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April 9, 2021 56 mins

Hey lovelies!  Thank you all for rolling with our week delay so we could all get the covid vaccine, recover, and take a short vacation. (Also sorry, Thursday did not happen in our house, so happy Friday!) I am so excited for y'all to listen to this episode about therapy, giving feedback, and some weird fun questions we decided to ask each other during our intermission.

We had so much fun doing the questions that we ran overtime! The second half of that question section is up as March bonus content on our Patreon!

If you loved this episode, please subscribe, tell your friends, and leave a comment! Want to help pay Foxglove and get access to amazing bonus content? Consider joining our fan community on Patreon. You can also find us on Instagram, Tumblr, and Twitter. We answer at least one listener question every episode. You can email us at quaplenetwork@gmail.com with your questions about life, relationships, polyamory,  or anything really. 

A big thank to molly ofgeography for the use her song Hanahaki (Bloom) for our music.

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Foxglove (00:20):
Hey folks, I'm Foxglove.

Sage (00:22):
I'm Sage.

Sunflower (00:23):
I'm Sunflower!

Iris (00:24):
And I'm Iris.

Foxglove (00:25):
And this is And They Were Roommates, a podcast about
modern love, life, andeverything in between.

Sage (00:30):
Disclaimer
just lived through a lot. Thisweek, we will be talking about
finding a therapist and givingconstructive criticism.

Foxglove (00:48):
So as an opener, we're all in therapy.

Iris (00:51):
Yeah, officially, all four of us have managed to find the
therapist, which is superexciting.

Sage (00:56):
And it's great! Highly recommend.

Sunflower (00:57):
All at the same time.

Iris (00:59):
Yeah, I think this is the first time we all are in therapy
at the same time.

Sage (01:03):
Yeah.

Foxglove (01:03):
Yeah, for sure.

Iris (01:04):
It's great.

Sunflower (01:05):
Which if Fox and Sage didn't have therapy on the same
day, we would have just likefour days straight of therapy
every week. And I do think thatwould be funnier than what we
currently do.

Foxglove (01:13):
Yeah, but then we would have to schedule around
it.

Sunflower (01:15):
It's true. It's true.

Iris (01:16):
It's already a nightmare with three days.

Foxglove (01:17):
Honestly, it's a shame we can't have everyone's therapy
on the same day and condenseeveryone's like, emotional
experiences into the same likesix hours.

Sage (01:26):
That sounds like a bad idea Fox.

Sunflower (01:28):
Oh hell no.

Sage (01:29):
I like that we can space out our emotions a little bit.

Foxglove (01:32):
My therapist thinks I'm too invested in efficiency.

Iris (01:36):
Yeah.

Sunflower (01:36):
I'd believe that.

Sage (01:37):
I'd say tell us more, but we have other topics to discuss
today.

Iris (01:41):
Like what makes a good therapistfor you!

Foxglove (01:43):
Yes!

Iris (01:44):
Not generally.

Foxglove (01:45):
Should we start with like, what it looks like to
maybe need a therapist? Orshould we jump right into what a
good therapist for an individuallooks like?

Iris (01:53):
I think people can evaluate for themselves. Like
we, that's a whole subject inand of itself is like

Foxglove (02:00):
Legitimate.

Iris (02:00):
how to know when you need to go to therapy.

Foxglove (02:02):
Yeah.

Sunflower (02:02):
If you're considering going to therapy, go to therapy.

Foxglove (02:05):
Therapy is good for everyone.

Sage (02:06):
Yeah, exactly. I was gonna say that. Even if you don't like
acutely need therapy, which,congratulations, you're in a
good place in your life! It canbe helpful to have someone to
bounce things off of just likein your everyday experience. It
can be very revealing. It can bevery constructive.

Foxglove (02:22):
I would venture to say that if you're ever planning to
have children, you should maybejust hit up a therapist just
kind of with a spirit of like,covering your bases.

Iris (02:29):
Absolutely.

Sunflower (02:30):
It's also like, you can go to a therapist and a
therapist will honestly tell youafter like a couple of sessions,
getting to know them and stufftoo just to be like, No, I think
you're okay.

Foxglove (02:39):
Yeah.

Sunflower (02:39):
I think you got this.

Sage (02:40):
Mm-hmm.

Iris (02:41):
Yeah, that reminds me of Foxglove's mom, at one point.
Like, went for a tune up. Andlike, went to therapy for a
while, and then her therapistwas like, You're cool.

Foxglove (02:51):
Yeah. She went to like, four sessions, I think?
And the person she was seeingwas like, Honestly, you seemt
like you've really learned howto cope with your own life, and
like, you seem like you have ittogether, and you seem really
like, proud of your kid and youseem like you need to move out
of where you live. So like,maybe move somewhere less
isolated, and I think you'regonna be okay,

Sunflower (03:12):
On the absolute flip side. I made it to like two
years and was like, Heytherapist, I maybe feel like I
might be done. Am I done? Andshe was like, If you want to be
done, I will let you be done.
But I

Foxglove (03:25):
No girl.

Sunflower (03:25):
would like to continue seeing you.

Sage (03:28):
And that ended up being a good idea.

Sunflower (03:29):
Yes, it wasoh, God yeah.
But anyway, what makes a goodtherapist for you isthat, that
is not a subject I feelparticularly equipped to handle,
but I am happy to hand it off toone of y'all.

Iris (03:40):
Yeah, um, I can speak a little bit to that. There's a
lot of factors that go into whatmakes a good therapist for you,
first of all, baseline, find atherapist whose style works for
you. There's a bunch ofdifferent types of therapy with
different like, methodologiesand approaches to how they
actually do therapy. I encourageyou to look into those, we're

(04:02):
not going to go into like,intense detail, because I'm not
a therapist, and I do not have apsychology degree. So I wouldn't
explain them as well as somebodyon the internet who does would
be able to. But um, like, forexample, I knew I was looking
for somebody who does cognitivebehavioral therapy, and like,
get used to all like, all ofthose different terminologies,

(04:23):
do some research on that, andfigure out maybe what type of
therapy you're looking for andwhat you think might work, and a
lot of that is trial and errortoo of like, finding a
therapist, trying them out,seeing if you like their style,
and paying attention to whattype of therapy they do so you
know next time what you'relooking for. Another thing is,
if you're a part of a minoritygroup, it's frequently good to

(04:44):
look for therapists whospecifically work with minority
groups generally, or yourparticular minority group.

Foxglove (04:52):
I in particular went out and I found a clinic
thatI'm not looking for therapyabout gender, but I went out
found a clinic that specializesin queer therapy, because I was
like, I'm kind of tired ofhaving to explain the concept of
being nonbinary to a newtherapist. Whereas like, my
current therapist, I was justlike, Yeah, I'm trying putting

(05:15):
pronouns in like, the name of azoom call. So like, do you mind
if I switch them every once in awhile? And she was like, Yeah,
dude, whatever makes you happy.

Sunflower (05:25):
Yeah, I think the big thing too, is is like, get a
collection of like, what you'restruggling with together, like
write it down, make a list. Andreally like, there's websites
that help out there andeverything too of like, you can
filter by all these differentthings that you need help with
right now. Like I, I havetrauma. So I looked for like a
trauma-informed therapist, andlike I specifically looked for a
PTSD therapist, because I waslike, I've done some googling. I

(05:48):
think this might be it. I thinkthis is the thing.

Foxglove (05:50):
Yeah.

Sunflower (05:51):
And I also like, for this group, and for people who
listen, who maybe are also poly,having a therapist who's like,
down with your sexuality is likereally important.

Sage (06:01):
Absolutely.

Foxglove (06:02):
Especially because with polyamory in particular,
this only happened with onetherapist that I saw, and I
stopped seeing her for unrelatedreasons after one session, but I
told her I was polyamorous andher response was basically like,
Oh, okay, so you have attachmentissues. And I was like, that's,
that's not what I said.

Sunflower (06:20):
Nope.

Foxglove (06:20):
That's very different from what I said. Thanks for
trying, though.

Iris (06:24):
Exactly. Yeah. And there are a lot of places that will
like, advertise, or therapistsspecifically who will advertise
like, Hey, I work withnon-traditional family
structures, or

Foxglove (06:35):
That's the clutch phrase, yeah.

Iris (06:37):
Yeah. However, they decide to phrase it. But yeah, I think
what Sun mentioned about like,also, finding a therapist, like,
if you have a particular thingthat you're looking for a
specialty in, it's always a goodidea to obviously try to go and
filter therapists when you'relooking, which we'll get a
little bit into, like how toactually do the finding of the
therapist. Um, but yeah, like,always look for specialties,

(07:01):
minority groups, different typesof therapy.

Foxglove (07:04):
And I think the obvious one, one that's like, so
obvious I think we forgot tomention it. If you're only
comfortable seeing a therapistof a specific gender, you should
also not try to push yourself.
That's not the environment toget experimental in.

Sunflower (07:17):
That was, yeah, that was exactly what I was gonna
say. Like, I don't see doctorswho are male, for reasons, and I
also didn't want to see atherapist who's a male, because
I knew I would have trust issueswith that. So like, you really
need to, like, think about theimportant things for you to
trust that person as quickly aspossible.

Sage (07:34):
This is something that you're doing to help yourself,
don't put obstacles in your ownway while you're trying to do
that.

Sunflower (07:40):
Exactly.

Foxglove (07:41):
There are timeplaces and times to like, push your
comfort zone, and I would putfinding a new therapist not in
one of the places or times.

Sage (07:49):
Yep.

Sunflower (07:49):
Yeah, I think that's the big categories of like, what
youwhat makes a good therapistfor you?

Sage (07:54):
Yeah.

Foxglove (07:54):
Yeah, I would really, I would wholeheartedly recommend
searching by like, considerthose things in whatever order
they are most important to you,like the most important thing to
me was finding a therapist whohad experience with trans
patients. So like, no, I didn'tsearch for people who
specifically had experience withADHD and PTSD, I started with
people who had experience withtrans patients and worked my way

(08:16):
down from there.

Iris (08:17):
Exactly. Find what matters to you in a therapist versus
what generally matters intherapy.

Foxglove (08:22):
Yeah.

Sage (08:23):
So do we want to touch on how to actually put all those
different specialistrequirements into practice and
actually find someone?

Foxglove (08:31):
Can I recommend the like, most straightforward
method that was very friendly tome a person with massive
executive dysfunctioning issues?

Iris (08:40):
Yep.

Foxglove (08:41):
I just asked for a referral from someone who I knew
was seeing a good therapist. Iliterally was just like, Can you
ask them to email me a list ofclinics or whatever that take my
insurance. And then I justworked my way down that list

Sage (08:54):
That's how I found mine too.

Sunflower (08:54):
If you have a friend going to therapy who's feeling
good about the therapist they'rewith, like, they know other good
therapists.

Foxglove (09:01):
Mm-hmm.

Iris (09:01):
Yeah, I would say that that's actually probably the
best way to find a new therapistis through a referral from
somebody you trust who's also intherapy. Or if you're currently
seeing a therapist, one thing Iwant to mention because
sometimes it's a matter of like,Oh, you're in therapy with a
good therapist, and thensuddenly, they're moving or
switching practices or nottaking your insurance anymore,

(09:24):
and you suddenly need to find anew one. Ask them for help. If
you already have a goodtherapist, ask them for help
finding your next therapist,because they will do that and
they are happy to.

Sage (09:33):
And they know you best and they know the kind of people
that are going to be able tomesh well with you after having
spent that time with youalready.

Sunflower (09:40):
Yeah, I think the other thing that came in handy a
lot, I found my therapistthrough Psychology Today. And
that was like a big, they have alot of filters, they have
location filters, they havestuff you're looking for, and
they even have options for likeall the different LGBTQ stuff

Iris (09:55):
Identities.

Sunflower (09:55):
and also like polyamory and all of it.

Iris (09:57):
Big PSA that a lot of this stuff that we're talking about
when it comes to finding atherapist is specifically very
USA-centric. We live inBrooklyn, and that's where we
have done all of our findingtherapies, so we also have to
navigate things like thenightmare of the United States
medical system and insurance.

Foxglove (10:17):
Referrals, referrals are probably always a good bet.
But if you live somewhere whereyou don't have to worry about
paying hundreds and hundreds ofdollars out of pocket every
single week to find a therapist,the insurance thing is going to
be less of a concern for you.

Iris (10:30):
Yeah.

Sunflower (10:30):
Okay, is there any other where-to-looks that we've
thought about?

Sage (10:35):
The internet is a bountiful place full of
resources, just make sure thatyou do your due diligence
because the internet is

Sunflower (10:43):
A nightmare place?

Sage (10:44):
a boundless place filled with a ton of resources, and not
all of them are good.

Iris (10:49):
Yeah, and I will also say there are sometimes reference
sites, how I found my therapistwas through I think it's called
thewait, give me a sec. Iactually want to

Sage (10:59):
Yeah, put in a plug there.

Sunflower (11:01):
That it, yeah, that is a good one.

Iris (11:02):
Yeah. So if y'all are New York City-based like we are,
there is the ManhattanAlternative Wellness Collective.
And they are like, it's likemanhattanalternative.com, and
that is how I found mytherapist, not because the
people that I ended upcontacting through that website
actually had ended up havingopenings, but because I was able

(11:24):
to get a list from those people,for other similar people, and
the Manhattan AlternativeWellness Collective is a group
of like, people who are sexpositive, all gender and
lifestyle affirming therapy andwellness providers. So I found
them to be super helpful forfinding a therapist.

Sage (11:43):
Also, obligatory mentione that there are other services
out there that are not whatyou'd call traditional therapy,
stuff like Talkspace, andBetterhelp. And your mileage may
vary on those, it's a verydifferent kind of service than
just your traditional talktherapy. It does include some
video sessions, some audiosessions, and like some text

(12:05):
conversations. But yeah, it'snot for everyone. But it is an
option.

Foxglove (12:11):
I saw a therapist through Betterhelp. I believe,
for a while. I have seen,including school counselors,
nine therapists in my life. Mostof them were bad. But I saw a
therapist briefly throughBetterhelp, who was fine, I
stopped seeing her because shewasn't really like focused in
the area that I needed help in.
But the thing I liked about themis that you can just straight up

(12:34):
fucking ghost someone who isn'tworking out for you. No
conversation required, love thatshit. Someone refused to get my
name right for an entiresession, and I just bounced, and
the next therapist I found therewas fine.

Sage (12:48):
The sole engagement that I had with Talkspace was positive.
But I ended up finding my wayback to a therapist who had
worked really well with mebefore, so. I did not end up
getting that much experiencewith Talkspace. But I can put in
a plug for it for people whoperhaps are not into video

(13:11):
sessions or audio sessions andjust want to be able to chat at
someone throughout the day,which I know can definitely be a
helpful, helpful strategy fortalking with people.

Foxglove (13:21):
Or if you're in a tight financial spot.

Iris (13:23):
Which I will say, they do tend to cost more than you think
they will cost.

Foxglove (13:27):
Yeah. It's cheaper to do like, text only than video or
whatever. But like, in terms ofif it's all you can do, it is
somewhat more affordable thantraditional therapy.

Iris (13:39):
I do want to just throw out there, we've thrown some
names around, we are notadvocating for or advertising
for any of these individual

Sunflower (13:46):
Yeah. purely based on our very limited experience.

Iris (13:49):
Yeah.

Sage (13:50):
Yup.

Sunflower (13:50):
Which is important to say.

Sage (13:51):
Thanks for the disclaimer Iris.

Sunflower (13:53):
I will also say, if your best bet will probably
always be if you have healthinsurance, see what they have
for your behavioral healthcoverage, and if they have
in-network stuff, try to findsomebody who is in network or if
they have reimbursements, orwhatever, like really leverage
what you do have access to.

Foxglove (14:10):
Yeah. Especially because if you can get like a
list from your insurance ofplaces they cover, that is a
much more manageable startingpoint than like, Psychology
Today is great. I can handleabout 10 minutes on that website
before I'm so overwhelmed Icould cry.

Sage (14:26):
Also, in addition to going through your insurance to figure
out what they'll cover,behavioral health is often not
covered the same way as a lot ofother services through your
insurance, so. While you'reasking your insurance about who
or what to cover, please makesure what other limits there
are, what maximums or minimumsthere are, and if you are going

(14:47):
out of network, as a couple ofus are, how much they will cover
and when they'll start coveringthat amount. Because we live in
the US and there's some problemsthat go with that.

Iris (14:58):
Yeah I was about to say, can y'all

Sunflower (15:00):
Life is a fucking nightmare.

Iris (15:01):
can y'all tell we've been like a little bit screwed over
by the healthcare systemsometimes?

Foxglove (15:08):
Yeah, spot the people who got scammed by an insurance
company.

Sage (15:12):
I hate the fact that on a scale of people who have been
screwed over by the healthcareindustry that we're in the mild
camp, it just

Foxglove (15:19):
Yep.

Sage (15:19):
our standards are so low, guys.

Iris (15:22):
I mean, yeah, no, I mean, we aren't entirely in the mild
camp, considering the fact thatlike, we did get, like heavily
insurance scammed for a yearFoxglove.

Sage (15:32):
Oh yeah, there was

Foxglove (15:33):
I sure as hell did.

Sage (15:34):
well technically it didn't qualify as insurance. So.
Anyway, that's a sad story.

Foxglove (15:39):
Technically it wasn't insurance. But they did have a
lot of charges brought againstthem.

Sage (15:43):
Yay!

Sunflower (15:45):
Big nope. We're all fine. We have health insurance
now, it's good. Iris, you shouldstart this one.

Iris (15:52):
What to ask a new therapist?

Sage (15:53):
Yeah!

Sunflower (15:53):
Yeah yeah yeah, you should start this one.

Foxglove (15:56):
Have a list.

Iris (15:57):
Yeah. Um, so when it comes to interviewing a new therapist,
and that's a key word,interviewing, you are
interviewing them as much asthey are interviewing you. You
want to find somebody who's agood fit for you, do not settle
for a therapist, especially if,like in this current digital
world where you can see atherapist who might be further

(16:18):
away or might not be accessibleotherwise, try your best to find
somebody that actually works foryou who has the specialties you
need, and who you just likeclick with, is, is the biggest
thing. Because I had, in asimilar case, I had forgotten
one therapist earlier when wewere talking. So I've had
probably like six therapists atthis point, over the course of

(16:40):
my life, only my most recent onein a similar way to Fox, only my
most recent therapist is good.
And from session one, I wasopening up and I was telling her
things that I never told anyother therapist in years of
therapy. And I immediatelyclicked with her, and she's
helped me so much. And it'sbecause of the fact that we were
able to immediately develop thisrapport. And we were able to

(17:02):
immediately have that, like justconnection. It doesn't always
work that way. Sometimes youneed a couple of sessions to
like, figure out a dynamic witha therapist. That's okay too.
But just make sure you're notsettling for somebody who like,
you're not comfortable with orthat doesn't really understand
the way you communicate or theway that you're conveying your

(17:22):
emotions or your thoughts oryour feelings. So find somebody
that works with you. So that'slike my first PSA. And then
second is what do you actuallyask a new therapist. Good things
to ask is about the style oftherapy, the way that they tend
to do stuff, if you've hadproblems with therapists in the
past, you can, you know, pose aproblem to them. I know Fox,

(17:44):
you've done this, if you want totalk to that a little bit of
like, Hey, I tend to do X intherapy, how will you combat
that?

Foxglove (17:52):
Yeah, um, historically, part of the reason
I've had issues with therapistsis because they, I will walk in,
and I will be like, X thing isreally upsetting me. And then I
will have trouble talking aboutX thing, because I'm not good at
talking about my feelings. Andthen they will go, Well, you're
not talking about X thing, soyou must be fine. So when I
started looking for a therapistthis time around, I had like, a

(18:13):
list of questions, the first twoof which were like, I'm trans,
ya cool? And the second one was,like, I'm poly, ya cool? And the
third one was like, Here is aproblem I have had in the past,
how would you handle somethinglike this? Like, how would you
handle someone who was upsetabout something but having
trouble discussing it? And basedon their answer, I would proceed

(18:36):
from there. You can do thisduring the first session, you
can also, a lot of therapistswill do a phone consult ahead of
time, either on request or aspart of their standard practice.
And I'm not going to lie, not mycurrent therapist, but the
previous therapist, I like goton the phone with her and I was
like, I'm trans, ya cool? I'mpoly, ya cool? And I got so my
third question, and I like randown the list. And she was like,

(18:59):
Oh, okay. When you said you hadquestions, and you'd been to
therapy before, you meant, youknew what you were doing. And I
was like, Yes, yes, I do. Thankyou for asking. I do know what
I'm doing. Answer my questionplease. Um, you are allowed to
be kind of a hardass with a newtherapist, is my point here.

Sunflower (19:15):
You should be.

Sage (19:16):
Yeah you're entrusting them with your mental health.

Foxglove (19:19):
Exactly. You should be pushy, you can go in and be like
Here are my specific questionshere are my specific concerns. I
absolutely write that shit downbefore first sessions. And I go
in with a notebook, and I knowthat makes me look kind of
intimidating, and that's okay.
It's okay for a therapist to bea little intimidated if you show
up with like a page of notes.

Sunflower (19:36):
Yeah, you should be, you should, whatever that you
think would help you get moreout of your therapy, you should
ask questions about it. Andlike, there's a lot in there and
also like, I less formally wentinto it because I did like a big
long screener and then like,they helped me decide who out of
like 15 people would fit me bestbased on like availability and
what I would, what I needed andall that shit.

Iris (19:56):
That is the nice part if you go to an actual practice,
they can help match you with atherapist, which is like a

Sage (20:03):
Typically, typically there's someone who knows enough
extra-nice little step.
about all the different peopleat the practice who can read
your responses to thequestionnaire that you give
answers to and go like, Hmm, Ithink this therapist would be

Sunflower (20:12):
And then you read some bios.
the right person for you, orperhaps this person if that
person is not available. And itis a very convenient rocess.

Iris (20:21):
Yeah. And thenI'm sorry, you were saying?

Sunflower (20:23):
Definitely, definitely. Um, oh, I think it
was really just like, so I justlike hopped right into first
session, and I was the firsttime I ever met my therapist and
everything. And I really triedto likeluckily, I live with the
people I live with, obviously.
So I came home and everyone waslike, How did you like them?
Were you comfortable? Was itgood? Did you like them? Were
they nice? Is it like acomfortable place? Do you feel

(20:44):
safe? And like, that was reallygood. I think I needed to be
like a little interrogated,because I was so nervous to go
to therapy, because it was thefirst time not seeing like,
somebody who was mandated by aschool. And that was like a
really rewarding thing. And Ithink something that I like to
keep in mind when it comes totherapists and everything is
like you're paying them, you paythem like a lot of money. So
like, if they're not workingout, or you're not comfortable,

(21:06):
or you just don't like it, it'snot a good fit and everything,
they're probably not worth itthen.

Foxglove (21:13):
Yeah. And I think that brings us beautifully to the
last thing we wanted to discuss,which is knowing when to leave.

Sunflower (21:20):
Look at me doing a nice, smooth transition,

Foxglove (21:23):
Delivering the segue.

Sage (21:24):
It's a group effort

Foxglove (21:25):
It is. So I've learned some lessons about this.

Sunflower (21:29):
Do you want to tell us some lessons about this?

Foxglove (21:31):
The first thing I've learned is that I tend to be
excessively generous withtherapists, because I have
really intense anxiety. And solike, no, I'm not comfortable
with my therapist. Like, evenmy current therapist who is exce
lent and like, really pays attetion and really thinks her like
you know, words through andakes time to like, make sure

(21:53):
that I'm doing okay, I'm extrmely anxious with her. So no,
'm not comfortable with my therpist, and in the past, that mean
that I have come at it withthis attitude of like, I'll war
up to anyone given the tim. And fun fact, that has pro
uced me exactly zero reslts. And like, I've had th
rapists in the past who were fie, I saw one woman through Ta

(22:14):
kspace, who I stopped seeing beause I wound up in the ho
pital, and then my life got relly busy and I didn't talk to
er for a while.

Sage (22:20):
For unrelated reasons I should add.

Foxglove (22:22):
For unrelated reasons.
I had pneumonia, it was fun. Ihave seenI saw a therapist when
I was much, much younger, whowas fine, like she was fine. But
the issue with the fact that Itend to be excessively generous
is that like, with the lastcouple of therapists I've seen,
I've really had to like, havethe others kind of hold me
accountable for being honestabout how I feel about them. And

(22:45):
being honest about like, Well,you know, like this person has
canceled on me like three timeswith really very little notice.
And like, you know, I don't, Idon't like that, and I don't
feel great about it, and like,being able to articulate that
like I had a specific problemrather than just being like, I'm
anxious because I'm in therapyand it makes me anxious to have
to interact with like, a medicalprovider. That was, that was

(23:08):
key. So I would say that like,if you are someone who is
anxious in unfamiliar socialsituations, it's okay, don't cut
and run the first time you havea therapy session and you feel
pretty anxious through it,because that's very common. But
also like, if you have someonein your life that you trust,
maybe have them talk to youafter your therapy sessions, and
if you really like, don't vibewith how the therapy is going,

(23:32):
four sessions, five sessions,that's probably enough time to
have a sense of what's going on.
Absolutely. Like there arethings that are like red flags
immediately, like I once went toa therapist who said that they
were super-duper queer friendly,and then I walked in and asked
about, like mentioned beingbisexual and like, I had to

(23:53):
define it for her. And I waslike, cool, I'm gone.

Sage (23:56):
Oh yeah, just not worth it at that point.

Iris (23:58):
It's just not worth it at that point. Like I shouldn't
have to define my identities tomy therapist, I shouldn't have
to explain my existence to mytherapist.

Sunflower (24:07):
Also they're saying they're queer friendly, they
should know the like, basicdefinition of each of the
things.

Iris (24:12):
Exactly. But so like, there are some things that will
immediately red flag for you andyou can walk away. But like for
the most part, especially whenit comes down to that like,
developing a rapport and tryingto get past that initial anxiety
of going to a new therapist,give it a couple of sessions and
like Fox said, see if you cantalk about it with somebody that
you trust and I do want tohighlight that that conversation

(24:34):
with somebody you trust does notin any way shape or form have to
be about the content of thetherapy.

Foxglove (24:40):
Exactly.

Iris (24:40):
It should just be about, Are you comfortable with this
therapist? Are they helping you,do you feel safe, do you feel
supported.

Sunflower (24:48):
Do you feel like they're listening?

Foxglove (24:49):
That can look different person to person is
the other thing. Like really thething I was looking for when I
went out and found my currenttherapist was I was like, I
really just need someone who'sgoing to like, hold me
accountable to talking to aboutthe things I said I was here to
talk about. And like, she does agreat job at that. I'm
cripplingly anxious in therapy,the same way I'm cripplingly
anxious every time I go to adoctor. And it's just gonna be

(25:09):
like that for a while.

Iris (25:10):
And that's okay. It's still a new therapy relationship
too.

Foxglove (25:13):
Yeah like, I wasn't necessarily going into this
expecting to find someone wholike made me feel like safe and
fine from the jump. And I wasupfront with my therapist about
that, I was like, Hey, I'm gonnabe pretty nervous for a while.
That's okay, too. Part of theadvantage is that she pretty
much went, Okay, that's good toknow. And like, discussing the

(25:33):
experience of interacting with atherapist with someone you trust
can be really helpful to helpparse whether or not you should
keep seeing that person.

Iris (25:41):
And also, I do want to highlight before we like wrap up
therapy, that when you're goinginto therapy, especially if you
haven't done therapy before,this will change over time. But
it's helpful to inform thetherapist like of what you want
to get out of therapy. Not justwhy you're going, but what the
end goal is for your initialtherapy. That'll change over

(26:03):
time, you'll probably developnew goals and new milestones and
stuff like that. And where youthought you might end therapy
might not actually be where youend up at. But it's really
helpful for therapists to knowwhen you're going in why you're
going, but also what you wantout of it.

Foxglove (26:19):
Yeah. And it's okay if what you want out of it isn't
really clear to you upfront,it's okay, if you go in and
you're like, What I want out ofthis is to feel better. I feel
bad right now. And I don't wantto feel that way anymore. That's
enough of an answer.

Sage (26:32):
Your therapist should eventually be able to interpret
that vague of a statement andthen be able to give you more
actionable steps toward thatgoal. That is very literally
their job.

Iris (26:43):
Yeah, you don't have to know it all, but it helps if
you, especially if you have acertain thing you're going to
therapy for. If you have an ideaof what you want to get out of
it.

Sunflower (26:50):
Yeah, absolutely. I think that was pretty
comprehensive, y'all.

Foxglove (26:53):
I feel great about that.

Iris (26:54):
Cool.

Foxglove (26:55):
Yeah.

Sunflower (27:05):
Okay, who wants to intro our middle section?

Foxglove (27:08):
Well, I was told that I'm the best at doing tongue
twisters.

Sunflower (27:12):
Yeah you do it.

Foxglove (27:12):
So I guess it's me.
Now I, now I have to get itright the first time. So we did
this middle section for our veryfirst episode as kind of a get
to know us portion, and we hadso much fun with it we decided
to bring it back. We havedecided to name it Quick Quaple
Questions. And it's just gonnabe us coming up with
increasingly weirdas we runthrough the easy onesquestions

(27:33):
for the group. Who wants tostart? I guess we're taking
suggestions for this if anyonewants to like, email us or tweet
us a suggestion?

Sunflower (27:42):
Yeah you can send us like a not formal question.

Foxglove (27:44):
Yeah the weirder the better.

Sunflower (27:45):
Yeah send us these little weird ones, because we're
gonna run out.

Sage (27:49):
Nonsense. The Internet exists.

Foxglove (27:51):
Dangerous.

Iris (27:52):
I could go if nobody else has something prepared.

Sunflower (27:55):
Do it.

Foxglove (27:56):
I have one prepared but I'm saving it.

Iris (27:59):
Saving it. Oh, yeah. to torture us. Okay. Yeah, I
decided to theme mine with WouldYou Rather's is because we
didn't do any Would You Rather'sin the first episode, so my
first Would You Rather, supersmall short one to start us off.
Would you rather hear the goodnews or the bad news first?

Sage (28:21):
Ooh.

Foxglove (28:21):
Bad news, every time.

Sunflower (28:22):
That's a good question, though. It depends.
Like how bad is the bad news?

Sage (28:27):
I don't think it's that specific a question.

Foxglove (28:29):
I would always rather hear the bad news first.

Sunflower (28:31):
Well, I just like, if it's like, if it's like a death
in the family, I sure as fuckdon't want good news and then
bad news. But like if it's like,Hey, they were out of stock of
this thing, but I got you yourfavorite one, I probably want
the good news first of like, Igot you this really nice candy,
it's not your favorite onebecause they were out of it, but

(28:52):
I did get you this one.

Sage (28:53):
I'm like, I'm like the other way around. Because I
would always rather like leadoff with the bad news and just
sort of like, take that acceptit and then be left with the
memory of the whatever good newsthere is. Just like, let me end
on that note.

Foxglove (29:10):
Exactly.

Sunflower (29:11):
That's fair.

Iris (29:12):
Yeah, I feel like I tend to lean more towards, I want the
bad news up front, because I'man anxious person. And
especially if somebody comes atme with like, Good news, bad
news, and then tries to leadwith the good news, I'm like,
No, no, no, no, no, you go back.
What's the bad news first. Butno, I think it really does
depend on like, the severity,because you can like, come in
with some some like good news tosoften a not so bad bad news.

(29:35):
Like, and that can be reallyhelpful.

Sunflower (29:41):
Yeah, it might make the bad news less bad.

Iris (29:43):
Right?

Sage (29:43):
If it's like super minor bad news, then it can be really
funny to do it the other wayaround. It's like, I have this
great good news! And the badnews is like, They didn't have
this candy or something likethat. Then it's just funny, it's
out of proportion.

Foxglove (29:59):
Always want the bad news first, every time

Sunflower (30:02):
That's because you're deeply anxious

Iris (30:03):
That's because you're the most anxious bean ever,

Foxglove (30:07):
The knowledge that there is bad news will ruin the
good news for me.

Sage (30:11):
That'syeah, you know, you really did sum up my exact
feelings about that as well.
Thank you.

Foxglove (30:16):
Yes,

Sunflower (30:17):
Yeah, that's a good summation of it. Um, I have a
really non-serious question,because I wanted to ask a bunch
of serious questions abouttrue-crime related things. But
none of my partners are actuallythat into my interest. So

Foxglove (30:28):
I know some things about true crime!

Sunflower (30:29):
they wouldn't know or have any interest in

Sage (30:30):
What!?

Foxglove (30:30):
I listen to true crime podcasts for you!
Yeah, but you don't like, Imean, I guess you could answer
like, what, what's if you couldhave one case solved, what would
be your case?
I think you made a compellingcase for Maura Murray earlier. I
would take that. There are somehistorical cases that I would
love to get like, realconfirmation on. They're not

(30:51):
really like, you know, to someextent, like, jack the Ripper,
or whatever isn't like, quoteunquote, true crime, because it
is passing into the realm ofhistory at this point.

Sunflower (31:01):
It did still happen, it is still true crime.

Foxglove (31:02):
But like, there is some stuff like that. Yeah,
exactly. I think your case forMaura Murray earlier was good

Sunflower (31:04):
Yeah, that one's just an impressively weird
ust because the window there iso small.
disappearance that I still can'tlike, wrap my head around. There
are a couple more that like Ipersonally want answers to, but

Foxglove (31:20):
Or Madeleine McCann, purely because I want to know
how, like, how inept her parentsactually were.

Sunflower (31:29):
I have an answer for Madeleine McCann. And we'll do
it off mic because it's dark asshit.

Sage (31:36):
I think I'm going to go with Dyatlov Pass Incident,
because there's just so manyconfusing things about that
case, and what happened to thosehikers and I know all of this is
really niche listeners, but bearwith us. We'll get to stuff that
you don't have to Google everyscrap of soon.

Sunflower (31:56):
These are well known things!

Iris (31:58):
I don't have any, and also, just as a reminder, we did
cut a solid four minutes out ofour last episode about serial
killers that made it into ourbloopers. So here's a small
plug, if you want to listen tothat, go on our Patreon.

Foxglove (32:14):
Listent o us literally just get bullied by Sun for our
lack of knowledge about truecrime for four and a half
minutes straight. I edited thatblooper today.

Sunflower (32:22):
It's just a really deep interest to me. I think
personally, the Maura Murraycase, I would really want
solved. I also really want toknow what happened to JonBenet
Ramsey. I want to know, I justdo. Yeah, okay. We'll

Iris (32:36):
You said you had a non-serious question?

Sunflower (32:38):
Okay. That was good.
That was good answers. I likedit.

Foxglove (32:41):
Do you feel vindicated?

Sunflower (32:42):
I had fun.

Sage (32:45):
I can, I can do one. I have one that I enjoy. What'sto
each of you, what's the closestthing to real life magic to you?

Sunflower (32:55):
Oh, shit.

Sage (32:57):
Like what, what natural phenomenon or like piece of
technology is just like so goddamned amazing that it's just
like, Yeah, this is actuallykind of magical.

Foxglove (33:09):
I have a 'I passed physics' answer, and I also have
a I'm a human answer. Which oneare you interested in?

Sunflower (33:16):
Both

Sage (33:17):
Uh, human.

Foxglove (33:18):
On a on a totally human level, the Aurora Borealis
is where it's at. And on arelated note, the physics level
is magnets.

Sage (33:28):
Oh, God. Yes. Ordinary magic.

Foxglove (33:31):
I was only forced to survive two semesters of
physics. If you like physics, Ifucking salute you, you are a
creature unlike anything I haveever known in my life. God be
with you. I don't want to dophysics ever again. But I got
far enough to know that as soonas the, And how does the

(33:52):
magnetic field effect this?
question comes out, you just gohome. That's the end of your
day. You just go home.

Sage (34:00):
Iris, you look like you saw a ghost. You OK over there?

Iris (34:04):
I just

Foxglove (34:04):
Do you have a bug in your room?

Iris (34:05):
I know that, like we're gonna turn off the recording.
And I'm gonna be like, it'sthat. I know, like, I have one.
But like, my brain is justblanking, and I'm like, I know
I'm gonna have so many that I'mgonna curse myself for not
saying, so I'm having a tinymeltdown in the corner.

Sage (34:19):
OK, Sun, your turn.

Sunflower (34:21):
I have a lot of answers to this one. First off
predictably, jellyfish. Why dothey work What are they doing?
How do they even function? Ilove them. They're gooey balls
of love, and I want to hold themall. I think also

Foxglove (34:37):
They want to hold you too.

Sunflower (34:37):
maybe just generally on the same like light thing,
because light does stuff tohumans and everything,
bioluminescent plants andanimals.

Foxglove (34:44):
Yeah!

Iris (34:45):
Yeah that's a good answer.

Sunflower (34:46):
Specifically like what is that on the beaches? Are
they krill? Are theybioluminescent krill or
something?

Foxglove (34:51):
Algae.

Sunflower (34:51):
That shit, that's really fucking cool.

Iris (34:54):
Yeah, it does look very magical.

Sunflower (34:56):
Oh oh oh, I have an important one. Bumblebees, how
do they fly? What are theydoing?

Foxglove (35:03):
They've actually disproved that as a paradox. We
know that science now.

Sage (35:06):
Yeah!

Sunflower (35:06):
That's fair.

Sage (35:07):
We have answers!

Sunflower (35:08):
It's, it still seems magical when they hold so much
pollen and they're so fat. Oh, Ilove them. It's fine.

Sage (35:14):
I have, I have two while we wait for Iris to come up with
hers.
Finish her existential crisis.
Just go like Criss Angel.
He's a mindfreak! Anyway.
Physics one, black holes,because as much as I read about
them, I still can't quite wrapmy head around the, the

(35:38):
conceptual angle of that, butthey've fascinated me from the
minute I learned what they were,you know, the the fact that the
word spaghettification exists isthanks to black holes, so we got
them to think for that too. It'sa good word. And the, the
technology thing, there's a newkind of, well, I guess it's not
actually new. But drones being athing now, and being able to

(36:03):
wear a headset that allows youto look through the camera of a
drone and fly just like, like abird through the air and see
what the drone is seeing. That'sjust, that's a cool thing that I
cannot believe exists still,that has developed literally in
our lifetime.

Iris (36:22):
Yeah, I have a couple. I stopped having my little crisis
if you, if you want, if you wantsome answers. I'm sure I'm gonna
come up with better stuff afterthe podcast and I'm gonna fly
into the room the second we turnoff the recording and yell it
across the apartment, and I wantyou to know that in advance.

Sage (36:37):
That's fine.

Sunflower (36:38):
We'll make a post about it. We'll tweet about it.

Iris (36:43):
But um, yeah, a couple of things I was thinking about. On
like, a, like, large scalelevel. I think it's really like
magical and fascinating the waythat like, humans progressed
technology at the same time,like on the level of

Foxglove (37:00):
Oh, like calculus.

Iris (37:01):
Yeah, yeah, that we just like came to the same
conclusions like disparatehumans all around the world
coming to the same, likeconcepts and thoughts at the
same time. Wild.

Sunflower (37:11):
That's really cool.

Iris (37:12):
On like, a more modern technology level, I find 3D
printers fascinating. The factthat you can have nothing and
then have something that youprinted with a computer? That's
wild. That'show do we do that?
I don't know. I don't know howthey work and they're magic to
me.

Sage (37:28):
We were watching a How It's Made video on this just the
other day.

Iris (37:33):
And I also I had this moment, that I like walked into
the room the other day and toldSun about, where I just had this
moment where I was likemessaging a friend on my
computer. And then I like pickedup my phone and I like ran to
grab water from the kitchen. AndI like continued the
conversation seamlessly by justpicking up my phone. And I had

(37:55):
one of those weird moments whereI was like, Wow, it's kind of
magical to be living in themodern day and age where like,
you can just be in constantcommunication and seamlessly
like, move between different,like technology platforms. And
this wasn't a thing even when Iwas born and like now it's just
such a normal part of my life.

Sunflower (38:12):
Also like, even when we were young teenagers, like
texting really wasn't like a bigthing. And now like, that's
literally all I do all day. Wellthat's not true.

Foxglove (38:20):
100%.

Sunflower (38:22):
Yeah, it's crazy.

Iris (38:23):
Yeah. So there are some answers.

Sunflower (38:25):
Yeah.

Foxglove (38:26):
Am I up? Should I start with a regular person
question?

Sunflower (38:29):
Yeah, why don't you start with a regular person
question, then we'll get reallyunhinged at the end of this.

Foxglove (38:33):
Great. I love it. If you could remake one movie,
which and why. You have like aminute to explain yourself so we
don't get too in the weeds forthis it is for me specifically.

Sunflower (38:45):
Fuck, you warned us about this and I didn't prep at
all.

Foxglove (38:48):
I did warn you about this.

Sunflower (38:50):
I didn't think about it!

Foxglove (38:50):
I even warned you that I, you were going to need to
have some stuff prepped so thatyou could rein me in when I
inevitably went the fuck offabout it.

Sunflower (38:57):
Well I'm timing you, but I have no idea what I'm
gonna say.

Sage (39:03):
Can we do a trilogy?

Foxglove (39:04):
Sure.

Sage (39:05):
I mean, like, maybe just a series. The prequel and the most
recent Star Wars trilogies.

Foxglove (39:14):
You are valid.

Sage (39:14):
Just like, I would love to see some people take another
shot at that. Even if it wasjust like, Episode I just to set
a better example. I don't feellike I need to explain myself.
That's my answer.

Foxglove (39:30):
Nope, you're, you're valid.

Iris (39:33):
Gonna have some Star Wars fans coming at us.

Sunflower (39:35):
Yeah, that's okay.

Foxglove (39:38):
Listen, guys, three, like the, the movies are not
coherent, or linear.

Sage (39:43):
One of these days

Foxglove (39:44):
There are three of them and they don't make sense
together.

Sage (39:45):
one of these days, I am going to make you watch them.

Sunflower (39:49):
Oh. Okay.

Foxglove (39:51):
That'll be your fault.

Sage (39:55):
We watched The Room. I feel like this is not the worst
case scenario here.

Sunflower (39:59):
That's a cult classic That is a very well known movie.

Sage (40:02):
So is Star Wars. So is Star Wars. More so.

Iris (40:06):
Reining it in. Reining it in.

Sunflower (40:07):
Okay okay hold on.
The room is like an hour and 15minutes though. That's it that's
the only statement I have tosay.

Sage (40:15):
And the suffering is eternal anyway next question.

Iris (40:19):
Reining it in. No not next question only one person
answered!

Foxglove (40:21):
You're the only person who answered!

Sage (40:23):
Next answer, sorry.

Iris (40:27):
Okay. Um, I have a really silly one because I, like I'm
not a big movie buff so I don'thave any movies that I'm like Oh
this needs to be remade better.
What I want, is I want a remakeof one of my favorite rom-coms,
What's Your Number, but I wantit to be gay. I specifically
want like, almost any rom-com Ilike, I want it, but I want it
to be lesbians.

Foxglove (40:48):
Oh my god, you know what would be good as lesbians?
The Proposal.

Iris (40:53):
Yeah, The Proposal. I also want that one. I just want,
there are no like queerrom-coms. I want rom-coms with
nonbinary folks in it. I wantrom-coms with trans folks in it.

Foxglove (41:03):
God that would treat me so right.

Iris (41:03):
I want rom-coms with like, a bisexual main character. I
want rom-coms that show thepeople who like, like I grew up
on rom-coms. Andthey're not gay.

Sunflower (41:12):
I want soft gay men who show their emotions.

Iris (41:15):
Yeah. Yes! Yes. Give me, there are so many, I have so
many, like I have like a list ofrom-coms written down that are
just like, rewritten withdifferent combinations of like
queer folks, and it's just, it'sall so much better, and there's
so much hilarity you could getout of like, queer culture and

(41:37):
gay jokes and like,misunderstandings from being
queer, and stuff. Like, there'sjust so much untapped potential.
Hollywood get on it. Hire somegay folks and actually make
rom-coms.
Thank you. That's my rant.

Sunflower (41:51):
The biggest mood.

Foxglove (41:53):
Yeah. I don't, I don't

Iris (41:55):
Also polyamorous ones!

Sunflower (41:56):
Yeah, give me polyamorous movies.

Iris (41:57):
Sorry. I'm done. I'm done.

Sunflower (41:59):
Are you sure? For realsies?

Foxglove (42:00):
You're done?

Iris (42:01):
I'm done!

Sunflower (42:02):
I, like, I have a hard time with this. There are
like, there are movies that likecould be better with remakes and
stuff like that, but like, Idon't, I don't know. I like bad
movies. I like tragically badmovies.

Foxglove (42:14):
You do.

Sunflower (42:15):
Like, The Room and everything else Tommy Wiseau
made.

Foxglove (42:18):
That's an unfair question for you specifically.

Sunflower (42:20):
What?

Foxglove (42:20):
It's an unfair question for you specifically.

Sunflower (42:23):
I like bad movies! I don't know, I like campy movies,
I like dumb movies where theyfucked up the whole thing. I
like watching bad horror moviesbecause they're bad horror
movies. It's the kind of personI am. I would have liked them to
make, there's a book seriescalled Fallen and it's about
angels versus demons and a bunchof other shit. And it's a pretty
good book series. It has likesome problems. Ie. love

(42:43):
triangles. Why not just make itpoly, it'd be better that way.
Then it would be like, a fallenangel and like the son of
Lucifer and this girl dating andI'm real into it. Um

Foxglove (42:54):
Vastly more potential.

Sunflower (42:55):
Yeah, but they made the first movie and they were
gonna make more and everythingbut the first movie didn't
really do well. So like I wouldremake that one because it would
be a really cool like full movieseries because like, there's
like eight books or something.
And like I would take more ofit. That's the best I got.

Foxglove (43:10):
Excellent. That's a good answer, solid answer.

Iris (43:13):
And we're supposed to rein you in if you get too off the
rails, right?

Sage (43:16):
Oh, right.

Sunflower (43:17):
We're all answering.

Foxglove (43:18):
I would remake Days of Future Past.

Sage (43:20):
Yep. There it is.

Foxglove (43:21):
I dislike a lot of X-Men movies. I have a lot of
problems with a lot of X-Menmovies. Like truly watching an
X-Men movie with me is an act ofself torture. However, I hate
the movie Days of Future Past sogoddamn much. I feel deeply
wronged by its mere existence. Icannot believe they made
Wolverine the main character ofthat movie. I could write five

(43:44):
essays about individual problemswith it and they would all be 30
pages long and I would stillhave shit to say. Like, truly, I
cannot believe they won't letKitty Pryde star in her own
goddamn narrative. I'm so sickof their shit. I hate that movie
so much. I think that was lessthan a minute.

Sunflower (44:04):
It was.

Sage (44:04):
It absolutely was.

Iris (44:05):
I'm really proud of you.

Sunflower (44:06):
It was really good. I was gonna mark the time in the
beginning but I didn't.

Foxglove (44:08):
It was the best comic, I love that comic run.

Sunflower (44:10):
Oh now you're over.
You were really that close.

Foxglove (44:11):
I loved I loved days of future past.

Sunflower (44:13):
Now you're a minute and five seconds.

Foxglove (44:16):
Okay.

Sage (44:17):
I think there were pauses for breath that can be removed
and then we can fit it.

Sunflower (44:22):
No no, those don't get removed. The panic breaths
are part of it.

Foxglove (44:25):
I just, it's such a bad movie. It's both badly
constructed and it is, it angersme on a profound level. Anyway,
I hate that movie. I hate Daysof Future Past and I hate it
even more because it's agenuinely good comic.

Sunflower (44:41):
You're done. You have no more time.

Foxglove (44:42):
I'm done.

Sunflower (44:43):
You're done. You're good.

Foxglove (44:56):
Hey folks, you'll notice that this does not
feature nearly as many questionsas we said it would. That's
because it got super long. So Icut the back half of the
Questions section and popped iton Patreon as this month's bonus
content. Go ahead and take apeek at it if you're interested,
it features a couple of veryreasonable questions and then me
relentlessly bullying my threebeloved partners for about 10

(45:20):
minutes straight. So um, goahead and check us out. And next
time, we're only gonna do oneset of questions because this
got very long.

Iris (45:39):
All right. we have a question sent in by one of our
Patreon subscribers, Katherine!We answered the first half of
her question last episode, so golisten to episode six if you
haven't heard our conversationon compliments. The second part
of her question was, What doesgiving feedback mean, as in
constructive criticism, whichsociety tends to see as telling
everyone everything that's wrongwith a thing rather than helping

(46:01):
the person or organization etc,grow. So how do you give
feedback. To Fox, just like lastweek, I think you have a very
clear and concise formula forthis

Foxglove (46:11):
I do!

Iris (46:11):
so I'm going to just hand it off to you.

Foxglove (46:13):
I, I'm going to mention first up that part of
the reason I have, I talked lastweek about how I struggled a lot
in social situations as a kidand I had to learn some
schematics. And so I learned aschematic for compliments. And
similarly, I'm going to mentionbriefly here that I have ADHD,
which we've covered before. Acommon issue with ADHD is
something called rejectionsensitive dysphoria, which

(46:36):
basically means that I reallystruggle to like, process my own
emotions in like a healthy andproductive manner. Because my
brain can't like perceive timecorrectly, among other things.
Um, so RSD means that if someonehands me a critique, it's much
much harder for me to deal withemotionally. Without it, like

(46:59):
feeling like a completecatastrophe. So I have kind of
learned, A, I've kind of had tolearn to take criticism, which
has been challenging, but B I'vekind of learned how to recognize
unhelpful critiques or like badfeedback when I see it, purely
because I had to learn how tolike, parse it in order to keep

(47:19):
myself from having like ameltdown every third day in
college. So I think the keything is to say that bad
feedback, like not in the sensethat someone is giving you
negative feedback, but when theyare doing a bad job at it. In my
experience that generally lookslike, if it's only criticism,
with no suggestions on how tofix a problem, no indications on

(47:42):
something you're doing well,andhow do I want to put this
last one. The expectation thatyou're going to take their word
as gospel. Like no sense ofscale for how, how much merit
you're going to put in theirword versus another person's.
And I think this applies evenfor something like a teacher
where like, yeah, they are yourteacher, it is their job to give

(48:05):
you feedback and critiques. Butif your teacher just tells you,
you did this wrong, and thendoesn't like offer any, like
changes to make, doesn't followup at all, doesn't like address
the problem in any way, thenyou're just going to learn to
avoid doing that thing.
Likewise, if you're never toldwhat you're doing well, for

(48:27):
comparison value, you like,learn to assume that you're
disastrously bad at all parts ofa task. Especially because like,
there are some things wherelike, yeah, you learn that you
did it wrong, like math. Um, youknow, if you did your
multiplication wrong, you justdid your multiplication wrong.
But there are a lot of thingslike essay writing, where if you

(48:50):
just get like a bunch of redunderlines, with no notes, and
no one will tell you what'swrong with them. And then you
get docked 30 points on anessay, that's not helpful.
You're not getting anywhere withthat. Like, if you're going to
give a critique, you have toarticulate what's wrong, and how
to fucking fix it. Like youcan't just show up with a list

(49:12):
of problems, you have to show upwith some kind of at least the
first step of a solution. I havesome big opinions about this.

Sage (49:19):
This is one of the reasons that I love constructive
feedback instead of constructivecriticism, because it really is
the whole package. Like it's notjust, I am telling you all the
things that are wrong with thisthing that you did. It's some
things work, some things don't,here's why all of that is the
case. As with so many of thethings that we discuss, thorough

(49:40):
communication is key toeverything.

Iris (49:44):
Well, and it really should be about balance.

Sunflower (49:46):
Yeah, and it's also like, feedback also entails this
idea that there is like a wholeto it. It's not like the whole
thing is wrong because of acouple of mistakes. It's, it's a
lot more of a like a taking astep back and being like,
there's some good in here. Let'sfigure out how to make it better
together, because there's likegood things in here and you
don't just have to throw thewhole thing away.

Sage (50:05):
Yeah, that actually, that actually brings up one of my,
one of the things that Ireference a lot when talking
about giving feedback, you'retrying to make something into
what the other person is tryingto make it, not into what you
want it to be. Don't let yourvision override what the other
person is intending to do withit. Try to make their vision

(50:28):
shine. Don'tyeah, don't don'ttake control of it.

Iris (50:32):
Yeah. Especially with creative stuff, like writing or
art, or that sort of stuff,like, especially the case when
you're giving feedback on thatsort of thing. It should be
about like, the person who'sreceiving the feedback's vision
being nurtured and grown,instead of you imposing what you
would have done with it, becausethen you should just go do or
write or make that art.

Sage (50:53):
Yes.

Foxglove (50:54):
Which is why like, part of the important detail
about giving feedback aboutthings is that sometimes you are
not the right person to givefeedback on something. I
personally do not read a lot oflike, I don't know, what's a
good example, um, I don't read alot of romance novels as a
There's also like saying, like,I'm not an expert on this
genre. If someone asked me togive them feedback on like the

(51:17):
writing of a romance novel theywere working on, I would be able
to tell them like grammar, Iwould be able to tell them like,
character structure andnarrative structure. But I
wouldn't be able to give themanything of real use on the
novel as a romance because it'sjust not the kind of thing I'm
familiar with. I would tell themto find someone else who was

(51:37):
more capable of giving them thatfeedback. That's not a failure
on your part. It's okay to belike, this actually just isn't
my area. But you should admitthat instead of just talking out
of your ass, and just sayingwhatever you feel is right,
because then you will probablyfuck up.
matter, and or I don't know,like the technical parts of it,

(51:59):
but I can give you some, like,how I feel about it, or how it
worked for me personally, butlike, I don't know how much help
that will give to you.
Yeah.

Sage (52:06):
Another very important thing up front. Did the person
ask for feedback to begin with,if not, do not offer feedback if
they are not asking for it.
Because it's extremely rude.

Foxglove (52:20):
People do shit for fun. People do shit for fun is
the thing like, hey, if you'relike at work, and someone who
works for you made a mistake.
Yeah, go ahead and give themthat unsolicited feedback. Don't
be a douchebag, but go ahead. Ifyou're just like out in the
world, and someone is doingsomething for personal
amusement, they probably don'tneed you to correct their comma
use.

Iris (52:41):
Yeah, and one of the things I also wanted to bring up
is, when you do decide to givefeedback, which I think plays
into the whole, like, Don't givefeedback to just like random
people who haven't asked for it,I think a good guiding principle
when you're giving feedback is,who are you giving feedback for?

(53:02):
Are you doing it for yourself,to make yourself feel like you
know something and that you likethat you have, like the upper
hand in the situation? Or areyou doing it to actually help
the person who's receiving thefeedback be nurtured and grow
and get better at the thing thatthey're doing because they've
asked for your help. Becauselike, you should always be

(53:22):
centering the person that'sactually getting the feedback
and not centering your own ego.
Which I think tends to get inthe way of a lot of feedback.

Sunflower (53:29):
Yeah, that's a really good way of saying that, of
like, this is not about you.

Iris (53:33):
Yeah, feedback shouldn't be about you at all, feedback
should be about the other personand helping them grow in a way
that's actually constructive andnot quashing them.

Foxglove (53:42):
Yeah. And I thinkobviously, like, if you
are someone who, like me, reallystruggles to emotionally parse
criticism, and like, has a hardtime with it, I had to learn to
do it, like, you're going to getnegative feedback in your life,
it is just a fact. Maybe see atherapist about it, I don't
know. Um, but, for the peoplegiving the feedback, there is a

(54:04):
way to give negative feedbackthat doesn't make it sound like
you're being unkind, for lack ofa better word. There's a huge
difference between being like, Idon't like this, I'm just gonna
use writing metaphors, becausethat's, that's what I do. I
don't like this character, Ithink you should change them.
Versus being like, Thischaracter doesn't seem like they

(54:27):
work in like, this way, or theydidn't work for me in that way.
And like, What are you trying toachieve with them? Because it
didn't seem like it was comingthrough. Those are essentially
the same sentence phrased inradically different ways. And
one of them is way less awful tohear.

Sage (54:44):
And one of them is also significantly more detailed in a
way that is a lot more helpful.

Foxglove (54:50):
Yeah, like, I don't like X is really unhelpful. If
you walk up to me while I'mknitting, and you're like, you
know, I don't like the color youused, okeydoke. That's super
great. Fortunately, I'm, I don'tcare and I don't have to care.
But if you walk up to me andyou're like, Hey, the person
you're making this for isallergic to wool. Are you using

(55:10):
wool yarn? That's a differentconversation.

Sunflower (55:14):
That's also not feedback. That's general harm,
like, management.

Foxglove (55:18):
Exactly. But it is still like, it is still
essentially the same thing ofbeing like, Hey, like, x way
that you're doing Y thing mightbe a problem. Have you
considered looking at it? Butyeah, anyway, it's about paying
attention to the way you speak,which I think is important
across the board. And it's aboutconsidering why you're giving

(55:39):
that feedback. And it's aboutmaking sure that you do have
some positive shit to say. Like,if every single thing you have
to say is a negative, you maynot be the audience to give that
feedback.

Sunflower (55:50):
Yeah.

Iris (55:50):
And be kind. Even with your, even with the negative
aspects.

Sunflower (55:55):
You did a great job.
I think that was a greatsegment. That was I think we
should just call it I think thatwas really succinct.

Sage (56:00):
Yeah, think that about sums it all up.
All right. Should I do theoutro?

Sunflower (56:03):
Yeah!

Sage (56:04):
Yup.

Foxglove (56:04):
All right. That's been us, the Quaple. As always a big
thank you to Molly Ofgeographyfor the use of her song Hanahaki
(Bloom) for our music. Come findus on Twitter or on Instagram at
atwrpodcast, at Tumblr atquaple-network, or even by email
at quaplenetwork@gmail.com. Tossus a question or an advice topic
or apparently, very shortquestions for our middle
section. We love hearing fromyou. And of course, go ahead and

(56:27):
check out our Patreon at theatwrpodcast if you want to tip
me for my editing work. If youlove our podcast, please share
with your friends and leave acomment wherever you listen. And
as always remember, we believein you! Bye!

Quaple Network (56:40):
Bye!
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