#371 - Genius Loci - Archispeak

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Evan Troxel (00:09):
Cormac, you have
a question?
for the show?
You AskArchispeak.com,
is that what you

Cormac Phalen (00:14):
I do, I have a question.

Well, you sent it, you sent it, you sent it on text message.

Which which, which question?

Why don't people talk about or teach about

Genius Loci.

Loki?
He said, so it says genius

Genius Loci or Genius Loci.

Yeah.
So, and, and my responseis never heard of it.

Never heard of it, which means that apparently
they didn't teach it in

I could have been sleeping, I could have been sleeping.

I will preface this by the professor that did
teach this had a master's fromanother school in philosophy.
And so that very much could havebeen the root of the reason.

So Latin, Latin philosophical roots is what I'm hearing here.

Well, he was Turk, he was Turkish.

Well, I mean, the term

Yes.

Latin, right?
Yeah.

Yes.
And

so translate.
Translate.
what what does this mean?

well, I mean, honestly, spirit of the place, what does that mean?
For, for everybody, is itwhat an architect does or what
an architect contributes to?
Is it, when you think of aplace, like a place that's near
and dear to your heart, right?
That is a special place to you.

(01:36):
That's its, genius loci.
And I don't know if we can createit without understanding, what
it is that where it is and whatit is that we are building.
In fact, I don't knowif it, it's one of the.
It's interesting because Ialways struggle with what

(01:58):
excites me about architecture.
It's this emotional impulse,this like, kind of like, oh
my God, this place is great.
And you're like, well, what doesit, what do you mean by what does
it make, like, what makes it great?
You're like, it's hard to explain.
It's just this emotional feeling.
It's this overwhelming

Yeah.

thing.
And, and that to me is genius loci,

So you're,

but

about qualitative versus quantitative,

completely, yes,

somebody
says,

I

that mean?
Or it's like, well,it's, I can't tell you.
It's how it feels.
It's how it makes me feel.

right.

feely.
It's that, that end of the

Exactly.

Yeah.

When somebody's just like, well how do you know that?

you.
see it

Exactly?
We, we,

it

you know, when you're designing something
and somebody's, well, well,how do you know that's right?
It just feels right.
You know, like, well, what does that mean?
Like,
quantify it for me.
It's just like, I don't
look like you.
It's like,

It's, it's an output of experience and, and
experience and experience.

so, when,
so what was interesting is
it kind of came up.
And so one of the things that I do wannatalk about is some, something else.
I did have another question.
Ask our to speak.

Got got 'em queued up.

I, I have, I have another one.
And, and, and I think I asked you andanother friend of our show in a, in
a chat earlier today because of justanother, like chat that I was having.
And it kind of goes into this kindof like why I started thinking about
my old professor and this, thisconcept of genius loci and and if

(03:42):
I'm saying it wrong, whatever, I,

know.

I'm not old.

know.

I,

Cormick.

I'm not old or Latin.
Well, I am old, but I'm not Latin.

You are old.

I was gonna say, I'm not old and Latin.
I'm not old and Latin, but I'm just old.
And it was, so, it, it came aboutwhen I was thinking about my very
first visit to Chicago, whichwas on an architectural tour.
And as I kind of had this opportunityto do some volunteer work this past

(04:16):
weekend that then extended into,something that actually turned
out, kind of pretty exciting.
And we'll talk about that in a, in afew, but it was, I was thinking about
my professors and the two professorsthat took us on this trip and, you
know, one of 'em that was a he was adisciple of me, Vander, he worked with

(04:37):
me, Vander, he was, and I, I took them.
I, I, I, I don't want to give it away, butI, I saw some Meese this weekend as well.
But so.
It, we were, I was at the FrankLloyd Wright house and studio.
I was volunteering atthe house and studio.
There was an event calledthe Right Plus Tour.
And what the right plus Tour was is thatbasically they open up a bunch of private

(05:02):
homes that were either done by Wrightor Wright adjacent RightRight adjacent.
So, so what I mean by that is there was, ahand, there was a, there was a handful of
some of the houses that were open, theseprivate houses that were open, that they
were done by either disciples of Wright,you know, former employees of Wright.

you use this word, disciples.
You, you just keepthrowing this word around

Is, is that how it, that's how the, that's how they're explained.
Which is which,

it

which, which goes, which goes to this other ask arch speak
question of is, what do you call Frank?
What do you call Frank Lloyd Wright?

Who?
Yeah.
How do you refer

how do you refer him?

referred to as,

He who is referred to by most people in a very reverent tone as Mr.
Wright.

Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That, I think that, that's justlike the style guide for the,

yeah,

though.

probably, probably.
And, and, and, and so,
so conversation today was, it's like,
I find it really, kind of, presumptuous,not presump presumptuous or what,
what did, what, what did he call me?

pull up the, pull up the

I,

the tape.
Let's do a playback

yeah.
Just gotta figure out what,

gotta find the right word here.

yeah, so, and I, I, I, I'm seriously not sure why I am blanking.
Oh, presumptuous and pretentious
to call.

a mister.

No, no, no, no, no.
To call him to be too familiarwith him and call him Frank.

Oh, interesting.

am like,

other way around.

so

just the pro Well, you, you don't have, we don't have
manners anymore as modern Americans.
I mean, ask my wife how I,that, that's how I know.

Yeah.

And,
so I mean,
if,
if you watch like these old, you, you,
like watching these old European TV shows,

Right.

the British shows and all and, and really proper it,
everybody was mister and and miss

Sure.

yeah.

And if

gone.

and if by some, some chance I was living back there
and I was a client of his then,
Sure.
I would call him, Mr.
Wright or you know, probablybecause I'm a client of his,
would get familiar with him.
It would, it would beokay to call him Frank.
I don't actually call him Frank.
I call him Wright.

are the stories architects tell themselves.

Yeah.

him, right?

I call him Wright.
And

that's right.
You do.
I I actually just say the whole thing.
Frank Lloyd.

so.

Because, because it depends who you're talking to,

So what's interesting is I, I polled a bunch of people.
I, I polled a bunch ofpeople in almost every,

Yeah.
You, yeah.

and, and, and a whole bunch of them answered, well, I
just call him Frank Lloyd Wright,
you know, and I'm just like,that's like a mouthful.
I'm bored halfway through the saying that

My attention span doesn't last that

exactly.
I'm, you know, it's just like I've,

so, Mr.
Efficiency,

Hey, gotta get it done right.
I got, I got, I got deadlines.

You gotta get it done right?
Like I, now I
Like, like, here we go.
I mean, you've, the problem with the,
last name

it is done right.

different, at least two different meetings

Sure.
Oh my goodness.
So I will say that.
So I will say that, youknow, because I say, right.
And of course this right and right,
and when you're talking about,when you're giving a tour.
So what I was as, I was a volunteer docentand got to work in his home and studio,
and here's a little, my little pamphlet.

brochure

it's not a it is,

Booty.

is not a brochure.
It is,

Is

it is, it is the,

notes?

is the cliff notes of like,

guide.

if I had a speaking role, which I did, I did.
Then

a bow tie?

no,
come on.
Did I tuck,

Wright didn't approve of, of

did I tuck it?
Did I tuck in my shirt?
No.

I've seen you tuck in your shirt before.

Yeah, it's so uncom, it's so uncomfortable.
It is not me.

Okay.

so not me.
So,

referred to him just as Right.
In the

well, what was funny is I actually, so I, I gotta, I gotta sort of
read my interpretation.
And

okay.

there's, there was these two, so when I got to this, this point
here, flanking, the entrances are a pairof crouching figures called the boulders.
The sculptures represent man's struggleto rise above the bonds of Earth, which is
a metaphor for rights, progressive ideas.
And I'm like, and then Iwas like, whatever, Frank.

So, so when, when you're not approving it's first name, it's a
Name

yes.
So, so here, what was funny aboutthat is a, it was man struggled
to rise above the bonds of Earth.
Now,
when he added
the, the studio onto his house in 1898,

Mm.

he was in his twenties.
What struggles does a 20-year-oldhave as, as parents of

struggles.
I mean, It was, a metaphor for a metaphor.

it was it was actually great.
So it was, it was fantastic.
And, but I can you guesswhat I got chastised for or

too much.
talking, too

talking talking too much and slowing down the tours.

Geez.

I, I, I, I told them, I'm like, see, here's
where you made the mistake.
You gave, you gave a speaking role toan architect, educator, and a podcaster.

I love to talk.
What are you talking about?

I, I was, I was joking with somebody else, and
they're like, don't they know thatthat's what you do for a living?

Right.

I'm like, true.
Right?
Like

And they're

R-I-G-H-T, not W-R-I-G-H-E-F-L-W.

a lot of projects built.

Yes.
Lots.

many, how many Genius Loci?

So, for me,
when I go and visit, there is always
an emotional reaction.
There's always something about.
His understanding of the place.
And, and I don't know if you recallwhen I sent you a photograph when
I was at the Florida SouthernCollege and, we talked about it

recall,

and I was just, I was just like, come on now, because it was
this, well, I, I used, I used anotherfour letter word while I was there
because when I, I rounded the corner and,and all of the conditions were so right.
It smacked me and it was just one of theselike, God damn, this is an amazing space.

need a, I need a, soundbite of that for the podcast.
That'd be
a great way to kick off every episode.
Okay.
So, but okay, let, let's bereally clear here because I, I,
I, The the term that theLatin term genius loci,
if we're saying that right,

Yes.

know if we are, is the spirit of

the
place, Yes.
I.

interesting be when it comes to architecture

Right.

architecture is a place in a place to me,

Yes.
Yes.

What we're actually talking about is like
the project in its setting, right?
Partially.

in context.

a, a cultural aspect.
Yeah.

Yeah,

aspect.
There's all these differentkind of layers to,

yeah.

that, and again, like really hard to
quantify.

Right.

it's a
qualitative sense that

Yes.

could be described by somebody who's really good with
words or expressing emotion or

I feel

photography or through being there, right?

right.
Right,

it can happen, like it can be communicated, but
it's difficult to communicate.
But, but being of a place, and, and
like when I'm reading thedefinition here, I mean, it
actually talks about architecture.
It says aims to designbuildings that respond to and
enhance the genius loci ratherthan impose something foreign.

Right.

And, and so this is
where Frank.
buddy Frank comes in or the guy that
Wright
comes

Mr.
Wright.

and
pretty damn good at
that, right?
Because it was very

Yeah.

I mean, that was kind of the thesis of

so oh yeah, absolutely.
And, and so when we're talking, aboutlike all of these different projects
they had all over the place, and
you and I have had, d bothshared and different experiences
visiting, you know, right.
Houses together, placestogether, places separately.

(13:59):
I've been to Tallys in Wisconsin, you'vebeen to Essan West falling Water, all
of these different places and you almostcan't imagine the places these places I.
Not falling water, but the placethat falling Water now resides
in without, without the house.

(14:22):
Right.
And, and it is enhanced.
It has become part ofthe spirit of the place.
And you almost say, I, I, I can'timagine, a world without it, you know?
And, and I think that's whenarchitecture embodies, this genius loci.
Boy, I hope my professor Tarek Organis not listening to this and he's

(14:44):
saying, you're getting it all wrong.

Well, we haven't studied up on it, but because like I said, this,
this is new to me, but, but it's like when
I read through
this, I, I understand what we're talking

Mm-hmm.

then what I really want to talk about is how you apply this
in modern practice, because there aredefinitely architects who are capable of

Yeah.
Yeah.

in a world with,

I.

with the time and
resource pressures that
there are on projects, on project
teams, on construction,on budget, on all of
these things, man, like it,
we're

So,

two completely

yeah,

eras of architecture and we're not, it's not

yeah,

just

yeah.

to each other.

I,

When we're talking about the projects that, that
you're talking about right

well, you know, it was interesting, so when we were talking to,
William Dodge and we were talking about,the commoditization of architecture.
I think when you're saying that, whatwe're saying is that, there, there
is, it, it's almost this, this cookiecutter, regurgitation of styles in
every location, and it's not really,

is to
spend less time, gofaster, do all the things,
but

How many,

don't take your time

yeah.

and to me this is all about like first

Yes.
Yeah,

understanding at a deep, deep, deep level.

Well, I'll give you

the environment, the design, like all of these things
and how they weave together.
And that there's so much nuance in

yeah.

like, and again, there are people of totally capable of
doing this and that are doing it,
but most unquote architectureand, and all of the buildings

yeah.

fall under that, which are not architecture, they don't have this.

Right, right.
And that, and that was the kinda theimpetus of the question that I sent to
you is like, why don't we talk about this?
Or why don't we teach this?
Or why don't we, and, and Ididn't go that one step further
of why don't we practice this?
And it really is hardbecause, you're right.
How with all of the constraints of,time and budget and speed and, speed

(16:54):
of construction, speed of design, speedof, do we really understand the purpose
of the building and all of these otherthings that we, we basically throw
aside, this kind of like one aspect ofthe building that kind of embodies this
spirit, that when you think about, and,and you've heard me ask this question

(17:14):
of like, what makes a building lovable?
And I, go back to all of theselike, modern, modernist examples.
I won't say modern,but modernist examples.
You know, like Farnsworth House,all of these bright buildings,
con buildings, corps buildingsand all of these other ones.
And you know, you go there and you feel, Ihate to say it, this, this spiritual kind

(17:37):
of, aspect of like the visit, you know,like you and I, I'm, I'm looking forward
to, in a, in a few weeks you and I aregonna be going and visiting like my number
one bucket list building that, since theday that I saw it in architecture school.
I've been looking forward to seeing it.
And I, I hope it's nota let down to be quite

I'm pretty sure you're not allowed.
I'm, I'm
just gonna say it as, as I am I, the CEO
or the president?
I
mean, we're you're
you're one or, and I'm the other, So

whatever.

let's just, I'm the CEO.
You're the presidentas the CEO of Cus peak.
You can't mention the
name of

I, I, I won't, I won't.

be a surprise for a future episode.

yes.

you.

So I won't say it, But,

Thank you.
Thank you, Mr.
President.

yes.
But you know, I am.
In the buildings that I have visitedin the past of this particular
architect and of buildings like this,there's always an emotional experience
of like, how did they do this?
How did they capture this light?
How did they capture this sound?
How did they do this?
How, how, how, like, and it's all theinundation of all of the different

(18:42):
senses working together to just make youfeel almost overwhelmed in the space.

Hmm.

And I don't know, there are modern buildings that I
believe fit this, spirit of the place.
A lot of times there's smaller,there's smaller pieces of architecture,
residential or smaller commercialthat, you know, really kind of like
stop and slow down and understandthe place that they're built and

(19:11):
are, are site purposely built.
And, but you also see, and unfortunatelyI've been a part of, projects that
don't really embody where they're at.
They don't

Well, there's, there's that, and then there's
like the actual soul of the project

right, right.

there are many, many, many soulless projects out

Yes, yes.
Yeah.
And, and so, and so it was, itwas kind of interesting to just
kind of sit there and watch,
so listen to all of the other volunteerdocents throughout the day at the the
home and studio talking about, right.
And talking about, somephilosophies, talking about the
spaces and all of that other stuff.
But I got to be there all day longfrom, the early kind of chilly.

(19:59):
Day at the beginning with the littlebit of gray skies and overcast
and chilly to then it started tolike, brighten up and overcast.
And there was a time when I was I wasin the reception hall and the reception
hall really wasn't a speaking role.
I was a, I was a floater and I waslike relieving somebody who had

(20:19):
been there for a while and they, youknow, needed to take a quick break.
And so I, and they were just like,look, this isn't a speaking role.
But I have been saying, becausethey're waiting to go into the library
and, and they just came from rightsoffice that we, they kind of paused
for a little bit and instead of justsitting in awkward silence, we just
say a little bit about the space.
But one of the amazing thingsabout the space is overhead.

(20:41):
He's got this, him and histhese amazing kind of stained
glass windows that he does.
And he designed this stained glass clearstory, or actually lay light, sorry, let
me get the, the terminology correctly.
And, had this, this stainedglass lay light in there.
It's this 1500, separate pieces of glass,and they're all in a very radiant fashion,

(21:04):
you know, meant to evoke sitting undera tree, a canopy of a tree with, during
the fall, because you can see like avariety of different colors and stuff.
And then because there was a, a, anactual skylight above that lay light,
letting in natural light that during theday when the light actually does pierce

(21:25):
it and, like fills this room with likea rich light, but also with like this
little dappling of color and stuff.

I knew the word dappling was gonna be mentioned.
Yes,

Yes, the, the, the dapple dapple definitely, you
know, is something that is get,gets applied with with, right.
But, so I'm sitting in thebreak room because I am,
technically done for the day.
I've, I've done, I did threeshifts two hour shifts per, so I
was, I was done with my six hours.

Mm-hmm.

and I was, off, it was, I was waiting for some people to show up
that, I, I'll tell that story in a minute.
And, but then the, the sun came outand I just like sat up and I'm just
like, I gotta go to the reception hall.
And they're like.
What are you talking about?
I'm like, sun is out.
And all I could imagine when I wassitting in there is what does this

(22:20):
space feel like when the sun is out?

Hmm

And I, and I rush over there.
I, I, because, I had thelittle badge on, that, said I,

to go wherever you want.

I, I got a hall pass that go wherever I wanted
throughout there and could gothrough the back doors of everything.
So I, I get to the reception halland it did not disappoint at all.

Mm.

It made this, so when you,
it's, it's a stacking view, likeI'm gonna try to like see, so it's
the stacking view back all the wayfurthest from your view is the library.
And it's just filled with natural whitelight coming in through the the clear
stories and it just fills the room and it,and the room is shining in the background.

(23:06):
It's.

It's.
calling

I mean, dude, it's chef's Kiss.
Awesome.
But, but the, but the, the, thereception hall that's in between
the studio and the library
is where I wanted to go.
And it's got a lower ceiling.
It's, it's this kind of like honey coloredwood throughout the whole entire room.

(23:28):
It's got a kind of a lay down space foryou to, you know, for right to stand there
with his drawings, and looking at themwith with contractors or whoever else.
And it's just also where, youknow, people sit and wait for him
when, they have a meeting with him.
But it's so, so now with this like honeycolored wood is now lit up with this

(23:51):
colored light and it like fills the rootand it really does feel very church-like.

Mm-hmm.

you have,

said that, I, I'm thinking of like this particular
cathedral in Paris, right.
And, and
it's just

yeah,

like, that's the
thing.
You walk in the space and it's like, boom.

yeah.

just

It, it's a, oh

you in the face.
And I haven't been there, but I'veeven, I've just seen photos and I
know people who have, and they're

yeah,

it's amazing.
Right?

there's, there's this cool chapel on Tuskegee University's
campus that was done by Paul Rudolph.
And he's got these angled colored like.
S Oculus is, these, these basically,these, these angled windows, square,
angled windows that are all colored andit's variety of different sizes and stuff.

(24:42):
And throughout the day, depending onthe sun angle or if it's overcast or
whatever, they aren't really illuminated.
And if you're in there and you'relucky enough to be in there, there's
this whole wall that just illuminatesin color and you're just like,

Whoa.

you're like, damn.
Like,

Yeah.

thinking of this anymore?

I have a, I have a question for you because you mentioned
it like, like, like you, I gottaget over to the, to the lobby.
Right.

Yeah.

And, I, all spaces don't
affect everybody the same.

Right.

so you.
I met other architects,especially with architecture,
say have kind of a sensitivity

right.

to this.
And
just curious what you thinkabout that because I don't know
that the general, I can't speakfor somebody else who's not me.
Right.
But the, the idea of that sensitivitybeing equal amongst everybody,

So

I
assume it's a spectrum.

it's, it probably is a spectrum and there's probably
people who are just like, eh,
nice room you know, nice finishes,
kind of cool.
But, so what's funny is that, orweird, so what was funny is when you
round, when I rounded the corner, therewas, another volunteer in there and
they were just kind of like waiting.

(26:03):
And there were, there was a, a, a groupin there and then they were waiting.
And before I got into the room,somebody was like, oh, wow, the light.
And I circled the, the corner, go intothe room in this, nice little old lady.
She's talking about the light qualityof the room and, the, the, that

(26:27):
particular volunteer, you know, tooktheir not speaking role, to to heart
and didn't really say anything.
And I was just like, well, and, but theywere like the light, but nobody looked up.
Nobody looked literally up to likeright above their head, which was
not really that far above their head

are like,

to see,

architects.

to see what is causing this light.
And I'm like, well, if you look upyou know, there's the, these fif
you know, 1500 you, 'cause it's inmy, it's in my little book here.

You have the

I do have the cheat sheet.
But it was, it was.
I, I went through, like the scriptand but I, I had already kind of
like learned the script ad lippedand all of that other stuff,
and, and they're justlike, that's fascinating.
And they started asking mequestions and I started like,
filling in some of the blanks.
And, of course they're justlike, start to the script.
Like there's no script in this room.

(27:19):
They're just asking questions.
And the pro, so the problem was,so like I was, I was at the end of
the tour and of course, they comeoutside, it's a nice sunny, brisk
day and like, well, you made it.
He made it to the end of the tour, andit was just like, just, little bit more
and we can let you go and roam free, andI just would crack the, sarcastic jokes

(27:43):
that I would, and so I would stay onscript, but then nobody else is around.
Nobody else is, waiting to comeout and all of this other stuff.
So, and they're all just sittingthere waiting like, are you done?
And, and even though I said,if you checked a bag, you can
go that way and get your bag.
And if you go that way, you know,there's a, a really nice gift shop set up
outside the courtyard and all the proce.

(28:04):
And, and this was again, ad-libbing too.
It's like, and all the proceeds goto, you know, the Frank Lloyd Wright
Foundation and help support, the mamaintenance of buildings like this.
I totally created a new plug forthem that nobody else was saying,
like, no, it wasn't, it wasn't onmy, my little cheat sheet here.
And it was just, it was just me,like, asking for support for a

(28:26):
organization that I do kind of agreewith and, and seeing how I, the way
that I, the reason that I learned aboutthis was because I am a member and they
were like, you know, hey, if you're inChicago and you're interested in this
tour, and then it said down at thebottom of the email and we're looking
for volunteers, I'm like, eh, why not?
Like, like,
sure, I'll drive the five hoursto go and volunteer for six

(28:49):
hours, for the day and stuff.
But

I.

I made it worth it.
And I made it worth it becausenot only did I have a blast,
actually, I had a blast.
I mean, we got to tour some houses that,you know, are all private homes that are
never really open to the public exceptfor, when they graciously kind of like,
let other people trips through their,through their houses for this tour.

(29:14):
And there was nine different ones.
And of course, unity Temple and I, Iapparently was blasphemous, they're just
like, oh, and don't forget Unity Temple.
I'm like, man, I've been toUnity Temple so much, I don't
need to see Unity Temple again.
And they're just like,she's like, how dare you?
And I'm just like, I was justlike, I, I, I, I literally
said, I've been there so much.

(29:35):
I could have, I couldprobably give the tour myself.
Because I have been there a lot.
I love this space.
I really do.
And in fact, so while I was sittingthere waiting for while I kind of like
saw this opportunity to go to the thereception hall and check out the space and

(29:55):
how the dappling light was, filtering intothe space and all of that other stuff.

project of his with Dappled

No, no, no, no.
While I was in, in the house after myshift when I, rushed in, I look outside.

Same

So, so this, I'm segueing into the next part.
So I look outside and I see a handfulof my students, you know, walking by.
So they had asked me,
I.
You know, we were talking a coupleweeks prior while we were in studio
and I was talking to them aboutgraduation and everything else.
One of the students was like,you know, hey Corbe, when are

(30:30):
we ever gonna do that tour?
That, you're always talkingabout like, the importance of
travel and, seeing architectureand experiencing architecture,
experiencing the genius, genius loci.
And though they didn't say it'cause nobody's, teaching them that.
They, I was just like, well, youknow, funny enough, I'm gonna be
in Chicago in a couple of weeks.
I'm gonna be doing this, Frank, I'mgonna be volunteering at this Frank

(30:52):
Lloyd thing, and if you guys areinterested, show up and I'll I'll give
you a tour around Oak Park and, thenwe can go and see some just some random
architecture throughout the city.
And.
It happened that not too far after that,we had a great lecture from, Billy Chen

(31:16):
and she happened to be talking aboutthe Obama Library and that is under
construction in downtown Chicago, not toofar from the university of Chicago campus.
And I'm like, well, we canput that on our itinerary.
I mean, here.
Here you are hearing a lecture from, oneof the architects of, this amazing place.

(31:38):
Let's go take a look at it.
It's, it's under construction.
Let's go take a look at it.
And it's, it's pretty far along so youknow, you can really get kind of like
an understanding of what's going on.
And so, we got an opportunity to do that.
We got an opportunity to basicallyjust walk around the the University
of Chicago campus got out and saw alittle bit of like, some really cool,
really elegantly designed brutalism.

(32:01):
I'm, I'm, I'm having this kindof interesting renaissance
with like brutalism.
It's like there's some really brutalbrutalism and then there's some really
beautifully elegant brutalism and in thatreally beautifully elegant brutalism.
Is just, you know, something to behold.
And this one was, this wasa, a campus building on the

(32:22):
University of Chicago's campus.
And I did not write it down because theydidn't have a sign on there because it is
an empty building that they're not using.
And it's just, it's sad to kind of see it.
And they were like, well,why aren't they using this?
And so it was, it was kind of fun.
We were so, we were, sowe were on the campus.
Right.
And I don't know if you know,anything about the campus, but if

(32:43):
you go onto the campus, you canalso go and see the Robbie House.
The Robbie House, the one that everybodytalks about is the piece of resistance
when it comes to the prairie style houses.
And, and so we, we get there and I knowit's already close, so, we're just like,
well, we'll just walk around the outside.

(33:03):
And I've always talked aboutone of the most amazing things
that I have noticed in its.
Particularly prevalent in every singleright house, right building, right.
Whatever that I have ever been in isthis acoustical phenomenon that occurs

(33:24):
in right buildings where when you,certain areas that are of, his compress
compression areas and depending onlike, where you're at with, next to
like a, a window or something like that.
And so,

surface.

so, I was like, all right, stand here.
They're not underneath the canopyto go into to the front door.
And I'm like, just start talking.
And they're like, okay, wellwhat, what do you want me to say?
I'm like, just whatever you wanna say.
Just talk, talk to yourself, you know,talk about, Hey, why is that Cormac
asking me to like talk while I'm walking?
And I'm like, walk towards the door.
And then they're like, youknow, they're like, okay.

(34:00):
I'm like, now, once you get tothis spot, start moving towards
the window, move towards the wall.
And they're like, what am I listening to?
You're like, what am I expecting to hear?
Oh, wait, what, what, what's going on?

Like a

it's just this, well, it's, and then it's this immediate kinda like
engulfing of the sound of, around and ofit's this complete like change in like the
pressure of the sound change in like thedynamics of the sound change in the way
that it's resonating around you and, andit, and it's literally is in every single

(34:36):
right building that I've ever been at.
And

Hmm.

I would love to say that he was conscious about this,
but I would also love to say thatbecause he was short and he designed
his buildings around his more or lessheight and stuff, that it made some
pretty interestingly compressed spaces.
And yes, we always talk aboutthat, you know, compression.
And release.
And even in his own home, you feltthat compression of release and all

(35:02):
of the volunteers were in there.
And I found a spot that Icould, I, I, was looking for.
And I, I found that spot.
And everybody's just, and I'mlike, just, I was like, have you,
you know, listened to the house?
And they're like, well,what are you talking about?
I'm like, come here.
And then I was like, just start talking.
Move closer to this wall.
Move closer to the wall.
Keep talking.
You're like, wait, whoa.

(35:23):
And it's just like everybody hasthis reaction of like, wait, what?
What's going on with my voice?

Yeah.

It's just, it's kind of fun to like, like treat people
to like this weird little discoverythat I had decades ago at Florida
Southern, college where this was thefirst time I'd ever experienced that.
Kind of like, acoustical, resonant change.
In architecture.
And I was just like, Iam so baffled by this.

(35:51):
And I'm like, and every time I wouldgo to a a right house, I would find it.
And I just, I was just like,all right, every time I'm going,

goal.

yeah.
Oh, a absolutely my goal.
And so, I, I constantly amalways sharing that with me.
So it was kind of fun.
So, so here we are at the Robhouse and, and I, I, I did that.
I'm like, well, you know, unfortunatelythe, Rob house is closed, so we're
probably gonna have to, I was like, if youwanna see this, we can come back tomorrow.
We'll, we'll hit the firsttour and, we'll, we'll do that.

(36:22):
And then as I'm walking the,the, the, the two girls, they're
like, Hey, there's a chain here.
I'm like, is the chain up?
Yeah.
I was like, it means that youdon't, you're not supposed to go
there, but I can step over it.
You don't wanna step over it.
I can step and they're already over it.
And they,

gosh.

they're already over it.
And so they go up the stairsto get to the terrace.
'cause this is the, the stairs toget off of the second floor terrace.
So they go up to the second floorterrace and they're, and so we're
sort of like quickly walking away.
We're like, I, we're not with thembecause immediate, immediately across,
immediately across the street, andwe're not talking about a very big
street, parked right on the corner,standing outside of the truck is a

(37:04):
University of Chicago security officer.
Completely not paying attention topeople, trespassing on the Roby house.
And so then, we're walking aroundand, and they're walking around and
they're walking inside the courtyardand all of these other things.
And I swear somebody's going to hearme and they're gonna blacklist me from
ever being able to visit the Rob house.
And I have yet to go into the Roby house.

(37:27):
I have always, I havebeen to the Roby house.

you're risking

Yeah, I have, I have, I've been in the Roby, I've been to
the Roby House multiple times, andI've still yet to go inside on a tour.
And so here's where I'mprobably gonna, never.
Be able to go in there because I'm,letting them know that I, I allowed
some students to, to be an E there.
So, and then they're, of coursethey hopped the wall and they, and

(37:52):
they get out and there's stuff and,
and so we're now standing at the backgate and they're just like, man, I
could, we could've just, like, youknow, pop the gate open and like, no,
we're not gonna pop the gate open.
And they're like,

Entitlement.

and so they're like, well, you know, we can climb over this.
And the next thing I know, the, the,the rock climber, which I was telling
him about you, I was just like, you,you need to meet Evan because, you
know, he's a rock climber and stuff.
That, he's like scaling the the.
The gate, and he's hanging off of likethe, the the, the, the lintel piece.

(38:26):
If you saw the, the photographs thatI, that I posted, and I'm like, really?
I'm not going to say any of theirnames so that they don't get,

the, the

I'll, I'll protect the guilty.
But, and then,

not a snitch.

then, then me and, and one of the other, he was just,
he was just standing near me.
He was just like, I'm notgetting involved with this.
He was, he was, he was trying to have,100% deniability that he was any of
the, the, the, the hooligans that were,breaking and entering into the old

don't want the wrath of the ghost of right either.
I mean, you really don't.

Yeah.
So, well, I think his ghost would beat Essin because that's where he died,
was the Talia.

Why, why?
Why do they have to bestrapped down to one location?

I don't know.
I, I don't know.
I, I don't know how guests work,

I dunno how they work either.

but it was, it was kind of cool because,
so in a way,
you know, what we did was try to,like, for me it was somewhat reliving
the very first architectural tourthat I ever took, which was, my
professor taking us to Chicago.
Chicago that he knew very wellbecause that's where he grew up.
That's where he went to school.

(39:40):
He went to school at IIT, heworked, he studied under or
he under studied under me.
He worked under me.
He worked like he, he was a disciple.
He, what was interesting is Iwas, I looked, I looked him up and
there's not much on, my professor.

(40:00):
But there is some informationat the ME Vanderau Foundation.
Or society, I dunno if it's a society orfoundation, but it's, it's some group that
basically, keeps tabs of all of me's work.
And do you know that Meesewas his actual last name?

(40:23):
His, his, his birth lastname was actually Meese.
It was Lu,

okay.

it was Ludwig, Michael Meese, something like that.
And he dropped.

of architects back then.
Changed up their names, right?
I mean,

Yeah,

was another

he felt like it was too, his name was too pedestrian.
So he went, you know, Ludwig
Lu Ludwig Meese, and
I think Ro was his mother's maiden name,or Roa, was his mother's maiden name.
And then he added the Vander,but he couldn't do it.

designer man.

He, he couldn't from what I remember from the book, 'cause
he couldn't he didn't want do it.
The German way van, derro or somethinglike that, because that meant royalty.
And so he, and since his mother wasDutch, he went with the Dutch Vander Rowa.
And if you, and, and honestly, if,if you, you just turned me on to the

(41:17):
podcast of interviewing Bjork ENGs.
And if you listen to the way thathe says his name, it, it definitely
sounds as if, it sounds moreregal than, than Americans say it.

Yeah.

know, far more regal.
But so, so, with with that connection,I kind of wanted to, take them to
see some meese.
We weren't too far.
So we went to the Obama library, drove,you know, kinda like drove circles around
it to take a look at it from, a varietyof different perspectives and stuff.

(41:53):
Really was no reason to kinda getout because like the sidewalks were
closed and all of that other stuff.
And you kind of like, we're in anarea where, like we we're fine with
just kinda like driving around it.
And so then they're like, allright, you know, let's go to IIT.
Let's go to IllinoisInstitute of Technology.
Let's go look at some me vanderau.
And we parked next to a buildingthat I remember seeing on the

(42:15):
cover of Architectural Record.
And I was like, Ooh, ooh, I remember that.
It is kind of fun because it was like,it's this one kind of like, arcing
building and the train is right nextto it and the train goes through
another building that's right nextto it, and it's just kind of cool.
And then of course, everybodywas just like, I wonder how
they keep the noise down.
That would drive me insane.
You know?
So they were like fixated on it.

(42:35):
I'm like, you know, these areactually interesting questions
that you should be asking.
And especially as, young architectssaid, if you wanna do something creative
like that, you gotta think through thepro the problems that, the constraints
of all of these different things.
So it was kind of cool to see themasking some interesting questions.
So then.
We get to Crown Hall, we walk upthe steps of Crown Hall, I snap

(42:55):
off a, customary picture of like,tourist picture of them, visiting me.
And then, realize that people are coming,going through, these locked doors, door
opens up somebody comes out and shut

in there.

and it, and it shuts.
And they're just like, man, you know,we missed this opportunity to go inside.
And so they just kinda like startedlike, shaking the door and then somebody
walked over and just let 'em in.
Didn't even like askthem, Yos, can I help you?
It's just like they were having theirgraduation, which was kind of cool
because, you know, here I am with abunch of recent graduates and they had

(43:28):
and they were just talking about, itwould be interesting to see what, as we
were kinda like driving over there it.
It would be interesting to see how oureducation kind of compares to these
big city schools and things like that.
'Cause I don't know, I guess you getkind of like this, whether or not, you
know, do you stack up, do you measureup to other architecture schools?

(43:51):
And so, they're going through andthey're looking at all of these
different, projects and they'rewonderful projects, but, and they were
sort of feeling a little like, man,I, I don't know if we spend, a lot of
time on design when we're doing this.
And, and so, we're looking atthe, the, the fruits of the
labor of these IIT students work.
They've got probably about, fouror five boards on there with a

(44:15):
model and it's all about design.
And, and you know, they're like,well look how well this is designed.
And I'm like, alright, let me justnip this in the butter right now.
Yes, they are.
It's some beautiful work and youknow, you guys do some, pretty
fantastic work yourself, but don'tcompare apples to apples because your

(44:35):
projects, your projects are completelydifferent in the way that you do these
projects than the way that they are.
They've spent all of theirtime on the design and on the
presentation of the design.
You have spent the same amountof time doing a site analysis,
solar analysis, wind analysis.
You've done, you've done massing modelsand you've run 'em through the cove tools.

(44:58):
You have designed a mechanical system.
You have designed a structural system.
You've actually done.
Detailing of that structuralsystem and that mechanical system.
You have integrated itall into the design.
You've integrated it into the site.
You have given us all of these things.
You have a, you usually have likearound 40 slides when you're presenting,

(45:18):
and then you have all of theseboards that you have up on the wall.
So don't you dare like, feel likeyou are diminishing, like you, like
you aren't stacking up to them.
They had one challenge andthey had one expectation.
You had a challenge andyou had an expectation.
You had, you may not feel like yourdesign stacked up, but you had so much

(45:42):
else that you had it to wor, had toworry about the same amount of time,
and in fact in some cases, less amountof time to integrate everything.
So your understanding of howto, how complex the whole.
Like architectural process is, andthe integration with all of the
other things that we have to doand how that affects the design.

(46:04):
You don't see it in these, and I was justlike, so please do not compare yourself
to them and think that you are notstacking up to them, because I honestly
think that you are far surpassed farpast them in your understanding about
what you, the tools that you are goingto need to survive in architecture.

(46:27):
The questions that you're gonnaneed to ask, the implications of
everybody else's work on your work.
I don't see it in these projects.
I see beautifully rendered, beautifullyarticulated, but if you like, you know,
punch if you wanted to like, look reallyhard at it and you could punch holes and
like, does it meet, I mean they, they,our students are doing code reviews

(46:50):
and they're doing all of these otherthings and it's, it's amazing what they
are actually learning to become, youknow, practitioners you know, practicing
architects and understanding all of those.
And so it was kind of fun to kind ofhonestly see them, looking at other,
like looking through their lens atlooking at other students and thinking

(47:14):
that, are we as good as they are?
When in fact they'reas good if not better.
And so, I, I, I was, anyway, so then thenext day we got to see a bunch of Meese
and everything else, and then we weregetting ready to Meese and a few others.
We, we just kinda like drove around.

(47:35):
My my professor was a projectmanager on when he worked for, after
me had passed and he was workingfor SOM 'cause that's where you
go when you work for Meese, right?
You go to SOM.

Mm-hmm.

and so, you know, he worked on the Hancock building and it was
interesting that my, one of the students,he had said that his, mother had met his,
stepfather at the John Hancock building.
And so, it was kind of funbecause now you're like connecting
everything else because I.
It, I, I've started to kind of like preachthis, you know, when we talk about like,

(48:13):
the value of a architects, and they'relike, well, what do architects do?
And then everybody, kind of trivialize,oh, architects just, they design buildings
or they just do this and they, whatever.
And then I look at the more, the,my, my touchy feely, side of things
when I'm talking about it, and Italk about us creating memories.

(48:34):
Right.
And you, you've heard me talk about that.
Right.
So I don't have to, go through it again.
But, but, and, and so, and that, andthat's what I, and, and that was.
That when he told me the storyof his mother and his stepfather
meeting at the Hancock building.
You know, that's what I mean when I talkabout these, that we create memories

(48:56):
that we may not know that we're creatingthese memories, but memories are
happening, memories are being affected.
People's, like their experiences,their lives are all being expect, being
influenced by, their surroundings,their environment, their, their
place, and and so like their memorynow, their memory is going to be,

(49:17):
oh, you remember when I, we met atthe John Hancock building in Chicago.
Yeah.
And now I could say that, myprofessor was one of the people
who helped, work on that building.
And so he may never knowthat that story happened,
but that story is happeningbecause of him and, the people

(49:38):
that helped put it together.
So.

That's cool.

Anyway.

The next generation man, I mean that it's

yeah,

there's this, there's this,
kind of potential

yeah,

that you see and that you're acting on,

yeah,

I know a lot of architects aren't doing that,

yeah,

yeah.

yeah.
I mean, I, I wish that I had notlost touch with this professor and I.
I've heard that he's still around andI was given some, you know, points
of contact to reach out to him.
And I have, and I kind of like wax poeticabout the, the effect that he had on my
career and, my sensibilities of what, youknow, I find important in architecture and

(50:23):
I just hope that I'm doing him justice by,what he taught me, that I'm able to teach
somebody else and just share it with them.
And, it, it,
just so happened that I was likescrolling through Instagram and
hit Renzo piano, talking aboutthe importance of, of travel.
But he was specifically talking aboutwhen architects travel, they are not

(50:45):
tourists, you know, they were observers.
And, and, and then, and then the thepodcast that you had sent me to listen to,
which was, this Bjork Engels interview by.

Rick,

Rick Rick Rubin.
Wow.
I, I literally was about tosay Rick Ri, but Rick Rubin.
You know, and when Bjork was talkingabout he feels like architects
are investigative journalists.

Mm-hmm.

I agree with that.
I agree that, that, we are.
For us to do our job, right.
We need to find out what it is, eitherabout the place or the person, or
whatever it is that we're designing for.
We don't have to be fullyin depth into, okay.

(51:36):
Corak is now going to, design a buildingfor, neuroscience research, but now I'm
gonna suit up and do some brain surgery.
Not that, but at least under Yeah.
But at least understandingabout what they do, how they
do it, how they work, you know?
Like, how does a room set upthat is the right room for them?

(52:00):
Like, where does the, wheredoes all of their equipment go?
Where does all of this stuff?
And understanding that, and that'sthat investigative journalism kind
of aspect of architecture that, youknow, we're just, we learn enough
about every little thing that weneed to, to make the building right.
To work Right.
For the people.

that, there's that layer of it, and then there's
like that, what makes it special?

Right?
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah,

of where we started

yeah,

not every space.

Nope.

definitely not every space,

no.

but it's, you
gotta pick and choose theright spots to do that thing.

Yeah,

And hopefully you have the skills to, to do it
because

Yeah.

what is that memory making part of it, right?

yeah.

there's like, yeah, it's gotta fire on all these cylinders.
It's gotta do the thing.
It's gotta function the way it's
supposed to.
It's

yeah.

it's gotta
flow, it's gotta respond, it'sgotta do all those things.
And man, if you got thatextra layer of cream

Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

it's like, whoa, that's, that's architecture.

You, you and I are about to hit the road for
the a i a convention again.
So sh shout out to anybody whomight be listening to this.
Hopefully it gets publishedbefore the, the that if it
doesn't, sorry we missed you.
But but I'm looking forward to whatyou and I typically do, which is go

(53:27):
out and explore the place of wherethese where all of these things are
held, and really kind of explorethe architecture, explore the space.
Dare I say, explore thegenius, genius loci.
But, and, and, and I'm really kindof looking forward to that because
have I been to Bo to Boston before?

(53:49):
Yes.
Have I been to Boston with thekind of like lens that I have now?
Like I, I was an architect the lasttime I went to Boston, but I think
my sensibilities have changed.
I think the older I get,the more experience I get.
I am looking to constantlykeep reconnecting myself with

(54:14):
the meaning of why I do this.
And as you and I have talked, weare always connecting, you know,
it's, it's through the travel,it's through experiencing, good
buildings and stuff like that.
So I'm really looking forward to that.
And

too.

I know for a fact that we are going to get some
mileage out of some of the, someof the recording opportunities that
we're gonna get out of this trip.

Wear your good shoes.
People.

Wear your good shoes because you're gonna need them.
Because if you meet up withus, gonna walk your feet off.

We will be walking.

Actually,
I will walk my feet off.
Y'all will be probably perfectly fine.

Yeah.

Yeah.
I was so worried when I was in Chicago.
Like, here I am,
Like many decades older than allof these kids that I'm walking
around with and I'm like, yeah,I'm gonna just, drop somewhere.
But held, held,

Hopefully they

held, held.
Help.
I, I held up, well, I held up well.
It wasn't I took them to, took them tolike the, the zoo and we saw, studio
gangs, little pavilion at the zoo.
And because I had shown it to them,because they did some mass timber
projects and I was showing them how.
How you can elegantly terminatelike, mass timber into like the

(55:33):
base of your column or whatever.
And, and you know, they into this likesteel turn buckle kind of thing that they
had their or, or kind of like, this, thismounting plate and it was such as elegant
kind of like transition of the ground.
And I
showed it to them numerous times.
And so I happened to, be out andabout and you know, it's just
like, hey, when you guys get going,maybe we can meet up at the zoo.

(55:55):
And I sent 'em a picture of that thingand they're like, I've gotta see that.
And so, I kind of waited around for themand waited around for them and waited
around for them because they are collegestudents and have no concept of time.
But then when we finally got there it waskind of fun because then there was other.
Architectural graduates that were usingthat as a backdrop for their posing

(56:19):
with their cap and gowns, you know,with this, because it, it, if it, if
you look at the pictures that I postedon Instagram of the, of the Weekend
trip, it frames out the backdrop.
The city is the backdrop that thislittle pavilion frames out and is just
a, it, it's a wonderful little space

Yeah,

that embodies a lot of character.

very cool.

But anyway, yeah,

bound.

Boston Bound can't wait.

See you there.

Yep.

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