#360 - Guiding Without Influencing - Archispeak

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cormac Phalen (00:09):
If you thought I was bagging on Corbu Last time

Evan Troxel (00:15):
You've got

I've gotten deeper into his Into the chapters, I think.

Oh my god, you hadn't even finished the
book

No!

mid book
report.

no, I was giving you a five chapters in book report.

you have more ranting to do.
maybe we need to wait tillyou're done, like, because
maybe there's a happy ending.
you seem very emotional about this
about this book.

It's interesting how we choose our heroes.
I'm not saying he was any of mine,but, it was just one of those, like,

general heroes.

the general we of, architecture

schools proclaim

is

Yeah.

forget the fact that, he aligned himself with the
Nazis and, immediately when hesaw the opportunity to, deal with
the people in power became Avicii,

Character.

little thing.
So,

Now you're talking about character.

No,
not really.
So, the more and more I get into it,the more and more I'm like, wait,
why can't we see past this?

The interesting conversation there really is, I think,
I mean, that's how I framed it, butI think it kind of applies, right?
It's like there's what youcan judge face value without
knowing all that backstory, which
maybe

Right.

poisoned the well

Sure.

art and architecture projects, You have one story, which
is the one that you're interpreting inthe moment by experiencing the thing.
And then there's all this other stuffthat it actually took to make that, or to

Yeah.

And sometimes those two worlds bleed into each other, like
you're experiencing by hearing this

Yeah.

account, right?

You're like,

of the

Oh,

it doesn't happen quite often.

true, true.
I will say it, further galvanizedmy opinion of, the unheralded,
Pierre Jeanneret, his cousin,
who,

yes.

did a lot to advance, Korb's
career, I guess, and then,

in architecture

yeah,

their firms

true.

starchitects and

Yeah.

it's never a singular

Oh,
yeah,

profession.

exactly.
I started to familiarize myself with,some of his kind of independent work.
he did not align himself with.
the Nazis or the Vichy, when theyactually had a very strong falling
out, between the two of them.

you keep using?
I'm not

the Vichy is the, basically the French fascists,
the ones that aligned themselveswith Hitler during World War II.

Okay.

remember I've got a house full of history nerds, you know,
and me particular,

these conversations,

yes.

you're,

And, and so just knowing the background of like basically how
they sold their country down the river,to, it's just kind of interesting that,
like you, you hear this guy basically,it's like, Oh no, my career's over.
And, like Pierre, he went and, hewent to unoccupied France and even
helped out with the French resistance.

(03:37):
Where's the books about this guy?
Like, in some of his independent work?
that he did on his own, bearsstriking resemblance to the
things that they did together.
And so you're like, Oh, huh,maybe I'm putting two and two
together and getting seven.
But, I honestly think that, one of theinteresting things is that, a lot of the

(04:01):
more pioneering work attributed to Corb.
Could have been attributed to his cousin,

So

but wasn't.

taking credit,
the ideas that

it's a spec, it, right now it's a speculation.

more

cause,

many

exactly.

you?

I'm, three quarters of the way through.

Okay.

So.

audio listening is it total?

being able to string 10 or 11 together.
So

Yeah.

that, that's the problem,

Right.
Well, it's not The Fountainhead.

Oh my gosh.

Audiobook,

Yeah.

How will I ever finish?

you're holding the book,
a small paperback andit's like this thick.

yes,

it was, yeah, I read that.
Anthem by, Ayn Rand, Anthemwas actually a good read.
It's quick, easy, shorterin the scheme of things.
Yes.

Yeah.

yesterday was the start of our in person meetings for ACE.
Cause, we know that I lovevolunteering for the ACE program.
And, I was passing around, the sign insheets so that they, it's just like, look,
look to make sure your name's on the list.
And then they like, we're justlooking at it blankly and I'm like,

(05:18):
you know what your name is, right?
You're there.
Yes.
I know what my name is.
I'm like.
I don't know why it like,

A

it just kind of came,

there,

well it's just like, they paused and they were like staring at the
thing and I'm like, there's only fournames on this thing, you gotta have been
able to find your name that quickly.

Okay.

But actually you know that The kid that I said that to is
super excited about architecture.
It's been very interested in it fora very long time and, you can just
tell that they're like really eagerto kind of get into this program.
So,
yeah,

high school kids, right?

yes.

Yeah.

So some of them I'm like, you know,

are they excited about?
I'm curious what a high schooler's excitedabout going into this program and maybe

learning,

That

To, the group really yesterday was the fact that ACE is about,
exposing high school students to all ofthe different facets of the AEC community.
They kind of just shuffle it around.
So it spells out ACE, but youknow, architecture, construction,
and engineering, and that itgives you an opportunity to learn

(06:32):
about all of the difference.
People that you will encounter in thisprofession from the contractors and all
the different things that contractors doto all the different types of engineering
and, and architecture in a variety ofdifferent forms, interiors, general
architecture, landscape, all those things.

(06:52):
And they were excited about the factthat they could learn more about what
they think is kind of like their path.
You know, there's some people who theychose architecture really early on
and just kind of, kept pursuing it.
I was one of those weird people that,no matter what kind of roadblock,
whether it's the army or whatever else,I was going to become an architect

(07:15):
because that's what I wanted to do.
So,

That

here's

That was a

That's true.
It was just a few, few detours.
And, and so this kid seems like that,like, he was, the way he was talking is
like, he's, he's already bit the apple.
He, he really wants to, be an architect.
And so I think, and, and it soundslike, he's been doing a lot to expose
himself to what architecture reallyis, which is kind of interesting

(07:40):
and, you know, not a lot of people.
even people that I know who ultimatelyended up becoming architects, they were
like, well, you know, I started schooland I didn't really know I wanted to go
into architecture school or, architecturesounded cool, but I really don't
know anything about it kind of thing.
And so, you know, there's a lot ofpeople who, don't really know what the

(08:01):
profession's about when they decide,Hey, I'm going to go study for five,
six years to become an architect.
And that's the thing that I kindof like about ACE is that when
these kids get into this program,whether they're, freshmen to senior.
And in fact, I've got, two freshmen.
One didn't show up last night, but youknow, in my small group, so they break it

(08:25):
up into small groups and, my small groupis two freshmen, a sophomore and a senior,
And, it's just like, startingthat kind of exposure of like,
is this what you want to do?
Is, is it just interesting?
Is this just an extracurricularactivity that you're doing?
Because ultimately, if youpass that you get three college

(08:48):
court, three college credits.

Hmm.

Because that's what this particular program, for a Southwest
Michigan, how they basically functionis that they actually get college
credits out of it, which is awesome.

Nice.

they can compete for scholarships, which is also great.

What do they
apply

well, so, specifically, this particular program, they're
getting general courses, from,Lawrence Technological University
LTU, and Go Blue Devils.
I think that's their, uh, mascot.
Um, uh, I know somebody's going to tellme off in, once they listen to the show.

(09:31):
But They and I think it's justgeneral education stuff that they get.
So it's like, some one onone level course type thing.
But I mean, if you think aboutit, if you're going into college,
you've got, and I believe it'stransferable to other schools.
I mean, because it is,through an accredited school.
And so if they go somewhere else,I believe it, comes with them.

(09:52):
Just kind of like, it's almost samething as like, if you take AP and you
get like a four or five on your test anduniversities will accept that and give
you credit for like a one on one course.
And so, and so I think it's like that, butit's awesome because, it gives you, like
I said, I've said this countless timeswhen we always talk about ACE because

(10:12):
it's that time of year at the beginningof the year where, we get to do this.
And since I'm not teaching this semester,I get the opportunity to actually do this
and I think it's my ninth year doing it.
Yeah.
So my ninth year doing it.
And, new crop of kids to either moldinto, people who are at least informed

(10:35):
about what the professions are.
I mean, I'm not, you know, obviouslyshaping them to become architects.
I'm just,
we're honestly here to give them,yeah, it's to, it's exposure.
And then we talk about it and,talk about, we did, I will say
this, you'll, you'll love this.
This was, this was kind of great.
So one of the men, there, there wasBags on each of the desks and that bag

(10:56):
was for the group to, and it was filledwith like the, the big Legos, like
kind of like the toddler size Legos andeach bag had the exact same colors and
the exact same shapes in each of thebags of all of the different groups.
And.
In a, basically a plastic tub, in,on a table kind of away from them was

(11:22):
something that one of the mentors builtjust a random, shapes with everything
else with all the colors in a way tokind of like learn communication skills.
To like basically, how am I to communicatewhat I see without actually doing it is
that, one of the students would go up,they would look at the shape, look at the

(11:45):
color arrangements and everything else,and then come back and try to instruct
the group on how to construct it, whatgoes where and all this other stuff.
It was, it was honestly wildbecause, you walk all the way up,
you know, like, I don't know, like40, 50 feet away, from your table

(12:06):
and you go over to this thing and oneperson's just looking at it, and they
can they're studying the structureand then they have to come back and
tell everybody they can't touch it.
They can't pick anything up.
They're just trying to communicate.
Pick up the one, the single read or,the four blue and things like that.
And this goes next to that.

(12:27):
And this sits on top of that and that.
And the first time we did it acouple of times just to see if we
could get better the first timethey did it, it did not go well.
I mean, you know,

So what, what happened?
Give some examples.

where I was just, like they would go up, they would sit there,
they would study it, they would look atit, and they would like, and you can kind
of see all of the kids, they would likeshake their heads like, oh yeah, I got it.
And then they would come back, and by thetime they got back to the table, would
have completely forgotten what they saw.
And they're like, I think this ishere, I think this is here, and
then they would switch, and then thenext, kid would have to go up there,

(13:04):
and then, the rest of the group.
And the next kid would go up.
And they would look at it.
Oh, no, no, no.
We got this all wrong.
And they would disassemble it and thentalk about reassembly, you know, like,
talk them through the reassembly.
And then it, that kepthappening over and over again.
I'm like, this is how, you,I was just like, think about,
you know, take it in bite size.

(13:25):
I was trying to explain to them as like,here's how we do things in our process.
It's like, we don't try to dothe whole thing all at one time.
we take, little bits.
I kind of pulled out Rosa's, youknow, how do you eat a whale?
Kind of, quote.
And I started talkingabout, that I was at top.
I was like, think, go and lookat it in bite sized pieces.

(13:46):
You know, look at the base.
What is the base made up?
Build the base first, then goto the next layer, then the
next layer and the next layer.
And they,

they,
were thinking by short cuttingthat, by doing it all at once,
they

they were,

right?

were,

they

yes.

Was that
the

Yeah.

who could get it done first?

Well, I mean, ultimately they were trying to get
as close to being, done as possible.
And, and

Yeah.

there were, one group got closer than everybody else.
But it was just kind of interestingbecause it was a good, you know,
honestly, in a way it was a goodteam building exercise because you.
You had to communicate, you had touse all of your like critical thinking
skills, your memory, the fact that,like I, I watched a kid walk over there

(14:32):
and because somebody had moved a table.
while he was up there, he hadto kind of like jog around the
table to get back to our table.
And I could tell in just that momentfrom he was so deep in thought that when
he realized that something was in hisway and he kind of like, Oh, you know,
and

Just

had to go around it, completely lost it, completely lost.
So he, he came back and hewas standing at the table.
He was just like, uh,

That

I, I, I don't, yeah, it was just in the little things.
And, that was interesting.
It was like, what littlethings throws off your process?
What little things, like in, we do thisall the time, you know, we, you know,
think about like, when you get an emailand you're in the middle of like doing a
design work and then somebody says, Hey,I, I, and then you're just like, look,

at your desk,

yes.

over and and just interrupts,
And

And

whatever

little things.
Yeah.

yep, all those things add up, all the distractions, all the
bings and bongs on the phone, and yep.
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Now let's get back to the conversation.

And I don't know if that was fully what they were.
What they were trying toconvey through this exercise.
But I could see, like, I was pullingkind of like my own kind of like
thoughts is like, think about the waythat, you do group work at school, and
all the little distractions and thingslike that really kind of like take you

(17:24):
away from, the task at hand, or youtry to do, everything all at one time.
And, you, you're forgettingsteps or you miss steps, or
do things out of, out of step.
And it was, to me, it was like, uh, youknow what, this could be a good kind
of like learning exercise of like how,

Mm.

teams communicate with each other.
And and so I just honestly, I'd neverdone that kind of exercise before.
And I thought, this isawesome to, to do this.

They were not allowed to draw.
It was
all

They weren't allowed to draw.
They weren't allowed to takepictures on their phones.
They had to do it all by memory.
And, and just figure out what isthe best method of retaining that
information, bringing it back to thegroup, explaining it to the group of
what needs to go where, and lettingthe group actually construct it.
That was, it was an interestingchallenge, and the mentors even did it

(18:21):
too, and we failed miserably as well.
, you know, it was

yeah, it's something that you would, I assume get decent at over time,

Oh, sure, sure.

if you practiced it enough, and I think that,
that,

Yeah.

that's kind of, kind of speaks to the idea of, we've
talked about it before you know,special, specialization versus,
like, a

right?

right?

Yeah,

people who are really good at something tend
to continue to do it, right?

yeah.

do
that thing.
I don't know,
get

Yeah.
Oh yeah.

ways that, that that
could

Mm-hmm

But, that, that is kind of interesting to think about
because yeah, like, like, that's whatbusiness development too, people do.
They, they're rainmakersand they're really good at

Mm-hmm

building.
Designers are, you would hope, reallygood at design and communicate, like
synthesizing ideas from user groups
into a product.
ideas.
And then there's people in these stepsin the process who are just really good
at the different pieces that they do.
And then there's the generalistswho have to do it all.
You have a
small

Yeah.

a single person
practitioner, and you
have to do marketing andpayroll and, and, and
and all

and, and, and, and, and, yes, exactly.
So that's interesting.
Yeah.
But, I don't know if that waswhat they were expecting for their
first day from ACE, but it wasactually a pretty interesting,
um, opening, icebreaker exercise
is, getting people to.

(19:56):
get out of their comfort zone.
You could tell that, there was somequiet kids in our group and quiet kids
in, just in general there and to havethem, to force them into, communicating
with others and all of that other stuff.
It was kind of interestingbecause you could sort of see them
uncomfortable, but able to, just,Oh, I got this, kind of thing.

(20:18):
And it was, It's good because it givesthem the confidence of like, Oh, I've
seen everybody else sort of mess up.
And, obviously I can'tdo any worse than that,
Kind of thing.

to mess
up,

Exactly.
Exactly.
And, and that was the great thingabout it because you could tell like,
the senior, he's probably going toprobably become the leader of the
group because, he's older, he'sexperienced and all of that other stuff.
And some of the quieter, like freshmenand stuff, they'll, you know, but,
they'll be very reserved in this.
And what was really kind ofcool about it was just the fact

(20:53):
that they It just had to speak.
They had to.
They, they, you could not.
Every student had to take a turn goingup, looking at this, structure, coming
back and explaining it to everybody else.
And so, it pulled people outof their shells without them
probably even realizing it.

(21:13):
You know, it was just a game to them, butit was a game that like, if you do that
more and more, because I mean, if youthink about it, the more and more you do
something that is uncomfortable to you,the more and more you're going to learn
how to actually like navigate around that.
And it won't be as uncomfortable to you.

Possibly.

I mean, you hope you, you hope.
I mean,
I wasn't,

I could see that.
Yeah.

yeah.

Do

Yeah.

the, how do you see this exercise kind of tying into your,
I don't know, is it a curriculum?
I don't know what you would call it,but do you see it going any deeper?
Like, like having, to otherthings, because to me, I mean,
the obvious thing to me is like,this is what architects have to

Yeah.
Oh, oh, why was it,

again
throughout

uh, I, I was explaining to them that very thing as we were
talking, as they were going throughit, I was kind of explained to them.
I'm like, well, this is kind of a, ananalogy of how Architects work and,
you know, it's deal, it's just like,we're here the teams are like, just,
you know, waiting for that information.

(22:22):
And they like, you know, explain it.
And you could see that some ofthem were like kind of hesitant.
It's like, okay, what did I,you know, what was I saying?
What was I doing?
What am I supposed to be telling them?
And they're like, you know,trying to like, pull it out.
And of course, those, evenmade the comment about.
Architects being mind readers and thingslike that, and just just likening a
lot of like that whole exercise tokind of like the daily functions of,

(22:45):
or like just kind of like the, thedaily, whatever we go through, in
communication challenges trying tomake sure like, you know, yeah, I mean,

Well, yeah, I mean, the client's going to tell you a million
things that

Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

decisions.
budget decisions.
And you have to hear that stuff andyou have to incorporate it, right?
I got on some level it, maybeit leads to another conversation
that changes that, right?
But, but at some level, like that,you're if you're providing architectural
services, have to synthesize thoughts,desires from a client into reality, right?

(23:34):
And so the only way to do thatis to hear what they're saying
and

Exactly.

it happen.
And

Yeah.

may be a solo act, but it's usually a team act, Right.
So

Right.

these things back, you're coming up with a formulating a plan,
and

Right.

to
execute that plan.

Exactly.

have to do it on the construction site.
You have to put together theconstruction documentation that then
tells somebody how to do something.
And it is an instruction set, literally,
right,

Yes.
Yeah.

So, it's like multi faceted, the thing that you're talking about here,
and how it actually plays out in practice.
It starts, it's in the earlyphases, it's in the later phases,
it's

Yep.

in
many in between phases
too.

Exactly.
Yeah.
You know, I could honestlysee this exercise being used
at, know, the college level.
When you're like introducing groupprojects and you're trying to instruct
them on the importance of, clarity andcommunication and even honestly, as

(24:37):
kind of like a team building kind ofexercise in the professional realm, you
know, just again, kind of emphasizingthe importance of clear instructions.
You may think about like a lot of timeson project teams, sometimes when a
project doesn't go very well, it's alldue to lack of communication, really.

Mm.

And, you know, if you are just, clear in thought
and, clear in your instructionsand stuff, it makes things easier.
And, seeing it from, like, say, thehigh school level to the college level
to the professional level of them doingthis exact same exercise, and either
seeing them kind of do the same, Issuesor, quite possibly that could be like,

(25:20):
Hey, like we, we, as a team, we talkenough and we, are kind of in sync, you
know, this should be something that's,I won't say cake, but, Hey, trust me.
It wasn't cake.
It was interesting.
It was because like the fact that likewhen the mentors did it and they were
equally as bad as the students, itliterally is all about like, not just

(25:40):
memorization, but you know, communication.
it's, it's it's thisamazing communication tool.
I was actually kind of like, Yeah,this is kind of a cool little
it's, feels like a childish littleexercise, but it really wasn't.

Yeah.
Interesting.
Very cool.
That's

Yeah, yeah, so, I'll Oh, we do know that the The project
that we are doing, That is a recreationcenter for, there's a project
that's on the books for a communityaround here that they're, actually
designing and building one already.
And so we linked up with that clientand are just using that, their

(26:23):
program for for their project as aprogram for the students to work on.
And since it's a rec center, I'm goingto try my damnedest as somebody who's
designed a lot of rec centers to not.
Influence them, but just guide them onunderstanding, but not influence their

(26:47):
design and not influence like, how theydo, they go through the process because
it really is the, that's what's fun aboutit is like the learning, the discovery,
the, I've never done this before.
Let us figure out what that, whatall of these things that, we could
potentially be doing for the rest ofour lives, what all of that stuff means.
And when you have a mentor who'sjust basically telling you what

(27:09):
to do, that's not mentoring.
That's just

Yeah.

somebody telling you what to do, right?
So,

Yeah, That's a
supervisor.

exactly.

It,
uh, that's an interesting thing that youjust said because the idea of guidance,
it means you're not tied to the outcome,
right?

Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.

dog in this fight.
You are

Right.

you're okay even if it doesn't go how you want it
to,

Oh, yeah.

like, Oh, I can't, I will not allow this.
I

Like, oh, yeah.

between that and like a design studio and college is
like the work has to speak for thecollege on some levels or the studio

Right.

or there's definitely like, well, I'll just say
ego is a tie tied to, it may

Yeah,

It may be, it may be, you know, other things, right?

yeah,

It could be other things, right?
But in this, you really don'thave those high stakes, right?
You

exactly.
Right, right,

those frameworks to have to work within.
And so I, I mean that when I wasteaching at community college and
the students had to do, we were doingsome digital modeling and they had to
design a tree house and the tree house.
Like, literally can just be anything.
not the one who is the deciderabout how that needs to look,

(28:34):
form, function, anything,
right.

right.

like, they had to be creative.
And the most, way to becreative is to let people play

Yeah, absolutely.

And a rec center is all about, kind of, play,
Like, there's
a
of course, to fitness and recreation,but at the same time, like, it's,
I could

Well,

that being kind of a perfect project for
that

what exactly, cause what's sort of interesting about this
project is, so like last term or lastyear, they did a house and everybody
kind of has a, an understanding or afeeling about like what a house is.
And so

right?

have a construct.
Right.

usually

it.

the thing they grew up in, right?
Like, that
they

Right.
Right.

know.
Yeah.

Exactly.
And, you know, in a very similar vein isit could totally be that for a rec center.
It's just like, I grewup playing soccer there.
I mean, I used to go play, pick upbasketball or, you know, did rec.
Sports there, or, there's a skatepark there or a pool or whatever.

(29:41):
And so they already have a kind of apreconceived notion of what that is.
So it'd be kind of interesting as, kidswho don't really know anything about
the planning and all of that otherstuff, but they're going to learn, what.
project planning is all about in kindof a really small bite size, fashion.
And it'll be like, okay, how do Ithink about this project more than

(30:05):
just what I think of a rec center is.
Let's start to immerse yourself intohow an architect or an engineer thinks
about how you put together this stuff.
And it is going to be Horrible, right?
Like they're going to come upwith something and you're going to
look at it and you're like, Oh no.
But it's not your job to say, here'swhat I think would look better.

(30:30):
Why don't you try this?
Or why don't you know, let me draw thisup and this is, this would be great.
No, let them explore.
You said it best.
It's like, just let them explore.
Let them have all of the freedoms in theworld to just, try to create something.
That's just not.
You know,

Yeah.

yeah, yeah.
So,

Let's take a pause in the program and let everybody know that
they can ask questions of the show

yeah, yes,

this QR code right here.
It goes, it just takes youover to askarchispeak.Com.
You can just type that in your browseror if you're watching this on YouTube and
you don't want to use your fingers to dothe typing, you just point your camera.
Do it right now, Cormac.
Hurry up.
Hurry up.

doing it.
I'm doing it.

You're taking too long.
Here it goes.
It's

Oh, I got it.
I got it.

He got it.

I did get it.

askarchispeak.Com.
Ask Cormac and myself questions thatyou want to get answered on the show.
That just takes you to a web pagewhere you can ask a question.
Cormac, please don't submita question right now.
That's

I'm going to.

attention.
my eyes
are,

Dang it.

here.
All right, enough, ofour commercial break.
So, so my next question about ACEis, okay, you're talking about
the architecture side of it.

Yeah.

Talk about the
other two parts and how

So.

their
way into this project along
the way.

So, they're going to have, you know, it's
going to be a design project.
They're going to learn aboutstructural engineering.
They're going to learn aboutmechanical engineering.
Um,

structural
engineers

from structural engineers and mechanical engineers
because they're mentors is they'renot all of the mentors are architects.
There's a lot that are contractors.
There's a lot that are engineers.
And so they'll get, anexposure to each of this.
But one of the interesting things thatI like about this is that they get
exposure to To how we in the professionkind of collaborate as well, right?

(32:33):
That it's not just this solopractice, hero architect up on
the hill, I just do everything.
And,

to the

yeah,

right
now is

exactly, exactly.
And it really is, kind of givingthem that, that taste of what, You
know, how things are created andall of the different complexities
of the relationships between all ofthe different players within this.
And, and so they'll be responsible for,you know, designing a rudimentary kind

(33:04):
of, plumbing system or mechanical system.
And, you know, they will do costestimating, they will, create a schedule.
You know,
I mean,

trying to

almost

away.

what's fun.

I hear it.
Now
I hear

Actually, what's, what's really interesting about all
of that is it, they kind of get intoit, because, we're not asking them
to like, do some big massive Ganttchart, we're just take a swing.
How long do you thinkthat this really takes?
And they do, it is, it is an educated,you know, that they put together because
we have people who give, some pretty goodpresentations on, all of these different

(33:42):
things that are requirements for the,for their grade at the end of this.
You know, if they get a good grade,and they, That's when they start
to earn every one of these kids.
They, when they sign up forthis project, they do a dual
enrollment with the university sothat they can get those, grades.
And that's, and that honestly worksfor, for their benefit as well too,

(34:02):
because they get the opportunity to,start picking up college credits.
It's awesome.
And, but, but I like that the fact thatit gives them the exposure to all of
the different traits, there's lectures.
So it's two, two days a week.
Mondays, it's basically a lectureabout a discipline or, something like,

(34:24):
urban planning or, sustainabilityor, mechanical engineering, plumbing
engineering, so on and so forth.
And then that.
Wednesday, let's just, let's justput it in the context of like, say a,
architecture school, you know, you'vegot a lecture and you've got a studio.
And so studio, you're sitting down andyou've got the mentors there with you.

(34:47):
They're talking you through kind ofthe things that you learned on Monday
and how that applies to your project.
And, like start from the big picture,you're doing kind of like an Herbie.
planning, urban contexttype thing with your thing.
What do you look at tokind of like get to that?
So, how we do those site analysisall the way down to, okay, now

(35:07):
you've designed a building.
How long is it going to take to build it?
How much is it going to cost to build it?
Those kinds of things.
So it's, it's really interestinghow it's all integrated into it.
And you, what's amazing is that You'llfind students who really want to do that,
the contracting side of it, and theytake that on as that they're part of

(35:28):
the, their contribution to the project.
There's, people who are, more into wantingto do some of the engineering stuff.
And then there's others who are like, Iwant to just, do work on the design of it.
And so, it kind of almost like, Youknow, flushes itself out that, you've
got somebody who's interested in eachof the different facets so that they're

(35:49):
all working on the project togetheras a collaboration again, much like
the way we do it on a daily basis.

It sounds like this is way better than talking to a high school
counselor who typically has the wrong idea

Oh yeah,
yeah, absolutely.

off is what they know, and what they know is probably wrong.

Yeah, yeah.

and they've steered a lot of kids the wrong way.
I

Oh yeah, yeah.

toward engineering, and he went through engineering school and
then decided to go into architectureschool because that was his true passion.
But
he

Right,

the
counselor, right?
And

right.

other way too, right?
Where it's like, there's manypeople who end up in architecture
school right out of high school
who

Yeah.

be in architecture
school,

yeah, yeah.

some of them figure that out, a little bit of time,

Yeah.

some of them don't figure it out.
Or are they just, they just,they don't want to, like,

Accept defeat.

and they
just,

Yeah.

keep going and trudging through it miserably,
right?

Yeah.

this is a great way to kind of try the shoes on
and

Oh yeah.

to buying them you get this taste of it and
there's real professionals.

Yes.

in the quality from your perspective and they don't
listen to this podcast, right?
So you can be Totally truthful here.
Like, what are the other professionalslike that you're working with
in this mentoring program?

you know, it's just

it.
They're, they're, they'renormal engineers and

the,

yeah.

know, they're just normal engineers, normal contractors,
normal, you know, honestly, everybodythere who is giving up their time,
this is all their personal time,um, to come out and do that, they're
passionate about their profession.
They're passionate about,

I

you know, looking for.

this who isn't, right?
That's kind

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, just the fact that you'relike, Hey, how would you like to
volunteer with a bunch of high schoolstudents to basically teach them
what it is that you do for a living?
And, but the way that we'regoing to do it, isn't just, I'm
going to give you a real quick,15 minute lecture on what it is.
And then you go away.
No, you're going to be there every, like.

(38:05):
every week for, from, yeah.

lecture,
right?

Yeah, no, no, it's, it's, yeah, I mean, we talk about, like, how
long does it take for an architect, like,what, how long is architecture school,
what type of, like, what do you doafter to, you know, become an architect?
You know, we talk about, like, therealities of, like, the challenges behind
school and everything else and, and.

(38:28):
But, I mean, at the end of the day, it'slike we pick a fun project, they get to
immerse themselves in it, they get tolearn all the different facets behind it,
all of the mentors that are there, theywant to do this, they're not volunteering,
they're, basically we're giving up,let's see, four hours of actual, like,
face time with them, and then just, thecommute time, so, like, let's just, like,

(38:52):
yesterday I gave them, three hours ofmy time, up until like, 830, at night
to just talk to them about, architectureand that's, and I love that because I
explained to them and you can definitelysee there's a wide variety of different
kids from different walks of lives.
And when you and I were goingthrough this, I never had anybody

(39:18):
ever come and talk to me about.
What an architect is, I and to bequite honest with you, when you
talked about like the high schoolcounselor talking them out of it, I
joined the army right after I finishedmy junior year of high school.
I never talked to them.
I was, yeah, yes.
I wasn't going to let them one wayor the other what I wanted to do.

(39:40):
I knew what I was, wanted to do.
I knew I putzed around a little toomuch in high school to, and so I had
a little bit of growing up to do.
But, other than that, but the thingthat I was telling them is like, what I
would have loved to do, as I can, wouldI have, if I would have known what I
was getting into, would I still do it?
Yeah, probably, because Ireally enjoy doing this.

(40:00):
But, there are some people who willbe like, Oh, you know, man, I was
really thinking about going intoarchitecture and do this ACE program.
They're like, maybe architectureis not really what I want to do.
Maybe I want to do engineering.
you know,

Both

your friend who was swayed into going into engineering instead of
architecture, if he would have had theexposure of doing, this ACE program
and then being able to like, make thatdecision, like, you know, no, no, I
really, I really do feel like, my passionlies in architecture or my passion lies
in, construction, management or whatever.

(40:33):
then that of gives you this understandingbecause you, you, I mean, When I was in
Baltimore and we did, the ACE Baltimoreprogram, none of these kids when they were
freshmen and all of them, they actually,like, I, I got to watch kids go through
this whole program for like, when theywere freshmen all the way to senior, and
then when they graduate and go off tocollege and, and, like, you know, start.

(40:55):
On this path.
And you slowly see, it's just like,they come in and they're like, I,
just need an extracurricular activity.
I'm, you know, doing this, thisthing to them, continuing to
stick with it and saying, youknow, Hey, I actually like this.
And, and I really do think thatthis might be, and I remember when I
was doing that, the, you know, thiskid was just like, as a freshman,

(41:16):
he was just like, I wanted to be.
a writer.
That's what I wanted to go to college for.
I'm like, that's great.
You know, that, it's a goodcreative program, it'd be fun.
And ended up going into architectureschool because they found a colleague.
They were like, thisis actually really fun.
I get to create, I wanted to be,obviously it was a creative kid

(41:37):
because, I wanted to do, writing.
but it was just, didn'treally have the exposure to.
know what they really wanted to do.
And when you get thatexposure, it opens up doors.
It opens up like this wholedifferent, I never had anybody
tell me what architecture was.
And I kind of wish they did.

(41:58):
And he, most of the time, if youthink about it real quick, most
of the time, if you think aboutit they don't tell the truth.
Oh, architecture's great.
Come on in.
You know, there's all this other stuff.
What's

or

what's, what's fun.

opposite.
You hear the, you know, you could
hear

Oh And,

you're talking to.
Yeah.

you know, say, I tell them, I'm like, look, architecture's hard.
But, it, if, if you're, if you're doingit right, it's going to be hard, but it's
going to be fun hard, you know, becauseyou can actually enjoy, what you're doing.
And if it's tough, sure, it's tough.
This is sometimes the challenge in, thetoughness, the challenge is what's really
exciting about the product, the job.

(42:39):
Anyway, if it was easy, as they say,if it was easy, every, anybody could
do it or everybody would do it.

Right.
I

Sorry, I cut you off.
You were about to say something.

don't remember what I was going to
say

Uh, yeah.

anyways, obviously, so.

But yeah, so it's it, I encourage anybody who, might
be listening and might have an ACEprogram in their community to get
involved at least once, one year.
Try it.
Give it a, give it a shot andjust see how fun it is to.

(43:20):
you and I have been doing this for so longbecause we like talking about what we do.
We like sharing ourpassions for what we do.
This is, this is that too.
This is exactly that.
the reason why I do this is thesame reason why I do ACE, it's
because I enjoy doing this.

well, and it was missing when we were there, right?
This

Yeah.

a
thing that we
had.

Oh, no, not at all.

a thing.
And like you said, nobody toldyou about what architecture was.
You kind of
wished

Right.

And if you imagine what back in the time when we were in school,
how would we have even figured that out?
Like you would

Right.

to have known an architect, called one up,

Right, right.

what kind of practice you could get in touch with.
It could have been a tiny practice.
It could have been a It couldhave been a huge practice.
and not only that, but, That'snot architecture school.
That's not what an architecturaleducation is like at all, either, right?
And

Yeah.

the community college level, and there's a wide
range of programs and quality
of

Yeah.

at that level as
well,

yeah.

And so, it's like, man, what a mixed bag.
And so, They're not picking youguys, you guys are picking them
by

Right.

and
doing

Right.

and and so they are getting still a limited view, but
at least they're getting kind of abalanced view of the whole process,

Yeah.

one discipline within the industry, so.

I mean, so I look at it this way.
So I don't know how I got, I mean,I do know how, and I know this story
and I've told the story of how I,
you know, got interested in,

of yourself.
Yeah.

well, just got interested in, in, in architecture, but it was
not these were the parents of thekids that I grew up around, they
were, tradesmen, they were, hourlyemployees, they weren't career people,
you know, they didn't go to college.
And, there's, and that's the thing, that'sthe beauty that I like of this program is,

(45:20):
just having them exposed to other avenues.
Not to say any of that is wrong, ifyou want to go into trade, I mean, I'd
love for more and more people to gointo trades because, you know, you can
great, have a great job and a greatcareer and everything else, those, but,
say that you don't want to do that, inthe, you're just struggling with what

(45:42):
avenue, exposure to other things is,a way to kind of like open up and show
you, show people where that avenue is.
And, you know, That's again,what I like about this is just,
giving kids an exposure of,oh, this is, I can do this too.

(46:02):
Like, yeah, of course you can.
If you enjoy it and this is what,and you have a passion for it.
Sure.
Definitely do it.
Don't, don't tell anybody that you can't.
Yeah.

what it's, what it's like to.
Think about pursuing that.
Like, I think that it's, it's kindof criminal that there's been so
many, so many examples of, youhave to go to college, you have
to pick what you're going to major
in,

Right.
Right.

four years right out of
high

Right.
Right.
Right.
Yeah,

I think that that's, that's, I'm sure that there's still
a ton of pressure there for that.
But I've also seen a lot, likemy kids, for example, are like,
I have no idea what I want to do.
And I encourage them to explore

sure.

pick, because if
they

Right.

like, then it's like, OK, now this is for real.
Like, we have to spend our money wisely.
You have to be diligent.
You have to, you know, we've got todo this in an efficient way, right?
Because the pockets are not loaded, right?
So it's like I mean, there's, there'sjust a lot of pressure on young kids.

(47:07):
a program like this justgives them that exposure to it
to

Sure.

no, that's really not what I want to do.
It's
not interesting, right?
And
that's,

Yeah.

valid,
right?

Oh, absolutely.

is not a waste of time.
That is actually a greatuse of time because
a

Yeah.

would be saying, I'm going to go to college for
this and then figuring that out,
right?

right?
Right.
Exactly.

situation.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm also sort of a pro.

So I appreciate you sharing.
It's, it's pretty coolthat, is a yearly thing and,

Yep.

uh, very cool.
So we'll put a link to it in theshow notes for people who are
hearing about this for
the first time, unaware of ACE mentoring.
We've
talked

Yes.

on previous shows.
I don't know which ones, butthis has been something that
I've participated in as well.
I know Cormac is way more regular in itthan I've ever been, but it's it's been
a rewarding experience for both of us

Very.
Very.

have been participating in it.

So we will put a link to, as Evan said, we'll put
a link to it in the show notes

It's a

and

It's

it is.

just a, and, and there's our regions, but
it's,

Yes.

it's, all over the place.
It's not just in Detroit, for example.

Nope.
Yep.
Yep.
In fact, actually that was, wewere talking about it today.
And we've got, our office, theyparticipate in four different regions ACE
Baltimore, ACE DC, ACE Detroit, and ACE,you know, the Austin area, Austin, Texas.

(48:43):
I don't know if they do it in Baltimore.
our Arizona office or not,but I'll have to find out.
But I but if you just think about it,it's, it's, it's all over place it's
great program.

All right, man.
Talk to you later.

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