Episode 8 - Rachel Martin and Sukey Blanc

Whether at the Penn encampment or marching in the streets of Philadelphia, the Jewish Boomers Against the Occupation in Palestine have been a visible force of Palestinian solidarity work. In this episode, the group's co-founders, Sukey Blanc and Rachel Martin, take us through decades of friendship and intersectional organizing.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to another education as possible, a podcast about education's radical potential. I'm your host, Jordan Corson.

(00:09):
I hate those common sense is essentialized ways that people speak about generations.
You know, like Gen Z kids are this way or Gen Xers do this or that and maybe that's a very millennial perspective that I have but
if anybody thinks that boomers are just disengaged out of touch or
dismissive of the utopian visions of younger folks then today's episode offers a great challenge to that narrative.

(00:37):
Sukey Blanc and Rachel Martin are two longtime educators organizers and friends living in Philadelphia. In today's episode
we talk about their organizing with the impeccably named Jewish boomers against the occupation in Palestine their decades-long friendship
the loving differences in their politics and the work of lifelong and inner generational study and struggle.

(01:02):
Before we jump into our conversation a quick note. We're really trying to grow our podcast. If you like what you hear
please leave us a rating download episodes and share it widely.
We hope these episodes contribute to the urgent yet often slow work of unmaking Zionism and
help anti-Zionist think and study toward another world.

(01:24):
Now here's our conversation with Rachel Martin and Sukey Blanc.

(01:49):
Sukey Blanc, Rachel Martin, welcome to another education as possible. How are you both doing?
Good. Good. Happy to be with you and Sukey.
Yeah, so maybe we could just start by the two of you telling us a bit about yourselves.
Yeah, I just want to contextualize where we are in the world right now.

(02:10):
So Rachel and I and Rachel's partner Tom were at a fundraiser for Playgrounds for Palestine last night
which is a group that's doing an amazing job of giving kids in Gaza some

(02:32):
sense of what it's like to be a child.
So I just want to, it was really an interesting event. I think it was really caring and really
life embracing which is almost impossible to do in our current context with the level of

(02:55):
destruction, massacre, genocide. So I just kind of want to put us back into where we are.
Yeah, and they have movie nights and they say it's just everybody loves to go to a movie night
in Gaza and they open to school this summer in Gaza. 120 kids grades one through five.

(03:22):
We don't understand how they did that.
Yeah, and really beautiful non-didactic education from what we saw too.
Yeah, wasn't that great? We saw them sitting in circles, we saw them dancing, we saw them
creating stuff. I don't know if we ever saw kids facing forward.

(03:47):
No, there were some places where there were chairs, I noticed chairs, but not the kids
sitting in the chairs. I saw them in a circle, but I don't think that, imagine,
none of the kids were like facing forward to the teacher. They teach Arabic and English.

(04:08):
I think that's so beautifully put, the idea of being able to offer some semblance of
childhood and creating the possibility of school as a community.
So I guess back to who we are. For me, it's just,

(04:31):
I have found it, like many people, how do we live every day with what's going on supposedly?
Oh my God, I'm sorry about this. I'll just have to turn the whole thing off.
I'm going on supposedly in our name, in the amount of destruction.

(04:57):
I guess I grew up with a pretty strong emotional connection to Israel and Israelis,
not Zionism per se, but more pretty close family connections and historical generations long.

(05:19):
My great grandparents on one side were in Palestine in the 20s.
A lot of my family is still in Israel now. I grew up here.

(05:41):
My mom grew up here. My dad fled the Nazis from France, first from Romania, then from France.
He never saw himself as American. So I think I've come into this ish discussion about Israel
and Zionism in Palestine from a pretty complicated, not exactly typical American Jewish place.

(06:06):
What did that childhood look like?
Well, I grew up in suburban, most of my time was spent in suburban New Jersey.

(06:26):
I think my parents kind of shielded us from a lot of stuff. They were liberal,
socialists actually, but I guess I've been thinking a lot about how on the emotional level
of what, especially what my father experienced as a kid, I think they hid it from us. I think

(06:47):
there were a lot of fears that were recognized, but not, sorry, not recognized, sort of not
into, but not addressed. I think that has come up about really unacknowledged grief and fear
in the family, which is different from what they're, the ideology was very socialist. I grew up,

(07:08):
I always was anti-capitalist. I mean, if you ask me what a core identity is, you know, it's like
socialist, feminist, Jewish, probably in that order. So does that help a little bit?
It certainly helps. I think I'd love to hear more about the complexities of
your relationship to Judaism and Israel, but maybe Rachel, you could share something similar,

(07:32):
just an overview. Yeah, my father was a rabbi. So, you know, my world was Jewish except at school,
and the thing was that he was revered because rabbis are revered, and also he was a scholar,
and he was actually awful. So that was tough. The first two Yiddish words I learned were

(07:54):
mumsur, which is monstrous, that's what he called us, little mumsurs. And then the Yiddish word
for the N word. My father used, and I must have been, I don't know, in grade school, and man,
that stuck with me. He said it once when we were in the car. Maybe he said it again, but

(08:16):
what I realized, so my father was born in Eastern Europe, and there was, so he, he was a rabbi,
but then he became a professor, and he was prolific writer and translator. Just always worked,
always, always. In fact, he had these three prong paper clips and black felt-tip pens

(08:41):
that I would avoid all my life, but then about 10 years ago I decided, oh no, I can use these.
It's cool. It's okay. Manila folders came everywhere, and what, and I didn't talk with him very much,
but what I, what, what some people, what I might imagine is that he was feverishly working to

(09:05):
restore or hold on to Yiddish culture and philosophy and language. His first language,
of course, was Yiddish. So, yeah, I grew up with terror. I was in fourth grade, and I thought that

(09:29):
the Nazis were going to get me. It's weird that I still feel it. It's so weird.
60 years later. Anyway, they were going to get me. They were going to come from behind where my,
my, my, there was a window behind my bed, and they would come down the street in University Heights,
Ohio, and get me because my father was a rabbi, and I was, I had a big nose, and my name was Rachel,

(09:53):
which then was more of a Jewish name. There was a, I wanted to say something about this,
but my father also is complicated too, because he took me to anti-war moratoria.
So, during the Vietnam War, and when the young students were killed at Kent and Jackson State,

(10:17):
we were in Cleveland, so he took me to Kent State. I was the only kid to come back to eighth grade,
I think, with a black armband on. So, I did, I did, you know, get some things from him that were
obviously positive in all of that. He helped young men get conscious of vector status, that kind of thing.
Yeah. You're both sharing this very interesting notion of, kind of, psychic tear moving through

(10:47):
your upbringing. Do that relate to Israel at all, or your conception of Israel? Because I certainly
grew up with thinking of Israel being the solution to that tear, right? It was, it was the place of
safety. It was the place where the Nazis can never get you. I didn't grow up with any sense of
a place of safety. You know, I mean, Israel, my parents were Zionists, and I went and marked, you

(11:14):
know, all that stuff that you did a generation later, you know, some listeners did, I did all that
stuff, but no. Right. And I did not grow up with that stuff of the going on, because my parents were
more like connected to Israel on an emotional and a personal level, but always very critical of the

(11:44):
Israeli government, not of Zionism per se, but like often nowadays you hear people say,
there's Zionists, they think Israel could do no wrong. I'm like, I grew up in a family that was
pretty connected to Israel, but Israel could probably do no right. So because you can have that

(12:06):
emotional connection and still be critical of, well, as of, was of the labor government as well as of
the, you know, Jabotinsky and Netanyahu and all of that stuff. So it wasn't, it also wasn't seen as a
place of, that wasn't, it wasn't a place of safety, particularly. So when you're, when you're growing

(12:28):
up and hearing these critiques, what did they look like? What were you learning? Was it critical of
the government in the sense of we need better leaders or Palestinians? Well, what I remember
most clearly was after 67 when I was, we were not very connected with the Jewish Center, although we

(12:52):
were, I did go to Hebrew school there, not religious school, just language school for me. I was the
odd person out in the world of that world. But anyway, so, but we were, but we were not very
connected, but after 60, it was one of the few Jewish institutions in the U.S., I'm sure, where

(13:14):
there was a rabbi who right after 67 spoke at the High Holidays about the rights of Palestinians
and against the occupation. And he was kicked out. And so, and my family was on his side. So I knew
from, well, I was, I wasn't a young kid, I was 13, but I knew that, yeah, Palestinians were people

(13:40):
and they had rights and Israel should not be taking over their land. So I would imagine that was
very different for you, Rachel, that the relationship was a much less critical one. Oh, I didn't know
the word Palestinian. And yeah, I mean, again, I know it's a more common experience in Sukis,

(14:05):
you know, Israeli bonds were bought in my name for birthdays, a tree was planted in Israel. My
mother only bought oranges from, anyway, Israel, no Florida oranges. So I just want to say something
about why my experience has been confused, feels confusing to me and why I think I have a hard

(14:34):
time when I hear talk about Zionism and anti Zionism is because I also had some of those things. I
also had Israeli Israel bonds and trees planted in my name. But that did not preclude a deep critique

(14:55):
of what the state was doing at the same time. So I've had discussions with a number and a number
of places where for the first time I realized there are a few people who grew up the same way
that I did from not even left of left of labor Zionist families who grew up essentially in
Marxist Zionist groups where there was both this connection to the state and some an assumption that

(15:22):
the state had made fundamental mistakes along the way. I mean, these are people who in who had a
who were going back generations to the earlier part of the 20th century up until like up until
the 1940s opposed the creation of an Israeli state. They believed in creating a bi-national
Arab as it was called then, Arab and Jewish state, which is what people who now often are anti Zionists

(15:48):
say. So it's confusing to us when we hear because I grew up with enough of that kind of ideology,
even though I that it was confusing. We should talk about your relationship and
what it looks like to be friends and scholars and activists and Jews who

(16:11):
you know have been on this educational journey together for for many years now. So maybe just
starting with how you've met 40 women. No, more than 40 for sure. What did we need?
Well, Jim and I split up when I was 29.
So I can tell you 82 is when we met because that's when I began the staff person for the

(16:36):
Reopertutor of Arts or the edition and I was in 82, 26. So yeah, so that's what 42 years.
That's a very long time. It's a very long time. But I'm thinking, but I think we maybe did
connect about being Jewish in a certain way. You must have.

(16:59):
Pretty early on. And I would imagine that, you know, I'm kind of putting an educative slant on
this that I imagine the two of you are learning and teaching and studying together and learning
from one another. Well, we had that weekly check-in. You were doing your dissertation

(17:22):
and I was doing my book. Oh, you mean in general, not about Judaism.
Oh, about Judaism. I mean, I was hoping that Judaism would filter through everything. But yeah,
I think, you know, using the word intersectional or just kind of, you are many things.
But Jewish wasn't part of, was not one of those identities in our collective.

(17:44):
Even though there were a lot of Jews. It was suppressed. It was part of, we were part of the
Jewish, non-Jewish identified left in that. And I was in my whole life. Maybe you were more Jewish
in other parts of it. But in my political life until now, I was never Jewish.
Well, my partner at the time who I lived with and moved to fill it with was, I think, one of the

(18:09):
founding members of New Jewish Agenda. So that was part of, although I was like a sister traveler,
I didn't, wasn't an activist in that way. And maybe this is a time then to ask. So
for you, the change was a bit more dramatic in terms of Israel. So you grew up not really having
critiques, not really thinking outside of a Zionist framework. And now you are explicitly

(18:35):
anti-Zionist. Or these. But I wasn't fervently Zionist. Maybe more of a passive. Passive.
But the move from that passivity to where you are now, did that start to emerge at this time
when you and Suki Matt, when you moved to Philadelphia? I think that what pushed it

(19:01):
was being on the left. And I had a good friend, a very, very close friend,
who I've no longer than you, probably 45, 46 years, who is not Jewish, could not accept.

(19:23):
So this friend assumed that I was a Zionist. And that bothered her, of course. And
how do I say this? She had a hard time grasping that, no, I don't know, line with Israel.
I just had to keep hitting her over the head. I'm like, why do I have to keep proving this to you?

(19:47):
But I think because of her, it pushed me to articulate that more and be more clear about that.
You were always suspect on the left at that time if you were Jewish.
That's really interesting in a horrifying way that is frightening.
Can I say one thing though? I think the reason I wasn't active as a Jew for Palestine, I mean,

(20:12):
I was always, always, always more, I was drawn to grassroots work. That's what moved my kishkas,
was doing grassroots political work. I raised my daughter to know what Israel was doing.
But I wasn't an activist at all for Palestine until October. But that's the reason, I think.

(20:35):
Oh, but that's interesting because I was then, in a sense, more active in that I had done some
actions with, I don't know if I did anything with JVP. Well, I definitely went to some events sponsored by JVP.
I did some stuff with, if not now. And I did, and I did act, I did education and advocacy around my

(21:05):
family member who was a draft resistor in Israel. So it's not, so this is the examples of things
are not very straight line forward. I was actually thinking, what about Ms. Swift for sure, and also
October 7? Yeah, because, I mean, what's cool is that Tsuke and I kivetch to each other about

(21:28):
organizing, you know, and get support for, you know, things that come up in organizing, like,
oh, I did all this work. And then someone's, they didn't do their part, you know, or intergenerational
stuff, like, yeah, intergenerational stuff, organizing with young people when you're the only

(21:49):
old person. So we are totally supportive of each other's work, yeah, including, so Tsuke, you know,
was one of the main, like one of five main organizers for October 7. For what? Oh, you mean,

(22:10):
just, oh, you just mean the, you mean just the vigil, the vigil, yeah. And I actually was six,
so I couldn't go, but I, oh, so I didn't, I wasn't, didn't plan to go. But I was 100% behind Tsuke
doing it. And, and watched the, you know, she sent me the media coverage, you know, I watched it a

(22:34):
few times, you know, and, and just a side, a side note is that after October 7, that first week,
and if you remember this, there was, sorry, 23, that first week there was a gathering to mourn.
And I'm, I'm talking, I was like, I just don't feel, not in a mourning place, I'm in a rage

(22:59):
place. So, so there just are moments when we're, so I didn't want to go to October 20, October 7 to
the 24. Personally, I just, it's not what I needed to do was mourn the Jewish lives lost. If I had
close family in Israel, I might very well feel differently if Israel, of course, hadn't then

(23:27):
started a war, I might feel differently. But it just didn't, for me, it didn't feel like where I,
I wanted to put my energy. So that's, you want to say anything about that?
Well, I actually, I didn't get involved because it was where I wanted to put my energy.
I got involved because prayers for peace was cosponsoring it as part of a three-day thing.

(23:52):
Yeah.
And we were really clear that it was the Palestinians and prayers for peace felt that
they could honor a day of grief for Israelis if we were also separately honoring
a day of grief for Palestinians and another day moving forward and that it was part of a

(24:18):
comprehensive whole. And so I was delegated, so two things happened. I was delegated to be the
representative for, for October 7 and then simultaneously, if not now, asked me to be
a co-coordinator on that. So it was pretty interesting that I was not going into it as

(24:38):
just, as just that. And in fact, leading up to it, because I was carrying the whole,
all the pieces in my head, to the extent possible, given who I am, I wasn't sure I was going to
feel grief on that day, but it was a really powerful ritual and I did and it was really

(25:00):
meaningful. So that was an interesting experience. So I, I just think it's like,
you know,
like why did you, like, I don't know, I just felt a little bit of an assumption you were
making about why. I mean, we were definitely different on the three days. I mean, in October,
the 2023, we were really different. That I did feel like I needed to mourn and I needed to mourn

(25:26):
both. That was really clear. I needed to be able to mourn both sides. That really meant a lot to
me to be able to do that. But it just, as an example of how I had moved in the last year,
was that I was a lot less focused on the Israelis a year later.
You're true. You are. You are. But I'm even less focused and I think I was worried that,

(25:53):
um, you know, we, we, we know someone who, um, Jim, um, was thinking of doing a performance art
where he would read the name of an Israeli killed October 7, then 43 names of Palestinians. Now,
of course, the number, it's probably more than 43, but you know, another Jewish name, 43 names of

(26:18):
Palestinians. And I worried that the, that having a separate day for October 7 would set up a false,
um, a false equivalency. And, and I, I also, and this is nothing to do with you, but
lots of Jews came on Monday. I think there were estimates for 500 people. Only April 18th

(26:43):
had that many people. I mean, in one year, we've only had two events or actions or vigils that size.
And, and it was a lot of Jews. And I wish I could say, well, great. And then maybe next time they'll
go to a Palestinian, um, protest or vigil because they're, they're, they're not so far. Um, so it's,

(27:14):
but it's easy for me. I think it's, I think it's easy for me. It's just how I feel emotionally,
but just emotionally, but, but also, well, not just emotionally, but tactically too. But it's also
easier for me because I don't have people in Israel.
What you said, Rachel, I am standing behind Sookie and choosing not to go to this one thing,

(27:40):
or I'm supporting, I'm so excited to watch you say on the news, but I'm not going to attend myself.
Um, getting back to these, these smaller moments, I think, Seder's, Bat Mitzvah's, where,
where are these disagreements and not Seder's, do you think? Oh, no. Well, so Seder, you think

(28:03):
that's our happy place. We have some in us and come anymore. I mean, we've been, I mean,
Sookie and I have been doing, I've lived other places. Um, I left Philly and, and lived in New

(28:24):
Mexico and elsewhere, but, um, anyway, I've been back in Philly since 2006, I think. So
Seder, yeah. So we had someone over Israel who, um, over something, it was a Zoom Seder during
COVID and, and he will no longer come because of some things that were said about Israel.

(28:46):
Um, but it did come up about Matzah. I remember it started with Matzah.
How? Whether we were going to, because one of,
Oh, get Matzah from Israel. And we, I would just assumed, I think, right?
Or I did. Well, it was a Zoom Seder. So I don't remember what the conversation,
it was one of Nomi's friends was talking about. I sort of remember,

(29:07):
I actually think this was also partly a generational thing. Yeah.
Because I think it was some young people who were like, of course we're not getting Matzah from
Israel. And so if you're someone who was, and I wasn't going to get Matzah from Israel.
And no, no, I have, but I don't think you would have said it quite in the same way.
Quite in the same way. Yeah. Because you were in a different, you are, you do know even,

(29:30):
but this was before, you know, really, really bad discussions happened or non discussion.
But, but, you know, even then I think you knew some people had more
sense, Israel sensitivities. Like you just wouldn't have been, oh, of course we don't get, you know.
But I think Seder has been like a one year I was not up to facilitate. Something was going on in

(29:53):
my life. And I asked Suki to do it, even though it was at my house and everything. I feel like,
I feel like you and I are very aligned in the Seder's. And I rely while I'm sort of the facilitator
and making connections and connecting what people are saying to each other. Suki will come up with
something provocative. Oh yeah. Yeah, that's your role. That's my role. Another way to get

(30:14):
conversation going. Yeah, like I disagree with things. Any examples in particular?
So what we often do is we, we take a drop, you know, you put your finger in the wine cup,
you drop it on your plate for each of the plagues. But we started doing it for victories,
political victories in the last year, a drop for each victory. But then Suki made a good case for

(30:36):
remembering the plagues. There was also, you know, the whole, oh gosh, every year it comes up.
Are we really going to have something in this Seder plate that, that represents passing over
the Jews houses and getting the Egyptians? That's been a common theme. Yeah. You see,

(30:57):
I'm calling more and more to certain of the traditional things actually. And their symbolic
power. Yeah. Which is a nice, a very nice balance. And considering I grew up in a non-religious home,
it's pretty interesting. I do just have to interject. You know, I've been on a long journey
to try to find anti-Zionist Judaica. I don't keep, I don't keep Passover, but I love Matzah

(31:25):
because you can put as much butter on it as you want. And I am still on the journey to find what
it sounds like. You all found non-Israeli Matzah is a thing? Yeah. Yeah. So how does it strike?
At Tom gets, I don't know. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Tell your listeners. Yeah. You can find Matzah,
not made in Israel, and you will post something about that. That is fantastic. For those of us who

(31:50):
want to take that journey and support BDS, that is one direction to go. And then I don't want to
make this too linear, but I think you're starting to gesture towards some of the joys and fun of
the intergenerational aspect of your work. But we should talk about the limits of briefly. I

(32:10):
thought I was going to say, but that was exactly what I was going to ask before I start getting into
your broader work. I've been pushing towards it. And if you're okay talking about it, let's
let's talk about the Matzah. You are right. That one Seder in particular, oh, others, Paul was
upset at the young people for another, another Seder. And maybe if there's some same one. I don't

(32:32):
think so. I knew it. So Seder does bring up some tensions between the young people there. And, and
I'm usually agreeing with them, but I'm not, I don't put it the way they do. Anyway.
So, so, oh, so my daughter had a bat mitzvah that was made up entirely, just made up from soup to nuts.

(32:55):
And her, oh, but just say, but it was first she went to Folk Shull, which is where my kids went.
Yes. That just is about our relationship or as far as our relationship. It didn't work. So then she
kind of created her own after. But there were some examples of non-religious. Oh, that's I just want

(33:15):
to say. Secular, which we were partly partly from us. I think you got those maybe from other
places too. Right. And then, but then like we didn't have a Torah portion. We let her have any topic
in the whole world. We actually held it the Calvary Church in 48th and Baltimore and we covered the
font. We had a Pueblo giveaway at the end. I mean, we just really made it up. And it's pretty joyous.

(33:40):
But, but, but her topic that she chose was how and when to teach young children about traumatic
historical events. So as part of that, two of her mentors who were older than us,
independently sent her something called Seven Jewish Children to Play for Gaza. Very short play,

(34:02):
almost like a poem. There are seven roles to play. And Nabi was going to direct it. And we needed
seven people who were comfortable, you know, doing that. And my brother declined because he thought
it was was anti Zionist and and Suki declined. And at the time, what I, my memory is so strong that

(34:31):
because because of my brother that Suki's, and I remember we talked about it in our family that
Suki's at the time her critique was that it, it was anti Zionist. And if anything, I thought it was
maybe it really, I thought really equated the struggle of Palestinians with the struggle

(34:54):
of Jews before, during and after the Holocaust. At the time, I remember thinking, oh, why can't Suki
just do this for know me? But I've changed. Now I feel very strongly that I wouldn't want a friend

(35:15):
to model to my daughter that you do something to please people that really is against your what
you believe. But you have another, as you read it now, you have a different critique. Well, I
really doubt this is this is something I was thinking about after we talked last night. Yeah.
That I really doubt that I said it was my critique was those anti Zionist. I believe your brother did.

(35:39):
But I doubt I used that word because I did not identify as a Zionist. I have not identified as
a Zionist, you know, for the last 40 years. So I doubt that I would specifically say it was anti
Zionist. What I think more likely is that I felt it did not capture the reality of Israeli perceptions

(36:04):
or that's what I think I might have more likely said it was anti Israel than anti Zionist.
Fair, fair. Absolutely fair. And and then in my mind, I conflated them.
Anti Israeli and not anti Zionist. Yeah, there's a difference between absolutely people and the
state. Exactly. If you are some people think there's no difference between the people. Yeah.

(36:31):
Yeah. So that happened. Yeah. But but maybe flashing all the way forward to
right now and how I came to know the two of you.
Could you start by just sharing what this banner is this world famous banner 100% and I just

(36:53):
thought of something that I don't know if you can spice it back in. And I don't know if it's
important. But speaking of Haga, you know that I order more moralist.
Her the Red Sea poem. Well, we use it. I've used it just only the last three years as the story

(37:19):
of Passover. And the reason I wanted to bring it up is it's it shows my own struggle. This
equivalency thing. So here's a brief bit of it. So she refers to the first crossing of the Red Sea

(37:42):
back when this time we're tied at the ankles. We cannot maybe you've heard it we cannot cross
until we carry each other until the family blasted into fragments of the Seder table
bears the body of the Arab man beaten outside your friend's apartment until the childhood
until the child bulldozed her death in her grandmother's house gathers in her arms the

(38:06):
couple blown up on the bus. So that's the tenor of the poem. This is just an excerpt excerpt and
the end says this time it's all of us are none this crossing. And my daughter feels like it's
she doesn't like it because it's it's equivalent. And I don't think I would have used it a number

(38:29):
of years ago. But it speaks to me now. That was contradiction with other things I think actually.
And I say justice first before I say peace because I understand there's not going to be any
peace until the act until until there's justice whatever justice is. But I I just feel really
strongly about that. And we're about to say until the occupation ends. Yes. And I took out

(38:51):
occupation because occupation can mean different things. Well and and the group we started is
Jewish boomers against occupation in Palestine. Should we get should we go with that. You want
to talk about the first meeting. No I haven't had enough emotion. Well maybe if you just

(39:12):
descriptively share what what the banner is and where it appears. Yes yes. But forgive me. I have
just it emerges out of the difficulty of this meeting. So you can cut it if you want. But I
don't know. There may be 12 of us 13 of us in October got together in my backyard. We all knew
each other though some had seen each other for decades except for one one person who just showed

(39:35):
up on a zoom and had gray hair. And so I invited her which is not always the best thing to do.
So it's so the reason that Suki and I were going to zooms in October and we saw one person who we
knew from years and years ago who was old. And so we got through this got together. We decided

(39:58):
to have a presence as as old people older people. That first meeting was really tricky
because we were we sort of intended to be an ad hoc group. We weren't going to form a new
organization. There's lots of organizing going on. We had two goals which is to increase the

(40:20):
visibility of older Jews in in the movement and to get information. So a lot of older Jews were
not on the apps and the chats. And that's where all the info goes out. I'm delighted to hear that
some young people too have difficulty with the apps and chats. So we got together and and we

(40:44):
knew a banner made sense. But when we talked about the banner because we didn't have it was October
and we didn't we had a banner with seven bullet points which isn't effective. So
so the three of us who originated the fun we just made an undemocratic decision.

(41:07):
OK we're not going to have any bullet points. We're just going to have the name of the organization.
That's the name of the group Jewish the name of whatever we're not even a group but Jewish boomers
against occupation of Palestine. Now because that first meeting was there was it was contentious in
some a lot of ways. And so the second meeting and I learned this at Highlander which you'd asked

(41:34):
about before at the Highlander East with Highlander School now it's a Highlander Center.
Every meeting that takes place or whatever kind of activists are coming together who are
ever coming together we sit in rocking chairs rocking which just really it's hard to be real
tense if you're rocking. Also everybody sings all the time. There's music music music. So

(42:00):
the banner we were a little worried about the second meeting where we were going to make the banner.
And the reason we went with a fabric banner was I thought well if we're all you know seen around
and cutting and pinning and helping each other and making mistakes and laughing at each other's

(42:23):
mistakes that would just chill us out. And then we had master sewers which was fortunate to master
sewers who put the whole thing together. So the banner made it viral made it made it so viral at
the pen encampment. And I'm going to read some it was 1.2 million what views. Wow is that how many

(42:46):
of them? 1.2 at the last time the young person looked for me. Wow that's great. Are they called views?
Yeah I think it depends if you got 1.2 million likes or shares views or oh it depends on yeah
no idea. It made its debut and soon after went viral I think is the takeaway and I think the

(43:08):
key here is that it's explicitly named Jewish boomers against the occupation of Palestine
and it's appearing at the pen encampment. We should talk about boomers for a second. Right there was a
big debate. Seniors, old heads, oldsters, what else? Elders. We didn't have ultra-cockers.

(43:32):
Which all have fantastic associations right I think for folks who aren't aware I believe
old heads is a Philadelphia thing. Is it? Well it did appear in Abbott Elementary.
You always think of you know particularly it's bound up in gentrification but people will say like
oh yeah yeah that person down the block is an old head and that means they have knowledge. Yeah and

(43:56):
I think in organizing spaces elder carries something very specific right I'm a movement elder and
that's like so self-aggrandizing to me. Yeah but yeah it's a white boomers.
How could it have to be boomers? Well some people didn't like it at all. I know they didn't but
who brought her up? Oh you did but now but once we started using boomers it wouldn't

(44:17):
stop. And chibout. And people just latched onto boomers. Yeah and I didn't know that it was a
derogatory thing among young people somehow. Yeah. But people say hey you're reclaiming it.
All right so here's some of the comments from when it went on whatever form it went on.

(44:41):
If you're over 40 you'll learn so many vocabulary based. A lot of people say we were based. Based
boomers based based based based is good that's all I know. People often forget that those were the
students in the 60s rallying against Vietnam. Oh my god I love them. A lot of love. Boomers

(45:03):
know you got to cut those little flaps in your canvas. Some replied this was intergenerational
protest knowledge. Another one you know they're about this because they have the wind flaps in
their banner. Another one yeah you know Boomer Dad showed up saw the sun pulled out one of the five
multi-tools he carries in his pocket to add those. Someone else said other option crafty granny got

(45:27):
the rotary cutter out to make the whole thing. That's why it looks so nice. Which is the true one.
The granny yeah yeah it's giving seasoned. Some OG protesters right there. Faith in boomers restored.
I don't know how you say this. You know when young people add a lot of S's okay boomers.

(45:48):
I don't know how to say that. Yeah yeah and then they wrote not derogatory. Yeah I was there
in a lot of sort geeking out about the expertise going back to the flaps. The heavy weight of
experience back to the flaps and these some swaggy boomers. And then two that were maybe I said one
that we were moving was faith in boomers restored. And I think that we didn't form for that reason

(46:12):
or have the banner but a third reason to exist is for young people to see that there are people
their parents generation who are right there with them. And then in Arabic and someone wrote in
English even the boomers are with us. Yeah even the boomers. And there was one quick thing that
happened at the at Penn which is that we our banner is big seven feet long and some people at the

(46:39):
Penn encampment this is the first day the Penn encampment went up and there was an Israeli flag.
So the protesters asked us to just move you know cover the flag which we did we drew up the flag.
And we were all packed in really tight. So right next to me was a very tall person with the

(47:01):
pro-Palestinian sign right behind him like no more than a foot were the counter protesters.
So the really tall person and a counterposter turned around faced each other and had a stare down.
Not blinking both of their chests kind of puffed up and like practically touching

(47:23):
like they were just you know going to have a like you know what I mean can you picture it.
And I'm like this is going to this is going to explode. So I'm on my phone asking for the
the de-escalators to come over yeah have the de-escalators come over and then I'm saying to
someone saying next to me this is not good this is not good somebody's got to stand down here.

(47:48):
And and the tall person I say tall because they just were kind of imposing with their height
turned around. I don't know if it was because of me but then the best part comes then the counter
protesters started hurling insults at us and one of the things they said was you're too old to be

(48:08):
so stupid and kind of went like I'm ready to put up my fists but I didn't you know I stopped I was
just so you stopped in midair and this this Palestinian protestant posted a protest or
leading swayed down to me and says you got this. I loved it and then I knew right I just turned

(48:30):
around. I just love that he did that they did that. That's amazing. Yeah. And really gets a way you
spoke about earlier of the I think complexity doesn't do it justice but that there are joys and
there are moments of maybe frustration but the wonderful work of intergenerational organizing

(48:53):
and intergenerational education in a sense. So I'd love to hear more about what that experience
is like at Penn in your general involvement in these different spaces and groups because I know
I'm going to get it wrong. Jebbalp is is one small part of what the two of you are doing.

(49:20):
This is the sound. Well I can I love my young people. It sounds very condescending but I have
gotten a lot of joy actually out of sometimes I feel yeah I feel like I've I feel like I've learned
a lot from well say those things. Well let me think of what they were. I didn't prepare now.

(49:44):
Yeah. Analysis facility with words. What else I don't know I feel like
like one of the things that Rachel I have in common I think even that it doesn't have anything to do

(50:07):
with the ideology and but I think that's pretty true for all of us and Jebbalp no matter exactly
where our politics are is we are just a little less hesitant to jump on any particular thing.
I don't mean that we can't be enthusiastic but I think we you know tend to a little more

(50:29):
reflection and it doesn't have to do with you think something. Yes and it's not and it's not that the
young people aren't reflective they're really reflective and really thoughtful but they are
easy they seem to be a little most of them a little easier to turn on a dime. I don't mean
politically but you know it's just like let's just do this so we're going to get you know kind of

(50:49):
thing and for me this is not true for Rachel because Rachel has probably because you're
young people live here in Philly with you so you're a little more exposed in a direct way to
non-binary gender fluidity in a daily basis. Oh you mean the people in my family. In your family.

(51:11):
Yeah. I bet if I was in my if my family was right here too I would have it also but because I don't
I had was a little slower to come to a direct involvement with you know not making assumptions

(51:31):
about pronouns you know that and you know just yeah we had a big conversation about it a few years
ago. Yeah we did yeah just kidding. We weren't we weren't aligned there yeah. Yeah yeah certain
things yeah yeah um anyway so that so I think that that um I think that's the and in a way that's

(51:55):
the most challenging that is challenging and that's learning for me right it's like learning to
learning. It's it's multi-directional that learning is happening yeah I think if you're
learning from folks at the encampment you're teaching folks at the encampment. It's not so much
the encampment for me but it's through the Priests for Peacewear. For me if not now the

(52:18):
cork the core team I was the only only older person on it and I'm the only older person
you know and medians and um Priests for Peace there's we have older people you have older people
so and and someone was going to a group of young people were going to sort of start a new group

(52:40):
here and I was very interested but I just didn't want to be the only old person.
I think we were a little more structured actually. Yeah yeah a little more yeah we've been to
more meetings than they have you know um like it frustrates me when there's a meeting a
mass meeting and the chairs are all facing forward like just basic just don't have the

(53:04):
chairs facing forward um but that doesn't yeah I feel like often those kind of yeah a lot of my
ideas don't really don't really nobody um you know you run the fact no one no one salutes um
but so how do I feel respected I mean um I think I think I do I do feel respected in that

(53:29):
Sukien I know Philly really well like some people went to school college here stayed or
they've just been here a few years um so we know the city and we have a big network so I think
we're we're really appreciative they're calling us for that and we're appreciative for that um
I think a a challenge is that you know we didn't when we were activists until whatever year we

(53:56):
didn't have cell phones you know we didn't even have phones that you could walk around with without
a cord we were tied to the wall and what we did was we would activate the phone tree so something
was you you know what that the phone yeah so you think everyone knows what the phone tree is maybe
you could just explain I I should not be the one dictating explain a phone tree well a phone tree

(54:20):
is when one person picks up a phone and calls a few other people maybe three people and then the
then they call three others three other and the three and so pretty soon everyone at the
parent and teacher association or the activist group has been called and it develops relationships

(54:46):
that way and also you're saying hey do you near ride to the meeting um I think that and so without
I think that's lost and I think it's it's not so good like we would have protests there would be
new people that nobody knew and I think young people aren't just oriented to going up and

(55:09):
and welcoming them and find about their background and how'd you get here and you you know would love
to hey are you going my way in the way home you know um I don't mean to just complain am I just
complaining uh it's just hard I guess and it sounds like it's not just people it's it's kind of the

(55:32):
mechanisms of organizing in the present right that that were and and I would I would argue
in favor of saying yeah we we become a bit alienated from some of this work um from
even some of the materials of this work um so are there times where you think this should just be

(55:55):
among folks in in the boomers group or there are times when you think well let's let's bring this
to everybody or just kind of how do you balance that wanting to speak within your oh you're using
an affinity group that way in a very broad sense I'm thinking of affinity group we think of I think
before a year ago affinity group to me was the people you get arrested with

(56:18):
and and that we and that was doing civil disobedience and the affinity group well I do know that
I guess we call them caucuses before anyway there was different language um so you're talking about
affinity group as identity base clearly as as your sign you know suggests right what counts as a

(56:40):
boomer it's supposed to be somebody who's technologically confused and disengaged politically
and just concerned with their 401k and you're not allowed to have radical politics you're not
allowed to show up at the protests and but anyway to to suggest the idea that that affinity is shared

(57:01):
kind of with a group like the Jewish boomers and how you might balance something like hey we have an
idea do we want to talk about it internally or do we want to bring it to a broader group oh I have
a thought yeah um well see trip out until now we have just been a banner and an email list

(57:22):
an email list so I go through the apps in the chats and then put the actions and events to email
um and we have some young people who said oh I need to be on that because I don't want to do all
those apps and chats and um so we have not we had one discussion about the encampment at Penn

(57:49):
that was the you mean oh oh we did we had a zoom meeting yeah we had a zoom meeting that's because
they because you were feeling for a while like people weren't responding and we decided to have
a discussion for people to share their thoughts or questions and talk because you and I don't know
who else had been down there but you were the main person who'd been down there when some people

(58:10):
were scared to go they thought they'd heard it was violent or um they oh they heard it was uh
anti-Jewish you know so we had a open zoom discussion and one or two other people had
yeah some other people and then besides for you too and then the thing coming up is that I've gotten
excited about this green olive collective and it just seemed it just it's the first thing it just

(58:36):
seemed right for Jabalp the other thing it seemed right for Jabalp but it fell fell apart was um
the movie foragers the movie foragers is about um Palestinians who forage for the things the spices
that they use in a daily basis well it's it's illegal um and the Israeli government not only has

(58:58):
made it illegal but they will put people in trial and put them in jail under the guise of environmental
protection foragers and they're most they're a lot of them are old they're just right back out there
doing it and so that seemed like a cool thing for Jabalp to co-sponsor with the now fell fell apart
for a different reason but the thing coming up that I've just initially suggested the idea and we'll

(59:18):
see if you know take it from here after the election is the green olive collective forms
solidarity circles with villages in the west bank and you they pledge the solidity circle pledges
a monthly amount to support olive trees and rebuilding homes after destruction and then also

(59:40):
has a monthly zoom with people in the village and gets you know with the decimation of of journalists
you know Palestinian Arab journalists we're just not getting on the ground information on
ground stories this is a way to hear what's happening in this west bank on a daily basis

(01:00:00):
and then we would then spread that word because I think I hate to say but I guess there's some
news fatigue whereas stories might grab people might grab Jabalp or is in a different way and I
also think it's if you're connecting with a particular move part of the movement or a particular
set of people it just helps strengthen yeah it's different than news I mean I yeah but why

(01:00:27):
Jabalp or why would you back yeah well because it's a Lisa it's a ready-made it's a ready-made
group because you can do it with another group but why not do it with one that exists right and
also because they have money and might also some people in it some people in it are active and go to

(01:00:49):
demos and stuff and some people might not but they could still do something like this that's right
from their homes yeah yeah so only speaking for yourselves having been through decades of friendship
decades of organizing work um yeah I'm hesitating a bit because I'm there's no way to not ask you to

(01:01:13):
speak for others but with all of this wisdom for folks who are just starting out for folks who maybe
had the energy of the encampment are now encountering having different ideas maybe somebody has
an explicit anti-zionism and kind of a marxist non-zionism maybe some folks are trying to wrestle

(01:01:39):
with emerging friendships or friendships who are kind of in difficult places what kind of wisdom
can you offer what ideas can you offer for or do you have a sense of how how you've stayed in it
both as as organizers and as friends um I think just asking how what advice you might offer to

(01:02:10):
somebody who wants to be where you are have have 40 plus years of friendship and be as deeply committed
to liberatory politics as you wore 42 years ago if you have any any insight of anything they might
want to hold on to first thing comes to mind which which we talk about is taking this so now it's

(01:02:39):
called self-care you know I don't like that somehow but you know really knowing when you need a break
knowing when it's not a hill you want to die on because it is the long haul it's the long haul you
can't do the long haul if you're constantly constantly in struggle all you what was the slogan

(01:03:07):
it's been a no unity all struggle day that was a car chance but it all struggle no unity day
you can't be in a struggle all the time well that's true but I also think this is gonna sound a
little snide pick your friends well because I feel like you know the world we're in and we've been in

(01:03:36):
since we were 30 it's not that we're in no other worlds but we are in a world where people are
paying attention to what's happening outside of them outside of their own personal lives and are
trying to be active about it and I and you know with radical politics and varying degrees oh that's

(01:04:02):
another thing don't be sectarian that's my number one don't be sectarian you got that everybody
well I'm thinking about in terms of friends friendships it's like because I was thinking
about because I said people have a radical belief things can change but then I'm thinking yeah but

(01:04:24):
you know what some of what we do is electoral work and like so I think I think it's kind of have faith
that there can be some social movements and political movements and sometimes they're broad

(01:04:45):
and but be in stay in touch with people who are doing stuff that you think is important
because I know there are other people like how are you doing they're just in other words I'm not
even talking about they're not necessarily conservative or they're not necessarily Zionist
they're just in different worlds and and I I'm probably someone I would say I've gotten a

(01:05:07):
drag along by Rachel and by my partner Paul I mean I sometimes might tend myself to be more of
someone who walks on the beach and reads books but but because of my friends I don't and it's
really important to me that I don't um you don't you have some liberal friends oh yeah yeah how do

(01:05:32):
you manage those relationships I want them yeah but how do you talk about like this has come out
you know how do we talk about Palestine? Palestine? Um
well I think they're my liberal oh I'll talk about my my most Zionist friend she um

(01:06:03):
she said something really sweet to me the other day she was a childhood friend and she said
that I was just thinking about how your family had a sukkah and she said they weren't religious
but they were really Jewish and I think that that was for them actually it was a little bit
the Israeli connection and yeah and um and so for her I think I think I've tried to emphasize for her

(01:06:32):
that I am Jewish and I'm doing this because I care about Jews as well as Palestinians
that's you know and and I think around around Israel and Palestine I think that is how I
I kind of handle it that's not exactly what your question was but well you helped you helped me so

(01:06:55):
I was I was about to go to stay with friends in Boston who back in January were not willing to use
or genocide and um and initially I have a few after one very bad conversation with a liberal friend I

(01:07:16):
sort of said to others I just want to save our friendships we're not let's not talk about this
um but then when you're staying in someone's house and you talk about everything anyway it's
just really hard and so in January it was it was really difficult and I was going back now
but I was also going for a wedding um and while I don't want the state involved in my relationship

(01:07:39):
I love weddings love so I was a real high and so Suki suggested I she helped me with it she said
why aren't you saying I'm here for a celebration I'm in this this place of you know happiness and
celebration I just kind of want to stay here and I and something about loving them I forget like

(01:08:01):
um and I just want to enjoy my time with you because I love you it was just very very positive
way to to talk about it worked well even things out not to even in January to not use the word
genocide and I was like okay how many do you need to not call it to call it genocide I mean
but anyway now they do not feel that the difference they say is that they to both of them don't feel

(01:08:23):
the need to bring up the attack on the on Israelis every time you talk about Palestine
today's episode is produced by Yarnay and Amran and Samantha Haley you can find us on instagram
at another education as possible for today's episode Rachel and Suki have identified the

(01:08:46):
organizations Green Olive Collective and Playgrounds from Palestine this place is to contribute if
you're able please do contribute to these amazing organizations we'll have more information on them
as well as information about Rachel and Suki on our socials thanks as always for listening
we'll be back soon with another episode of another education as possible

(01:09:32):
you