April 13, 2025 • 33 mins
What happens when your entire sense of self becomes tied to what you achieve rather than who you are? And Still We Rise invites therapist, Madison Reed, to explore the hidden dangers of performance-based identity – a phenomenon affecting people of all ages and backgrounds, not just high-achievers.
Madison reveals how this identity crisis manifests when we derive our worth primarily from external validation, achievements, and roles rather than intrinsic qualities. Whether it's through academic success, career advancement, or even family roles, performance-based identity creates a fragile foundation that can collapse when we inevitably face setbacks.
This episode examines how the achievement mindset often begins in childhood through well-intentioned praise focused on achievements rather than character, then amplified through society's expectations and social media's highlight reels. Madison shares insights from her clinical work, noting approximately 75% of her clients struggle with some form of this issue, from "gifted kid burnout" to full-blown midlife crises.
We explore practical strategies for rediscovering authentic identity, including grounding techniques, finding "comfort people" who see beyond your achievements, and reconnecting with core values through meaningful self-reflection and exploration. Madison emphasizes that overcoming performance-based identity isn't about abandoning ambition, but rather finding purpose aligned with your authentic self.
The most powerful revelation? What most people truly desire isn't achievement itself, but the feelings of peace, love, and freedom they believe achievement will bring. By focusing directly on these core needs through authenticity rather than performance, we can create lives that feel meaningful regardless of external metrics of success.
Enjoy this episode and check out Madison at
https://www.risetherapycenter.com/madison
If you would like to work with Madison, email us at
info@risetherapycenter.com
Thank you for tuning into And Still WE Rise! If you would like to learn more about me or the work our practice is doing, feel free to follow us on Instagram at:
@atltherapygirl and @risetherapycenter
Or check us out at www.risetherapycenter.com
Disclaimer: And Still We Rise is meant to provide perspective and meaningful conversations around mental health topics. It is not meant to provide specific therapeutic advise to individuals. If anything in these podcasts resonates, ASWR recommends consulting with your individual therapist or seeking a referral from your primary care physician.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cristine Seidell (00:00):
Welcome to, and Still we Rise.
I'm your host, christine Seidel, and today we have therapist
Madison Reed joining us.
Hello, madison, hi, how's itgoing?
It's great.
Thank you for joining us.
Today, madison is going to betalking about performance-based
identity, which is such animportant topic, I think you
know in terms of.
I know we hear that a lot oftimes for kids that are in
(00:21):
school, but it's interesting howI think that's popping up in
terms of.
I know we hear that a lot oftimes for kids that are in
school, but it's interesting howI think that's popping up in a
lot of adults today that haven'treally addressed some of those
issues from the past.
That's still kind of creepingin.
So super excited to get intothat topic with you and before
we get started, I would love toread a bio about you, if that's
(00:41):
okay.
Absolutely Awesome.
Madison Reed is a therapist withRise Therapy Center that is
passionate about helping peoplenavigate anxiety, build
emotional resilience anddiscover who they are beyond the
roles they play.
In her work, she guidesindividuals through the process
of shedding expectations,whether from family, society or
(01:03):
themselves, to build an identitythat feels authentic and
grounded.
I love that Madison believesovercoming anxiety and creating
resiliency isn't aboutperfection or performance, but
learning to trust yourself andface uncomfortable moments with
curiosity, building thetolerance needed to grow through
life's challenges.
Amazing bio and full disclaimer.
(01:27):
I get to brag a little bit thatI got to be a part of Madison's
learning experience andemerging into the beautiful
therapist that she is today, aswe've been able to work
alongside each other for thelast couple of years.
So I'm super excited to havethis talk with you and share it
with our listeners years.
So I'm super excited to havethis talk with you and share it
(01:47):
with our listeners.
So, with that being said, likelet's get in it All right, let's
do it All right.
So tell, tell us and tell thelisteners a little bit about
what is performance-basedidentity, what does that mean
and how does it kind of affectsomebody's sense of self?
Madison Reed (02:00):
Yeah, it's a bit of a phenomenon.
I think I'm seeing a lot rightnow.
I would say probably 75% of myclients have some version of
this and it's all ages, it's notjust kids, which I think it's
often kind of attached to andkind of how I describe it is who
you are is what you do, not thecharacteristics that make up
(02:24):
that sense of self.
So, I think you find this a lotin different things, like school
or your job or sports, but Ieven think go to more of a
societal aspect of what it meansto be a woman and to be a
sister or to be a daughter, orto be even a version of a friend
in a specific type of group,and it's overall just this
(02:47):
performing a sense of selfrather than leading with more of
that integrity and that moremoral compass and some of those
like personality traits.
Cristine Seidell (02:58):
Which I mean, if you put it into that scope, I
mean even the identities thatwe hold within the structure of
a family, you know, like sisteror daughter, like how much of
that is influenced throughperformance.
You know we can honestly say,okay, yeah, like, maybe in
school and maybe in work, likewe're super like focused on our
identity being attributed toperformance, but those
(03:20):
identities that we feel are soorganic to who we are are how
much of that identity is rootedin performance and achievement
and what, what we're actuallydoing versus who we really are.
So that is the scope of.
I think something that wehaven't really talked much about
is is the spectrum ofperformance identity through all
(03:40):
of the different titles andlabels that we carry so
interesting.
So how did this kind of come up, so to speak?
It's like, what did you startnoticing?
Madison Reed (03:50):
I think right, one of my favorite interventions is
the values card sort, and I dothat often with different people
, just as a good introductory oflike tell me who you are,
beyond like some of these basicfacts.
And it's an activity that a lotof people really struggle with.
They can put a value of like Ivalue art, right, but when I ask
(04:13):
why it's like, oh well, becauseI paint or it's just something
I enjoy, right, but like, why?
Like?
Why does that light you up?
And just a bit of a detachmentbetween, like even these values
and these things that aresupposed to be these guiders in
life, but not a real motivatorbehind it.
(04:34):
And I think, as I like kind ofstarted to notice that I also
randomly get a bunch of veryschool avoidant teens and a lot
of very burnout college kids.
And I think, as I started tounpack, that it was because they
had put so much pressure onthis thing.
And as soon as life got alittle hard and school or just
(04:57):
life in general got harder tomaintain, because the
expectations grew or even justthe challenges got harder, it
was instead of this idea of okay, well, that stinks, I got this
F or I'm struggling to adaptLike let me try again, let me do
better.
It was I'm the worst, I'm notenough, who am I, where do I go
from here?
And it created this bit ofburnout aspect where like kind
(05:22):
of turned into a bit ofdepression too, where it's like
I can't get out of bed becausewhat am I?
What do I do now that I don'thave this thing?
That has been my sense of selffor this whole time.
Cristine Seidell (05:35):
Yeah, I love that you say you know if they,
you know, fail a test orsomething, rather than being
able to look at it and say, okay, there's learning for me to
evolve in or there's a placewhere I can grow in my learning,
there's material I still needto understand and absorb it was
I'm a failure.
And I think we see that likethere's this, you know, extreme
(05:58):
thinking of like I'm the best orI'm a failure, and so I think
that that lens of like when youget feedback that it's not the
best, that it's just anopportunity to learn.
But I think so many of ourclients still have that very
extreme thinking.
And I love the values cardstore.
I think you actually broughtthat in supervision a couple of
(06:22):
years ago and it was kind of newto me and I love using that
with clients too, specificallybecause you can also see like
when they get a value and it'salmost like they feel like they
should value this, like it's aprojection from their families
or their or their peers orwhatever.
Like I should value this, butlike actually kind of don't.
(06:44):
But you see kind of thatgrappling with it because of
that.
I guess maybe what you saiddetachment of like their own
sense of agency when it comes tovalues and how they show up
with integrity within that.
So tell me, how does like, howdoes society, or like, of course
(07:05):
, as we all know, like socialmedia, all the things that are
in front of us constantly, youknow how does that influence?
Like the shaping of aperformance based identity?
Madison Reed (07:28):
So a lot of performance-based identities, I
think, come a lot from childhoodand it comes naturally.
It's not even at fault ofparents most of the time, but
the tangible things to praise akid on are the things that they
do.
The first really like yay is aword or walking, and then it
kind of just gets worse fromthere.
It's you do sports and you havea whole team cheering you on
and you get all of this kind ofpositive feedback and that is
(07:51):
rewarding.
So that's where that investmentkind of comes from.
Rather than complimentingsomething like oh, you're so
creative, it's like wow, thatpicture is awesome.
Cristine Seidell (08:01):
Yeah, like it's kind of a characteristic of
what you embody.
It's more of like what is theresult of what you did?
Madison Reed (08:08):
Yeah, and I think social media kind of continues
that trend.
It's all about posting what youare doing, right?
If I go on this awesome hike,I'm going to post it and rather
than somebody seeing like, oh,she loves nature and being
outdoors, and be like, oh mygosh, she did a seven mile hike,
like that's crazy, and it justcontinues on, as well as kind of
(08:32):
broadening your scope of whatyou should be doing when that
isn't grounded in even thatperson's sense of self, it's
fakeness.
But now my expectations, myperformance, my role is shifting
and changing over to somethingthat is not even a real thing
that brought that person to thatplace right.
Cristine Seidell (09:05):
So, again, like, social media is the
highlights of our life, so tospeak.
Here's my seven mile hike.
But like I didn't start with aseven mile hike, I started with
struggling with a mile right,and I think that is kind of, you
know, something we have to bereally intentional about as
people who you know receivecontent and also people who put
out content.
It's not just about the doingor the ultimate achievement,
(09:28):
it's about the process and thejourney.
And you know that, that, that,that, that, that, that, that,
that, that, that, that, that,that, that, that, that brings up
a lot of stuff like, rooted inchildhood too.
You know, if you're always kindof rewarded for whatever the
end result is, how do you learnabout yourself through that
process and through that journey?
And I was thinking about parents.
Even, like, sometimes parentsaren't really conscientious of
(09:50):
how they're posting theirchildren and their achievements.
You know that they really don'thave agency.
You know, at seven, eight yearsold, to want their like
accomplishments posted out insocial media.
So as they get to an age wherethey are on social media and
they go back and look andthey're like, oh, look at all
the things that were postedabout me were about the things I
(10:10):
was doing and not like you knowthat I was being weird in the
ocean because I, you know I'm akid and like that's just part of
being a.
I was being weird in the oceanbecause I, you know I'm a kid
and like that's just part ofbeing being a kid is being weird
, and so I think even sometimes,without even just receiving
that projection, we can get intoolder ages and look back and be
like, oh wow, like I was reallycelebrated on the things that I
(10:31):
was accomplishing andperforming, but not necessarily
how I was being.
So, you know, that's somethingI think parents can be
conscientious of too.
Around you know how, how theyare kind of priming their child
without them really having theagency to be able to, to have a
say so in that.
Madison Reed (10:51):
So tell me like.
Cristine Seidell (10:52):
So you know, not that we want to go from one
end of the spectrum to the other, but let's so.
How do we like?
How do we develop a sense oflike, confidence and motivation
and drive to do things withoutgetting rooted in this like
performance based identity?
Madison Reed (11:10):
Yeah, I think if that is something that you are
struggling with a good kind ofway to deconstruct, it is always
kind of that.
First step is being more awareof what that thought process is,
and I think, forperformance-based identity
specifically, you'll see that incriticism, right.
So if at your job it's likethis note from your boss, are
(11:30):
you overthinking, are you takingit home and you're like, oh,
what could I have donedifferently, what should I've
done?
But like, and kind of reallygetting stuck in that place and
with a kind of negative note toit, that's probably because,
right, that sense of self iskind of being tarnished a little
bit.
So once you kind of startnoticing those, it's just got to
add a little bit of weight tothe other side of the scale,
(11:53):
because what happens is, if welet these thoughts kind of just
keep going, that sense of selfnot only is not allowing itself
to kind of come to light, butit's also like, oh, okay, well,
that's okay.
Like I'll just stay down here,don't mind me.
So just adding a little bit ofthat confrontation to it where
it's like well, okay, like Iknow we're freaking out about
(12:14):
this right now, but this is partof it.
Like I'm growing, I'm learningand that's okay and this has
nothing to do with me just tofight it, as well as give that
sense of self a bit of thatempowerment and being like, okay
, yeah, like we're being seen,we're being noticed.
Now I can feel more comfortable, maybe coming out in a
different way.
So I think that's kind of likethe biggest thing to deconstruct
(12:38):
.
But I think, if you're someonethat maybe doesn't have this big
sense of performance-basedidentity but are worried about
going there, the power of why issuch a great tool and I think
people talk about itspecifically with feelings like
okay, why am I feeling anger orsad?
But I think it can be anything.
It's why am I choosing a yellowswimsuit over a blue swimsuit?
(13:00):
Asking yourself those questions, it's like, well, this reminds
me of sunshine and you canattach it to a memory, or just
be like well, I just never getoutside, and this is my one way
to do that.
It's though you are leadingwith your sense of self.
It's just not being noticed,and the moment that we start
noticing it, the morecomfortability is going to be
there.
And that doesn't have to be inthese like big, tangible, like
(13:24):
deep ways.
It can just be in small thingsof like dinner or while you're
listening to a song, or justchecking in with that sense of
self, can empower it enough thatthat performance-based identity
isn't going to win.
Cristine Seidell (13:37):
Yeah, well, and I think that kind of goes to
like how you, how you work withclients in general, like
finding that that lens ofauthenticity, right, like who we
authentically are, is notrooted in our performance.
You know, our authenticity doesmake things occur in this world
.
It does, you know, bring aboutchange and brings beauty, and it
(13:59):
brings, you know, ourauthenticity does make things
occur in this world.
It does, you know, bring aboutchange and brings beauty, and it
brings, you know, new ideas.
Like that's part ofauthentically what we're here to
do, but it's, it's inherentlygood, it's inherently going to
produce goodness.
So, but if you know what thatauthenticity is, when it's
rooted in those characteristics,like you said, like what is it
(14:21):
about this that lights me up andmakes me me?
You know, oh, it's because Ilove nature.
You know, I love beautiful,bright colors.
Like I'm a cheerful person.
Like coming up with thosecharacteristics that are
authentic to you but don't bringabout performance, right, like
(14:42):
I'm a cheerful person, so I havea large group of friends, right
, like some people would be like, oh, you know, she has so many
friends.
That's in some ways kind ofsaying like achievement, I've
achieved this, versus I have alot of friends because I'm a
cheerful.
Cheerful person that's justauthentic to who I am.
So I think rooting into whatare those authentic
(15:03):
characteristics is so much ofpart of asking yourself that why
question?
Madison Reed (15:08):
you know, yeah, and I think something that you
just brought up reminded me toowhere it's.
If I am only looking for apacer of if I'm doing well is if
I'm doing good at my job, if Iwrite all of these things that
we've kind of talked about, italso kind of stops you from
being able to really recognizewhat your vices are, because
right as long as I've got a goodpaying job and I got this house
(15:30):
that I want and the family thatI want, I'm good right.
Not recognizing, like, what isleading you to that thing, or to
lie, or to have dark thoughtsor to whatever those things are.
And if you're not leading withthat authenticity, you're not
even going to get to see theflip side, to be able to grow
and develop and heal from thosedifferent things.
Cristine Seidell (15:49):
Yeah, and I think that that brings up the
point that you were kind ofsaying, like if you're you know,
if you're not conscious of whatyou're actually feeling in that
drive for performance, you'regoing to be somewhat detached
from yourself.
Until you're not right, like italways, the nervous system will
call you back.
It'll be, like how aboutburnout this this?
Madison Reed (16:10):
year.
That would be fun.
Cristine Seidell (16:12):
If you're not going to be conscious, then
we'll just do burnout.
But I think if you're, if Ithink, if you're going in that
mindset and then you know, alittle disruptor has you
ruminating around thatdisruption, that's a pretty good
indicator that you're reallyfocusing your identity on how
(16:34):
others are perceiving yourachievements or your performance
versus.
Is this authentic to who I am?
You know what about like supportsystems?
Like how can you know I know wework with a lot of families and
stuff and I know you work witha lot of teens and people rooted
in anxiety how can like supportsystems, even you know, in
(16:57):
adulthood, how can they helpnavigate somebody who's kind of
trying to work through theirperformance based identity?
Madison Reed (17:04):
Yeah, I think specifically I'm thinking more
of like friend groups, so Ithink you can do this in a
family as well.
Finding your comfort person issuper helpful because,
essentially right, if you'rerecovering from this and you
have one person that really youfeel comfortable knowing truly
who you are, there's going to bea bit of feeling like, okay, I
(17:26):
have this person, they'vereceived me.
Well, I can now test theseother relationships as well as
almost being anchored back tothat sense of self, right.
So if you're at like a bigfriend gathering and you're
noticing you're very detachedand you're being super
optimistic and bubbly and that'snot really who you are, going
back to that comfort person andjust having that second to just
(17:48):
be can help reel that back inand also be a good way to have a
comparison, to even recognizethat that's something that
you're doing, and I think infamilies it gets a little bit
harder because they are a bithabitual and I think what we
expect of you, that's what we'llsay yeah, but At the end of the
(18:09):
day, though, they probably havealso seen your truest form,
right, because that's going tobe when you were a kid and you
didn't have the world tellingyou all these things that you
should be, and I think sometimesthat can be an empowering thing
too to know like this.
They've seen this already.
I have just now covered thisall down.
Let me see how I canreincorporate this and know that
(18:33):
it's not a new thing for themand in a way, they've already
accepted it because they'vealready experienced it.
And I think that's whereboundaries and all those sorts
of things can come into, ofputting their expectations in
check of who they're expectingyou to be when that is not you.
Cristine Seidell (18:50):
Well, and I think that's such a good point
where you're saying, like findyour comfort person, right,
because that performance basedidentity, like you said,
oftentimes goes back tochildhood.
So, like the people you wouldassume like would be your
comfort people may notnecessarily be your comfort
people.
They may be, they may be partof that conditioning and so
(19:11):
finding that person that youknow can see you with
authenticity outside ofperformance, but to see those
characteristics that are sointrinsically like who you are
and can speak that to you,having that as like a home base,
that when I see myself kind ofgoing in that direction, this
person is very intentional andthat might be a therapist, like
sometimes that's the only placethat we have.
(19:33):
That that, that comfort andthat safety of often
authenticity.
But being rooted in, like Iknow that this person speaks
truth to me from a place ofauthenticity and not of my value
, is inherent to performance.
Sometimes that's not in ourfamily systems, like you said,
they can be a little habitual, Ithink, for families, you know,
(19:55):
because like that's such anorganic place for us to get
identity If you're not aperformance-based identity
person or trying to project thatonto somebody but you're really
conscious of not wanting thatto be something for your
children or for your, for yourother family members like, be so
conscious about speaking that,that those true characteristics
(20:18):
into people, right Versus whatit is they're achieving or what
they're performing, so on, oneither side of that relationship
.
You know, for people, forlisteners who are like you know,
I really don't struggle withthat, like that's a good
reminder.
I'm like, okay, if you don'tstruggle with that, how can you
be a supporter of the peoplethat you love and care about by
seeing their authenticity andbeing a speaker of that
(20:41):
authenticity when they'restruggling or you see them
moving in that direction, sowell so so tell me a little bit
about, like, how does thispresent itself when it's kind of
gotten a little bit out ofcontrol?
Right Cause you mentionedburnout.
I know I've I've worked withclients who who genuinely,
especially at young ages, thatwe wouldn't really think would
(21:04):
be.
You know, getting this burnedout, like not being able to
navigate life in the same way.
So tell me how this can whenit's left unchecked or without a
support system, how can thisaffect somebody negatively?
Madison Reed (21:17):
Yeah, I think there's honestly a lot of like
hot ticket words that I arereally this as well, where I
think people talk about likegifted kid burnout is a part of
this right and we kind of justtalked about burnout.
But I think also midlife crisisis a part of this as well, where
it's like I just completed halfmy life and I have no idea what
is underneath all of thesethings.
It's a bit of this like I'vehit this wall and now I don't
(21:39):
have a sense of self and I'm nolonger getting that purpose from
my career.
And I think with that it comeswith a lot of anxiety, because I
like to define anxiety.
I don't know what thedefinition is, because I don't
think it's that good.
So my definition is right yeah,chronically feeling out of
(22:00):
control, but your brain's way offinding that sense of control,
even if it's not real.
So if you are putting yoursense of self into all of these
things that are not you, that isnot in your control, right.
If you, the test is super hard,or if you know they are
(22:21):
minimizing your department orjust somebody has wrong
expectations, that is not inyour control.
But you're putting so muchweight in that your brain is
going to try to overcompensatefor that and that's where you
get a lot of overthinking andthat negative self-talk trying
to keep you at this like lowexpectation and just this
(22:43):
overall sense of uneasiness, oflike somebody is going to find
me out that I'm not actually asgood at this or some of that,
like imposter syndrome things.
And really it goes even deeper,I think, than anxiety sometimes,
where you lose that sense ofself-trust where, at the end of
the day, you're probably good atyour job because there's a
piece of you that is good atthat.
(23:05):
I'm a good therapist because Iam empathetic, right, and I get
identity from my job.
But that is not who I am.
But if I were to just be like,oh, I'm just a good therapist
because, well, this is what I'vechose and this is just who I am
, that that piece is going awayand that ability to like, I
trust myself to do the thing isgone, because I've I've told it
(23:27):
for so long that that's not whathas led me to this point.
Cristine Seidell (23:33):
So yeah, so what I'm hearing there is, like
you know, if you're doingsomething without a sense of
purpose and purpose is reallyrooted authenticity, it's rooted
in identity and values that aretruly aligned with us If we are
not doing things with thatsense of purpose and
(23:55):
understanding and kind of likemaybe buy-in, subconsciously,
like I'm buying into thisbecause it genuinely kind of
lights me up and it feels soauthentic and it's a place where
I can serve, that detachment isgoing to occur.
And if that detachment occursfor too long, you're brought to
a place of anxiety ordysregulation, like the two.
(24:17):
If your mind and body are notin sync, it, you know, it will
eventually present itself to youphysiologically through anxiety
, through dysregulation,avoidance, like a way of just
not being able to kind ofcontinue.
And I think that's a greatpoint, especially with, like
midlife, like transitions, likecoming to a point where it's
(24:37):
like I've done this job or I'vedone this, or I've been a mom or
I've been a parent, or I'vebeen, and now that is changing,
or now my, I just lost my job,or you know, I'm not getting you
know the awards I used to getthat awareness of like I can't
do this anymore and we, you know, we see it in a lot of teens
(25:00):
that are taking these very, veryaccelerated courses that
they're really developmentallynot ready for.
Was that something that theyfelt purpose to do or was that
something they felt pressured todo?
They felt purpose to do or wasthat something they felt
pressured to do?
So I think you know that pointthat you're making is like doing
(25:21):
things and being in this worldwith more of a sense of purpose
versus what you're getting onthe other side of that.
When you talked about you beinga therapist, you don't go
around saying, well, I see Xnumber of clients and here's all
their data of who's made, who'smade.
You know progress andachievements and you're like,
I'm a good therapist because Istep into a place of service
that I feel so purposed for.
(25:42):
I see these patterns that I can, that I can speak to and help,
and there's that's rooted inpurpose, that's not rooted in
achievement, you know.
So I think that's a really goodpoint from even when you know
we're working with littles, forparents to be able to say, here
are these really coolcharacteristics I see in you you
(26:03):
know.
So, as they start makingdecisions for themselves what
sport they want to play, orextracurricular or whatever they
get to know that they get to dothat because they feel skilled
and purposed and, you know,excited when they step into that
.
Yeah, absolutely.
So how does somebody if, like,a listener is listening to this
(26:24):
and they're like, okay, I've gota real issue with some
performance-based identity?
I, you know, have done a lot oftherapy.
I don't know where to startfrom here, but I'm really,
really dysregulated.
I know you work with a lot ofanxiety.
You get a lot of clients whoare coming in being like I'm
aware of a lot of things, butI'm just completely, my body's
(26:47):
just in an anxious state.
How would they get started withtrying to correct this in a way
that's going to have lastingchange?
Madison Reed (26:56):
Yeah, I think that you can always kind of
implement some of thosegrounding techniques because,
again, if your brain and yourbody are not communicating, it's
going to be really hard for youto have any sort of awareness
in order to be able to change,right.
So I think coming up with agame plan that works for you and
(27:19):
everyone's kind of got to testtheir own things there is
unfortunately not a one sizefits all but right, it is 5, 4,
3, 2, 1, where I go through allmy senses and I find the things
in the room or I have a specificplaylist that feels like me,
that I put on afterwards, right,and I have that auditory kind
of grounding.
It's a comfort blanket or aplushie you slept with as a kid
(27:40):
or like whatever those funthings are that are something
with my body that's connected tomy sense of self.
That kind of combines a littlebit of those grounding
techniques and what we're tryingto do, which is reconnect with
who you are and act accordingly.
So those are kind of like mykind of go-to.
But from there, right, it'sunfortunately not an easy thing
(28:01):
because at the end of the day,you probably have gone 15, 20,
30, 50 years with this habit andjust like any habit, it's going
to take some time and it'sthrough awareness and then doing
the grounding things and beingeasy on yourself.
When maybe you just slip backinto that performance-based
identity, that's okay, right,and that's where the comfort
(28:22):
people come into is at the endof the day, like that person
should be your reward.
A little bit of this personsees me and I like my
relationship and you probablyfeel more connected.
That is going to help youcontinue and get some momentum,
because the rest of your lifecan have that same sort of color
and feeling to it as well.
Cristine Seidell (28:41):
Yeah, or the same color and feeling of being
in that cycle of you know, ofperforming, you know.
So what, all of thosestrategies that you just
explained about grounding andit's all of that was just being,
it wasn't doing.
That's a really goodrecommendation.
(29:01):
Is, like you know, and it's sointeresting and you probably see
this too Like when people cometo therapy they're like what do
I do?
What do I do?
What do I do?
And oftentimes the answer islike you be, you know, you do
the things that bring you backto a place of calm, to a place
of familiarity, like a stuffyfrom childhood, or like come to
(29:25):
a place of just being versusdoing, because you can't hear,
you can't hear yourself if yourbrain is just playing in
rumination, and that's whatoften, that's what's happening,
even though we're not aware ofit, in high levels of anxiety.
So, you know, going back tothat bio of yours, authenticity
and groundedness, like that'swhere all the answers occur.
(29:47):
And I love that you said thatevery situation is so different,
because as a therapist, youcan't even hear that until they
get to a place of grounding,because they can't hear it, you
know, they're really the onesthat can access it.
So, finding you know thosepractices that get you back into
a place of being, having thatcomfort person who can be a
(30:07):
place of reflection for them.
So it's like this reminder ofwhat the body already knows but
can't hear because the brain istelling its chatter that doesn't
matter, so to speak.
And you know, I think, startingwith a like a therapist like
yourself, where they really doknow how to be present with you
(30:27):
in that place, do those types ofinterventions like the value
sort sort card, so they can seesometimes they can't access it
when they're they're firstcoming to therapy because
they're trying to fix it butthey can't actually be with
themselves, with their valuesand and hear that authenticity
again.
So I think that, like you, justkind of giving the scope of
(30:48):
like pause, don't do anythingright now, come to a place of
being, and that that's that's atough threshold for a lot of
people to cross, because I think, even as a culture, we're so
conditioned to do yeah,absolutely, so well, is there
anything else you'd like to addabout performance-based anxiety?
(31:11):
Or you know anything that thethat you feel like would be a
good resource for listeners?
Madison Reed (31:17):
Um, I, I guess my maybe just like a word of
encouragement of, like, theworld is really loud and there's
a lot of expectations and a lotof people telling you that
you've got to work harder and doand do and do and do, but right
, telling you that you've got towork harder and do and do and
do and do, but right.
I think it's important to kindof take a step back and figure
out it's not even a sense ofself, but just what do you want
(31:41):
out of life and how do you getthere?
And chances are, those thingsare not going to just be.
I want to be a billionaire, soI'm going to work super hard,
right, it's going to be.
I want to feel loved and I wantto just be happy, and those are
going to be kind of yourguiders for why you should be
doing some of this work and howto kind of pull it back to find
(32:04):
really what, what that path isto get those things.
Um, so, yeah, everyone could doit.
Cristine Seidell (32:10):
I think I think that's you.
You hit the nail on the head.
It's like I think I thinkthat's you.
Hit the nail on the head islike.
I think sometimes we feel likewhat will make me happy is when
I go and I do these things and Iget these accomplishments.
But when people get there, oneof the first things they tend to
say is I want to feel peace, Iwant to feel love, I want to
feel free All of whichperformance based anxiety
doesn't provide you Right.
(32:31):
It kind of feels like it keepsyou trapped.
So I think you know yourrecommendation of really coming
back to know who you are willguide you in the right direction
, and being able to be groundedis really one of the first steps
to doing that.
And I have to say, whenever Italk to Madison, she has just a
soothing voice.
I don't know what it is, butit's the tone or it's the
(32:51):
cadence or whatever it is.
I always feel so relaxed byyour voice and sometimes that in
and of itself is something thatwe need to be like wow, let me
just be in this conversation orlet me be in this space with
somebody.
So if anybody would like towork with Madison, I'm going to
put a link to her bio and waysthat you can work with her.
And she is amazing with anxiety, as you probably can hear in
(33:15):
this conversation.
Whether you're watching us andseeing us or just hearing our
voices, she definitely has avery calming, grounded presence,
so she's a pleasure to workalongside with, but I can
guarantee you she's a pleasureto work with as well.
So, madison, anything elseyou'd like to offer to our
friends or I?
Madison Reed (33:33):
don't think so.
Thank you for having me andthank you everyone for listening
and it was a lot of fun.
Cristine Seidell (33:38):
Yes, thank you for joining us.
Like I said, I'm going to put alink to your bio and ways that
they can contact our practice sothey can work with you.
Madison Reed (33:46):
Sounds good.
Cristine Seidell (33:47):
All right, thanks everybody for listening.
Welcome to, and Still we Rise.
I'm your host, christine Seidel, and today we have therapist
Madison Reed joining us.
Hello, madison, hi, how's itgoing?
It's great.
Thank you for joining us.
Today, madison is going to betalking about performance-based
identity, which is such animportant topic, I think you
know in terms of.
I know we hear that a lot oftimes for kids that are in
(00:21):
school, but it's interesting howI think that's popping up in
terms of.
I know we hear that a lot oftimes for kids that are in
school, but it's interesting howI think that's popping up in a
lot of adults today that haven'treally addressed some of those
issues from the past.
That's still kind of creepingin.
So super excited to get intothat topic with you and before
we get started, I would love toread a bio about you, if that's
(00:41):
okay.
Absolutely Awesome.
Madison Reed is a therapist withRise Therapy Center that is
passionate about helping peoplenavigate anxiety, build
emotional resilience anddiscover who they are beyond the
roles they play.
In her work, she guidesindividuals through the process
of shedding expectations,whether from family, society or
(01:03):
themselves, to build an identitythat feels authentic and
grounded.
I love that Madison believesovercoming anxiety and creating
resiliency isn't aboutperfection or performance, but
learning to trust yourself andface uncomfortable moments with
curiosity, building thetolerance needed to grow through
life's challenges.
Amazing bio and full disclaimer.
(01:27):
I get to brag a little bit thatI got to be a part of Madison's
learning experience andemerging into the beautiful
therapist that she is today, aswe've been able to work
alongside each other for thelast couple of years.
So I'm super excited to havethis talk with you and share it
with our listeners years.
So I'm super excited to havethis talk with you and share it
(01:47):
with our listeners.
So, with that being said, likelet's get in it All right, let's
do it All right.
So tell, tell us and tell thelisteners a little bit about
what is performance-basedidentity, what does that mean
and how does it kind of affectsomebody's sense of self?
Madison Reed (02:00):
Yeah, it's a bit of a phenomenon.
I think I'm seeing a lot rightnow.
I would say probably 75% of myclients have some version of
this and it's all ages, it's notjust kids, which I think it's
often kind of attached to andkind of how I describe it is who
you are is what you do, not thecharacteristics that make up
(02:24):
that sense of self.
So, I think you find this a lotin different things, like school
or your job or sports, but Ieven think go to more of a
societal aspect of what it meansto be a woman and to be a
sister or to be a daughter, orto be even a version of a friend
in a specific type of group,and it's overall just this
(02:47):
performing a sense of selfrather than leading with more of
that integrity and that moremoral compass and some of those
like personality traits.
Cristine Seidell (02:58):
Which I mean, if you put it into that scope, I
mean even the identities thatwe hold within the structure of
a family, you know, like sisteror daughter, like how much of
that is influenced throughperformance.
You know we can honestly say,okay, yeah, like, maybe in
school and maybe in work, likewe're super like focused on our
identity being attributed toperformance, but those
(03:20):
identities that we feel are soorganic to who we are are how
much of that identity is rootedin performance and achievement
and what, what we're actuallydoing versus who we really are.
So that is the scope of.
I think something that wehaven't really talked much about
is is the spectrum ofperformance identity through all
(03:40):
of the different titles andlabels that we carry so
interesting.
So how did this kind of come up, so to speak?
It's like, what did you startnoticing?
Madison Reed (03:50):
I think right, one of my favorite interventions is
the values card sort, and I dothat often with different people
, just as a good introductory oflike tell me who you are,
beyond like some of these basicfacts.
And it's an activity that a lotof people really struggle with.
They can put a value of like Ivalue art, right, but when I ask
(04:13):
why it's like, oh well, becauseI paint or it's just something
I enjoy, right, but like, why?
Like?
Why does that light you up?
And just a bit of a detachmentbetween, like even these values
and these things that aresupposed to be these guiders in
life, but not a real motivatorbehind it.
(04:34):
And I think, as I like kind ofstarted to notice that I also
randomly get a bunch of veryschool avoidant teens and a lot
of very burnout college kids.
And I think, as I started tounpack, that it was because they
had put so much pressure onthis thing.
And as soon as life got alittle hard and school or just
(04:57):
life in general got harder tomaintain, because the
expectations grew or even justthe challenges got harder, it
was instead of this idea of okay, well, that stinks, I got this
F or I'm struggling to adaptLike let me try again, let me do
better.
It was I'm the worst, I'm notenough, who am I, where do I go
from here?
And it created this bit ofburnout aspect where like kind
(05:22):
of turned into a bit ofdepression too, where it's like
I can't get out of bed becausewhat am I?
What do I do now that I don'thave this thing?
That has been my sense of selffor this whole time.
Cristine Seidell (05:35):
Yeah, I love that you say you know if they,
you know, fail a test orsomething, rather than being
able to look at it and say, okay, there's learning for me to
evolve in or there's a placewhere I can grow in my learning,
there's material I still needto understand and absorb it was
I'm a failure.
And I think we see that likethere's this, you know, extreme
(05:58):
thinking of like I'm the best orI'm a failure, and so I think
that that lens of like when youget feedback that it's not the
best, that it's just anopportunity to learn.
But I think so many of ourclients still have that very
extreme thinking.
And I love the values cardstore.
I think you actually broughtthat in supervision a couple of
(06:22):
years ago and it was kind of newto me and I love using that
with clients too, specificallybecause you can also see like
when they get a value and it'salmost like they feel like they
should value this, like it's aprojection from their families
or their or their peers orwhatever.
Like I should value this, butlike actually kind of don't.
(06:44):
But you see kind of thatgrappling with it because of
that.
I guess maybe what you saiddetachment of like their own
sense of agency when it comes tovalues and how they show up
with integrity within that.
So tell me, how does like, howdoes society, or like, of course
(07:05):
, as we all know, like socialmedia, all the things that are
in front of us constantly, youknow how does that influence?
Like the shaping of aperformance based identity?
Madison Reed (07:28):
So a lot of performance-based identities, I
think, come a lot from childhoodand it comes naturally.
It's not even at fault ofparents most of the time, but
the tangible things to praise akid on are the things that they
do.
The first really like yay is aword or walking, and then it
kind of just gets worse fromthere.
It's you do sports and you havea whole team cheering you on
and you get all of this kind ofpositive feedback and that is
(07:51):
rewarding.
So that's where that investmentkind of comes from.
Rather than complimentingsomething like oh, you're so
creative, it's like wow, thatpicture is awesome.
Cristine Seidell (08:01):
Yeah, like it's kind of a characteristic of
what you embody.
It's more of like what is theresult of what you did?
Madison Reed (08:08):
Yeah, and I think social media kind of continues
that trend.
It's all about posting what youare doing, right?
If I go on this awesome hike,I'm going to post it and rather
than somebody seeing like, oh,she loves nature and being
outdoors, and be like, oh mygosh, she did a seven mile hike,
like that's crazy, and it justcontinues on, as well as kind of
(08:32):
broadening your scope of whatyou should be doing when that
isn't grounded in even thatperson's sense of self, it's
fakeness.
But now my expectations, myperformance, my role is shifting
and changing over to somethingthat is not even a real thing
that brought that person to thatplace right.
Cristine Seidell (09:05):
So, again, like, social media is the
highlights of our life, so tospeak.
Here's my seven mile hike.
But like I didn't start with aseven mile hike, I started with
struggling with a mile right,and I think that is kind of, you
know, something we have to bereally intentional about as
people who you know receivecontent and also people who put
out content.
It's not just about the doingor the ultimate achievement,
(09:28):
it's about the process and thejourney.
And you know that, that, that,that, that, that, that, that,
that, that, that, that, that,that, that, that, that brings up
a lot of stuff like, rooted inchildhood too.
You know, if you're always kindof rewarded for whatever the
end result is, how do you learnabout yourself through that
process and through that journey?
And I was thinking about parents.
Even, like, sometimes parentsaren't really conscientious of
(09:50):
how they're posting theirchildren and their achievements.
You know that they really don'thave agency.
You know, at seven, eight yearsold, to want their like
accomplishments posted out insocial media.
So as they get to an age wherethey are on social media and
they go back and look andthey're like, oh, look at all
the things that were postedabout me were about the things I
(10:10):
was doing and not like you knowthat I was being weird in the
ocean because I, you know I'm akid and like that's just part of
being a.
I was being weird in the oceanbecause I, you know I'm a kid
and like that's just part ofbeing being a kid is being weird
, and so I think even sometimes,without even just receiving
that projection, we can get intoolder ages and look back and be
like, oh wow, like I was reallycelebrated on the things that I
(10:31):
was accomplishing andperforming, but not necessarily
how I was being.
So, you know, that's somethingI think parents can be
conscientious of too.
Around you know how, how theyare kind of priming their child
without them really having theagency to be able to, to have a
say so in that.
Madison Reed (10:51):
So tell me like.
Cristine Seidell (10:52):
So you know, not that we want to go from one
end of the spectrum to the other, but let's so.
How do we like?
How do we develop a sense oflike, confidence and motivation
and drive to do things withoutgetting rooted in this like
performance based identity?
Madison Reed (11:10):
Yeah, I think if that is something that you are
struggling with a good kind ofway to deconstruct, it is always
kind of that.
First step is being more awareof what that thought process is,
and I think, forperformance-based identity
specifically, you'll see that incriticism, right.
So if at your job it's likethis note from your boss, are
(11:30):
you overthinking, are you takingit home and you're like, oh,
what could I have donedifferently, what should I've
done?
But like, and kind of reallygetting stuck in that place and
with a kind of negative note toit, that's probably because,
right, that sense of self iskind of being tarnished a little
bit.
So once you kind of startnoticing those, it's just got to
add a little bit of weight tothe other side of the scale,
(11:53):
because what happens is, if welet these thoughts kind of just
keep going, that sense of selfnot only is not allowing itself
to kind of come to light, butit's also like, oh, okay, well,
that's okay.
Like I'll just stay down here,don't mind me.
So just adding a little bit ofthat confrontation to it where
it's like well, okay, like Iknow we're freaking out about
(12:14):
this right now, but this is partof it.
Like I'm growing, I'm learningand that's okay and this has
nothing to do with me just tofight it, as well as give that
sense of self a bit of thatempowerment and being like, okay
, yeah, like we're being seen,we're being noticed.
Now I can feel more comfortable, maybe coming out in a
different way.
So I think that's kind of likethe biggest thing to deconstruct
(12:38):
.
But I think, if you're someonethat maybe doesn't have this big
sense of performance-basedidentity but are worried about
going there, the power of why issuch a great tool and I think
people talk about itspecifically with feelings like
okay, why am I feeling anger orsad?
But I think it can be anything.
It's why am I choosing a yellowswimsuit over a blue swimsuit?
(13:00):
Asking yourself those questions, it's like, well, this reminds
me of sunshine and you canattach it to a memory, or just
be like well, I just never getoutside, and this is my one way
to do that.
It's though you are leadingwith your sense of self.
It's just not being noticed,and the moment that we start
noticing it, the morecomfortability is going to be
there.
And that doesn't have to be inthese like big, tangible, like
(13:24):
deep ways.
It can just be in small thingsof like dinner or while you're
listening to a song, or justchecking in with that sense of
self, can empower it enough thatthat performance-based identity
isn't going to win.
Cristine Seidell (13:37):
Yeah, well, and I think that kind of goes to
like how you, how you work withclients in general, like
finding that that lens ofauthenticity, right, like who we
authentically are, is notrooted in our performance.
You know, our authenticity doesmake things occur in this world
.
It does, you know, bring aboutchange and brings beauty, and it
(13:59):
brings, you know, ourauthenticity does make things
occur in this world.
It does, you know, bring aboutchange and brings beauty, and it
brings, you know, new ideas.
Like that's part ofauthentically what we're here to
do, but it's, it's inherentlygood, it's inherently going to
produce goodness.
So, but if you know what thatauthenticity is, when it's
rooted in those characteristics,like you said, like what is it
(14:21):
about this that lights me up andmakes me me?
You know, oh, it's because Ilove nature.
You know, I love beautiful,bright colors.
Like I'm a cheerful person.
Like coming up with thosecharacteristics that are
authentic to you but don't bringabout performance, right, like
(14:42):
I'm a cheerful person, so I havea large group of friends, right
, like some people would be like, oh, you know, she has so many
friends.
That's in some ways kind ofsaying like achievement, I've
achieved this, versus I have alot of friends because I'm a
cheerful.
Cheerful person that's justauthentic to who I am.
So I think rooting into whatare those authentic
(15:03):
characteristics is so much ofpart of asking yourself that why
question?
Madison Reed (15:08):
you know, yeah, and I think something that you
just brought up reminded me toowhere it's.
If I am only looking for apacer of if I'm doing well is if
I'm doing good at my job, if Iwrite all of these things that
we've kind of talked about, italso kind of stops you from
being able to really recognizewhat your vices are, because
right as long as I've got a goodpaying job and I got this house
(15:30):
that I want and the family thatI want, I'm good right.
Not recognizing, like, what isleading you to that thing, or to
lie, or to have dark thoughtsor to whatever those things are.
And if you're not leading withthat authenticity, you're not
even going to get to see theflip side, to be able to grow
and develop and heal from thosedifferent things.
Cristine Seidell (15:49):
Yeah, and I think that that brings up the
point that you were kind ofsaying, like if you're you know,
if you're not conscious of whatyou're actually feeling in that
drive for performance, you'regoing to be somewhat detached
from yourself.
Until you're not right, like italways, the nervous system will
call you back.
It'll be, like how aboutburnout this this?
Madison Reed (16:10):
year.
That would be fun.
Cristine Seidell (16:12):
If you're not going to be conscious, then
we'll just do burnout.
But I think if you're, if Ithink, if you're going in that
mindset and then you know, alittle disruptor has you
ruminating around thatdisruption, that's a pretty good
indicator that you're reallyfocusing your identity on how
(16:34):
others are perceiving yourachievements or your performance
versus.
Is this authentic to who I am?
You know what about like supportsystems?
Like how can you know I know wework with a lot of families and
stuff and I know you work witha lot of teens and people rooted
in anxiety how can like supportsystems, even you know, in
(16:57):
adulthood, how can they helpnavigate somebody who's kind of
trying to work through theirperformance based identity?
Madison Reed (17:04):
Yeah, I think specifically I'm thinking more
of like friend groups, so Ithink you can do this in a
family as well.
Finding your comfort person issuper helpful because,
essentially right, if you'rerecovering from this and you
have one person that really youfeel comfortable knowing truly
who you are, there's going to bea bit of feeling like, okay, I
(17:26):
have this person, they'vereceived me.
Well, I can now test theseother relationships as well as
almost being anchored back tothat sense of self, right.
So if you're at like a bigfriend gathering and you're
noticing you're very detachedand you're being super
optimistic and bubbly and that'snot really who you are, going
back to that comfort person andjust having that second to just
(17:48):
be can help reel that back inand also be a good way to have a
comparison, to even recognizethat that's something that
you're doing, and I think infamilies it gets a little bit
harder because they are a bithabitual and I think what we
expect of you, that's what we'llsay yeah, but At the end of the
(18:09):
day, though, they probably havealso seen your truest form,
right, because that's going tobe when you were a kid and you
didn't have the world tellingyou all these things that you
should be, and I think sometimesthat can be an empowering thing
too to know like this.
They've seen this already.
I have just now covered thisall down.
Let me see how I canreincorporate this and know that
(18:33):
it's not a new thing for themand in a way, they've already
accepted it because they'vealready experienced it.
And I think that's whereboundaries and all those sorts
of things can come into, ofputting their expectations in
check of who they're expectingyou to be when that is not you.
Cristine Seidell (18:50):
Well, and I think that's such a good point
where you're saying, like findyour comfort person, right,
because that performance basedidentity, like you said,
oftentimes goes back tochildhood.
So, like the people you wouldassume like would be your
comfort people may notnecessarily be your comfort
people.
They may be, they may be partof that conditioning and so
(19:11):
finding that person that youknow can see you with
authenticity outside ofperformance, but to see those
characteristics that are sointrinsically like who you are
and can speak that to you,having that as like a home base,
that when I see myself kind ofgoing in that direction, this
person is very intentional andthat might be a therapist, like
sometimes that's the only placethat we have.
(19:33):
That that, that comfort andthat safety of often
authenticity.
But being rooted in, like Iknow that this person speaks
truth to me from a place ofauthenticity and not of my value
, is inherent to performance.
Sometimes that's not in ourfamily systems, like you said,
they can be a little habitual, Ithink, for families, you know,
(19:55):
because like that's such anorganic place for us to get
identity If you're not aperformance-based identity
person or trying to project thatonto somebody but you're really
conscious of not wanting thatto be something for your
children or for your, for yourother family members like, be so
conscious about speaking that,that those true characteristics
(20:18):
into people, right Versus whatit is they're achieving or what
they're performing, so on, oneither side of that relationship
.
You know, for people, forlisteners who are like you know,
I really don't struggle withthat, like that's a good
reminder.
I'm like, okay, if you don'tstruggle with that, how can you
be a supporter of the peoplethat you love and care about by
seeing their authenticity andbeing a speaker of that
(20:41):
authenticity when they'restruggling or you see them
moving in that direction, sowell so so tell me a little bit
about, like, how does thispresent itself when it's kind of
gotten a little bit out ofcontrol?
Right Cause you mentionedburnout.
I know I've I've worked withclients who who genuinely,
especially at young ages, thatwe wouldn't really think would
(21:04):
be.
You know, getting this burnedout, like not being able to
navigate life in the same way.
So tell me how this can whenit's left unchecked or without a
support system, how can thisaffect somebody negatively?
Madison Reed (21:17):
Yeah, I think there's honestly a lot of like
hot ticket words that I arereally this as well, where I
think people talk about likegifted kid burnout is a part of
this right and we kind of justtalked about burnout.
But I think also midlife crisisis a part of this as well, where
it's like I just completed halfmy life and I have no idea what
is underneath all of thesethings.
It's a bit of this like I'vehit this wall and now I don't
(21:39):
have a sense of self and I'm nolonger getting that purpose from
my career.
And I think with that it comeswith a lot of anxiety, because I
like to define anxiety.
I don't know what thedefinition is, because I don't
think it's that good.
So my definition is right yeah,chronically feeling out of
(22:00):
control, but your brain's way offinding that sense of control,
even if it's not real.
So if you are putting yoursense of self into all of these
things that are not you, that isnot in your control, right.
If you, the test is super hard,or if you know they are
(22:21):
minimizing your department orjust somebody has wrong
expectations, that is not inyour control.
But you're putting so muchweight in that your brain is
going to try to overcompensatefor that and that's where you
get a lot of overthinking andthat negative self-talk trying
to keep you at this like lowexpectation and just this
(22:43):
overall sense of uneasiness, oflike somebody is going to find
me out that I'm not actually asgood at this or some of that,
like imposter syndrome things.
And really it goes even deeper,I think, than anxiety sometimes,
where you lose that sense ofself-trust where, at the end of
the day, you're probably good atyour job because there's a
piece of you that is good atthat.
(23:05):
I'm a good therapist because Iam empathetic, right, and I get
identity from my job.
But that is not who I am.
But if I were to just be like,oh, I'm just a good therapist
because, well, this is what I'vechose and this is just who I am
, that that piece is going awayand that ability to like, I
trust myself to do the thing isgone, because I've I've told it
(23:27):
for so long that that's not whathas led me to this point.
Cristine Seidell (23:33):
So yeah, so what I'm hearing there is, like
you know, if you're doingsomething without a sense of
purpose and purpose is reallyrooted authenticity, it's rooted
in identity and values that aretruly aligned with us If we are
not doing things with thatsense of purpose and
(23:55):
understanding and kind of likemaybe buy-in, subconsciously,
like I'm buying into thisbecause it genuinely kind of
lights me up and it feels soauthentic and it's a place where
I can serve, that detachment isgoing to occur.
And if that detachment occursfor too long, you're brought to
a place of anxiety ordysregulation, like the two.
(24:17):
If your mind and body are notin sync, it, you know, it will
eventually present itself to youphysiologically through anxiety
, through dysregulation,avoidance, like a way of just
not being able to kind ofcontinue.
And I think that's a greatpoint, especially with, like
midlife, like transitions, likecoming to a point where it's
(24:37):
like I've done this job or I'vedone this, or I've been a mom or
I've been a parent, or I'vebeen, and now that is changing,
or now my, I just lost my job,or you know, I'm not getting you
know the awards I used to getthat awareness of like I can't
do this anymore and we, you know, we see it in a lot of teens
(25:00):
that are taking these very, veryaccelerated courses that
they're really developmentallynot ready for.
Was that something that theyfelt purpose to do or was that
something they felt pressured todo?
They felt purpose to do or wasthat something they felt
pressured to do?
So I think you know that pointthat you're making is like doing
(25:21):
things and being in this worldwith more of a sense of purpose
versus what you're getting onthe other side of that.
When you talked about you beinga therapist, you don't go
around saying, well, I see Xnumber of clients and here's all
their data of who's made, who'smade.
You know progress andachievements and you're like,
I'm a good therapist because Istep into a place of service
that I feel so purposed for.
(25:42):
I see these patterns that I can, that I can speak to and help,
and there's that's rooted inpurpose, that's not rooted in
achievement, you know.
So I think that's a really goodpoint from even when you know
we're working with littles, forparents to be able to say, here
are these really coolcharacteristics I see in you you
(26:03):
know.
So, as they start makingdecisions for themselves what
sport they want to play, orextracurricular or whatever they
get to know that they get to dothat because they feel skilled
and purposed and, you know,excited when they step into that
.
Yeah, absolutely.
So how does somebody if, like,a listener is listening to this
(26:24):
and they're like, okay, I've gota real issue with some
performance-based identity?
I, you know, have done a lot oftherapy.
I don't know where to startfrom here, but I'm really,
really dysregulated.
I know you work with a lot ofanxiety.
You get a lot of clients whoare coming in being like I'm
aware of a lot of things, butI'm just completely, my body's
(26:47):
just in an anxious state.
How would they get started withtrying to correct this in a way
that's going to have lastingchange?
Madison Reed (26:56):
Yeah, I think that you can always kind of
implement some of thosegrounding techniques because,
again, if your brain and yourbody are not communicating, it's
going to be really hard for youto have any sort of awareness
in order to be able to change,right.
So I think coming up with agame plan that works for you and
(27:19):
everyone's kind of got to testtheir own things there is
unfortunately not a one sizefits all but right, it is 5, 4,
3, 2, 1, where I go through allmy senses and I find the things
in the room or I have a specificplaylist that feels like me,
that I put on afterwards, right,and I have that auditory kind
of grounding.
It's a comfort blanket or aplushie you slept with as a kid
(27:40):
or like whatever those funthings are that are something
with my body that's connected tomy sense of self.
That kind of combines a littlebit of those grounding
techniques and what we're tryingto do, which is reconnect with
who you are and act accordingly.
So those are kind of like mykind of go-to.
But from there, right, it'sunfortunately not an easy thing
(28:01):
because at the end of the day,you probably have gone 15, 20,
30, 50 years with this habit andjust like any habit, it's going
to take some time and it'sthrough awareness and then doing
the grounding things and beingeasy on yourself.
When maybe you just slip backinto that performance-based
identity, that's okay, right,and that's where the comfort
(28:22):
people come into is at the endof the day, like that person
should be your reward.
A little bit of this personsees me and I like my
relationship and you probablyfeel more connected.
That is going to help youcontinue and get some momentum,
because the rest of your lifecan have that same sort of color
and feeling to it as well.
Cristine Seidell (28:41):
Yeah, or the same color and feeling of being
in that cycle of you know, ofperforming, you know.
So what, all of thosestrategies that you just
explained about grounding andit's all of that was just being,
it wasn't doing.
That's a really goodrecommendation.
(29:01):
Is, like you know, and it's sointeresting and you probably see
this too Like when people cometo therapy they're like what do
I do?
What do I do?
What do I do?
And oftentimes the answer islike you be, you know, you do
the things that bring you backto a place of calm, to a place
of familiarity, like a stuffyfrom childhood, or like come to
(29:25):
a place of just being versusdoing, because you can't hear,
you can't hear yourself if yourbrain is just playing in
rumination, and that's whatoften, that's what's happening,
even though we're not aware ofit, in high levels of anxiety.
So, you know, going back tothat bio of yours, authenticity
and groundedness, like that'swhere all the answers occur.
(29:47):
And I love that you said thatevery situation is so different,
because as a therapist, youcan't even hear that until they
get to a place of grounding,because they can't hear it, you
know, they're really the onesthat can access it.
So, finding you know thosepractices that get you back into
a place of being, having thatcomfort person who can be a
(30:07):
place of reflection for them.
So it's like this reminder ofwhat the body already knows but
can't hear because the brain istelling its chatter that doesn't
matter, so to speak.
And you know, I think, startingwith a like a therapist like
yourself, where they really doknow how to be present with you
(30:27):
in that place, do those types ofinterventions like the value
sort sort card, so they can seesometimes they can't access it
when they're they're firstcoming to therapy because
they're trying to fix it butthey can't actually be with
themselves, with their valuesand and hear that authenticity
again.
So I think that, like you, justkind of giving the scope of
(30:48):
like pause, don't do anythingright now, come to a place of
being, and that that's that's atough threshold for a lot of
people to cross, because I think, even as a culture, we're so
conditioned to do yeah,absolutely, so well, is there
anything else you'd like to addabout performance-based anxiety?
(31:11):
Or you know anything that thethat you feel like would be a
good resource for listeners?
Madison Reed (31:17):
Um, I, I guess my maybe just like a word of
encouragement of, like, theworld is really loud and there's
a lot of expectations and a lotof people telling you that
you've got to work harder and doand do and do and do, but right
, telling you that you've got towork harder and do and do and
do and do, but right.
I think it's important to kindof take a step back and figure
out it's not even a sense ofself, but just what do you want
(31:41):
out of life and how do you getthere?
And chances are, those thingsare not going to just be.
I want to be a billionaire, soI'm going to work super hard,
right, it's going to be.
I want to feel loved and I wantto just be happy, and those are
going to be kind of yourguiders for why you should be
doing some of this work and howto kind of pull it back to find
(32:04):
really what, what that path isto get those things.
Um, so, yeah, everyone could doit.
Cristine Seidell (32:10):
I think I think that's you.
You hit the nail on the head.
It's like I think I thinkthat's you.
Hit the nail on the head islike.
I think sometimes we feel likewhat will make me happy is when
I go and I do these things and Iget these accomplishments.
But when people get there, oneof the first things they tend to
say is I want to feel peace, Iwant to feel love, I want to
feel free All of whichperformance based anxiety
doesn't provide you Right.
(32:31):
It kind of feels like it keepsyou trapped.
So I think you know yourrecommendation of really coming
back to know who you are willguide you in the right direction
, and being able to be groundedis really one of the first steps
to doing that.
And I have to say, whenever Italk to Madison, she has just a
soothing voice.
I don't know what it is, butit's the tone or it's the
(32:51):
cadence or whatever it is.
I always feel so relaxed byyour voice and sometimes that in
and of itself is something thatwe need to be like wow, let me
just be in this conversation orlet me be in this space with
somebody.
So if anybody would like towork with Madison, I'm going to
put a link to her bio and waysthat you can work with her.
And she is amazing with anxiety, as you probably can hear in
(33:15):
this conversation.
Whether you're watching us andseeing us or just hearing our
voices, she definitely has avery calming, grounded presence,
so she's a pleasure to workalongside with, but I can
guarantee you she's a pleasureto work with as well.
So, madison, anything elseyou'd like to offer to our
friends or I?
Madison Reed (33:33):
don't think so.
Thank you for having me andthank you everyone for listening
and it was a lot of fun.
Cristine Seidell (33:38):
Yes, thank you for joining us.
Like I said, I'm going to put alink to your bio and ways that
they can contact our practice sothey can work with you.
Madison Reed (33:46):
Sounds good.
Cristine Seidell (33:47):
All right, thanks everybody for listening.
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