#358 - AU - ‘Mastering Outdoor Space Design’, with Frank Cavanaugh - Archispeak

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Evan Troxel (00:13):
And Frank, you're joining us from the beautiful city of Chicago,
which Cormac and I got to visit a coupleof years ago at the AIA conference.
How's Chicago right now?

Frank Cavanaugh (00:22):
Chicago's is Unseasonably warm right now.
So we're enjoying every minuteof it because it's gonna change.
I'm sure pretty quickly

You're just, yeah, you're bracing yourselves right for

Yeah,

Cormac Phalen (00:36):
you're like, wait, what time is it?
Exactly.

Frank and I were talking about some cool places in Chicago and,
I'm just going to mention them herebecause I didn't get to go to either one
of these two places that, he mentioned.
One was the Rookery.
Cormac, do you know about the Rookery

I do.
In fact, I had a, friend ofmine come in and I basically
took him around the Midwest.
But of course, one of my favoritecities, I apologize to my current
city Detroit, but is Chicago.
And so I had to have hit thehighlights of all of those.
And the rookery honestlywas stop number one.
If you don't count the fact that we parkedright next to the Monadnock building.

which is another beautiful

is another amazing one.
It was number two.

and so he had Crown Hall as, as

Crown Hall, yeah.

see if you're in the city

Yes

Yes.

and he's in Oak Park.
He's been in Oak Park and he,

Ugh.

made some confessions.
I won't repeat those confessions on thepodcast, but of certain things that he

No, come on.

yet.
But you're in a richplace for architecture.
So that's, that's pretty cool to, to

Oh, absolutely, yeah.
Huh?

that right behind our office building is actually
the Unity Temple So can walk

Yeah.
Yeah.

in scaffolding When they renovated it, but it
looked just beautiful now, so Yeah,

10 years right now.

yes

or, or, or them to come because Taliesin is hurting for some love.

hmm.
Leaking and unsettling and cracking.

When I was there, it was the first time I'd ever been there,
, was just over the summer and it wasrainy outside and it was rainy inside.
And I kept pointing over, it waslike is anybody going to grab
a bucket for that over there?
You're like, you know, yeah, yeah.

(02:35):
And I know Frank is, was shortand all, but like his bedroom,
when I could stand up, right.
And, my head was in to the ceiling, like,

yeah

come on, but it was honestly, it was because of settling.
So you're right.

Well, that is not what we're here to talk about today.
So we're here to talk about.

Oh man.
Right,

time from a

right, right.

this amazing resource that we're going to make available
to all of our listeners about kindof this framework of everything that
you should, as an architect, considerwhen you're designing outdoor spaces.
And we're going to go through some majorsections and hit the highlights, but we're
going to provide Frank's more detailedlist in the show notes for this episode.
So we're going to start like architectsdo kind of the 30, 000 foot level and

(03:29):
just talk about context and location.
So about how the surrounding environmentcan impact outdoor space design and, and
maybe some of the key factors that youbegin with when you're doing those kinds
of considerations early on in the project.

Well, usually the first thing that we look at and it's
usually covered by our client becausethey they they wouldn't even commission
us to Do anything unless they didsome background work is understanding
the ordinances local ordinanceswhere they're allowed where they're
not allowed What are the conditions?
I hope.
critical in the planning of it.
and also understanding what thehealth department, is looking for

(04:07):
when you do spaces like that outdoors.
Those are kind of two critical things froma a municipal governmental standpoint.
And then obviously it's justunderstanding what it is and what
is their surrounding traffic.
Is there light conditionsthat have to be taken care of?
You know, during COVID parkletswere really popular restaurants

(04:28):
that just had sidewalk space.
were allowed to use the sidewalkspace for outdoor dining.
But at the same time, they alsodid bring in big jersey barriers to
protect from traffic on the streets.
So, I think those are some,two pretty critical elements.
And then, since we're talking aboutoutdoor spaces, if we're talking about
roof decks, one of the main criticalconditions is understanding you have

(04:53):
an area on the roof to do it, whatare the, what's the context there?
There RTUs up on the, up there that aremaking sounds, exhaust, things like that.

Mm

Certainly those are nothing that you want to be
setting restaurant guests nextto, so you have to kind of care
what those, what those things are.
And then everything else is, typicalarchitectural and planning analysis.
Looking at You know, what'son building setbacks.
If you're going to do some type ofhard roof over an outdoor space.

(05:27):
Can you, are you into setbacks?
Where the undergroundsewers and, and things that.
Typically, as you guys know, you haveto kind of consider all that context
before you start building anything, so.
sometimes these outdoor spacesaren't just patios with umbrellas.
They're becoming a lot more complex.

I don't know the right time to ask this question, but I'm
going to throw it in here real quickbefore we move on from the next section.
And that's like, when owners cometo you guys and you start to go
through kind of some of theseitems, the general response to that?
If they already done it before, theykind of know the drill, or is it
really surprising to owners sometimesto see the depth at which you have

(06:10):
to make all these considerations?
what do you hear from them?

I think it's, it's a little bit of both.
Some of, some of the clients thatwe have are, are just seasoned
restauranteurs that have done everything.
So, they're not surprised and sometimesthey'll, they'll have suggestions
that we weren't even aware of.
But then sometimes when we workwith independents it's their first
restaurant they're just, they'rein the need for more seating.
Then, then it's a kind of aneye opening experience for them

(06:35):
on, on, on what's involved.

You had sort of mentioned that, a lot of your
clients come to you with, they'vealready done a lot of the homework.
They've, gone through zoning.
They've, they've met with, their localauthorities and things like that.
But How many times have you had clientscome to you, especially like, as you
were saying, the independents, that justhave no clue of what they're getting

(06:59):
into and really looking to you as thesubject matter expert to kind of get
you more, basically pick your brainsand say, okay, what, what do I do?
How, how do I begin this?

say that that's probably the case 75 percent of the time.
I would say

Okay.

I mean,

Yeah.

again with the with the really seasoned clients.
I mean, they're reallyon top of these things.
But we've we've had clients that have.
Wanted to build into setbacks with like,verandas and things like that and, and
actually it's surprising that they'vegotten some variances to do something
like that, but we're there to say,Hey, you're going to have to check with

(07:37):
the city and, and, and work with theplanning department to make that happen.
Yes.

not?

Yeah.

somewhere else, so that means I can do it too, right?

Mhm.
Or like another one, can we justmove that column a little bit?
I mean, which I'm sure youguys have heard a lot of.

Oh my gosh.
Yes.

always, we can

Uh, Yeah.

if you want to spend the money,

Yeah.
I had one client who said, well,we've got this big open lobby, why
can't we just, move this column?
It's a shame that that column'sthere, can't we move it?
And then, unfortunately Isarcastically respond to them.
Well, yeah, if you want your 15story building to be one story.

Exactly.
Just get out of the way.

I know, I mean, apparently I'm not being, creative enough.

Too practical.

So you talked about some of the site constraints and things like that.
And, you being in the Midwest, mebeing in the Midwest I'm just kind of
curious, like, what are the, contextualcues that, you find useful when
you're starting a design especiallyif you're looking to, maybe create
these outdoor spaces that are not justa, single use outdoor space or single

(08:46):
season, outdoor space, but somethingthat is more of a, year round place.

Yeah.
Well, I mean certainly in, in the planningside of it, access to the kitchen and
service is, is gonna be absolutely key.
And, and, and amazingly, alot of places in the city that
have parklets or little cafes.
they don't have the flexibilityof having a secondary door to get
into the outdoor dining space.
They have to go through the front door.

Hmm.

bringing food through the host area, through, outside
the front doors, it to the guests,but you know, they make it work.
They've got probably 20 seatsout in front of the restaurant
and they, and they make it work.
But we'll, we'll be,want to be very careful.
And then I think it's, it just reallycomes down to kind of understanding

(09:32):
the vibe that they're looking for.
If they're looking for a, a, a veryopen where people see that there's
outdoor dining, and then we're goingto look for places around the building,
if it's a freestanding building,to actually take advantage of that.
We've had clients that wanta private dining space.
Outdoor space.

(09:52):
So it's concealed.

Yeah.

and so it'll be like a hidden surprise.
We just finished one down in theWest Loop area that is kind of a
secret garden is what they, they

Hmm.

it.
And it turned out really quite nice.
So I think it's really kind ofa vibe and, and an energy thing.
and it's always kind ofa, it's always the cues.
I think the main cues are how dowe relate it, this outdoor space to
the brand of the restaurant itself.
And the project

Okay.
Right.

were a very kind of art deco, high end interior, very
dark, very deco beautiful design.
It wasn't done by us, but theyasked us to do this outdoor.
And they wanted it to relate, but,so the, the challenge there is
how do you relate an outdoor spaceto a very dark, moody, art deco,
kind of supper club kind of thing.

(10:46):
So, I think it's, it's marryingthe brand to the outside that I
think is another key consideration.
Well,

did you do in that kind of a context?

was

really specific to that, that mood and that brand,
but general things that you guysdid that you could talk about?

yeah, I mean, one of the things that we don't do very often is we
do carpet, we do carpets out, at outdoors.
outside and

Hm.

lot of lounge furniture.
They really went to the nth degreeabout making it the most comfortable
outdoor patio space in the city.
And I think they succeeded because it isjust, it's just like a room out there.
So, and it's covered or yeah,actually 95 percent of it is covered
with a structure, but it's also thestructure, the ceiling structure

(11:37):
we did an acrylic roof structure.
So let's diffuse natural light in.
So,

Hm.

so yeah, I mean, it's, it feels luxurious for being outdoor space.
We even use draperies on the outside.

Nice.

so, and that's one of those, those kind of spaces, because
it has a hard roof, we can use theseshade systems and we use heaters to
kind of close it down in the wintertime.
which, I'm sure we can get intoa little bit on the MEP side.
Unfortunately in that space we used gasheaters, which we'd like to shy away
from and certainly prefer to use the

Right.

heaters.
They're aesthetically muchmore beautiful and they're

Right.

not, the hazard that running gas pipes all around is.

we've used things like that in the past and, and I'll, echo
your sentiments because one of the thingsthat, we've always had the challenge with
is, okay, you're using the gas heaters.
it's the smell, it's, just thesound, it's things like that, that
sort of somewhat detracts from the,the ambience that you're trying to
create for these high end spaces.

And if you're going to close it down with some
vinyl shades to temper the climate,

Yeah.

you have to be thinking about air exchanges fresh ventilation
CO2 detection, all of that type ofstuff that's are hazards that you
really have to be concerned about.
And, and the other thing, and I knowwe'll maybe talk on MEP, but the
other thing to be concerned about iscondensation when you, when you have a.
Vinyl, Side to your outdoor space.

(13:08):
There's a good chance that if youdon't have good air circulation,
that it's going to condensatewhen the dew point is just right.
We had that

Right.

opening up this and we had to increase the
ventilation to make it work.

Yeah, cause that, Evan goes back to that, schizophrenic climate
of the Midwest, especially places likeChicago that, you have sun during the
day, you have wind and stuff, and thenyou have, rain, snow, all of that stuff
all at the same time, which you'renow getting to experience more of.
No.

it was at this new outdoor eating area that there's
kind of a, Think of it as foodtrucks, but without the food trucks.
It's, it's like these booths almostof food service around a central
eating area and it's outdoor,it's covered, but it's open air.
And I thought it was really great becauseopened in the summertime and nobody sat

(14:06):
under that covering in the summertime.
Everybody was out on the lawnin chairs and kind of what I
would call open seating maybe.
and now we're gettingto fall weather, right?
And.
There's these really cool kind ofstool height bars everywhere with
tabletop fire, they're not like firerings, they're these fire troughs, so

Mm

heat

Yeah.

heaters and some ceiling fans.
So it's still open air, there'sno walls on this structure, but
it was totally comfortable, andyou still feel like you're outside
because you can see the views in thedistance, you can feel the air moving
through, so plenty of ventilation.
I do wonder when, when theweather gets really cold.
What they're going to do, becausethere's no option for roll down doors.

(14:54):
Maybe they'll do the vinyl doors,like you're talking about, Frank, you

hmm

it's like the sighting comes down and

Yeah.

of holds the heat in, keeps the weather out, but you still
feel kind of like you're outdoors.

Right

curious from like a programming standpoint, like what
are the other considerations youneed to make early on in planning?
Because there's so many differentkinds of things you can do in
these outdoor environments.
I guess we're, we'rekind of talking about.
food service stuff right now, butthere's other kinds of activities
that could go on in these as well.
But you know, like I just mentioned,loose furniture versus fixed furniture.

(15:29):
Like what are the kinds of things thatyou're really talking to your client about
when it comes to programming and planningearly before you even really begin design?

Well, actually that's a that's a good thing to bring up furniture
types because it varies depending on theconcept We've we're doing stuff right now
out in Massachusetts where they they lovebooths so they want booths outside And
so we built a like a long veranda wherethere's booths and banquettes that are
stationary that are there all year All

Hm.

With very little flexible seating undercover, but there's going to
be a future outdoor patio next to it thatthey want to have some flexible seating
because flexible seating is, is key inrestaurant design to be able to change,

Yeah.
Mm

Guests table sizes.
So I think it's, it runs the gamut.
Furniture I think is a, isa, is a big consideration.
We started talkingearlier about the context.
A big thing that people don't thinkabout, that clients don't think
about is, is headlights in cars.
when

hmm.

to some type of traffic or a parking lot, if it's a suburban
pad site location, you don't want tohave your guests be Periodically blinded
by headlights that are turning thecorner or coming down a row of parking.

funny.
I'm like smiling so bad at this hugegreen because I'm like, the guy who
drives by and like turns my headlights

Tur Heh.

so that I don't blind the people sitting there because whoever
designed the thing didn't think about that

Yeah.

get it

Yeah.

I,

You're

like, I'm trying to do them a favor.
So they have a nice experience,but nobody else does that.

Nobody.
You're one in a million, Evan, for sure.
For sure.
Because it's

Yeah.

it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's, it could be an issue.
So we'll, we'll thinkstrategically about that.
Should we do some screen walls?
Should there be a lattice workof, of plant material to help,
to help block some of that?
That's, one of the big

Yeah.

that we're concerned about.

So, so let me ask this and, yes, I'm falling down this rabbit
hole right now, but, I'm, I'm thinkingabout you being in Chicago and, doing
things downtown where, you want thiskind of sidewalks, cafe type environment.
And there are a lot of differentconsiderations that you have to take
into play when, it's essentiallyright next to the big mass, traffic of

(17:47):
people who are flowing back and forth.
And they're either, in outdoor diningor there's, passersby that are tourists
or, going to work and things like that.
So what, do you take into considerationwhen you're, creating spaces like that?

if it's in an urban environment on a city street where you
might have, like, maybe a 12 foot widesidewalk, or, or maybe a little bit
wider, 15 to 18 foot deep sidewalk, mean,

Mm hmm.

public way open, so the city is going to, some, the city
is going to have some kind of criteriathat you have to maintain, like, 12 or
five feet, six feet of sidewalk spaceif you're going in their sidewalk.

Mm

then, if it's an outdoor cafe, it's it.
Try to get some type of planting onyour cafe railing 'cause you're gonna
need a cafe railing if you're serving

hmm.
Right.

And it provides a little bit of a buffer.
From, from pedestrian traffic.
But, some, and the city, I mean,that's what everybody's used to, right?
Everybody wants to,

Right.
Right.

to, see and, see and be seen in those kind of environments.
It's, it's a

Exactly, yeah.

where, if we're doing a ground up building, restaurant building,
or Any, any type of hospitality building,we'll, we'll ask, we'll, we'll try to fit
in a planting strip of three, four, fivefeet wide so that we can actually get
some planting and provide that buffer ifthere's pedestrian traffic that we'd like

Right.

distance ourselves from a little bit.
But still, it's, it's kind of whatit's all about in, in, in these city
locations is, is being, being seen and,and, and get the vibe of the street life.

You know, it's interesting, and this is a complete
aside, so bear with me here.
But, the last time I was inChicago I was walking around in,
not too far from your office.
And there's, great, row of shops andrestaurants and things like that.
And we went to this one Greek restaurant.
And the way that the.
sidewalk seating.

(19:44):
And I know that we're, fallingdown the rabbit hole of sidewalk
seating and things like that.
But, this, this seating was actually,it was, storefront, sidewalk, and
seating was closer to the road.
And so you kind of passedbetween the sidewalks and stuff.
And it was just really kind ofinteresting because really you were

(20:04):
sort of interacting, whereas like,downtown, you're walking past it, it's
closer to the buildings and stuff.
And this one, you're sort of, you'repassing through the whole environment,
the eating experience and everything else.
And it's, you're kind of.
Part of the whole thing.
So it was, it was just really interesting.

Cormac, because this is, I wanted to ask about.
There's so many differentkinds, I would imagine, right?
Based on where front of house, where backof house, where indoor, where outdoor.
there a bar?
you go through?
Somewhere to get somewhere else?
Like, like you're saying, doesthe public get to walk right
through the middle of it?
Is it, is it,

Right.

you seat yourself?
Is it they seat you?
Like, there's so many considerations.
And

Yeah.

and then I'm sure the restaurants kind of want a little
bit of flexibility too, right?
And so, is, is that all, those, theseare all different considerations
that you get out on the table,as it were, up front, to,

Exactly.

through these during the design.

Yeah, exactly.
I mean, we find most times the restaurant,our clients want to have people come into
the lobby and greet a host and then beable to either go into the restaurant or
the bar or go out to the outdoor diningarea, preferably within the same space.
Very rarely do we actually see themhaving a separate outdoor entrance, but

(21:23):
sometimes they do if it's large enough.
Yeah.
If it's a large enough outdoor spaceand they have the the labor as far
as their staff is concerned, they'llput a second host outside to bring,
bring in traffic directly from outsideand not, not, not kind of up the the
circulation inside the restaurant.
So it all depends.

One more thing here because you mentioned that you're
doing a lot of kind of adaptive reuse.
You've got a lot of old buildingshells that maybe you're putting
a new program into or maybeyou're renovating or whatever.
And I can imagine with the old buildingstock that you're working in in
Massachusetts, for example, ADA is ahuge upgrade for a lot of these places.

(22:03):
So the design phase, the early, planningphases, even before we get to design,
like that's just a given, right?
You're, we're, we're talking aboutADA accessibility for everything.
That's throughout theentire building, right?
It's not

Yes.

part, but it's, it's the restrooms, it's the kitchen, it's the
bar, it's, it's all of these things.

Yes, definitely.
ADA is a prime consideration, especiallywith old buildings, and especially in
restaurants that, one of the restaurantswe're working on in New Bedford
right now, has restrooms, and they'resized, they have the right amount of
fixtures for the current occupancy.
when you add then an outdoor space

Hmm.

You have to come up with some additional restrooms.
So, in this particular case, we'reactually doing ADA accessible
restrooms outside that in the wintercan be winterized, shut down when
the, when the patio's not open.
But yeah, that's a prime concernbecause, And, and as far as access,
change in grades, things like thatall have to be taken into account

(23:09):
because you certainly don't want tohave a special needs person have to go
around the back of the restaurant or gothrough the service entry to access a

Right, right.

them the same

Yeah.

as everybody else, so.

I just had this conversation with somebody that.
Was saying that once you create thisoutdoor patio or this outdoor space
that is supporting the, restaurant cafeor something like that, that you don't
really need to consider that space aspart of the usable space for occupancy.
And I was contending, but yes, you do.
And I'm now going to send thisepisode over to him and say, Hey,

(23:47):
let's have this conversation again.

interesting,

Mm

ago

hmm.

some municipalities didn't catch on
that that should be an issue.

Right.

wasn't a problem.
But I cannot think in the last 10 yearsany jurisdiction that we've been in
where they say, Oh, it doesn't matter how

Right.

seats you add.
you have to provide the right ratio.

So let me ask you a little bit more since we've sort of,
talking about, the infrastructure,of adding extra bathrooms and stuff.
What are some of the other considerationsinfrastructure wise that you need
to consider when you're, doing thatkind of support of, outdoor design?
Right.
Right.

(24:30):
Right.
Yeah.

bringing out a food, a product to your guests
that is is warm, still hot, rightout of the kitchen kind of thing.
But that servers don't have an unduekind of obstacle course to get to the,
the guests that's sitting outside.
So you can.
it so that you have almost direct.
And if we're doing a ground up building,we'll, we'll want to have direct

(24:56):
access to the patio from the kitchen.
but then, then also having to make surethey have the proper amount of service
stations outside to service busing oftables to get dishes if they're, if
they're, if they're doing plates andsilverware to get dishes out and back
into the dishwasher in the kitchen.
that's, that's going to be,consideration from a context standpoint.

(25:21):
and I think the other, the otherother thing that comes to mind is
prevailing winds and sun direction.
If you have a west facing, Place,and this is like with any building,
obviously you'd want to havesome shade, devices if possible.
If you're doing a hard cover or averanda type of structure to make sure
that that's not going to be an issuebecause that's like prime restaurant

(25:42):
time is, is, as the sun's setting.
And people aren't going towant to sit there if they're,
if they're blinded by the sun.
So, and then prevailing winds, I think,is, is the other thing, depending on where
you're at what is the wind conditionsgoing to be like on any given day.
To where that might be a problem.
And then definitely, we, we almost,we will never like do a pendant
light hanging on a chain and theoutdoors because it's just going

(26:06):
to swing back and forth constantly.
So it's gotta be like a rigid, rigidstem light fixture that we're very
confident and it's not going to movewhen, when, when they get like a 20 mile
an hour gust or something like that.

seems to me like these outdoor spaces too, like you don't want
it to feel like an afterthought, right?
Like a lot of times that they, they mightfeel like they're kind of tacked on.
And I think there's a lesser priorityon some of these spaces, depending on
the owner, because they don't use it allyear round, for example, or whatever.
But I'm curious from like abudgeting standpoint, but also
from an infrastructure MEP.

(26:41):
structural standpoint, it seems tome like Like these spaces don't cost
that much less than interior spaces.
You still have to do a lot of design workto get these to be really special places.
Outside, you've got to have heat,you've got to have wind protection,
you've got to think about the acoustics,you've got, you've still got to

(27:03):
design and pay for all of this stuff.
But, but they also getto use it a lot more.
by

Right.

I'm curious like what, what your experience is
with, with all that kind of stuff.

Yeah.
I mean, that, that, that spoton all those things are, are,
are going to be considerations.
And actually from a sound standpoint,we actually sometimes have more
concerns about the sound that the,the outdoor space is generating

Yeah.

versus receiving because of neighbors.
If you're in an urban environmentyou don't want angry neighbors.
And so that's gotta be a keyconsideration from a sound standpoint.
As well.
So, I mean, temperature, climate control,like, like you said, Evan, it, it all
depends on how often you, and how, muchduring the year you want to use it.
If you have a nice winter in Chicago,it's possible, we can have clients

(27:49):
that can use it almost year round.
It's, it's rare though.
And what we'll do to seasonalize itis, and we're doing a lot more of
this now, is using, like I mentioned,these shade systems on tracks.
And then we can do like double shadesystems, where you can not only
have a vinyl that'll come down todo the, Temperature break and the
wind break, but then you can havean additional shade behind it to

(28:11):
help with the sun and light control.
So that's, that's Ithink an another thing.
But like you said, now, nowyou're building a hard roof.
You've got some motorized shadesyou've got an electric heating system.
Yeah, it, it, it adds up.
It, it, it, it doesn't, it's not cheapif you do it, like, if you want something
year round or almost three seasons.

So let me ask you, you said where you're starting to
talk about kind of like some of thesephysical elements within the outdoor
space that are more, there, sometimespeople just think, Oh, outdoor space,
we have a nice little flat, flat patio.
We're going to get ourselves, anumbrella and some chairs and stuff,
and we're going to call it done.
But you're talking about.
Like, real, a room you're creatinga space, you're creating this place.

(28:54):
And so, sometimes like, what are theconsiderations like, for, budgetary
concerns, and I think Evan kind ofalluded to like, this kind of, the
structural concerns and things like that.
I mean, do clients, when they'rethinking about those spaces, how
do they factor some of that in?
Because they may be thinking, preconceivednotion of one thing and, when you show

(29:14):
them, Oh, and that's this and they'relike, Oh, well, what's the budget?
Like, you know, right.

a, either a, a company that does budgets or work with a GC
kind of on a, on a maximum upset budget.
kind of, negotiated typecontract to help with that.
But yeah, I mean, the big thingstructurally that's a concern is if you
do roof decks, obviously you're, you'reputting in a live load on a roof with a
deck, the weight of a deck all that typeof stuff that has to be understood first.

(29:52):
So one of the first things we'lldo is we'll bring in the structural
engineer and have him help us withthe feasibility of such a project.
If it's a roof deck, if it's a Ifit's an on grade structure, like
a veranda structure, then it, it'sreally a little bit more straight
forward, but with utilities runningaround outside, you have to be
careful of where your foundations are.
You might have a, you might have an8 by 8 post that's holding up part

(30:14):
of your veranda, but the footing isgoing to be like probably 4 feet by
4 feet, and how close is it to themain municipal gas line, and the sewer
line, and all that kind of stuff.
So, structurally, those arethe, it's more underground
that are concerns in that case.

Yeah.

to ask you about product durability and performance because
you're exposing this stuff to theelements a lot more potentially,
but also I want to combine that withaesthetics because the way you're
talking about shades, talking aboutmotorized shades, we're talking about
electric heaters, we're talking aboutall kinds of things that, that to me now

Right.
Right.
Mm hmm.
Mm

integrated into a soffit.
They're integrated into a veranda.
We've got technologycontrolling multiple things.
And, and I feel like performanceand durability and aesthetics
are kind of all coming together.
coming together in areally interesting way.
Whereas before, they wouldroll a heater out, right.
And they would bolt up a fan andthey would, zip tie some shades up.

(31:20):
Right.
Like that's how it used to bewhen, when it was just like,
let's make an outdoor space.
And now it's like, it'soutdoor architecture.
It's, it's this, it is a

hmm.

spatial thing.
And people are concernedabout how these look.
but also how they perform overan extended period of time.
Like take, take us kind of through someof that side of it because performance,
I can imagine from an owner's point ofview, like this stuff needs to last.
And

Yeah.

time, you, people want to feel like they're in a really
nice environment and things aren'tjust tacked on and bolted on.

Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, definitely.
You mentioned recess, recessing things.
I mean, the heating systems rightnow that there are electric heat.
Systems out there that, that you canrecess in a soffit that it looked very
clean on in there for outdoor spaces.
I think, your selection of fabrics,obviously you want some fabrics that
are, are, are, are made for outdoor use.

(32:14):
If they're going to get sun and they,

Mm hmm.

Hold up, hold up well.
A lot of it, I mean, obviously you'renot going to do case work outside that is
going to be exposed to rain and warpingand, and, and things like that, that you
wouldn't have an issue with on the inside.
But there's a number of differentthings that you can do with sealers
using lumber, two by, two by materials.

(32:39):
that are solid, that you could get anice seal on, that can be used outside.
And they'll eventually get some wear.
But they'll last a lot longer thanthinking that you can just pull in like an
indoor chair, like furniture for example.
I mean, definitely.
You're going to be needingsome outdoor furniture.
But no matter how many times thatyou think about all the things,

(33:02):
the durability of furniture andfixtures, there's always a surprise.
And we actually had one a few

Mm

ago in Denver.
It was amazing.
We had this, we had these tables thatwe had out in their outdoor cafe.
and they were a compositewood material, very durable.
It was an outdoor table.
We've used it before,never had any problems.
Clients loved it.
Well, what was happening with this client,and I don't know if it had to do with the

(33:31):
altitude in Denver or what, but they were

hmm.
Hm.

when they put their wine glass on the surface, they were noticing
that after a while, they'd move theglass, and there was like a little melted
circle on the composite wood of the glass.
And, and

Interesting.

what we thought, what we kind of figured out was
happening was the sun was doinglike the magnifying glass phenomena,

Really.

this hot little beam of light down the stem on
the, on the actual stand of theglass and, and to melt the wood.

Whoa.

That's

so they had to go

crazy.

and they, so the problem was solved, but it was like,
who would have ever thought of that?

saw

Ex all, yeah, all the factors that you, you go through to, try
to make these outdoor durable spaces andyou fall victim to a, a piece of stemware.

exactly,

That's awesome.

And the

That's crazy.

Was the problem.
And from what I understand, once theymade the glassware change problem solved.
So.

what do your clients do when they don't have a four season set up with
all of the stuff that they have out there?
Like, do they have to provide offsitestorage or, mean, I can't imagine it looks
good to just leave it out and say, youcan't sit there kind of a thing, right?
So it's

right,

to, you have to think through kind of operationally, but then like
aesthetically as well when you're, whenyou're planning this stuff in advance.

actually a really good point.
I mean, most cases, a fairly largeproject it, it doesn't become in the way.
They'll keep it out year round.
They will have some off site storage.
Sometimes when we do ground upbuildings with outdoor spaces, we'll
provide them space for storage.
But obviously space is expensive tobuild, so they might find it more

right,

to bring it off site.
The other thing that's related to that,Evan, is, is the positioning of it.
When we do freestanding hospitalityspaces, we try not to have you
go through a front or outdoorspace to get into the restaurant.

Mm hmm.

Because, the bad weather, you're going
through kind of an empty space.
And if they take their furnitureoffsite if it's, if it's onsite, then
you're going through a space with20 tables that are empty and snow
on them to get into the restaurant.
So you want to position it if you can,in a way that that's not a problem.

(36:06):
But yeah, offsite storage iscertainly something we see a lot.
Yeah,

didn't see that coming kind of an expense, something on a
line item on the expense sheet, right?
It's like,

right.

this stuff because we don't want to set the expectation
that you can sit there or thatyou, like you said, you don't want
people walking through a space of,

that's empty.

tables covered in snow.

So is that a conversation that you have with
them during the planning process?
Because if you say, Hey, we're, we're onlyable to, create a three season space for
you, but you have to consider that fourthseason and what you do with those spaces,

those furnishings,

you know?

I was just gonna just expand on that a little bit.
You know, you talked aboutdifferent types of operations.
I think other component that we seebecoming more popular with outdoor
space is putting bars out there.
And even seen instances where.
They want to do cooking outside.
And that's where For one, from an MEPstandpoint, obviously plumbing, drains,

(37:09):
things like that for bars, you needthat, that, that's going to be some,
there's going to be some costs thereto do that, because you need water,
you need floor drains, and so forth.
but I think the other aspect isthe health department issues.
You know, with restaurants, youobviously, if you're preparing food, or
you have food open, In a service kind ofenvironment you need to have cleanable

(37:31):
surfaces around, especially the ceiling.
we actually did a project at the Starfor, down in Dallas, in the Dallas
Cowboys kind of world down there.
They actually made us do a cleanableover this outdoor grill station.
we ended up doing it stainless.
It was, it ended up being beautiful.

(37:53):
It, I, from what I understand, theydon't use it too much anymore out there
because of the operation headache for it.
But bars and outdoor cooking are, are,are something to really be careful of.
And then also, if you're going to do abar, And you're going to spend the money
on all of the MEP work or the plumbingwork that's necessary to build that bar.
It better have more than 5 seats orelse it's not going to be worth it.

(38:16):
It should probably have at least10, preferably 15 or 20 seats to
actually make it worth the investment.

honestly, I was going to ask that question.
It's like, now you're, you're Investingso much in the infrastructure of
this, this outdoor kitchen or, theoutdoor bars you're talking about,
and I can, if you're also limited tothe amount of time that you can use
it throughout the year, I mean, that'sgot to be that similar conversation

(38:45):
that you have to have with them islike, what do you do with the space?
How do you close it down?
How does it become something thatyou're, it's not like this eyesore
during the off periods of times whenyou're not using, when you're trying
to create this, again, this kind oflike this atmosphere, this ambiance of
like, not only this continuation of yourinterior space to your exterior space,

(39:06):
but you know, just the, practicalityof having all of that stuff in there.
That's kind of interesting.

yeah, for sure.
I mean, it's something to consider.
With the outdoor bar spaces, Imean, that's, that's kind of key.
And a lot of people wouldn't even think,okay, well, you have to be concerned from
a health department standpoint for bars.
I mean, but you forget, well,there's garnishes, right?
You have cherries, you have limes,you have, even if you're not serving
food out in the bar, you have cocktailgarnishes that have to be in covered

(39:32):
containers that type of thing.
So those are all little, little detailsthat have to be thought out and made and
definitely considered by the operatorbefore they, they run with that.
And the health department, I mean, ifwe're, if we're doing our job, we, we
would already have had conversationswith the health department before

Right.

construction begins.
And certainly before we get too farinto our design work, because we want
to understand what that particularhealth department feels is important.
They're going to have their own.
Codes to follow but sometimes they're,they'll, they'll go off code and, and
they have like particular concernsthat they had with a restaurant down
the street a year ago, that type ofthing that we have to look out for.

(40:11):
So, if we do our homework properly, wecan usually address all those things.

It's interesting because so that's the, doing
your, that proper homework.
Is, is all part of the things that aren'tseen there, the, the background, when
you're trying to create this overallatmosphere outside and, what it is that
you're trying to create and, so I don'tknow if people appreciate like the work

(40:39):
that it takes to think of all of thosesmall things, those small details, those
small design elements that really kindof contribute to the atmosphere that
Otherwise, you're just there, having anice, time out, drinking some wine and
enjoying the outdoor space, but thenthe elements that create those spaces.

You don't want to know what's actually behind

You don't want to know how the sausage

Exactly.

to eat it.
Yeah.

Right.

no, that's, that's, that's, that's spot on.
I mean, and if you do your job well,people shouldn't notice that stuff.
I mean, it should, it

Right.

seamless.
They should be focused on having a goodtime, enjoying some great drinks and
great beverages and being served wellby an attendant server and a great chef.
And that should be what they,what stands out to them.
That should be the experience.
Yes.

all architects.
It's like that maskthat, that exists, that

Yeah.

of magic.
And this is just a magicexperience that I'm having.
And all of the work that, thatCormac and you have described,
it's going on in the background.
And, and that value not comingthrough as like, this is what
the architect, like that.
Part of the issue with theirvalue being misunderstood, right?
It's

Mhm.

it

Yeah.

Right.
But it's,

Right.

great, we're, we're idealizing the situation.
And it's like, there is so muchthat goes on behind the scenes to
make this thing work that it's yeah,

Yeah.

get better at that.
Somehow.

Yeah.
Yeah.
People, I think, don't understandthat to some extent, but, you know,
that's, that's the life we live, right?
So, you just gotta deal with it, and,

Yeah.

you know, you guys know, the reward is actually
watching people use the space,

I think you said it earlier.
It's, it's, it's, it's not the padon the back that you're looking for.
It's how are people using your space?
Is, is your space successful?
I mean, it's, it's those things.
It's those elements.
It's just like, yeah,yeah, I did a good job.
So you can do your own littlepad on the back because

Exactly.

You've talked about kind of this experience and ambiance and brand
and maybe we can wrap this up just kindof talking about that, like the feeling
people have and like what are the elementsthat go into the feeling that people have
in the space and how it's tied back tothe brand and how it's, it's tied into all

(43:04):
of these, they're at some level, they'rekind of psychological experiential, but
this is really kind of what ultimatelyyou want to play out the experience that
you want people to have in these spaces.
Can you talk about the elementsthat you guys are really
thinking about to go into that?

Yeah, well I think one of the main, one of the very
important things we haven't coveredfrom a MEP standpoint is lighting.
You know, we talked a little bit aboutcontext, where you want to make sure
that if there's a street light screaming,110 foot candles of, of light, you want
to figure out how to deal with that.
So lighting is, is,

Right.
Right.

I mean, some, some concepts are high energy of vibe
with a little bit louder music.
That's one space.
Then there's other concepts thatare, are just a little bit sexier,
a little bit more intimate.
Then you want to do softer music, youwant to do dimmable lighting to, to
change with the, with the time of day.
Those are the types of thingsthat I think you want to look at.

(44:05):
And then it's reallysurfaces and furniture.
I mean, what kind of surfaces,what, what textures and surfaces
are you going to be looking atthat marry well with the interior
vibe, the brand that they're doing?
Are they doing rough sawnrustic wood on the insides?
Is that the kind of place?
Well, then it's okay to do that outside,but if they're looking at if they have
like sleek finishes and, And thingson the inside, you have to approach

(44:29):
it differently for the outside space.
Metals, what metals are you using?
Is brass like a, a key brandelement for the inside?
Well, how can we use brass onthe outside in a creative way?
Obviously, in a, in a restrictive way,if the, if there's a budget concern, but
but, finishes, I think that's important.
and, and fabrics, there's so manydifferent things, as you guys

(44:52):
know, there's so many different.
products out there that, that justby their characteristics, whether
it's their pattern or their colorthey, you can find a tie in to
something that's happening inside.
So I think lighting and color and texture,I think are, are, are important things.
As well as paving we're notpouring concrete slabs for

(45:12):
patios too much anymore.
We're using permeable pavers,or we're doing pavers that are

Mm

properly to landscape areas.
So you don't have waterissues, that type of thing.
we're being much more conscious,especially in mixed use projects,
of, of thinking about how wateris processed through the site.
and understanding, okay, if youhave a roof you're going to have
to drain that roof somewhere.
Is it going to go

hmm,

municipal sewer system?
Or is it going to have to besplashed out on grades somewhere?
is that happening?
But you can do it nicely with,with a nice paver versus pouring
a, a big slab of concrete andmaybe throwing some integral color.
Now, we've done that before, but.
It's not, it, it, it'sdefinitely moving away.
I think with, with a lot ofthe environmental concerns that

(45:57):
we're seeing that's changing.
And we're, we're starting to besmarter about the type of paving
and, and how things are being drainedand things like that on the site.

mm hmm,

that can add to the ambience, for sure.

I think about like water elements and fire elements and texture
and light like you talked about and likethe color temperature of the light and
there's so many layers to successfuldesign and I personally love it when it's
tied into all of the different places thatyou experience in a hospitality setting,

(46:29):
like all the way back to the bathroom.
Right?
It's like, what are thedividers between the urinals?
What are, what's the sink hardwareand how does it work with what's
going on in the restaurant?
And then the outdoor seating area,when there's like that level of
thought that kind of goes intotying all of this together to
really make it on brand, right?

(46:49):
Like, that's where you're kindof going back to this, right?
This layer of stuff that just, it'slike in the Big Lebowski, that rug
really ties the room together, right?
It's like, it's like the, it's just this

mm hmm.

some of it's ambient, some of it's hardware, some of it's seating,
some of it's, environmental, some of it'sacoustics, but all of that is working
together in concert to create a great.
for people.
and maybe it's just becauseI'm an architect, right.
But it's like, I appreciate thatso much when you can see the level
of thoughtfulness that kind ofties all of this stuff together.

Right.

the details.
I mean, it was in a hotel in in Milwaukeeabout a year and a half ago that we'd
go to on a regular basis, and even thecoat hangers in the rooms are these
kind of cast iron that actually pick up

Hmpf!

of their logo.
It's just little details like that, thateven non architects have a chance, when
they see it, it's like, Oh, that's cool.
I mean,

is awesome.

it is, it's about tying the experience in and it's about
making that progression of spaces.
As you come in the front

Right.

you're at an entry point.
What are you seeing the whole place?
Do you get an understanding of the space?
And then when you move.
Back and forth from the outdoorspace to the to the restrooms
or, or to the indoor bar.
I mean, what is the customer'sexperience that they're not having
to go down like an empty hall oryou want, you want it to make it

(48:14):
understandable and make it all part ofthe experience from lighting to furnishes,
textures, movement through the space.
That's all things that youhave to be thinking about.

I live in the

Yeah,

There's a lot of, a lot of trees and stuff here.
And I just want, because you'retalking about urban areas and I
don't want to miss, you talkedabout kind of buffers, right?
Between, heavily trafficked areasand maybe an outdoor eating area.
But.
something that I've experienced,like, it was in Chicago,
like the Apple Store, right?
They've got trees in the Apple

Right,

right?
Right on the river,

Yeah.

River, and it's really incredible.
And I'm just curious from thehospitality side of things with outdoor
spaces, are you really pulling thelandscape into those spaces, too?
Are you finding that more often?
Are you, are owners asking forthat kind of a thing because of the
kind of ambiance that it creates?

yeah, definitely, I mean there's anything that you can
do to kind of bring that landscapecloser to the dining experience, I
think people get into that becausethey feel more nestled into nature.

Mmm.

there's, there's

hmm.
Hmpf.

hilltop or something like that, which, which is wonderful.
But I think a lot of people do wantto get, have nature pulled in into
their experience when they do things.
The interesting thing about,the interesting thing about
that, whether it's trees.
Open verandas, trellises, thingslike that, as you have to think of a
couple things from a planting materialstandpoint, and that's one, bees, and

(49:42):
plants that attract bees, and birds, so ifyou're going to do an open veranda, or a
trellis type of structure for shade, Yougotta feel pretty comfortable you're not
in an area where there's going to be alot of birds migrating and perching up on

Roosty.
Hmpf, yeah.
Hmpf.
Ha ha ha.
Uhhh.

alfredo, so, you have to be really careful we've
learned through the years that, andlandscape architects are really great
with this they'll, they'll specifyplant material that they know is not
going to flower, doesn't necessarilybear fruit because you don't want to
necessarily attract that type of stuff.

hmm,

think just with like environmental sensitivities that
people have, allergies and thingslike that, that you would have to
worry about pollinating plants.
And

right.

Yeah.

rely on a landscape architect to be

It

savvy with plant selection.
Well, Frank, this has been a greatconversation and it gives hopefully
everybody in the audience a lot tothink about because it isn't maybe
as easy as it appears on the surface.
I mean, that's the magic of architecture,right, is that it, on the surface, it

yeah.

magical.
And then behind the scenes, so muchhas gone on to create these spaces.
So thanks so much for sharing this.
And like I said in thebeginning, we'll share.
The entire kind of list of all of thethings that are, it's not really a
checklist, but it's just like topical.
And these are the things that

Key Considerations.

that should

Sure.

throughout that process.
So

Yeah.

doing that.

yeah, I mean, it's been a

Yeah,

to you guys.
definitely enjoyable.

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