#366 - Why Architects MUST Question Everything to Create Memorable Spaces - Archispeak

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cormac Phalen (00:08):
so I started to, you can see this here.
I started to,

Evan Troxel (00:14):
Are you branching out?

yeah.
Using a purple felt tip pen.

Ooh.

I've been sketching a lot with it, with the old purple,

what does it feel like to sketch with a, a purple pen?

you know, I've been taking notes with it.
I've been drawn with itand it's kind of fun.

Yeah.
Yeah.

I

I, I had a little color, a little spice.

Exactly.
I was, uh, just sketching awayand things and stuff and just.

you.

Uh, I think little,

What scale is that drawing

uh, actually because I was doing it on my grid paper,
I mean, I did draw it to a scale.
I just haven't applied that scale yet.

you?

If, if that makes it,

is too scale,

is to a scale.
Yes.

don't know what scale.

I dunno what scale it is yet.

was just talking about this with somebody and it was
like, the magic of sketching from a

Oh yeah.

watching an architect, I think it's a

Yeah,

superpower, right?
And, um, and, and to be able to,like the, the person I was talking
to said, 'cause I was like, itdoesn't even matter what scale.
Like you, you sketch with a thick

yeah,

because you don't know.
Where

yeah.

yet.
Right.
And so like, I like a sign pen.
I like Really?
Yeah.
Here's one right,

Oh yeah, yeah.

It still has the.
Label on it from when itwas in the store even.
Um,

Let's end this door.

pens are great because like, like it could be literally
the thickness of a wall or a

Yep.
Yep.

sign pens.
Um,

Love the sign pen.

know, the, the further you go along, you might, you might graduate
to a thinner pen or whatever, but, butbecause it's about concepts and it's
about ideas and about all those things.
You got, got a few penson your desk there.

I've got just a few here.
What size and scale would youYeah, and that's just the ones
that ilea this cleaned up off ofmy desk to get them from rolling.

whittled down.
These are just the ones you use.
Right.

These are just the ones that I have in, in hand or like cleaned
out of my bag or something like that.

at, at my pen holder.
I, I gotta grab it now.

Yeah, you you have to.

So mine's got a, a mixed, I have a, a rhombus shape.
I dunno, what, what is this?
It's like two

Oh, nice.

back to

I,

and I've got,

okay.

I got all kinds of stuff.
Oh, here, here you go.
I got a little Lego mandalorian on mine.
I don't know if youhave one of these, but.

Um, I,

little l

I don't have a Lego mandalorian.
I have a Lego doth

is,

that's Boba Fett.
Like, that's the, it'snot like some rando.
It's me.
It's not.
No Rando.
Mando.

I, I'm, I'm jiggling it here for the, uh, the audio listeners.
Oh, and I even, I have a, uh, isa, this is a great tool right here.
The Alpha branded, um, you know, knife.

Oh yeah, yeah.

the snap off.
With the snap off

Did I show you this one?

that's a great tool

It's a mechanical pencil.
That is a wooden pencil.

Nice.
I've, I've got some, uh,what are these called?
China marker Here

quick

A, uh,

Pull out a le

brown pencil.
I, I have no idea why that's inhere, but it, it's not something
that I can get rid of clearly.
Anyway.

That's a quick finding your.
Your thing here, A lead holder.

Yeah, those aren't in this, they're not in this

Okay, then I won't.

I'm

I will

to think of where

take

now that you say that.
think they're upstairs.
Oh, you got the Thin,that's a Staedler, isn't it?

it.
Is.

Yeah.
I, we have a couple of those around,but I have, I like the, the, big boys.
I like, I like the

Oh, yeah.

too.
Yeah.

I was,

this?

I was watching,

I thought that might be a lead holder, but it's not.

I was watching a documentary about, um, Louis Kahn.
Of course I was right.

Oh, this is right.
Yeah.
You're, you're doing a deep dive onto the,

Uh,

the, masters here.

yes.
And I was.

from my, from my perspective, uh, casual listening of different
content out there that exists to meis a deep dive into, into the Masters.
What do you got there?

I have the Art Museums of Louis I.
Kahn.

It.
That's a book dedicatedjust to the museums,

Yep.

to have lots of drawings in it.

Oh yeah, there, there, it's just chock-full of drawings, of hand
drawings, preliminary sketches, models.
here's a hand sketch of the Kimball.
Um, I mean.
Yeah, it, it just shows, the good olddays of, 2D communication via the pencil.

(05:45):
Yeah,

Well, I mean this, this back to this conversation I was having
as the person was talking about, justhow really, you know, PE seasoned
architects can just sketch to scale,

yeah.

that, that, and,

Yeah.

it's funny because you don't, you don't even need to really
usually sketch to scale, right?
It's,

Yeah.

you could be sketching in perspective.
You could just be sketching ideas.
Diagrams, it's about relationships,it's not about the detail list stuff.

Mm-hmm.

then there are like, like you, I'm sure you can do this.
Like I actually have a pile ofsketches around here, some somewhere
where it was like a week's worth ofjust sketching details for a project.
And they were pretty close to beingat, one half inch scale, I think
is what I was kind of drawing at.
And I wasn't really trying to,but it just kind of wor once
you draw something that you

Right,

everything else to, I.
Because it was like a wood frameconstruction building, right?
Here's a two by

right.

bottom plate or a two by six bottom plate, and now everything you,
you just draw it in relation to that and,and it kind of makes sense for the people
you're handing it to to make something

So.

out of.

I was on site one time and I was standing next
to, the site superintendent.
We were in, it was an executiveconference room for, the university
that we were working on, and we werelooking at the windows we had some clear
story in, in this, conference room.

(07:11):
And it just, it didn't turn out theway we were hoping the details were.
And they were just like, Hey,can you come up with a sketch for
something that trimmed these out?
it was a hollow metal frame that,was a custom hollow metal frame, but
it just, it didn't turn out the waywe were all hoping it was going to.
So, the rest of the conferenceroom was, Wood paneling and,

(07:38):
wood trim and everything else.
The reason we didn't do the woodtrim and everything over it is
because these were acoustic, windows.
it was kind of chunky and we didn'treally, the frame that we made
was really a thin profile frame,and we were, we were trying to,

can I, can I pause here?

sure.

window?
Never heard of it.
Of what?
An acoustic window.
What is that

You've never heard of an acoustic buna?

you mean like a triple pane?
Like it's

Y Yeah, yeah,

Okay.
I,

Well, think, think about.
Well, I mean, you thinking about like,you know, all of the guitars and stuff
on the back, your background, so like arecording studio or something like that.
The window, you know thatthose kind of windows

cutting down on the sound transmission with

cutting down on the sound Transmit, yes.

Referred to as an acoustic window, so thank
I learned something new here.

Okay, so, so he was just like, can you, can
you come up with something?
We gotta do something.
It, it, this just doesn't look right.
And so I pulled out a pencil in mypocket and started drawing on the wall.
And, I was just like, well, I thinkwe could do this and this and this.

too.
Right, because that's, you

I, I, I do that too.
Yes.
But this particular one wasjust, we were standing there
and I was drawing it on the wall

Mm-hmm.

and he was just like, oh, that looks really good.
And then he is just like, wait a minute.
And he pulls out his tape measure andhe starts taping it and he's like,
did you just draw this one-to-one?
I'm like, yeah.
And, and so I was just like, and sowe started like drawing dimensions,
you know, he was dimension in it andhe was like, you know, it was, and
ultimately we just took a pictureof that 'cause we added dimensions

(09:12):
to it and he was just like, can I goahead and just use this as our sketch?
I'm like, let's do it

Let's do it.

because just make sure your pic, make sure your picture is to scale.
Yeah, I didn't sign it.
It turned out, I mean,it, it turned out nice.
Um, the, the finished product turnedout really nice, but it was, it
was just wild that, you know, itwas just like, Hey, let me do that.

yeah.

I've, I've, I've done the whole drawing upside down.
I was drawing with, anotherclient and we were talking about,
Just a temporary condition.
And I started drawing and I was liketrying to interpret what we were
all talking about, and I was drawingit, put, you know, put the piece
of paper down and I was drawing it.
And he was just like, yeah, yeah,I think that's what we wanna do.

(10:00):
And then he was just like, Vic,did you just draw that upside down?
I was like, well, I was drawingit so that you could see it.
I, I already see it.
I see,

it's

see it up here.
Like, I wanted you to see it.
And so I'm like drawing upside down.
And he's just like, I,he's like, I've worked in.
He's worked in like some, he wasactually the office manager for,
a really big name, um, firm or bigname architect's, husband and wife

(10:29):
team, to be quite honest with you.
I don't know.
They may or may not have,

work?

uh, oh, these were you, you know them.

I couldn't do it.
I couldn't do it,

Well, you, you know who

does have an architectural training.

Yeah, that's true too.
Um.
You know, it's interesting, I've, I've,for the longest time I always met the
architect and school teacher pairing,

Yeah.
Like

I've been meeting more and more architect, architect
pairing, like, good luck with that.

Yeah.
Well, I

Yeah.

they can, if they've made it work, that's great.

Yeah.

them.

Actually last, last night, I, stopped by the.
students that I taught last semesterand they were working on their
project and I was, stop by and theywere asking me some advice and stuff
and so I was drawing and I starteddrawing what I saw on their screen
to talk through something with them.
And, I kept, kind of just kept adjustingit to kind of like, more or less get

(11:35):
it to the scale, like the actual scale.
So that what I was sketching.
And describing actually,like, was workable.
I don't know if they were like, welllook, he can sketch, and it makes sense.
Or if they were even, I mean they werepaying attention, but I mean, I don't
know if they cared or not, but itwas just kind of, interesting that I.

(11:55):
That I, I kind of reminded myself, becauselike, working remotely and, and having
these like, communications by sketching,you know, are few and far between now.

Right.

and so, um, you know, to, I, I kind of just somewhat amazed myself
that I can still sketch as well as I

Because it

to be able to sketch.

right?
I mean, it

Oh yeah.
Yeah.

it's, it may, you may not lose it completely, but you definitely

But you get outta

feel

Yeah.

And, and it's, but, but the interesting thing is that,
and I'm curious students and stuffwho probably don't do that hardly as

Mm-hmm.

we used to.

Right?

You know, there's this idea that I put to sketching, which is kind
of like working at the speed of thought,

Yeah.
Yeah.

much more so than what

Yeah.

on a computer.
And may, may, I'm, that's, maybeit's not fair for everybody, right?
Like that's a generalization, butbecause the computer forces you,
depending on the program you're in,to think about more things earlier.

Yeah.
Mm-hmm.

What is this?
You know?

Right,

and, and, and things like snaps and orthos and all of

right.

of constraints, you know, like legitimately
great constraints when you need

Mm-hmm.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

when you don't, you don't.
And, and, but then the programs forceyou to do stuff like that and it's like,
okay, now I've gotta you just get intoa different mindset where it's like,

Right.

actually try to draw this to scale when it's like, ah, maybe
this isn't the time for that and.
Therefore you have todo it slow more slowly.
Right?
Um, because you can't just describe itlike this isn't ai, LLM style chat, GPT

Yeah.

a detail like when you literally are just sketching so
fast, you know, so fast that when youdraw a box, it's not a box, right?
You

Right.

you're drawing a, a section of a of.
Two by four blocking in a wall with anX in the middle and it just looks like
a blob with an X and everybody around.
Maybe it's just you, maybe it's acouple other people know what that is.
Right?

So let me, can I show you something real quick?

at the speed of thought.
That's communicating.
It's ideating at the speed of thoughtto me and I, that is very different than

How, how many ti

a lot of these digital tools force you to do.

So, um, for the listeners, I'm gonna be sharing my
screen, so maybe we'll drop this in.
There it is.

Yeah.

You know, student,

Get on YouTube people.

yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, get on, get on YouTube
and take a look at this, but I mean.
I, I think you're gonna look at this in,in, you know, something very similar,
similarly to like the conversation.
You know, it's like this was a diagram

layers.
On

upon, layers upon,

yeah.

exactly.
And it was just this conversationthat, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, what if we do this?
Oh, you know, and it was justlike this, this conversation
about like, oh, like how.
The different things that you cando to, like, what if you shifted
it this way and what if you didthat, and what if you reinforced
this kind of like, angular pathwayand, and all of these other things.
And it was just this, kind of funconversation about layering upon,

(15:11):
layering upon layering, and you andI think about, all these different.
architects that, we grew up learningabout and including even in the book,
the sketches that, Louis Kahn wasdoing is just these layers upon layers
and just the thinking and the, justthe fluid, the exactly the, thinking
at the speed of light and usingthe sketching tool as a way to just

(15:33):
kind of like, think through that.
And he's like, oh, we could dothis, and, oh, oh, we could do that.
and it's the, the only thing that kindof like guess somewhat saddens me or.
about the way the iterations ha.
Have evolved, um, especially, whenyou, you rely more on like, you
know, them trying to do thingsto scale and trying to do things.

(15:56):
oh, this would, legitimatelybe what the wall would do.
It's like, at this point,that's not the exercise.
The exercise is to think about, youknow, the, the fluidity of the space
and the interconnectedness and all ofthese other things and yes, you can
evolve all of that from this sketch, but.
The sketch itself is likethe pureness of the thought.
Right.

(16:16):
You know?

And, and that iterative kind of scribble of
overlay on top of overlay and

Mm-hmm.

you go around the shape with the fat pen

Exactly.
Yeah.

because you're just trying to get it a little bit closer

Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

And that's

Yeah.

that the

Yeah.

three circles that you did underneath the fourth one.
still there.

Right.

to clean it up.
There's no eraser.

Exactly.

There's no delete.
There's no undo.
Right?
Undo is.
Pull out another sheet,put it on top, do it again.
That's the newest versionof the current process.
Then you move it over a few

Yeah.

and you

Oh yeah.

another thing and it's like, okay, this room's gonna get bigger.
Slide it

Yep.

draw it a little bigger.

Yeah.

And there's just something like I, yeah, that that
idea of that fluidity, that flow

Mm-hmm.

is there.
of course that can all beaccomplished digitally as well,
but it's totally different.

Yeah.

And, and it can't ha like you gotta have the device,
you gotta be able to communicate.
You gotta throw it up ona, on a projector or you

Right.

share that screen and all of a sudden there's a hiccup
and a road bump and a hurdle to

Yeah.

so somebody else can see it.
And like that stuff, that stuffall kind of sucks still, right?
Like we're just not there yet

Yeah.
Yeah.

with where we were back then.

I mean, the good thing

old.

I will say the good thing.
Yeah, true.
I will say the good thing aboutlike, so, you know, when I, when I
started, that the, the sketch thatI just threw up there, uh, you know,
a student couldn't meet when I was.
On campus.
So we just did a Zoomcall and we're talking.
They're just like, I don't know if ifwe're gonna really get anything out of,

(18:01):
having a zoom call or a crit on Zoom.
And I'm like, we'll make it work.
And

this every day.

I was gonna say, I do this every day.
I was like, who, who?
My beer.
But, but it was, it was more ofjust like, we'll make this work.
And so like that, that sketchingand stuff and, and like, being
able to like, I will say that, yes.
We were just, holding up all of our likepencils and pens and all this other stuff.
But, this is equally a valuabletool, you know, the good old stylus

Is that what that

and, you know, and then, you know, just sit there and sketch over.

I've got the apple pencil here

Yeah.
Well you have, uh, although I, I'mnot sure if you're using it, but
you know, the same computer I have.

That's right.
You reminded me.
I don't use this thing veryoften, but yes, I have.
I have the, the blackone that goes with the

Yeah.

computer,

Okay.
Yeah, mine's.
Mine's

for the apple, the black, the

mine.
Mine's mine's Red

That's nice.
You can actually see it and find

Ex.

you're

Exactly.
Well, no, because this with all of thered pens and all of this other stuff in
the cup, and this thing was sitting inhere and I'm sitting there and I'm like.
Searching around what?
I'm like, where is it?
Where is it?
And I'm like, I don't see it, you know?
And, and it sure enough itwas, it was right there.

(19:22):
And then I pulled out another penand it, because it's, it's got the
little, you know, magnet in there.
It was like magnetizeda couple of other pens.
So when I pulled it out, head,like three pens that came with it.

leave it in there too long, it won't have
that magnet anymore probably.

Well, it was, I, I didn't even realize it was in there.
Normally I just set it on the actualcomputer itself and just do that.

So I, I have a question for you.
Uh, speaking of, of how things havechanged, you sent me a text the other day.
I'm pulling it up here.
Uh, and

Oh

says, something, uh, that, that.
Alludes to you lamenting thecurrent state of architecture here.

yeah.

what's a bit depressing, what the profession today is.
Why don't you go aheadand finish that sentence.

Wait, do I have to now I'm gonna have to go and read it.

I can, I can

I don't,

you if you,

yeah, finish it for me.

to look it up.
Okay, so it says we don't reallydo much more than box checking.

Hmm.

What,

Yeah.

brought that on?
Because I, I have somethoughts about this.
Like, like what is the typical day today of an architect working on a project?
Is it, is it just

Well,

and box checking and moving paper and meetings?

so yeah.

Yeah.

Well, so I had a conversation with somebody today

done.
We're

and, and they're like,

answer

know.
Hey, do you have, uh, do youhave time for a meeting today?
And I'm like, sure.
And they're like, well,can you meet at this time?
I'm like, no, I've gota meeting at this time.
They're like, well, canyou meet at that time?
No, no.
I got a meeting at that time.
And they're like, we we're like,well, can you meet at four?
I'm like, sure, why not?
And so it was, I had jumped ona call, you know, for the Saudi

(21:03):
project and of course that was earlyand pretty much have been nonstop.
Since 6:00 AM on, on meetings allthe way through this one at five.
And you know, other than thefew bathroom breaks and coffee
breaks, I was just nonstop.
And

in seat.

because, you know, people, so what was funny is like
one person said, oh, well I'll, I'llmake you know the meeting at this
time so that you'll have a break.
And then somebody else waslistening, oh look, he has some
time in his, in his schedule.
Let me jump in there.

time in your calendar

I know you do that, which is, you know, yeah.

I used to.

Yeah.

that

Well, yeah.
You do need to do it Well, okay.
So where that came from is, again,these, books and, and documentaries
that I've been, you know, listeningto reading and watching that,
that romanticize architecture

Yeah.

And they were talking about like, the quality
of like the, architecture and, andyou know, I, I talked about, um,
listening to, Paul Goldberger's,the, his book on architecture, which
I literally have blanked on it.
'cause I told you earlier today thatmy mind is so fried that I, I, I

(22:19):
don't even know what, why architecturema, why architecture matters.
And, you know, they were talking aboutthe, um, you know, just the way that back
then these architects did romanticizeabout like everything, the line, you
know, and all of these other things.
And we,

Yeah, you

we literally just,

You sent me some quotes

yeah,

actually

yeah.

I think you have a sein quote here.
It says.

Yeah.

Uh, you have to remember that architecture is not just here to
give space and shelter, but to, but toarchitecture also has the purpose to
elevate and enhance man's time on earth.

Right, right.

Speaking of romanticizing

so and so all of those were kind of like, all of
those were sort of like, you know,lumped together in this whole kind
of like stream of thought of, are we.
And, and you drive around and you seewhat is being produced and what's being
built and all of this other stuff.
And we do know that not everythingis being, you know, designed and
built by architects, that there'sa very small percentage of work

(23:23):
that's being done by architects.
But then you say,

between architecture.
Right.
And

right.

there, just because there's an architect involved doesn't
mean it's capital A architecture

And that, and that was sort of where I was going, is
like even the buildings that arebeing done by architects, are they
buildings or are they architecture

Well, the funny thing, if you, if you just kind of think about
that from a real surface level, it's likewe're talking about the commoditization

mm-hmm.

so many things,

Yeah.
Yeah.

And like every architect's got the same set of
tools that every other architect

Right.

Right.
And everybody's competing kind of atthe same like level of thought when,

Yeah.

going after work, it's like the, the same, the same
meetings are happening in thesame offices everywhere like this.
differentiate ourselves in this reallysubtle, nuanced way, and it's like.

Yeah.
Yeah.

Okay.
Everybody's thinking that, right?
It is kind of sad too, right?

Well, the, so the documentary that I was, watching on
Sarin, um, that prompted that, that,me sending you that, that text, he was
talking about how architects have aresponsibility to elevate and create

(24:50):
more than just your average building.
You know, that, you know, we shouldstrive for, these amazing spaces.
And then the box checking commentcomes from just the fact that, you
drive around and you look at thingsthat are designed by architects that
are just, okay, well this meets code.
Okay.
this is, the developer will be able to,to afford to build this or, or whatever.

(25:15):
And there's so many things that,kind of get in the way to like.
Dumb down.
What we're, what our, I, I guess the,the spiritual side of the task that,
we all sort of got into architecturefor, we didn't get into architecture
to just build code minimum buildings.
I mean, our conversation, youknow, with William, um, was

(25:39):
all about, this, you know.
What can ai, do to kind of like,take over, the mundane task?
Well, if we're creatingmundane buildings, guess what?
It's, it's gonna take overthe entire task in a way.
Um,

and, and architecture is basically, I, I would say like.
Your role in your firm is drivenby the expectations of others

yeah.
Yeah.

it's right, and so

Yeah.

I mean, this is like.
Project management 1 0 1 is

Mm-hmm.

busy.
I'm,

Yeah.

and what does busy mean?

Yeah,

I'm, I'm living in Outlook all day long, every day.
My phone's going off,

yeah,

I am checking boxes.
I mean, you

yeah.
Yeah.

and, and, and because everything's deadline driven.
And your client wants stuff and the aHJ wants stuff and the QA person wants
stuff and the spec writer needs stuff,and those things have to get printed.
And all, all of this, it's like the, youliterally are just like trying to hang on.
And what you're talkingabout, like the romantic

What?

of, of

Yeah.

hearing and reading and all of those things was like
very small firm where one person.

Yeah.

taking bets, right?
Like, like seriously trying to do thingsthat no one had seen before, no one

Right.

Um, because I mean, call it privilege, call it a
luxurious position, whatever.
Like they

Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.

right?
Like they built it on purposeand they built it on, on tons
of other people's backs, right?
Who were.
Signing up to understudy with, with them

right, right.

little Recognition, know, anything.
Right?
Um, and it, but then also in hopesof doing it themselves one day.
Right.

Yeah.

and, and like they built that practice to do that thing, and,
and that is a very different thing thanthe kinds of medium and large size firms
for the most part, that are doing today.

There was a.
I'm just gonna keep, go rollingwith the whole nerdom thing.
But, there is another, documentary thatI was watching called Tiger City, about,
Louis Kahn's, uh, Bangladesh, parliamentbuilding It was interesting because
of the people that was, were beinginterviewed were people that, had worked

(28:10):
with or worked for or had experienced.
just the, the kinda like the geniusbehind, Louis Kahn and, there
was like, Stephen Hall was, beinginterviewed and he was talking about
I wanted to go work for him because.
You know, of the way that his processand his model building and, and just

(28:31):
the way that he sketched and, the waythat he thought through everything.
And unfortunately, he passed awaybefore Steve could even go work for him.
But, you know, that was his plans,is that he was going to do that.
And it was just this.
And so then I, I'm watching the oneon serin and then just this amazing.

(28:51):
Group of Pritzker Prize winning a i aGold award-winning, FAIA, architects
are all like these, disciples of histhat, are still pushing the envelope
of, amazing work or, actually have,have all probably, retired and
Possibly passed in their own right.

(29:11):
But I mean, it was just like theseamazing, group of architects that
worked with them that you kind ofwonder is like, where, where is the
next run of, Seins that are creatingthe next level of, amazing architects
that are working for them or the,the Louis KH that are created.
I mean our, our,

'em, we, we've seen a lot of 'em at the

well, yeah.

I mean, and, and at the same time, like they're.
still guilty of doing the same thingof building a practice on the backs of

Yeah.
Yeah.

labor, labor.
Right.

Well,

who are

true.

the grunt work like, but what's interesting is like that
conversation you referenced withWilliam Dodge that we had it, it's
like this idea of like, maybe there'sactually a way out of this with
the tools that take the mundane.
Off my

was, yeah.

let's just say

Yeah.

way.
Right.
and, and that's gonna takea while still, but it,

Yeah.

I could actually potentially see that happening

I, I, I think I, I remember this conversation that I
had with you about like, if you wereto start a practice from scratch,
how would you go about today?

Yeah.

How would you go about doing that?

ago, or five years

Right.

Like it's even, it's pretty wildly different than what
it was just that short time ago.

You know, it's, it's funny, I've been thinking about.
because been reading and, and.
Listening and watching all of thesedifferent things about all these,
master architects from, back in the day.
And I've been thinking this is like,oh, you know, what I would really
love to do is, start my own practiceagain and, have it be kind of the
architects, the architectural workshop.

(30:52):
But then I started thinking,how would I go about doing that?
Because remembering the conversationthat you and I had with, you thinking
about how you would start a practicetoday with today's tools and I was
thinking to myself, I was like, Idon't want any of today's tools.
I,

Yeah, I mean, that's

I, I want the trace paper, I want the wooden models.
I want the, the, the, the fun.

the mundane.
And I think you

But yeah,

of it being a cult of busyness is real,

yeah, yeah.
Oh yeah.

And, and if you do a small firm, like you literally have
to do all that yourself, right?
Or

Yeah.

start building a team, assembling a team to do that stuff.
And then you need to findpeople who really wanna do
that stuff and are good at it.

I feel like I was sharper and more on my game when I
worked for a smaller firm that I hadto do everything because I had, my
kind of like fingers and everything.
Design, you know, manager,you know, I was younger and I
could, sure, I could do that.

(31:55):
Ouch,
man.
I'm old and tired.
Uh, believe there is a, uh, spacefor you behind the Woodhead.

But I, I know what you mean.
And, and, but you were, youliterally were younger and your

I was.

and, and there, like it was more, you could deal with
that way better than you could now.

Well, but what's funny though is like, you know, so
again, I, all of these things thatI've been doing more recently, just,
like reading, watching, absorbinghistory and stuff are the things.
Are No, no, no, no, no.
Are the things that I wish that Iwould have done back when I was younger

(32:41):
to have an even like broader sense.
Now I'm like, man, why didn't I do this?
You know, like,

you?

because we were busy to,

the thesis here, because

yeah,

checking boxes like you've been

yeah,

busy.
You've

Yes.

buried by architecture,

Yeah.

these projects, by the busyness, by like this.
I mean, and what's crazyis people say, I'm busy.
Like they're, and and like,what happens at review time?
I did all these things.
And it was like, but is that effective?
Is that the true value?
Is that

Right,

purpose and service in the pursuit of what we stand for?

right.

it.
And yet people get rewarded for

Mm-hmm.

then, oh, guess what?
Effective more, right.

Yeah.

The reward for, for

Uh.

a lot of work done is more work.

Yeah.
As I, as we always say, it'slike, you know, um, the reward
for hard work is more hard work,

Yes.

and I know you just said that, but it was, it's
just like, I literally just saidthat to somebody the other day.
I told them that, Hey, I know thatyou've been working really, really
hard, but I've got more work for you

Yeah.
Right,

in, in, in, in my,

you can

yeah.

and all of

Exactly, and, and in my position, I feel horrible that I'm asking
somebody to basically do more work becausethey've done so much work previously.

Yeah,

Because I saw that.
That's

it.

'cause I lived, that I, I lived that whole thing.
I did wanna ask you.

you, have you seen those things where it's like, you, you go to
the coffee bar and it's like, if, if.
If, if you stand at the counter,if you order, it costs this much.
If you stand here and watch it costs

No.
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

If you tell me, if you ask me for something, it costs even more.
There's like differentversions of that out there.
But like, I think

yeah,

all this comes back to is kind of this idea
of like, of like trust number

yeah.

and like the, the real specifically.
Like what, what you are goodat doing and how you do it is
kind of like your business.
That's where that trust is built.
It's like that you can do what you sayyou're gonna do, and then there's this,
this other thing of, of expectationsand urgency and priorities and other
people's versions of that being

Right.

you.
My urgency is your priority andlike, that's what email is, right?
It's just an inbox of to-do itemsfor things for you that, that
you didn't sign up for, right?
Like it's just, it's justlike a, a, a trash bin.
That's enormous and people are justthrowing stuff in and, and you're
gonna, you have to deal with sorting itout and prioritizing it and doing all

(35:31):
these things just like a free for all.

Yeah.

That's the life we all live.

Yeah.
I, I wanna change topics a littlebit, even though it's kind of building
off of what something that we were

we're really getting anywhere.

Yeah, well I'm gonna preface this by quoting, could quote
at least two people, but one personhas said it a couple of times.
Um, but, so sitting in studio with thesestudents and, I always ask them, do
you, have you heard of this architect,or have you heard of this building?

(36:08):
And, the quote was, you know, cormick,don't you know that if you ask us,
what this architect, you know, who thisarchitect was, or, you know, what this
building was that we're not gonna know?

The answer's no.

Yeah.
And so then, I was talking to 'em,yesterday and had said, you know,
I'm, you know, I've been watchingthese, architectural documentaries,
and they're like, of course you have.
You know, and then I had asked themyesterday, do you know who Aerin is?
And there was somebody sitting behindme who had, you know, said out loud,

(36:43):
Cormick, we don't know who that is.
And of course, like it was sort of painfulthat, one of my, top five architects,

What year are these

I'm not going to, I'm, I'm not gonna devote you, but

I don't even know.

Well, but, but, so here.
So here, uh, and it, and it well couldbe too, because I've had conversations
with people who, I work side by sidewith that, have, so here's my question
to you, because clearly I've been havingthis question to myself quite a bit and
feeling that there is a, you know, thereis some, a lot of importance to it.

(37:19):
What is.
What do you feel like is the importance oflearning architectural history architects
and building history as an architect?
What is that value of that?

So there's, there definitely is a value.
I, I mean, it would be.
I'm, I guess I was gonna say it

Sorry to put you on the spot.

pull that out and put Yeah.
But, but at the same time,it's, it's kind of fundamental
to how you become an architect

Mm-hmm.

other architects and those projects and to

Mm-hmm.

not only like go through the drawings, but visit those places.
Right.
Because you get to see,you get to experience that

Right.

Right.
And so, like this, this level of like,there's something to be said about.
Access to all information at any moment.

Sure.
Sure.

time, totally a crutch, right?
Because it's like, Idon't, I, don't, I'm busy.
I don't have the

Yeah.

to go do that.
It's cool that I can just pull itup at a moment's notice, and yet you
never get like over the threshold.

Right.

being able

Yeah.

have these conversations and why they're important and what are
these examples and Oh, did you sense thescale of that place when you went into it?
Because,

Yeah.

because I looked at it on a screen.
I looked at it on a tiny screen.
Right.
And, and so I reallydon't have a feel for it.
And what's so interesting tome is like the older that I've
gotten and being an architect,

Mm-hmm.

Wow.
It matters so much.

Right.

so much.
You have to do that stuffto be the communicator, the

Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.

the inclusive.
Like let's sit around thetable and talk about ideas.
Like to be able to transform an ideainto reality, you have to have lived.
I believe you have

Right,

you have to have practiced, you

right,

to have cooked your own food.
You have to have gone to the bathroomin an outhouse to a a, like the most
palatial bathroom you've ever like.
You have all the versions

right, right.
Yeah, exactly.

your own pots and stored them in cabinets.
To understand how much space isneeded for these kinds of things,

Yeah, yeah,

to know that like this door on this room is installed
180 degrees the wrong way.
For various reasons because

yeah.

like, I, I know what works

Right, right.

right?
It's like,

Yeah,

like, this is the weirdest way I could answer your question, right?

no, it's exactly a great, yeah, I.

academic.
It's like, like, here, here are therealities of why you should study this
stuff, but really experience this stuff.

Experiencing spaces in places to, I mean, if you were the
shaper creator, a motor of, these.
Places and spaces youhave to understand them.
I mean, having like this understanding ofhow other people use them or at least the
curiosity to ask and experience how, andobserve how other people are using things.

(40:37):
I mean, to, to reallyunderstand how, in fact, I mean.
I've, I've always had somewhat of,a little bit of a distaste for the,
architect to architect conversationthat's simply about design without
including like the users that are goingto be experiencing living and breathing

(40:58):
those spaces for, for however long theywork there, or, live there or whatever.
And just, we trust me.
I love waxing poetic about architecturea hundred percent, obviously, but
I also like to just have a simpleconversation about, Hey, Evan,
how would you use this space?

(41:19):
And then learning from other people

you do

how,

What do you do

right, right.

like that's, not just how do you use it.
so many, there's so many levels to that.
That's the first question,

Yeah.
Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, it's just like, you know, Hey, we're
going to design a classroom.
Are you just going to, pop in, oh, here'show I think I would use a classroom.
Well, are you the teacher?
Are you the one who's gonnabe there on a daily basis?
Are you the student who'sgoing to be using this?
How, isn't it better to have thatconversation with, the people who

(41:52):
experience it on a daily basis?
Or to your point, okay, if you'regonna go, design a classroom, then
go experience other classrooms.
watch what people do inthem, how they engage them.
I was, trying to explain to my astudents that almost every memory that

(42:13):
people have, is usually wrapped around.
A space or a place, right.
there, you know, an emotion, oh, thiswas the last time I saw this person.
And it could be like in a place,where they last saw that person
or oh, I remember when I was inclass here, or something like that.

(42:33):
And it is, it's always thisphysical embodiment of memory.
And we get to do that.
We get to create that.
We get to be a part of everybody's memory.
Without knowing that we'rea part of their memory.
And so to me that's like our taskis like, okay, if, if you just think

(42:58):
that, on a greater grander scale thatyour shaping other people's memories,
how then would you create that space?

Mm.
How do you keep that of mind whenyou're doing it, when you're,

He, he's, yeah.

back an email at a contractor?

When you're checking the boxes, you know

Yeah.

it is on page 12.

an an overall sense of, of purpose and, and intention.
I mean.
I mean, I can imagine you might writeit on a sticky note, put it right on
your monitor after I saw the photo youposted after we recorded last week.

Yeah, I do that a lot.

monitors are covered in sticky notes, but like,
yeah, like, uh, that, that is.
Something that you would haveto keep reminding yourself.
You almost need, like, it's likethose glucose monitors that I just

Um,

this constant measurement.

Yeah.

did you forget?
Did you forget?
Oh, here, here, here's a reminder.
This is why, this is whyyou're doing what you're doing.

Yeah.
I re remember, I was the,

to the other, all, you know, the 99% of all the other crap
that you have to do to deal with.
Uh, that it's, it's hard to remember that.

remember the, the.
I am the one who for however long, um,and it's out of view and out of reach,
so I can't pull it off the wall, but, youknow, has a little orange sticky note.
Uh, 'cause I had a wholebunch of orange sticky notes.
Remember from my year long, daily sketches

Mm-hmm.

that has a question mark on it.
That's all it has on it.
I've always had a question mark on mydesk somewhere, and the whole intent
of that is to question everything.
I just question everything like, andso, people would come up with like,
what's the question mark for Exactly.
You know?

getting it.
You're

Yeah.
You know, but it's just like.
Eh, yeah.
I don't know.
I guess I need to stopreading some of these.
They're like romance novels to me, you

are, they're.

know, they're totally like, you know, oh Lou, you get me.
Uh, I wish other people did.

Well, it sounds

You know?

recommendations for the audience.
Let, let's finish up here with,and do you, can you, uh, we, I,
we'll definitely put the titles tothese things into the show notes

Yeah.

for those who want to partake, but can you remember
off, off the top of your head whatthe names of these things are?

So I will say, books that I'm either listening to or reading,

Mm-hmm.

you say to the brick need, you guess with that.
Who?
Yes.

brick.
Okay.

Gropius.
Um, I, I, I had to, I.
Yes, I know.
And for if possibly a professoris listening to this Yes, I
know I was supposed to read it.
Yes, I did write a report about it andwill admit to it that I did not read it.

(46:08):
The Death in Life of Great American Cities

How, how many years ago are we talking right now?

uh, a long time ago.

Okay.
The, the statute of limitations has

Yeah.
Obviously modern man.

Wait, say the name of the, the previous one that you didn't

Oh,

for or that you

uh,

for.

the Death and Life of Great American Cities, Jane Jacobs.
Um, okay, so I have read as kind of moreof like reference guides, these two books.
Yet I think reading them in bookform is better than listening to 'em.

(46:48):
Oh my Lord.
Just don't.
Don't listen to 'em.
And I apolo

some books that just don't work.
Yeah.

a pattern.
Language

Okay.
Yeah.
No,

is not an audio book.
Sorry.

Have you

Sorry.

to listen to that?

Yes, it is.

that doesn't seem like it's like, it's like trying

It's a thing.

standards?

Yes.
A timeless way of buildinganother one of, uh, of his that,

Alexanders?

Alexander's work that.
Is not an audiobook.
I'm, I'm, I thought, Ooh, cool.
Audiobook.
Nope, not an audiobook.

An illustrated guide to building construction.
I'm gonna listen to that on the way.

It's, it's funny is that I have, I have a building Code
illustrated sitting on my desk right here.

There you go.
Yeah.

I couldn't imagine that being a a a a, um,

Let's turn

an audio book.

here.

Um, yes, uh, broken glass, about the Farnsworth House.

Okay.

Honestly, this is a really good read 'cause I do have the book and
I, but this is also a very good listenand that is why architecture matters and
I've got something in my eye for thosethat are watching this 'cause I am.

I think I have that.
You know, I don't.
I, I would

It's, it's, you know, Paul, Paul Goldberger,
and honestly, it's, it's good.
It's good.
It, I, I've, I appreciate it becauseit's, yeah, I definitely recommend it.
and then, so, and then of course, like,the biography is like, Frank Lloyd
Wright and modern, uh, man, about, corp.
we've already talkedabout like all of these.
And so, the.

(48:43):
the witch McCollums that I'vebeen watching, the, uh, witch
McCalls, I believe Witch McCollumis the, this yu will love.
Alto

Mm.
That's just what?
That's what it's called.

yeah, it's just alto, uh.

confused with the video game Alto's Adventure.
Right.

This is, this was the, the PBS Special American
Masters, about Aerin and thenTiger City, which is on Louis Kahn.
were the three that Ijust recently watched.
and our watching, I'm in themiddle of Alto and, you know,
it's so I would love someday just.

(49:27):
Because I'm that kind of a weirdperson to like put this diagram up
on the wall that has like picturesof all of these different architects
and like just put strings that,

You are

you know, to each of

your,

Yes, I'm still talking about it.

No, you're, you're basically describing like you're,
is gonna be on a wall in a cabinin the backwood somewhere because

He said, I told you when, when I have my,
the architectural workshop.
The architectural workshop is justme doing hands on things, you know,
and one of them is gonna be this,

of

core board wall of connections between all of these
different architects and stuff.

yarn.
And photos,

What was funny is, you know, here we.

There'll

know, here we are talking to, William Dodge and, and he's talking
about, his connection to Albert Kahn.
And, here I am living in Detroit whereAlbert Kahan, lived in, practiced and
learned architecture and everything else.
And you see the connection ofother architects that you know.
You know, we, we want, we may wantto say Albert Kahn, for the Detroit

(50:39):
areas, like, the, the beginning,but he wasn't even the beginning.
He had apprentice with some amazingarchitects that we just don't even
know who they are, but some amazingarchitects that then he learned
his craft and then you see like thelineage of all of the different.
People who used to work under Khan andthose lineages and then other people kind
of like adjacent to 'em that went in otherdirections that like, started the Smith

(51:02):
Group and all of these other ones and howthere's this just amoeba, this nebulous of
like all the different architects and how

Yeah.

it is.
And I'm pretty positive.
That, you're probably working forsomebody or you've worked with somebody
who's worked with somebody who's workedwith probably one of your favorites.
I remember, my, um, one of my professorswas a project manager for, Meese.

(51:31):
And, here I am, learningarchitecture from somebody.
So I'm, two degrees separated from me,you know, and it's just, it's kind of
cool when you think about stuff like that.

you're the Kevin Bacon of this, of this algorithm right

Uh,

six degrees of Cor of Corm Phalen,

Mabel Bacon maybe.

That's great.
I've got the episode title.

There you go.
Maple.
Maple bacon of architecture.

Maybe the maple bacon.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Somebody say Bacon.

Yeah.
Dammit.
Now I'm hungry.
Uh, I was kind of hoping it wasCormick in his, uh, purple marker.
Yeah.

Purple Felt tip.
Uh,

pen.

back.
Bringing it back to the beginning.
Good

Yeah.
Learn your history, folks.
Learn your history.
It's fun.
Maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe it's not fun, but it's fun.

it's fun for you.

It's not fun.
Speak, just history, weirdness.
I don't know why I woke up this morning.
And I had a song in my head thatI don't believe that I have heard
in my head since I was a kid.

(53:04):
And I don't know if you rememberthe, the, those little, you know,
cartoon PSAs that they used to put on.

Well, some of 'em I'm sure.

So Hanker for a hunk of cheese.
Do you remember that?

that.
I've heard that terminology.
I, have to hear

It was, from a PBS, so we should put it in the,
the link or in the show notes.
Just because, you know,

Just for fun.
A

just,

egg.

just for fun, you know.
And if somebody's like listening to the,to the end of this, then, then, yeah.
come on, I'm waiting for.
A commercial to run through sothat then the video will play.
Maybe, maybe, maybe.

(53:53):
No,
I'm going to press it again.

Hold it up to your mic.
I wanna

Oh, howdy there.
Time for Tyler.
Do you ever get that hungryfeeling after school?
Boy, I do.
I'm so hungry.
I could eat a wagon wheel when I'm slowon the draw and I need something to haw.
I ker for a hunker cheese.
When my 10 gallon hats are feeling fivegallons flat, I got something planned,
which is little cheese sandwiches.

(54:24):
Come on, here's a great little snack taco.
I'm gonna just stop it there.
But

That's

I mean, I literally woke up saying, uh, hanger for a hunk of cheese.
I like, what the hell was going throughmy head in the middle of the night for
me to wake up to think about some PSA.
Cartoon from the seventies.

Nice.
Uh, this is, this has beena nostalgic conversation,

It has, it has.

Uh.
All right, until next time.

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#366 - Why Architects MUST Question Everything to Create Memorable Spaces

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#366 - Why Architects MUST Question Everything to Create Memorable Spaces