August 10, 2025 • 49 mins
This episode offers honest insights into one of the most challenging aspects of palliative care - communicating with children about terminal diagnosis and a rapidly progressing condition. Aron shares how he and Angela navigated conversations with their children, and Kathrin, Creative Arts Therapist at Hospice West Auckland, offers professional insights and guidance on supporting children during these difficult times.
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:04):
On October 17, 2023 the bright more family's world
was turned upside down when atthe age of just 44 a tumor was
found in Angela's brain.
One month later, they wereintroduced to the world that is
hospice. This is Angela's story,walking the final path together
a hospice West Auckland podcast.
(00:28):
Hello and welcome to episodethree. In the last episode, we
spoke with Charlie, who wasAngela's primary nurse, and we
learned about the firstadmission for Angela two
hospice. And today, we haveanother special guest from the
team. We're joined by Catherine,who's our creative arts
therapist. Welcome Catherine,thanks for joining us. Hello.
Good to be here. Tell me beforewe crack into things, what is
(00:53):
the role? What does a creativearts therapist do? All sorts of
things, and I think it is one ofthose roles that is just a
little bit nebulous for people.
I do various things in my roleoverall. Maybe an easy way to
explain it is that a creativearts therapist lives in the
realm of counseling andpsychotherapy. So some of that
work that a counselor orpsychotherapist would do, and I
(01:14):
bring in a lot of creativeexpression, could be painting,
movement, sand tray, all sortsof things. And it can be a way
of, kind of exploring what ishappening for a person, kind of
that deeper work. And it canalso be a place to just have
fun, a little bit of lightness,and play with the art materials
and let them do their magicalsomething. So it's, it's kind of
(01:39):
a big umbrella of offerings thatI have, yeah, and I'm guessing
it's, you don't have to be goodat art to do arts therapy. Not
at all. It is primarily aboutthe process of just playing with
the materials, seeing whatarrives. It's not so much about
the product. Can be importantwhat sits in front of us at the
(02:01):
end. But you don't have to begood at it. I'm not good at art.
So it's really, it's hopefullyquite non threatening for
people. And I can imagine usingthe creative mediums and the non
threatening approach means thatthe work is quite good with
children, which is why we've gotyou here today. Yeah, it's, it's
actually good with any age. Butyeah, I do also I love working
(02:24):
with little people and goinginto those playful spaces with
them, and speaking theirlanguage, creativity, art,
making, play, that's theirlanguage, and meeting them where
they're at absolutely and so,Aaron, I know that you, your
family, had a little bit ofinput from Catherine. We did in
your journey, particularly withwith young Taylor, yep, yep. So
(02:46):
about the same time that that Istarted coming to auspice forum
for counseling. Taylor camealong too, and got to meet, got
to meet Catherine. Taylor is aTaylor loves that, you know, the
arts and crafts kinds of thingsas well. So it was really good,
good for her.
(03:10):
The only downside was that shewould come out covered in
glitter. Taylor loves glitterand and Catherine was a big fan
of encouraging her love forglitter so that the drive home,
you know, would involve, once wegot home, would involve
vacuuming the car, and Taylorand 10 and Taylor, but yeah,
she, she really, really enjoyedit. And did lots of, you know,
(03:34):
lots of fun things that she,that she really enjoyed. So,
yeah, it's cool.
I remember going into a few ofinto your room, Catherine, after
you've had some sessions, andit's, it starts off so nice with
all of the creative supplies.
And I just love it, because yougo in and it's, there's
everything there for you to pickand choose from. And after a
session, when you go in,sometimes it's just chaos and
(03:55):
their hate, yeah, it goesagainst everything for, like, I
would literally come outcovering covered in glitter, and
like you say, like, the roomwould just be chaos, and I'd be
like, This is not for me at all.
Like, there's no organizationhere, but Taylor's had a great
time. And yeah, that's yeah, notfor me. And that's exactly part
(04:16):
of the magic that, you know,people experience stuff in their
life that they don't havecontrol over that feels chaotic.
And to actually put those thatthat chaos into the room and be
like, Okay, here it is. And howcan we learn to contain that?
Yeah, and how can maybe theglitter? Glitter is very
specific for people. Yeah, itbrings that bit of magic in
really dark spaces. It bringsthat sense of lightness. I've
(04:39):
had kids really, we put it onour head. Oh, I know before we
started or left as a sense ofprotection. And sometimes people
really say that themselves, it'swe need this specific litter to
protect ourselves, to be safe.
And I just draw with it, yeah,sorry not for it.
Yeah. And.
(05:00):
Absolutely I know Catherine, alot of your support of Taylor in
particular, was in thebereavement side. But one thing
we've started to touch base onin the last couple of episodes
has beenhow Aaron and Angela were able
to support their kids throughthis journey. Aaron, I think we
touched base very quickly lastepisode about When Angela was
(05:22):
diagnosed.
How did you tell the kids? Orwhat did you tell the kids? What
happened there? Yeah, so,so the day that we that we very
first found out that there was athat there was a mess.
It.
There was obviously the initialpart where Angela and I are at
(05:45):
the hospital and, and my, myfirst thought was, okay,
I've, I've got to let the kidsknow, we have to tell the kids.
And, and there wasn't, therewasn't a discussion like, there
was just kind of, you know,this, this thing between the two
of us, where it was like, yeah,that's, that's what has to
happen next. And so that, youknow, there was no kind of, at
(06:10):
the time, there was no kind ofdeep thought that went into it,
you know, around Okay, well,what do I tell them? Why am I
telling them? It was just like,that's just, that's just the
natural step is, is to tellthem, and Angela obviously had
to stay in, not in hospitalovernight. So it was, it was
(06:31):
left, left to me. And,you know, our kids at the time
were 916, and19 at the time, and so
I had to sit them all down inthe lounge. And you know,
they're kind of like, well,what the hell is going on here?
(06:54):
Kind of situation. And at thetime, it was, I'm just going to
tell you what I know,and you know. And all that was
at the time wasthe, you know, they found a mess
in mum's brain and,you know, and, but they're gonna
look after her, she's gonna haveto have some scans and things
(07:14):
like that. And, but my focus wasjust tell them what you know,
you know. And no, at no stagedid I that I think I can't tell
them this, or I can't tell themthat it was they got to know.
And so that was, you know. Sothat was that very first night.
(07:37):
And then,you know, Angela was then going
to, in two weeks, she was goingto have a biopsy, and, and then
two weeks after that, she wasgoing to have a she, we were
going to get those results, andand again, when, when, when that
came around, it was like, Well,again, we they just have to
know. They know that thesethings are they know that these
(07:59):
things are happeningand, you know, and they need to
be in and they need to beincluded. And I remember,
you know, it's kind of the sameas some of the, you know, some
of the stuff around, you know,Angela planning a funeral and
stuff like that. People were,people were kind of taken back.
(08:23):
What do you what do you meanyou've told the children, or,
you know, or what are you goingto tell them? And to us, it was
like we're just going to tellyou everything, and we if we can
tell them the truth? Yeah, Iimagine that would have been
tricky the different ages. Isthere a balance as well around
telling the truth but alsoknowing that their kids, and how
(08:45):
do we protect them? In a sense,what was going through your your
mind?
Yeah, it was just, it was justtell them the truth, like, I
can't, I can't protect them fromthis, you know, like, like, it's
gonna happen and and and they'regonna be a part of it. And,
like, I can't, I can't shieldthings from them. Like, you
(09:06):
know, you know, Dad, why are younot at work today? Well, because
I'm not taking, you know, I'mnot taking mum to the hospital
so she can have brain surgery.
And, you know, like, it's almostlike it it just would become,
for me, it would have justbecome more complicated. And
then the the two weeks afterwith the kids, all knew that we
(09:28):
had an appointment at thehospital and we were going to
get the results of the biopsy.
They all knew when that datewas.
They were all they were waitingat home, and we we just got this
devastating news. So we drivehome in silence. There's there's
no radio, there's no talking,there's nothing. We just drive
home in silence and we and we goinside,
(09:53):
and the kids are all there. Nowwe we go in and we go and we go
to our bedroom.
We just kind of, we're there forprobably half an hour. Maybe
it just to kind of get our headsaround what's going on. And
Taylor, you know, was nine atthe time, came in and said, Why
(10:17):
is dad sad?
I feel like you're not tellingme something,
and I and I want to know what'sgoing on.
I mean, what do you know? Likethe how do you not do anything
else, but, but tell them? Andand again, I was just honest
with her. I said, I said, I'mnot We're not hiding anything
from you. We're just trying toget our our head around what,
(10:41):
what's happened, and we're goingto come and talk to you soon.
Fine, off, you know, off shewent. She was okay with that.
And, and again, we, we sat themall down, and, and we and we
told them, and we said, look,you know, Mum, obviously, mum's
had her surgery, and they've gotthe results back. And, and this
(11:02):
is,this is the outcome, you know,
mum now has, you know,18 months, potentially, you
know, and, but we're going to doeverything that we can. And so
it was delivering that news. Andthen, you know, almost like a,
like, a positivity sandwich,right? Like, here's this really
terrible news, but, but here'ssome positives that we can kind
(11:25):
of do, and that was, you know,we're going to spend lots of
time with mum, and we're goingto make memories, and we're
going to do all of those things.
And,yeah, and they just, they just,
they just took it in this ride,you know, and, and,
and then as things progress, youknow, like a hospital bed, you
(11:45):
know, is now, is now in thelounge, you know. And it's like
if we hadn't done that in thebeginning, how do you then do
that explain, you know, explain,like, now there's a hospital
bed, and why is mum not going towork, and why does mum need a
wheelchair and all of thosekinds of things? And I said,
like, just from the verybeginning, just being completely
(12:07):
honest and upfront with them,and I think that,
I think that just made thembetter prepared for what was
going to happen. Becausenothing, nothing was a surprise,
you know? And so,yeah, like it was, it was a
shock for lots of people, youknow, they just didn't. What do
you mean? You've told the kids?
(12:27):
Well, well, surely you haven'ttold them everything. It's like
they they know everything youknow. And I remember someone
coming to me. I can't remember.
Well, it might have even been,it might have even been Charlie
and and I said, Well, what, youknow, what have you told the
children? I said, Well, toldthem everything. And I said,
(12:49):
like, it's a great thing to do,because
if you don't, you know, like, ifwe like, let's say we just told
the bigger kids, because wethought they were able to handle
it, yeah, and Bobby didn't tellTaylor,
you know, does she potentiallyhave feelings like, Well, I'm
not allowed to know importantthings. So am I actually part of
(13:11):
this family? So now she's kindof got this whole dynamic going
on, right where I'm not part ofthe family, but also my mum's
really sick, I think, you know,and all of this change and stuff
was going on. So, yeah, it's noreal deep thought went into it.
It was just to us. It was theright thing to do. Yeah, and
(13:32):
Kevin, this must be an area thatyou work in, a space that you
work in a lot. I know that weget a lot of inquiries coming
through for parents that aremaybe trying to figure out,
what's your take on this. Isthere a right way to tell the
kids, or what can we and Can'twe tell them? I think there are
(13:53):
certainly right and wrong rightways, but there is a lot of you
know, so much gray in between,and it's amazing that you that
you had that gut instinct,actually, we gotta tell them we,
like you said you can, we can'thide it, yeah, and it often
comes from that space of, I wantto protect the kids, in not
telling them, in trying to, youknow, sugar coat things for a
(14:15):
while, and at the end of theday, it's, it's gonna bite you,
yeah, it, it's not going to workout if you do that. And I think
one of the things you you saidthat before, there are, you
know, there are different ages.
And sometimes with differentages come different
developmental, you know, yeah,things that you have to
consider. And it's a nine yearold and a 16 year old, they're
(14:36):
in very different places. Andyou might go into more details
with the 16 and 19 year olds,because they have the brain
capacity to understand intricatedetails, and with younger ones,
you might be like, okay, here isthe gist of it, but I'll wait
for more questions. I'll takeyour lead. I think that's
something that's reallyimportant. I'll give you.
(15:00):
I'll give you the news. I'lltake your lead. I write the
emotions that arrive. And youwould have seen that that,
yeah, and the reactions weren't,you know, the reactions weren't
what I expected, you know. Andtotally, and obviously, you
know, we have a blended family,so there's that dynamic as well.
Right where the where the twoboys, Angela is their step mom,
(15:21):
and they've grown up with her,but, and then you've got Jamie
and Taylor, that's their mum,you know. And so there was so
there was that side of it aswell. And then I said, you know,
before this happened, if someonehad said, how do you think, you
know, each child will react tothis news, I think, you know, I
would have said, What wouldTaylor? Will Taylor cry? And
(15:44):
Taylor will be the one that getsupset, and the others will kind
of support her. And it wasactually, you know, was actually
the other way around, you know.
And so I think we kind of havethis perception of what we think
is going to happen, but actuallyit was the complete opposite,
you know. And Taylor was the,was the supportive one, and, you
know,and was there to give everyone
(16:06):
cuddles and things like that,whereas I said you would have
thought it was the other wayaround. Yeah. Do you think in
our protective mode as well we,we don't give kids credit
sometimes for the amount thatthey get pick up on and
understand, yeah, yeah. And it'snever coming from a bad place.
It's coming from that protectionand love totally. But I'm sure,
with you not telling Taylor sheshe was already picking up on
(16:31):
what was something's going on,and maybe what's going on in her
head, or what she's starting toruminate on, is completely
different to to the actual Max,totally. And like you said, it
could be that she then feelslike, Oh, I'm not part of this
family, you know, I don'tdeserve to know the big stuff.
Or it could be resentmentfurther down the track, like but
(16:53):
I wanted to make more memorieswith mom. You took that away
from me, or stuff like that. AndI think overall, we live in a
death phobic society, right? Wedon't like to say the D word of
someone who slips away or sleepseternally or whatnot. Say the D
word is a very brave thing. Andthen kids are really kind of
(17:15):
they're too young to know. Andactually they they know that,
they know that that's gonnahappen, then do need to know
it's part of life. Yeah, it'sthe way how we do that, and with
care and love and honesty andthat titrated, gradual stuff,
and I think a bit a big part ofit. And this is, and this is
(17:37):
obviously in hindsight anddidn't have a bearing on why we
told them what we told them, butin hindsight, we had a three
month period,you know, and if we it's
nothing, it's absolutelynothing, right? And so if we
hadn't told them, what,would they have missed out on?
It was hard. You couldn't havehidden it, because Angela was in
(17:58):
our house, and that's where shewanted to be, and that's where
we wanted her to beby telling them we gave them
every opportunity to spend asmuch time as possible, and and
because, and the prime exampleof that is we have a week on,
week off, arrangement with,with, with Jamie, um, Angela's
(18:20):
daughter, My stepdaughter. Andfor the for the first couple of
weeks after Angela wasdiagnosed, she was still, she
was still doing that, and whileand as Angela's kind of
condition deteriorated, Angelawould, would say, Where's Jamie?
Where's Jamie? I say, well,she's, she's not here, my love,
(18:41):
she's, she's at her dad's Okay,where's Jamie, you know, and so,
so, and then Jamie made thedecision herself to go to her
dad and say, Actually, I'm gonnago and stay at Mom's and and she
did it. She stayed there forthe, you know, for pretty much
(19:04):
the whole three month period.
If Jamie hadn't known that, youknow, like I said before, she
wouldn't have been, she wouldn'thave had the information to make
that decision. And, you know,and then also make a pretty
grown up decision to say, Hey,I'm for the next however long
I'm I'm going to go and and livehere.
(19:26):
Yeah, so again, just anotherbenefit of just being completely
honest.
So I'm wondering, as you'regoing through the journey with
Angela, Her condition ischanging. So throughout, I
imagine you're having to keepthe kids up to date with things,
and having to have some probablyquite tough and scary
(19:48):
conversations with them.
Catherine, are there any tips ortools or resources that that you
could that you give people tohelp them through that? I.
Yeah, it's such a hard question,right? Because it feels like I
always talk from that moretheoretical standpoint, and
being in the in the midst of itis, it's so much more messy than
(20:12):
me looking in from the outside.
We could apply a theory Exactly.
So here follow these steps, andit's, it's not as simple as
that, and you did all you could.
And I think there is no perfectway of doing that. I think one
of the things that I do is Isend through a few resources
generally around, what can youtell the kids? How do you speak
(20:32):
to the kids, and how do you pickup on the different way people
grieve? You know it might bedifferent than you expected.
Taylor grieved in her own way.
She she took it up on herself toI protect my heart, yeah, and
I'm there for others. And that'ssomething that you might not
have expected. It's not howgrief looks like. Well, that's
(20:53):
my next question is, what is youknow for kids? How do we know
that they're coping okay?
Because they're going to responddifferently totally, and I
think, and you know, the thingsto look out for are really the
extremes. Do they completelylose interest in anything that
they had interest in before?
Does their mood really plummetto a point that I'm getting
(21:14):
really nervous about them? Arethey riddled with anxiety and
have nightmares all the time,are they becoming really clingy
or very avoidant? Are theybecoming really angry? Is their
behavior regressing? So it's, Ithink we're looking more for the
extremes, because knowing thatsomeone they love so dearly is
going to die and not going to bethere anymore, can cause, you
(21:36):
know, some separation anxiety.
It can cause people to be like,Oh, I'm not coping with the
world, because it is literallyshattering. So it's the real
extreme stuff. And that was, andthat was, obviously the kids are
at different ages, but yeah, theyou know, one is kind of moving
in from, you know, from a childto kind of pre teen, yeah,
(21:56):
others kind of moving intoadulthood and and the other two
kind of stuck right in themiddle of of teenagers. So
someone says, you know, someonesays to you, what, how are the
kids? Which I don't, I don'tknow how they are at the best of
times, you know what I mean,because they're, because they're
teenagers, because they're, youknow, because they're pre teen,
or, you know, and all of thatkind of stuff. So and, like, I
(22:17):
think they're okay, like, Yeah,but, you know, do I base it on?
Oh, they're a bit moody today.
They're moody anyway, you knowwho, you know, and all those
fluctuations. So, yeah, I thinkthat was what I looked for as
well. Was okay. Is thereanything extreme happening, you
know? And thankfully, the,thankfully, the there wasn't.
(22:40):
But, yeah, you're right. It's sohard to it's so hard to judge,
you know, what's normal behaviorand what you know, and how are
they coping? Because I say tothe kids now, how was school
good? Yeah, what'd you do?
Nothing, you know. And it'slike, okay, well, thanks. Thanks
for that overwhelming response.
And it's, you know, and I wouldsay to I would say to them,
(23:03):
especially in the weeks after,you know, how are you? Are you?
Are you okay? And, you know,yep,
okay. Like, I Yeah, what do you?
What do you do with that? Butyeah, I think you're looking for
those extremes. Is, is reallyimportant. Yes, I can imagine
the worry, you know they're nottalking to me. Well, they're
teenagers. They do to me. It's,and even, and even, you know, we
(23:25):
it's, it's been over a year andstuff, and it's, and it's still
like, Okay, well, how are wedoing? What are we, you know,
are we? Are we okay with this?
And,yeah, it's an everyday thing.
And thankfully, you know, touchwood, there's still, you know, I
(23:45):
think, I think we're okay, butyeah, you just, you never know
what's the impact on you andAngela.
Because I imagine you're worriedabout Angela and caring for her
and supporting her. But the twoof you must also be have the
(24:06):
kids in your mind,I think, and and whether this
was what they did or not, Iguess I'll never know, but they,
they just, they just got on withit, you know, like, in that
initial period, they were stillgoing to school, and, you know,
(24:29):
we had people coming to dropthem off and and things like
that. But they just, they justgot on with it, you know, and,
and they're really good kidsanyway, when it comes to helping
around the house and things likethat. So, like, you know, they
do the dishes and stuff afterschool, and, you know, sorry
after dinner. And they, andthey, you know, they do
housework and stuff like that.
And so they just, they just goton with it, you know, and, and I
(24:51):
think, you know, without,without asking them, they.
They were just like they almostjust took on these roles of at
the moment, we've got to, we'vegot to look after them, you
know. And Dad's looking aftermum and, you know. And Mum needs
(25:13):
all the help and support thatshe can get. So whatever we can
do is, is what we're going todo. And so you almost, you
always didn't worry about them,you know, they just, they just
kept going and I, and I thinkagain, because they knew
everything, you know,we haven't, we haven't touched
(25:33):
on it before, butAngela, Angela didn't want us to
see her suffer. So she shewanted to go through the
assisted dying process.
The kids knew about that, youknow, that they you know. We sat
them down again and we said,hey, this is what mum's decided,
(25:57):
you know. And this is what thatmeans. And
so, you know, like, and youknow, do you have any questions
about that and and all of thatkind of stuff, like, nothing was
was hidden from them, you know.
And ultimately,you know, she didn't, she didn't
go through with the assisteddiet process. But they, but
(26:17):
they, but they knew everythingyou know and
and when it you know when. Sowhen it came time to for when it
came time for Angela passingaway, like, I think,
potentially, that lessened thethat that blow you know, of
(26:40):
you know, it wasn't, it wasn't asurprise, you know, it was okay.
That's what we expected. Becausewe've known all the way along
that this is what was going tohappen, you know. And we, you
know, one of the last times wewent to the oncologist and he
said, I'm really sorry, guys,it's, it's probably six months.
(27:01):
Now, it's not 18 months.
Guys that, you know, this isthe, this is the bad news, you
know. And you know, it's notwhat we wanted. But this is, you
know, this is what's happening,you know. And so they were,
again, they were just part of itthe whole way, yeah, Catherine,
there must be situations you'vebeen in where it's not quite so
(27:23):
open.
How do you navigate that in yourrole?
I think for me, it's it's, well,look at the end of the day, what
I sometimes think, as aprofessional, certainly as a
person myself, is it's not asimportant as where the family is
at. So if a family decides, forwhatever reason, we are not in a
(27:45):
position where we want to voicethat this is about life and
death here and how the story isgoing to unfold, it's not my
it's not my role to say you arewrong in doing this. I will roll
with that.
I might speak to. You know,what else can you say when
someone you know, when theydeteriorate, and when are you
(28:07):
ready to tell them? I haven'tfully had that conversation yet.
That hasn't really I've had thatwith adults, but not when there
were children involved. But itis complicated, because, like
you said, at some point youcannot hide it anymore. Yeah,
and then what anymore? Butsometimes people, you know in
I'm thinking about Asiancultures, or some cultures you
(28:28):
just you don't talk about death,it is within their cultural
framing to to not name that, toto protect people from that. And
I know that I have my ownframing and my own ideas around
that. But at the end of the day,I have to respect what, how
people, you know, live theirlife and enroll with that,
enroll with theirs. You cantotally and I'm also thinking,
(28:51):
as you talked about, you know,they got on with it. They they
did this stuff at home. I thinkthat's something that is really
important. Like their world isfalling apart, they will find
themselves in a world that theynever anticipated. And to keep
some sort of routine going, themore routine you can keep going.
That sense of normalcy is reallyimportant, and that can
(29:12):
sometimes be like, what do wetell the schools? What do we
tell their friends? Andsometimes it's like, actually,
let's keep that for now, becauseI want to go to school and feel
like I'm just me. Nobody knows.
Nobody looks at me as that kid.
Yeah? And for others, it's like,oh, it's really important for me
that teachers or my class knowsso but it feels like they had
(29:33):
that sense of normalcy. Theywere still going to school.
Yeah, there is still dishes.
Thank you very much. Yeah, youknow that that can feel like,
ah, the house is still stableenough. It something is still
holding me enough, in yourthroat that's falling apart,
yeah, and it's and, and, like, Iremember when I was 11, and my
(29:56):
and my grandmother passed away.
Me too and wouldn't but.
No one talked about it, yeah,you know, like, and, yeah. And
it wasn't a cultural thing oranything like that. And, but it
was just to your point earlier,you don't talk about, you don't
talk about death and stuff likethat. And I remember, and maybe,
maybe this is why I ended uptelling them. But I remember we
got, we got shipped off, youknow, we got shipped off to my
(30:20):
mum's friend's house for twoweeks. You know, we were like,
Why are we here? Do you knowwhat I mean? And they don't
understand, yeah, and I think,and then we, we got taken to the
hospital to why are we going tothe hospital? Oh, we're going to
see Grandma. Why is grandma inthe hospital? And then going to
going to see her. And this wasthe first person I'd ever you
(30:40):
know, had had passed away, andI walk into a hotel, hotel,
hospital room, sorry. And, youknow, and my, my grandmother,
doesn't have any here, and I'mlike, hang on a minute. I found
out you're in hospital 20minutes ago, and now you don't
have any here. And that's that'salways sat with me, and then,
and then we never saw her again,because we were, you know, it
(31:03):
was, we were shipped off, and,you know, and that will, you
know, that that will alwaysstick with me. So, so we missed
out on those, you know, on thosemoments Angela being sick was,
was over Christmas, and thingslike that. So it made, you know,
what moments we did get. It madethem special, and it made you
(31:24):
appreciate them more. And Ithink, you know, from the kids
side of things as well, becausethey just knew, you know,
yeah. And, like you said, it'seach their own of these culture
things, yeah and stuff likethat. But you know, I, when I
look back, I just think we, wejust made the right choice, you
(31:46):
know, to just tell them anythingand everything. And I think,
you know, and that carried onafter she, after she passed
away, and you know, we,we had, you know, we had Angela
at home and things like that.
And, like I said, it justlistened the blow, you know,
(32:09):
that it didn't, it didn't makethem, you know, any easier. I
guess it's just, you know, itjust lessened that impact of,
yeah, well, what the hell justhappened? Yeah, yeah. They were
involved. They were they wereallowed to be a part of it,
yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And part of that is, I thinkalso making memories. Like you
(32:30):
said, you know, I miss out onthose moments with grandma. I
would have loved to make somememories with you, but I can't,
and I've done some of that inthe past, I remember one session
where we sat around the kitchentable, 10 of us, and the
granddad, in that case was, youknow, the one with the terminal
diagnosis, and they were all thegrandchildren and some adults.
(32:52):
And we made canvases togetherand talked about the there's a
beautiful book the invisiblestring, that I often recommend,
you know, the invisible stringthat will still be there even
once he's died. And it wasreally special to have that time
of sitting together and ormaking hand prints and putting
(33:13):
them on canvases. And the youngperson can go back to, ah, there
is grandmas, moms, dads,whatever, handprint still there,
you know, to to make memorieslike that. Yeah, and I think,
and I thinkthis, we've got loads of nieces
and nephews and, you know, no, Idon't think they were told as
(33:36):
much detail, but, but they stillknew that only Angela sick. Now,
Angela adores all of them like,you know, for the first
Christmas after she passed away,I was like, I'm gonna get them
something I'm gonna, you know,to that they can keep. And so I
(34:00):
thought, I'm going to get themall, a photo of Angela with them
by themselves. I don't have tolook very far. There was just
all of these photos of her withwith every single niece and
nephew. There's, I'm pretty surethere's, like 14 or 15 of them
and but there's, there's a photoof them, and you can just see in
these photos, how muchshe loves them and how much they
(34:23):
love her,but you know, they would, they
would come over and they would,you know, and they would give
her, they would give her hugs,and you know she's in a hospital
bed, and you know, and and she'snot, you know, She's obviously
not the auntie angel that theyknow. And so, again, you know,
some of them are a lot younger,so they, you know, there wasn't
(34:46):
great detail, I'm sure, but theywere still aware of what was,
you know, what was going on. Itwasn't, it wasn't hidden from
them either. Yeah, the otherquestion I have, I hear a lot
around.
But you know, if we're going tobe open and honest with the
kids, the terminology that weuse, yeah, because we do tend to
(35:07):
maybe soften things for kids,mum's gone somewhere else, mum's
asleep. What's your thoughts onthat? Oh, I I get very icky
around the term of sleep, yeah,a lot of people still say that.
And it can come, you know, withwith a real risk that kids, at
(35:28):
the extreme end, then feel like,Oh, what if I go to sleep? Am I
never gonna wake up again? Or,what if you go to sleep? Yeah,
you're not gonna wake up again.
So you kind of have to stay witha as hard as it is use the
correct terminology at a childappropriate level, yeah, death,
they understand. They've alwaysseen an animal die outside
somewhere. They've they've seendead animals or plants die,
(35:52):
things die,but explaining what is happening
medically, I think thatterminology, you have to be
careful to not make it toocomplicated. But you know that
invitation, let's say thatsomeone's died, yeah, that there
is a death, that there is afuneral, a celebration of life,
and to normalize that stuff,yeah, I think that's really
(36:14):
important. Yeah. I liked youryour reflection earlier around
inviting them to ask questionstoo, all the time so you can
short answers. Yeah, wait, yeah,answer. Wait, it's not one
conversation. It's, it's, as youwould know, it's, it's a series
of conversations, as theyprocess, as they make sense of
what's going on. Yeah? Is thatsomething that happened? I'm
(36:38):
gonna guess, maybe more withTaylor.
Noagain, like she just, she just
kind of got on with it, and shejust, you know, she just kind of
almost just accepted what wewere, what we were saying to her
and and, you know, in terms ofterminology, you know, we
weren't using terms likeglioblastoma and stuff like
(37:00):
that, you know. But you know, itwas finding that balance between
using terms that she canunderstand without, you know,
without babying it down, or onthe on the flip side of that,
over complicating it and say,Well, do you know what a
glioblastoma is, and, you know,and all that kind of stuff at
that, you know, it was, it wasjust kept really simple, and,
(37:28):
you know, and at the end, Iwould just say, you know, has
anyone got any questions? And,you know, and you know, so they
were kind of, you know, okay,well, what will happen next kind
of thing and, and stuff likethat. But because we just kept
it really simple, because Ididn't understand it, you know,
like, up until she gotdiagnosed, I didn't know what a
(37:49):
glioblastoma was,you know, so I had to keep it
simple for myself as well. Itwas just kept really
straightforward. And,you know, if they did have any
questions, and again, it'sasking. They don't like to, it's
not cool to put your hand up atschool or anything like that,
right? So it was kind of, Havewe got any questions? Generally,
it was, you know, unless it wasa really obvious one, like,
(38:10):
Okay, well, what happens next?
But, you know, there would beother times where, you know,
they might just come along andbe like, hey, what? What is?
What is that for? You know, whyis this happening, or whatever?
So, yeah, and it's so hard, hey,because you just finding out,
you're trying to understand it.
You're writing your ownemotions. You've never walked
this journey before, and thenyou're trying to, how do I
(38:34):
explain that to the kids? Yeah,it's so hard, because it's not
like, Oh, you can just bracketyourself and you're still in it.
And it was the same, like,throughout the whole throughout
the whole journey. And that'swhy, like, when we would have,
like, when we had our firstmeeting with hospice, it was
four people there, you know,include about, you know, plus
(38:54):
Angela and and that kind ofhappened every time we had an
interaction with someone else,or a doctor or whatever,
because,I because you're being told this
kind of, you're being told thisinformation that you know, and
it's pretty traumatic at thetime, you don't take it all in.
You take you take bits you know,and then, and the good thing
(39:15):
was, is that when we had, we hada kind of group of people, and
we would all take bits and putall those bits together, you
kind of got the whole story atthe end. Because it is just,
yeah, it's, it's overwhelming.
And yeah, I think,you know, I remember going when
we got given the diagnosis bythe brain surgeon
(39:42):
that was given to us intechnical terms, you know. And
it was like, hang on a minute.
What is that talking about, youknow? And then it's like, oh,
okay, this and so, yeah, it wasvery conscious of that, talking
to the kids,keeping it simple, you.
But also making sure that youknow it's actually meaningful,
(40:04):
for lack of a better term, yeah,yeah, yeah. What about showing
emotions? Because there musthave been times Aaron, where you
were really feeling it foryourself. Is it okay to show
those emotions, or do we need tobe the strong parent that holds
everything together?
(40:26):
That's, yeah, look, IIt's, that's, that's a hard one,
because on one point, I'm like,100% you, you know, like, I
wanted them to know that it wasthat it was okay for them to
cry, and it was okay for them tobe upset.
But I would go to my bedroom,and I would shut the door, and I
(40:49):
would and I would cry, and then,and then I would come out. But
the thing was, every time I cameout of the door, guess who was
waiting for me? Taylor. Taylorwas there every time. And then,
you know, almost by default,became this, like,
Dad's gone to his bedroom andshut the door. He's gonna, he's
(41:10):
gonna need me in a minute. Soshe would, you know, she would
just come up and she would waitby the door. And, yeah, but
so I, you know, like it wasn't acase. I didn't want to hide it
from them, but it was like, Iactually just need a minute, you
know, you're Yeah, yeah. Andit's not like, I wouldn't then
(41:31):
come out of the room and belike, right, okay, well, I
don't, well, you know, and tryand carry on the, you know, the
day, like it was obvious that I,you know, that I was upset. And
I think there was at firstChristmas Jamie.
Jamie got Taylor, and I gave theTaylor, and I these teddy bears.
(41:55):
And I was like, oh, it's weird.
That's nice. Okay, he got us ateddy bear
and and then she said, press it.
Oh, gosh, so I press my teddybear. Oh,
and the teddy bear is Angela'svoice,
(42:18):
telling, like saying, I loveyou.
That was it like no time tothis? No, I'm not kind of the
bedroom, like just, you know,and there was, and then Taylor
presses her one, and her onesays, Taylor, I love you.
I don't know anyone that'sholding up to that, you know, I
(42:39):
don't care who you are. And, youknow, like, again, I wasn't
gonna hide that, Deb. And thenthere was lots around that,
right? It was like, That is themost amazing, thoughtful gift
ever that's come from a 17 yearold girl. And, you know,
traditionally, teenagers don'tthink about anybody but
(43:01):
themselves. And she's gone andshe's she hasn't, she hasn't
just bought these beers and putthe recording in. She has gone
and got all the individual bits,and she's un sewed the back of
the beer, and she's put thevoice thing in it, and she's
done put all of this effort intothese, into these things and and
like, it was just like, this isthe most amazing thing, you
(43:24):
know. So,yeah, it wasn't a case of hiding
it. It was, you know, sometimesyou just, actually just need a
minute. But yeah, 100% and youknow, the textbooks says that
you should, it's good if youshow your emotions, but please
don't show too much of youremotions. So it's like, but how
do you do that in reality? So itis good to show, hey, I need a
(43:45):
minute, and I can have that infront of you. Like, it's okay to
see your dad is also having acry and ah, so it might be okay
to cry, and at the same time,they can then become really
protective of their own, like,Oh, if that goes too far, are
you enough to hold my emotions?
And then they can reallywithdraw. And sometimes it's
(44:08):
easier for them to talk tosomeone else be it doesn't have
to be a therapist. It can besomeone else in the family or
another adult that they can goto when they feel like, oh,
you're a pretender at themoment, I have someone else. So
it's, again, it's such atightrope balance, and it's
really, and that's reallyinteresting that you touch on
that, because that was a reallybig thing for me, because,
(44:29):
because I was, you know, becauseI was so emotional. I what I
didn't want was the kids to thenbe like, well, we can't say
anything, and we can't doanything. What does we don't
want dad to get upset and, youknow, and all that kind of
stuff, and then them suppresstheir feelings, you know? And,
(44:50):
yeah, you know. So you had to bevery, very mindful of that. So,
you know, it's that findingthat, trying to find a balance
possible, yeah, 100% and then.
The flip side of that is, youknow, and there was a couple of
times where, you know, I wouldfind Taylor in her room and she
would be crying, I'm not, I'mnot not crying, if she's crying,
you know what I mean. And sothen she's like, Oh, I cried.
(45:13):
And he cried again. I don'treally want him to cry. And
it's, you know, it just becamethis, like, this whole complex
thing. It was like, Oh, what dowe do here? Yeah, is it
recognizing as well their kids,they're facing that they're
about to lose their mum? Yeah,it's a crap time, you know, and
(45:35):
let's acknowledge that and nottry to sweep it under or make it
okay, because it's it's notokay. It's not okay. And you can
find these joyful, beautiful,treasured moments in this awful
period, but at the end of theday, it's okay to have your
moments. And for you, Aaron,maybe the kids are learning
that. You knowhe's emotional, but he's this is
(45:56):
his way of managing. Goes to hisroom, and he comes out, and
that's okay as well. Andwhatever my way is of dealing
with it is okay as well. Andit's not an awful period, right?
Yeah, it's awful full stop. Andespecially for kids, as they
grow older, they finish school,they get into serious
relationships, they might becomea parent themselves. They
(46:19):
graduate from uni or whatnot. Soall these milestones, it
where's mom? So it is. It's anongoing journey. It's not just
an episode or an IT.
It's awful and it's crap. You doa little bit of work around sort
of legacy. Is that somethingthat maybe can can can help with
(46:41):
that, totally, totally likestuff like recording voice,
having, having, writing letters.
I've supported parents. Iremember one parent who was also
someone with a global stowa inher 20s writing letters for her
young, young son because shewasn't able to do the writing as
much anymore canvases or othercreative things, memory boxes.
(47:03):
It's a really beautiful way ofdoing that together, or
afterwards, to come together asa family as you are now. Yeah,
yeah. And, and I think carryingon from that like Angela is.
Angela is, is is everywhere inour in our house, awesome. We
have, we have photos of herabove, above her chair where she
(47:26):
sits. And Taylor has photos ofher on, on the on her wall in
her room, Jamie went outherself, and Jamie has one side
of her room is just all of thesephotos of Angela all framed, all
put on proper frames. And so,you know, Angela's Ashes are in
a woven basket, and that's therein the lounge and, you know. And
(47:50):
so she's everywhere, yeah, andTaylor and I have every night
since Angela passed away, andwhen she goes to school, we have
a thing where we don't saygoodbye anymore. We say, See you
later, and so and so, when Ituck when I tuck her in at
night, say, love you, goodnight, see you later. And then
(48:13):
she says, love you, good night,see you later, Mama.
And we,we blow kisses to Angela's
photos, lovely, you know. Andthat if we don't do that, oh
boy, you know, like if I get introuble for that every morning,
you know the you have to, youhave to say it then, oh, sorry,
yep, no, you're right, you know.
(48:35):
And so, so she, she iseverywhere, and we, you know.
And, and while she's not herephysically, it's definitely
here, you know, emotionally. Andwe don't know what lies beyond
anyway, right? We don't know.
And it's so beautiful to do, youknow, continue the relationship
in that way. Yeah, and one ofand touching on that, one of
the, one of the really, reallylovely things is, you know, the
(48:58):
the nieces and nephews, theythey all have their own little
story about where, where, auntyAndrews, you know. And so, as
scarlet, who is, who is for it,Arnie Andrew is the one that
brings the moon up, you know.
And so they go out and, youknow, and they'll see the moon,
honey. And just bought them,yeah, and, you know. And you
(49:20):
know, and they've all got theirown little story about, you
know, where is only ant now,that's really nice. Yeah, I
think we'll wrap it up there.
Catherine, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Your insight has been so, sohelpful. I'm sure that this is a
very common issueand questions, these questions
(49:41):
must come up so much we arelooking at how we can support
our children through these kindof circumstances. Join us next
episode where we talk about thefuture on Angela's terms. Thanks
for joining us. You.
On October 17, 2023 the bright more family's world
was turned upside down when atthe age of just 44 a tumor was
found in Angela's brain.
One month later, they wereintroduced to the world that is
hospice. This is Angela's story,walking the final path together
a hospice West Auckland podcast.
(00:28):
Hello and welcome to episodethree. In the last episode, we
spoke with Charlie, who wasAngela's primary nurse, and we
learned about the firstadmission for Angela two
hospice. And today, we haveanother special guest from the
team. We're joined by Catherine,who's our creative arts
therapist. Welcome Catherine,thanks for joining us. Hello.
Good to be here. Tell me beforewe crack into things, what is
(00:53):
the role? What does a creativearts therapist do? All sorts of
things, and I think it is one ofthose roles that is just a
little bit nebulous for people.
I do various things in my roleoverall. Maybe an easy way to
explain it is that a creativearts therapist lives in the
realm of counseling andpsychotherapy. So some of that
work that a counselor orpsychotherapist would do, and I
(01:14):
bring in a lot of creativeexpression, could be painting,
movement, sand tray, all sortsof things. And it can be a way
of, kind of exploring what ishappening for a person, kind of
that deeper work. And it canalso be a place to just have
fun, a little bit of lightness,and play with the art materials
and let them do their magicalsomething. So it's, it's kind of
(01:39):
a big umbrella of offerings thatI have, yeah, and I'm guessing
it's, you don't have to be goodat art to do arts therapy. Not
at all. It is primarily aboutthe process of just playing with
the materials, seeing whatarrives. It's not so much about
the product. Can be importantwhat sits in front of us at the
(02:01):
end. But you don't have to begood at it. I'm not good at art.
So it's really, it's hopefullyquite non threatening for
people. And I can imagine usingthe creative mediums and the non
threatening approach means thatthe work is quite good with
children, which is why we've gotyou here today. Yeah, it's, it's
actually good with any age. Butyeah, I do also I love working
(02:24):
with little people and goinginto those playful spaces with
them, and speaking theirlanguage, creativity, art,
making, play, that's theirlanguage, and meeting them where
they're at absolutely and so,Aaron, I know that you, your
family, had a little bit ofinput from Catherine. We did in
your journey, particularly withwith young Taylor, yep, yep. So
(02:46):
about the same time that that Istarted coming to auspice forum
for counseling. Taylor camealong too, and got to meet, got
to meet Catherine. Taylor is aTaylor loves that, you know, the
arts and crafts kinds of thingsas well. So it was really good,
good for her.
(03:10):
The only downside was that shewould come out covered in
glitter. Taylor loves glitterand and Catherine was a big fan
of encouraging her love forglitter so that the drive home,
you know, would involve, once wegot home, would involve
vacuuming the car, and Taylorand 10 and Taylor, but yeah,
she, she really, really enjoyedit. And did lots of, you know,
(03:34):
lots of fun things that she,that she really enjoyed. So,
yeah, it's cool.
I remember going into a few ofinto your room, Catherine, after
you've had some sessions, andit's, it starts off so nice with
all of the creative supplies.
And I just love it, because yougo in and it's, there's
everything there for you to pickand choose from. And after a
session, when you go in,sometimes it's just chaos and
(03:55):
their hate, yeah, it goesagainst everything for, like, I
would literally come outcovering covered in glitter, and
like you say, like, the roomwould just be chaos, and I'd be
like, This is not for me at all.
Like, there's no organizationhere, but Taylor's had a great
time. And yeah, that's yeah, notfor me. And that's exactly part
(04:16):
of the magic that, you know,people experience stuff in their
life that they don't havecontrol over that feels chaotic.
And to actually put those thatthat chaos into the room and be
like, Okay, here it is. And howcan we learn to contain that?
Yeah, and how can maybe theglitter? Glitter is very
specific for people. Yeah, itbrings that bit of magic in
really dark spaces. It bringsthat sense of lightness. I've
(04:39):
had kids really, we put it onour head. Oh, I know before we
started or left as a sense ofprotection. And sometimes people
really say that themselves, it'swe need this specific litter to
protect ourselves, to be safe.
And I just draw with it, yeah,sorry not for it.
Yeah. And.
(05:00):
Absolutely I know Catherine, alot of your support of Taylor in
particular, was in thebereavement side. But one thing
we've started to touch base onin the last couple of episodes
has beenhow Aaron and Angela were able
to support their kids throughthis journey. Aaron, I think we
touched base very quickly lastepisode about When Angela was
(05:22):
diagnosed.
How did you tell the kids? Orwhat did you tell the kids? What
happened there? Yeah, so,so the day that we that we very
first found out that there was athat there was a mess.
It.
There was obviously the initialpart where Angela and I are at
(05:45):
the hospital and, and my, myfirst thought was, okay,
I've, I've got to let the kidsknow, we have to tell the kids.
And, and there wasn't, therewasn't a discussion like, there
was just kind of, you know,this, this thing between the two
of us, where it was like, yeah,that's, that's what has to
happen next. And so that, youknow, there was no kind of, at
(06:10):
the time, there was no kind ofdeep thought that went into it,
you know, around Okay, well,what do I tell them? Why am I
telling them? It was just like,that's just, that's just the
natural step is, is to tellthem, and Angela obviously had
to stay in, not in hospitalovernight. So it was, it was
(06:31):
left, left to me. And,you know, our kids at the time
were 916, and19 at the time, and so
I had to sit them all down inthe lounge. And you know,
they're kind of like, well,what the hell is going on here?
(06:54):
Kind of situation. And at thetime, it was, I'm just going to
tell you what I know,and you know. And all that was
at the time wasthe, you know, they found a mess
in mum's brain and,you know, and, but they're gonna
look after her, she's gonna haveto have some scans and things
(07:14):
like that. And, but my focus wasjust tell them what you know,
you know. And no, at no stagedid I that I think I can't tell
them this, or I can't tell themthat it was they got to know.
And so that was, you know. Sothat was that very first night.
(07:37):
And then,you know, Angela was then going
to, in two weeks, she was goingto have a biopsy, and, and then
two weeks after that, she wasgoing to have a she, we were
going to get those results, andand again, when, when, when that
came around, it was like, Well,again, we they just have to
know. They know that thesethings are they know that these
(07:59):
things are happeningand, you know, and they need to
be in and they need to beincluded. And I remember,
you know, it's kind of the sameas some of the, you know, some
of the stuff around, you know,Angela planning a funeral and
stuff like that. People were,people were kind of taken back.
(08:23):
What do you what do you meanyou've told the children, or,
you know, or what are you goingto tell them? And to us, it was
like we're just going to tellyou everything, and we if we can
tell them the truth? Yeah, Iimagine that would have been
tricky the different ages. Isthere a balance as well around
telling the truth but alsoknowing that their kids, and how
(08:45):
do we protect them? In a sense,what was going through your your
mind?
Yeah, it was just, it was justtell them the truth, like, I
can't, I can't protect them fromthis, you know, like, like, it's
gonna happen and and and they'regonna be a part of it. And,
like, I can't, I can't shieldthings from them. Like, you
(09:06):
know, you know, Dad, why are younot at work today? Well, because
I'm not taking, you know, I'mnot taking mum to the hospital
so she can have brain surgery.
And, you know, like, it's almostlike it it just would become,
for me, it would have justbecome more complicated. And
then the the two weeks afterwith the kids, all knew that we
(09:28):
had an appointment at thehospital and we were going to
get the results of the biopsy.
They all knew when that datewas.
They were all they were waitingat home, and we we just got this
devastating news. So we drivehome in silence. There's there's
no radio, there's no talking,there's nothing. We just drive
home in silence and we and we goinside,
(09:53):
and the kids are all there. Nowwe we go in and we go and we go
to our bedroom.
We just kind of, we're there forprobably half an hour. Maybe
it just to kind of get our headsaround what's going on. And
Taylor, you know, was nine atthe time, came in and said, Why
(10:17):
is dad sad?
I feel like you're not tellingme something,
and I and I want to know what'sgoing on.
I mean, what do you know? Likethe how do you not do anything
else, but, but tell them? Andand again, I was just honest
with her. I said, I said, I'mnot We're not hiding anything
from you. We're just trying toget our our head around what,
(10:41):
what's happened, and we're goingto come and talk to you soon.
Fine, off, you know, off shewent. She was okay with that.
And, and again, we, we sat themall down, and, and we and we
told them, and we said, look,you know, Mum, obviously, mum's
had her surgery, and they've gotthe results back. And, and this
(11:02):
is,this is the outcome, you know,
mum now has, you know,18 months, potentially, you
know, and, but we're going to doeverything that we can. And so
it was delivering that news. Andthen, you know, almost like a,
like, a positivity sandwich,right? Like, here's this really
terrible news, but, but here'ssome positives that we can kind
(11:25):
of do, and that was, you know,we're going to spend lots of
time with mum, and we're goingto make memories, and we're
going to do all of those things.
And,yeah, and they just, they just,
they just took it in this ride,you know, and, and,
and then as things progress, youknow, like a hospital bed, you
(11:45):
know, is now, is now in thelounge, you know. And it's like
if we hadn't done that in thebeginning, how do you then do
that explain, you know, explain,like, now there's a hospital
bed, and why is mum not going towork, and why does mum need a
wheelchair and all of thosekinds of things? And I said,
like, just from the verybeginning, just being completely
(12:07):
honest and upfront with them,and I think that,
I think that just made thembetter prepared for what was
going to happen. Becausenothing, nothing was a surprise,
you know? And so,yeah, like it was, it was a
shock for lots of people, youknow, they just didn't. What do
you mean? You've told the kids?
(12:27):
Well, well, surely you haven'ttold them everything. It's like
they they know everything youknow. And I remember someone
coming to me. I can't remember.
Well, it might have even been,it might have even been Charlie
and and I said, Well, what, youknow, what have you told the
children? I said, Well, toldthem everything. And I said,
(12:49):
like, it's a great thing to do,because
if you don't, you know, like, ifwe like, let's say we just told
the bigger kids, because wethought they were able to handle
it, yeah, and Bobby didn't tellTaylor,
you know, does she potentiallyhave feelings like, Well, I'm
not allowed to know importantthings. So am I actually part of
(13:11):
this family? So now she's kindof got this whole dynamic going
on, right where I'm not part ofthe family, but also my mum's
really sick, I think, you know,and all of this change and stuff
was going on. So, yeah, it's noreal deep thought went into it.
It was just to us. It was theright thing to do. Yeah, and
(13:32):
Kevin, this must be an area thatyou work in, a space that you
work in a lot. I know that weget a lot of inquiries coming
through for parents that aremaybe trying to figure out,
what's your take on this. Isthere a right way to tell the
kids, or what can we and Can'twe tell them? I think there are
(13:53):
certainly right and wrong rightways, but there is a lot of you
know, so much gray in between,and it's amazing that you that
you had that gut instinct,actually, we gotta tell them we,
like you said you can, we can'thide it, yeah, and it often
comes from that space of, I wantto protect the kids, in not
telling them, in trying to, youknow, sugar coat things for a
(14:15):
while, and at the end of theday, it's, it's gonna bite you,
yeah, it, it's not going to workout if you do that. And I think
one of the things you you saidthat before, there are, you
know, there are different ages.
And sometimes with differentages come different
developmental, you know, yeah,things that you have to
consider. And it's a nine yearold and a 16 year old, they're
(14:36):
in very different places. Andyou might go into more details
with the 16 and 19 year olds,because they have the brain
capacity to understand intricatedetails, and with younger ones,
you might be like, okay, here isthe gist of it, but I'll wait
for more questions. I'll takeyour lead. I think that's
something that's reallyimportant. I'll give you.
(15:00):
I'll give you the news. I'lltake your lead. I write the
emotions that arrive. And youwould have seen that that,
yeah, and the reactions weren't,you know, the reactions weren't
what I expected, you know. Andtotally, and obviously, you
know, we have a blended family,so there's that dynamic as well.
Right where the where the twoboys, Angela is their step mom,
(15:21):
and they've grown up with her,but, and then you've got Jamie
and Taylor, that's their mum,you know. And so there was so
there was that side of it aswell. And then I said, you know,
before this happened, if someonehad said, how do you think, you
know, each child will react tothis news, I think, you know, I
would have said, What wouldTaylor? Will Taylor cry? And
(15:44):
Taylor will be the one that getsupset, and the others will kind
of support her. And it wasactually, you know, was actually
the other way around, you know.
And so I think we kind of havethis perception of what we think
is going to happen, but actuallyit was the complete opposite,
you know. And Taylor was the,was the supportive one, and, you
know,and was there to give everyone
(16:06):
cuddles and things like that,whereas I said you would have
thought it was the other wayaround. Yeah. Do you think in
our protective mode as well we,we don't give kids credit
sometimes for the amount thatthey get pick up on and
understand, yeah, yeah. And it'snever coming from a bad place.
It's coming from that protectionand love totally. But I'm sure,
with you not telling Taylor sheshe was already picking up on
(16:31):
what was something's going on,and maybe what's going on in her
head, or what she's starting toruminate on, is completely
different to to the actual Max,totally. And like you said, it
could be that she then feelslike, Oh, I'm not part of this
family, you know, I don'tdeserve to know the big stuff.
Or it could be resentmentfurther down the track, like but
(16:53):
I wanted to make more memorieswith mom. You took that away
from me, or stuff like that. AndI think overall, we live in a
death phobic society, right? Wedon't like to say the D word of
someone who slips away or sleepseternally or whatnot. Say the D
word is a very brave thing. Andthen kids are really kind of
(17:15):
they're too young to know. Andactually they they know that,
they know that that's gonnahappen, then do need to know
it's part of life. Yeah, it'sthe way how we do that, and with
care and love and honesty andthat titrated, gradual stuff,
and I think a bit a big part ofit. And this is, and this is
(17:37):
obviously in hindsight anddidn't have a bearing on why we
told them what we told them, butin hindsight, we had a three
month period,you know, and if we it's
nothing, it's absolutelynothing, right? And so if we
hadn't told them, what,would they have missed out on?
It was hard. You couldn't havehidden it, because Angela was in
(17:58):
our house, and that's where shewanted to be, and that's where
we wanted her to beby telling them we gave them
every opportunity to spend asmuch time as possible, and and
because, and the prime exampleof that is we have a week on,
week off, arrangement with,with, with Jamie, um, Angela's
(18:20):
daughter, My stepdaughter. Andfor the for the first couple of
weeks after Angela wasdiagnosed, she was still, she
was still doing that, and whileand as Angela's kind of
condition deteriorated, Angelawould, would say, Where's Jamie?
Where's Jamie? I say, well,she's, she's not here, my love,
(18:41):
she's, she's at her dad's Okay,where's Jamie, you know, and so,
so, and then Jamie made thedecision herself to go to her
dad and say, Actually, I'm gonnago and stay at Mom's and and she
did it. She stayed there forthe, you know, for pretty much
(19:04):
the whole three month period.
If Jamie hadn't known that, youknow, like I said before, she
wouldn't have been, she wouldn'thave had the information to make
that decision. And, you know,and then also make a pretty
grown up decision to say, Hey,I'm for the next however long
I'm I'm going to go and and livehere.
(19:26):
Yeah, so again, just anotherbenefit of just being completely
honest.
So I'm wondering, as you'regoing through the journey with
Angela, Her condition ischanging. So throughout, I
imagine you're having to keepthe kids up to date with things,
and having to have some probablyquite tough and scary
(19:48):
conversations with them.
Catherine, are there any tips ortools or resources that that you
could that you give people tohelp them through that? I.
Yeah, it's such a hard question,right? Because it feels like I
always talk from that moretheoretical standpoint, and
being in the in the midst of itis, it's so much more messy than
(20:12):
me looking in from the outside.
We could apply a theory Exactly.
So here follow these steps, andit's, it's not as simple as
that, and you did all you could.
And I think there is no perfectway of doing that. I think one
of the things that I do is Isend through a few resources
generally around, what can youtell the kids? How do you speak
(20:32):
to the kids, and how do you pickup on the different way people
grieve? You know it might bedifferent than you expected.
Taylor grieved in her own way.
She she took it up on herself toI protect my heart, yeah, and
I'm there for others. And that'ssomething that you might not
have expected. It's not howgrief looks like. Well, that's
(20:53):
my next question is, what is youknow for kids? How do we know
that they're coping okay?
Because they're going to responddifferently totally, and I
think, and you know, the thingsto look out for are really the
extremes. Do they completelylose interest in anything that
they had interest in before?
Does their mood really plummetto a point that I'm getting
(21:14):
really nervous about them? Arethey riddled with anxiety and
have nightmares all the time,are they becoming really clingy
or very avoidant? Are theybecoming really angry? Is their
behavior regressing? So it's, Ithink we're looking more for the
extremes, because knowing thatsomeone they love so dearly is
going to die and not going to bethere anymore, can cause, you
(21:36):
know, some separation anxiety.
It can cause people to be like,Oh, I'm not coping with the
world, because it is literallyshattering. So it's the real
extreme stuff. And that was, andthat was, obviously the kids are
at different ages, but yeah, theyou know, one is kind of moving
in from, you know, from a childto kind of pre teen, yeah,
(21:56):
others kind of moving intoadulthood and and the other two
kind of stuck right in themiddle of of teenagers. So
someone says, you know, someonesays to you, what, how are the
kids? Which I don't, I don'tknow how they are at the best of
times, you know what I mean,because they're, because they're
teenagers, because they're, youknow, because they're pre teen,
or, you know, and all of thatkind of stuff. So and, like, I
(22:17):
think they're okay, like, Yeah,but, you know, do I base it on?
Oh, they're a bit moody today.
They're moody anyway, you knowwho, you know, and all those
fluctuations. So, yeah, I thinkthat was what I looked for as
well. Was okay. Is thereanything extreme happening, you
know? And thankfully, the,thankfully, the there wasn't.
(22:40):
But, yeah, you're right. It's sohard to it's so hard to judge,
you know, what's normal behaviorand what you know, and how are
they coping? Because I say tothe kids now, how was school
good? Yeah, what'd you do?
Nothing, you know. And it'slike, okay, well, thanks. Thanks
for that overwhelming response.
And it's, you know, and I wouldsay to I would say to them,
(23:03):
especially in the weeks after,you know, how are you? Are you?
Are you okay? And, you know,yep,
okay. Like, I Yeah, what do you?
What do you do with that? Butyeah, I think you're looking for
those extremes. Is, is reallyimportant. Yes, I can imagine
the worry, you know they're nottalking to me. Well, they're
teenagers. They do to me. It's,and even, and even, you know, we
(23:25):
it's, it's been over a year andstuff, and it's, and it's still
like, Okay, well, how are wedoing? What are we, you know,
are we? Are we okay with this?
And,yeah, it's an everyday thing.
And thankfully, you know, touchwood, there's still, you know, I
(23:45):
think, I think we're okay, butyeah, you just, you never know
what's the impact on you andAngela.
Because I imagine you're worriedabout Angela and caring for her
and supporting her. But the twoof you must also be have the
(24:06):
kids in your mind,I think, and and whether this
was what they did or not, Iguess I'll never know, but they,
they just, they just got on withit, you know, like, in that
initial period, they were stillgoing to school, and, you know,
(24:29):
we had people coming to dropthem off and and things like
that. But they just, they justgot on with it, you know, and,
and they're really good kidsanyway, when it comes to helping
around the house and things likethat. So, like, you know, they
do the dishes and stuff afterschool, and, you know, sorry
after dinner. And they, andthey, you know, they do
housework and stuff like that.
And so they just, they just goton with it, you know, and, and I
(24:51):
think, you know, without,without asking them, they.
They were just like they almostjust took on these roles of at
the moment, we've got to, we'vegot to look after them, you
know. And Dad's looking aftermum and, you know. And Mum needs
(25:13):
all the help and support thatshe can get. So whatever we can
do is, is what we're going todo. And so you almost, you
always didn't worry about them,you know, they just, they just
kept going and I, and I thinkagain, because they knew
everything, you know,we haven't, we haven't touched
(25:33):
on it before, butAngela, Angela didn't want us to
see her suffer. So she shewanted to go through the
assisted dying process.
The kids knew about that, youknow, that they you know. We sat
them down again and we said,hey, this is what mum's decided,
(25:57):
you know. And this is what thatmeans. And
so, you know, like, and youknow, do you have any questions
about that and and all of thatkind of stuff, like, nothing was
was hidden from them, you know.
And ultimately,you know, she didn't, she didn't
go through with the assisteddiet process. But they, but
(26:17):
they, but they knew everythingyou know and
and when it you know when. Sowhen it came time to for when it
came time for Angela passingaway, like, I think,
potentially, that lessened thethat that blow you know, of
(26:40):
you know, it wasn't, it wasn't asurprise, you know, it was okay.
That's what we expected. Becausewe've known all the way along
that this is what was going tohappen, you know. And we, you
know, one of the last times wewent to the oncologist and he
said, I'm really sorry, guys,it's, it's probably six months.
(27:01):
Now, it's not 18 months.
Guys that, you know, this isthe, this is the bad news, you
know. And you know, it's notwhat we wanted. But this is, you
know, this is what's happening,you know. And so they were,
again, they were just part of itthe whole way, yeah, Catherine,
there must be situations you'vebeen in where it's not quite so
(27:23):
open.
How do you navigate that in yourrole?
I think for me, it's it's, well,look at the end of the day, what
I sometimes think, as aprofessional, certainly as a
person myself, is it's not asimportant as where the family is
at. So if a family decides, forwhatever reason, we are not in a
(27:45):
position where we want to voicethat this is about life and
death here and how the story isgoing to unfold, it's not my
it's not my role to say you arewrong in doing this. I will roll
with that.
I might speak to. You know,what else can you say when
someone you know, when theydeteriorate, and when are you
(28:07):
ready to tell them? I haven'tfully had that conversation yet.
That hasn't really I've had thatwith adults, but not when there
were children involved. But itis complicated, because, like
you said, at some point youcannot hide it anymore. Yeah,
and then what anymore? Butsometimes people, you know in
I'm thinking about Asiancultures, or some cultures you
(28:28):
just you don't talk about death,it is within their cultural
framing to to not name that, toto protect people from that. And
I know that I have my ownframing and my own ideas around
that. But at the end of the day,I have to respect what, how
people, you know, live theirlife and enroll with that,
enroll with theirs. You cantotally and I'm also thinking,
(28:51):
as you talked about, you know,they got on with it. They they
did this stuff at home. I thinkthat's something that is really
important. Like their world isfalling apart, they will find
themselves in a world that theynever anticipated. And to keep
some sort of routine going, themore routine you can keep going.
That sense of normalcy is reallyimportant, and that can
(29:12):
sometimes be like, what do wetell the schools? What do we
tell their friends? Andsometimes it's like, actually,
let's keep that for now, becauseI want to go to school and feel
like I'm just me. Nobody knows.
Nobody looks at me as that kid.
Yeah? And for others, it's like,oh, it's really important for me
that teachers or my class knowsso but it feels like they had
(29:33):
that sense of normalcy. Theywere still going to school.
Yeah, there is still dishes.
Thank you very much. Yeah, youknow that that can feel like,
ah, the house is still stableenough. It something is still
holding me enough, in yourthroat that's falling apart,
yeah, and it's and, and, like, Iremember when I was 11, and my
(29:56):
and my grandmother passed away.
Me too and wouldn't but.
No one talked about it, yeah,you know, like, and, yeah. And
it wasn't a cultural thing oranything like that. And, but it
was just to your point earlier,you don't talk about, you don't
talk about death and stuff likethat. And I remember, and maybe,
maybe this is why I ended uptelling them. But I remember we
got, we got shipped off, youknow, we got shipped off to my
(30:20):
mum's friend's house for twoweeks. You know, we were like,
Why are we here? Do you knowwhat I mean? And they don't
understand, yeah, and I think,and then we, we got taken to the
hospital to why are we going tothe hospital? Oh, we're going to
see Grandma. Why is grandma inthe hospital? And then going to
going to see her. And this wasthe first person I'd ever you
(30:40):
know, had had passed away, andI walk into a hotel, hotel,
hospital room, sorry. And, youknow, and my, my grandmother,
doesn't have any here, and I'mlike, hang on a minute. I found
out you're in hospital 20minutes ago, and now you don't
have any here. And that's that'salways sat with me, and then,
and then we never saw her again,because we were, you know, it
(31:03):
was, we were shipped off, and,you know, and that will, you
know, that that will alwaysstick with me. So, so we missed
out on those, you know, on thosemoments Angela being sick was,
was over Christmas, and thingslike that. So it made, you know,
what moments we did get. It madethem special, and it made you
(31:24):
appreciate them more. And Ithink, you know, from the kids
side of things as well, becausethey just knew, you know,
yeah. And, like you said, it'seach their own of these culture
things, yeah and stuff likethat. But you know, I, when I
look back, I just think we, wejust made the right choice, you
(31:46):
know, to just tell them anythingand everything. And I think,
you know, and that carried onafter she, after she passed
away, and you know, we,we had, you know, we had Angela
at home and things like that.
And, like I said, it justlistened the blow, you know,
(32:09):
that it didn't, it didn't makethem, you know, any easier. I
guess it's just, you know, itjust lessened that impact of,
yeah, well, what the hell justhappened? Yeah, yeah. They were
involved. They were they wereallowed to be a part of it,
yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And part of that is, I thinkalso making memories. Like you
(32:30):
said, you know, I miss out onthose moments with grandma. I
would have loved to make somememories with you, but I can't,
and I've done some of that inthe past, I remember one session
where we sat around the kitchentable, 10 of us, and the
granddad, in that case was, youknow, the one with the terminal
diagnosis, and they were all thegrandchildren and some adults.
(32:52):
And we made canvases togetherand talked about the there's a
beautiful book the invisiblestring, that I often recommend,
you know, the invisible stringthat will still be there even
once he's died. And it wasreally special to have that time
of sitting together and ormaking hand prints and putting
(33:13):
them on canvases. And the youngperson can go back to, ah, there
is grandmas, moms, dads,whatever, handprint still there,
you know, to to make memorieslike that. Yeah, and I think,
and I thinkthis, we've got loads of nieces
and nephews and, you know, no, Idon't think they were told as
(33:36):
much detail, but, but they stillknew that only Angela sick. Now,
Angela adores all of them like,you know, for the first
Christmas after she passed away,I was like, I'm gonna get them
something I'm gonna, you know,to that they can keep. And so I
(34:00):
thought, I'm going to get themall, a photo of Angela with them
by themselves. I don't have tolook very far. There was just
all of these photos of her withwith every single niece and
nephew. There's, I'm pretty surethere's, like 14 or 15 of them
and but there's, there's a photoof them, and you can just see in
these photos, how muchshe loves them and how much they
(34:23):
love her,but you know, they would, they
would come over and they would,you know, and they would give
her, they would give her hugs,and you know she's in a hospital
bed, and you know, and and she'snot, you know, She's obviously
not the auntie angel that theyknow. And so, again, you know,
some of them are a lot younger,so they, you know, there wasn't
(34:46):
great detail, I'm sure, but theywere still aware of what was,
you know, what was going on. Itwasn't, it wasn't hidden from
them either. Yeah, the otherquestion I have, I hear a lot
around.
But you know, if we're going tobe open and honest with the
kids, the terminology that weuse, yeah, because we do tend to
(35:07):
maybe soften things for kids,mum's gone somewhere else, mum's
asleep. What's your thoughts onthat? Oh, I I get very icky
around the term of sleep, yeah,a lot of people still say that.
And it can come, you know, withwith a real risk that kids, at
(35:28):
the extreme end, then feel like,Oh, what if I go to sleep? Am I
never gonna wake up again? Or,what if you go to sleep? Yeah,
you're not gonna wake up again.
So you kind of have to stay witha as hard as it is use the
correct terminology at a childappropriate level, yeah, death,
they understand. They've alwaysseen an animal die outside
somewhere. They've they've seendead animals or plants die,
(35:52):
things die,but explaining what is happening
medically, I think thatterminology, you have to be
careful to not make it toocomplicated. But you know that
invitation, let's say thatsomeone's died, yeah, that there
is a death, that there is afuneral, a celebration of life,
and to normalize that stuff,yeah, I think that's really
(36:14):
important. Yeah. I liked youryour reflection earlier around
inviting them to ask questionstoo, all the time so you can
short answers. Yeah, wait, yeah,answer. Wait, it's not one
conversation. It's, it's, as youwould know, it's, it's a series
of conversations, as theyprocess, as they make sense of
what's going on. Yeah? Is thatsomething that happened? I'm
(36:38):
gonna guess, maybe more withTaylor.
Noagain, like she just, she just
kind of got on with it, and shejust, you know, she just kind of
almost just accepted what wewere, what we were saying to her
and and, you know, in terms ofterminology, you know, we
weren't using terms likeglioblastoma and stuff like
(37:00):
that, you know. But you know, itwas finding that balance between
using terms that she canunderstand without, you know,
without babying it down, or onthe on the flip side of that,
over complicating it and say,Well, do you know what a
glioblastoma is, and, you know,and all that kind of stuff at
that, you know, it was, it wasjust kept really simple, and,
(37:28):
you know, and at the end, Iwould just say, you know, has
anyone got any questions? And,you know, and you know, so they
were kind of, you know, okay,well, what will happen next kind
of thing and, and stuff likethat. But because we just kept
it really simple, because Ididn't understand it, you know,
like, up until she gotdiagnosed, I didn't know what a
(37:49):
glioblastoma was,you know, so I had to keep it
simple for myself as well. Itwas just kept really
straightforward. And,you know, if they did have any
questions, and again, it'sasking. They don't like to, it's
not cool to put your hand up atschool or anything like that,
right? So it was kind of, Havewe got any questions? Generally,
it was, you know, unless it wasa really obvious one, like,
(38:10):
Okay, well, what happens next?
But, you know, there would beother times where, you know,
they might just come along andbe like, hey, what? What is?
What is that for? You know, whyis this happening, or whatever?
So, yeah, and it's so hard, hey,because you just finding out,
you're trying to understand it.
You're writing your ownemotions. You've never walked
this journey before, and thenyou're trying to, how do I
(38:34):
explain that to the kids? Yeah,it's so hard, because it's not
like, Oh, you can just bracketyourself and you're still in it.
And it was the same, like,throughout the whole throughout
the whole journey. And that'swhy, like, when we would have,
like, when we had our firstmeeting with hospice, it was
four people there, you know,include about, you know, plus
(38:54):
Angela and and that kind ofhappened every time we had an
interaction with someone else,or a doctor or whatever,
because,I because you're being told this
kind of, you're being told thisinformation that you know, and
it's pretty traumatic at thetime, you don't take it all in.
You take you take bits you know,and then, and the good thing
(39:15):
was, is that when we had, we hada kind of group of people, and
we would all take bits and putall those bits together, you
kind of got the whole story atthe end. Because it is just,
yeah, it's, it's overwhelming.
And yeah, I think,you know, I remember going when
we got given the diagnosis bythe brain surgeon
(39:42):
that was given to us intechnical terms, you know. And
it was like, hang on a minute.
What is that talking about, youknow? And then it's like, oh,
okay, this and so, yeah, it wasvery conscious of that, talking
to the kids,keeping it simple, you.
But also making sure that youknow it's actually meaningful,
(40:04):
for lack of a better term, yeah,yeah, yeah. What about showing
emotions? Because there musthave been times Aaron, where you
were really feeling it foryourself. Is it okay to show
those emotions, or do we need tobe the strong parent that holds
everything together?
(40:26):
That's, yeah, look, IIt's, that's, that's a hard one,
because on one point, I'm like,100% you, you know, like, I
wanted them to know that it wasthat it was okay for them to
cry, and it was okay for them tobe upset.
But I would go to my bedroom,and I would shut the door, and I
(40:49):
would and I would cry, and then,and then I would come out. But
the thing was, every time I cameout of the door, guess who was
waiting for me? Taylor. Taylorwas there every time. And then,
you know, almost by default,became this, like,
Dad's gone to his bedroom andshut the door. He's gonna, he's
(41:10):
gonna need me in a minute. Soshe would, you know, she would
just come up and she would waitby the door. And, yeah, but
so I, you know, like it wasn't acase. I didn't want to hide it
from them, but it was like, Iactually just need a minute, you
know, you're Yeah, yeah. Andit's not like, I wouldn't then
(41:31):
come out of the room and belike, right, okay, well, I
don't, well, you know, and tryand carry on the, you know, the
day, like it was obvious that I,you know, that I was upset. And
I think there was at firstChristmas Jamie.
Jamie got Taylor, and I gave theTaylor, and I these teddy bears.
(41:55):
And I was like, oh, it's weird.
That's nice. Okay, he got us ateddy bear
and and then she said, press it.
Oh, gosh, so I press my teddybear. Oh,
and the teddy bear is Angela'svoice,
(42:18):
telling, like saying, I loveyou.
That was it like no time tothis? No, I'm not kind of the
bedroom, like just, you know,and there was, and then Taylor
presses her one, and her onesays, Taylor, I love you.
I don't know anyone that'sholding up to that, you know, I
(42:39):
don't care who you are. And, youknow, like, again, I wasn't
gonna hide that, Deb. And thenthere was lots around that,
right? It was like, That is themost amazing, thoughtful gift
ever that's come from a 17 yearold girl. And, you know,
traditionally, teenagers don'tthink about anybody but
(43:01):
themselves. And she's gone andshe's she hasn't, she hasn't
just bought these beers and putthe recording in. She has gone
and got all the individual bits,and she's un sewed the back of
the beer, and she's put thevoice thing in it, and she's
done put all of this effort intothese, into these things and and
like, it was just like, this isthe most amazing thing, you
(43:24):
know. So,yeah, it wasn't a case of hiding
it. It was, you know, sometimesyou just, actually just need a
minute. But yeah, 100% and youknow, the textbooks says that
you should, it's good if youshow your emotions, but please
don't show too much of youremotions. So it's like, but how
do you do that in reality? So itis good to show, hey, I need a
(43:45):
minute, and I can have that infront of you. Like, it's okay to
see your dad is also having acry and ah, so it might be okay
to cry, and at the same time,they can then become really
protective of their own, like,Oh, if that goes too far, are
you enough to hold my emotions?
And then they can reallywithdraw. And sometimes it's
(44:08):
easier for them to talk tosomeone else be it doesn't have
to be a therapist. It can besomeone else in the family or
another adult that they can goto when they feel like, oh,
you're a pretender at themoment, I have someone else. So
it's, again, it's such atightrope balance, and it's
really, and that's reallyinteresting that you touch on
that, because that was a reallybig thing for me, because,
(44:29):
because I was, you know, becauseI was so emotional. I what I
didn't want was the kids to thenbe like, well, we can't say
anything, and we can't doanything. What does we don't
want dad to get upset and, youknow, and all that kind of
stuff, and then them suppresstheir feelings, you know? And,
(44:50):
yeah, you know. So you had to bevery, very mindful of that. So,
you know, it's that findingthat, trying to find a balance
possible, yeah, 100% and then.
The flip side of that is, youknow, and there was a couple of
times where, you know, I wouldfind Taylor in her room and she
would be crying, I'm not, I'mnot not crying, if she's crying,
you know what I mean. And sothen she's like, Oh, I cried.
(45:13):
And he cried again. I don'treally want him to cry. And
it's, you know, it just becamethis, like, this whole complex
thing. It was like, Oh, what dowe do here? Yeah, is it
recognizing as well their kids,they're facing that they're
about to lose their mum? Yeah,it's a crap time, you know, and
(45:35):
let's acknowledge that and nottry to sweep it under or make it
okay, because it's it's notokay. It's not okay. And you can
find these joyful, beautiful,treasured moments in this awful
period, but at the end of theday, it's okay to have your
moments. And for you, Aaron,maybe the kids are learning
that. You knowhe's emotional, but he's this is
(45:56):
his way of managing. Goes to hisroom, and he comes out, and
that's okay as well. Andwhatever my way is of dealing
with it is okay as well. Andit's not an awful period, right?
Yeah, it's awful full stop. Andespecially for kids, as they
grow older, they finish school,they get into serious
relationships, they might becomea parent themselves. They
(46:19):
graduate from uni or whatnot. Soall these milestones, it
where's mom? So it is. It's anongoing journey. It's not just
an episode or an IT.
It's awful and it's crap. You doa little bit of work around sort
of legacy. Is that somethingthat maybe can can can help with
(46:41):
that, totally, totally likestuff like recording voice,
having, having, writing letters.
I've supported parents. Iremember one parent who was also
someone with a global stowa inher 20s writing letters for her
young, young son because shewasn't able to do the writing as
much anymore canvases or othercreative things, memory boxes.
(47:03):
It's a really beautiful way ofdoing that together, or
afterwards, to come together asa family as you are now. Yeah,
yeah. And, and I think carryingon from that like Angela is.
Angela is, is is everywhere inour in our house, awesome. We
have, we have photos of herabove, above her chair where she
(47:26):
sits. And Taylor has photos ofher on, on the on her wall in
her room, Jamie went outherself, and Jamie has one side
of her room is just all of thesephotos of Angela all framed, all
put on proper frames. And so,you know, Angela's Ashes are in
a woven basket, and that's therein the lounge and, you know. And
(47:50):
so she's everywhere, yeah, andTaylor and I have every night
since Angela passed away, andwhen she goes to school, we have
a thing where we don't saygoodbye anymore. We say, See you
later, and so and so, when Ituck when I tuck her in at
night, say, love you, goodnight, see you later. And then
(48:13):
she says, love you, good night,see you later, Mama.
And we,we blow kisses to Angela's
photos, lovely, you know. Andthat if we don't do that, oh
boy, you know, like if I get introuble for that every morning,
you know the you have to, youhave to say it then, oh, sorry,
yep, no, you're right, you know.
(48:35):
And so, so she, she iseverywhere, and we, you know.
And, and while she's not herephysically, it's definitely
here, you know, emotionally. Andwe don't know what lies beyond
anyway, right? We don't know.
And it's so beautiful to do, youknow, continue the relationship
in that way. Yeah, and one ofand touching on that, one of
the, one of the really, reallylovely things is, you know, the
(48:58):
the nieces and nephews, theythey all have their own little
story about where, where, auntyAndrews, you know. And so, as
scarlet, who is, who is for it,Arnie Andrew is the one that
brings the moon up, you know.
And so they go out and, youknow, and they'll see the moon,
honey. And just bought them,yeah, and, you know. And you
(49:20):
know, and they've all got theirown little story about, you
know, where is only ant now,that's really nice. Yeah, I
think we'll wrap it up there.
Catherine, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Your insight has been so, sohelpful. I'm sure that this is a
very common issueand questions, these questions
(49:41):
must come up so much we arelooking at how we can support
our children through these kindof circumstances. Join us next
episode where we talk about thefuture on Angela's terms. Thanks
for joining us. You.
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