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February 12, 2025 68 mins

In this episode, we dive deep into the often overlooked role of architectural specifiers. Our special guest, Jeff Potter, shares his unconventional path to becoming a spec writer and discusses the challenges and triumphs along the way. We use this opportunity to address a listener's question about the perception and value of the specifier role within firms.

From personal experiences to industry trends and evolving technologies, this discussion highlights the importance of specifications in architectural projects and explores the financial compensation and career progression in this niche. Join us as we unravel the complexities of the specifier's world and offer insights into navigating the profession.

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Evan Troxel (00:09):
it's still morning over here on the West Coast, Cormac.
What's your excuse for drinking coffee?

Cormac Phalen (00:14):
It's only 108.

Evan Troxel (00:15):
You gave up coffee.
doing right now?

Cormac Phalen (00:17):
So like I just started drinking coffee, like at noon.

Evan Troxel (00:20):
oh, okay, All right.
so
you
didn't give up caffeine completely.

Cormac Phalen (00:23):
Yes, it was just temporary.

Evan Troxel (00:25):
Good for you.

Cormac Phalen (00:25):
It was a reset.
you know how those IT folks are, it'sjust like, did you, reboot your machine?

Evan Troxel (00:30):
right?

Cormac Phalen (00:31):
So that's what I needed to do.

Evan Troxel (00:33):
All right.
Well, we have a specialguest this episode, and it's
an old colleague of mine.
I'm not going to tell the story.
He's going we actually have a listenerquestion that we're going to address.
And it's A very involvedlistener question.
So much so that I had tobring in a heavy hitter.
for this episode,
But I think the valuewill be very high still.

(00:55):
So, you're going to get Archispeak'sversion of a learning unit today.
So we're going to welcomespecial guest, Jeffrey Potter.
And Jeff, I would loveit maybe if you begin.
Your story today ofjust tell us your story.
Tell us your unconventional path.
To the architectural industry professionhowever you want to phrase it.

Jeff Potter (01:18):
That's a good start.
So it began in, 2015, Ithink is when I started
in this industry.
You know, our past employer,Halloween was really big and I started
like two days before Halloween.
And so
super

Evan Troxel (01:37):
had a weird introduction weird introduction to the

Jeff Potter (01:40):
Yeah.
It was, won't say it, but therewere some questionable costume
choices that year and they were
asking if I wanted to be part of it.
It was one of those where I don't want tobe that guy on HR's list, you know, like
two,

Evan Troxel (01:55):
value.
There is some shock value.
right.

Jeff Potter (01:58):
So my background for school was criminal justice.
What I graduated in minor psychology,graduated, the whole law school thing,
didn't work out, and then to if lawenforcement was a potential avenue.
And so I went through the whole motions,during that time, I was actually driving

(02:20):
a forklift for, a big distributor.

Evan Troxel (02:23):
This is an incredible resume

Jeff Potter (02:24):
I was is this really what I want to do the rest of my life?
I really want to drive a forklift,pack boxes, and it's like, no, this
isn't really what I want to do.
And so, as I was going through thiswith law enforcement, that really wasn't
panning out and really seeing like,nah, this isn't the career path for me.

(02:48):
I went to my now wife, she was mygirlfriend at the time, and said,
can you just apply to any job that,is on like Glassdoor or whatever?

Evan Troxel (03:00):
Any job,
I'll do anything.
And the vortex that isarchitecture sucked you up
somehow, right?
Black hole that we, that Yeah.
the force is incredible.
Right.

Jeff Potter (03:13):
uh, The spec job was one of like the 10 or 20 that she applied to.
And I remember coming home oneday and asking her like, would
you apply to today for me?
And she was like, I did this one.
I was like, why did you apply to that one?
Like I had no background in architecture,no background in construction.
I think like a week later Igot a call like, Hey, you,

(03:34):
you want to interview for it?
And I was

Evan Troxel (03:36):
They're like, we'll take anyone.
They'll, they'll literally take anyone.

Jeff Potter (03:39):
yeah, exactly.
And this was
like a spec assistant job.
I think it was like speccoordinator was the title.
So I went in and interviewed for it andit was with, I mean, you remember Joe
and Sherry, sat down at the table andthe first thing that Sherry did was slam
this, like, 1500 page project manual.
And it was like, this is what we do.

(03:59):
And in my head, I'm like, youwrite that thing from scratch?
Like, there's no way I'll everbe able to write the entire
project manual by scratch.
I didn't realize, you know, whatspecifications are actually like
templates, that whole thing, butI really tried to sell myself.
And when I heard that the firm waslike this 4 10 schedule every other

(04:20):
Friday day off and the Fridays youworked, You got donuts or bagels.
Like that was a selling point for me.
It was like, I want this.
Like, I don't care about if Ilike it or not, I want donuts
or bagels every other Friday.
And so, long story short,I got the position.
I started almost immediatelyand fell in love with it.
Joe and Sherry really tookme underneath their wings.

(04:42):
Day one was all right.
Do you know what a speck is?
No.
All right.
Specification is three parts.
Here's how it breaks out.
Here's some reading materialson project delivery methods.
This is what you're going to bedoing the first month, is just kind
of learning at a high level whatspecification writing is, how the delivery
method kind of impacts what we do.

(05:03):
That's really how I got started.

Evan Troxel (05:06):
Man.
Crazy.
Right?
That's just
like the unconventional

Cormac Phalen (05:10):
path to,
you know, spec writing.

Evan Troxel (05:14):
And he came in with zero knowledge of what a spec
even was, to use the term specand specification and specify.
Like these are allderivatives of each other.
So a spec is a derivativeof specification, which is
part of the delivery processof a project, right, Jeff?
So, we got a question.
from a listener.
So I'm going to once again, justtout that we started a new website

(05:38):
out there called askarchimpedia.
com.
You can head over to that website and youcan, there's no, nothing to register for.
You don't have to, you know,create a login or anything.
Just type in your question andget it answered on the show.
And we got a lengthyquestion, which I thought
demanded a link, an expert,a subject matter expert, but

(05:59):
also a lengthy discussion.
This is not something that we couldjust kind of get through, five minutes.
This is, this is a longer discussion.
This is an anonymous question, and Ithink there's good reason for that.
there's, somebody's not looking tobecome known for asking this question,
but, because this plays off of othertopics we've had in the past on the
podcast, regarding jumping around, andwe, we've, I think I've cited the, It's

(06:25):
a pretty well known figure that peoplewho jump around firm to firm make 50
percent more than those who do not.
And I don't have a citationfor that, but that is kind of
secondhand, what I've heard.
Cormac, you could probably verify if youfelt that that is potentially correct.

(06:46):
depends It depends on a lot of things.
It depends on your, what skills you have.
It depends on position, I'm sure.
But overall, I mean, your overall sensethat people who jump around earn more than
people who stay in architecture firms.

Cormac Phalen (07:00):
Yeah, it's definitely been my experience and, friends that
I've helped look for, jobs, that,they're like, Hey, I'm stuck here.
And I want to kind of, I've hitmy ceiling here, both in terms
of responsibility and in pay.
And so I want to, look aroundand see what else is out there.
And I've heard, almost every caseof that, depending on, the economy,

(07:23):
location, where they may be relocatingto if they're out of state but, for
the majority, everybody that I've evertalked to usually has an upward mobility,
at the very least, in their salaries.

Evan Troxel (07:35):
Who stay at firms, I mean, there's also this
issue of advocacy and people
who go to bat for you to make
sure that you're compensatedand kept at that firm.
another way that maybe it doesn't work.
They
have figured out the way to kind of.
make a great lifestyle just bystaying at a firm for extremely

(07:56):
long periods of time, Right.
Like, decades.
Like, I'm seeing LinkedIn anniversariesshow up in the over 25 years people
staying at the same firm, even recently.
So, I mean, it's not likeeverybody moves around for that
reason alone either, right?
So, I have a footnote here andI will say that I think a lot of
people don't leave a firm unlessthey get an offer that's higher.

(08:19):
Right.
And so, um, I bring that up becausein the question that I'm going
to read, it's like people alwaysquote unquote make more who leave.
I think people pretty much only leaveif they're going to get offered more.
well, those are the stories you hearbecause you don't hear about the
stories where people don't leavebecause they weren't offered more money.

(08:39):
So I think that that's kind of animportant asterisk to put up front.
The listener says, I have thoughtlong and hard about a podcast from
a month or two ago, and I don'tknow when we got this question in.
It's, it's fairly recent, but, we'll haveto go back and look at our episode numbers
to include something in the show notes.
Uh, it says where you are commenting aboutyoung designers and how they deal with

(09:00):
this industry financially, and one ofthose ways, salary wise, is to jump firms.
I, of course, have witnessed this,even in my own firm, and I delight
in working with someone who has.
all seen That seems to be thestory that we all tell ourselves.
Well, I am a specifier.
So this is where our guest for thisepisode comes in as the subject

(09:20):
matter expert, because this is reallyaround that type of role in a firm.
And the listener says,I will not mince words.
I came to this position with noexperience, again, kind of applicable to
our guest today, but now have eight years.
And maybe I know a few things.
I also admit I have much to learn.

(09:40):
But I have been, and this is in allcaps, aghast As I put myself out
there to obtain new position to seesalary offers that are substantially
below what I am currently making.
This goes against everything you,meaning Cormac and I, have ever
bantered about on the podcast.
You're supposed to make moremoney at the next job, right?
Or Maybe not.

(10:02):
Is this just how architecturalspecifiers are perceived?
So I think now the question becomeslike, well, if everybody's making more
money and I'm a specifier and I'm goingout there and I'm getting lower offers,
is this just a specifier thing, right?
So is this just how architecturalspecifiers are perceived that we are
worth so little that it is somehowjustified to offer us less than what

(10:24):
we might currently be making if weare just desperate to find work?
I'm.
It says, I may sound imperiousin this moment, but I would
love a measured response.
My impression is that one could bea complete milquetoast designer,
work somewhere for a year, and thenmove elsewhere, earn more money,
rinse, repeat, earn lots more money.
But those of us in nichepositions are kind of stuck.

(10:46):
We may never earn more than wecurrently make because essentially
our work isn't that valued.
It is, but isn't, orI honestly don't know.
Um, The important question here is justregarding the role of specifications, what
the value is for firms to have that rolein house, and what they're worth doing.

(11:10):
What they see is worthpaying for that position.
And then industry wide, what'sthe value of a specifier?
Is it going up?
And that's why we have Jeff on the show.
So Jeff, I mean, maybe let's juststart at the 30, 000 foot level.
And just talk about thisfrom an industry perception.
So maybe you can continue yourstory now from your role as a

(11:34):
specifier to what you've gone onto do after being a specifier.
And like the decisions that youmade through that transition.

Jeff Potter (11:45):
that's a good place to start.
So when I started spec writing,there wasn't any thought about
where this could take me.
A couple of years in, I realized, you knowwhat, I'm actually pretty good at this.
Like we can make this a career.

(12:06):
And so started thinking about,okay, what's it going to
take to get to the next step?
I definitely got lucky in, in some areas,Joe and Sherry, the, the two spec writers
on staff, there's three plus me, but they,they retired within a month of each other.
And when they retired, I was still aspecification coordinator Joe and I had,

(12:32):
had talked briefly about my career path.
When he left,
nothing ever came.
I was still a spec coordinator.
I used that job description tobasically prove that I needed
a promotion to a spec writer.

(12:56):
When I went to, new boss, I said, hey,you know, technically I can't write specs.
I'm not a spec writer.
I'm a spec coordinator.
It's not in my job description.
you now only have one full time specwriter who you expect to write, you know,
at, at the time we're doing, gosh, I thinklike a hundred plus new projects a year.

(13:19):
We're billing to, you know,a couple hundred projects.
You really expect him to do everythingand it was like, oh, well, You
know, write down everything thatyou've accomplished, give it to
me, and we'll see where it can go.
Ended up getting the promotion to, Ithink it was like, Spec Writer Level 1.

(13:40):
That was fantastic.
Part of that email was about salary.
The expectation of what a SpecWriter 1 was, and my salary
expectations, they didn't meet.
I thought I was still very much underpaid.
And so, you I developed this mindsetof, like, having to continuously prove

(14:10):
I'm worth it and that I need to becompensated more than, than what I was.
And so then a year went by, might havebeen like a year and a half, and I'm
sitting here saying like, I'm doing mostof the work, I'm doing really good at
this, everybody enjoys, Working with me.

(14:30):
think it's time to makethe next step again.
I had to go back to management and say,Hey, here's everything that I'm doing.
Can I, can I get a promotion?
Same thing happened.
Had to justify it.
Came back.
Yes.
the second time my salaryexpectations from, you know,
reading, reading the web and talkingto some others that I was still.

(14:56):
The great thing was I wentfrom hourly to salary.
That was very nice.
But in the back of my mind, it wasstill very much like, okay, now I
have to again, prove, continuouslyprove that I'm, I'm worth more.
And,

Evan Troxel (15:11):
to
right?
this is a, this is, important to say

Jeff Potter (15:14):
Yeah.
And I think for me, with socialmedia and movies these days, it's
like, Oh, when I ask for more money.
thinking that, Oh, it's going to be like20, 30, 000 more, than I'm making now.
My experience in this industryis that those types of financial

(15:38):
jumps don't happen unless you move.
Right.
If I'm making, let's just forsimplicity of math, if I'm making
50 and I think I'm worth 90.
And you go to your firmand say, Hey, I'm worth 90.
I want 90 or I want a hundred.
Most likely you're not goingto get I developed this mindset

(15:59):
that I am not replaceable.
Everybody's replaceable.

Evan Troxel (16:05):
Totally agree.

Jeff Potter (16:06):
This was like this big, kind of growing up that I had to do
during this whole time about salaryexpectations and the way it works
and the way that the, like, Therole bands are the job bands, right?
You can't have like a level one,project engineer make as much as a
project, engineer level three, right?
Like that doesn't really happen.
When you get promoted, then youmove up to the next salary band.

(16:29):
That's typically, what I'mlearning, through all of this.
And so as I was working, this was probablyaround 2018, I was like, all right,
I think it's time to look elsewhere.
And so, I started applying and Iwent through a series of interviews
with another large firm and wegot to the salary conversation.

(16:56):
it was definitely a lot more than whatI was making, but it didn't meet my
expectation of what I was actually worth.
And so the discussions kind of fellapart, but I used that to go back.
To my boss and say, Hey,I had an offer for this.
I can leave and go make thisamount, which was a substantial

(17:18):
more, than what I was making.
I got promoted again to, Ithink it was like level three.
The salary didn't meet my expectations.
It was a relatively small bump.
And so again, here I am thinkinglike, what do I need to do?
My loyalty is to this firm.
This firm is a fantastic place to work.

(17:41):
I love it.
Everybody there is fantastic.
Nothing bad to say about them.
Is this just part of the culture of theindustry to where If I want a sizable
jump, I'm going to have to leave.
Through the COVID years, itreally was working from home.
I ended up being the onlyspecification writer on staff and

(18:02):
was literally doing all of this.
And throughout this time, I gotextremely efficient in specs.
I got to the point whereI got bored writing specs.
There's this, Aaron Rodgersdocumentary that came out.
He's sitting on the busafter he wins the Super Bowl.
And he has this thoughtof like, what's next?

(18:23):
Like, I just won the Super Bowl.
What do I do next?
That was the thought that I hadduring the COVID years was I
accomplished everything that, I setout to, I'm bored, I'm on autopilot.
I literally can fallasleep and write specs.
Like that's how good I got.
What is out there for me next?
What's the next challenge?

(18:44):
Found this role at Dell tech and wentthrough the whole interview process and
was like, you know what, this is kind ofa once in a lifetime opportunity where if
it doesn't pan out, I can always fall backto spec writing, but if it works out like
this is fantastic, that's where I'm at.
The hard part about all ofthis was that firm loyalty.

(19:10):
I got sick for multiple weeks decidingwhether I wanted to leave or not.
I couldn't eat, was oncertain medications.
It was very bad because of how stressedI was making this decision of, this
firm has been great to me, I don'twant to leave, but the time, my wife

(19:31):
and I already had our oldest daughter.
were looking to have asecond one grow our family.
We had decided that because of childcarecosts and some other things that.
It was beneficial for her to stay home.
We couldn't do that off ofthis salary that I was making.
was really like this lifestyle decisionof, okay, what path do I want to go?

(19:56):
Do I want to stay here and work at agreat place knowing that, you know,
this is what I am making, whereas.
I can get a really big, significantjump and it can support the
lifestyle that I want to make.
And so I made that decision.

Evan Troxel (20:14):
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Cormac Phalen (21:49):
Oh, so much to unpack here.
Cause I will say one thing, Jeff.
Let's just say, and I've said this to,people who've, left firms that I've worked
for and stuff like that, it's just like,there's really no good, time to quit,
obviously, but it's you recognizing foryourself what's best for you, what's
best for your family, and, I know Evanand I can speak to our own experiences,

(22:13):
you have to make that decision.
You said something about,your loyalty to the firm.
And we all have experiencedthe loyalty, from our side.
And a lot of times peopledon't necessarily get
that, reciprocated loyalty.
You're talking about things like.
I've looked around, I've seen wheremy value could be in other places

(22:35):
with a salary bump of X or Y or Z.
And, you know, I want to stay here,but I also want to sort of feel
that love of, knowing what, knowingwhat my worth is on the open market,
do you know what my worth is here?
I don't know where we want to go with thisconversation, but there's so many things
that I've been thinking about, one, whenwe got the listener question, but then,

(22:57):
I was doing a little bit of homeworktalking to, our firm's spec writer.
I was talking to, other project managersabout how they bill for, specifications
and spec writing on our projects.
A lot of times, there's thiskind of skewed perspective
of what a spec writer does.
So I'm going to just throw this out here.
This could be a conversation, a directionof we go, we could go somewhere else,

(23:20):
but understanding and specificallythinking about the listener question was,
specifications yes, it is an unfortunateside effect in our profession is that
the people who specialize in doingthat, we don't place the same kind of
value on their project contributionas, others say, project architect or

(23:43):
project manager or things like that.
And that is a false narrativeof, you know, just, we.
Specifications are part, it is a50 percent equal of the contract
documents, as much as we place these,massive importance on the drawings,
if the specifications don't supportthose drawings, whether, it's through

(24:05):
design or your construction techniquesor whatever, the project will fail.
And so, you know, they, place theequal performance or equal, level of
importance

Evan Troxel (24:17):
Yeah.

Cormac Phalen (24:18):
on both in that, you know, there is no one greater than the other

Evan Troxel (24:22):
what the role of a specifier is worth to the company then?
Because that's really what we'retalking about here is we're
talking about risk mitigation,

Cormac Phalen (24:29):
Yes.
And that's the point whereI was going is that, you
know, we,
I was talking to, to, our, so there'sa little, this is a very timely
conversation that we're having here,so, you know, for full transparency,
our specifier, He's getting ready toretire and not to, distant future.
And, so now we, as a firm are startingto scramble, okay, what is next?

(24:51):
Do we look at SpecPoint?
Do we look at a third party,specifier that we bring in?
Or do we, look to, hire, And so,we're actually weighing, all three
options as options that we wouldbe pursuing within, the firm.
And so, you know, I don't know ifthey're going to be mad at me for
saying this or not, but put an adout on the streets for, a specifier.

(25:11):
Our specifier, told mewhat he was getting paid.
And I was sort of floored.
Not because it was low, becauseit was like joyfully high,
to be quite honest with you.
Higher than me.
You know, I'm not saying that he doesn'tearn it because, I mean, if you think
about it, Jeff, the position that youwere put in as one of maybe one or two

(25:36):
specifiers that were working on that levelof project number throughout the year.
means that you have a 50 percentstake in the risk management liability
for every single solitary project.
that's where the project specifier, that'swhere the value actually lies in ensuring

(26:00):
that, you know, we always say drawingsare not, always 100 percent and stuff.
Well, you know, Specs, a lot of times,save us when the drawings aren't quite
there because, you know, we know that,you know, okay, we're going to design
somewhat around a basis of design andthe specs are there to support it.
The specs are there to support it if,there's a question or things like that,

(26:24):
that levels of importance, that 50 50level of importance of, the drawings are
going to give you X amount of information.
The specs are going to giveyou X amount of information.
Together you get that a hundredpercent of the information and,
hopefully liability free, project.
If one is less than the other, thenyou've got problems, I'm listening to

(26:45):
your story and listening to the thoughtsof the listener question, it kind of
concerns me when firms don't see thatas an equal, at minimum an equal.
Importance to a project performance,the project success, keeping us out of,
litigation, because they think that,oh, well, you're not an architect.

(27:07):
So, you know, what are you contributing?
You are contributing at minimum 50percent of, risk management to a project.

Jeff Potter (27:15):
Yeah,
and

Evan Troxel (27:16):
think there's that aspect, Jeff, but the question is,
is like, do firms value specifiers.
So I think it ties right in with
what Cormac is asking, becauseit kind of depends who you ask,
talking to risk management, okay,
but if you're talking Or if you'retalking to the C suite, or if you're
talking to, You know, somebodywho is either, you know, directly
involved in whether you are goingto get that value in your role

(27:42):
through the form of a paycheckthrough your pay scale, right?
Because I think the important thingto point out here that maybe people
don't realize about large firmslike you've, you've heard Jeff
say, I was the single specifier.
When we were in the covid times, right?
the firm is doing 100 projects a year.
How many project teams is that, Jeff?
How many project teams are therein the firm doing 100 projects a

(28:05):
year like, of course, we can say
there's a lot of copy and paste andmaster specs and all of these things
that really help Accomplish this.
like you did, you took it onbecause, but of course you
would've loved more help, right?
, like So I just want to throw that outthere, as you're kind of formulating
your response and where we go

Jeff Potter (28:25):
Yeah.
when you were texting me earlier thisweek, I kind of had this moment of, when
you talk about value or worth, there'sactually, I think, Two parts to it.
There's the financial value and thenthere's the impact, the position value,

(28:46):
everybody that I've talked to, and Italked to a lot of folks at Dell tech,
no one has ever said that they don'tvalue specifications or specification
writers, even my own firm back in the day.
The financial side isvery different though.
I don't know if it's, Hey,this firm over here pays way

(29:11):
more than this firm over here.
I don't necessarily think that means thatthey value specifications more or less.
I think it's maybe more of what'smore valuable to a firm, somebody that
brings in the work or somebody that,

(29:31):
Prevent, lawsuits, right?
Cause that's really kind oflike when you think about it,
that's what specs do, right?
They keep you out of legal issues thatyou, there's no seeable result, right?
Like you don't know the impactthat somebody has because
it's never an issue, right?
'somebody that,

Evan Troxel (29:51):
right?

Jeff Potter (29:52):
like
brings in the work,

Evan Troxel (29:54):
they

Jeff Potter (29:54):
You can see the impact, right?
So, I think it's, tough.

Cormac Phalen (29:59):
so I'll follow up with that, this is a conversation
that we're having in our firm.
My firm's a lot like, your past firms.
In fact, I've actually eveninterviewed for your past firm.
We have a lot of repeat customers, orclients because of the job that we do,
the way that we've managed it, the waythat we produced our documents, the
way that we avoided, risks, avoidedlitigation and assisted with the whole,

(30:22):
slew, of problem solving is equally asvaluable and is equally as important
as the person who's going and knockingon the doors and saying, Hey, can we
provide you architectural services.
And we find more often than notthat we get a lot of, repeat clients
because of the work that we do.
And that is equal measure of architecturefrom the documentation standpoint.

(30:49):
And the architecture from thearchitectural specification standpoint.
You cannot have one without the other.
If you want this great design,you better have great specs.
Because if you don't havegreat specs, guess what?
You're not going to get the great design,

Evan Troxel (31:03):
how,

Cormac Phalen (31:04):
are one in the same.

Evan Troxel (31:05):
how well shared is that sentiment though, Cormac, in
the office, would you say acrossthe, like a cross section of a
team, you have that sense and you're
beating

Cormac Phalen (31:17):
Yeah.

Evan Troxel (31:18):
Do they understand that

Cormac Phalen (31:19):
I

Evan Troxel (31:20):
or you

Cormac Phalen (31:21):
I'm not a solo, trumpeter here, trying to just, say, remember,
not only do you have to do gooddrawings, but you got to do good specs.
I think a lot of people realize thatand understand that, the way that we
work and operate with our, spec writeris that they're an integral part.
From, at minimum SD.
Sometimes they're even, early on,depending on the client, way early into

(31:43):
concepts, if they are looking for specificinformation where we basically carry them.
All the way to the end ofconstruction document phase.
So CD phase, or even into, CA phasebecause, that's consistency, you always
get contractors who are looking forsubstitution requests, we, present
that to our spec writer to kind ofverify whether or not the substitution,

(32:06):
works with, the basis of design or theapproved equals or things like that.
We really do stress.
Here, the importance of, thespecs as a part of all of that.
I have worked for firms that don't.
I've worked for firms that basically doa lot of cut and paste of that, and I
remember my first spec that I ever wrote.
What a miserable, thing that was.

(32:28):
Because I was told, hey, thisproject's a lot like that project.
Why don't you take that, spec andjust, reformat all the headers and
footers and

Evan Troxel (32:35):
Just update

Cormac Phalen (32:36):
update it.
And of course, because of my timeconstraints and things like that, managing
the project and coordinating drawingsand coordinating everybody else that, for
lack of a better term, it was half assed.
And, it goes out to bid.
We have this conversation with the bidderswhere we start to get RFIs coming in and
they're like, can you tell me what thedesign intent for, this spec section is

(32:59):
because this manufacturer is either outof business or that's, they 15 years.
And a lot of times.
The project architects arein such a siloed space.
They don't have the time to do all ofthe research with the manufacturers
so we rely on our specifiers to dothat for us when they're doing their

(33:20):
specifications and we're providing them,say, cut sheets, or, you know, they're,
they're looking through the drawings tokind of ensure they'll basically say,
you know, like ours, very interactivewith all of the different project teams.
You know, Hey, do you understand Cormacthat, this project doesn't, I'm looking at
your design intent and it really doesn'tlike do exactly what you're looking for.
However, I did find this productthat can actually meet and achieve

(33:44):
or exceed what you're looking for.
And, you know, there is no, change indesign because of course architects,
I don't want to change my design.
Obviously, that's a cost killer as well.
So, I mean, to your question, I thinkthat we personally, and, to be honest with
the way that we bill, for a, specifier,we put them on the same level as,

(34:06):
like, say, a, senior project architector a project manager in basically the
billable hours that we, or at least the,

Evan Troxel (34:13):
rate

Cormac Phalen (34:14):
Yeah.
Sorry.
The rate.
Yes.
And then, you know, Again, I didn'task him, but he offered it up that his
salary is, very well compensated for theamount of work that he's requested to do.
Because Jeff, just like what youwere saying is like with the amount,
you know, the firm that I work forisn't as large as your old firm,

(34:36):
but does a lot of the similarprojects and we do a lot of projects.
Because I have three projects right now.
Let's just say he has 75, 80 projects.
that he has to deal with, that he hasto touch, that he has to interface with,
not just the project teams, but also, theengineers and all of those other things.

(34:57):
So, I mean, again, itgoes back to the value.
What are you bringing to the table?
And because of the value that we put inour firm as a spec writer, as valuable
as, say, a project manager or seniorproject architect, we take care of them.

Evan Troxel (35:14):
Well, I'm gonna point out where your firm is completely failed in
Basically Creating a role of mentorshipin that place and it could be that
they want that But they haven't hiredsomebody to shadow and learn from this
individual to become The person whocomes in and takes over that role when
they leave because you said they justput a job out on the street, right?

(35:37):
clearly they don't havethis person in mind.
And of course, you would love to hiresomebody in who already has all this
knowledge and maybe Jeff can speak tothis, because I don't, you can defend
your firm all you want, but I thinkthere's a lot of firms in this position
where it's like, Oh,
my God, I mean, Jeff, you were inan incredible place to have two
mentors at your earliest stage,which was great because you didn't

(36:01):
know jack about the position.
Even bringing somebody in witha specifications background,
they still need to learn theways of the firm it works
All of those things.
And if they're going to seriously waituntil you're ready to retire to do that.
It's way too late.
I see this in many roles in firms.
They're not proactively, like,this is the job of leadership, is

(36:22):
find your successors and train them,them, train them before something happens,
And there's, As a business decision,Which is what salaries are and it's
what it's all of these things that were
their business decisions like thisis a huge blind spot in our industry
on many levels but like seriously inspecifications because there aren't

(36:45):
that many people out there willingto do those roles like people do
not go to architecture school tobecome specifiers Jeff, I guess
this question's for both of you.
Cormac, you're clearly talkingabout, to me, it sounds like an
architect doing specifications.
The person writing the question into theshow is not an architect, came in with
zero experience, same time, my questionis, is the value higher when it is

(37:09):
because that person has professional,let's just call it liability.
Maybe they do.
Maybe they don't actually haveliability in the firm because,
but, there are You know, they'vebeen trained in architecture.
I'm just wondering if that changes theperception of the role in the individual.
In your experience, if youhave any thoughts on that,
maybe you do, maybe you don't.

Cormac Phalen (37:28):
It shouldn't be because it's not about the person.
It's about what is being produced.
And if you can get it produced throughwhichever means, project architect,
specification writer, that the endresult is still part of that deliverable.
That is part of your riskmanagement and should be respected

(37:52):
regardless of who's doing it.
So I'm going to throw it over to Jeff.

Jeff Potter (37:56):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
A lot of specifiers that I know havestarted in kind of a similar boat
where they don't have experience andthey are really great specifiers.
I think that there's thismisconception that you need 20,
30 years of industry experience toactually be able to write specs.

(38:20):
I think you can

Cormac Phalen (38:21):
Yeah,

Jeff Potter (38:22):
be a full time full fledged specifier within five years.
I don't think it takes that long.
The one, and I'm going to makean assumption here is when you're
with somebody that does not have anarchitecture background, or maybe

(38:43):
they do, but it's not as experienced,that individual is more flexible and
potentially more eager to learn becausethey don't have that experience.
So like in my case, I had to come havelike this come to Jesus moment where

(39:03):
I needed to say out loud to everybodythat came to me, I actually don't know.
I'm sorry.
I don't know the answer to thisquestion, but I'll find out for you.
when you have that attitude, regardlessof the position that you're in, really,
really valuable to project teams.
And then you build uponthat and you learn.

(39:26):
And when you are.
A 20, 30 year veteran of the industry.
Yeah, you might have that answer,
but it almost, I feel like pigeonholes
the potential solution intothis is how I've done it.
This is how

Cormac Phalen (39:46):
yeah,

Jeff Potter (39:46):
like,

Cormac Phalen (39:47):
Yes,

Jeff Potter (39:47):
problem in the industry.
And so if you came to me and said,Hey, you know, the big thing in
California when I started was.
It was CalGreen and we had to throw CI upon the outside of the wall and all this.
And it's like, okay,Hey, I have to do this.
What are the solutions?
Right.
And, you know, Hey, here are four or fiveviable solutions that you could go here.

(40:08):
not saying you won't get thatwith somebody that's much more
experienced, but it's like, Hey, thisis what we did on the past project.
We're just going to reuse itagain and again and again.

Evan Troxel (40:18):
Specifier, 100 projects.
Like the model you're telling me you're,you're saying like, it can't be like that.
And that is exactly what it is overand over again, because there's just
not enough people to do these roles.
And it's, it's kind of crazy to me thatfirms only have this for one or two roles.

Cormac Phalen (40:34):
Right,

Evan Troxel (40:35):
get
can handle the workflow, the workload,if you automate it to that level.
say, right, I'm not talking high techhere, but at the same time, it's like.
The things that you're talking,those are huge liabilities the
way we've always done it, right?
new innovation.
There's other products out there thatpeople just don't know about that
have been around for 10, 20 years.

(40:56):
And you just, it's newto you when you find it.
And there's no time for product research.
Like you're waiting for people tocome to you at the lunch and learn
and tell you about these thingsit's your lunch hour and you, you're
not going to spend your lunch hour.
researching new products becauselike enough is enough, right?
Like you, you're there to do your joband, and man, you're just bringing up

(41:16):
so many issues in the industry that weseem totally content, the, the royal we
as, as an industry, totally content justcontinuing with and it's kind of crazy.
I, I I want to shift the conversationa little bit to something that,
friend of the show, Evelyn Lee, 2025.
A.
I.
A.
President posted on linked in and her herclickbait headline, which is fantastic.

(41:42):
The future of architecture is bright.
Two bad firms keep pushing talent out,

Cormac Phalen (41:48):
Mm hmm,

Evan Troxel (41:48):
right, And, and so that's the lead, right.
That's the hook.
And then, she says, Architectureschools keep churning out passionate
creative designers ready toshape the built environment.
I don't think this is relegatedjust to designers, right?
Or even architecture graduates.
I think this directly appliesto what we're talking about.
And year after year, an alarmingnumber of them take one look at
traditional practice and say, Yeah,

(42:09):
no thanks.
And she cites some numbers.
Here, because I again, I don't thinkthis just applies to architecture
graduates, but it says, uh, the U.
S.
Will see a 15 percent drop in high schoolgraduates by 2025, meaning fewer students
even considering architecture by 2030.
We could see a shortfall of 80, 000.
Architects firms are struggling to retainthe people they already have, Industry

(42:33):
adjacent roles, like the one that you haveat Dell Tech now, Jeff, you went industry
adjacent to the software side, but it'sstill directly relating to architects.
And then 8500 architects leavethe profession each year, many
due to retirement, which I thinkspeaks directly to this role.
We see a lot of older individualsin specification roles in

(42:56):
firms, right,
you're kind of an exception.
And potentially our guestquestioner is in that boat as well.
I think this speaks to the exposure,how is the industry attracting talent?
In all kinds of roles, not justdesign roles, and technology roles,

(43:17):
non competitive salary ranges.
You can get paid a heck of a lotmore for a heck lot less risk in
other professions and industries.
The salary range in traditionalarchitecture is basically 50K to 200K.
Many professions have starting salariesat 100K or more that's the first
thing a lot of people are looking atwhen they're trying to decide where

(43:37):
they want to go in their career.
This just opens the door to theway architecture firms do business.
They're not willing to lookat new business models.
They're competing to do morewith less because of lower fees.
And I mean corporations jobreally is to pay everybody on
staff as little as possible.

(43:59):
To do the most that they canlike that's the definition of
like how you earn profit, right?
So, there's a lot of things pullingin different directions here.
I'm just curious with with Ithought this was a timely post
that Evelyn put up on LinkedIn.
We'll put a link to it in the show notes.
And I'll just point out one commentthat another friend of the show,

(44:20):
Lucas Gray, I'm put on there.
It says, actually, I already read it.
I didn't even realize it.
This was something that Lucas said.
He said, you can get paid a heckof a lot more for a heck of a lot
less, risk in other professions.
So that was his comment.
And I thought that was reallyappropriate for, for like adding on to.
And so again, we'll put a linkto her post in the show notes.

(44:41):
You'll see Lucas's comment inthere and others comments as well.
I think there's a lot of people whoare Transcribed I mean, we've had
Jake Rudin on the podcast beforefrom out of architecture, right?
Big advocate for peoplegetting paid their value
in architecture and firms just notoffering that to people, right?
Because of the way that the professionhas operated for decades and decades

(45:03):
you guys have any thoughts about.
That angle of it.

Jeff Potter (45:12):
not coming
architecture background
at a firm for as long asI was and seeing younger
come in.
The expectation is that,again, from what I see is.

(45:35):
I'm going to be designing.
I'm going to change the world.
Well, truth is you're, you're doingbathroom details for, for 10 years.
You're a Revit junkie.
I mean, that's really kind of whatyou are for a good portion of it.

Cormac Phalen (45:49):
Yeah, I

Jeff Potter (45:51):
I mean, you told me this and I had to look it up to kind of
validate it, but how long does it take?
For an individual to be licensed asan architect within this industry.
It's somewhere in the neighborhoodof like 11, 12, 13 years.

Evan Troxel (46:07):
think it's 13 now.
when back, back when I didit, that was the average

Jeff Potter (46:12):
That's

Evan Troxel (46:13):
that was an average, And I
are both beyond

Cormac Phalen (46:15):
yeah.
Well, we were both 17 years intoour career when we got licensed,
you know, because of the challengesand everything else, right?

Evan Troxel (46:23):
Yeah, that's after five years of school.

Cormac Phalen (46:25):
Yeah, exactly.

Jeff Potter (46:26):
so when you think about the pay scale that we've been
talking about, the average pay ofan architect was somewhere in the
range of 130 or something, whateverGlassdoor said, that's the average pay.
So if I'm not a licensed architect, andwhen I do get licensed, I'm probably
like level one or something, right?
So
even I'm not even close to that range.

(46:47):
And I'm not going to promoteanother profession here, but
the trades are really suffering.
And when you

Cormac Phalen (46:54):
Yeah.

Jeff Potter (46:56):
Hey, I can go do a trade or I can become
And in 10 years, you may evenhave the ability to start your
own contracting business, right?
Like there is much better growthand opportunity on that side.
Plus you have.
which I think is alsoan interesting point.
I was kind of looking at thisearlier this week about and thinking,

(47:20):
cause I saw Evelyn's post as well.
Like what would shiftthis narrative, right?
If we're talking about doing thingsslowly, this is like a generational
shift that we're not going to see.
You know, anytime soon, what couldbe an overnight impact to this?
And it's like, well, know, we all hear,we all say like the model is broken.

(47:40):
What can immediately fix themodel unionization, right?
Is that, is that good or bad?
I, I don't know.
But if we're looking for solutionsabout having to not work as much,
fair pay, when you talk about AIcoming in, job protections and all
of this, like, that's somethingthat we all have to, to think about.

(48:01):
Otherwise the industry in five to 10years is not going to be in the same
spot that it's going to be in now.
And it very well could be in a worseposition, than it is trying to find
resources and things like that.

Evan Troxel (48:17):
I'll just say that I think one thing that.
the profession actually does give toindividual and I'll say architects, but
I think it applies to the specificationsrole as well is an avenue to.
Do something yourself like every personis equipped to not have to work at a
large firm not be beholden to thoserules, but then the onus is on the

(48:40):
individual to Figure all of that outright to write their own contracts become
consultants for firms or just run theirown practices and create their vision
Their model that they want to pursue,and it doesn't have to be based on
those old models at all and somethingthat Cormac and I have talked about.

(49:01):
And maybe Jeff, you could speak tothis a little bit because of the
role that you're in now at Dell Techand in a technology company, Right.
Is like the tool stackfor an architect today.
Big firms don't.
I mean, there's a lot of resourcesin big firms, but for the most
part, the workflow hasn't shiftedaway from BIM in quotes, right?

(49:22):
But there's a lot of new toolsout there that enable people to
do a lot more with a lot less
and really focus on where thevalue of an architect lies.
Do you see that for specifiers as well?
With technology, are you comfortablehandling that many projects?
What now would you say is differentabout, specifications than it was
ten years ago, five years ago, thatyou really feel like puts you maybe

(49:47):
in an advantageous perspective, androle for a company or as a consultant?

Jeff Potter (49:53):
Yeah,
the technology has improved quite a bit.
The age of the specifier is only going up.
So the audience is not getting younger.
When you look at generationX, attention span of Gen X is
about like 8 to 10 minutes.

(50:15):
When you look at Millennials,it's about 10 to 12 seconds.
And then when you get to GenZ, it's like 8 to 10 seconds.
They're flipping through TikTokand Instagram all day, right?
Our brains are becoming more visualthan what they were in the past.
you look at a specification,Is that visually appealing?

(50:38):
No, writing specifications is boring.
And that was

Evan Troxel (50:42):
This is why most architects are allergic to specifications, right?

Jeff Potter (50:45):
So we're trying to take the path of you're always
going to need a three part spec.
because of lawyers.
For, for contract and whatever else.
Are there alternative ways to achieve thatthree part spec besides looking at text?
That's what we're, that'swhat we're looking at.
We're trying to gear for.

(51:05):
We know that the spec writer isprobably, there's other roles within
a firm that touch specs, but are notnecessarily seeing the specs, right?
A Revit junkie is modeling likea curtain wall or a storefront.
They're looking at product datasheets, but they don't see the impact.
So is there a way that we can connect thetwo so that they are able to connect the

(51:29):
dots visually and transfer informationfrom one to the other, and then output a
three part spec without really having tolook at the specifications, completely.
So,

Cormac Phalen (51:42):
the way that it's been done in the past,

Jeff Potter (51:44):
what do you mean by

Cormac Phalen (51:45):
We've been, trying out, the DelTec, specs, I don't know if you
know this, Evan, but, DelTec purchased,MasterSpec, and now, it's all run through
that and then there's the program,SpecPoint that is, evolving out of that,
the spec writing process a little bitmore interactive, a little bit more,
engaging so that it's a lot easier.

(52:05):
I mean, but if you think about it, thereason why people, either did the cut
and paste method or, didn't want toget into it at all was because they're
sitting there reading, thousands oflayers of text and it's just boring and
it's just like, I don't understand whatthe ASTM, requirements are for this.
So, I don't want to do it, but thenthere's, where they're, it's starting to,
evolve into, other ways of writing specs.

(52:29):
That's a lot, user friendly.
Being able to engage, still within kind oflike the master spec kind of like realm,
but making it a little bit easier forthe user to adopt and understand, okay,
this is, as Jeff, you're saying, becauseyou're far more, geared towards it.
But yeah, my pro, one of my, smallerprojects is kind of like the, the

(52:49):
test mule for, for SpecPoint, so

Evan Troxel (52:52):
But, but they're basically off, they're basically outsourcing
specifications away from a spec writer.
We kind of talked about this alot when we were going through the
motions here, because your workloadwas so big, how can people help?
Because they're
not hiring.
You can't find, can't hire.
don't want to, but.
Like that's what we're talkingabout here, Cormac, right?
We're talking about using a toolto get the team more involved in

(53:16):
specifications because specificationsaren't going away and there's a
limited bandwidth or there'snot enough people doing that.

Cormac Phalen (53:24):
I will say we're approaching it a slightly different
way that we still are not trying toeliminate the role of a spec writer,

Evan Troxel (53:31):
Yeah, I'm
outsourcing to outside the company,but outsourcing The creation of a
spec book to the team, much more sothan it ever has been in the past,
because I correct me if I'm wrong,Jeff, I don't even know, actually.
So how does that work?
Because is it, is it still based onthe model or is it, or is it actually
a separate, completely separate app?

(53:53):
And, but it's justeasier to use now because
people have more,

Jeff Potter (53:58):
we believe that the role of the specifier is going to change
in 5 to 10 years, that it's notgoing to be the same, as it is today.
The tools that we have in place now are,really geared about selecting products.

(54:19):
So we have this feature inSpecPoint called Product Selection.

Evan Troxel (54:22):
this is not sponsored way, Jeff, if you

Jeff Potter (54:24):
Yeah, we'll bring it up, but
basically it's like, as the individualgoes through the spec, they can actually
select products that they want toadd, and then it automates certain
parts of part two, so that they don'thave to specify You know, the most,
time sucking part of a spec writer,it's really the product research.

(54:47):
So how can we make a singlesource of truth, bring products
in there, and then open it up to,entire team to select products?
Because really, a spec writer, ifyou are a sole spec writer at a
firm, in all honesty, you're onlyas good as the information that you
get from the project team, right?

(55:09):
Right.
Like if you come to me and say,Hey, I want this scoreboard.
Dude, is a blank product sheet.
Like you didn't tell me anything.

Cormac Phalen (55:16):
Hey.

Jeff Potter (55:16):
Right.
How do we shift that narrative toput the onus on the product team to
actually supply that information firstand then can we actually automate it
so that you're not necessarily takingthe specifier out of the equation.
It's just that the role is changing,to more of this information
management type of role, verysimilar to a BIM manager, right?

Cormac Phalen (55:39):
Yeah.

Jeff Potter (55:39):
model, know, Revit families from scratch
doing whatever they need to do.
The specification writer may turninto something like that where
they're, managing the specifications,but they're not actually per se,
writing them, selecting options,choices, doing that sort of thing.
So it's a really interestingavenue that we're taking.

Cormac Phalen (56:01):
Yeah.

Evan Troxel (56:03):
Go for it, Cormac,

Cormac Phalen (56:04):
Well, I was going to say, to that point, one of
the comments that, we've made.
In past conversations and, within ouroffices, when we start to have this
disconnect from the project team tothe specifications where, somebody
said, well, what are the specs saying?
Like, I don't know.
I didn't write it, you have that kindof complete disconnect in 50 percent

(56:24):
of your contract documentation.
Looking at avenues like this, they'restarting to engage the project team
in understanding what's actually partof the overall deliverable so that
they can't use that excuse of like, Idon't know, I didn't write the spec.
You get a little bit more interactionand that I'll say that that's sort

(56:45):
of been the soapbox that I've beenpulling out in, yelling from is like,
we need to have people fully understandevery bit of what's going out on the
streets because as you're managing itthrough construction administration,
if you're unfamiliar with what isactually in the specifications, you're
already working backwards, you're not

Evan Troxel (57:04):
but there's no
to do that.
The point is it has tobe easily accessible
and, can do the, what Jeff did andsay, man, I'll find out, right?
Like that,
information.
And guess what?
We're only putting evenmore into our projects now
because of technology, right?
And CYA and all of those things.

Cormac Phalen (57:24):
Yeah.

Evan Troxel (57:24):
I agree like, Yeah.
man, that would be fantastic if morepeople knew and didn't just point fingers
and say, I don't know that person did it.
it's probably, you know, throwing
your own teammate Um,
But it does happen.
Instead just like shared ownership of
this 50
Of the project deliverables.

Cormac Phalen (57:43):
Yeah.

Evan Troxel (57:44):
So I guess final question is just overall sentiment.
Does the profession dofirms value specifiers?
I mean, Jeff, what do you thinkas far, you've been the closest
to the metal on this, what'syour gut feeling say about that?

Jeff Potter (58:03):
does the industry value the role of the spec writer?
Yeah, I think most firms do valuethe spec writer and what they,
what they bring to the table.
Do they value the financialcompensation of the spec writer?
I think that's a different story.

(58:24):
And I think we see that not just withina spec writer, but in a lot of positions,
where it's, yeah, you do have peopleleave because financially it just
doesn't make sense to stay where you dosee people hop there and hop and hop.
And, you know, it's not necessarilyvertical improvement, it's
horizontal improvement, right.
I think it's not black orwhite in that sense, there's a

(58:46):
lot to this conversation that

Cormac Phalen (58:48):
Yeah.

Jeff Potter (58:48):
Scratched the surface on,

Cormac Phalen (58:52):
evan, if we inserted, spec writer.
Project Architect or whateverand kind of that thing.
It really is a yes or no answer,you know, because there's yes, but,
and Jeff hit it, you know, perfectly,

Evan Troxel (59:05):
and.

Cormac Phalen (59:05):
You know, because I think Jeff hit it, right on the head
is that I think, We know that there'sthe importance of, the specifications
as part of the overall deliverables,but how do we value and pay properly
the people who are actually doing them?
I don't think a lot of firmsreally sit back and think about the

(59:25):
implication of, doing a good or badjob, as part of risk management.
And so, It's as much as everybodyelse in our profession is
assessing where the values are.
I think you said it best earlierin the conversation about, it
is the corporation's job to,get the most for the least.
And, you know, even our clientsask for, the most for the least.

(59:50):
Jeff, you said this there is goingto need to be a shift a cultural
shift in, placing value, far beyondprofit that, it's going to be hard
because like, I mean, hell, we're.
It's as much of a capitalist,profession as anyone else where,
you're looking to maximize theprofits for, longevity and viability

(01:00:13):
of the firm in the long run, right?
But, how do you do that?
You control and kind of squirrelaway all of your profits for,
those rocky periods of time.
But sometimes the rocky periods oftimes are when you're losing talent
it's costing you more to replace them.

Evan Troxel (01:00:29):
Quite a bit more.

Cormac Phalen (01:00:30):
Yeah.

Evan Troxel (01:00:32):
Okay, final, 5b question I want both of you and I'll maybe
be the last person to go here.
What would you do in this questioners?
Shoes if you were the questionerand you were kind of disillusioned
by what you found out Jeffmaybe this is really applies.
I think to where Youwere we saw what I know.
what you did You've kindof explained it here

(01:00:54):
But if you were to do it all again,or let's just talk about advice
What advice would you give to tothis question or about like what?
Where do you go?
When the news you get is not what youwere hoping for, I think we've all gone
out looking and we've all gotten offersback that didn't meet expectations.
Jeff, you
talked directly Okay, so what?
Where would you go from there?

Jeff Potter (01:01:15):
Yeah, luckily we're within an industry where you have multiple facets.
You've got the A and the E, and thenyou got the C, the O, and the BPM.
with the AE, go look at manufacturers.
Go look at

Evan Troxel (01:01:31):
And they should.

Jeff Potter (01:01:32):
look at owners.

Cormac Phalen (01:01:33):
Yeah, they do.

Jeff Potter (01:01:34):
yep, I will

Evan Troxel (01:01:35):
a lot of spec writers help,

Jeff Potter (01:01:36):
yes,
and I will tell you that
the pay is quite a bit better,

Cormac Phalen (01:01:43):
Yeah.

Jeff Potter (01:01:43):
It, like, there's no doubt about it, there's no
question, that's why you see alot of architects go to that side.
You know, there's pros and cons, right?
Maybe a little bit more travel here andthere, or, you know, maybe you're on
the road a little bit more, whatever.
But if you're looking for maybe a prettybig increase financially, yeah, go check
out those other arms of the industry.

(01:02:03):
You might be surprised.

Evan Troxel (01:02:06):
What say you, Cormac?

Cormac Phalen (01:02:08):
Well, I mean, a lot of what Jeff just said, the advice
that I would give is that there are,
you're going to find opportunitiessomewhere within the profession.
Whether you want to stay withinthe conventional firm framework.
If you're looking at certain firmsthat, don't value you or are not
going to pay you what either you'regetting paid now, which is kind of

(01:02:30):
the point of the listener's question,or, what your expectations are,
there are firms out there that will.

Evan Troxel (01:02:37):
Willing to move
to find them,
For this kind of thing.
seems like this is a greatrole for that, right?

Cormac Phalen (01:02:43):
And that is an evolving opportunity as well is,
looking at, whether or not, Hey, Iwant to take this job that might be,
on the other side of the country.
However, I don't reallywant to relocate there.
And, a lot of firms are lookingfor more and more remote,
and that's the opportunity.
It just depends, but then, let's justsay Jeff's a perfect example of how

(01:03:04):
you answer this because working inthe conventional model, gets you maybe
job satisfaction or things like that.
That's great.
You know, but if the loyalty isn't twoways, and you're not, feeling the love
from the financial aspect, even though youliterally have your hands in everything.
Every single solitary project withinthe firm, then, you look elsewhere.

(01:03:24):
And then if you find that value.
outside in the C, you know, on the techside of things, the contractor side of
things and things like that, go and dothat, go and look at, how a manufacturer
uses spec writers, which we know they dobecause, they're the ones who are having
to have, Help and craft and create allof the testing and all of that other
stuff and, are influenced in that and,the things that, the architects are

(01:03:48):
beating on the streets like, I don'treally want to know, I don't need to,
as Evan, you were saying, we can't knoweverything within the specs, so, I mean,
like, I don't know all of the new andupdated, code compliant testing that each
of these products need to, adhere to.
That's why I, rely on the spec writeror, the product manufacturer to
tell me what it needs to conform toand then help me guide my way into

(01:04:11):
whether or not I'm detailing it right.
Sometimes it may, require a little bitmore patience, but you're going to find
the person out there that values you.

Evan Troxel (01:04:22):
this
Out and I think that can be a greatchallenge to take on and maybe life
doesn't allow for that at this time.
I have no idea the, actual situation whenit comes to, obviously, the questioner
feels like they should be making moremoney, for the value that they provide.
And I would say, Cormac and I arekind of an example of this on some

(01:04:43):
way, and I think Jeff, you are too.
On some level, take your future.
Into your own hands and the
way that Cormac and I did thatwas through starting this podcast.
You can take the matters into yourown hands and become an advocate for
things become a resource to others onthe internet like using the internet

(01:05:03):
right to Create something that bringstogether a community get involved in and
maybe this person already is involvedin different You know csi and there's
there's Uh, conferences and thingslike that for networking, but there's
lots of ways to share knowledge.
Like I even think about ChristineWilliamson's Building Science Fight

(01:05:25):
Club, Instagram channel, it's justsomething that she started doing to
show the world things that matterwhen it comes to detailing for
waterproofing and other things as well.
It's a way to share knowledge and become.
A recognized go to expert in a field orin a role or inside of the architectural

(01:05:46):
profession, that opens opportunities.
It opens recognition.
Come speak on a podcast and buildprofessional reputation adjacent
to your firm where maybe youaren't getting what you need.
And I can't tell you how manyopportunities that's opened up
professionally, personally, for me.

(01:06:09):
I'm kind of talking for Cormac too.
Like there's just been some really,we've been on panels, we've been
invited to speak at places we obviouslyhave a following on the podcast
and people continue to show up andeven ask great questions like the
one asked today for us to answer.
But my hands are a little different thanthe two guys who just spoke before me

(01:06:30):
is, is like how can you take this intoyour own hands and do something with it
and turn lemons into lemonade on, youknow, and, and maybe you don't leave
the A side of the profession, butI think it's worth checking out and
kind of knowing what your options are.
There's, there's lots of differentways to fulfill your talents.

(01:06:50):
In this industry industry adjacent andfigure out ways to accomplish your goal
of making more money for the value,but also providing even more value and
finding out, you don't have to know
where it leads.
It can actually lead in placesyou've never even dreamed of.
So, very good discussion.
Thank you all
for.
Thanks to our questioner for asking it.

(01:07:10):
That's askarkospeak.
com.
Get your questions maybeaddressed on the show.
Ask good questions, well formedquestions and give us enough context
like this questioner did to reallymake something out of this episode that
hopefully provides value to the audience.
And Jeff, thank you so much for taking the
time to hang out with us today and toshare your experiences, good and bad.

(01:07:32):
I think that's something we don't want tosugarcoat our profession and make it sound
like it's something that it's not likethere's definitely challenges and there's
personal challenges as well as industrychallenges that we're all dealing with and
I think it's worth saying them out loud.
Right, to go back to something you saidearlier, like I have to say this out
loud, uh, it's what we're thinking,but the conversation that's in public

(01:07:53):
is hopefully gonna make a difference.
So thanks for hanging out with us today.

Jeff Potter (01:07:57):
Thank you for the invite.
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