#355 - Full Flip Flop Mode - Archispeak

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Evan Troxel (00:09):
It's time for a therapy session, Cormac.

Cormac Phalen (00:11):
I need to re, I need to reboot my emotional router.

Are you running low on emotional energy?
Positive energy?
You're running low You got What's the

It, it's that end of year rush for everything to be done.

Yeah.

is.
Everybody wants to be done by theend of the year and you're like,

Everybody

yeah.

What's taking so long?
What's

Why aren't you done?

I want my stuff now.

Exactly.
So.
It's just one of these where,everything piles up, piles up, piles up.
And then of course there's the,Hey, what is your coverage for,
staffing during the Christmas time?
I mean, are you going to, are yougoing to be there available for us?

Wow.
The expectations are high.

it is always something that has kind of baffled me.
That we allow, essentiallyourselves to do this, right?
we've set the expectations.
Oh we'll be here whenever you need us.
And it's just like,

We're a service industry.
We serve.
We don't stop serving.
We serve all the time.

exactly, exactly.
Even McDonald's closes,sometime during the day.

So, speaking of that, my, my son, my, my youngest
son got a job at Chipotle, a

All right.

and there's two locations around us.
There's only two Chipotles around us.
I mean, I'm sure thereare many more near you.
the one that he doesn't workat is closed quite often.
And he was like telling me about this.
He's like, they justdon't have enough staff.
They just can't keep workers.

so they just close.

They just close.
Yeah.
I thought that was interesting.
I didn't think, I didn't knowthat was a thing that could
happen, but I guess it is.
I mean, that just shows you kind ofthe state of, I guess, many things.

Since my middle child is a big fan of that place, he,

Yeah, they're not

not a sponsor, but he always he's always thinking to
himself, okay, if I'm driving backto school, in the upper peninsula
and it's very rural up there,

How many Chipotles are on the way, Cormac?

there,

Does

what?
Once, once we leave the metroarea, there's literally one, one,

And so you, do you

and

time?
it a, you're going upthere this weekend, right?
Like,

I am going up there this week, so,

stop already?

well, it'll, it'll, it'll probably have, it'll be on the
way back, so, we will have him in the,

him up.
That's right.
You're

yes,

That makes

tis, tis the season.

Tis the season.

And we just got hit with I'm sure you're getting
ready for the winter time.

Cyclone.

Yeah.
Chopping wood and all that otherstuff, getting your, your little, yeah.
And but we just, we got hit withabout three inches last night.
And And that's just here.
I mean, I woke up, it was 10degrees with a negative, a wind
chill of negative, I think itsaid it was like a negative eight.

I was wondering why you're wearing like a

Yeah.

coat on the podcast here, because you got

Well,

there in that, that old house.

no, it was, to be quite honest with you, it was because I just
took the dog out before we recorded and I,

ran back in, sat down, I'm ready to go.
You're going to be

yeah.

layers off throughout this conversation.
Yeah, as

I will.

as you fill your soul because of your emotional

yes, and since he wasn't willing to come back in when I needed
him to come back in most of, no, he's notout there, but most of my, the feeling in
my extremities, they're still out there.
So, exactly.
So, yeah, that's, that's why I'vegot the layers the dress hoodie.

Yeah.
Dress hoodie.
Nice.

hoodie.

I didn't know there was

And check it.

but I like it.

I, I designate dress hoodies.
So this is more of like a sweater hoodie.
And so of course that has,that is a dress hoodie.
Right?
Yes.

what shall we call this, kind of, the quality of
attire gone way down since Covid,

Yes.
Yes.

sure.
It's like.
Every woman in an airport is wearingyoga pants for everything, right?
Like everywhere

Oh, you.

grocery and

You.

sweats and like, like

Yes.

when they go shopping.

You and I have both traveled this past week.

Yesterday

yes,

Yes.

I was back at the home office in Baltimore,
And it, it always baffles me,people's choice of travel attire.
I'm like, really?
Do I need to see your toes?
You do, you do it.

flip flops on

Yes.

But but then there's the opposite, right?
Which is the people with like the kneehigh lace up boots and like these crazy
belts that take forever to get offwhen they're going through security

Yeah.

and they're wearing three coats because, and they have to take

Yeah.

off and put all of those through.

Yeah.

It's What is going on?
Do you not know people this like this

Yeah.

got TSA precheck and by the way, like way too many
people have TSA precheck nowadays

Yeah.

to

Yeah.

that line is long,

Yeah.

I don't have to take all that stuff off and wait and I
get to go through the regular metaldetector, not like the full body,

Right.

right where people have to remove everything and I
have to wait for them to removeeverything, but I still see it.
And I'm just like, I literallysaw somebody yesterday on my 5 a.
m.
flight who had never flown before,and this person was in her 70s.
She, and she was talking about it,ever, ever been on an airplane before.
This is my first

Interesting.

And so, so that person, I would give a full pass.
Like you, you

Oh, yeah.
Yeah.

all of the, you wear slip ons, you don't wear a

right,

Like if you're a you know, a muggle, right?
And you have to go through normalairport security and you don't have

right,

check because you've never flown before.
Like there are certain things youmay not know, but then there are

right,

those of us who travel every once in a while.

yeah,

I am always like, what are you, like, you are literally, Going

it's like,

your flight because you have to

right,

whole boots, right?
You're Doc Martens that

it's like, come on, you've, you've had to do this before, or

but then there's the full flip flop mode, right?
Which is like,

yeah, and you're like, why, why,

the, the name of this episode is now full flip flop mode.

there you go, I love it, I love it, yeah, it's

Just

it's one of those,

cause

so,

the flip flops.

our office traditionally flies Southwest, especially for trips back
and forth to the office and other things.
It was one of our early businessmodels is we would do business
wherever Southwest flew and, we'veexpanded since then, for the most
part, we still have a relationshipwith Southwest, not a sponsor.
but would be awesome if they were.

Relationship with Southwest.

Yeah.

sure it

bit business relationship.

loving business relationship.

Yes.

mutually beneficial.

but

them money.

yes, exactly.
And they give,

with their policies.

yes.
And they give us a little bit of comedywhen they talk over the intercom.

Makes it
Worth it, right?

exactly.
But there is this family and hadto have been at least 10 members.
Flying that had neverflown Southwest before.
So did not understand theconcept of open seating

Yeah.

and constantly kept talking about, well, what do I do?
Where do I go?
I'm like, I, so I kindof turned around to him.
I'm like, Yeah, exactly.
I was just like,

this.

was like, honestly, it's really simple.
You don't have to worryabout looking for a seat.
You're in, a boarding group.
So you'll basically get on the plane.
You'll have plenty of overheadstorage, put your bag wherever
you're sitting because it, alsothe flight was only half full.
We, it was like 146 seatsand we only had 80 people.
So, it was perfectly fine.

(08:22):
Although that family, for some reason,they all tend to sit together in,
it's like, you don't have to sit,

to.

yeah,

Like you guys said, it's like the dinner table, right?

sure.
But, they just, they, for some reason,they couldn't fathom the concept of open
seating, and I'm like, it's not that hard.
You

it's

don't, yeah,

I mean,

yeah,

you're like, think of it as McDonald's.

right,

The, the dining room in Mc, you can pick any seat you want, right?
It's not a stadium.

and.

an

In the week prior, I was in, in New York city and I had a direct
flight or an indirect flight on Southwest

flight.

from Detroit to Chicago to New York flying in.
And I'm like, I can't do that again.
So I had a direct flight out fromNew York to Detroit and that one
was, assigned seats and everything.
And so.
You get on there and there's thisone guy who got on and he's starting
to get a little obstinate about it.

(09:23):
And he was just like, can I justsit in one of the seats up front?
Nobody's sitting there.
Like, no sir, this is assigned seating.
Somebody said, this isn't Southwest.
Go sit down.

Just the commentary from the back.

It was, he was the last person on the flight and he was trying
to negotiate, to like go and sit inone of the open first class seats.
And, yeah.

I mean, up for grabs, right?
Jeez.

Yeah, I was like, sure if you want to kick in that
extra, I don't know, like 76 bucks

mean, the seat's empty.
Just,

right.

make it, free, free for

You know, it's.

think.

So I always think about that.
I'm like, okay, if the event of anemergency, the plane goes down or
whatever, and you're like, seat17C, that's where Cormac was sitting.

right now.
You're like the you go into any spaceand you're like, where's the door?
Where's the way out of here?

Well, guess,

go into a restaurant and you're like, I need to be able
to see the door from my seat so thatI know in the event of an emergency,

need you guess where I always sit?
I'm always in the emergency exit, bros.

well, you want the leg room.
That's why you sitting in,

Oh, yeah, actually.

Really.
I can't even, I

Yeah.

You're, you're, you're not going,

I don't yeah.

about?
Like,

Just like, go ahead, take the, take that early, uh,

You're

you know, fire.

the door open for people.
That's what I'm.

Yeah, exactly.
It's in our nature, remember we talkedabout being in the service industry?

my part.

I always chuckle too, it's just like, in the case of an emergency,
landing, I'm like, if we're, landing inthe water, we went the wrong direction.
Yeah.
Exactly.

thought that many times too.
It's like, yeah, going to Hawaii.
Yep.
Makes sense.
Going to Phoenix, Arizona.
Nope.

Exactly.
You're like, uh, thereain't no water there.
you landed in somebody's swimming pool.

So I was in Colorado yesterday.
You've been traveling as well.
And it

Yes.

my homework assignment that I assigned to you.
Do you

Ah.

How many states have you been in this year?
This is like

Oh, this year.

this was a homework assignment probably three or four
episodes ago, and I fully expectedto talk about it as like the
opening thing for the next episode.
And then things happened, and

Right.

came back to it.
So, it

Right.

in my memory this morning, Oh yeah, we have this homework assignment.
How many, how many tiny little stateshave you been in this year, Cormac?
Because that's, you seem to,you know, go to the tiny ones.
How

Nobody's Nobody's grab

music while this is happening, while you

Nobody's grabbing my phone to pull up the maps so
I can look at and look and count.

Oh, that's interesting.
That's interesting how you, youwant to, you look at the map to,
to think about where you've been.

Yeah, cause

just memory, but also photos.
I tend to like look through

Uh, no, that's true.

see, oh, like I've just kind of scrolled back a ways
and it was refreshing my memory.
I see you did not do your homework.

Well, the homework was, like, a few weeks ago,
and if the professor didn't I'm

How many students show up like this, like you?
They're like,

I might All the time.
I have Uh, I don't know if

your model?

Yeah.
Oh, don't get me started.
They're, they're,

Oh,

I don't know.

there now.

Tomorrow as of this recording, tomorrow is
their last day of the semester.

Oh,

And then the following Wednesday, is their final presentations.
And there is a,

to be done tomorrow,

but everything has to be turned in tomorrow, close of business.

there's going to be like you where it's like, Oh, it's going to sit
on the shelf at that plan check and we'regoing to slip some sheets in at the end.

I'm currently at 27 this year.

But they're tiny states.
You just go to

Where, where, where, you didn't,

states.

how many big states, have I been in?
Well, you didn't say like,what is the average area of the
states that you have been in?
I don't know,

I'm

but I'll tell, I'll tell you what,

back, I'm doing round

you can, you can get through, you can get
through Rhode Island like that.

Yeah.
Does that count?
That's on your list?
Because you went to Nova Scotia, yeah.

Yeah,

through a bunch

mean,

yeah.

I went through them.

So, I just made marks on two states that I had not been to before.
So you got, you have newstates on your list too?
Like states that youvisited for the first time?

Honestly, yes.
Because of all of the drivingthat I've driven on the East
Coast, I had never been to Maine.
I've been near Maine,but never been to Maine.

Okay,

And finally I get to check Maine off of that list.

Nice.

Because I only had, in the continental U.
S., I think I only had seven.
That I have not been to, and

Oh, I

Maine was one of them.

out.
I should look at that.
I, it's way more for me because Idon't live on the East Coast, so.
And, and I

And because they're small states, and

they're small states, yeah, so they're disqualified.

Exactly.

and, and the, like, the middle of the
country, like, who goes there?
I fly

Yeah.

I don't go through that part.

I've driven through there on occasion or two.
And wow.
There are, there are somestates that are incredibly flat.

There are.

flat.

them myself this summer.
So two states on my list of 14.
I, 14 big states on my list, Cormac.
And,

cute driving that home.

and Florida were both new to me.
So,

Really, you knew that you hadn't been to Florida,
but I didn't realize that youhadn't been to South Dakota.

Yeah.
That was the, that was one of thereasons we decided to do that trip
was because we had not been there.
It was like, we were going to do the tripand then we weren't going to do the trip.
And we were

Right.

something like that.
We had.
We had probably done before becauseit was a logistics thing with people
who were going to join us on the trip.
And so then we'd like,no, like, let's do it.
We should do it becausewe haven't done it.

Right.

what really drove the drive were.

My wife and I talk about this and I say, well, combined,
we've hit all of the continental U.
S.
states.
And then, obviously only Alaska andHawaii are the only ones remaining.

What are you waiting for, man?
Those are ones that are amazing.
Get to it.

Well, I look at, I look at Hawaii this way, and
wait to, I just wait for it.

I can't wait for this.

What is the predominant thing in, in in Hawaii?
What,

Like, I don't know.

yeah, beaches, they go to beaches.
I was raised in Florida, Iknow what a beach looks like.
I don't need to go to, I don't needto fly somewhere else to do the same
thing that I did when I was growing up.

let me tell you why Hawaii should be on your list, Cormac.

No, trust me, Hawaii is on my list.
Oh, see, there you go.
If you want to put a notch in your beltof all the small states, go to that one.

Right?
Since it's all beaches.
know what's interesting about that isif you go to the Big Island of Hawaii,
there are very few beaches actually.
It's, it's, it's not aboutgoing to the beach on the Big

I'm pretty positive that the whole word island includes beaches

No, you know why?

all the way around them.

it's all lava.
Like it's actually likecliffs and lava flow

Does land meet water?

it does, but

It's a beach.

not the definition of a beach.
Beach is where the sand and the wateroverlap in a very nice shallow manner.
Yeah.
Like that,

Wait

what a beach is.
I,

So you're romanticizing beaches, and now that you've finally
been to Florida Clearly you haven'tbeen to those beaches that un arom

beaches.
I

unromanticize.

I wasn't, I was not on the coast of Florida.
Yeah.
I was in Gainesville.
So that right in the middle of

Oh, yeah.

yeah.

Yeah, that's that's country.

Yeah.
Right.
I

That's the D?
Yeah

where I talked about that, it's very rural.
It's very like where I live.
So,

Well, I don't, I mean, we don't call that
rural, we call that the sticks.
and as, and as, and asyou've seen, it's the sticks.

It is.

It's the backwoods, it's backwater, it's con, it's country.
All right.
So, I have this question for you.
Because I've heard through all ofour, students as they're talking about

(18:38):
their project and stuff, a word, twowords used to mean the same thing.
And I don't know why it,I didn't point it out.
I just let them go with it andall that other stuff, but I
don't know why it was bugging me.

Okay.
Yeah, I knew it.
I knew that this was bothering you.
I

Yes.

this.
Yes.
Mm hmm.

and pre existing.

Hmm.
Is this like occupancy and post occupancy?

No, we're talking about the existing building that
they're doing, that their assignmentis to do an adaptive reuse.

Yeah.

And so they'll say and there's one particular kid who
will use existing and pre existingto explain the existing building over
and over and over again, back andforth, back and forth, back and forth.

He uses both words interchangeably.
Mm

I've heard other people, professionals, using the word, pre
existing and existing to explain anexisting building or existing conditions.
And I look at it, awesome, becauseI looked at it this way and I'm just

(19:54):
like, okay, Isn't technically thedefinition of pre existing something
that exists before that thing existed?

Yeah, right.
Pre

so It's so

bring up occupancy and post occupancy.
Like,

Right.

the term post occupancy.
That would, to me, mean after, it's not,it's not after the moment of occupancy.
It's like

Right.

right?
And

Well

we do these post occupancy evaluations, and it's

Right.

Well, well, no, it's just an occupant.
It's not post

Right.

You're not done with the thing.
You're

Well, I think I Now, I will say this.
I think the reason why they usethat as a, discerning factor between
the two is because so early on in aproject before either a project is
occupied or even materialized, we useoccupancy to determine all sorts of
different things, construction type,

Yeah.

Egress, all of these other things.
So we're always using occupancyas a very specific thing.
Whereas post occupancy is okay.
Everybody is now finally in the building.

We're done.
The design team is done.

Yes, we are done.
The construction team is done.
Everybody is done.
Keys are handed over to the theuser groups and now they are
there and they are occupying it.
And so post occupancy is like,typically for us, we typically do
what about, you know, like a yearafter we want to go back, see how it's

(21:29):
holding up, see what's worked, whathasn't worked and things like that.
So,

I

so I sort of get it.

accept this.
I

Okay.

This is, this, that was well stated, well stated, and Accepted.

So what did chat GPT say about existing

So it says, it

and pre existing?

related, but have subtle differences in nuance and context.
Existing definition refers to somethingthat is currently in place or present
at the moment being considered.
Okay.
There's a lot of more information here.
Pre existing refers to somethingthat was in place or present before
a certain point in time or beforeanother condition or event occurred.

(22:07):
Is that subtle enough for you?

It's muddy enough.
It's, it does it,

Key differences.
I see this is what'sso great about ChatGPT.
It actually, like, explains things.

right?

difference.
Existing focuses on what is present now.
Pre existing adds a temporaldimension indicating prior

Ooh,

relative to a specific point in time.

interesting.

So, existing is present state.
Pre existing is prior state.
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(24:18):
And now back to the conversation.

Okay.
So let's, fast forward to, wehave a project that was assigned.
It is a existing building and theexisting conditions that they were
assigned to then do an adaptive reuse.

Right.

Is there any time in that conversation where you would
use the term pre existing when you'retalking about the existing building?

Yes.
So existing could be, I mean,it could about it this way.
Like it could be

You're being my English teacher here.

it

You and ChatGBT.

it, it could, it's whatever state it's currently

Right, right, right, right.

the project.
Pre

Yeah.

be like when it was vibrant and being used in a certain way.
That's how I would kind ofdistinguish between the two.

So and I, and so I will accept that answer is, is, is the fact
that, so when you're saying that, you wantto take this existing building back to its
preexisting conditions and, you know, aspart, as, as part of a restoration or, the

(25:25):
vibrancy of, that, and you're trying tore, recapture the preexisting conditions,
because, this particular building, theexisting conditions are exactly that.
An abandoned building, kind of,gutted out, and needs a lot of love.
It's pre existing conditions,so now I'm getting it now, but

right.

they're using it wrong.

student wasn't making such a

Yes,

just

they're not making that distinction.

both words for the same thing.

Yeah nor were the few professionals that we were talking
about that had the similar usage.
And so, I will,

You're gonna prof

I have,

on them.

I have, well, I'm sitting here listening to it and they're, talking
about all the pre existing conditions andI'm just thinking you, you mean existing,
you mean existing, you mean, yeah,

and you think about, like, what you label on drawings as notation.

exactly.

E in parenthesis, existing, this,

Exactly.

pre exist, not

Or we use like, you know, the, the gray hatch to denote,
you would put it in our legend thatsays, gray hatch denotes existing
conditions, yada, yada, yada.
And then,

now you bring up a new one.
You just said denote vs.
note.
So, so, what's thedefinition of denote vs.
note?

God dang it, I was trying to get out of here as one for
one, tied and call it done, Uh, yes.

Okay, so let's talk about crunch time.
So you said that thestudents final deliverable is
tomorrow, and then they have

Deliverables.

so

Multiple plurals.

this little rest period, which is awesome.
Like that

Yeah.

when I

Oh no, not at all.
We, we, tell me you weren't doing thesame thing that I was doing, that you
were literally, like, Evan, you'regoing to be presenting at nine o'clock.
So at 8 55, you're like holdingsomething, waiting for the glue to dry.

Yes,

Yeah,

Rendering, still

exactly.

And, and,

Yeah.

I mean,
this is, I think this is a beautifuladjustment in the education system, which

Yeah.

get your sleep,
and now, and now focus on the story and

yeah,

going to say and what you're going to point at and how

right.

deliver that rather than I'm half asleep and I'm sleeping
through everybody else's presentation

Yes.
Yeah.

to the conversation during the crits, right, during the

Right.

The

Exactly.
And the thing, I mean, granted, it isstill, it's what we should be doing, but
it's not what we do in the profession.
give yourself that little bit.
He's just like, okay, we're done.

you

You know?

mean, this is interesting.
I had this conversation yesterdaywhen I was in Denver, and it was
like, there are certain people whooperate where it's like, we're done.
We got it done, we set the deadline,we did it, and now it's done done.
Like, we do something else,we rest, we whatever, right?

Right.
Yeah,

there's time left, people, and time left means work more,

exactly.
Right.
Just like, well, we were like, tweaking ornoodling on a presentation that, you know,
for a new project that we're going after,

Design's never

up and up until the very end.
And you're just like, why, why,why are we doing that to ourselves?

Right.

Shouldn't we be preparing ourselves for that presentation
or something like that, feelingrested, feeling ready you know, so.

even appreciate this, or, or, I,

Oh, no, they, they, they, they,

way, but I, I, I assume that they do.

They all asked, if we're not presenting till Wednesday,
why can't we work through the weekend?

this is your opportunity to say,

And this is, oh,

screwed.
Come on.

and it's not like I, it's just like, look, there's a lot of
things, and I basically said exactlywhat you had said is like, think about
the ability for you to rest, relax, beprepared practice your presentations.
it like the bulk of what they'regoing to be presenting is what's in
their head, not what's on the paper.

(29:24):
They're going to be talking through it andthings like that and being familiarized
with not only their part, but everybodyelse's part, just in case I love how,
presentations, you're able to say, well,if you, if you remember what, Evan just
said about this, what we did was we tookthis and we did this, kind of thing.
And so it kind of shows thatthe team worked together, right?

(29:45):
And, when you have the time to actuallygo through your presentations, a few
times, then, you're really prepared.
And, and I will say that I'mactually impressed with a lot
of the different presentationstyles that these kids are doing.
there are some that, you clearly seethat they, there's that one person
or other person that didn't, eitherdidn't contribute or doesn't really

(30:07):
feel very comfortable and so theydon't really do much of the talking.
And those are the ones that I would loveto see taking this period of time to get
more comfortable with the presentation,being able to present so that they can
get over that phobia of presenting.

Is this their first, like, where are they in their educational

this is their, this is the last semester, sorry, this is the
first semester of their fourth year.
So this is a four plus two.

plenty of experience

So they have plenty of experience.
Yeah.

so there's not like this new experience of
learning how to communicate this,

Exactly.

they

Exactly.

some tools already in their tool belt

Yep.

the, how this is going to go down and

Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah.

So, so an interesting thing that, that.
up in my conversation yesterdayis the guy that I was talking with
had an architectural professor whoactually gave not just deadlines,
like you give your students deadlines.
They

Yeah.

them an amount of time to be able to do a thing.
So

Yeah.

you get four hours to do this.
You get eight hours to do this.
and not like an open ended,the deadline's on Monday.
So, so 24, seven untilthen, just go, go, go.
It's, it

Right.

how it was in our education.
Right.
And

Yeah.

professor would actually say, I think is really interesting.
And I would love it to hear kind ofwhat you think about that, because
that's, this is the real world, likeworking in an office in billable time.
I mean, it's kind of like this, right.
But it's like, you get, You have thismany hours to work on this part of
the project and what can you get done?

(31:41):
And I think that kind of prepares youeven in a, let's just say a different way.
I was going to say better, but maybe it'sjust a different way to think about it.
Right.
Where it's like, no, really,you get four hours to do this.
Let's see what you can do.
in four hours and some people are goingto do better than others, but, but I
think that time constraint, not just adeadline, but an actual number of hours

(32:01):
to do a thing in a service industry,

Right.

very real.
Uh, like that's an interesting take on it.

Well, I mean, and if you think about this, that, if you do
something like that, or you do thatexercise and you start to give yourself
that time constraint, when you'reworking in practice, that actually
helps you out in, let's just think aboutit in more practical terms of like,
billable hours and things like that.
a lot of times people want to continueto noodle on, designs, all the way

(32:31):
through construction documents.
giving yourself those time constraintsof saying, okay, design's done.
Now we're doing this.
Now this is done.
Now this is done.
And being efficient with your useof time and kind of in the exercise
that they're talking about, it'slike, you've got eight hours to
do this and four hours to do this.

(32:51):
It's preparing you to forceyourself to say, okay, I'm done.
I can't work on this anymorebecause I have another task that,
the clock starts on another taskand I've got to get that done.
And then all of these tasks combinedultimately leads to like the deliverables,
which is what a client's looking for.
They don't care what ittakes to get to where it is.

(33:14):
They know what they're expecting.
They're expecting renderings ordrawings or, a model delivery
or something like that.
They're expecting the final product.
And they don't care how you get there,just as long as at that deadline that you
agreed upon, that you're giving them thefull, comprehensive, fully coordinated
end result of all of that effort.

(33:36):
The problem is that a lot oftimes we deliver that end result.
and there's holes in it or, uncoordinateditems and things like that, because we
didn't stick to the, four hours to dothis, move on to the next one, eight hours
to do this, move on to the next one, kindof the conveyor belt type, system of,

line.

you know,

we know design isn't necessarily like

right, right, right, right, right, right.

it's like navigating that.
But I

Yeah,

because how long does design take?
answer is design takesas long as it takes.
And

exactly.

can

Yes.

like what they're actually paying for is your
expertise to deliver, a product

Right.

what you can do in four hours.
Like to me in the educational paradigm,that's where this exercise comes in handy.
Right.

Yeah.

so let's see how prepared you are.
Let's

Exactly.
Yeah.

have to do this thing in this amount of time.
And then let's talk about it becauseit's a safe place to do that,

Right.

no actual contract on the line here and it does prepare you because
it's like, when does creativity strike?

Right.

it strikes, it

Exactly.

it strikes in the shower, it strikes on the drive, into the office,
but through, by doing the exercise and

Yes.

all the time to do

Yeah.

then you have way more command over it and you can use your
tools and experiences and your skills thatyou've developed over time and being in
school, like that's still very early for

Right.

stuff,

Right.

to get you in the mindset of

Yeah.

that all fits together,

And I was, I tried in the process of this last,
work or work for requirements.
I tried to get them to think aboutit in ways of, cartooning it out.
Okay.
You already know what is expectedof you as your deliverable.
Cartoon it out.
Start working on and creating assignmentsfor each of the team members on who

(35:29):
can do what, play to their strengths,play to, the previous works that had
already been accomplished, then setyourself and then assign them that work.
But at the beginning, now youhave what we ended up doing in our
work three assignment was they.
a group of six, paired off intotwos and each of them came up with a

(35:50):
different take on a, a specific design.
And so now you had three designsat the end, still in that group.
So now you have three designs.
Well, work four is you takethose three designs and you
create one comprehensive design.
And of course, that'sgoing to be tough, right?
You get six people to try to agreeon, like, give up either, something

(36:11):
that they've been working on towork on somebody else's work or try
to figure out how to, like, makethis kind of comprehensive design
between the three different ideas.
And it's tough.
Totally get it.
But, you know, like, there's stillup until, this past studio, they're
still making design decisions onsomething that they literally have.

(36:34):
I feel like you've got, you havefive days to get it all done and
get all of the presentation, all ofthe deliverables, everything done.
And these were decisions thatshould have, these have impacts
on everybody else's work.
That you're still making these,design decisions, you should
have stopped, put a pin in it.

(36:55):
I kept stressing, and I don't know,I was listening to a podcast or
an audiobook or about something.
And, the mantra kept coming, and I've saidthis before at work, and I've said this a
lot in studio, is progress not perfection.
Keep working to get, to advance it.

(37:17):
This technically at this stage,it's, we're only really expecting
sort of like a DD level, right?
And so I always say, you know,progress over perfection.

in an,

Not, not full C,

studio.

not, well, you know, this is a technological school,

That's

you know.

I want buildable construction

Well, I mean, they are, they are doing, so what's
interesting is they, one of,

an adaptive reuse project in downtown Detroit, that

yeah,

would normally take an architectural firm years to complete.

ex, exactly,

In one

Yeah minor correction, cause I know somebody's going to
be listening to this, that willcorrect me, so, it's Flint, not
Detroit, that they're working in.
Yeah, but, so there, there you go, Kurt.

correction.

But, yes but anyway it, it was, it's just interesting
that, this was this conversation thatwe were having, it was, it's like,
this is the first time that they'veactually done, group work, and of
course everybody hates the group work.

First time,

First time.

group

of course, yeah, we, yeah, I was going to say, like, we
did group work a lot differently.
Now their next course, their last,the last semester of their fourth
year, they're going to be doingcomp design and it's an, it, they're
going back to just individuals.
So it's, what it means is taking all ofthe things that you learned in all of
the years up to that final one and doinga comprehensive project that takes all

(38:46):
of those principles that you learned.
Urban design.
Construction, HVAC, design,all of these things.
And it kind of becomes, soyou're basically showing off.
He's like, okay, what did you learn?
Show me in this oneproject what you learned.
And I love that idea, honestly.
It's, you're basically forcing themto show you, put on display, what

(39:08):
exactly they did actually learn.
And so, and it'll make the grading aheck of a lot easier than the group
projects because, sometimes you do thegrading where, in a group, the group
did, the group finished very strong,but, there are those weak links within
the group that, you sort of have to,you look at it more as a group, not a,
an individual, and so sometimes they'rekind of skating by a little bit, so.

the whole group get the same grade or do the
individuals get their own grades?

The.
I'll let we'll invite Kurt onand we can talk a little bit
more comprehensively about that.
But ultimately, like how I'm gradingit's based off of the group grade,
the group work and everything else.

performers suffer, the low performer, like it's Oh, that's

Which is, which is, if you think about it, which
is like the profession, right?

that is the profession.

That is exactly the profession.

In an academic environment, though, everybody's grades, like,
are, they're tied to something else.
They're tied to scholarships.
They're tied

There, there's, and there are other factors
that we put into this, so.
There, it's not a complete, oneand done individual meeting.
Your group did great.
This is the grade you get, your groupdidn't really perform very well.
This is the grade you get.
It's not quite that.
There are other factors andstuff that go into it when you're
factoring the individual grades.
And so that's why I said thatthere's, somebody who's been

(40:28):
doing it a lot more than I have.
This is, my first semester.
My, my co teachers, my co professors,they would be the ones that could tell
you that a little bit better than I can.

Yeah,

I can just tell them that this, that,

go back to these deliverables.
I'm interested in how.
So, so how hard lined areyou about deliverables and
what is in the presentations?
Because, I mean, the one thingthat always made sense to me, like,
there was always this list of,

yes,

got to have site plan, floor plans,

yes,

sections, whatever,

yep,

the things are and a model and, you know, some
renderings, perspectives, whatever

yep,

those

yep,

done many different ways.
but to me, it was alwayslike, what serves the project?
What serves the story?
What serves the narrative

yes, yeah,

and not necessarily going like strictly,

so,

person who like, I literally did all the things.

yeah,

then when I gave the presentation, I talked about the
things that, that mattered when

yes.

to communicating.

and that's the expectation, yes.

some things that don't make sense when it
comes to the narrative and to

So that's, so, so, I was trying to explain to him,
like, this is sort of like, here'syour code minimum project, right?

Code minimum.

exactly.
So here's the perspectiveof this is what you need.
If there are some other things that,you know, tell the story better than
those particular things, we'll have thatconversation with them ahead of time.
So we'll know, it's just like, hey,I decided to do, a, instead of doing
renderings, I did an animated walkthrough.
You know, things like that.
Or,

Yeah.

of doing this, I did this because, and so, we're pretty forthcoming
with, there's flexibility in that becauseit's really all about the narrative.
It's about, how you tell thestory about what you accomplished
for, because at DD, we're reallystill talking about design, right?
We're, we want to talk about howwe are servicing the client through

(42:26):
design, but also servicing the designthrough like the technical aspects.
And so however you best tell that story.
is acceptable, but at the veryminimum, here are some of the
things that you need to think about.
If some of these don't quite tell yourstory, but you know, we are finding that
a lot of people are trying to adhere to,at least that, that basic understanding

(42:51):
that, I've got, plan, section, elevation,I've got site plan, I've got, this,
I've got that, There's a bunch of otherthings that they are integrating their
lab work into the final studio project.
So there's a lot ofthings that go into it.
And some of those sort of startto muddy up the conversation.
So it's how do you distill it downto very, being very clean, very

(43:12):
concise, very clear exactly what it is.
We were walking through and I was,it was, on this past studio, it was
more me having the conversationswith them about going through and
pointing out okay, you see that rightthere, did you intend to do that?
They're like, well, you know, no,we're still trying to work this out.

(43:34):
Or we're not sure if that's somethingthat we want to put in our presentation.
I'm like, if it's something that hasn'tbeen fully baked, fully thought out and
fully understand by you, Don't put itin the presentation, because if somebody
asks you about that, you're going tostammer, you're going to, not be very
confident about how you are explaining it.

(43:55):
It's like, there's, there's nopoint in having things in there
that you're not ready to defend.
And so, they're like, but whatif it's part of, our requirement?
Then find something else that istelling your story, that you can
defend, that you can best illustrateyour design work on, instead of that.
It's like you've got likeeverybody built models either in

(44:17):
Rhino or in Revit or whatever.
Everybody has all sorts of informationthat they've already created.
There are better ways to tell the stories.
And if some of them, are, cause I always,my biggest criticism on, architectural
presentations in general are, as weget too deep into minutiae, a lot.

(44:37):
Where we don't need to be, especiallywhen we're trying to do high level
conversations with people who have noidea what the hell we're talking about.

Yeah, for sure.

You know?

I agree with that.
And I think one of the problemswith having a list of deliverables

Right.

is, and I want to reframe this conversation, not around
just like requirements, because Ithink, you know, it's education.
It's its own thing.
But there's this idea of like,look at our drawing sets.
And, How much is in our drawingsets that nobody ever looks at?
And it's totally in there becausewe've always done it that way,
because it's cover your ass.

I could tell you because I'm, I could tell you because
I've been receiving a bunch of RFIs.
It's like,

Mm hmm.

you're not even looking at the drawings.

Well, there's there's that.
But there is also a lot ofstuff that just absolutely

There's,

be in there.

yeah, there's a lot of like redundancy or unnecessaries, or there's
things that are conflicting between youreither base of design or performance
specs and your drawings that arecompletely contradictory to each other.
And then you're like,

copied and pasted details

yeah, exactly, exactly, right, yeah,

and this is

yeah,

up.
It's like, you've got to do allthis stuff and make it look like
you have done all this stuff.
And, and there's a problem with thatbecause it doesn't serve the purpose
of what you're actually trying to do.

And, and I've,

is better and

yeah.

not true.

And I told them, this is, this is, now it may not be
popular to the other two professorsin the studio or to the school in
general, but I basically said, it'slike, don't do any more work than you
need to do to tell the story, period.
Like, I don't need to gointo it and explain it.
It's like, if, in fact, like,I was sort of editing for

(46:24):
them, like, do you need that?
Is that going to be partof your presentation?
Like, no then, we don'tneed to talk about it.
You know, you know,

simplify it, keep it simple.

exactly,

I think that the part that comes in where it gets a little
difficult is you don't know whatthe jury is going to ask of you

right, right,

know what they're going to hone in on.
And it may not be on your agenda, right?
It might be on their agenda.

mm hmm, yeah,

then you may want to have your stash of

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

renderings or whatever that you could pull out that aren't
on the boards but still like Ilove your idea of pre editing and

yes,

simplifying the message, right?
Because a clear communicativepresentation is super

yeah,

and like you said like you get lost in the minutia
at the high level because you wantto show The expertise and it's

Look at all the work that I've done.

It's

You know,

much.

I want to prove my, I want to prove the fees that I'm charging you.
You don't need to, prove thatyou're, they hired you for a reason.
What they want to know is, can deliver aclear, concise project that isn't going
to, cause confusion when it's out inthe field and being constructed because

(47:37):
you left something off because youfocused on something else or whatever.
I mean, it's just this clean,comprehensive, I keep going back
to comprehensive, but I mean,it's just like, and that's how
I look at our presentations too.
It's just like, We spend so much timetrying to either, justify, look at

(47:58):
all, it's like, well, we did all thiswork, so we've got to show it, right?
Like, no, you don't.
You don't have to show it all.

through your sketchbook too.
No.

It was, I remember one presentation that I was asked to, pull
together and they're like, Oh, you gotto show them all of like your, your early
sketches about like, you were showinglike all these hand joints and you were
like, the way that you were showing,like the bones of the hand, man, making
kind of this, it was this whole littlething that I was doing, based off of some
work that Archwork, steel archwork thatI was showing with, these articulated

(48:30):
joints and all of this other stuff.
And, and, you know, as a brief kindof like concept, that maybe that might
be something of interest is like,this is, the inspiration, but, just
sit there and kind of like drone onabout like, wax poetic about things
that they don't really care about.

No, you know, what's cool about, about this, just what
you're bringing up right now.
I

Yeah.

is great to show that, but literally that image
is on a slide for one second

Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

thing.

Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, I don't think that it's like,you know, a throwaway, but it's like,
or even, one of the things that I sawa presentation for the building that
we're working on with with Renzo andthe, it's this Stavros building up
for Johns Hopkins University campus.
And the presentation, the very firstopening slide was just, this big blue.

(49:20):
page mostly all blue with theRenzo sketch at the very beginning.
That's the last, yeah, that's thelast time you see that sketch.
Although you do see that sketch onlike, the construction but it's like
this very gestural kind of like sketch.
It's not anything that makesa lot of sense, but it's
like the idea, it's the seed.

(49:42):
And so, you don't really sitand like focus on or talk a
lot about the cover sheet.
You just move on.
So you see the cover sheet.
ever so quickly, and then you move on.
And that's the thing is it's like, ifyou want to talk about it, Ooh, what
was that, that, you know, gesturalsketch that I saw at the very beginning?
Well, that was, the seedthat started all of this.
Now let's go through this,

Yeah, yeah.

and yeah.
So it's interesting to see how wefocus the way that we tell the story.
I was trying to also explain to them,because this is another pet peeve
of mine, is that we are, we alwaysconsistently think that we need to
give presentations to other architects.

(50:26):
Other architects are not our clients.
Other architects are not in the room.
We don't have to sit thereand do all of the ARCA speak.
That, on the other hand, istrademarked because it's ours.
It's like, but

with you.
I think architects suck at this.
I think

Yeah, they do.

terrible at this.
And I've worked with manyarchitects who say way too much.

Way too much.

the audience.

Right.

the faster you can engage the jury into a discussion, the better.

Yeah.

That is

Yeah.

the way that it needs to work.
And, and so it's a little bitcontradictory to what you just
said, because they're probablyarchitects and you are speaking to
architects and you get to use theARCA speak in those conversations,
but ultimately that's not what yourtraining is to speak to normal people,

But, but even, even that though, when you're in a jury
and you're talking to other architectsabout architecture and stuff, there is
still a way for you to You know, haveyour presentation embody the essence
of the design philosophy and, all ofthis precedent study and everything

(51:30):
else that you've done without havingit be too cumbersome, having it be too
heavy of, you really do want to get tothe conversation, really talk about it.
You did all of this work, and so if,as, a group of architects, you want
to delve a little bit deeper into it.
you will, and you're prepared to becauseyou've done all of this work, have it,

(51:50):
as you said, kind of have it as thosehidden slides that you can talk about
a little bit later if you need to.

huge.

Yeah.

the power of the pause and not just

Yes.

spewing information and overdoing it, like not

Right.

to explain every little detail.

Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.

or to feel the weight of what you just said.
It's not their turn.

Yes.

else's turn to talk.
When there's a

Right.

there are many people who will take advantage of that.

Right.

it, if it's not their place, know, put your hand up, stop them.
That's not, this is not the time yetfor you to jump in, like, there will
be space for you in a minute, right?

Yeah.

that pause and learning how to communicate in a way that actually
lands with somebody is super important.
And not telling every littledetail, leaving things for
you to weave back in and let

Right.

go where it's going to go is so, so powerful, so useful
in these kinds of interactions.

It.
Reminds me, we were talking about musicepisode or two ago, and we were talking
specifically about things like Violatoralbum, Depeche Mode's Violator album.
And so the second that you saidthat, that pause, I just thought
of the the song, Enjoy the Silence.
and it starts off with, enjoy the silence.

(53:17):
And then it just like, does this little,almost like a pin drop kind of sound.
And then it pauses for a secondand then it starts the song.
And it's like, you're sort of preparingyourself for what's next and absorbing
it and getting ready to think about thenext thing instead of being kind of like,

right?

Yes.

Yes.
It's setting the stage

Yeah.
Yeah.

That's, that's a, that's a, that's a great

Right.

to that.
We're going to have to linkto that so people can hear it.

Yes.
Yes.

Any other presentation tips that you have?
I mean, this

You don't,

yourself, I think, is,

yeah,

right?
And, and

yes,

that time, like the work is not done.
The deliverables have been prepared, but

yes.

in your brain, your subconscious, you're actively like
going over these things beforeyou're going to actually say them
out loud in, in like practice mode.
Right.
Is super, super, super importantbecause this is your one
chance to make that impression.
You're not going to getanother chance to do it.

mean, you know, honestly it's edit, edit, edit.
And what I mean by that is thelast time that I had, that I was
on a project pursuit presentation.
I just had a few slides to talk about.
There's, a lot of other peopletalking about a lot of other things
and so I was just a, a small partbasically talking about how we
would implement the design into theexisting or pre existing conditions.

Whichever word works.

Whichever word works.
But, so I had written somethingand the first one was four pages.
Then the second, time I had kind of like,I, went through and I talked about it,
talked about it, looked at the slides,talked about how I would be talking about
it and me, I need to kind of like talkabout it, like go up to the slide and

(55:10):
like, you know, use my hands to kind ofindicate like what it is that I'm, you
know, you know, trying to talk about.
Cause I talk with my hands.
So as I was doing that, I startedto realize, Oh, well, I don't
really need to talk about that.
I can just, do this and showthem how, like through gesture,
how to connect all of that.
And then the, then it became, two, twosheets, then it came, became one and a

(55:31):
half sheets, then it became one sheet.
Then it basically became about threequarters of a sheet of just words that
I wanted to make sure that I said thatconvey the idea of the constructability
aspects of this project and how wewould be able to implement them.
And as long as I said that, nomatter how I said it, just as long

(55:54):
as I delivered it, very comfortablyand talked about all of that other
stuff, then, then we would be fine.
And so, I edited and edited and editedto, to get to a point where I felt
comfortable with like the mastery ofwhat it was that I was trying to say.
And honestly that's like thebiggest thing is like edit it
down, constantly edit yourself.

(56:16):
Question, you know, like sitback and pretend that you're the
actual person being presentedto instead of the presenter.
And say, you know, and look atthe slide deck and say, okay,
what am I trying to say here?
You know, is it going to be clearand understandable to the people who
are looking at that slide that, theinformation that I'm going to be talking

(56:37):
about when that slides up on the board?
Because, these presentationsare, twofold, right?
For architecture, it'svisual and audio, right?
And so you got to know what to say.
to support what you see on the screen.
And if you say too much, or if youread like the bullet points and
stuff like that, then you lost them.

(56:59):
You know?

totally.

And so,

on it.
Give that

yes,

that practice presentation to somebody else and be

exactly.

get feedback, real time feedback before you

Yep.

do it.

Exactly.
Exactly.
So

So,

be one of the things that we'll be talking about.

how, how these groups present.
Is it going to be oneperson takes the lead?
Are they all going to contribute?

So, so

what

every, everybody will have to present.
And each person is kind of like,they've broken it down into like,
what were they working on and howare they going to talk about it?
And my advice to themwas, is, since you're.
You worked on this part,you talk about this part.
So you have the masterybecause you did it.
So You're gonna be the onethat gives that presentation.

(57:43):
Don't let somebody else give thatpresentation Because they don't know
what you were intending to do whenyou did that So then the conversation
when it comes back around to say yourclient or the, people you're presenting
to ask questions about, say thatparticular thing, then you're the one
who's going to be responding to it.

You

again,

to jump in.

you know, you know, who's it.
And so everybody's going to be doing that.
Everybody had a part to play in a rolethat they were assigned from themselves.
One person did, the model building andone person did this, there's, they've
got two models that they had to do aneight scale model that kind of fits into
a contextual, a site contextual model.
And then a quarter scale detail modelthat kind of shows a wall section that

(58:29):
shows how the assembly goes together andall of, materials and everything else.
And so, it's kind of an interesting thingand one of the things that, I kind of
encourage them to do is some of their,wall sections that they have, as part
of their deliverables reflects what,like, say their quarter scale model is
so that when that comes up on the screenand they're talking about the person who

(58:51):
built the model can go and talk about it.
And so now you have the model in your handwhen you're looking up on the screen and
you can see all the details and they'retalking through, and here's where the
brick is and this is this and this isthis and they're holding it in their
hands so that they can actually see.
Oh.
You know,

Make the

a phys,

Yeah.

physical representation of the thing that
they're talking about on the screen.
And, it's like, you're makingall of these tools, use them.

Yeah.

just let some, don't just do it because you've
satisfied the assignment and nevertalk about it or never use it.
Make sure everything that you use isextremely deliberate to what you're
saying, what you're presenting.
And, if you don't use it

Yeah.

Don't present it.

So, so it'll be interesting to see how they plan their presentation

Yeah.

it's this transition that the handoffs aren't abrupt

Yeah.
Yeah.

and that they've thought about it ahead of time.
And who's going to say what, when,if that's going to, you know,

Yeah.

we've been through interviews

Yeah.

somebody is not supposed to say a lot of stuff
and they just go on and on and on.
And then other people don'tget to say the thing because

Cormac Phalen (01:00:03):
Yes.

Evan Troxel (01:00:03):
minutes to

Yup.
Yeah.

there's these real kind of psychological and.
characteristic things that, that peopledo based on their personalities, right?
They just go into

Yeah.

of how they normally operate when it's a, it is a team effort and

Yeah.

to, you've got to stick to your part so that it
becomes the ensemble that it's

Exactly.
So funny you say that becauseone of that presentation, I
was telling you about that.
I kind of whittled it down from likefour pages to, three quarters of a page.
Because,

an hour, didn't you?

no, no, no, because the time, because other people, I had three
slides that ended up becoming one slide.

Right.
You had to

The three slides were there, but we clicked
through them to the one part.
And so my three quarters pagebecame about a paragraph.

you had to compensate for

Because I had to compensate for somebody else.
But I had to make sure that all of thethings, all the point and intention
of, me being there, and why I wastalking about, like, how we actually
implement the project, because it isa, it's kind of a a phased, it's like
a second phase to a build, an existingbuilding that's already there and
they're going to be replacing somebuildings and connecting them together

(01:01:17):
and, but it's in a very complex kindof way that they would need to do that.
And, it was, we felt it was veryimportant for them to understand
that process and how it would happenand, what the challenges would be.
But it had all of that, I had likethree slides to kind of explain
that, that I had to explain intoessentially one slide, which was

(01:01:39):
just a very similar project where wedid basically the exact same thing.
And so I just use that image of thatother project to kind of explain
how we did that project and howthat project is, reminiscent of
what we would be doing for them.
Yeah.
And what was the shame about itwas, is that we had very specific

(01:02:02):
drawings or, slides that showedexactly what we would do for them.
That because we had to edit it in realtime, I didn't get a chance to do that.
And I think that was kind ofsomething that was important for them.
Yeah.
And it happens.

like thinking about all this stuff, thinking about
boiling things down to their

Yeah.

which you had to do in real time, right?
To

Yeah.

point that, Really would land at that moment.
You didn't get to do stuffthat you wanted to do.
So again, kind of doing this in advance,boiling things down to their essence,
saying what needs to be said, edit,

All right.

edit, be prepared,

Yeah.

stuff, be able to defend your ideas, but get boiling it down
to its essence is so important to

Yep.

get to the engagement stage early

Yes.

jury, right?

Yes.
Yeah.

engagement, that conversation, that's where you as the
presenter or the team is learning.

Yeah.
Yeah.

out of, out of this interaction, what you need.
This is not a one way thing.
This

Right.

be a conversation because this is where you're going to learn
people who have fresh eyes on the, onthe project, who haven't been there in
every studio at every desk crit to kindof talk through this, they're going to get
different perspectives than you three as

Yes.

as their professors.
Right.

Absolutely.
Yeah.

in their learning evolution in school here.
So.
Like another reason to kind of reinforcethis edit boiling down to the essence,

Yeah.
Yeah.

gritty and, and, but telling the story that needs to be
told so that the engagement can happenand have a really rich back and forth.

Exactly.
Yep.
Totally agree.

All right.
Well, I'm excited tohear how it turns out.
I think like you said, this isyour first time doing it and
it'll be interesting to hear of

Yeah.

to the final outcome.

I'm looking forward to it.
Um, I'm, I'm both,

it.

I'm both very excited for them and I'm also very nervous for them.

Of course.
Yeah.

Um,

Well you want them to do well, like this

I want them to do well.
Yeah.

yeah,

Yeah.

You're like, you're in that parental guidance role here.

Yes.

you're shepherding new architects into the profession.

Right.
Right.

you want them to do well.
Yeah, that's

Exactly.
Yep.

Alright.

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