March 17, 2025 • 44 mins
In this episode we welcome Helena Sawelin from Tillberg Design to explore the evolution of cruise ship design. Helena shares her company's impressive 60-year legacy and their expertise in luxury cruise, yacht, and residential ship design, along with their commitment to sustainability. She reflects on her 30-year progression from FF&E designer to business director, while highlighting the industry's transformation toward greener technologies and eco-friendly materials. The conversation delves into current trends in mid-size and luxury cruise ships—from seamless indoor-outdoor spaces to health and wellness amenities—and examines social media's influence on cruise tourism and design. Helena emphasizes how strong customer relationships and enduring design solutions play crucial roles in advancing sustainability.
About the Guest:
Helena has worked at TDoS since 1995, during this time, she has worked with some of the largest and most prestigious clients in the marine business, working also with high-end hotels, yachts, and high street boutiques.
Episode Sponsor - Bromic Heating
This episode has been made possible with the generous support of Bromic Heating.
Episode Links:
- Helena Sawelin on LinkedIn
- Tillberg Design of Sweden website
- Tillberg Design on LinkedIn
- Tillberg Design on Instagram
- Bromic website
- Eclipse heaters
- Bromic heater Revit and CAD files
- Design service with a heating expert
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Evan Troxel (00:10):
Welcome to the Archispeak podcast.
And today we are joined by Helena andyou tell me how, how do you pronounce
your name in the true Swedish Helena?
Nice.
Helena Sawelin (00:20):
Helena Sawelin is my, I pronounce it in Swedish, yes.
Cormac Phalen (00:23):
we wouldn't have gotten that.
Evan Troxel (00:24):
I would not have pronounced it correctly.
So thank you for, for taking that on.
And maybe
you can start off by telling us about yourstudio and the type of work that you do.
Helena Sawelin (00:34):
Oh yeah.
so, um,
Tillberg Design, it's an, uh,
Old company.
It's, uh, 60 year celebration we have.
and, um, we are working with a big, bigcruise ship and that is maybe we could
call what we have done from the beginning.
It has been with Robert Tillbergthat started it a long time ago.
(00:58):
During the years and we havefollowed the market, of course,
and the change that has happened.
it has been a little bit more.
Yacht like cruise ship, uh, the lastcouple of, let's say almost 10 years
have coming in, in a different way.
You could call it hotel yachts,uh, residential yachts, uh,
(01:20):
and also people wants to have aprivate, uh, apartment on board.
So we can see that change has alsocome the last couple of years.
So the, the industry has changed a littlebit, but cruise ship is what we have.
done exterior design, interiordesign, uh, master planning.
(01:42):
Uh, so we, we are very advanced whenit comes to, uh, the cruise ship
design, uh, and, and can actuallytailor, tailor made it for the client.
We also have the last couple of years,we have bought two companies, Talia
Marine, that is Naval Architect, andtogether with them, we are, Having
(02:03):
this, uh, competence in, in ourcompany today with, uh, engineering.
Uh, so that is very beneficial.
Evan Troxel (02:11):
So can you give us an idea of your background
? Helena Sawelin: So my background, I'm, uh, started as an FF&E designer 30 years back.
putting together the materials,working in the team, of course,
um, meeting the clients, wasparticipating in the yard meetings.
So, so all that has been, of course,uh, growing, uh, well, with, with all
(02:34):
that means as an FF&E designer, butit's main, mainly putting together,
uh, making it colorful, let's say, uh,the design, with, um, Everything from
carpets to furniture and all that.
And during the year, we were growing.
I had become a mentor, taking, let'ssay, educating our new employees,
(02:56):
uh, FF& E people that was coming in.
We were growing quite dramatic from 2000.
Let's say 13, 14, 15, up to 19,we were growing quite a lot.
So then I become a littlebit more mentoring also.
And then from 2018, I was morelooking into the business.
(03:19):
director.
Um, so today I'm a little bit morebusiness director having my clients
working close to them and also have ateam that I am working very close to
and make sure that we, we are followingthe guidelines from the clients.
Uh, and also lookinginto the sustainability.
Sustainability has become a verybig part of the design today.
(03:41):
so I'm, I'm looking intothe sustainability, uh, in
the cruise industry as well.
Cormac Phalen (03:47):
one of the things that I kind of noticed as
I was doing a little bit of researchon your company is you have a
lot of designers that come from avariety of different backgrounds,
architecture, interior design,
Helena Sawelin (03:58):
Yeah.
Cormac Phalen (03:59):
and how does, we've, we've had in the past a lot of discussion
with other people who followed nonlinear Kind of like design paths to
different aspects of design,whether it's, going into product
design or architecture, interiordesigners and things like that.
how does the background of say, an FF& Edesigner or, interior designer architect.
(04:23):
lead to, cruise shipand, um, yacht design.
I mean,
I could see a parallel,but it just seems like an
interesting kind of like pathway to get to
that, area.
And I'm just kind of curious,not saying that, maybe I should
send my resume, but you know,
Helena Sawelin (04:42):
all the people is educated, uh, Architects
or interior designers.
And of course, as I say, the,the, the education is for the land
based industry in the first case.
Uh, but.
You have to learn, uh, basically,uh, and you have the experience to,
(05:02):
well, you, you need to have experienceto be the marine interior designer.
There is not really an educationfor that, what I understand, so you
have to actually learning by doing.
So when we were growing dramatically,as I said, uh, Well, from, let's say,
around 2015 and onwards, we did whatwe call an ABC internal education.
(05:24):
So, everybody had this on board educationto learn what is marine industry, what is,
um, yeah, everything that is necessary.
We had a very good program, we cancall it, with our most experienced
people that were helping our newemployees, architects, to actually
(05:45):
understand the difference between aland based to a marine interior design.
Because there's so many,so many different things.
Requirements, uh, fire requirements,uh, uh, health and care and many other
things that we have to just understand.
Uh, and yeah, that is superimportant to, to have this.
Cormac Phalen (06:08):
do you feel like there was a hard learning curve between kind of like
land based design to marine based design?
Helena Sawelin (06:16):
Yes, somehow, well, when it comes to the regulation, uh,
we have Norska Veritas and, uh, well,yeah, it is a lot of, it is a big
difference actually, but, uh, we havealways had, uh, Experienced people in
the company and they have stayed herefor more than 30 years, many of them.
(06:39):
So we always have this group of peoplethat has a possibility to learn.
And of course, when you have learnedand it's, yeah, like bicycling almost,
Evan Troxel (06:50):
Nice.
Cormac Phalen (06:50):
Yeah.
Helena Sawelin (06:51):
but anyway, it's, um, it has a certain regulations.
And of course they are, Also, somenew regulation is happening sometimes,
so you have to learn them as well.
But we know what source to go andlook for, and the YARD is always
also, um, up to date, of course.
So it's, it's an, let's say,changing experience and education
(07:14):
between the YARD and us.
So, yeah, it's
Evan Troxel (07:20):
Cormac, have you ever been on a cruise ship before?
Helena Sawelin (07:22):
um, um,
Cormac Phalen (07:24):
to the scale of some of the things that, uh,
that their company does.
I was looking at a lot of their projecttypes and I'm like, wow, I'm missing out.
Evan Troxel (07:35):
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's different.
And I think that's what's so attractive
about it, right?
It's very different.
But, but at the sametime, it's about space.
It's about, it's
about creating experiences,
but also like in the self contained thingthat's, it's like a city on water to
some extent,
right?
Where it has to be fully selfsufficient, fully functional, and
(07:57):
can only really rely upon itself.
and I think that's what'sso interesting about, it.
About it as a category that's differentfrom the normal architectural projects.
But also, I'm curious, Helena,what, what has changed?
because I mean, obviously there's maybemore of a luxury aspect to it now.
It's gotten a lot higher design andalso you mentioned sustainability, but
(08:21):
What else have you noticed has, hasreally changed because I would say like
the cruise ships that I've been on,the first one was when I was 12 years
old, and then during my honeymoon, mywife and I went on an Alaskan cruise.
And I
mean, I would very much say that the U.
S.
cruise lines that we were on,which are not the luxury high end
things, are like a casino on thewater, for the most part, right?
(08:43):
Like, it's
very it feels very Vegas, where it's like,it's really trying to be eye candy, it's,
it's focused on a few, Programmaticpieces, like, you know, there,
there's obviously a lot of sellinggoing on, on these kinds of cruise
ships where they're trying to get youto buy their jewelry and their art, and
there's the casino and then there'sthe, the, the spa experiences
(09:05):
and things like that.
So
I'm curious what you've seen shift overthe years as you've gotten more and more
into, into the, the world that you're in.
Helena Sawelin (09:14):
Yeah, I mean, first of all, today you can divide it in the large
cruise ship, mid size, and then the small.
And it's about one third of each,if you look into how many cruise
ships there are out there today.
So, of course, the largest cruiseship, I mean, first of all, the
(09:35):
cruise ship has grown in size,
uh, extremely.
Evan Troxel (09:40):
my son is an aficionado and
Helena Sawelin (09:42):
yeah.
Evan Troxel (09:42):
because he, all the way back to the Titanic, I mean, he was, he
studies the Titanic and
he talked about, you know, a coupleof years about, about the ICON OF THE
SEAS, which is this mega, mega, mega,
insanely huge cruise ship.
Helena Sawelin (09:57):
Yeah,
it is.
So, I mean, today we can see thissuper, super large cruise ship for
more than 5, 000 passengers and well.
It's even more.
It's 8, 000 to some of them.
But anyway, it's, um, It's like a city,as you say, and there you, that is
(10:20):
for one type of passengers that wantto be spending, have full activity.
Uh, so still that trend isongoing, but it is one type of
passengers that enjoy that most.
And then we can see the midsize hasbecome, It has always been that.
(10:40):
I think it was more the mid sizecruise ship, well, and smaller in
the beginning, of course, when thecruise industry started 60 years back.
But, um, I would say mid sizeis coming back a little bit.
People enjoy, um, that size whenyou have connection to the ocean
a little bit more and you feel youare actually on board somewhere.
(11:03):
Um, But what we definitely can see isthe luxury segment has been growing.
When I started 30 years back, it waslike an, uh, you made almost like a
coulisse it was extremely, colorfuland it was you could feel it was
a big difference to go on a cruiseship compared to go to a hotel.
(11:23):
I could
see the trend has become thedesign is a little bit more like
a hotel like trend on board today.
to the midsize and the luxury segment.
And we can also see how the indooroutdoor areas is connected to each other.
You have this big window,sliding open doors.
(11:43):
You have almost like a livingroom on the outdoor areas.
Um, so it's connected, indoor outdoors,more connected as a living room.
So that trend has become quite a lotof people want to, To have this luxury,
let's say, barefoot luxury, as we callit, where you can just have a layback
(12:04):
style, sophisticated layback style.
Cormac Phalen (12:07):
So, how do you Because it's kind of interesting people go
on a cruise because they want tohave that connection to the water,
the ocean and things like that.
But, as the trend starts to shift a littlebit more towards, feeling like you're on
a hotel, now you're on a floating hotel.
How do you still maintain kind ofthat magic or that essence of being
on the water, but then also providingthose high luxuries of, say the five
(12:31):
star hotel and things like that?
Helena Sawelin (12:33):
well, you can see when it comes to the luxury, it's also about
the number of crew, you could say, almosthow, the attention from the crew and you
can give, let's say the drink is coming
directly when they're ordering it.
Uh, and people also wants totravel a little bit more seamless.
Everything is prepared.
You almost have this red carpet when youwalking wherever and everything is very
(12:57):
smoothly transitioned to, to all parts.
So I would say that is also Oneimportant thing when it comes to
the luxury segments, especially.
so I think the cruise, the differentsize of cruises is a little bit
different kind of directions.
When it's a bigger cruise ship,they're going out to their own islands.
(13:18):
Usually they have an own island,
the cruise ship.
So they go out there and spend afew days or one day or whatever and
they can go back again to a port.
But when you have this midsize, uh, Youalso have another kind of fuel, especially
to the sustainability today, you maybehave a hybrid fuel, so you can stay to
these hidden gems a little bit more.
(13:40):
People want to find these hidden gems alittle bit more than they was in the past.
They want to tell their friends backhome that, wow, have you seen this?
This is something new,you have never been there.
And today with this sustainable,That is coming a little bit more
and more with another, uh, let'ssay green methanol or whatever.
They have a green fuel system.
(14:02):
They are able to stay toanother destination a little bit
longer, maybe two days instead.
And that is something new that is coming.
Cormac Phalen (14:12):
right.
Evan Troxel (14:16):
don't know.
It's kind of bragging rights, I guess,where people want to talk about these
really exquisite and exclusive places thatthey've been that they can only access.
but also social media has reallyplayed a big role in this, and that's
where a lot of people are gettingexposed to the idea of these things.
So, I mean, it's interesting to me howall of this kind of goes hand in hand.
(14:40):
Uh, You can see how these threadsconnect throughout modern media
and advertising landscape.
I'm sure the, the companies who areoffering all of this are really big
players in that market as far associal media and, and things as well.
I mean, can you just talkfor, touch on that part of it?
Because I'm sure that's driving alot of the cruise industry because of
(15:02):
that.
Helena Sawelin (15:03):
Yes, the social media definitely, uh, It's important,
um, uh, people is looking at thesocial media and look at beautiful
places and want to go there.
so that is a, let's say, the destinationis a little bit of wow factor,
actually, for those who can go there.
And that is the mid size andthe smaller, uh, cruise brands.
(15:25):
There are other cruise sizes thatis able to find these hidden gems.
but I also, at the same time, Ihave to say it is a demographic
shift with the generations.
You have the older generation thatis a little bit more family oriented.
They, they want to travelwith, with a family.
(15:46):
Uh, and yeah, you have the babyboomers and, and, and all that and
millenials, but you also see thepeople with a luxury that want to find.
They want to tick off what theyhave seen on the social media and
want to tick off, their boxes and,uh, and go to this special parts.
Uh, and they can also see the other handis the people that has been, let's say
(16:10):
on a cruise ship as a child, they wantto do the same thing with their children
because, uh, They, they know how funthey had on board on a cruise ship.
So they want to make sure thattheir own children will have the
same experience that they had.
So you, you can see it's this type ofdifferent type of passengers and they're
choosing little bit different typesof cruise ships, uh, because of that.
(16:35):
Uh, but the social mediaanyhow, for coming back to that
again, it is, it is important.
Definitely.
Evan Troxel (16:42):
mentioned these new sustainable greener cruise ships
and fuel and even, even locationsI think are basically only allowing
certain, like what you're talking
about those kinds of cruiseships to even get to them.
Along with the rise of ecotourism, right,there's a big desire for people to travel
and see these things, but do it in away that's eco friendly, to get there,
(17:04):
and leave a small carbon footprint to
do.
So I'm sure all of these thingsare kind of tied together as well,
but I would love to hear moreabout that trend in the industry.
and actually how it's working its wayinto the, space, spatial design and
the things that you're
working on.
with FF&E and layouts andall of those kinds of things.
Helena Sawelin (17:23):
sustainability definitely is reshaping the cruise industry
with all the air pollution taxesthat is coming, port free, navigation
limits, and it's a lot of thingsthat's happening, and we, we follow.
Of course, EU Commission's regulation.
What has been the biggest impactwhen it comes to, is the fuel,
(17:47):
the technical water systems.
And also the shore powerand many other things.
More technical related things has been.
And the speed, for not mention thatspeed and how the hull shape is.
So all that has been maybe the thingsthat the cruise industry had tried
to change the last years to make surethey can meet the goal until 2020.
(18:14):
2050, but first you have the 2030,the 55 package, as they call it.
By 55 percent, they have to reduce the
carbon.
So, technical wise, it hasbeen a lot of things ongoing.
When it comes from our part thatis working also with the interior
design, we work in both exteriorbut also interior part design.
(18:37):
We also try to, follow the R9strategies that that is To refuse,
basically, or rethink and reduce.
Refuse to work with suppliers thatdoesn't work with eco friendly
materials as much as possible.
work with those who hasthe right certification.
(18:58):
You could call it that instead,it sounds more positive.
Which is quite a lot today.
You can find a lot of good materialsthat is coming more and more.
So yes, definitely a lot of things ishappening when it comes to sustainability
and AO Commission is pushing thecruise industry to become greener.
Cormac Phalen (19:17):
if I can ask a little bit more on that, so obviously sustainability
is something that is important to yourcompany as, architectural projects, it's
kind of forefront for us and what we, tendto do is, when we can convince the client
to come along on the ride with us is itwill shape and guide all of our decisions.
(19:39):
For as you were saying, theproduct types and things like that.
I mean, do you find yourself,I think you said yes.
And so this is probably a littleredundant, but refusing to work
with, certain manufacturers who youmay have like this long history with
them, but you said, well, you'renot really conforming to the new
standards, we've got to move on.
But I mean, we tend tochange products all the time.
(20:03):
We're always looking and researchingnewer and newer products that help
us reduce our carbon footprint.
And, and I'm just kind of assuming orasking, do you basically do the same
thing where you're looking for additionalproducts to help inform your design when
you're, really focused on sustainability?
Helena Sawelin (20:22):
First of all, we have a good dialogue with the client.
We can see how the interest ofsustainability has come more and more.
And of course, in the first case,it's more the technical related
fuel, speed, hull shape, shorespower, technical water system.
All that is the most importantand had the highest impact.
(20:44):
So when it comes to interior design,it's different there, I would say.
So we have few clients that is.
They want to be green as much aspossible, all the way through.
But we also have clients, they say theywant to maybe The interior part maybe
is not to prioritize because they havedone everything else in the right order.
(21:07):
So, we have to follow the client,of course, and we have to make sure
that the design will be good andaccording to the client's need.
But we are trying to support themand suggest, what about, should we go
for, let's say, a carpet that is, um,as green as possible and we can give
(21:30):
them, let's say we have few brandsand qualities that we can say this
is a better alternative and that one.
So what about shouldwe go for that instead?
Because
we know that it's about 70, 000to 100, 000 square meter carpet on
board and it replace every fifth.
So it's a lot of impact.
(21:51):
So if you, let's say, go for a goodcarpet quality same with mattresses,
that is maybe 10, 000 mattresses onboard, if you go to crew and passengers.
So, If we can find one that has a takeback system or it's a green built,
green quality or whatever, I thinkthe client would say yes, why not?
(22:11):
It sounds good.
but we try to balance that dependingon who the client is, of course.
To say refuse is a too big word, I would
Cormac Phalen (22:21):
Right, right.
I
Helena Sawelin (22:23):
So, we would say we suggest and, yeah, take it from there.
Cormac Phalen (22:29):
Let me ask one more question on this.
so, you've done your initialdesign, your initial installation.
You've made that product selection.
And one of the things thatwe also talk about with our
clients are, we understandthat, 5, 10, 15 years down the
road, there's going to be arenovation, as part of that.
And so part of our dialoguewith them, especially when
(22:49):
it comes to sustainability is
making those choices forrecyclable materials, you know,
early
on.
Is that conversationsthat you all are having
as well?
Right,
Helena Sawelin (23:01):
for me a little bit my, I'm really working hard to find this,
let's say, stakeholders that is buyingwaste and sell it further to someone else.
So you can find this, let's say, circular.
And I'm a little bit I think I havefound a partner right now is in another
industry that might be able to lookinto some parts, not everything,
(23:26):
of course, because it is like abig city, what we have specified.
But what we also try to suggest forour clients, and they know it already,
is the high, long lasting qualities.
Go for a little bit higherquality to let them know.
to lose furnitures.
(23:46):
Um, so you can repair it and,uh, reupholster it much easier.
We know back legs will breakprobably after one year.
So let's order just new back legsinstead of a new entire chair.
So then you don't go for theraw material for a new chair.
And you have thousands of.
(24:08):
So that the modular thinking is whatwe are trying to advise the client.
And, yeah,
Evan Troxel (24:16):
I'm still trying to get my son from leaning back in
his chair at the dinner table.
Helena Sawelin (24:20):
Exactly.
You see?
Evan Troxel (24:23):
That's exactly right.
Cormac Phalen (24:24):
just going to echo that a little bit, Evan, is the fact that,
a lot of times our clients, and I,Helena, I can almost imagine that yours
is probably tenfold worse than ours, istrying to design around human nature.
You know, here you have,essentially a five by five.
8, 000 person floating city thatthen is, just cycling through
(24:47):
the people throughout the year.
And, just like when we're, designingdormitories for a university, we're
trying to design the, maintenance freekind of thing, which we know is, is not
something that exists, but somethingthat at least is friendly enough that,
you know, we have that kind of likelife cycle to be able to support that
modular, flexibility is, is interestingbecause of the, the concept that we know
(25:12):
we're going to have to fix something.
you know, what kind of investmentdo we want to make kind of thing?
Cause so often the, not, youknow, the situation that we've
gotten ourself
into, kind of globallyis, Oh, it's broken.
Let's throw it away and replace it.
And
Helena Sawelin (25:25):
Exactly.
It hurts.
It
Cormac Phalen (25:26):
It it
Helena Sawelin (25:28):
but yeah, so I'm really hope that, uh, that will be
this possibility because I know inthe hotel industry, they are, there
is a little bit of Let's say a trend.
There is some hotel brands that are makingthis, uh, uh, going for, uh, recycling.
Uh, they have buy, they buyold chairs and refurbish them
(25:51):
and they make a thing about it.
Uh, but the Cruise, maybeit's not really there yet.
Maybe one area here andthere, but not totally.
But as long as we can go for longlasting design, high quality, easier
to refurbish and modular design,I think we are in a big step.
(26:14):
If that will be possible, and it willbe possible, definitely, it will come.
Evan Troxel (26:18):
I love that.
I, have a question about, you mentionedkind of the living room extending with
through glass doors to an outdoor balcony.
That's not my experience on a cruise ship.
I get the inner cheap cabinwith no windows, right?
Um, and and there's tiersin cruise ships, right?
There's priced pricing tiers and there'salso experience tiers based on that.
(26:40):
And the way that I've alwaysviewed it, I mean just, yeah.
It's like, I'm, just sleeping in myroom, I'm gonna do everything else
outside of the room, but, I think whatyou're explaining is a very different
philosophy, like, people who go on thesemid size cruise ships, there's a lot
more, seclusion from your neighbors.
They want the experience,like a private experience.
And I'm, I'm curious if you couldexplain in more detail, just like what
(27:03):
these suites are like, and this blendingof indoor and outdoor and how that's
being accomplished, because I thinkwhat's also interesting, depending on
the location, you could spend a lot oftime outdoors, and you might want to
do that with just you and your partneror with you and your family, versus
the entire population of a cruise ship,you know, being out at the pool, for
(27:23):
example.
So maybe you can talk a little bitmore about, like, the intimate space
design of a suite that actually,like, what are the, what's going
on there from a design perspective?
Helena Sawelin (27:34):
When it comes, that is more the luxury segment.
The luxury segment whereyou have bigger, uh, suites.
Uh, two, three, four.
Two room suites, uh, you have roomservice, of course you can have it
otherwise as well, but they might go morefor the room service and eat in the room
and have, uh, enjoy the day basicallyon, on your balcony and all that.
(27:59):
That type of cruise is, of course,a little bit more expensive.
You, you are also having, uh, thedestination that is also important.
So, the design should cover allthe comfort that you need in,
in that, the big, the big suite.
Uh, if you compare it with the, let'ssay, the, the big, big, uh, The bigger,
(28:23):
the larger cruise ships, where theyhave quite smaller room, they want to
people spend their money basically on thepublic areas, because there is actually
where the cruise brands make the profit.
And those ship is maybenot costly to go on.
In the first case, it's more Sothey have a different, let's say,
(28:47):
focus on, or what you can call it,approach to who is the cruise type and
what you can do basically on board.
But, I would say also on the come tothe luxury segment, what we talked
about this indoor, outdoor areas,that is also to the, public rooms.
(29:08):
The public rooms could be likea living room where you can
also sit and have a nice view.
You can socialize with other people.
You still have good space enough thatyou can feel your, your own comfort.
Let's say corner.
Uh, but you also have this kind ofliving room outdoor, there you can
have this climate controls basically.
(29:30):
so, that type of cruise brandsor cruise ships, they are a
little bit more like hotel look.
where you have the barefoot luxury,what we call it, a little bit more.
Yeah,
Evan Troxel (29:42):
So, so in these outdoor spaces, can you talk about
the kinds of, the ways that you'remaking those comfortable for people?
Because it seems like you're goingto be, going to all kinds of remote
destinations and you've got differentenvironmental things to deal with.
So what, what kinds of thingsare you specifying to make
it comfortable for people?
Because I, I assume that it's a lot likethe hospitality industry, but, it has its
(30:05):
own set of kind of environmental factorsthat are going to make it different.
Helena Sawelin (30:08):
Yeah, I mean, many of this cruise ship is going both
to colder and warmer destinations.
They are spending time outdoor.
they definitely have theheaters to make it comfortable.
And today, when you havethis Automation technology.
Technology is a wow big trend
(30:30):
also.
And to not, let's say, make it moreefficient, it's also automated, what's
turns on, what is turning off and whenyou have people on the right place.
So let's say heaters is definitelyone thing that we should put in, uh,
in these outdoor spaces so peoplecan feel comfortable and sit outdoor.
(30:56):
And having a good time, let'ssay, um, also for the outdoor
dining, the same there.
Cormac Phalen (31:02):
one of the things that it sounds like, you know, as you're kind of
talking about these more luxury spaces areyou're kind of designing a familiarity.
something that like, okay, I'm usedto this in, this type of, amenities
and things that, for the hotelsthat I visit, I'd like to still
have that kind of similar feeling on
(31:23):
a cruise ship, but also stillhave that kind of connection to,
as you said earlier, connectionto the water, connection to the,
the places that you're visiting.
but also still feel, veryfamiliar and very comfortable with
kind of your new surroundings.
Is
Helena Sawelin (31:38):
hmm.
Yeah, definitely.
And when it comes to this luxury,I would say many of these luxury
segment is many times a cruise brand.
Hotel, resort, we are doingfor Four Seasons right now.
We did Ritz Carlton's, Evrima,the first yacht series they did.
(32:01):
So, of course, the hotel brands shouldhave and let's say you should feel
they're connected because you have thePassengers or the people that is going
to these hotels, they want to go tothis kind of hotel resort yacht as well.
So that you should feel connected and somesimilarities and the home away feeling.
(32:21):
No,
Cormac Phalen (32:26):
when you go onto the cruise ship.
So you don't have like when Evan hadthe, the windowless, internal cabin.
Evan Troxel (32:32):
That's just
Helena Sawelin (32:32):
no, no, should not go.
No, true.
It's important.
I mean, we definitely I mean, that is,of course, a challenge to make every
everyone should have the best spot,but definitely to have an understanding
of how to make the best design.
I mean, the ship is, of course, you havealways this kind of different kind of
(32:57):
corners that is more challenging, butyou have to work around it basically.
But yeah, it's important.
Evan Troxel (33:06):
I'm curious from an aesthetic point of view as designers of these
spaces when it, when it, you've gotindoor spaces, you've got outdoor spaces,
you've got private spaces, shared spaces.
Scandinavia is known for acertain design aesthetic.
And I'm just curious, becausemy experience was very, Las
Vegas like on the water with thecruise ships that I've been on.
(33:28):
and then I've seen, you know,the Viking cruise lines, and I've
seen some of these, these imagesthat you have on your website.
It's a very kind of different aesthetic.
And so when it comes to kind of trendsin the Aesthetics, but also functionality
and, and we think about social media andthe kinds of images people are sharing.
I'm just curious, from a maybearchitectural and interior design
(33:51):
trends, what you're seeing happen in,in the space that you're working in.
Helena Sawelin (33:56):
we, we try to also understand the client's need.
That, that is very important.
But What is very important forour, let's say, design we're doing,
it needs to have a functionality.
It needs to work.
It needs to be practical also in one way.
But aesthetics is super important and itmight be that our design is a little bit
(34:19):
this kind of Scandinavian touch to it.
It's quite clean, it's quite easy to read.
We want to use as naturalmaterials as possible.
Um, and the connection should be smart.
Uh, we also look into the technicaldevices that makes smart technology
(34:40):
coming in also, uh, in the functions,that makes it easy for the passengers.
It should just be, you shouldjust enjoy the life on board.
So, all that is.
An important part in the design tohave the aesthetics together with the
functionality and of course a little bitof twist somewhere that makes it a little
(35:01):
bit like a fun thing that is coming in.
Rememberable design somehow.
Cormac Phalen (35:08):
so, as Evan was kind of rattling off some of the, kind of
potentially design constraints, let's call
it.
how does your design aesthetics,sensibilities, pair up and marry
to, cause you started to mention,the client, we know that, a lot of
times you'd be beholden to kind of abranding, of those, but, how do you
(35:31):
work with your client to understandtheir branding, but then also, stay
true to your own kind of design ethos.
Yeah.
Helena Sawelin (35:39):
of relationship you build up with a client and
it's important to keep that.
Interview and learn theclient, who are they?
Who, what do what they want, whatare their challenges they have
had on board, uh, in the past?
What can we do with change to helpthem to make it a little bit better?
So we, we try to also look tothe history and learn from, well,
(36:02):
depending on what kind of cruiseor passengers they have on board.
Uh.
So, but it's definitely to listen in and,and understand clients need, uh, and to
get to know them as much as possible, butalso at the same time, we're doing the
different steps with mood boards, we'redoing, uh, conceptual boards, uh, and all
(36:23):
through the steps, you have to presentthe storytelling behind why we choose to
go this direction, why we suggest, well,whatever design we're doing, how important
is, you know, with that and that functionand, and, uh, sometimes the clients
like it a lot and say, wow, yeah, we'vethought everything we, we, we need it.
(36:43):
Uh, so it depends offthe client, of course.
And we have also clients that has a verygood knowledge about it by themselves
and they know exactly what they need.
Uh, so it is, uh, a give and takedefinitely, but, um, it, it's very,
Wonderful to work with clients whereyou have this kind of close relationship
(37:04):
and you, you build it up somehow.
Cormac Phalen (37:07):
Yeah, I agree.
Those are probably some of the morerewarding ones where you have that kind
of like symbiotic relationship where,you understand them, they understand you
and, and are willing to work with eachother to kind of really, excel the design
Helena Sawelin (37:21):
Mm
Cormac Phalen (37:22):
versus kind of, More, I hope you don't have any of these,
but, more confrontational type,atmospheres like, Nope, this is
exactly what I want.
You're
like, all right.
All right.
You know, kind
Helena Sawelin (37:32):
Oh, no.
Cormac Phalen (37:33):
situations.
Helena Sawelin (37:34):
Exactly, no, uh, it doesn't work like that, I
would say, and, uh, No, exactly.
It is super important to listento each other and build it up.
And also, since we're doing it indifferent steps, the client is, they can
see a little bit what's happening duringthe design process until the delivery.
But when we have, when they have agreedon, let's say the design, the visual
(37:59):
and all the story around it, then thehard work is to work with the yard
because they are sitting with the budgetand the cost and they might probably say,
this is too costly, this is not possible.
And then we have to doublecheck with the client.
Is it something we can, we can lowerthis, but we keep that, yeah, whatever.
And sometimes, yeah, it's, uh, itis, uh, you have to play around it.
Cormac Phalen (38:23):
so I have this question because obviously we deal with this a lot
in, in our industry, on the land base sideof the design, where, a lot of times we
will have, late, Late process changes.
you're,
because you're dealing with somuch on the engineering side, where
it is so strict to, it's got to fitthe design of the, this floating hotel.
(38:50):
How, do you, do youexperience changes like that?
Helena Sawelin (38:54):
Oh,
Cormac Phalen (38:54):
you know,
do you?
Helena Sawelin (38:56):
We,
Cormac Phalen (38:56):
was hoping no.
Helena Sawelin (38:59):
I mean, that is, we usually say never miss a deadline.
That is, we are working definitelytowards the goal to always keep
on track on, on, on the deadlinesthat it has been set by the yard.
But it happens that the client is.
This suddenly wants to change theconcept or new direction and something.
(39:22):
Uh, it is of course demanding and,uh, so definitely tough times.
It can be very tough times.
Uh, we just have to understandwhat is the purpose.
Uh, and of course then we tryto adapt according to, to that.
Cormac Phalen (39:39):
I was hoping some industry out there actually, might, you know,
hold to that.
Evan Troxel (39:47):
Well, I kind of have a final topic for us to wrap
up around, and that is amenityspaces and the kinds of amenities
that are going into cruise ships.
Again, my experience is very limitedin this, and I mentioned a few of
them that I have experienced before,but I'm curious what the trends are.
I mean, obviously it sounds likethere's a bigger trend towards outdoor
(40:08):
amenity spaces and things like that.
Um, maybe you can just talk through thekinds of things that you're seeing happen
on cruise ship design and in, in the latercruise ships that are coming out now.
Helena Sawelin (40:21):
Definitely the outdoor areas, as we spoke about earlier,
the living room feeling that has beenfor a while, the hotel feeling, but
I would say wellness, spa wellness,that trend with health and care has
been also very, very big for a while.
And we can see how that is growing.
But people doesn't justwant to have massage.
(40:42):
They want to have, youknow, body screening.
They want to have a real,Someone that is really can talk.
tell you what is your healthand what you need to do.
And it has to be a truth worth,uh, wording what they are, what
experienced people on board.
So the health and wellnessis big and people want to
(41:03):
stay active at the same time.
They want to be playpickleball or something.
So, and then we can see, yeah,I would say eco friendly.
People also want to have,yeah, the destination is also a
trend, of course, and someone towant to have digital detoxing.
(41:23):
They want to stay, you know, goingin your mind, yoga, but that is also
connected to their health and wellness.
but yeah, it is different types of, um, Ithink we touched on it earlier about the
age of the group who we are looking into.
because some is more entertainment driven,what we call the Millenniums, for example,
(41:47):
and they want to be more socializedand meet people all at the same time.
and then we have the more Familyoriented, uh, passengers, where that
is very important, uh, of course,but otherwise I would say technology,
eco friendly health and care.
If you just look at like, like trends,
Evan Troxel (42:10):
the trend line of growth of this industry,
can you maybe talk about that?
Because it sounds, you've mentionedit earlier, like this is, you, your
firm experienced a lot of growth from,I think you said 2015 to 2019, right?
It sounds like there was abig boom in the industry.
what's the current trend linein the industry right now?
Helena Sawelin (42:33):
obviously COVID, uh, make Everything stopped for a while.
Uh, and of course no one knew whatwill happen, what will happen now.
But today is the market uprunning a hundred percent.
We, the, the cruise from the, what weunderstand from the cruise, uh, brands,
(42:56):
they are telling us they are at the samenumbers of passengers as before COVID.
So definitely, and wecan see it's more than.
All the shipyards is fullybooked until 2035, I think, 2036.
So they're building new ships again, andmany are going bigger, uh, cruise brands,
(43:19):
and we can see, it's basically all ofthem, it's also mid size that is growing.
Uh, but definitely the cruise industryis growing a lot, and we can also
see how, This type of people thatwas used to be there as a kid, they
want to go with their family today.
So, it's still growing, thatwill come new passengers.
(43:42):
It has a very positive development,what do you call, the cruise industry.
They can see it's still growing about
10 percent every year.
Evan Troxel (43:53):
Okay, nice.
I wanted to kind of wrap up with thatbecause I think, you know, for our
audience, if you're interested inlearning more about this, there's room.
in the space, right?
Like this is a tangent, I think,career wise to quote unquote, you know,
building architecture, but still
very related, very applicable to the
(44:14):
education
of an architect to get involved in this.
And it sounds like it'ssuper interesting to me.
I think I think it sounds really cool.
So
thank you
so much for taking the
time to talk with us today and, and teachus about this industry and, The potential
for architecture and design and interiordesign and FF& E and all of the things
(44:36):
that are in the life of an architect,but applying it to the marine industry.
This has been veryeducational and interesting.
So thank you.
Helena Sawelin (44:44):
Thank you.
Very nice to meet you guys.
Thank you.
Welcome to the Archispeak podcast.
And today we are joined by Helena andyou tell me how, how do you pronounce
your name in the true Swedish Helena?
Nice.
Helena Sawelin (00:20):
Helena Sawelin is my, I pronounce it in Swedish, yes.
Cormac Phalen (00:23):
we wouldn't have gotten that.
Evan Troxel (00:24):
I would not have pronounced it correctly.
So thank you for, for taking that on.
And maybe
you can start off by telling us about yourstudio and the type of work that you do.
Helena Sawelin (00:34):
Oh yeah.
so, um,
Tillberg Design, it's an, uh,
Old company.
It's, uh, 60 year celebration we have.
and, um, we are working with a big, bigcruise ship and that is maybe we could
call what we have done from the beginning.
It has been with Robert Tillbergthat started it a long time ago.
(00:58):
During the years and we havefollowed the market, of course,
and the change that has happened.
it has been a little bit more.
Yacht like cruise ship, uh, the lastcouple of, let's say almost 10 years
have coming in, in a different way.
You could call it hotel yachts,uh, residential yachts, uh,
(01:20):
and also people wants to have aprivate, uh, apartment on board.
So we can see that change has alsocome the last couple of years.
So the, the industry has changed a littlebit, but cruise ship is what we have.
done exterior design, interiordesign, uh, master planning.
(01:42):
Uh, so we, we are very advanced whenit comes to, uh, the cruise ship
design, uh, and, and can actuallytailor, tailor made it for the client.
We also have the last couple of years,we have bought two companies, Talia
Marine, that is Naval Architect, andtogether with them, we are, Having
(02:03):
this, uh, competence in, in ourcompany today with, uh, engineering.
Uh, so that is very beneficial.
Evan Troxel (02:11):
So can you give us an idea of your background
? Helena Sawelin: So my background, I'm, uh, started as an FF&E designer 30 years back.
putting together the materials,working in the team, of course,
um, meeting the clients, wasparticipating in the yard meetings.
So, so all that has been, of course,uh, growing, uh, well, with, with all
(02:34):
that means as an FF&E designer, butit's main, mainly putting together,
uh, making it colorful, let's say, uh,the design, with, um, Everything from
carpets to furniture and all that.
And during the year, we were growing.
I had become a mentor, taking, let'ssay, educating our new employees,
(02:56):
uh, FF& E people that was coming in.
We were growing quite dramatic from 2000.
Let's say 13, 14, 15, up to 19,we were growing quite a lot.
So then I become a littlebit more mentoring also.
And then from 2018, I was morelooking into the business.
(03:19):
director.
Um, so today I'm a little bit morebusiness director having my clients
working close to them and also have ateam that I am working very close to
and make sure that we, we are followingthe guidelines from the clients.
Uh, and also lookinginto the sustainability.
Sustainability has become a verybig part of the design today.
(03:41):
so I'm, I'm looking intothe sustainability, uh, in
the cruise industry as well.
Cormac Phalen (03:47):
one of the things that I kind of noticed as
I was doing a little bit of researchon your company is you have a
lot of designers that come from avariety of different backgrounds,
architecture, interior design,
Helena Sawelin (03:58):
Yeah.
Cormac Phalen (03:59):
and how does, we've, we've had in the past a lot of discussion
with other people who followed nonlinear Kind of like design paths to
different aspects of design,whether it's, going into product
design or architecture, interiordesigners and things like that.
how does the background of say, an FF& Edesigner or, interior designer architect.
(04:23):
lead to, cruise shipand, um, yacht design.
I mean,
I could see a parallel,but it just seems like an
interesting kind of like pathway to get to
that, area.
And I'm just kind of curious,not saying that, maybe I should
send my resume, but you know,
Helena Sawelin (04:42):
all the people is educated, uh, Architects
or interior designers.
And of course, as I say, the,the, the education is for the land
based industry in the first case.
Uh, but.
You have to learn, uh, basically,uh, and you have the experience to,
(05:02):
well, you, you need to have experienceto be the marine interior designer.
There is not really an educationfor that, what I understand, so you
have to actually learning by doing.
So when we were growing dramatically,as I said, uh, Well, from, let's say,
around 2015 and onwards, we did whatwe call an ABC internal education.
(05:24):
So, everybody had this on board educationto learn what is marine industry, what is,
um, yeah, everything that is necessary.
We had a very good program, we cancall it, with our most experienced
people that were helping our newemployees, architects, to actually
(05:45):
understand the difference between aland based to a marine interior design.
Because there's so many,so many different things.
Requirements, uh, fire requirements,uh, uh, health and care and many other
things that we have to just understand.
Uh, and yeah, that is superimportant to, to have this.
Cormac Phalen (06:08):
do you feel like there was a hard learning curve between kind of like
land based design to marine based design?
Helena Sawelin (06:16):
Yes, somehow, well, when it comes to the regulation, uh,
we have Norska Veritas and, uh, well,yeah, it is a lot of, it is a big
difference actually, but, uh, we havealways had, uh, Experienced people in
the company and they have stayed herefor more than 30 years, many of them.
(06:39):
So we always have this group of peoplethat has a possibility to learn.
And of course, when you have learnedand it's, yeah, like bicycling almost,
Evan Troxel (06:50):
Nice.
Cormac Phalen (06:50):
Yeah.
Helena Sawelin (06:51):
but anyway, it's, um, it has a certain regulations.
And of course they are, Also, somenew regulation is happening sometimes,
so you have to learn them as well.
But we know what source to go andlook for, and the YARD is always
also, um, up to date, of course.
So it's, it's an, let's say,changing experience and education
(07:14):
between the YARD and us.
So, yeah, it's
Evan Troxel (07:20):
Cormac, have you ever been on a cruise ship before?
Helena Sawelin (07:22):
um, um,
Cormac Phalen (07:24):
to the scale of some of the things that, uh,
that their company does.
I was looking at a lot of their projecttypes and I'm like, wow, I'm missing out.
Evan Troxel (07:35):
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's different.
And I think that's what's so attractive
about it, right?
It's very different.
But, but at the sametime, it's about space.
It's about, it's
about creating experiences,
but also like in the self contained thingthat's, it's like a city on water to
some extent,
right?
Where it has to be fully selfsufficient, fully functional, and
(07:57):
can only really rely upon itself.
and I think that's what'sso interesting about, it.
About it as a category that's differentfrom the normal architectural projects.
But also, I'm curious, Helena,what, what has changed?
because I mean, obviously there's maybemore of a luxury aspect to it now.
It's gotten a lot higher design andalso you mentioned sustainability, but
(08:21):
What else have you noticed has, hasreally changed because I would say like
the cruise ships that I've been on,the first one was when I was 12 years
old, and then during my honeymoon, mywife and I went on an Alaskan cruise.
And I
mean, I would very much say that the U.
S.
cruise lines that we were on,which are not the luxury high end
things, are like a casino on thewater, for the most part, right?
(08:43):
Like, it's
very it feels very Vegas, where it's like,it's really trying to be eye candy, it's,
it's focused on a few, Programmaticpieces, like, you know, there,
there's obviously a lot of sellinggoing on, on these kinds of cruise
ships where they're trying to get youto buy their jewelry and their art, and
there's the casino and then there'sthe, the, the spa experiences
(09:05):
and things like that.
So
I'm curious what you've seen shift overthe years as you've gotten more and more
into, into the, the world that you're in.
Helena Sawelin (09:14):
Yeah, I mean, first of all, today you can divide it in the large
cruise ship, mid size, and then the small.
And it's about one third of each,if you look into how many cruise
ships there are out there today.
So, of course, the largest cruiseship, I mean, first of all, the
(09:35):
cruise ship has grown in size,
uh, extremely.
Evan Troxel (09:40):
my son is an aficionado and
Helena Sawelin (09:42):
yeah.
Evan Troxel (09:42):
because he, all the way back to the Titanic, I mean, he was, he
studies the Titanic and
he talked about, you know, a coupleof years about, about the ICON OF THE
SEAS, which is this mega, mega, mega,
insanely huge cruise ship.
Helena Sawelin (09:57):
Yeah,
it is.
So, I mean, today we can see thissuper, super large cruise ship for
more than 5, 000 passengers and well.
It's even more.
It's 8, 000 to some of them.
But anyway, it's, um, It's like a city,as you say, and there you, that is
(10:20):
for one type of passengers that wantto be spending, have full activity.
Uh, so still that trend isongoing, but it is one type of
passengers that enjoy that most.
And then we can see the midsize hasbecome, It has always been that.
(10:40):
I think it was more the mid sizecruise ship, well, and smaller in
the beginning, of course, when thecruise industry started 60 years back.
But, um, I would say mid sizeis coming back a little bit.
People enjoy, um, that size whenyou have connection to the ocean
a little bit more and you feel youare actually on board somewhere.
(11:03):
Um, But what we definitely can see isthe luxury segment has been growing.
When I started 30 years back, it waslike an, uh, you made almost like a
coulisse it was extremely, colorfuland it was you could feel it was
a big difference to go on a cruiseship compared to go to a hotel.
(11:23):
I could
see the trend has become thedesign is a little bit more like
a hotel like trend on board today.
to the midsize and the luxury segment.
And we can also see how the indooroutdoor areas is connected to each other.
You have this big window,sliding open doors.
(11:43):
You have almost like a livingroom on the outdoor areas.
Um, so it's connected, indoor outdoors,more connected as a living room.
So that trend has become quite a lotof people want to, To have this luxury,
let's say, barefoot luxury, as we callit, where you can just have a layback
(12:04):
style, sophisticated layback style.
Cormac Phalen (12:07):
So, how do you Because it's kind of interesting people go
on a cruise because they want tohave that connection to the water,
the ocean and things like that.
But, as the trend starts to shift a littlebit more towards, feeling like you're on
a hotel, now you're on a floating hotel.
How do you still maintain kind ofthat magic or that essence of being
on the water, but then also providingthose high luxuries of, say the five
(12:31):
star hotel and things like that?
Helena Sawelin (12:33):
well, you can see when it comes to the luxury, it's also about
the number of crew, you could say, almosthow, the attention from the crew and you
can give, let's say the drink is coming
directly when they're ordering it.
Uh, and people also wants totravel a little bit more seamless.
Everything is prepared.
You almost have this red carpet when youwalking wherever and everything is very
(12:57):
smoothly transitioned to, to all parts.
So I would say that is also Oneimportant thing when it comes to
the luxury segments, especially.
so I think the cruise, the differentsize of cruises is a little bit
different kind of directions.
When it's a bigger cruise ship,they're going out to their own islands.
(13:18):
Usually they have an own island,
the cruise ship.
So they go out there and spend afew days or one day or whatever and
they can go back again to a port.
But when you have this midsize, uh, Youalso have another kind of fuel, especially
to the sustainability today, you maybehave a hybrid fuel, so you can stay to
these hidden gems a little bit more.
(13:40):
People want to find these hidden gems alittle bit more than they was in the past.
They want to tell their friends backhome that, wow, have you seen this?
This is something new,you have never been there.
And today with this sustainable,That is coming a little bit more
and more with another, uh, let'ssay green methanol or whatever.
They have a green fuel system.
(14:02):
They are able to stay toanother destination a little bit
longer, maybe two days instead.
And that is something new that is coming.
Cormac Phalen (14:12):
right.
Evan Troxel (14:16):
don't know.
It's kind of bragging rights, I guess,where people want to talk about these
really exquisite and exclusive places thatthey've been that they can only access.
but also social media has reallyplayed a big role in this, and that's
where a lot of people are gettingexposed to the idea of these things.
So, I mean, it's interesting to me howall of this kind of goes hand in hand.
(14:40):
Uh, You can see how these threadsconnect throughout modern media
and advertising landscape.
I'm sure the, the companies who areoffering all of this are really big
players in that market as far associal media and, and things as well.
I mean, can you just talkfor, touch on that part of it?
Because I'm sure that's driving alot of the cruise industry because of
(15:02):
that.
Helena Sawelin (15:03):
Yes, the social media definitely, uh, It's important,
um, uh, people is looking at thesocial media and look at beautiful
places and want to go there.
so that is a, let's say, the destinationis a little bit of wow factor,
actually, for those who can go there.
And that is the mid size andthe smaller, uh, cruise brands.
(15:25):
There are other cruise sizes thatis able to find these hidden gems.
but I also, at the same time, Ihave to say it is a demographic
shift with the generations.
You have the older generation thatis a little bit more family oriented.
They, they want to travelwith, with a family.
(15:46):
Uh, and yeah, you have the babyboomers and, and, and all that and
millenials, but you also see thepeople with a luxury that want to find.
They want to tick off what theyhave seen on the social media and
want to tick off, their boxes and,uh, and go to this special parts.
Uh, and they can also see the other handis the people that has been, let's say
(16:10):
on a cruise ship as a child, they wantto do the same thing with their children
because, uh, They, they know how funthey had on board on a cruise ship.
So they want to make sure thattheir own children will have the
same experience that they had.
So you, you can see it's this type ofdifferent type of passengers and they're
choosing little bit different typesof cruise ships, uh, because of that.
(16:35):
Uh, but the social mediaanyhow, for coming back to that
again, it is, it is important.
Definitely.
Evan Troxel (16:42):
mentioned these new sustainable greener cruise ships
and fuel and even, even locationsI think are basically only allowing
certain, like what you're talking
about those kinds of cruiseships to even get to them.
Along with the rise of ecotourism, right,there's a big desire for people to travel
and see these things, but do it in away that's eco friendly, to get there,
(17:04):
and leave a small carbon footprint to
do.
So I'm sure all of these thingsare kind of tied together as well,
but I would love to hear moreabout that trend in the industry.
and actually how it's working its wayinto the, space, spatial design and
the things that you're
working on.
with FF&E and layouts andall of those kinds of things.
Helena Sawelin (17:23):
sustainability definitely is reshaping the cruise industry
with all the air pollution taxesthat is coming, port free, navigation
limits, and it's a lot of thingsthat's happening, and we, we follow.
Of course, EU Commission's regulation.
What has been the biggest impactwhen it comes to, is the fuel,
(17:47):
the technical water systems.
And also the shore powerand many other things.
More technical related things has been.
And the speed, for not mention thatspeed and how the hull shape is.
So all that has been maybe the thingsthat the cruise industry had tried
to change the last years to make surethey can meet the goal until 2020.
(18:14):
2050, but first you have the 2030,the 55 package, as they call it.
By 55 percent, they have to reduce the
carbon.
So, technical wise, it hasbeen a lot of things ongoing.
When it comes from our part thatis working also with the interior
design, we work in both exteriorbut also interior part design.
(18:37):
We also try to, follow the R9strategies that that is To refuse,
basically, or rethink and reduce.
Refuse to work with suppliers thatdoesn't work with eco friendly
materials as much as possible.
work with those who hasthe right certification.
(18:58):
You could call it that instead,it sounds more positive.
Which is quite a lot today.
You can find a lot of good materialsthat is coming more and more.
So yes, definitely a lot of things ishappening when it comes to sustainability
and AO Commission is pushing thecruise industry to become greener.
Cormac Phalen (19:17):
if I can ask a little bit more on that, so obviously sustainability
is something that is important to yourcompany as, architectural projects, it's
kind of forefront for us and what we, tendto do is, when we can convince the client
to come along on the ride with us is itwill shape and guide all of our decisions.
(19:39):
For as you were saying, theproduct types and things like that.
I mean, do you find yourself,I think you said yes.
And so this is probably a littleredundant, but refusing to work
with, certain manufacturers who youmay have like this long history with
them, but you said, well, you'renot really conforming to the new
standards, we've got to move on.
But I mean, we tend tochange products all the time.
(20:03):
We're always looking and researchingnewer and newer products that help
us reduce our carbon footprint.
And, and I'm just kind of assuming orasking, do you basically do the same
thing where you're looking for additionalproducts to help inform your design when
you're, really focused on sustainability?
Helena Sawelin (20:22):
First of all, we have a good dialogue with the client.
We can see how the interest ofsustainability has come more and more.
And of course, in the first case,it's more the technical related
fuel, speed, hull shape, shorespower, technical water system.
All that is the most importantand had the highest impact.
(20:44):
So when it comes to interior design,it's different there, I would say.
So we have few clients that is.
They want to be green as much aspossible, all the way through.
But we also have clients, they say theywant to maybe The interior part maybe
is not to prioritize because they havedone everything else in the right order.
(21:07):
So, we have to follow the client,of course, and we have to make sure
that the design will be good andaccording to the client's need.
But we are trying to support themand suggest, what about, should we go
for, let's say, a carpet that is, um,as green as possible and we can give
(21:30):
them, let's say we have few brandsand qualities that we can say this
is a better alternative and that one.
So what about shouldwe go for that instead?
Because
we know that it's about 70, 000to 100, 000 square meter carpet on
board and it replace every fifth.
So it's a lot of impact.
(21:51):
So if you, let's say, go for a goodcarpet quality same with mattresses,
that is maybe 10, 000 mattresses onboard, if you go to crew and passengers.
So, If we can find one that has a takeback system or it's a green built,
green quality or whatever, I thinkthe client would say yes, why not?
(22:11):
It sounds good.
but we try to balance that dependingon who the client is, of course.
To say refuse is a too big word, I would
Cormac Phalen (22:21):
Right, right.
I
Helena Sawelin (22:23):
So, we would say we suggest and, yeah, take it from there.
Cormac Phalen (22:29):
Let me ask one more question on this.
so, you've done your initialdesign, your initial installation.
You've made that product selection.
And one of the things thatwe also talk about with our
clients are, we understandthat, 5, 10, 15 years down the
road, there's going to be arenovation, as part of that.
And so part of our dialoguewith them, especially when
(22:49):
it comes to sustainability is
making those choices forrecyclable materials, you know,
early
on.
Is that conversationsthat you all are having
as well?
Right,
Helena Sawelin (23:01):
for me a little bit my, I'm really working hard to find this,
let's say, stakeholders that is buyingwaste and sell it further to someone else.
So you can find this, let's say, circular.
And I'm a little bit I think I havefound a partner right now is in another
industry that might be able to lookinto some parts, not everything,
(23:26):
of course, because it is like abig city, what we have specified.
But what we also try to suggest forour clients, and they know it already,
is the high, long lasting qualities.
Go for a little bit higherquality to let them know.
to lose furnitures.
(23:46):
Um, so you can repair it and,uh, reupholster it much easier.
We know back legs will breakprobably after one year.
So let's order just new back legsinstead of a new entire chair.
So then you don't go for theraw material for a new chair.
And you have thousands of.
(24:08):
So that the modular thinking is whatwe are trying to advise the client.
And, yeah,
Evan Troxel (24:16):
I'm still trying to get my son from leaning back in
his chair at the dinner table.
Helena Sawelin (24:20):
Exactly.
You see?
Evan Troxel (24:23):
That's exactly right.
Cormac Phalen (24:24):
just going to echo that a little bit, Evan, is the fact that,
a lot of times our clients, and I,Helena, I can almost imagine that yours
is probably tenfold worse than ours, istrying to design around human nature.
You know, here you have,essentially a five by five.
8, 000 person floating city thatthen is, just cycling through
(24:47):
the people throughout the year.
And, just like when we're, designingdormitories for a university, we're
trying to design the, maintenance freekind of thing, which we know is, is not
something that exists, but somethingthat at least is friendly enough that,
you know, we have that kind of likelife cycle to be able to support that
modular, flexibility is, is interestingbecause of the, the concept that we know
(25:12):
we're going to have to fix something.
you know, what kind of investmentdo we want to make kind of thing?
Cause so often the, not, youknow, the situation that we've
gotten ourself
into, kind of globallyis, Oh, it's broken.
Let's throw it away and replace it.
And
Helena Sawelin (25:25):
Exactly.
It hurts.
It
Cormac Phalen (25:26):
It it
Helena Sawelin (25:28):
but yeah, so I'm really hope that, uh, that will be
this possibility because I know inthe hotel industry, they are, there
is a little bit of Let's say a trend.
There is some hotel brands that are makingthis, uh, uh, going for, uh, recycling.
Uh, they have buy, they buyold chairs and refurbish them
(25:51):
and they make a thing about it.
Uh, but the Cruise, maybeit's not really there yet.
Maybe one area here andthere, but not totally.
But as long as we can go for longlasting design, high quality, easier
to refurbish and modular design,I think we are in a big step.
(26:14):
If that will be possible, and it willbe possible, definitely, it will come.
Evan Troxel (26:18):
I love that.
I, have a question about, you mentionedkind of the living room extending with
through glass doors to an outdoor balcony.
That's not my experience on a cruise ship.
I get the inner cheap cabinwith no windows, right?
Um, and and there's tiersin cruise ships, right?
There's priced pricing tiers and there'salso experience tiers based on that.
(26:40):
And the way that I've alwaysviewed it, I mean just, yeah.
It's like, I'm, just sleeping in myroom, I'm gonna do everything else
outside of the room, but, I think whatyou're explaining is a very different
philosophy, like, people who go on thesemid size cruise ships, there's a lot
more, seclusion from your neighbors.
They want the experience,like a private experience.
And I'm, I'm curious if you couldexplain in more detail, just like what
(27:03):
these suites are like, and this blendingof indoor and outdoor and how that's
being accomplished, because I thinkwhat's also interesting, depending on
the location, you could spend a lot oftime outdoors, and you might want to
do that with just you and your partneror with you and your family, versus
the entire population of a cruise ship,you know, being out at the pool, for
(27:23):
example.
So maybe you can talk a little bitmore about, like, the intimate space
design of a suite that actually,like, what are the, what's going
on there from a design perspective?
Helena Sawelin (27:34):
When it comes, that is more the luxury segment.
The luxury segment whereyou have bigger, uh, suites.
Uh, two, three, four.
Two room suites, uh, you have roomservice, of course you can have it
otherwise as well, but they might go morefor the room service and eat in the room
and have, uh, enjoy the day basicallyon, on your balcony and all that.
(27:59):
That type of cruise is, of course,a little bit more expensive.
You, you are also having, uh, thedestination that is also important.
So, the design should cover allthe comfort that you need in,
in that, the big, the big suite.
Uh, if you compare it with the, let'ssay, the, the big, big, uh, The bigger,
(28:23):
the larger cruise ships, where theyhave quite smaller room, they want to
people spend their money basically on thepublic areas, because there is actually
where the cruise brands make the profit.
And those ship is maybenot costly to go on.
In the first case, it's more Sothey have a different, let's say,
(28:47):
focus on, or what you can call it,approach to who is the cruise type and
what you can do basically on board.
But, I would say also on the come tothe luxury segment, what we talked
about this indoor, outdoor areas,that is also to the, public rooms.
(29:08):
The public rooms could be likea living room where you can
also sit and have a nice view.
You can socialize with other people.
You still have good space enough thatyou can feel your, your own comfort.
Let's say corner.
Uh, but you also have this kind ofliving room outdoor, there you can
have this climate controls basically.
(29:30):
so, that type of cruise brandsor cruise ships, they are a
little bit more like hotel look.
where you have the barefoot luxury,what we call it, a little bit more.
Yeah,
Evan Troxel (29:42):
So, so in these outdoor spaces, can you talk about
the kinds of, the ways that you'remaking those comfortable for people?
Because it seems like you're goingto be, going to all kinds of remote
destinations and you've got differentenvironmental things to deal with.
So what, what kinds of thingsare you specifying to make
it comfortable for people?
Because I, I assume that it's a lot likethe hospitality industry, but, it has its
(30:05):
own set of kind of environmental factorsthat are going to make it different.
Helena Sawelin (30:08):
Yeah, I mean, many of this cruise ship is going both
to colder and warmer destinations.
They are spending time outdoor.
they definitely have theheaters to make it comfortable.
And today, when you havethis Automation technology.
Technology is a wow big trend
(30:30):
also.
And to not, let's say, make it moreefficient, it's also automated, what's
turns on, what is turning off and whenyou have people on the right place.
So let's say heaters is definitelyone thing that we should put in, uh,
in these outdoor spaces so peoplecan feel comfortable and sit outdoor.
(30:56):
And having a good time, let'ssay, um, also for the outdoor
dining, the same there.
Cormac Phalen (31:02):
one of the things that it sounds like, you know, as you're kind of
talking about these more luxury spaces areyou're kind of designing a familiarity.
something that like, okay, I'm usedto this in, this type of, amenities
and things that, for the hotelsthat I visit, I'd like to still
have that kind of similar feeling on
(31:23):
a cruise ship, but also stillhave that kind of connection to,
as you said earlier, connectionto the water, connection to the,
the places that you're visiting.
but also still feel, veryfamiliar and very comfortable with
kind of your new surroundings.
Is
Helena Sawelin (31:38):
hmm.
Yeah, definitely.
And when it comes to this luxury,I would say many of these luxury
segment is many times a cruise brand.
Hotel, resort, we are doingfor Four Seasons right now.
We did Ritz Carlton's, Evrima,the first yacht series they did.
(32:01):
So, of course, the hotel brands shouldhave and let's say you should feel
they're connected because you have thePassengers or the people that is going
to these hotels, they want to go tothis kind of hotel resort yacht as well.
So that you should feel connected and somesimilarities and the home away feeling.
(32:21):
No,
Cormac Phalen (32:26):
when you go onto the cruise ship.
So you don't have like when Evan hadthe, the windowless, internal cabin.
Evan Troxel (32:32):
That's just
Helena Sawelin (32:32):
no, no, should not go.
No, true.
It's important.
I mean, we definitely I mean, that is,of course, a challenge to make every
everyone should have the best spot,but definitely to have an understanding
of how to make the best design.
I mean, the ship is, of course, you havealways this kind of different kind of
(32:57):
corners that is more challenging, butyou have to work around it basically.
But yeah, it's important.
Evan Troxel (33:06):
I'm curious from an aesthetic point of view as designers of these
spaces when it, when it, you've gotindoor spaces, you've got outdoor spaces,
you've got private spaces, shared spaces.
Scandinavia is known for acertain design aesthetic.
And I'm just curious, becausemy experience was very, Las
Vegas like on the water with thecruise ships that I've been on.
(33:28):
and then I've seen, you know,the Viking cruise lines, and I've
seen some of these, these imagesthat you have on your website.
It's a very kind of different aesthetic.
And so when it comes to kind of trendsin the Aesthetics, but also functionality
and, and we think about social media andthe kinds of images people are sharing.
I'm just curious, from a maybearchitectural and interior design
(33:51):
trends, what you're seeing happen in,in the space that you're working in.
Helena Sawelin (33:56):
we, we try to also understand the client's need.
That, that is very important.
But What is very important forour, let's say, design we're doing,
it needs to have a functionality.
It needs to work.
It needs to be practical also in one way.
But aesthetics is super important and itmight be that our design is a little bit
(34:19):
this kind of Scandinavian touch to it.
It's quite clean, it's quite easy to read.
We want to use as naturalmaterials as possible.
Um, and the connection should be smart.
Uh, we also look into the technicaldevices that makes smart technology
(34:40):
coming in also, uh, in the functions,that makes it easy for the passengers.
It should just be, you shouldjust enjoy the life on board.
So, all that is.
An important part in the design tohave the aesthetics together with the
functionality and of course a little bitof twist somewhere that makes it a little
(35:01):
bit like a fun thing that is coming in.
Rememberable design somehow.
Cormac Phalen (35:08):
so, as Evan was kind of rattling off some of the, kind of
potentially design constraints, let's call
it.
how does your design aesthetics,sensibilities, pair up and marry
to, cause you started to mention,the client, we know that, a lot of
times you'd be beholden to kind of abranding, of those, but, how do you
(35:31):
work with your client to understandtheir branding, but then also, stay
true to your own kind of design ethos.
Yeah.
Helena Sawelin (35:39):
of relationship you build up with a client and
it's important to keep that.
Interview and learn theclient, who are they?
Who, what do what they want, whatare their challenges they have
had on board, uh, in the past?
What can we do with change to helpthem to make it a little bit better?
So we, we try to also look tothe history and learn from, well,
(36:02):
depending on what kind of cruiseor passengers they have on board.
Uh.
So, but it's definitely to listen in and,and understand clients need, uh, and to
get to know them as much as possible, butalso at the same time, we're doing the
different steps with mood boards, we'redoing, uh, conceptual boards, uh, and all
(36:23):
through the steps, you have to presentthe storytelling behind why we choose to
go this direction, why we suggest, well,whatever design we're doing, how important
is, you know, with that and that functionand, and, uh, sometimes the clients
like it a lot and say, wow, yeah, we'vethought everything we, we, we need it.
(36:43):
Uh, so it depends offthe client, of course.
And we have also clients that has a verygood knowledge about it by themselves
and they know exactly what they need.
Uh, so it is, uh, a give and takedefinitely, but, um, it, it's very,
Wonderful to work with clients whereyou have this kind of close relationship
(37:04):
and you, you build it up somehow.
Cormac Phalen (37:07):
Yeah, I agree.
Those are probably some of the morerewarding ones where you have that kind
of like symbiotic relationship where,you understand them, they understand you
and, and are willing to work with eachother to kind of really, excel the design
Helena Sawelin (37:21):
Mm
Cormac Phalen (37:22):
versus kind of, More, I hope you don't have any of these,
but, more confrontational type,atmospheres like, Nope, this is
exactly what I want.
You're
like, all right.
All right.
You know, kind
Helena Sawelin (37:32):
Oh, no.
Cormac Phalen (37:33):
situations.
Helena Sawelin (37:34):
Exactly, no, uh, it doesn't work like that, I
would say, and, uh, No, exactly.
It is super important to listento each other and build it up.
And also, since we're doing it indifferent steps, the client is, they can
see a little bit what's happening duringthe design process until the delivery.
But when we have, when they have agreedon, let's say the design, the visual
(37:59):
and all the story around it, then thehard work is to work with the yard
because they are sitting with the budgetand the cost and they might probably say,
this is too costly, this is not possible.
And then we have to doublecheck with the client.
Is it something we can, we can lowerthis, but we keep that, yeah, whatever.
And sometimes, yeah, it's, uh, itis, uh, you have to play around it.
Cormac Phalen (38:23):
so I have this question because obviously we deal with this a lot
in, in our industry, on the land base sideof the design, where, a lot of times we
will have, late, Late process changes.
you're,
because you're dealing with somuch on the engineering side, where
it is so strict to, it's got to fitthe design of the, this floating hotel.
(38:50):
How, do you, do youexperience changes like that?
Helena Sawelin (38:54):
Oh,
Cormac Phalen (38:54):
you know,
do you?
Helena Sawelin (38:56):
We,
Cormac Phalen (38:56):
was hoping no.
Helena Sawelin (38:59):
I mean, that is, we usually say never miss a deadline.
That is, we are working definitelytowards the goal to always keep
on track on, on, on the deadlinesthat it has been set by the yard.
But it happens that the client is.
This suddenly wants to change theconcept or new direction and something.
(39:22):
Uh, it is of course demanding and,uh, so definitely tough times.
It can be very tough times.
Uh, we just have to understandwhat is the purpose.
Uh, and of course then we tryto adapt according to, to that.
Cormac Phalen (39:39):
I was hoping some industry out there actually, might, you know,
hold to that.
Evan Troxel (39:47):
Well, I kind of have a final topic for us to wrap
up around, and that is amenityspaces and the kinds of amenities
that are going into cruise ships.
Again, my experience is very limitedin this, and I mentioned a few of
them that I have experienced before,but I'm curious what the trends are.
I mean, obviously it sounds likethere's a bigger trend towards outdoor
(40:08):
amenity spaces and things like that.
Um, maybe you can just talk through thekinds of things that you're seeing happen
on cruise ship design and in, in the latercruise ships that are coming out now.
Helena Sawelin (40:21):
Definitely the outdoor areas, as we spoke about earlier,
the living room feeling that has beenfor a while, the hotel feeling, but
I would say wellness, spa wellness,that trend with health and care has
been also very, very big for a while.
And we can see how that is growing.
But people doesn't justwant to have massage.
(40:42):
They want to have, youknow, body screening.
They want to have a real,Someone that is really can talk.
tell you what is your healthand what you need to do.
And it has to be a truth worth,uh, wording what they are, what
experienced people on board.
So the health and wellnessis big and people want to
(41:03):
stay active at the same time.
They want to be playpickleball or something.
So, and then we can see, yeah,I would say eco friendly.
People also want to have,yeah, the destination is also a
trend, of course, and someone towant to have digital detoxing.
(41:23):
They want to stay, you know, goingin your mind, yoga, but that is also
connected to their health and wellness.
but yeah, it is different types of, um, Ithink we touched on it earlier about the
age of the group who we are looking into.
because some is more entertainment driven,what we call the Millenniums, for example,
(41:47):
and they want to be more socializedand meet people all at the same time.
and then we have the more Familyoriented, uh, passengers, where that
is very important, uh, of course,but otherwise I would say technology,
eco friendly health and care.
If you just look at like, like trends,
Evan Troxel (42:10):
the trend line of growth of this industry,
can you maybe talk about that?
Because it sounds, you've mentionedit earlier, like this is, you, your
firm experienced a lot of growth from,I think you said 2015 to 2019, right?
It sounds like there was abig boom in the industry.
what's the current trend linein the industry right now?
Helena Sawelin (42:33):
obviously COVID, uh, make Everything stopped for a while.
Uh, and of course no one knew whatwill happen, what will happen now.
But today is the market uprunning a hundred percent.
We, the, the cruise from the, what weunderstand from the cruise, uh, brands,
(42:56):
they are telling us they are at the samenumbers of passengers as before COVID.
So definitely, and wecan see it's more than.
All the shipyards is fullybooked until 2035, I think, 2036.
So they're building new ships again, andmany are going bigger, uh, cruise brands,
(43:19):
and we can see, it's basically all ofthem, it's also mid size that is growing.
Uh, but definitely the cruise industryis growing a lot, and we can also
see how, This type of people thatwas used to be there as a kid, they
want to go with their family today.
So, it's still growing, thatwill come new passengers.
(43:42):
It has a very positive development,what do you call, the cruise industry.
They can see it's still growing about
10 percent every year.
Evan Troxel (43:53):
Okay, nice.
I wanted to kind of wrap up with thatbecause I think, you know, for our
audience, if you're interested inlearning more about this, there's room.
in the space, right?
Like this is a tangent, I think,career wise to quote unquote, you know,
building architecture, but still
very related, very applicable to the
(44:14):
education
of an architect to get involved in this.
And it sounds like it'ssuper interesting to me.
I think I think it sounds really cool.
So
thank you
so much for taking the
time to talk with us today and, and teachus about this industry and, The potential
for architecture and design and interiordesign and FF& E and all of the things
(44:36):
that are in the life of an architect,but applying it to the marine industry.
This has been veryeducational and interesting.
So thank you.
Helena Sawelin (44:44):
Thank you.
Very nice to meet you guys.
Thank you.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.