March 18, 2022 • 23 mins
Mariah Meyer LeFeber is a PhD candidate, a dance movement therapist, a licensed professional counselor, and a counselor educator. Mariah shares the challenges and surprises of teaching future counselors during the pandemic.
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Kristi (00:05):
I'm excited to introduce to you my first guest for the
podcast, my good friend, Mariah.
Mariah Meyer LeFeber as a PhDcandidate, a dance movement
therapist, a licensedprofessional counselor, and a
counselor educator.
A native Midwesterner, shegraduated with a degree in dance
and psychology and then went onto earn her master's degree in
(00:26):
dance/ movement therapy andcounseling.
She's currently a PhD candidatein leadership with a specialty
in counselor education andsupervision at the University of
the Cumberlands.
Mariah has worked extensively inthe field of dance movement
therapy, serving groups andindividuals, presenting
internationally and supervisingdance movement therapists.
(00:47):
Mariah currently teaches in themaster's of arts in counseling
program at Multnomah universityin Portland, Oregon.
I asked Mariah to join me indiscussing how the pandemic has
impacted higher education.
Most specifically how she is aneducator is preparing counselors
and training to join the fieldat this difficult time in our
world.
Well, thank you for joining metoday as my first guest; I'm
(01:10):
really excited to talk to you.
I've really been interested inthis topic the idea of how are
new and emerging in thepandemic?
I can't imagine starting mycareer right now while things
are so chaotic.
Mariah LeFeber (01:27):
I can't either.
the idea that some of thestudents that I work with are
graduating, having primarilyonly worked via tele-health.
Kristi (01:37):
Right.
Mariah LeFeber (01:38):
It is mind-boggling to me as someone
who tele-health did not evenexist when I went through my
counselor training program,
Kristi (01:46):
That's right.
Would they even practice withother students live?
Mariah LeFeber (01:50):
I think it depends on the program.
I think some program's classesare also fully online.
The program that I teach in,yes.
They have been in person withpeers.
So they have had that body tobody experience in the classroom
and with peers, but a lot ofthem, their internships have
been fully virtual.
Kristi (02:10):
I had not even thought of that.
So they have not sat in the sameroom with a client.
Mariah LeFeber (02:15):
Yeah.
So how do you teach aboutsitting with a client over zoom?
Kristi (02:19):
Well, how do you?
What have you had to adjust inyour teaching?
Mariah LeFeber (02:23):
Yeah, that's an interesting question.
The program that I teachfull-time in pre COVID,
sometimes in my house, we jokeand we call it old world, which
was a funnier then than it isnow.
I feel like two plus yearslater.
But it was a fully on-groundprogram, so everything we were
doing with classes in person.
And simultaneously I've beenworking on this doctorate in
(02:47):
counselor education andsupervision in a fully online
program.
And so I was having thisexperience personally of
understanding online pedagogyand being online and even TA-ing
through that experience.
And yet, all my work livedexperience was on ground, so
when we had to pivot so fast, wehad three days and our classes
(03:09):
were online and I felt a realthankfulness and advantage over
a lot of my other colleagues atthe university, because I was
like,"Oh great; I got this."
Kristi (03:18):
Yeah.
Mariah LeFeber (03:19):
how to translate and can we do this in breakout
rooms?
And certainly it was difficult,but I felt like I had a
framework for it.
Kristi (03:26):
Yes.
Mariah LeFeber (03:27):
For a lot of people, I don't know that was
the case.
It's really been like a messyhybrid, a messy flexibility.
Kristi (03:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
Mariah LeFeber (03:37):
It, it feels like messy flexibility because
like we've had to be flexibleand yet, it be exhausting to, to
be like, okay, Who's onlinetoday?
Who's in person?
How am I accommodating
Kristi (03:49):
Yeah,
Mariah LeFeber (03:49):
styles in class?
And so it's been lot of justthat then I think something
that's interesting is that Ithink before the pandemic, I
would have like, Nope notteaching in an online program
because I really, my backgroundis dance therapy.
Kristi (04:06):
Right.
Mariah LeFeber (04:06):
I want to be in the room with people.
I want our bodies to be togetherand moving together.
So for me, it's challenged me tothink outside the box a little
bit.
Kristi (04:16):
Because in counseling, the whole foundation of it is,
being across from the person andthat whole body language and
interaction of being in the roomtogether.
Teaching somebody how to do thatand to use those same skills
through screen it's differentendeavor.
Mariah LeFeber (04:35):
It's a very different endeavor.
I think my students know thatbecause my background is dance
therapy.
Sometimes I laugh because Ithink about my training.
We often had class in a dancestudio with big, large pillows,
and we sat on the floor.
There were no tables, like itwas a very different kind of
experience.
And now that I'm in this moretraditional counseling program,
(04:56):
they're used to me saying I cantell you're tired, everybody
stand up.
We're moving around for a littlebit before we get the next
thing.
I think for awhile at thebeginning of COVID that I sort
of shut that down a little bitcause I just was like, how do I
make this transition?
And then once I figure it outoh, this is we're in this for
awhile.
I started to be like, well, Igot to do it online.
(05:17):
And I'd be like, all right,stand up wherever you're at,
push your chair away.
We're going to move for a minutebefore we come back to the
screens.
It has been like, actually, wecan do this and we just have to
figure out a a new path.
Kristi (05:29):
It's you lose one of your senses, You have to like,
have your other senses developmore fully in order to really
have that experience.
And we've kind of as therapistand teachers and supervisors
have lost of our senses, whichis being in the same room
together.
Mariah LeFeber (05:46):
Yeah.
Kristi (05:46):
And so now we've had to figure out how do you adjust to
that?
So you can still sense what'sgoing on.
Mariah LeFeber (05:53):
Yeah, the sensing.
And I think a theme that I thinkhas come up a lot with people
I've spoken to is the missing ofthe reciprocal energy, I'm going
to call it because there is thissense of two bodies being in the
same space where you justphysically it's like that brain
(06:13):
to brain, body to bodyconnection that is just
different when you're inliterally different physical
spaces.
And when you're not together andsensing that with all the five
senses.
So I do miss that.
I teach an undergrad psychologyclass and I forgot the energy of
all being there in that learningand then we were, and I was
(06:35):
like, oh,
Kristi (06:36):
oh, just drink it in.
Mariah LeFeber (06:38):
Yeah, to just be together and in COVID I had
transitioned some of theirassignments to discussion board
assignments, and so then lastfall, I said, well, here's the
deal if discussion board worksfor you?
That's great.
And if you're a verbalprocessor, we're going to meet
once a week and have a coffeediscussion.
And can choose what works foryou.
Kristi (06:58):
Nice.
Mariah LeFeber (06:58):
And I was amazed that over half the class, every
week came to the discussiongroup because I think that they
were just craving that
Kristi (07:06):
Yeah.
Mariah LeFeber (07:06):
feeding off of each other.
And that, that being together,
Kristi (07:10):
Yeah.
Mariah LeFeber (07:11):
it's do you have symptoms?
Where are your masks?
Yeah.
It's not like without effort,but the effort felt so worth it.
Kristi (07:17):
That makes me think about this now we've been two
years so you've had entirecohorts now who have just been
been online.
Mariah LeFeber (07:26):
Yeah.
Kristi (07:27):
notice anything different about the motivation
of people coming into the fieldor the, I don't know.
What they're looking forward towhat they're grappling with
anything different about thesecohorts.
Mariah LeFeber (07:41):
That's a really good question.
I mean, I will say that ourcohort that started during the
pandemic was just smaller thannormally.
And I think that's part of justeverybody's dealing with all
these transitions.
I think that think that wasreflected around the nation in
higher education.
That was part of what happened.
And now this season we have alarger cohort and I think also
(08:02):
people are transitioning toonline.
People are just learningdifferently.
Kristi (08:05):
Yeah,
Mariah LeFeber (08:06):
In the particular program that I teach
in it already attracts a lot ofsecond career students.
We have night classes once aweek, it's made to be a format
that's accessible.
So it's very common for me tohave a lot of my students who
have a lot more life experiencethan I do.
They're older than me andthey're coming to this as a
second career.
(08:27):
And so actually for that, hasn'tshifted a lot for my particular
program because we already havethis sort of niche of attracting
people who were coming in justat all different life stages.
Because of that access of theonline classes that there's
people pursuing it, who maybecouldn't have before, which I do
(08:47):
see as a real perk, the onlineaccessibility is oh, I couldn't
move or make an in-personcohort, but I can do this.
Kristi (08:57):
That is a good thing t hat's come of this.
So the thing I keep thinkingabout is how do you prepare
these students for beingcounselors in a pandemic?
Because right now we are seeingburnout from counselors along
with all the other helpingprofessions.
(09:18):
We want them to have longevity.
We don't want them to get outthere and burn out within a
couple of years.
how has that part of yourteaching changed?
How are you trying to preparepeople for the mental health
struggle of being a mentalhealth caregiver?
Mariah LeFeber (09:34):
For me, the question is not just, how do we
teach students to do this?
It's like, how do we learn to dothis ourselves?
I think it's layered questionbecause we haven't been able to
say, well, first how to do it.
We just jump into the deep end,right.
And be like, how do we holdthis?
How do we hold that we're goingthrough the same things as our
clients.
(09:55):
And not let ourcountertransference just totally
take over because we're like,yeah, we're living in a pandemic
too.
For me, honestly, a lot of ithas really honest modeling and I
that to my supervisees and Ithink that to students, but in,
in the therapeutic relationshipwe can't air our own stuff and
(10:15):
our own struggles.
And so really making thesupervision space and class
space, a space to really getinto talking about, what does it
feel like to be living the samereality as your clients?
And the self care piece becomesreally tangible.
I think it has to becometangible because otherwise the
(10:35):
burnout is so real.
So some is like adjusting mypedagogy.
Like literally, how do we doself-care in the class?
How do we start with fiveminutes of grounding meditation
or a little bit of movement, issomething with my theoretical
orientation I would have doneanyway.
But I think that it reallybecame clear.
(10:57):
we need this.
Sit in this space together namewhere we're at today.
And then we can go into learningcontent.
Kristi (11:04):
right.
It's not a luxury anymore,'it'sessential..
right.
Mariah LeFeber (11:08):
It's if you want to do this work, you have to
figure out what it looks likefor you to care for yourself.
So I think that this generationof counselors is going to
understand self care sooner anddeeper.
Kristi (11:22):
hope so.
Mariah LeFeber (11:22):
I hope so too because they it's just necessity
because of the climate rightnow.
Kristi (11:29):
Yeah.
A lot of times when people hearself they think a bubble bath,
you, something like that.
When you think self care, likein the deeper sense of self
care, What do you think for you?
And we can, obviously, this isgoing to be different for
different people, but what'sthat real piece?
What keeps you going?
Mariah LeFeber (11:50):
Yeah, I think just, just came to mind as you
were asking the question, but Ithink just for myself, it's like
what feeds your soul?
Cause I like to joke abouthashtag self care, and that's
Kristi (12:02):
got
Mariah LeFeber (12:02):
myself a fancy coffee, nice love it.
Took yes.
Whatever is.
But like those things are greatand I'm not dissing any of that,
yet it has become such acultural thing, to talk about
that..
And me, it's what feeds my souland makes me feel more whole as
a person.
And again, this is like my owntendency, but what makes me feel
(12:24):
connected to my body, to myinternal experience, connected
to my own emotions, my own innerexperience and self care for me
is carving out the space to saywhere I connect to me or maybe I
connect to myself by connectingto others.
And that like real deep soulwork and connection.
Kristi (12:47):
yeah, absolutely.
And piece others.
Feels more essential now.
Yeah.
So for generation of therapists?
You mentioned find self caremaybe sooner than
Mariah LeFeber (13:04):
rest of
Kristi (13:04):
us did.
I have anxiety for them if Ithink about it too much, just
because, or concern I should sayfor them, because they're coming
into the field during a reallyhard time.
What is your hope for wherethey're going to land?.
Mariah LeFeber (13:20):
Yeah, that's really hard, there's so much
comes to mind and think thatthey would be able to sort of
figure out.
And none of us arrive, we neverarrive at understanding
Kristi (13:30):
care
Mariah LeFeber (13:31):
and avoiding burnout, and all things, they
would feel really comfortable inthe journey of like always
asking how can I care for myselfin order to care for others?
And that would be, just a wayfor them to engage.
I think that a hope and also anecessity is that they'll have a
different kind of flexibility.
(13:53):
Than other generations ofcounselors.
I that there hasn't been choicein that.
And yet maybe that can bereframed as a kind of gift that,
that they will have that justinherent ability, because
they've had to say,
Kristi (14:08):
well
Mariah LeFeber (14:08):
turns out when you have symptoms we can meet on
tele-health, like just there's alot of beauty and flexibility in
that.
think.
that I always for my counselors,pandemic or not.
It's just that they real feelcomfortable in the messy area.
Cause I think we.
We, I also personally, I think alot about the danger of binary
(14:30):
thinking It black and whitethinking in a CBT orientation or
anything, but just like thingsare one way or things or the
other.
And so much culture, in theworld right now is challenging
us about the danger of this kindof binary thinking.
That, you know, that there'sthis way or there's that way.
(14:51):
And there's not this complexmiddle.
I have a colleague who's verydear to me who always says,
well, the answer to most ethicalquestions is it's complex and it
depends.
And I think, answer to mostquestions and I hope some
resilience and ability to be inthat gray area is born out of
(15:13):
this very whoa time.
Yeah to learn and learn how tobe counselors.
And so really comfort with thediscomfort of that not knowing.
Kristi (15:25):
And so being able to help this next generation find
comfort in that.
Mariah LeFeber (15:30):
Yeah.
Kristi (15:31):
man, that's a, yeah, that's a gift.
Mariah LeFeber (15:33):
Yeah.
And a challenge.
Right.
Like sometimes I just wantsomebody to be like, I know when
the pandemic will end, give me atimeline and answer or whatever,
and we have to learn how to liveand find care for ourselves in
that unknowing.
Kristi (15:48):
Yeah.
That's probably good for ourfield anyway.
Right.
Because just because mentalhealth is fairly ambiguous,
Mariah LeFeber (15:57):
Yes.
Kristi (15:57):
of ways.
And so just to develop moreflexibility of thinking and
resiliency around trying newthings and being able to stand
back up, right.
That is a great thing to wishfor the next generation of
therapists is to be able tobounce back.
To able come back when thingshave been hard.
Mariah LeFeber (16:20):
And time will tell, right?
We don't really know yet,
Kristi (16:23):
oh, it's going to be so interesting to see.
In all areas of how this hasaffected our children, we're
seeing churches are having bigimpacts, through the pandemic.
And, how is this going to impactcounseling we move So in
general, in, as you look at thecounseling field, what do you
(16:44):
think about things that thisfield needs to learn to adjust
to or learn to look at with anew lens?
Where do we need some bigadjustments in our view?
Mariah LeFeber (16:57):
Yeah, well, I think the one thing that has
adjusted that I'm curious to seeabout how it sustains is people
are talking about mental healthmore than they did before the
pandemic.
Kristi (17:09):
Yes.
Mariah LeFeber (17:10):
They're talking about the importance of mental
health, about the importance ofmental health workers, and so I
think that there's a lot ofgreatness about the fact that.
Through our pain through oursuffering.
So that's not great but throughthis collective pain that we've
encountered, we are talking moreabout taking care of ourselves
and taking care
Kristi (17:30):
Uh,
Mariah LeFeber (17:31):
And and I think that is.
That's something that has comeout of it that I hope sticks.
I think that's like my hope andmy fear all in, at the same
time, like we've noticed, we'veseen like this matters and then
like, how does it pan out?
Does insurance start to, valuemental health and pay people
(17:52):
what they're worth to do work ordo we start to support employees
to, to get their mental healthcare needs taking.
Health care givers and tosupport their own mental health.
So I think there's anopportunity there because we've
really seen it highlighted whatthe need is.
And now we have to see whathappens with that opportunity.
If it changes the face of how welook at this for, for the
(18:15):
long-term or if we go back tohow we thought about it in old
world, or just how it shifts.
Kristi (18:22):
Yeah, the next generation of people the and
young adults of our culture,we're already, I think,
Mariah LeFeber (18:29):
Yes,
Kristi (18:30):
more open
Mariah LeFeber (18:31):
right?
Kristi (18:32):
about mental health.
So hopefully that is a trendthat will,
Mariah LeFeber (18:35):
Yeah.
Kristi (18:35):
learning from them and we'll continue to move forward.
Now we are, our field isunderstaffed, right?
There's just, there's not enoughmental health workers out there.
I don't know if you're a part ofthis conversation or process at
all being in your program, buthow do we recruit more quality
(18:59):
mental health practitioners intoour field?
Mariah LeFeber (19:03):
That it's complex and it depends.
Kristi (19:05):
Ah, good answer.
Mariah LeFeber (19:07):
one thing that's coming to my mind is that one
really difficult thing is thatit's important that counseling
programs are very comprehensive.
It's like what an honor and whata charge to be guiding another
individual's experience of howthey see the world, through,
(19:27):
through mental health practice.
And so I think it's sonecessary.
Like we often talk about in theprogram I teach in yeah, but we
need that.
We need that class to be threecredits too.
And we need that class to bemore credits and there's just
not enough, so see how muchthere is to learn and to know
about the human experience.
So on one hand, it's soimportant to have that in-depth
(19:50):
rich training.
And on the other hand, likethat's really hard.
It's really expensive to havethat in-depth of a training it's
really it's really expensive.
It's really tying, you have todo these clinical internships,
which thank goodness we have todo clinical internships, but.
Kristi (20:03):
Yeah.
Mariah LeFeber (20:04):
What have you have to support a family or what
have you, there's a certainamount of access in that and
being able to this education.
Those are like two verydifferent things to hold.
Like we need to have thiscomprehensive training and yet
who's able to get of training sothey can do this
Kristi (20:22):
Exactly.
Mariah LeFeber (20:23):
work.
And then there's allconversation of yeah.
And then representation.
Right.
Because if we don't see peoplelike us represented in the
field, what makes us think thatit's something that is for us.
Those are what I think theissues are.
And I don't think I have anyanswers,
Kristi (20:39):
Yeah.
Mariah LeFeber (20:40):
but I think that some, sometimes online learning
is becoming an answer to thatbecause it's more accessible and
maybe more affordable.
And I think that.
I would love to see, in the sameway as.
that like schools are able togive people like full full
scholarships to get, to go toschool.
That's just not as common in thecounseling world that people are
(21:02):
able to get funded, to do thelearning and do the schooling
they need to do the work.
Kristi (21:07):
I should have looked this up before I mentioned this,
but there was some legislationgoing through in Oregon.
Where they were trying to havefunding for supervision, for
childcare.
So somebody can go to classesand just this kind of holistic
view, because it's not, like yousaid, it's not just can I afford
the classes.
(21:28):
It's
Mariah LeFeber (21:28):
Yeah.
Kristi (21:28):
to take time off of work to do this?
Can I get childcare to do
Mariah LeFeber (21:32):
Yeah.
Who's going to take care of mykids when I go to night class
who, you know so much that'sinvolved in that.
So I guess there's so manybarriers, anything that we can
do to help increase access.
I think because we do, we needmore mental health clinicians.
So how do we make that possible?
Kristi (21:49):
Do you guys talk about advocacy at the masters level?
As far as helping legislationget looked at.
Mariah LeFeber (21:55):
Well, I get to teach the advocacy class in our,
program, which is actually not aCACREP requirement to learn
about advocacy, but you don'thave to have a specific advocacy
class, but I loved likedeveloping it and teaching it.
And actually one thing that I dowith my classes, I bring in
someone who works for a localnonprofit, who does full-time
advocacy work at our statelegislator in Salem.
(22:19):
And we talk about so we talkabout.
What does it mean to advocatefor public policy?
And he talks about how can youwrite letters?
How can you be involved in this?
And we also talk about anadvocacy.
I'm starting to, like geek out,but like the levels of advocacy,
right?
Sometimes we're advocating,we're personally, sometimes
we're advocating the communityor the system.
Sometimes we're advocating at amore policy level and most of
(22:41):
the time, because we're human,we can't do all of those things
simultaneously, but can we usethis advocacy lens to to frame
out what we're doing.
Kristi (22:51):
So important such important work.
Mariah LeFeber (22:53):
yeah.
Kristi (22:54):
Well, Mariah, I really appreciate your time and I love
this conversation.
I do think about this nextgeneration coming up a lot and
just have a lot of concern andhope for them.
I just want them to, to justfind joy and success, and peace
as they enter this field.
And so I think about you andothers who are charged now with
(23:18):
helping train them and teachthem and what a joy and a burden
that is right now, especially.
So thank you for the work youdo.
and thank you for joining withme today.
It was a great conversation.
Mariah LeFeber (23:30):
I think it's a great idea.
Kristi White (23:33):
And I have to ask.
"Are your notes finished yet?"
I'm excited to introduce to you my first guest for the
podcast, my good friend, Mariah.
Mariah Meyer LeFeber as a PhDcandidate, a dance movement
therapist, a licensedprofessional counselor, and a
counselor educator.
A native Midwesterner, shegraduated with a degree in dance
and psychology and then went onto earn her master's degree in
(00:26):
dance/ movement therapy andcounseling.
She's currently a PhD candidatein leadership with a specialty
in counselor education andsupervision at the University of
the Cumberlands.
Mariah has worked extensively inthe field of dance movement
therapy, serving groups andindividuals, presenting
internationally and supervisingdance movement therapists.
(00:47):
Mariah currently teaches in themaster's of arts in counseling
program at Multnomah universityin Portland, Oregon.
I asked Mariah to join me indiscussing how the pandemic has
impacted higher education.
Most specifically how she is aneducator is preparing counselors
and training to join the fieldat this difficult time in our
world.
Well, thank you for joining metoday as my first guest; I'm
(01:10):
really excited to talk to you.
I've really been interested inthis topic the idea of how are
new and emerging in thepandemic?
I can't imagine starting mycareer right now while things
are so chaotic.
Mariah LeFeber (01:27):
I can't either.
the idea that some of thestudents that I work with are
graduating, having primarilyonly worked via tele-health.
Kristi (01:37):
Right.
Mariah LeFeber (01:38):
It is mind-boggling to me as someone
who tele-health did not evenexist when I went through my
counselor training program,
Kristi (01:46):
That's right.
Would they even practice withother students live?
Mariah LeFeber (01:50):
I think it depends on the program.
I think some program's classesare also fully online.
The program that I teach in,yes.
They have been in person withpeers.
So they have had that body tobody experience in the classroom
and with peers, but a lot ofthem, their internships have
been fully virtual.
Kristi (02:10):
I had not even thought of that.
So they have not sat in the sameroom with a client.
Mariah LeFeber (02:15):
Yeah.
So how do you teach aboutsitting with a client over zoom?
Kristi (02:19):
Well, how do you?
What have you had to adjust inyour teaching?
Mariah LeFeber (02:23):
Yeah, that's an interesting question.
The program that I teachfull-time in pre COVID,
sometimes in my house, we jokeand we call it old world, which
was a funnier then than it isnow.
I feel like two plus yearslater.
But it was a fully on-groundprogram, so everything we were
doing with classes in person.
And simultaneously I've beenworking on this doctorate in
(02:47):
counselor education andsupervision in a fully online
program.
And so I was having thisexperience personally of
understanding online pedagogyand being online and even TA-ing
through that experience.
And yet, all my work livedexperience was on ground, so
when we had to pivot so fast, wehad three days and our classes
(03:09):
were online and I felt a realthankfulness and advantage over
a lot of my other colleagues atthe university, because I was
like,"Oh great; I got this."
Kristi (03:18):
Yeah.
Mariah LeFeber (03:19):
how to translate and can we do this in breakout
rooms?
And certainly it was difficult,but I felt like I had a
framework for it.
Kristi (03:26):
Yes.
Mariah LeFeber (03:27):
For a lot of people, I don't know that was
the case.
It's really been like a messyhybrid, a messy flexibility.
Kristi (03:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
Mariah LeFeber (03:37):
It, it feels like messy flexibility because
like we've had to be flexibleand yet, it be exhausting to, to
be like, okay, Who's onlinetoday?
Who's in person?
How am I accommodating
Kristi (03:49):
Yeah,
Mariah LeFeber (03:49):
styles in class?
And so it's been lot of justthat then I think something
that's interesting is that Ithink before the pandemic, I
would have like, Nope notteaching in an online program
because I really, my backgroundis dance therapy.
Kristi (04:06):
Right.
Mariah LeFeber (04:06):
I want to be in the room with people.
I want our bodies to be togetherand moving together.
So for me, it's challenged me tothink outside the box a little
bit.
Kristi (04:16):
Because in counseling, the whole foundation of it is,
being across from the person andthat whole body language and
interaction of being in the roomtogether.
Teaching somebody how to do thatand to use those same skills
through screen it's differentendeavor.
Mariah LeFeber (04:35):
It's a very different endeavor.
I think my students know thatbecause my background is dance
therapy.
Sometimes I laugh because Ithink about my training.
We often had class in a dancestudio with big, large pillows,
and we sat on the floor.
There were no tables, like itwas a very different kind of
experience.
And now that I'm in this moretraditional counseling program,
(04:56):
they're used to me saying I cantell you're tired, everybody
stand up.
We're moving around for a littlebit before we get the next
thing.
I think for awhile at thebeginning of COVID that I sort
of shut that down a little bitcause I just was like, how do I
make this transition?
And then once I figure it outoh, this is we're in this for
awhile.
I started to be like, well, Igot to do it online.
(05:17):
And I'd be like, all right,stand up wherever you're at,
push your chair away.
We're going to move for a minutebefore we come back to the
screens.
It has been like, actually, wecan do this and we just have to
figure out a a new path.
Kristi (05:29):
It's you lose one of your senses, You have to like,
have your other senses developmore fully in order to really
have that experience.
And we've kind of as therapistand teachers and supervisors
have lost of our senses, whichis being in the same room
together.
Mariah LeFeber (05:46):
Yeah.
Kristi (05:46):
And so now we've had to figure out how do you adjust to
that?
So you can still sense what'sgoing on.
Mariah LeFeber (05:53):
Yeah, the sensing.
And I think a theme that I thinkhas come up a lot with people
I've spoken to is the missing ofthe reciprocal energy, I'm going
to call it because there is thissense of two bodies being in the
same space where you justphysically it's like that brain
(06:13):
to brain, body to bodyconnection that is just
different when you're inliterally different physical
spaces.
And when you're not together andsensing that with all the five
senses.
So I do miss that.
I teach an undergrad psychologyclass and I forgot the energy of
all being there in that learningand then we were, and I was
(06:35):
like, oh,
Kristi (06:36):
oh, just drink it in.
Mariah LeFeber (06:38):
Yeah, to just be together and in COVID I had
transitioned some of theirassignments to discussion board
assignments, and so then lastfall, I said, well, here's the
deal if discussion board worksfor you?
That's great.
And if you're a verbalprocessor, we're going to meet
once a week and have a coffeediscussion.
And can choose what works foryou.
Kristi (06:58):
Nice.
Mariah LeFeber (06:58):
And I was amazed that over half the class, every
week came to the discussiongroup because I think that they
were just craving that
Kristi (07:06):
Yeah.
Mariah LeFeber (07:06):
feeding off of each other.
And that, that being together,
Kristi (07:10):
Yeah.
Mariah LeFeber (07:11):
it's do you have symptoms?
Where are your masks?
Yeah.
It's not like without effort,but the effort felt so worth it.
Kristi (07:17):
That makes me think about this now we've been two
years so you've had entirecohorts now who have just been
been online.
Mariah LeFeber (07:26):
Yeah.
Kristi (07:27):
notice anything different about the motivation
of people coming into the fieldor the, I don't know.
What they're looking forward towhat they're grappling with
anything different about thesecohorts.
Mariah LeFeber (07:41):
That's a really good question.
I mean, I will say that ourcohort that started during the
pandemic was just smaller thannormally.
And I think that's part of justeverybody's dealing with all
these transitions.
I think that think that wasreflected around the nation in
higher education.
That was part of what happened.
And now this season we have alarger cohort and I think also
(08:02):
people are transitioning toonline.
People are just learningdifferently.
Kristi (08:05):
Yeah,
Mariah LeFeber (08:06):
In the particular program that I teach
in it already attracts a lot ofsecond career students.
We have night classes once aweek, it's made to be a format
that's accessible.
So it's very common for me tohave a lot of my students who
have a lot more life experiencethan I do.
They're older than me andthey're coming to this as a
second career.
(08:27):
And so actually for that, hasn'tshifted a lot for my particular
program because we already havethis sort of niche of attracting
people who were coming in justat all different life stages.
Because of that access of theonline classes that there's
people pursuing it, who maybecouldn't have before, which I do
(08:47):
see as a real perk, the onlineaccessibility is oh, I couldn't
move or make an in-personcohort, but I can do this.
Kristi (08:57):
That is a good thing t hat's come of this.
So the thing I keep thinkingabout is how do you prepare
these students for beingcounselors in a pandemic?
Because right now we are seeingburnout from counselors along
with all the other helpingprofessions.
(09:18):
We want them to have longevity.
We don't want them to get outthere and burn out within a
couple of years.
how has that part of yourteaching changed?
How are you trying to preparepeople for the mental health
struggle of being a mentalhealth caregiver?
Mariah LeFeber (09:34):
For me, the question is not just, how do we
teach students to do this?
It's like, how do we learn to dothis ourselves?
I think it's layered questionbecause we haven't been able to
say, well, first how to do it.
We just jump into the deep end,right.
And be like, how do we holdthis?
How do we hold that we're goingthrough the same things as our
clients.
(09:55):
And not let ourcountertransference just totally
take over because we're like,yeah, we're living in a pandemic
too.
For me, honestly, a lot of ithas really honest modeling and I
that to my supervisees and Ithink that to students, but in,
in the therapeutic relationshipwe can't air our own stuff and
(10:15):
our own struggles.
And so really making thesupervision space and class
space, a space to really getinto talking about, what does it
feel like to be living the samereality as your clients?
And the self care piece becomesreally tangible.
I think it has to becometangible because otherwise the
(10:35):
burnout is so real.
So some is like adjusting mypedagogy.
Like literally, how do we doself-care in the class?
How do we start with fiveminutes of grounding meditation
or a little bit of movement, issomething with my theoretical
orientation I would have doneanyway.
But I think that it reallybecame clear.
(10:57):
we need this.
Sit in this space together namewhere we're at today.
And then we can go into learningcontent.
Kristi (11:04):
right.
It's not a luxury anymore,'it'sessential..
right.
Mariah LeFeber (11:08):
It's if you want to do this work, you have to
figure out what it looks likefor you to care for yourself.
So I think that this generationof counselors is going to
understand self care sooner anddeeper.
Kristi (11:22):
hope so.
Mariah LeFeber (11:22):
I hope so too because they it's just necessity
because of the climate rightnow.
Kristi (11:29):
Yeah.
A lot of times when people hearself they think a bubble bath,
you, something like that.
When you think self care, likein the deeper sense of self
care, What do you think for you?
And we can, obviously, this isgoing to be different for
different people, but what'sthat real piece?
What keeps you going?
Mariah LeFeber (11:50):
Yeah, I think just, just came to mind as you
were asking the question, but Ithink just for myself, it's like
what feeds your soul?
Cause I like to joke abouthashtag self care, and that's
Kristi (12:02):
got
Mariah LeFeber (12:02):
myself a fancy coffee, nice love it.
Took yes.
Whatever is.
But like those things are greatand I'm not dissing any of that,
yet it has become such acultural thing, to talk about
that..
And me, it's what feeds my souland makes me feel more whole as
a person.
And again, this is like my owntendency, but what makes me feel
(12:24):
connected to my body, to myinternal experience, connected
to my own emotions, my own innerexperience and self care for me
is carving out the space to saywhere I connect to me or maybe I
connect to myself by connectingto others.
And that like real deep soulwork and connection.
Kristi (12:47):
yeah, absolutely.
And piece others.
Feels more essential now.
Yeah.
So for generation of therapists?
You mentioned find self caremaybe sooner than
Mariah LeFeber (13:04):
rest of
Kristi (13:04):
us did.
I have anxiety for them if Ithink about it too much, just
because, or concern I should sayfor them, because they're coming
into the field during a reallyhard time.
What is your hope for wherethey're going to land?.
Mariah LeFeber (13:20):
Yeah, that's really hard, there's so much
comes to mind and think thatthey would be able to sort of
figure out.
And none of us arrive, we neverarrive at understanding
Kristi (13:30):
care
Mariah LeFeber (13:31):
and avoiding burnout, and all things, they
would feel really comfortable inthe journey of like always
asking how can I care for myselfin order to care for others?
And that would be, just a wayfor them to engage.
I think that a hope and also anecessity is that they'll have a
different kind of flexibility.
(13:53):
Than other generations ofcounselors.
I that there hasn't been choicein that.
And yet maybe that can bereframed as a kind of gift that,
that they will have that justinherent ability, because
they've had to say,
Kristi (14:08):
well
Mariah LeFeber (14:08):
turns out when you have symptoms we can meet on
tele-health, like just there's alot of beauty and flexibility in
that.
think.
that I always for my counselors,pandemic or not.
It's just that they real feelcomfortable in the messy area.
Cause I think we.
We, I also personally, I think alot about the danger of binary
(14:30):
thinking It black and whitethinking in a CBT orientation or
anything, but just like thingsare one way or things or the
other.
And so much culture, in theworld right now is challenging
us about the danger of this kindof binary thinking.
That, you know, that there'sthis way or there's that way.
(14:51):
And there's not this complexmiddle.
I have a colleague who's verydear to me who always says,
well, the answer to most ethicalquestions is it's complex and it
depends.
And I think, answer to mostquestions and I hope some
resilience and ability to be inthat gray area is born out of
(15:13):
this very whoa time.
Yeah to learn and learn how tobe counselors.
And so really comfort with thediscomfort of that not knowing.
Kristi (15:25):
And so being able to help this next generation find
comfort in that.
Mariah LeFeber (15:30):
Yeah.
Kristi (15:31):
man, that's a, yeah, that's a gift.
Mariah LeFeber (15:33):
Yeah.
And a challenge.
Right.
Like sometimes I just wantsomebody to be like, I know when
the pandemic will end, give me atimeline and answer or whatever,
and we have to learn how to liveand find care for ourselves in
that unknowing.
Kristi (15:48):
Yeah.
That's probably good for ourfield anyway.
Right.
Because just because mentalhealth is fairly ambiguous,
Mariah LeFeber (15:57):
Yes.
Kristi (15:57):
of ways.
And so just to develop moreflexibility of thinking and
resiliency around trying newthings and being able to stand
back up, right.
That is a great thing to wishfor the next generation of
therapists is to be able tobounce back.
To able come back when thingshave been hard.
Mariah LeFeber (16:20):
And time will tell, right?
We don't really know yet,
Kristi (16:23):
oh, it's going to be so interesting to see.
In all areas of how this hasaffected our children, we're
seeing churches are having bigimpacts, through the pandemic.
And, how is this going to impactcounseling we move So in
general, in, as you look at thecounseling field, what do you
(16:44):
think about things that thisfield needs to learn to adjust
to or learn to look at with anew lens?
Where do we need some bigadjustments in our view?
Mariah LeFeber (16:57):
Yeah, well, I think the one thing that has
adjusted that I'm curious to seeabout how it sustains is people
are talking about mental healthmore than they did before the
pandemic.
Kristi (17:09):
Yes.
Mariah LeFeber (17:10):
They're talking about the importance of mental
health, about the importance ofmental health workers, and so I
think that there's a lot ofgreatness about the fact that.
Through our pain through oursuffering.
So that's not great but throughthis collective pain that we've
encountered, we are talking moreabout taking care of ourselves
and taking care
Kristi (17:30):
Uh,
Mariah LeFeber (17:31):
And and I think that is.
That's something that has comeout of it that I hope sticks.
I think that's like my hope andmy fear all in, at the same
time, like we've noticed, we'veseen like this matters and then
like, how does it pan out?
Does insurance start to, valuemental health and pay people
(17:52):
what they're worth to do work ordo we start to support employees
to, to get their mental healthcare needs taking.
Health care givers and tosupport their own mental health.
So I think there's anopportunity there because we've
really seen it highlighted whatthe need is.
And now we have to see whathappens with that opportunity.
If it changes the face of how welook at this for, for the
(18:15):
long-term or if we go back tohow we thought about it in old
world, or just how it shifts.
Kristi (18:22):
Yeah, the next generation of people the and
young adults of our culture,we're already, I think,
Mariah LeFeber (18:29):
Yes,
Kristi (18:30):
more open
Mariah LeFeber (18:31):
right?
Kristi (18:32):
about mental health.
So hopefully that is a trendthat will,
Mariah LeFeber (18:35):
Yeah.
Kristi (18:35):
learning from them and we'll continue to move forward.
Now we are, our field isunderstaffed, right?
There's just, there's not enoughmental health workers out there.
I don't know if you're a part ofthis conversation or process at
all being in your program, buthow do we recruit more quality
(18:59):
mental health practitioners intoour field?
Mariah LeFeber (19:03):
That it's complex and it depends.
Kristi (19:05):
Ah, good answer.
Mariah LeFeber (19:07):
one thing that's coming to my mind is that one
really difficult thing is thatit's important that counseling
programs are very comprehensive.
It's like what an honor and whata charge to be guiding another
individual's experience of howthey see the world, through,
(19:27):
through mental health practice.
And so I think it's sonecessary.
Like we often talk about in theprogram I teach in yeah, but we
need that.
We need that class to be threecredits too.
And we need that class to bemore credits and there's just
not enough, so see how muchthere is to learn and to know
about the human experience.
So on one hand, it's soimportant to have that in-depth
(19:50):
rich training.
And on the other hand, likethat's really hard.
It's really expensive to havethat in-depth of a training it's
really it's really expensive.
It's really tying, you have todo these clinical internships,
which thank goodness we have todo clinical internships, but.
Kristi (20:03):
Yeah.
Mariah LeFeber (20:04):
What have you have to support a family or what
have you, there's a certainamount of access in that and
being able to this education.
Those are like two verydifferent things to hold.
Like we need to have thiscomprehensive training and yet
who's able to get of training sothey can do this
Kristi (20:22):
Exactly.
Mariah LeFeber (20:23):
work.
And then there's allconversation of yeah.
And then representation.
Right.
Because if we don't see peoplelike us represented in the
field, what makes us think thatit's something that is for us.
Those are what I think theissues are.
And I don't think I have anyanswers,
Kristi (20:39):
Yeah.
Mariah LeFeber (20:40):
but I think that some, sometimes online learning
is becoming an answer to thatbecause it's more accessible and
maybe more affordable.
And I think that.
I would love to see, in the sameway as.
that like schools are able togive people like full full
scholarships to get, to go toschool.
That's just not as common in thecounseling world that people are
(21:02):
able to get funded, to do thelearning and do the schooling
they need to do the work.
Kristi (21:07):
I should have looked this up before I mentioned this,
but there was some legislationgoing through in Oregon.
Where they were trying to havefunding for supervision, for
childcare.
So somebody can go to classesand just this kind of holistic
view, because it's not, like yousaid, it's not just can I afford
the classes.
(21:28):
It's
Mariah LeFeber (21:28):
Yeah.
Kristi (21:28):
to take time off of work to do this?
Can I get childcare to do
Mariah LeFeber (21:32):
Yeah.
Who's going to take care of mykids when I go to night class
who, you know so much that'sinvolved in that.
So I guess there's so manybarriers, anything that we can
do to help increase access.
I think because we do, we needmore mental health clinicians.
So how do we make that possible?
Kristi (21:49):
Do you guys talk about advocacy at the masters level?
As far as helping legislationget looked at.
Mariah LeFeber (21:55):
Well, I get to teach the advocacy class in our,
program, which is actually not aCACREP requirement to learn
about advocacy, but you don'thave to have a specific advocacy
class, but I loved likedeveloping it and teaching it.
And actually one thing that I dowith my classes, I bring in
someone who works for a localnonprofit, who does full-time
advocacy work at our statelegislator in Salem.
(22:19):
And we talk about so we talkabout.
What does it mean to advocatefor public policy?
And he talks about how can youwrite letters?
How can you be involved in this?
And we also talk about anadvocacy.
I'm starting to, like geek out,but like the levels of advocacy,
right?
Sometimes we're advocating,we're personally, sometimes
we're advocating the communityor the system.
Sometimes we're advocating at amore policy level and most of
(22:41):
the time, because we're human,we can't do all of those things
simultaneously, but can we usethis advocacy lens to to frame
out what we're doing.
Kristi (22:51):
So important such important work.
Mariah LeFeber (22:53):
yeah.
Kristi (22:54):
Well, Mariah, I really appreciate your time and I love
this conversation.
I do think about this nextgeneration coming up a lot and
just have a lot of concern andhope for them.
I just want them to, to justfind joy and success, and peace
as they enter this field.
And so I think about you andothers who are charged now with
(23:18):
helping train them and teachthem and what a joy and a burden
that is right now, especially.
So thank you for the work youdo.
and thank you for joining withme today.
It was a great conversation.
Mariah LeFeber (23:30):
I think it's a great idea.
Kristi White (23:33):
And I have to ask.
"Are your notes finished yet?"
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