04):
this, or let me you know.
Like let me tell you, this isn'tsomething sad to be to be
crying about.
That's probably their intention, unfortunately.
What's that's actually about isthem and their discomfort, and
they're not wanting to to feeldysregulated, or they want to be
(26:24):
seen and heard in theirexperience.
Right, so that is, those areall like such invalidating
statements that probably comefrom a place of like I want to
fix this, I don't want them tofeel this way, or I want them to
know they're not alone, but itactually pulls back that space
where we can really attune andattend to somebody that we care
(26:45):
about and and something you know, a phrase that I hear a lot
about and and I think peoplebelieve it comes from a genuine
place or a validating place, butit's actually very invalidating
is I'm sorry you feel that way.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
You know, I just feel like an apology yeah, no, it
doesn't and invalidation.
You know, sometimes that needsto lead to a repair, right.
But when we say I'm sorry youfeel that way, what we're really
saying is I'm sorry, that'syours and I can't be.
(27:25):
I have no part of it.
Yeah, I have no part of that.
Yeah, and that's a veryinvalidating and very shutting
down statement.
But yet people will often feellike, well, look, I apologize
that you were feeling that way,but it has no ownership.
And that happens a lot,especially in parent-child
relationships or in romanticrelationships, where we're so
(27:47):
uncomfortable that our partneris feeling a certain way,
probably because of somethingthat we've participated in that
we know we need to have someaccountability, but we can't
hold full accountability.
So we say I'm sorry that youfeel that way.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Because then it goes back onto the other person.
We don't have to identify theemotions we're feeling and the
uncomfort we're feeling, becauseit just goes right back.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah.
So let's say somebody who'slistening to this or watching
this.
They're seeing eitherthemselves which we tend to not
see that unless they come totherapy themselves in a very
unhealthy pattern ofcommunication or maybe a very
unhealthy pattern ofcommunication or they're
(28:32):
receiving, you know, a lot ofinvalidating statements.
Most likely both parties areparticipating in it.
But what would you say would bethe next steps to really start
harnessing the power of healthycommunication?
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Yeah, so are you saying like if they are the
receiver of the invalidation?
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Or vice versa.
You know what would be thefirst steps to take.
You know if you're recognizingyou're in a cycle of unhealthy
communication with someone orpeople in general.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Definitely, I would definitely try my best to like
address it in a way that's againso reflecting back, having the
conscious awareness of whatemotions are coming up for me
and laying down what the factsare like here.
The fact is that this person Ihave observed this person say
this to me in this specificquote.
I have observed the feelingthat came up for me when they
said this, and now I want to beable to talk to this person
(29:36):
about it Because, again, it alsodepends on whether, like how
important this relationship isto you.
This is someone that is veryimportant, close to you, and you
have a desire to repair therelationship.
I would definitely encouragethat person to you know, let's
go up to this person you know,granted that it is a safe person
and they're not in danger inany way by interacting with them
, but just going up and saying,hey, I felt this emotion when I
(29:58):
heard you say this to me.
I want to clarify what was yourintention with this and I mean,
if there's something that I'mmissing, what can I do to
improve our communication?
That's just how I typicallyapproach that.
I know it can be different withdifferent case-by-case basis.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Which I think is a great way to kind of encourage
people, if they're seeing apattern, to seek some external
support, right, whether it'sthrough a therapist or through a
coach, because the first step,like you said, is to become
consciously aware of self.
Right, really, take that focusoff of the other person and come
(30:36):
back to yourself.
What am I experiencing?
What am I experiencing?
What am I, what am Iparticipating in?
Because we do see, like a lotof unhealthy communication is
what leads to the ending ofrelationships, which leads to
you know distance and you knowfamily, people and and
difficulties in getting projectscompleted at work and and the
(30:56):
breakup of relationships,because we are not looking at
ourselves, we're looking atsomebody else.
And so the first step is havingthat space to be be consciously
aware of work.
That's not super easy to do, sohaving a third party that can
kind of reflect that to youtends to be the safest place,
because there really is no,there's no, harm in that right
(31:18):
and, yeah, there's a consequenceto being able to sit in that
space.
Even in couples therapy, youknow, I typically sit with them
individually for a little whileso that they can get conscious
in what they're actually sayingand feeling and then hearing
that their feelings are validand their experience experiences
(31:39):
led to that, but that it's nottheir partner's responsibility
to own that necessarily RightCause we're we're trying to get
some kind of, some kind ofdiscomfort fixed.
So I think you know you sayingcoming, you know, becoming so
much more conscious of yourselfis that first step, and that's
not always easy to do.
So that would be the best, besttime to go find Sarah.
(32:00):
She's a great place to be ableto, to use as a mirror, to hear
things for like what theyactually are within yourself, so
that you can come to to a moreconscious place with a partner
or a family member or aworkplace.
I always say, you know, whenyou want to start practicing
(32:21):
healthy communication, seek tounderstand.
You know, rather than coming toself and being like this is
what I want.
Seek to understand what'sactually happening within
yourself and potentially withinsomebody else.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, and communication is just a form of
connection seeking.
Like that's literally what itfeels like, because you know
you're trying to get somethingheard, as you said in the very
beginning of our podcast.
Like you know, something istrying to be fixed or heard and
you're trying to find connectionwith the other person when
you're communicating.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
And communication is a non-negotiable to connection
and healthy communication is theonly path we can take to begin
that process right.
Otherwise we're going to staydisconnected.
It's, it's not safe, becausethose very organic needs of
being seen, heard and lovedcan't be met if there's
(33:16):
invalidation, right, right, well, anything else you'd like to
kind of share with our listenersor our viewers, what else can
you kind of add as littletidbits for healthy
communication?
Or validation or invalidation?
Speaker 2 (33:30):
I think just giving ourselves grace throughout the
process, like it's verydifficult to you know, like
listening to this podcast Okay,now I know all about validation,
so I'm going to apply it in mydaily life Like it's very
difficult to actually implementwhat we learn.
So, giving ourselves grace,reminding ourselves that, hey,
like it's okay if I'm not ableto validate myself right away,
(33:51):
it's okay if I'm not able toimmediately become this healthy
communication guru just becauseI, you know, heard these skills
one time.
I think it's like a continuousprocess.
And also maintaining ourself-respect throughout the
entire conversation.
Sometimes, if we're feelinginvalidated, feeling attached,
we may not even have enoughconfidence or self-respect to be
(34:11):
able to share because we'vebeen invalidated, and also not
feeling bad about wanting tochange things in your
communication.
There's nothing wrong withwanting a difference or a change
.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Yeah, I love that you said that.
And as an inner child, you knowrooted therapist, you know
having that grace to understandthat these communication
patterns really were instilled along time ago.
You know like we learned thesepatterns at a time that we were
not fully conscious and so havegrace with yourself as you're
trying to learn new ways ofbeing authentic, being in
(34:48):
connection and knowing thatcommunication is the root of
being able to get that, and Ilove that you said.
You know that you know holdingspace for your own self-respect.
You know a lot of times whenwe're part of unhealthy
communication, that can lead tocodependency, that can lead to,
you know, people pleasing andthat you don't.
You know just to stay inconnection, which is not really
(35:10):
connection.
We don't have to get our ownlevels of needs to be able to
get that.
So I love that.
That was, you know, alsohighlighted too, that this isn't
about, you know, shamingyourself and changing everything
about yourself.
It's about understanding tounderstand understand yourself
as well.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Right and understanding what you value in
a relationship.
That would be like great, greatself inquiry there, like what
are my values and what is beingdisrespected here, when I'm
being invalidated?
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Which is a yeah, a great segue too, when you can't
have healthy communication in arelationship, how it's okay to
set boundaries and makedifferent decisions.
So I think that's a great topicfor another podcast.
We have like a series withSarah now.
Series with Sarah.
I like it.
Well, thank you so much forcoming on and I have to just
(36:03):
tell you all, like Sarah is sucha bright light in in our
practice and is is absolutelywonderful with family systems
and such.
So if you're looking to work onhealthy communication or just
understanding yourself more froma from a rooted place of your
own patterns of communicationsor family systems, please feel
(36:24):
free to reach out.
Her link will be down in thebio where you can learn more
about her and how you cancontact us for further services.
But thank you so much, sara,for coming on and so excited for
your next couple of months ofcelebration and change.
We can't wait to see all thefun things coming from your
space.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Thank you so much for having me on and definitely
will be practicing my validationas I go into these wedding
festivities.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
I'll have plenty of people to be interacting with,
I'm sure.
So all right.
Thank you, listeners, forcoming and joining us.
If you're watching this, thankyou for being a part of it, to
support us.
We ask that you, please, please, please, go down, give us a
five-star review, leave acomment and we can continue to
be providing this contact forfree.
(37:13):
Thanks again, everyone.
We'll see you next time, bye,bye.
Hello and welcome to In Still we Rise.
I'm your host, christine Seidel, and today we have a therapist
with us, sara Kassam.
How are you?
I'm doing great.
How are you?
I'm doing well?
Thank you so much for joiningus.
I am just going to read alittle bit about the work that
Sara does and then we're goingto start our topic for today.
(00:26):
So let's talk about Sarah.
Sarah is a therapist at RiseTherapy Center.
She enjoys using an empathicand tailored therapeutic
approach when working withclients, as she believes there
is no one-size-fits-all solutionto care.
Sara often uses cognitivebehavioral therapy and
(00:47):
dialectical behavioral therapyand operates from a family
systems theory andperson-centered approach when
providing services.
When working alongside children, sara aims to use creative and
playful approaches.
Sara strives to meet you whereyou are in your healing journey.
Welcome Sarah.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Thank you, I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and fun little side note your last
name is about to change, socongratulations.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Thank you.
It's going to be a big processtrying to get the name change
thing started.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
And probably odd to like start hearing it on a
regular basis.
You know, as a woman, it's kindof like oh wait, my name is
different, so congratulations,and we can't wait to celebrate
that new journey for you.
So well, today, talking aboutrelationships, talking about
(01:46):
therapeutic work, we're going totalk about healthy
communication, which sounds kindof like just a you know
everyday type of thing, but astherapists, we really realize
how very little healthycommunication actually goes on
in relationships.
So tell us a little bit of howwould you define healthy
(02:07):
communication and why is it apart of, like any foundational
relationship, whether it'sfamily, romantic, friendship,
work, whatever.
What is healthy communicationand why is it so important?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
It's so hard to define, I feel like, but I think
the main thing that I look forin communication, in any of my
relationships and also as atherapist, is like are you able
to be open and are you able tobe honest and also being
comfortable enough to bevulnerable too?
So I think with communicationsometimes things can get
misinterpreted if we don't havethe part of us being open, us
(02:47):
being willing to be vulnerablewith someone else and, of course
, that vulnerability andopenness doesn't come if there's
no underlying trust.
But that's like thefoundational portion of
communication.
There's got to be some level oftrust so that you can build up
the openness, vulnerability andhonesty.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, so that you can build up the openness,
vulnerability and honesty.
Yeah, and I think, ultimately,I mean communication is our
means to some external end.
Right, like communicationstarts if it's like we need to
inform or we need to solve or weneed to declare something, yeah
, right, so communication, if wedidn't need communication, we
(03:27):
would just be, you know, kind of, even even if it's nonverbal,
we still be doing the same thing, right, and a lot of unhealthy
nonverbal communication thatgoes on in our body language too
.
So, you know, community healthycommunication is really needed
because we, ultimately, we havesome end goal with it, which
(03:49):
would be why unhealthycommunication is so disruptive
to our process, I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Definitely, and I think it's difficult sometimes
because it's not like we're insometimes we're not
intentionally trying tocommunicate in a way that's
unhealthy, it's just the waythat we've learned, you know,
learned behavior.
And then it also is importantfor us to take that signs of our
social signaling, like what arewe portraying, what are our
nonverbal cues, what are ourverbal cues?
I think it's really difficultto tell.
(04:18):
Sometimes too, with differentrelationships, like in romantic
relationships.
I'm more likely to speak in adifferent way with my fiance
than I do with like my client,as opposed to like my parents.
So it's very nuanced too inthat sense.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
It really is and I think that you know, within all
of those different relationships, they're really trying to seek,
you know, like I said earlier,some end goal.
So when that's not happening,that's typically when people are
like, huh, something might beoff.
And I, you know, we, we workwith people every day and so
many people come in and they'relike I'm literally the best
(04:55):
communicator, like when I docouples work, they'll be like I
am.
One of them will be like I'msuch a great communicator, I
constantly talk about myfeelings, and there are other
partners like absolutely not.
What are some common sides?
That communication in arelationship has become
unhealthy or they're in apattern of unhealthy
(05:16):
communication?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, I think the main thing that I look out for
is, like are you able tovalidate and is the person
feeling validated after yourconversation?
And I think that's where thingsget a little bit tricky too,
because we oftentimes, when wehear the word validation, we
automatically tie that in withagreement and approval, and
that's the part where I the onething that I want people to take
(05:40):
away is that validation doesnot mean agreement.
It just means that you'rehearing the other person and
being willing to validate theemotion that they're feeling.
It's possible to validate thatthey're feeling upset, angry,
hurt, but you don't have tovalidate the action of them
yelling at you or screaming atyou or insulting you.
I think that's the main thingthat I look out for Like how do
I feel after this conversationwith this person?
(06:01):
Do I feel validated and whatcan I do differently?
Speaker 1 (06:06):
in my conversations, yeah, and I oftentimes like, I
think what we end up seeing islike that end result, right,
like the end result of theirpattern, you know.
So they're coming in becausethey actually are staying in the
same conversation over and overand over.
It's a pattern of that's apattern of unhealthy
(06:27):
communication where you actuallycan't get to any resolution,
whether the person feels seenand heard, or whether there's an
agreement that has been able totake place, or whether repair
has has, you know, been beendone.
You know, that's where wereally see these patterns of
unhealthy communications, whenthey're literally having the
(06:48):
same conversation over and overagain, and that's typically
because validation hasn'toccurred at any level.
So tell us more about what doesvalidation mean in the context
of healthy communication?
We know it's needed, but whatdoes validation really mean in a
healthy communication, healthyrelationship?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, I think the first part of validation is just
the basics, like making eyecontact with the person while
they're talking to you.
I'm actively listening to themnodding along while they're
talking, and it doesn't have tobe like a dramatic, like oh yeah
, you know, it's just subtle,like body language, like eye
contact, making sure we'relistening to them, showing them
(07:32):
that we're interested in whatthey're saying and then
empathizing.
I think listening to them,showing them that we're
interested in what they'resaying and then empathizing, I
think so, like we've heard whatthey said, and then we repeat it
back to them like hey, thatmakes sense to me as to why you
would feel that way.
I would also feel that way if Iwas in this situation and then
giving feedback like you must befeeling hurt, you must be
feeling whatever, and then askthem is that correct?
Did I interpret that correctly?
(07:53):
I think that's the way that Ilike to you know, bundle up my
validation like start withunderstanding where you're
coming from, listening to whatthey're having to say and then
seeing, like my understandingyou correctly, like it's okay to
ask, like, is this correct?
Because, again, we're nottrying to guess how they're
feeling or also not wanting toput words in their mouth either.
So it's kind of having tonavigate that little balance
(08:14):
there.
And I think one thing that I'veseen a lot also is whenever we
have couples and they'redisagreeing, they always, you
know, they want to portray theirperspective by saying no, I'm
sorry, but actually I see itthis way.
Now see, that's not necessarilyvalidation.
Instead, I would say somethinglike I hear you and I see it
this way, as opposed to sayingI'm sorry, but because then the
(08:35):
but just negates everything youjust said.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah, it's interesting in like
communication how, when somebodythat we're in a relationship
with, regardless of what therelationship type is, when they
come to communicate us, it'slike we're already from, you
know, for an unhealthy patternof communication.
We're already trying to figureout how to fix or confront
whatever information they'recoming at us with.
(09:01):
So let's say, a wife comes homeand she's, you know, just
totally flustered because oftraffic, and this person, like,
cut her off and gave her themiddle finger, and you know
she's all flustered.
And she comes home and thehusband's like, well, you know,
maybe next time, you know, don'tdo this.
And already the communicationhas been cut off because
ultimately, that's not asituation that needs anything to
(09:26):
be fixed, it doesn't needanything to be overcome, it just
needs to be expressed Right.
And we don't realize in so manyways how unavailable we become
in communication when we've beenin unhealthy patterns that
we're not even really hearingwhat it is that the person is is
(09:46):
actually expressing, you know.
And so I think it's soimportant when we notice these
patterns of, of, of, and it'salmost like a visceral feeling
within the body.
It's like we almost contract alittle bit when we, yeah, like
you get defensive like.
And then, all of a sudden, youknow something that just needed
to be validated in terms of likeoh my gosh, I can't believe
(10:08):
somebody cut you off and themiddle finger, what is wrong
with you, you know?
And then we're like, yeah,that's right.
And then our, if our partnercontinues, then we're like, yeah
, that's right.
And then, if our partnercontinues, then we're kind of
like, yeah, I mean, actually itwasn't that bad and we can move
through it so much more becausewe actually no longer have to
hold on to that feeling of theinjustice of being cut off in
traffic.
Right?
So with validation, how do weactually really support
(10:34):
ourselves in validation?
Because I love that.
You said validation is notabout agreeing with somebody,
it's about being present withsomebody.
So how does that actuallysupport us too?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, in a way, like by validating others, we're also
making sure we're, you know,looking inwards, validating
ourselves.
So I think something that I seea lot with some of my high
performing clients is like theyfeel like, you know, they should
already know how to do this,they should already be doing
this, and then they are not ableto have empathy for themselves
because they're like, well, thisis something that I should
(11:09):
already have known myself.
They're not able to validatethe emotion that they're having,
the feeling that, oh, like,maybe, like I'm feeling a little
scared, I'm feeling a littlenervous.
I think validation can applyinwards, too.
You can work on validating theemotions you have.
You don't have to validate thefact that you, you know, did
something that was hurtful tosomeone.
You can validate that you werehurt, so maybe that's why you
hurt them.
(11:29):
I think that's a stuck pointthat I see a lot too like about
the action.
Like sometimes, if someonemakes a, they really get hard on
themselves or they want to likerectify that.
And again, we don't have tovalidate the fact that you made
the mistake, just validate thefact that you know, you feel a
certain way about it and ithappened.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Well, and I think that you know what you're kind
of speaking to is that you know,when we practice validation,
we're actually coming to a placeof acceptance too, right?
So two things can coexist youcan have that experience and I
cannot agree with it, right, butthat doesn't mean that conflict
(12:08):
has to occur.
It means you can have thatexperience and I can attend to
it, and I can still hold myperspective and move through it.
And it's almost like you'recoming to a point of acceptance
of, like I choose therelationship over choosing the
need to be right or the need tofix, Like I'm choosing the
(12:29):
relationship over my sense of ofrightness, I guess, in whatever
way, that, yeah, and that's sodifficult to do because, you
know, in that heat of the moment, you're like I just want you
know, I just want to convey mypoint.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
It doesn't matter how I convey it, it's like I just
want to convey it and that'ssomething that I always see like
with.
Well, I often see not always Ioften see Pretty regularly
though.
Yeah, I often see with couplestoo, like but the example you
gave about the wife coming homeall she wanted was someone to
validate that she was feelingthat certain way and not jump
(13:04):
into problem solving.
And I think that's a great wayfor us to even build
communication, like when thewife shares says hey, what do
you need from me right now?
Do you want to just vent?
Do you want me to give youfeedback?
Do you want me to help youproblem solve?
Like, tell me how I can supportyou.
And I think that's a goodconversation starter too, to
help get the communicationflowing.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Yeah, and I think that like that validation can
can even be from a playful stateright, like that example of the
wife, you know coming home andand the injustice of somebody
flipping her off and you knowgetting, you know getting stuck
in traffic and your partnerbeing kind of your cheerleader.
You know that's a form ofvalidating.
It was like how dare somebodycut off my sweet baby?
(13:43):
You know she's got to get homeand like we have like wine ready
and you know like there's aplayful state in that too, of
being like ah, I don't, I hatethat for you too, you know, and
it helps us move through thingswhere we're able to, even as a
person that's venting, is ableto come back to presence and be
(14:05):
like oh my gosh, you're right,it actually it was a middle
finger and that's about somebodybeing completely unhinged right
now and I don't need to carrythat with me.
So also, you know, when we feelvalidation in a conversation,
it's not only that we come backto a place of like connection
with somebody else, is that weconnect to ourselves and we're
(14:27):
kind of like wait a minute, mebeing upset about this is really
not authentic to who I am.
So I'm gonna like move throughsomething that is really
actually not something I care tocare to carry along with me.
So I think it really does endup kind of diffusing a lot of
unhealthy communication dynamicsthat don't serve the
(14:48):
relationship and don't serve us,right, you know?
And it's so important.
Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
No, you go ahead.
No, I would say it's soimportant for us to be attuned
to that too, like, especiallywith our partner, like knowing,
like what is it that you knowvibes well with them, like, is
this going to help them rightnow?
Is me jumping into the problemsolving mode going to fix how
they're feeling?
And I think the fixing part isour.
A lot of things just get alittle comfortable because you
know you don't like seeing yourpartner in distress.
(15:14):
We want to fix them.
You don't like seeing yourfriend in distress, but fixing
it and jumping in to do that isnot always the solution.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Yeah, and oftentimes that's a sign of, like our own
discomfort that they're feelingthat way.
So that brings me to the nextquestion, because this all
sounds great and wonderful, butI know that both of us work with
high conflict families.
You know, we do somethingcalled reunification therapy at
our, at our work, where, youknow, conflict has been the
(15:45):
basically the foundation ofthese relationships, right?
So validation is something thatwe really need to be achieved
in order to start workingthrough to some type of
healthier dynamic.
But when we start talking topeople about this, they really,
because there's been so muchconflict, they're like I don't
even know how to get what do youmean validated?
(16:05):
That's not what I said.
So how can you actuallypractice validation without
necessarily agreeing orendorsing somebody else's
experience somebody else's youknow experience, so to speak?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
That's.
You know that's a really goodquestion, because I think
something that I often revertback to is the and.
So, like I think sometimes,when we put in the but saying,
okay, you feel that way, but Ifeel this way, so that's why my
opinion is more valid than yours.
I think adding in the and liketwo like you said dialectics,
two things that are opposing,can still be true.
(16:44):
You can still feel this wayabout my child, and I can still
disagree with the fact that youfeel this way, and realizing
that that's not that doesn'tmean that there's conflict.
That just means that you don'tagree on the same thing, and it
doesn't necessarily need to turninto a big, prolonged fight.
And again, it's easier said thandone, right, but I think the
(17:04):
easiest way that I found it tobe beneficial is just replacing
the but to the and and, evenpracticing validating ourselves.
I think it starts within us,and then we can move our way out
too, and just being radicallygenuine, like we're not going to
be.
It's not a power struggle, itdoesn't have to.
You don't have to one up theother person.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that's that's key is that
you know, especially in any typeof relationship, even within
ourselves, we really do have twoexperiences, you know.
So within ourselves we have theconscious and the unconscious
experience of something right,and within a relationship we
have two or more experiences andvalidation within, let's just
(17:45):
say, there is a fight and, ofcourse, healthy communication.
You know, if we go into a lotof the semantics of it, you know
we start going into unhealthydynamics when we start saying
you did this right.
But even when we say, hey, Ifeel disrespected when this,
that or the other occurred andthe other person is like, yes,
(18:06):
but all of a sudden we're shutdown.
Right, and so we can.
You know, part of this isaccepting that somebody can
experience something and that isvalid, like they're feeling
around.
That experience is valid andour intention could have never
been to be disrespectful and wecan validate that feeling.
(18:26):
We say, hey, I'm so sorry thatwhat you know, when I said that
it came across disrespectful,and know that that was never my
intention.
I was really trying tocommunicate this, that or the
other.
So all of a sudden now we havea feeling that an experience
that brought about a feelingthat's valid and an expression
(18:52):
of intention, right, andoftentimes those two things do
not.
They don't equate to each other.
Yeah, so we, we want somebodywho's experienced to match our
intention, and that doesn'talways happen.
You know, this isn't, this isn'tmath, right?
We have all the dynamics andthe same thing happens within us
(19:13):
, right, consciously, I, I mightexperience something and
unconsciously I have a storyplaying out being like I'm so
stupid, blah, blah, blah, likenever good enough.
My conscious part has to say,hey, I know that that made you
feel that way and that has neverbeen the truth, right?
(19:33):
So, yes, that feeling comesfrom somewhere and I space for,
for a different narrative, youknow.
So that validation.
You know, if we get even toostuck in trying to fix within
ourselves or trying to defendwithin ourselves, we end up not
getting a full processing ofthat experience or of that
(19:55):
emotion.
So, so how would you supportsomebody who's really, really
struggling to start the processof validation, especially, let's
say, in a relationship wherethey they do tend to find
themselves in a little bit ofhigher defensiveness?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
I think for that, like I just identifying, like
within yourself hey, whatemotion am I feeling right now
and what is its purpose?
What is this emotion trying totell me?
So let's say, for example, Ijust came home from a long day
of work.
I come home, the dishes are notdone, the house is a mess.
I had asked my husband to dothis one thing and he didn't do
(20:36):
it.
So, in my head, what emotion amI already starting to feel?
Irritation, anger.
What is this irritation andanger telling me?
It's telling me that I amuncomfortable by something that
happened.
It's telling me that somethingwas misconveyed in my
communication with my husband.
That's when, once you'veanalyzed what emotion you're
having, then I would really say,like you know, how can I
confront this in a way thatdoesn't come across as if I'm
(20:59):
attacking him?
And that's when the I feelstatements come in.
Right.
I felt this emotion when I sawall of this.
I don't want to assume that youdidn't do it because you're
trying to neglect me, or youbecause you're intentionally
trying not to listen to what Ihave to say, but this is how I
felt about it and I want toconvey to you that this is what
was going on in my head.
(21:19):
So, coming from that approach,instead of immediately going
into, well, you should have donethis.
You're not listening to me.
You did this on purpose.
You never listened to anythingI have to say, and then it is
spirals.
So I think that would be likethe easiest way to like not
immediately go into attack mode.
But now I just realized youasked about defensiveness.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
So I mean, actually that was a really good
recommendation.
It's like huh, yeah, maybedon't start from.
Oh, I see I came.
Actually it's funny because Iactually came home the other day
hangry.
Like I was hangry, I had words,there was soccer, all this
stuff, and I saw that like thehouse was a mess, there was no
stuff, and I saw that like thehouse was a mess, there was no
dinner, and I was like I wasalready in that state.
(22:01):
You know, and you know,sometimes, even as therapists,
like people think we have, youknow, we've, we've mastered all,
mastered all these skills, butwe still have to be and I think
this is the key coming to aconscious place as to what is my
emotion and how can Icommunicate this, from a place
of staying in connection withmyself and with somebody else
(22:22):
and understanding that thatemotion doesn't it doesn't mean
that that was the intention ofsomebody you know.
So I think, yes, the the firststep to learning to validate is
to become very conscious of youremotions.
From somebody else'scommunication, whether it's
verbal or nonverbal dishes,everywhere, that's a nonverbal
(22:42):
communication of I'm, I'm notrespected, right, and then we
come from that emotional place,you know.
So, really, that first step isabout kind of consciously seeing
what, what is the feeling I'mhaving and how do I need to
address it.
And using those I statements isso important because it's not
(23:02):
coming from a projected place,it's coming from a more embodied
place.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Yeah, and that way you can distance yourself from
the stories you're tellingyourself about the emotion too.
Like, if I'm having thisemotion, the story I'm telling
myself is that my husbanddoesn't respect me.
So how can I come from this,from like?
How can I bring awareness andconsciousness to this part so
that I do not go into an attack?
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah, and I think a lot of the conversations we've
kind of had is about being youknow how to respond when we have
a reaction to something.
But I think the more you becomenuanced and validation, you
also can come at it from aproactive standpoint, right?
So in your scenario of cominghome and the house is a mess,
kind of like I should have donelast week which I didn't, you
(23:46):
know, love the accountability,exactly Right, like I need to
hold myself accountable, um isseeing, you know, seeing
something needing to address it,because it did feel like
disrespect, going to that personand saying, hey, it looks like
you've had probably a reallybusy day and you know you've had
(24:07):
a lot of tasks to address.
So I wanted to just make sure.
You know, was there a plan forthe kitchen, or was there a plan
for this, that and the other,or do we need to find a
different solution, right?
So you know that also goes intoa whole other slew of things
(24:28):
like expectations versusagreements, and you know I'm
sure we'll have to have you backon for more healthy
communication skills.
But so validation, you knowit's a tough thing for people to
grapple with and oftentimesthey go into more invalidating
statements.
So can you give me an exampleof like okay, we've talked about
validation, how to practice it,how to say it, that it's not
necessarily agreeing, but whatdoes invalidating statements
(24:50):
look like and what are some ofthem?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Yeah, and I feel like invalidation is something that
can occur based on yourenvironment, and it can also
occur without even like us.
Intentionally wanting toinvalidate can be things like oh
, like you should not be crying,that's not something to cry
about, there's no need to becrying.
That gives us the message that,oh, maybe there's something
wrong with me, maybe I shouldnot be crying.
(25:14):
What's wrong with me that I amcrying.
Or a statement like oh, shouldnot be crying.
Like what, what's wrong with methat I am crying?
Or a statement like oh, I had asimilar situation like that.
Again, there's it's okay toempathize, but then when it
becomes more of like oh, I had asituation like that too, when I
experienced this, and this isyou know, I completely know what
you're going through and thenmaking it about them.
So the biggest, biggest onethat I've seen, at least when
(25:37):
working with high conflictfamilies, is you know the you
shouldn't feel that way.
I don't understand why you feelthat way.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
You're too sensitive, or I've experienced this too,
and I was just fine, so I don'tknow why you're not fine point
of like their intention theythey are probably thinking their
intention is to help fix it, orlike let me tell you how I did
(26:04):
this, or let me you know.
Like let me tell you, this isn'tsomething sad to be to be
crying about.
That's probably their intention, unfortunately.
What's that's actually about isthem and their discomfort, and
they're not wanting to to feeldysregulated, or they want to be
(26:24):
seen and heard in theirexperience.
Right, so that is, those areall like such invalidating
statements that probably comefrom a place of like I want to
fix this, I don't want them tofeel this way, or I want them to
know they're not alone, but itactually pulls back that space
where we can really attune andattend to somebody that we care
(26:45):
about and and something you know, a phrase that I hear a lot
about and and I think peoplebelieve it comes from a genuine
place or a validating place, butit's actually very invalidating
is I'm sorry you feel that way.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
You know, I just feel like an apology yeah, no, it
doesn't and invalidation.
You know, sometimes that needsto lead to a repair, right.
But when we say I'm sorry youfeel that way, what we're really
saying is I'm sorry, that'syours and I can't be.
(27:25):
I have no part of it.
Yeah, I have no part of that.
Yeah, and that's a veryinvalidating and very shutting
down statement.
But yet people will often feellike, well, look, I apologize
that you were feeling that way,but it has no ownership.
And that happens a lot,especially in parent-child
relationships or in romanticrelationships, where we're so
(27:47):
uncomfortable that our partneris feeling a certain way,
probably because of somethingthat we've participated in that
we know we need to have someaccountability, but we can't
hold full accountability.
So we say I'm sorry that youfeel that way.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Because then it goes back onto the other person.
We don't have to identify theemotions we're feeling and the
uncomfort we're feeling, becauseit just goes right back.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah.
So let's say somebody who'slistening to this or watching
this.
They're seeing eitherthemselves which we tend to not
see that unless they come totherapy themselves in a very
unhealthy pattern ofcommunication or maybe a very
unhealthy pattern ofcommunication or they're
(28:32):
receiving, you know, a lot ofinvalidating statements.
Most likely both parties areparticipating in it.
But what would you say would bethe next steps to really start
harnessing the power of healthycommunication?
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Yeah, so are you saying like if they are the
receiver of the invalidation?
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Or vice versa.
You know what would be thefirst steps to take.
You know if you're recognizingyou're in a cycle of unhealthy
communication with someone orpeople in general.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Definitely, I would definitely try my best to like
address it in a way that's againso reflecting back, having the
conscious awareness of whatemotions are coming up for me
and laying down what the factsare like here.
The fact is that this person Ihave observed this person say
this to me in this specificquote.
I have observed the feelingthat came up for me when they
said this, and now I want to beable to talk to this person
(29:36):
about it Because, again, it alsodepends on whether, like how
important this relationship isto you.
This is someone that is veryimportant, close to you, and you
have a desire to repair therelationship.
I would definitely encouragethat person to you know, let's
go up to this person you know,granted that it is a safe person
and they're not in danger inany way by interacting with them
, but just going up and saying,hey, I felt this emotion when I
(29:58):
heard you say this to me.
I want to clarify what was yourintention with this and I mean,
if there's something that I'mmissing, what can I do to
improve our communication?
That's just how I typicallyapproach that.
I know it can be different withdifferent case-by-case basis.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Which I think is a great way to kind of encourage
people, if they're seeing apattern, to seek some external
support, right, whether it'sthrough a therapist or through a
coach, because the first step,like you said, is to become
consciously aware of self.
Right, really, take that focusoff of the other person and come
(30:36):
back to yourself.
What am I experiencing?
What am I experiencing?
What am I, what am Iparticipating in?
Because we do see, like a lotof unhealthy communication is
what leads to the ending ofrelationships, which leads to
you know distance and you knowfamily, people and and
difficulties in getting projectscompleted at work and and the
(30:56):
breakup of relationships,because we are not looking at
ourselves, we're looking atsomebody else.
And so the first step is havingthat space to be be consciously
aware of work.
That's not super easy to do, sohaving a third party that can
kind of reflect that to youtends to be the safest place,
because there really is no,there's no, harm in that right
(31:18):
and, yeah, there's a consequenceto being able to sit in that
space.
Even in couples therapy, youknow, I typically sit with them
individually for a little whileso that they can get conscious
in what they're actually sayingand feeling and then hearing
that their feelings are validand their experience experiences
(31:39):
led to that, but that it's nottheir partner's responsibility
to own that necessarily RightCause we're we're trying to get
some kind of, some kind ofdiscomfort fixed.
So I think you know you sayingcoming, you know, becoming so
much more conscious of yourselfis that first step, and that's
not always easy to do.
So that would be the best, besttime to go find Sarah.
(32:00):
She's a great place to be ableto, to use as a mirror, to hear
things for like what theyactually are within yourself, so
that you can come to to a moreconscious place with a partner
or a family member or aworkplace.
I always say, you know, whenyou want to start practicing
(32:21):
healthy communication, seek tounderstand.
You know, rather than coming toself and being like this is
what I want.
Seek to understand what'sactually happening within
yourself and potentially withinsomebody else.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, and communication is just a form of
connection seeking.
Like that's literally what itfeels like, because you know
you're trying to get somethingheard, as you said in the very
beginning of our podcast.
Like you know, something istrying to be fixed or heard and
you're trying to find connectionwith the other person when
you're communicating.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
And communication is a non-negotiable to connection
and healthy communication is theonly path we can take to begin
that process right.
Otherwise we're going to staydisconnected.
It's, it's not safe, becausethose very organic needs of
being seen, heard and lovedcan't be met if there's
(33:16):
invalidation, right, right, well, anything else you'd like to
kind of share with our listenersor our viewers, what else can
you kind of add as littletidbits for healthy
communication?
Or validation or invalidation?
Speaker 2 (33:30):
I think just giving ourselves grace throughout the
process, like it's verydifficult to you know, like
listening to this podcast Okay,now I know all about validation,
so I'm going to apply it in mydaily life Like it's very
difficult to actually implementwhat we learn.
So, giving ourselves grace,reminding ourselves that, hey,
like it's okay if I'm not ableto validate myself right away,
(33:51):
it's okay if I'm not able toimmediately become this healthy
communication guru just becauseI, you know, heard these skills
one time.
I think it's like a continuousprocess.
And also maintaining ourself-respect throughout the
entire conversation.
Sometimes, if we're feelinginvalidated, feeling attached,
we may not even have enoughconfidence or self-respect to be
(34:11):
able to share because we'vebeen invalidated, and also not
feeling bad about wanting tochange things in your
communication.
There's nothing wrong withwanting a difference or a change
.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Yeah, I love that you said that.
And as an inner child, you knowrooted therapist, you know
having that grace to understandthat these communication
patterns really were instilled along time ago.
You know like we learned thesepatterns at a time that we were
not fully conscious and so havegrace with yourself as you're
trying to learn new ways ofbeing authentic, being in
(34:48):
connection and knowing thatcommunication is the root of
being able to get that, and Ilove that you said.
You know that you know holdingspace for your own self-respect.
You know a lot of times whenwe're part of unhealthy
communication, that can lead tocodependency, that can lead to,
you know, people pleasing andthat you don't.
You know just to stay inconnection, which is not really
(35:10):
connection.
We don't have to get our ownlevels of needs to be able to
get that.
So I love that.
That was, you know, alsohighlighted too, that this isn't
about, you know, shamingyourself and changing everything
about yourself.
It's about understanding tounderstand understand yourself
as well.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Right and understanding what you value in
a relationship.
That would be like great, greatself inquiry there, like what
are my values and what is beingdisrespected here, when I'm
being invalidated?
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Which is a yeah, a great segue too, when you can't
have healthy communication in arelationship, how it's okay to
set boundaries and makedifferent decisions.
So I think that's a great topicfor another podcast.
We have like a series withSarah now.
Series with Sarah.
I like it.
Well, thank you so much forcoming on and I have to just
(36:03):
tell you all, like Sarah is sucha bright light in in our
practice and is is absolutelywonderful with family systems
and such.
So if you're looking to work onhealthy communication or just
understanding yourself more froma from a rooted place of your
own patterns of communicationsor family systems, please feel
(36:24):
free to reach out.
Her link will be down in thebio where you can learn more
about her and how you cancontact us for further services.
But thank you so much, sara,for coming on and so excited for
your next couple of months ofcelebration and change.
We can't wait to see all thefun things coming from your
space.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Thank you so much for having me on and definitely
will be practicing my validationas I go into these wedding
festivities.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
I'll have plenty of people to be interacting with,
I'm sure.
So all right.
Thank you, listeners, forcoming and joining us.
If you're watching this, thankyou for being a part of it, to
support us.
We ask that you, please, please, please, go down, give us a
five-star review, leave acomment and we can continue to
be providing this contact forfree.
(37:13):
Thanks again, everyone.
We'll see you next time, bye,bye.
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