Episode 13 - Ren Bell

As a number of recent articles suggest, the genocide in Gaza has thrown the field of Holocaust and genocide studies into crisis. Meanwhile, a new generation of students and scholars are actively naming the genocide and opposing Zionism. In this episode, Ren Bell, a graduate student in Holocaust and genocide studies at Stockton University joins guest host (and Another Education Is Possible producer) Samantha Hoehle to explore Ren's trajectory as an anti-Zionist Jew. The conversation moves through Ren's work in theater and performance and questions the future of Holocaust and genocide studies.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to another education as possible, a podcast about

(00:03):
education's radical potential. I'm your host, Jordan Corson.
And I'm your cohost, Samantha Haley.
So hi, Sam. We might ask this in the Jewish tradition, but why
is today's podcast episode different from all other
podcast episodes?
Well, today's episode is different because I will be

(00:24):
taking the proverbial reigns and interviewing this episode's
guest. As this podcast has progressed, we found ourselves
wanting to break from the traditional format we established
in the beginning. And in particular, we wanted to
engage in some intergenerational conversations that could
highlight the perspectives of presently emerging scholars and
activists. So our guest for this episode, Ren Bell, is a close

(00:47):
friend of mine, and we're both working towards our masters in
Holocaust and genocide studies at Stockton University. As
younger scholars coming into the field of Holocaust and
genocide studies, we're engaging with the field and
disarray. And the crisis that this field is experiencing has
come to a head amidst the genocide happening in Palestine.

(01:08):
Recent articles like The Guardian's piece defining
genocide, how a rift over Gaza sparked a crisis among
scholars, or Jewish currents can genocide studies survive a
genocide in Gaza, further illustrate this point.
Ren's background in theater, their advocacy for education and
representation, and their current research and work offers an
incredibly nuanced perspective concerning this crisis. And

(01:31):
their experiences as a whole offer a unique lens with which we
can understand younger generations and the ways they
resist Zionist thinking. And so without further ado, let's jump
into today's episode. Welcome to another Education is

(02:06):
Possible, Ren. How are you doing today?
I'm well, thanks. How are you?
I'm doing pretty good. So jumping right into it. What did your
education look like growing up concerning Judaism, the
Holocaust, Israel and Palestine?
Well, I grew up in even though I grew up in a really liberal

(02:27):
household, I grew up in the South in a pretty conservative
state in North Carolina. So, you know, that that very
very conservative influence, even though it didn't really touch
within the home, it was still kind of ever present in our
surroundings. And even though we were Jewish culturally, we

(02:49):
celebrated the holidays and everything. I never grew up
going to temple, because the closest temple to our house was
approximately 40 minutes away, even though we lived in a major
city, 40 minutes away. And, you know, my dad was a single dad
raising two kids for a while. And so this just kind of wasn't

(03:10):
really a feasible thing for him to do every every weekend with
two kids in tow. So, you know, we were, we were kind of the we
were the only Jews in our neighborhood, if in my school,
probably for a while, you know, I was the only Jewish person

(03:30):
that all of my friends knew, probably still holds true today
for a lot of them. So that was a very, you know, interesting
upbringing of, you know, knowing that we were different in a
way. But, you know, it to me, because of how I was raised, it

(03:50):
didn't really, it wasn't like a good or bad thing, it was just
a matter of coincidence that we celebrated this holiday. And all
my friends celebrated that holiday. But I still grew up with
this very strong sense of what was right and wrong, even though
we didn't, you know, necessarily have this like overtly

(04:13):
religious upbringing. I still have this very strong sense of
like right and wrong instilled from my my dad and my stepmom,
in this broader understanding of that there were groups in the
world who were treated differently, but that this
wasn't right, you know, not necessarily based in religion,

(04:33):
but just this very broad understanding of right and wrong
that my parents were teaching us from a very young age.
Right, of course. And so what did, did you have any experiences
with like the Holocaust or Holocaust education growing up?
You know, I've been thinking about thinking back on this for a

(04:56):
while now, you know, not just since you asked me to be on this
podcast, but even before then, thinking about how I came to my
knowledge of the Holocaust and it feels almost as if it's kind
of always been there. Like I I know, obviously, I was not born
into this world knowing what the Holocaust was. But I just kind

(05:21):
of it was something that was just kind of always known. It was
never necessarily a taboo subject in our house. My parents
always placed a very strong emphasis on education. And so I
always just kind of knew that the Holocaust very broadly was an
event that happened. And it targeted, you know, it targeted

(05:44):
Jews, it targeted our family, we had family who died in it. And
that our family and our people were victims in it. But there was
never a specific moment where my parents sat me down and told me
explain to me what it was, mostly self taught. Honestly,

(06:04):
through a lot of reading as a kid. I think one of the first
books that I read about the Holocaust was Lois Lowry's
Number of the Stars, which I know is a pretty popular one
amongst like our generation of. But I think the first one that

(06:26):
really sparked my interest in the topic, I think I read it, I
found it in my school's library and maybe the fourth grade. It's
called Yellow Star by Jennifer Roy. And it's this, it's this
freeform poetry style book that's told through the eyes of a
six year old girl in the Lois ghetto. And it's based on a true

(06:50):
story. The author is like, I believe she's the great grand
niece of the survivor. And so she interviewed her great aunt and
turned it into this sort of freeform poetry narrative. And
that book just really stuck with me because of how I was able

(07:11):
to engage with this history in a truthful way through the eyes
of such a young person and this very unique way of telling it
that was more than just a narrative format, you know, it
felt very authentic. And so that kind of unique way of telling
that history really sparked my interest in learning as much as

(07:35):
I could. And from then on, I would always be drawn to
Holocaust books, fiction or nonfiction, as well as, you know,
various theatrical representations that I could get my
hands on. So
that was the start of the theater kid developing within you.
Sort of the theater kid was kind of always there. My, my, my,

(07:59):
my dad has always been also a theater kid. And he, that was
passed down to me and my brother as well. And my brother, my
older brother, he, he was doing theater a lot. And that kind of
also inspired me to continue to start doing theater. And so it's
kind of growing alongside each other, I guess, until they

(08:22):
finally connected. My, my parents have always been strong
supporters of me and my brother wholeheartedly, especially in
the arts. My brother went to an arts conservatory in North
Carolina, and I decided to pursue theater as well. And I was
living in Florida at the time when I started my undergraduate

(08:45):
and the school that I went to in Florida, New College of
Florida, which you may have heard about in the news over the
past year and a half or so, two years, almost, has been taken
over in a literal quote, hostile takeover by the governor
of Florida, Rhonda Santis. He's completely changed what the

(09:07):
school is today, but it used to be a very progressive, open,
highly regarded school. And at that school, I began studying
theater, but rather than just theater arts and performance as
I thought I was going to be doing, I was introduced to the
field of theater and performance studies. And that kind of, and

(09:31):
New College was an honors college. So the path of performance
studies coupled with the academic rigor of an honors
college really pushed me to a more academically minded, down a
more academically minded pathway and performance studies in
general opened me up to a lot of different ideas of what

(09:54):
performance is can be what it does. And stuff like that. And I
ultimately decided from there that I wanted to focus more so on
dramaturgy rather than performance. I've been an
actor my whole life up to that point. But I decided I wanted to
go down the path of dramaturgy, which is more so like the

(10:17):
research that goes into creating and producing and
presenting a piece of theater. And I think that, you know,
that's very reflective of my interest in history growing up
and my desire for the self education that I always sought
after. And I would find myself whenever I was doing a show or

(10:40):
seeing a show researching everything that I could about
it, especially if it was a historical piece, learning as
much as I could about the history behind it. And I was always
particularly interested in how these performances represented
that history. And you know, what was being told through that

(11:02):
performance, what was being left out, and what that's saying
about the artists creating the pieces, you know, what are they
trying to convey and why?
That's great. I think you mentioned that a pivotal moment
for you was seeing the production of the sound of music.

(11:24):
Yeah. So where I lived in Florida in Sarasota, there's a
regional theater called the Oslo Repertory Theater. And in 2019,
I saw their production of the sound of music, which on its
own, I've seen a lot of shows and on its own, that was one of
the greatest shows that I've ever seen live, like that
performance has really stayed with me the past five years. But

(11:51):
I was I remember going to that show with a friend who didn't
have this educational background that I had on Holocaust
history and European history more broadly, leading up to an
around World War II. And I remember sharing all of this
information that I had with her to help contextualize the show

(12:12):
more, as well as rifling through the program, the play
program. And I was just so enthralled by how the the
program was laid out how it was contextualizing the narrative
of the sound of music, as well as the broader history of

(12:33):
Austria and Europe, right before the outbreak of war, you
know, it gave this very essential contextualization to help
set the tone for the show, even though that kind of stuff is
really put on the back burner until halfway through heck too.

(12:55):
So after I saw that show, and I just couldn't stop thinking
about the performance and the program itself, which I still
have, like I've carried it with me because it's just such a
remarkable piece. I kind of realized in that moment that
where my interests lie are in dramaturgy in this historical

(13:19):
research and this contextualization that is so
essential in producing these pieces for an audience who may
not know or understand what this history is and why it's
important. So it's this very interesting full circle moment
for me with my interest in Holocaust studies and that my
interest in theater coming together to offer me this sort

(13:42):
of perfect pathway to pursue.
Yeah, and I think that's really beautiful how your
education came in and how that contextualization we're seeing
is more than ever important nowadays in ensuring that
people are informed about what's going on in Israel and

(14:03):
occupy Palestine. Drogen, did you have something you wanted
to say? Yeah, yeah, I don't want to hijack from our main host
today, but lover of dramaturgy to theater kid to theater kid.
I'm wondering if you could take us a little bit more into the
weeds of what you think struck you about that program. What

(14:28):
what was the analysis of this so commonly produced show that
sparked something for you? I think it was because like you
said, the show is so commonly produced, but I think even more
than that, the show is like the movie itself is such an
essential cultural piece that, you know, everyone has seen so

(14:51):
many people have seen so many people know the story behind it,
but they don't get the history behind it, especially because
the movie leaves out some really intriguing plot points
between like Max and the Baroness and their apathy for
what's going on in the world and I for what's going on in the
world in Europe at the time. And I think the program

(15:14):
acknowledged the program acknowledged that it acknowledged
the complexities of the different characters within the show
of, you know, this is what these characters are, but this is
what they represented more broadly of these of how people
were thinking at the time in Austria with the impending
Anschluss. And so I just thought I just there was something

(15:40):
about that that this was my first time seeing that show live, I
grown up watching the movie and absolutely fell in love with it.
It's still such an important movie to me, but this gave me a new
context for the story that I hadn't understood before. And
also it had a timeline of the Von Trapp family, the real life

(16:02):
Von Trapp family. And that timeline reflected a different
history than what was being presented in the show. And that
also really stood out to me these these very these changes that
were made from the history to the performance. And why were

(16:22):
these changes being made? Why was it so much more dramatized?
What were we what were the show creators trying to do with this?
And so I, I, there was just something about that that really
just stood with me of stuck with me of wanting to understand
how these narratives are presented, how they're changed,

(16:46):
why they're changed. And what is that message that is being
conveyed to the audience? How does that maybe differ from the
history or how do you need, in what ways does this historical
context really enrich your understanding of the show?

(17:07):
So during this time in undergrad, you're pursuing theater and
you also were minoring in Holocaust genocide in human
rights studies.
Yeah, that was kind of accidental. So in my I transferred

(17:28):
halfway through undergrad in my first undergrad, I just sort of
was taking classes, I was taking my theater performance studies
classes, and then I was also taking classes that seemed
interesting to me. One of the first classes, Holocaust
history classes that I took, it was called Transnational

(17:48):
Perspectives in Holocaust Memory, and it was taught by Dr.
Lauren Hansen. And in that class, I learned about the hierarchies
of suffering. And that it was a it was a hierarchies of
suffering within Holocaust studies that we were learning

(18:10):
about or within like Holocaust history that we were learning
about, or you know, we have this pyramid of victimhood where
Jews are at the top and all other victims within the Holocaust
are below are less than as if it's like, as if it's like a
suffering Olympics that like the Jews are winning, which

(18:31):
suffering is suffering, and there's no competition there.
It's not. I forget which scholar called it a zero sum game,
but it's it's it's that's not what it is at all. But this
framework kind of laid my lead this foundation of how I
approached other classes of how I saw this sort of hierarchy

(18:53):
maintained within Holocaust studies, and then within
genocide studies more broadly or issues of human rights, how we
have this over inflated emphasis on the Holocaust as being the
worst of the worst, which again, like, there is no competition,
you know, violence is violence is violence. It's all bad. And

(19:19):
each one experience is not worth more worthy of attention and
recognition than another. And so having this sort of
understanding, as I was learning, as I was earning my
certificate, and then as I transitioned to the minor, it

(19:39):
it sort of became more integrated into my theater
studies, where I, I saw this hierarchy being maintained in
theatrical representations of violence of the Holocaust, where
it was very like, with representations of the Holocaust
was a very like Jewish centric perspective, there weren't many

(20:00):
representations that were popular of other voices from the
Holocaust, other experiences of victimhood within the Holocaust.
And that I found that particularly interesting how we
have this emphasis on Holocaust representation in theater, but

(20:21):
there's not much other popularized experiences of mass
violence. And so that's what inspired me to pursue the master's
degree is, you know, looking at how violence is depicted on the
stage, how mass violence and other genocides are depicted on
the stage. And that's what I came into the program, really

(20:44):
wanting to do is like understand the ways how who gets who gets
who gets this stage time, who gets this attention, and how can
that change how can we platform more experiences beyond just
the Holocaust for a wider audience for an American audience
because they have such a Holocaust centric, you know,

(21:08):
understanding of this, you know, like, there's so many recent
productions that touch upon the Holocaust today that you know,
you can you can name, but there's not anything on a Broadway
stage relating to Israel or relating to Gaza. There's there's
a there's nothing there. Yeah.

(21:31):
I, yeah, that I think that absence is spoken to a lot. And
it's interesting how it's also justified a bit of a side note
here, but one of my finals that I was writing was really
speaking to there being a lack of information about Gaza

(21:56):
currently. And it was very interesting to read because we
were comparing Russia and Ukraine and Israel and Palestine.
And with Russia and Ukraine, they were also speaking to
like the limited sources, but they were still able to pull
massive amounts of information about what was happening about

(22:17):
each specific crime being committed. And with Gaza, there
are just excuses that there that information isn't available.
And then that is where the conversation stops. And so it's
really interesting to see that like disavowal continue onto

(22:38):
the performance stage, because I think performance really
allows for an issue to become manifest most directly and for
people to be forced to interrogate it. So now you are at
Stockton University. What has your experience been with

(23:02):
with the Zionist identity on campus?
And like the MAG program and the Holocaust Center?
I also want to just quickly interject here and
contextualize because I think there's a broader conversation about
Holocaust and genocide studies departments that it might help to
hear a bit more, I know, or the maybe even the

(23:25):
perception of them because, Ren, I don't want to ask you to
bring in like anything from your family here necessarily, but I
know at least personally when I got my job at Stockton and I
got this, you know, I'm an affiliated faculty member in the
Holocaust and Genocide program. Anytime I tell, you know, a
distant cousin, they're like, oh, that's so amazing. Oh, and

(23:49):
then they immediately tell me about their friend of a friend of
a friend who donated money to the Holocaust Memorial. It's
basically a front for Zionism and it's getting back to exactly
what the two of you have been talking about. The
remember the six million Jews who were killed, nothing else
matters. That's the only story that's ever happened and

(24:10):
implied in that is therefore give money to, in your words, Ren,
the authentic Judaism of Israel. But I think it's important to
note that I don't want to champion any institution ever, but
by and large, I think there is a representation at least within

(24:31):
MAG, maybe not within, so Masters of Arts in Holocaust and
Genocide Studies program at Stockton, maybe not in the
broader Stockton community, but of deeply committed anti-Zionists
and deeply committed anti-Zionist Jewish faculty as well as
students. So all of that to say, I think there's a an important

(24:51):
context around being in a in a Holocaust and Genocide
department that it would be interesting to explore.
I get what you're saying and I, you know, on a on a like outside of the academic
level, like on a familial level, I I'm frequently like
emphasizing that the program is Holocaust and Genocide Studies

(25:14):
because whenever I say that all my family frequently hears
is that I'm studying the Holocaust and that's so important and
you know, we must never forget the sixth, like you said, we must never forget the
six million of our people who were murdered and
yes and it's always yes and you know, and so I for for a while I would

(25:37):
always, you know, emphasize like it's Genocide Studies like I'm a
Genocide scholar, I'm also a Holocaust scholar but I I
I save that for my for my peers who understand this nuance
for my family. I'm a Genocide scholar and honestly at larger family functions at
Thanksgiving and stuff like that, I I have just started saying

(25:59):
I study history because I don't want to open up the
debate in a very, not as welcoming environment of
where people would try to seek validation in their Zionist convictions
through me because of me being an authentic Holocaust scholar.

(26:22):
Big air quotes around that. You know, they would
no air quotes. You're you're emerging scholars.
But they would they would see that as you know
something where they can get validation for their Zionist beliefs of like
isn't this just like the Holocaust, what's happening today and

(26:43):
I wouldn't give that to them obviously because there
is it's not like the Holocaust in any way.
And they just want these very uncritical broad beliefs validated through me but
I just I would rather spend my resources and my energy

(27:04):
in other avenues where I know that you know change can actually be affected
than speaking to people who are staunch in their beliefs and will
are not open to hearing anything else.
Yeah, of course. So do you do you feel that the Zionist identity on campus is
similar in ways? Absolutely. I mean it's it's very

(27:29):
it's been very interesting on campus to see the very sharp contrast between
the Jewish organizations on campus, Habad and Halal
and their disconnect from the MAG program. You know you would you would
think that they would look to the masters of arts and

(27:53):
Holocaust and genocide studies in the Holocaust Resource Center and
ahead of our program who's an Israeli Jew for
you know as some sort of
somewhat as a place to provide context and better understanding but you know
there's not been any like we've been just at complete odds.

(28:13):
They've since October 7th they have been
spewing Zionist misinformation. They've been putting up displays on campus that
have just been blatant lies and these very
graphic and violent misrepresentations of what is actually happening and

(28:34):
you know anytime that has happened we've talked about it in class we've
documented and taken pictures and I believe for us has even gone to
our you know our program director Dr. Raiz Siegel has even gone to
various higher-ups in the university because it's misinformation but

(28:55):
and then attempt to you know get this stuff taken down these billboards
these posters taken down but because the because Habad and Halal
are protected by you know campus freedom of speech
they remain up which obviously freedom of speech is important but it's
harmful when you're spreading these

(29:17):
this misinformation and it can lead to the targeting of
our Muslim students on campus it can lead to the targeting of
anyone who voices anti-Zionist sentiments on campus
and also in general I've just never felt very comfortable with
the Jewish organizations on campus they have interrogated

(29:39):
my Jewish identity and questioned how quote Jewish I am when I first joined
this when I first started at the school and
briefly very briefly considered seeking out a Jewish community because
through them because as I've mentioned I did not have that in
either of my previous universities. How has that impacted your

(30:05):
feelings of like Jewish identity when you're being interrogated by
this group that's supposed to be your community like a group that you haven't
had a lot of exposure to growing up?
It honestly it was an unfortunately familiar feeling
because this this denial of my Jewish identity or this like

(30:31):
silencing or suppressing I I felt a lot growing up in the south because
you know I I've had I like it was I growing up in the south you know was a
very Christian community that I was surrounded by
and you know my friends that were my age were very kind and just you know as

(30:56):
kids are they wanted to learn more and understand more but
their parents were the ones who would sort of you know question me and
question our traditions and convert me try to convert me you know I
I have I've been to church more than I've been to temple

(31:16):
because I would just I wanted I wanted to hang out with my friends more
when I would sleep over at their houses so I would go to church with them on
Sunday after spending the night Saturday night and then
I'd come back if my dad would not be very happy that I went to church
and I never understood why but they would they would sort of see me almost
like a a charity case I guess that they could

(31:41):
try if they were able to convert me they would be saved or something I don't
know but all all growing up I these I I mean I
received a Bible for my 11th birthday from my friend a hot pink Bible for
girls for my 11th birthday
oh no

(32:02):
oh no what does the girls Bible
well like I said it was hot pink so you knew it was for girls it also said like
Bible for girls um it had various biblical figure
biblical girls and women like featured in its pages from what I recall I think I

(32:22):
just rifled through it and then hit it under my
bed for about a decade before I finally donated it
um and I applaud my parents for being
keeping a straight face when I opened that up at my birthday party
uh because I can't imagine how infuriating that must have been for

(32:44):
them to have their 11 year old child receive that
because obviously it wasn't for my friend it was from her mom and
so uh yeah it was this this sort of like non-acknowledgment
of my Jewish identity that I grappled with all growing up you know it

(33:07):
coming to this talk and and having it interrogated I
it was unsettling to have it be interrogated by
Chabad by a Jewish Jewish organization on campus but
I realized as I
a while ago I guess I kind of like came to this understanding that like

(33:29):
it's wonderful to have this Jewish Jewish community
of people who like think like me and whatnot but
it doesn't necessarily need to be I can also get this sort of affirmation and
comfort from my friends who are equally supportive of me and my Jewish
identity and I really found that at Stockton with the friends that I've

(33:51):
made in the MOG program um you know and I've
celebrated a couple Jewish holidays with my friends who are not Jewish but you
know they just want to support me and be there with me because I'm not at home
celebrating them and that's been where I found you know my own
community on campus and and an affirmation of my Jewish

(34:14):
identity on campus. Well it's and so luckily you've been
able to find not with the Jewish groups on
campus but with the MOG program and the people within that
a community that acknowledges your Jewish identity in a way that

(34:36):
is um from a place of love and growth and wanting to
like share those spaces with you and so I was wondering
in continuing talk about our the MOG program
what have your educational experiences been like with the MOG program with the

(35:01):
people that we've met through the program?
Yeah um it's I mean it's just been absolutely incredible being in the MOG
program and I think the most important thing that it's
created that the program has done for me is it's provided a space

(35:24):
especially since October 7th where we can have these
very complex and difficult discussions in class
where we can it's a safe space you know like where
anywhere else on campus or in the world you'd be met with this
antagonism and these like incendiary

(35:46):
remarks and these various like logical fallacy
arguments about what's going on but in this highly academic and critical
setting we have the space where we can acknowledge the I mean the hypocrisy
within our field of Holocaust and genocide studies and

(36:07):
you know we're able we're encouraged to write and speak out and this is sort of
almost like our own form of protest through academia and in doing this
where that we're being where our our academic and critical thoughts are
being nurtured to where we can carry this conversation on

(36:31):
outside of the class and beyond the classroom to
other environments where we can hopefully you know enact change
even through you know like writing is so important writing
and learning and sharing resources because how
that's how we learn is through these articles and how we can teach
writing our own works and speaking about it with

(36:55):
our classmates with our professors with people outside of the class or we can
share these resources and then they can read and learn more and understand more
and take that with them in their own studies even if they're not in our
MOG program.
Yeah I think that there are a lot of really great
discussions facilitated inside the classroom that lead to

(37:19):
discussions outside of the classroom which is one of the more beautiful things
about the program as well. A lot of the professors are very
open as you said to discussions that in a classroom in another school
might be questioned for their for being threatening or making

(37:44):
students feel unsafe and so talking about these classes
are there any like key scholars or texts that really shaped your
understanding of the Holocaust in Israel and Palestine?
Yeah the the Journal of Genocide Studies forum

(38:09):
on Israel and Palestine. Raz had us reading those
in last semester so not this past fall but the spring semester in one of the
classes of his that I was in he had us reading these articles as they were
coming out to help to help provide this very

(38:32):
critical context of not just the conflict at hand but the field of
Holocaust and genocide studies as a whole and that as well as
other works that we've read in Roz's class as well as in other professor's
classes Mark Levine and understanding how the
Holocaust is used as a paradigm. Zoe Samudzi and the

(38:55):
weaponization of the Holocaust these have been very
foundational frameworks for me as I've continued on in the program and in
understanding you know because my background is in
Holocaust studies I there's no change that.
A large amount of my knowledge is rooted in Holocaust studies so

(39:19):
understanding how it's how it can be used as a paradigm or how it is used
and weaponized sometimes you know the weaponization of it which
we see in justification for Israel's response in Palestine

(39:39):
we see this very violent and weaponization of it we see it in
Russia and Ukraine where Russia is claiming to like
denazify Ukraine and how this this hypocritical
perception of the weaponization of the Holocaust where like
it's not okay when Russia does it but it's okay when Israel does it.

(40:03):
Being able to critically understand that has been so important in my
higher education as I pursue my master's degree and
also like I was saying before you know the the professors
at Stockton in our program even outside of like these classes where we are
very pointedly talking about Israel and Palestine

(40:25):
being able to connect so many of our discussions
about mass violence as we're looking back historically at
acts of mass atrocity in the past and understanding how they
connect to today that's what Holocaust and genocide studies is it's not
looking at history in a vacuum on its own it's understanding

(40:48):
these historical through lines and how it's being
echoed today and what are we going to do about it you know
so allowing these our professors allowing us to have these conversations
and constantly bringing up Israel and Palestine and

(41:09):
having this space to safely do so and and interrogate the field and
interrogate Israel's actions has been so important in my education and
my understanding of anti Zionism.
What has it been like for you like interrogating the field?

(41:30):
I remember I was also in the same class and looking through the forums I
was really surprised I had mentioned in a different class that we had had
as a WGS scholar in my undergrad I was really shocked
that gender studies didn't come into the

(41:52):
genocide studies field until so much later and so looking back
I think it's not surprising that there's still this
looming Zionist perspective in a lot of scholars
but I was still very surprised because I think

(42:16):
and when I said WGS I meant women gender and sexuality studies in my
undergrad to clarify but I think I was very shocked to
see that I had been almost in my own academic bubble
surrounding myself by scholars and texts that I really supported and loved

(42:38):
and it had been become and it become so easy to ignore
this like large amount of people that were still
in this other bubble not wanting to interact
where they have these Zionist views and that aligned largely with like Western
media.

(43:00):
Yeah I think it was it was unsettling as we were reading these
forums to see that some of the scholars hypocrisy as well as
just like reading various articles you know in the
as in the early days after October 7th of

(43:20):
these various people these various academics around the world who
claim to be Holocaust or who claim to be Holocaust and genocide study
scholars but then are like voicing their
unconditional support for Israel and you know seeing scholars who I
recognized seeing professors who I recognized on those lists was

(43:41):
incredibly upsetting and as we you know continue to like
read these other works in the MAG program and
interrogate these you know these scholars who are so big in our field
and their stances on this it it kind of made me

(44:03):
it made me realize that this is why we are doing what we are doing presently
why we are in the program because this is how
this is how the field was and this is how it is currently
but we are the field's future and we are going to
like I was saying writing is our own act of protest as academics it's how we

(44:29):
are going to change the field and hopefully create a new understanding of
what the world is and what it can be you know Roz is always talking about
and Jordan as well you know you guys are always talking about
imagining new worlds imagining new futures and
it's hard it's incredibly difficult to imagine something that hasn't been

(44:52):
thought of before to create something that out of nothing but
that is what we as the scholars as the rising scholars in this field have to
do is create these spaces you know bring in
women gender and sexuality discourse into the field
and I know you've done that and I've done that in our own works in the program

(45:15):
where we are constantly challenging our professors to
bring in issues of particularly like queer identities
in persecution because it's it's lacking pretty broadly in
in the field and even today I remember reading an article about

(45:39):
about experiences of sexual violence in a refugee camp and it mentioned in the
article how queer and trans refugees in this camp
are not there isn't enough research done to be able to speak to it yet but
hopefully like in the future they will be able to and
it was a recent article so you know there's still there's still work that

(45:59):
needs to be done and hopefully that's what we'll be doing as we
continue to work in the program and graduate and work outside of the program
in the field. That was so beautifully said I love that I
I definitely hope that we are taking that path

(46:19):
I think as you said like queering the field has been important to both of us
and I think that really ties in with the hierarchy of suffering that you were
discussing earlier. I remember I I wrote a piece about
transgender and gender non-conforming people being victims of the Holocaust

(46:42):
that are largely unrecognized and you wrote a piece
as well about LGBTQ plus persecution I wonder do you want to talk about that
a little bit? Yeah I just that was kind of inspired
after in that class we had a week one week's readings dedicated to

(47:08):
like LGBTQ persecution in that class and
or in in the Holocaust and we had three readings that week and one of them had to
do with queerness and sexuality and the other two
were unrelated like you could loosely tie it to the topic but it never

(47:30):
explicitly mentioned anything relating to queerness and that was the week that I
chose to take notes on the readings for the
class for our weekly assignment and because I
thought that it would be a like really important week for me and I just
remember being really upset and uncomfortable not only by the how the

(47:55):
class how that week's readings were presented versus how they actually were
but also the one article that had to do with
queer persecution was very poorly written and I'm not going to name
the article of the scholar because I don't want to
you know I don't want to you know bash my

(48:15):
budding academic credibility just yet
but I remember being really upset by how the scholar
presented the queer experiences in the Holocaust
as very problematic and this was the only representation for that week that we

(48:36):
were getting of queerness in the Holocaust even though I knew there were
so much more beyond that and so for my final for that class we got to
choose any topic and I chose to write about queer
persecution in the Holocaust and it's many complexities
as a protest almost you know saying like it's more than just what this scholar

(48:57):
said it's more than what this how the scholar presented it and also
look at all of these works that I am referencing like there are plenty of
other there are plenty there is plenty of scholarship that we
can use to talk about this topic rather than this one
problematic article and also I still don't understand the point of the other

(49:18):
two articles in that week's themes so and you know like it wasn't
after that class and after I spoke in that class about my discomfort of the
readings and how I found it problematic and whatnot I think
I think that professor really took it to heart
and took it to heart and I think has since worked towards a more

(49:46):
inclusive classroom environment so yeah and so I was wondering if you could
talk about what queering the field means and a lot of people
usually if they know about other victims of the Holocaust
they may know about like gay men who were the pink triangles during the

(50:09):
Holocaust and so I was hoping you could expand on maybe some of what you found
and the greater complexities to queering the field
so looking at queering the Holocaust it's it's more than just
understanding you know what the pink triangle is and was and what it

(50:30):
represents what it represented at that time
and obviously you know there's also the pink triangle today what it
how it was reappropriated or reclaimed today for in the past
for queer liberation and AIDS activism but you know looking back

(50:52):
at queer Holocaust history it's it's also looking at the world
at Germany before the Holocaust started you know it's looking at
Magnus Hirschfeld and the Institute and the pioneering studies and
experiments and and medical surgeries that

(51:15):
were performed at this place as a safe haven for queer people in
Weimar Germany where they were open to be themselves to love
mevher and there was no judgment there people came and went from the Institute
like it wasn't just a research center it was also a home it was a safe haven

(51:37):
for queer people all over Germany and there was pioneering research done
there that were kept in its archives that you know
during the Nazi book burnings the Institute was reeded and
ransacked and those those works were destroyed and so we've lost so much

(52:01):
research from that so you know queering the Holocaust is also
looking at the Nazis actions before you know the
systematic persecution of the quote unquote other
and also understanding how they targeted with the pink triangle

(52:23):
they targeted those that they perceived to be homosexual men
but very arbitrarily you know they some some could get away with it
some they would persecute and you know this was done through a very
binary perception of gender and sexuality where you know

(52:49):
queerness was relegated to just homosexual men and you know queer
women were not acknowledged in this time because of how
Germany understood you know they how the gender roles within Germany
at that time and how if a woman was queer it

(53:15):
didn't matter because you know you could still she could still serve
the Reich quote unquote so to speak you know she could still
have an Aryan baby with a man and whereas queer men were seen as
you know they were they were not served they couldn't serve the Reich if they
if they were if they were queer in any way

(53:39):
so understanding these complex histories beyond just the homosexual man
and also that you know Germany is not the Nazis are prescribing these labels
of homosexual and man to these victims when one or neither of them may have
applied and like I was saying it's looking at it
through a very binary way where you know that it's it's erasing the

(54:04):
complexities of gender expression and gender identity and one's own
sexual orientation so that's just understanding how
it's more than just pink triangles on gay men is what
queer and holocaust studies is yeah I really like how one professor

(54:29):
had framed it whereas like like you're saying it's very
binary thinking we like to think of like the queer victims of the holocaust
quote unquote as their own separate entity and we don't acknowledge
that there were so many Jewish people Roma and Sinti people
like Soviet prisoners of war like there were so many people within

(54:53):
this persecution that probably had queer identities that we
unfortunately don't have access to anymore like as
like homosexuality became more accepted we got a couple of those stories from
like Jewish victims of a holocaust but we didn't really get those stories

(55:14):
anywhere else because we weren't looking and we didn't care
and so I think queering the holocaust too is as you're saying like realizing
that these identities are prescribed by the perpetrator but
they're also identities that these people that may have
who may have been persecuted for like another aspect of themselves

(55:36):
are still negotiating their experiences with and when we deny that
to them we are like erasing or simplifying that history
I think there's also something really connected here that
you're saying it's it's thinking back to history

(55:59):
earlier you said ran the the idea of how difficult it is to imagine these other
worlds and I think there's something great
about the idea of you know the the name for this podcast comes from the
Sapatistas who also say we we ask while walking or

(56:19):
so my favorite folks Miles Horton and Paulo Ferre have this idea of
we make the road by walking right the world is built as we
as we go through that path but you're both historians and you're saying that
these history we can also look to the archives right this
institute was such a beautiful place of queer
expression and if we want to imagine another world we

(56:43):
need only to look at what has already happened and what might have
happened if that world had been allowed to thrive
if that had continued and as you said Sam if it had not been
erased yeah yeah yeah and so I think I think that's
part of the work that theater does is bringing

(57:07):
those issues back to life and bringing those silences
acknowledging them and forcing us to be uncomfortable
with like why haven't we been talking about these things
I know that like theater is an incredibly important lens to you

(57:30):
obviously within the Mogh field how has how have you seen
theater being used as a response to mass atrocity
well I've actually it it it's really it really has opened my eyes to a whole
new pathway in my in my research because I came into

(57:54):
the program thinking that I was just going to be
looking at the representation of atrocity of violence on the stage
and you know and that I would be doing a capstone on
on you know maybe like writing a play or something like that

(58:15):
representing another piece another instance of violence trying to
platform underrepresented histories on the stage but
after being in the program for now three semesters
I'm particularly interested in what theater is what it does and how it's

(58:35):
used during and after these violences so
for example Dr. Christina Morris introduced me to
Doth theater which was a theater group who was active
who's still active today was active during the breakup of Yugoslavia and

(58:56):
used theater and performance to speak to the crimes that were being
committed to the violence that they were experiencing at that time
and after the violence it shifted from speaking out as protest
to a reconciliation because the countries that make up

(59:21):
Yugoslavia you know there's still a lot of conflict there today there's still a
lot of of tension and the work that they do is they
create these pieces that speak to a broad mutual understanding of
violence that each of them regardless of their

(59:43):
national or ethnic identities experienced and how that works to
bridge these differences and to understand the other so to speak and
you see that in the immediate aftermath but when you look at
you know as a coming from a largely Holocaust background both

(01:00:07):
academically and also theatrically you know I've studied mostly a
Holocaust theater the way that Holocaust theater is
largely used educationally today in the you know 80 years since the
Holocaust ended how it's been used primarily as a tool to

(01:00:27):
maintain and never forget and then never again and how it's
still largely focuses on the Jewish narratives the
Jewish experiences you know like for talking about
querying the Holocaust on in through theater the only I can only think of

(01:00:48):
two Holocaust plays that have queer experiences in them and that's bent by
Martin Sherman and very loosely could you say it's
indecent by Paula Vogel which is one of my favorite shows
but it's very loosely a Holocaust play I wouldn't necessarily call it that
explicitly but yes I do love Paula Vogel and I

(01:01:15):
saw the professional stage recording of indecent and
it's one of my favorite shows but that's beside the point
you know you there are very few experiences document there are very
few there's unfortunately a little representation of

(01:01:36):
non-Jewish narratives through Holocaust theater
on the stage but do you see that at all is perhaps your role
that you know there's been this move in theater
let's do you know very famously decolonial reading of the Tempest for

(01:01:57):
example will we see the Ren Bell's
dramaturging of an anti-Zionist queer sound of music
in the future? As intriguing as that would be
you know I I hope that we are moving towards that I

(01:02:21):
presently I don't think I necessarily see that on the
Broadway I think we're I think we're working towards that slowly but surely I
think the shift in Holocaust representation on in
contemporary American theater or at least like English language

(01:02:41):
theater is is largely a reflection on the Holocaust
and like representing a particular history it's like a play within a play
or like a history within a history where like you're looking back on the Holocaust
like if you look at Leopoldstadt by Tom Stoppard for example
you know the Holocaust is a piece of that story but it's a very

(01:03:06):
long it's a much longer narrative and the Holocaust has a section on it but the
show concludes with like the family in the 1960s or 70s I believe
looking back at that trauma and how it affected their family so it's
it's the post-memory and the it's the post-memory and the post-generation

(01:03:29):
and their experiences more than looking at like specific representations I
guess and largely that is that is the Jewish post-memory that is the
Jewish post-generation that's speaking to it so I I hope that as we
continue to critically interrogate you know as we see like this larger shift

(01:03:55):
in in perceptions of what the Holocaust is and what it was
you know we'll see more theatrical works um I myself am not much of a like
dramatic writer I don't know why how I thought that I would come into this
program and come out of it writing a play

(01:04:16):
um you'll get there step by step that's for I am no longer aiming to do that
I I'm working on developing a thesis I don't have a specific thesis idea yet
but I won't be doing a capstone project um
I won't be doing like a research-based thesis tying in
theater and performance most likely to Holocaust studies but I would you know

(01:04:39):
it's it might because my academic focus and interest is in Holocaust studies but
again like I was saying before not in a vacuum you know it will speak
to larger issues of genocide studies of Zionism
and Palestine um and you know that's what I want
I work to do even though my my my academic interest may be in the Holocaust

(01:05:03):
and that maybe is a maintenance of these structures
it's it doesn't exist on its own it needs to be multi-directional
and and you mentioned Palestine here and I was wondering
there's a beautiful collection of works that you've talked with me about before

(01:05:25):
the Gaza monologues and I was wondering if you could
speak to those and how they're introducing a new narrative to the scene
yeah um so I my friend when I first told one of my friends who
already got her master's degree she got an MFA in theater

(01:05:47):
so you know she's a bit further along than me but
she introduced me to what the Gaza monologues just in passing and
I took note of it and started doing my own research
and I I learned about what it is and what they are and so
the Gaza monologues were originally created in 2010

(01:06:10):
they were created and produced by Ash Tahr Theater Company
which is a group based in Ramallah in the West Bank
and the 2010 monologues are a collection of you know children's
children and Gaza their experiences with conflict with Israel

(01:06:33):
settler colonialism and the violence that they've witnessed and experienced
and so that was in 2010 they came out with another series of the Gaza
monologues in 2014 and they have since come out
with another series in 2023 at the end of 2023

(01:06:58):
within the time span of two months in response to Israel's
genocidal assaults and then I recently discovered that they came out with
another batch this past year fairly recently because I check the website
I check back on the website semi-regularly
so it must have happened sometime in the past few months that they published

(01:07:20):
this new series in 2024 speaking to the Palestinian
experience in Gaza and what's so interesting
is obviously you know because they're based in Palestine
these works are originally written in Arabic but

(01:07:43):
they are translated into so many different languages
the 2023 and 2024 collections are translated into English
and I believe a few other languages but the original
monologues are translated into so many different languages and
you know I think that speaks to this urgency

(01:08:07):
of sharing of testifying to the Palestinian experience and to reaching
as many people as possible which you know it's not just an act of
it's not just a means of education of educating a broader audience but

(01:08:27):
it's also this act of solidarity and protest which
has been actualized because they've had various days of solidarity the
Ashdorke Theater Company has hosted various days of solidarity where
they ask groups around the world to participate in staged readings of the
Gaza monologues and it's really it's really beautiful

(01:08:53):
and you know this this sort of work it's it works to
humanize and individualize the violence that
Palestinians have faced and are continuing to face
and you know it allows us to connect beyond these
mass numbers that we've been reading about non-stop

(01:09:15):
since October 7th not just within the context of October 7th but the
historical aspects of it as well you know we
you're learning now the individual identities that are being impacted by
this ongoing trauma and this like this long
deray of genocide since 1948 and before.

(01:09:38):
Yeah and I think like you sharing that with like the monologues with me for me
was like a pivotal experience because it is one thing as you said to
read all of like the numbers about what is happening but then
it is truly another to get to hear their voices

(01:09:59):
from like spoken from somebody directly and to
be emotionally vulnerable and feel that and so even though it may be small I
think like sharing pieces like that has can have such
a big impact and so we've discussed you know like

(01:10:19):
sharing those types of works creating those types of works
what else has organizing or solidarity looked like for you as you
navigate grad school as a Jewish student. Yeah I just wanted to go back
real quick to you know that the the way that the Gaza monologues

(01:10:40):
impacted you that's that's why I want to do this that's why I
first got interested in the overlap of theater and
genocide studies and why I want to continue with it because it's such
a particular and beautiful way of sharing these histories to a broader

(01:11:02):
audience you know academic texts are important like I've been saying but
they are for a particular audience and theater can
you know it opens the door to a much broader audience it's an
accessible means of educating and of this learning and it connects

(01:11:22):
you you connect to the words and to what's being shared in a
such a beautiful and intimate way and so that's why that's why that's
that's really wonderful to hear that you connected so so strongly with the
Gaza monologues um so I just wanted to say that
that's that's why I do what I do that's why I'm so interested in this field um

(01:11:48):
but as for as for you know organizing and solidarity as
as a as a Jewish student I think the largest
way as you are aware the the largest way of solidarity has been writing
letters of protest in support for us for Dr.
Raussegel um after he lost his job offer to be the University of Minnesota's

(01:12:13):
director of their Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies um
this past summer as that was coming out um
I think all of us students were shocked by how someone so
you know so well established in this field would be denied that job position

(01:12:35):
purely because of political convictions and
disagreements and you know this this decontextualizing of his
perspective and so writing to the University of Minnesota
as you know his student and you know getting
other students from the MAG program you and all of our classmates as well as

(01:12:59):
graduate graduated students um to voice their support for this
letter was um you know it was it was a really
impactful thing for me as as a scholar and activist
outside of you know writing this letter of protest uh

(01:13:19):
Sam you know you and I were co-presidents of MAG Society our programs
club on campus um and as we've been bringing the club back um from
inactivity one of the events that we've been doing
that we're getting started is a book club relating to the topic of genocide

(01:13:40):
studies and the book one book that was suggested and
ultimately chosen by our members to read for our first book club
um is Don't Look Left a Diary of Genocide by Atef Abu Saif
which is a diary of um the first 100 days of the genocide in

(01:14:02):
Gaza and so you know doing this work to bring to keep the conversation going
and keep it relevant and present within our studies
in the program I think is incredibly has been
really important also as we are working next semester
to collaborate with um RAAS as well as with Students for Justice in Palestine

(01:14:25):
the club the branch on our campus and a few other
organizations on campus to hold a Palestinian
screening uh screenings of Palestinian films
so you know bringing that keeping this discussion
relevant and at the forefront not just within

(01:14:48):
our classrooms but within our program within the school at large
has been pretty important and I think to that same degree
educating myself and educating my family and my friends um I think has been
really important uh even though it's it seems like a small

(01:15:11):
act of solidarity I think it's been really important for myself and
for others who have been open to this education to learning more um
you know I think it I've I've truly I've I
I've learned so much in this past year and a half alone
about the field about Palestine and

(01:15:35):
a stronger affirmation of my anti-zionist identity
um has really been supported through this education and
also you know through that education bringing it into classroom discussions
like I've mentioned before keeping it keeping it going time making these
connections between historical conflicts and
the violence today you know it's it's it's so important to

(01:15:59):
continue talking about it and bringing it up in these classes especially for
people who may not be as well versed on the topics that they can
understand that these histories are not existing within a vacuum

(01:16:25):
today's episode was produced by Yardain Amron Jordan Corson
and me Smyrtha Haley if you like our podcast please rate us where you listen
we're also on instagram and you can find us at
another ed is possible there we promote a number of mutual aid campaigns that
support Gaza and we also platform a lot of different

(01:16:46):
speakers and uh voices that you can hear from for this episode
Ren is asking folks to support the Gaza monologues
so we encourage people to check out Ash Tahr Theater's webpage
to learn more we'll also share more information in ways to support them on
our instagram once again thank you so much for listening and we'll be back soon

(01:17:08):
with a new episode of another education as possible