October 1, 2025 • 45 mins
You're expected to drive transformation but can't fire anyone. You need to deliver results but don't control budgets. Welcome to the reality of leading software development efforts - all responsibility, zero authority.
Join Enterprise Business Agility Consultant Om Patel and Product Manager Brian Orlando as we discuss proven strategies for building influence when you have no formal power, including:
• Building relationships before you need them
• Leveraging expertise without becoming a gatekeeper
• Creating value through results delivery
• Navigating authenticity vs strategic communication
• Why being right isn't enough
Whether you're a product manager caught between stakeholders, a team lead struggling with team dynamics, or an agile coach trying to drive organizational change, this episode gives you tactics that actually work in the real world.
#AgileCoaching #ProductManagement #Leadership
Tags: agile coaching, product management, scrum master, influence without authority, leadership skills, team dynamics, organizational change, agile transformation, product operating model, stakeholder management
LINKS
YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@arguingagile
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/362QvYORmtZRKAeTAE57v3
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/agile-podcast/id1568557596
Website: http://arguingagile.com
INTRO MUSIC
Toronto Is My Beat
By Whitewolf (Source: https://ccmixter.org/files/whitewolf225/60181)
CC BY 4.0 DEED (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/deed.en)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Om, I wanna talk to you about adirty secret of agile coaches.
Ooh.
Okay.
We're, we're getting out allthe dirty secrets this episode.
You're expected todrive transformation.
I know we don't saytransformation anymore; you're
expected to drive towardsthe product operating model.
See what I did?
See what I did?
Oh, nice.
We're selling bookson the podcast.
You're also expectedto deliver results.
You're expected to changeorganizational behavior but you
(00:21):
can't fire anyone and you don'thave control of budget and you
don't have control of executivedecisions like they make those.
So, yeah, you're essentially amiddle manager except powerless,
I feel like one of those clownsin the circus with his hand
shackled in a burlap sack.
You're supposed to do all ofthese things, but you have
absolutely no authority.
That's right.
(00:41):
On anything.
That's right.
We want you to move mountainsand we don't give you
any tools to do it with.
So that's the question thenbecause there are coaches
out there that can do it.
Yeah.
Oh boy.
What a great topic.
Some savvy coaches can pulloff a lot but they've built
up a repertoire of theirskills over their career.
(01:03):
So we're gonna talk alittle bit more about.
What are some of the thingsthat are in your control even
without authority that youcan try to control your teams
into, into doing, but throughjust influence basically.
Let's start with the premisethat if you don't have any
authority, is there, isthere anything you can do?
Right?
(01:23):
We'll start there.
How do you do that?
Well, first of all, youare a catalyst, right?
As a change agent, andyou need to establish
trust with your team.
If they don't trust youto make changes you've
already lost, right?
So that's the first thingis establish trust and
credibility with them.
(01:44):
And then you can move.
Smaller, like rocksfirst, maybe pebbles.
Then borders before youget to the mountain.
So how do you, how do you dothis with a bunch of people
that you don't even knowwhen you first go in there,
but they all know that youhave absolutely no authority.
So you have no hire or fireauthority, you have no authority
(02:07):
to move team structure.
Eventually you'll get to thepoint where you can do this.
You can highly suggest youcan do all of those, but
they typically fall on deafears if you're first you
know, first into a, into anorganization trying to do this.
So let's start with trust.
First of all, howdo you build trust?
I was hoping you wouldask that question.
And you build thrust you,you build thrust, you
(02:28):
build, you build thrust by.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You turn, turn theairplane up to 11, you
turn the knob up to 11.
That's how, no,you, I don't know.
I should I cut that out?
I think I should leave that in.
Just leave it.
You build it by doing what mostpeople would probably tell you
in this category, which is inorder to approach influence by
authority, you need to buildstrong personal relationships.
(02:49):
And I just gave this networkingevent we were at last night.
I just gave this advice tosomebody who said, well,
I'm a scrum master and youknow, I'm having difficulties
and I dunno what to do.
And, my suggestion was, wellif you're a scrum master
that like, it tells me that.
You are a people person and thatyou like building relationships.
So what I would suggest isyou start cultivating deep
relationships with peopleall around the business
(03:11):
because you never know whenyour team is, got the call.
You know, pull that threadand ask for a favor, and
it's, it'd be way better ifit was coming from a friend,
coming from someone thatthey trusted because they
have a relationship with.
Now the team may be too busyto have those relationships,
but now, like your job isexclusively to have all
the relationships with allthe people in the business.
So that in the futureyou have that stored up.
(03:34):
So yeah.
I would add a little more tothat and say it's not just
building relationships mm-hmm.
In the business if you'rea matrix organization,
you should try and buildrelationships everywhere.
I mean, everywhere so itstarts with maybe at the
reception desk security.
Because your team mayneed you to come in on a
weekend one time to come inand maybe do a deployment
(03:55):
or something like that.
It helps if you have theseconnections, if you know people
well, or in my case where youwork outta government offices,
sometimes, like it reallyhelps the security people
Because you're coming in withguests every other week and
they're going through thesigning process or whatever.
It's much easier if youjust know all those people.
Yeah, I absolutelyagree with that.
So if you're coming in as ascrum master or Azure coach,
(04:16):
one of the first thingsyou should do is do a, what
I call a force field map.
Mm-hmm.
So it's, again, two by twotypical sort of BCG matrix.
Mm-hmm.
And just write down whoare the people that can
help you and who are thepeople that can hinder you.
Right?
So the the detractors,if you will, and put
their names in these.
(04:36):
You're not sharing thisdocument with anybody.
First of all, this is justfor your own use so you can
understand where things lie.
When it talks about strongand weak forces, it's just
about alliances, right?
Where do you need to formalliances and, three out of the
four corners, I'll tell you,just jumping ahead a bit, okay?
Three out of the fourcorners should be where you
need to build alliances.
(04:58):
And the fourth corner isnot where you don't need to.
It's just not now.
So you'll come back toit at some point, right?
When you start to getto know more people.
So net, net, all of them, youneed to build a alliance as much
as possible across all of them.
Like in the old arguing,agile back and forth here, the
kind of what you're outliningis the relationship first
(05:19):
method of building influence.
So I'm trying to think ifthere's a pushback on this.
I really can't think of anyin this broad category of
like, the more relationshipsthat you have banked, the
more effective that you'll be.
You know, like this usuallycomes out in another podcast
that we've talked about.
This comes out as communicationskill or other things.
Like it's notexactly that though.
No.
It's, this is so communicationskills can be learned.
(05:42):
We'll come back to whetherthis is something that you
can learn or is it innatecollaboration we've talked
about in previous podcasts.
Right.
But this is a bitmore than that.
When you're collaboratingyou need something from them.
They need something from you.
Mm-hmm.
But when you'rebuilding relationships,
there's none of that.
Well, here's a pushbackthat actually is a good one.
I mean, it's not good, butit's as good as you're gonna
(06:05):
get from me in this category,which is, you're building
these relationships, thereal substance isn't truly
you don't actually care.
You're just doing it to,oh, you know what I mean?
You're basicallymanipulating, right?
And like you people realizedthat you're not being authentic.
So it's like you're spendinga lot of time doing it.
You may as well not botherif you're, if you're
doing that right, you'rebasically faking it.
And, and don't, don't doit because you've wasted to
(06:28):
your point, you've wastedtime and energy getting
to the point where you'regetting nothing from it.
In fact, it's worse than notdoing it at all because people
will know that you are, you'refaking it and then you've got
no chance of getting that trust.
And the other.
Part of this is gonna be thosepeople that you will definitely
run into that say, oh, oh,that's can't you be like, well,
you're just talking to peoplecan, and you're not even really
(06:50):
necessarily about work stuff.
Can't, can't, isn'tthere important things
you could be doing?
You know, you're gonnarun into those people.
Yeah.
I try to just go aroundthose people because there's
nothing more important thanbuilding relationships right.
The time to build them isn'twhen you need something.
The time to build them isahead of time when you don't.
Just go ask people, walkby the security desk and
(07:13):
just say hi to them youknow, how's their day going?
Seriously?
I mean that, if you do that,what will happen is your name,
your face will stick in theirminds, and when you go in again,
they'll greet you with a smile.
Now they're already open.
With the possibility if youdid have a need you know, like
getting in the building afterhours, whatever it might be.
So the time to do it is not whenyou need something, it's before.
(07:36):
And also don't stop.
Just keep doing that is that theold, like one's the best time to
plant a tree like 20 years ago?
Is that, is that thatkind of like day one?
It kind of is itreally is day one.
Yeah.
When, when's the best times?
20 years ago, when, when's,when's the next best time?
It's like right now, today.
It's never too late okay.
If you choose to go throughthe process of building
your influence by buildingrelationships, which I think
we both will suggest, like onthe product management side,
(07:58):
I'm definitely, I'm only tryingto play devil's advocate here,
but on product management,that's just not a job you
can do without doing this.
So if you choose to doit, like to be authentic.
Be reciprocal.
Don't don't try to shortcutit, that kinda stuff.
This is not something youcan shortcut and I would
say, I dunno if you have anyparticular advice on like,
ways to go about it, likefocus on other people's,
(08:19):
like goals, challenges,you know what I mean?
'Cause you never, you also,like the other side of this is
you never know when you mightbe in a position to unblock
somebody that you didn'treally even realize that.
Exactly.
So you've heard me saythis many times with them.
This actually came up last time.
WIIFM or what's in it for me?
So think about it from theother person's perspective
(08:40):
of what's in it for them.
If you do that, you mightbe able to help them.
And so that, that's also truethat be prepared to give.
If not, just listen.
That goes a long way if youjust listen and then make a
suggestion, maybe somebodycan help them, right?
So you can kind ofconnect the dots.
That in and of itself is agood is a good thing and, and
a great help to people thatare asking you for things.
(09:03):
So, yeah.
I mean, the time wasyesterday and now, right?
Basically.
Yeah.
Yeah.
if we're gonna transition tothe next category, the, the
expertise and credibility asinfluence, this is, I kind of
hinted at this, you're gonna getthis from people, is like, well,
my expertise is my credibility.
I don't need to, I don'tneed to waste time.
(09:23):
On talking to people andhaving one-on-ones and the
Mark Zuckerbergs of theworld I don't need to spend
time having one-on-ones.
I am smart.
Look at me.
Anyway sorry, I, Iwas gonna curse there.
So that school of thoughtargues that deep expertise
and demonstrated competencecreates a natural authority.
So I don't need.
The the bank of influenceby connecting and making
(09:46):
all these personalrelationships that we talk
about already in the podcast.
I don't need that becauseI have the authority.
'cause I like people respect me.
'cause I'm amazing.
When you consistently providevaluable insights and solve
problems that other peoplecan't, then you become
the go-to person peopleseek your input regardless
of they like you or not.
And then now youhave the influence.
That's, that's, I II see you cringing.
(10:06):
Yeah, I see you cringing.
I, I I can understand, thethinking that because you're
an expert, people will.
Come to you, right?
But that's not the sameas having influence.
That's not the same at all.
That's simply, they'resimply coming to you for
your technical prowess.
Yeah.
For your, for your guidance.
Yeah.
Or, or because they have to,presumably because they have
(10:27):
to, because they didn't have to,they would go to somebody else
who does have influence, right.
And empathy and all of that.
So people like this, peoplewho think this way typically
don't like to share information.
And when they, when they findthemselves out there looking
for work for whatever reasonthey're gonna be in for a
surprise, rude awakening.
(10:49):
Yes, indeed.
Because the next organizationthey go to, depending on
the culture of that org,they may not fit at all.
No.
Well, you won't, you won't getthrough the interview process.
That's right.
Yes.
Because you'll comeacross as the know it all.
Yeah rather than somebodywho builds bridges yeah.
Unfortunately I've seen afew people known a few people
like that in my career.
Ah, yeah.
I mean, I'm telling you, evenexecutives don't like to talk
(11:11):
to these people, but they talkto them because they have to.
And these people typicallycannot talk at the same level.
So an example, right?
These people are in aposition of authority, so
they automatically findthemselves being invited
to things like conferences.
Sure.
Or user user conferencesit's find here trade
(11:31):
conferences, right?
Yeah.
So they're, they're thetrade conference at your
booth and in comes somebodyelse, potentially a prospect.
Mm-hmm.
And they want to talk.
And these peopletalk differently.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They talk tech talk.
Mm-hmm mm-hmm.
And they talk down to peoplethat don't understand the
technology that they understand.
None of that bodes well forthe organization as a whole.
(11:52):
Well there is you know, ifI'm gonna stay on the arguing
side of this one and thentake a shower after is, sorry.
there is some credenceto technical expertise.
Like if I'm thinking aboutagile coaches, for example
like I want, on my programI want an agile coach that's
been there before on a programof several hundred people.
And is not gonna balk at leadinga program retrospective with
(12:16):
leadership up and down a chain.
That like titlesdon't mean anything.
Like I, I'm looking for someonewith, I'm looking for the seen
it all seen it all done at all.
Agile coach who is not shakenby anybody, challenging
him, that kind of person.
So there is some credencehere to be, to say when I
like when the pressure's on,I'm looking for that person.
That has the ability to perform.
(12:37):
Yeah.
First of all, I thinkwhat you're describing is
a seasoned professional.
Right.
But also we don'thire anyone over 27.
So, I mean, we have a toughtime hiring here at Brandon sza.
Right off consulting people.
We look for people thatare under 27 with 20
years experience in aithat's called more energy.
That's what it's called.
That was E Real, that wasere I'll never stop bringing
up in a podcast like that.
(12:57):
That's what I was told onetime when hiring Brian,
you gotta find peoplewith quote, more energy.
More energy.
I was like, oh,you mean younger?
No, of course not.
I would never say thatbecause it's illegal.
Wink.
There's a difference betweenthe scenario you just
described, somebody who'sbeen around the block Yeah.
Or been around many blocksand they can not bat an
eyelid standing in front ofa town hall of 300 people.
(13:20):
Sure.
Whatever it might be.
But the previous discussion wejust had was about people having
the expertise and hoarding it.
Right.
Because they wannaappear meritocratic yeah
this is what I bring.
Right, right.
Yeah.
And you need to come to me.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Somebody who's an agilecoach or a business agility,
person would say, I'mnot the bottleneck here.
(13:42):
Right.
I don't provide the solutions.
I wanna co-create withyou an environment where
you can find the solution.
Mm-hmm.
So I think there's adifference there, because
in the latter case, you'renot hoarding anything.
You don't even havethat deep expertise.
Yeah.
You do in soft skills,facilitation skills,
all of those things.
(14:03):
Mm-hmm.
But people aren't lookcoming to you to learn that
or grab that from you theydon't necessarily do that.
But let's say you are aenterprise architect who
understands database schemaand whatever else it might be.
So people need to come to you.
Yeah so I, I think there'sa difference there.
Agile coaches and the theyare all the more eager
to share their knowledge.
Mm-hmm so they'll go toa team and say how about
(14:25):
talk to a scrum master?
You need to, you needto facilitate, but let
me show you some tips.
Mm-hmm the other case,however, is I'm just gonna
give you just enough.
Yeah and then the rest you'llhave to squeeze outta me.
Yeah.
You know, anotherthing that sorry.
It bugs me because It's true.
That's why it bugs me,is that, being Right.
It doesn't necessarily guaranteethat you're gonna be heard.
(14:46):
Yes, yes.
It's very true.
So have you come acrosspeople like that?
Yeah.
That are always right?
Yes and people say, oh, yeah,yeah, that's Mr. Know-it-all,
Ms. Know-it.All, and we justgonna ignore what they say.
Mm-hmm.
Because you only have tobe wrong one time and down
goes your credibility.
Yeah.
But you're notworried about that.
'cause you're focused, you'reriding your expertise all the
(15:06):
time so when people see you fallyou know, in their eyes because
you failed at some point, evenif it's not like an object
failure you lose the trust.
Yeah.
That's the bottom line.
The only other thing aboutexpertise and we'll probably
cover this later so I don'twanna harp on it now, is I've
been in a lot of organizationswhere expertise starts as a
cross-functional skill andthen it turned into a silo.
(15:29):
You know, I, I think of likeall the, I think of like when I
work with great ui UX folks theystart with one team and they're
cross-functional and they'rejust like part of the team.
And then they get mo becausethey're effective, they
get moved off that one teaminto like a shared services
model and then they becomecompletely ineffective.
'cause now they're servingsix teams and they can't do
any real meaningful work.
(15:51):
And the company won'thire more people 'cause
they're not quite sure howto incent that position.
'cause again, you'vegotta you've gotta
incent every position.
Otherwise, oh my goodness.
What would peopledo if I didn't?
You know, put a carrotand the stick in front
of 'em or whatever.
Yeah.
This is one of the disadvantagesof a matrix org because you do
have this situation where youhave shared services, models,
(16:12):
pockets of expertise that arejust lent out to the teams.
Just enough.
So they're typically lentout for their hard skills.
Right.
They're not lent out toinstill knowledge and
ability capability, I guessin, in amongst those teams.
They don't have time todo that so they're gonna
just go in there, in yourexample, knock out some ui,
(16:34):
go right back and so theteams are left with a UI that.
They got.
But if they have to changethat, or if they have to come
up with a new one, you're gonnago back to that group again.
Chance says, oh, you'll findsomebody else going it to you.
Yeah, yeah and now youstart all over again, right?
Yes.
And that, that'sexactly what happens.
And also you nailed it whenyou said you'll knock out some
(16:55):
ui and that's not what I needfrom them because I've got
a senior front end engineer.
They're pretty good atUI design, they've seen a
lot of different designs.
And I've been coupled witha lot of mobile developers
that are really smartabout industry trends and
what's on the forefront.
So, the UI is not what I need.
I need the systemicview of the ux, the flow
through the whole system.
The walking through of thecustomer experience is what
(17:16):
you're looking for there, right?
Yeah.
And that, that you can onlyget that when you go deep.
Correct.
So you need time and investmentof that person to come in and
stay embedded with the teamfor an extended period of time.
So in this case, the expertiseactually has done the opposite.
Your deep expertise becauseof bad org design has now
theoretically your deep orgexpertise, should make it so
(17:37):
that you are respected and yourrelationships get deeper and
like more people come outtathe woodwork to like la your,
the, the meritocracy, right?
But sure.
But in actuality what'shappened is now, like
everyone thinks you're flaky.
You never stay on one thing longenough, you pivot but, but it's
like, it's an effect of like,everyone wanting to use your
skill and the organizationaldesign is kind of undermining.
(17:58):
So like in that case, we goright back to the very first
category is like, well whatcan you do There is like, if
you're connecting with peoplein and outside of like your
day-to-day work like that,what's going to come through is.
Hey, my skills and demandin the company is like not
willing to pay for more people.
So this is, I'm doing the bestI can and then you'll treat them
like a person doing the best Ican, being overwhelmed, not this
(18:20):
person is flaky and whatever.
You know without therelationship, you'll see
that object of a personrather than the actual person
who's like, that's right.
Well, the company doesn'twanna buy another they don't
wanna have, buy more time,so what are you gonna do?
You're gonna get a crappy job.
Yeah.
I have nothing moreto add to that.
Absolutely correct.
De personifies yourcontribution completely.
I'm not sure about thetakeaway in this category.
Build T-shaped expertise.
(18:42):
Deep knowledge in your domain,plus broad understanding
of adjacent areas,sharing knowledge through
teaching and mentoring tomultiply your influence
beyond direct application.
That thinking is alittle bit older now.
Yeah, yeah.
Now people are talking aboutmha, believe it or not.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Yeah, that's whatthey're talking about.
They're saying, so you have.
Pretty solid skills.
(19:02):
. Those are the, I guessthey're verticals if you
do the m in a certain font.
But, you can ramp up anddown quickly is what the, the
down and the upward anglesof the mr. Oh, and I, I, I
can't relate it to what we'retalking about necessarily.
If I had a nickel for everytime that I had a load of font
locally just to be able to useit, people hoarding though,
they'd be o-shaped, right?
Yeah, because they containeverything within the circle.
(19:24):
Everyone's addingso many shapes.
Okay, so expertise, I get it.
Expertise can get youinvited to the table.
But the next point we're gonnatalk about is value creation
and results delivery becausethe two sides of this one are
the, the pragmatic approachto influence, which focuses
on consistently deliveringmeasurable value, which by the
way, I'll tell you this, thistopic right now, I'm saving
(19:46):
for a whole separate podcast.
And the title of that podcastis if you are not visible,
you are not valuable.
Question mark.
Like that's, I already havethe working title of that
podcast 'cause I think it'sa strong, strong podcast
that we need to talk about.
Yeah.
That idea that's stuck inpeople's minds is like,
well, if you're not out thereconstantly marketing yourself,
like you're worthless.
I'm like, Ooh it sounds likeyou want to get into a fight.
(20:09):
I don't know if I believe that.
So the argument for thisone is simple if you make
people's lives better andhelp them achieve their goals.
So results are important, theresults and metrics obsessed
culture of like corporateAmerica, the what lends
itself to short-term thinkinglike that it that seems to
undermine this so like, we're,we're obsessed with creating
value, , none of us aregonna be in here two years.
(20:31):
So who, who cares?
Listen at the end of the day,if you are an individual who
cares about improving yourcraft, right, you should care.
It doesn't matter if you thinkyou're not gonna stick around.
There's greenerpressures everywhere.
At least it appears that way.
So you shoulddefinitely care, right?
And.
As far as like, okay, ifyou are helping somebody,
(20:53):
that's one thing.
'cause it's overt, right?
You are there, they're there,there's an interface there.
Yeah.
But after that, you peel awayand people that you helped
at some point later couldbe talking to other people
and say, Hey, that, youknow that Brian in product.
Right?
Right.
He's, he helped us out.
If you've got an idea orif you, if you're vexing
(21:14):
on something, talk to him.
Yep.
You won't necessarily hear that.
Yeah.
Yourself.
Yeah.
You won't, but you'llget a random slack ping
in the middle of day.
Yeah exactly.
From someone thatyou don't know.
You don't know.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So when those kinds of thingsstart happening, you know
you're doing something rightbut you can't, you can't set
out thinking that's the endresult you are shooting for.
(21:34):
'Cause you'll just be.
It's, it's noise in themiddle of your workday.
So it's like, you're just like,oh, what can I help you with?
Let me go.
Oh, go.
Let me give you the smallestthing you can to go away.
And then eventually it turnedinto a big thing, and then
that turns into a relationship.
But it's just like extrastuff that makes you
busier during the workday.
And you won't realizeit, , maybe now people
listen to this podcast.
Now we'll gain theself-awareness to realize that
like, that is an indicatorthat one of those seeds you
(21:57):
put out there has now, likegrown, is strung a sprout.
Yes.
Now it's grown.
It's a, it's a tree and it'slike growing seeds of its own.
Yeah.
And you know, the word is out.
You're doing your keepdoing what you're doing.
That stuff happens to me alot where people ping me for
help, where it's like, it'snot gonna help me accomplish
any of the stuff that, likemy boss is looking for.
And it's not gonna help melike, directly do stuff that
my team is working on rightaway but it's stuff that
(22:20):
I really should stop andmake time to help people.
Because if I like wheel wayback, like 30,000 feet way
up, then I would have thehigh level view to understand
that like, oh, thesepeople are approaching me.
'cause other people said,oh, I was successful when
I went to Brian and Right.
Maybe you can talk tohim about this thing.
And maybe he doesn't knowexactly about it, but
(22:40):
you know, he, he's smart.
He will workthrough it with you.
That kind of stuff.
Yeah.
I mean if that kind ofstuff happens to you, maybe
you don't even realize it.
Maybe now that you've heardit on the podcast it'll
ring through that, you know?
Yeah.
And if it happens toyou repeatedly, then it
builds on itself, right?
Yeah.
So that's the reward for me iswhen people call you that you
don't even know and they'lljust say, so and so said you
(23:01):
helped him out two years ago,and now I've come across a
slightly different issue.
Can you help me?
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it doesn't contribute to whatyou're doing for your boss, but.
You are actually helpingyour organization.
You know, the interestingthing about this one is , I
think about this like latercareer, it's harder to find
an example to put my finger onearly career where I was just
(23:24):
a QA analyst, QA engineer,working on a team big team or
whatever, like knocking out amulti month project that the
project management came downwith the big book of pages and
like with UML diagrams and stufflike that from back in the day.
You never saw the user, younever heard from the user.
You didn't know if whatyou did affected anyone.
But you still in, even inthat environment, you had
some developers and QApeople and stuff like that,
(23:46):
that, went over and above.
And did a great job, nobodyever saw, I mean the people
to your left and right.
Saw it, no customer ever sawany results from your work.
'cause like that old wayof working, you know?
Where you went months untilanyone could inspect your
work as opposed to like,what we talk about all the
time is like, oh, you, you'realways working directly for
(24:08):
somebody in short increments.
You know, the new way ofworking that is called the
product operating model.
That's what I'm calling it.
It has nothing to do with thenamesake of this podcast at all.
Totally different.
But if you're working that way,like the structure lends itself
to what we're talking about now,just the structure of, Hey, I'm
delivering a small subset offeatures to you like personally.
(24:33):
In a very short turnaroundtime, and then you can tell
us what you think or you know,what you like, what you don't
like, what you think about it.
Yeah.
And then we'll change what we'redoing like that, like this,
because the other side of thisis the people that will say
like, well, your metrics arewhat people are judging you on.
So like, the people side ofit, like the, the like customer
happiness or whatever likeif your customer happiness
metrics are not factoredinto your, raises and , your
(24:56):
promotion at the end of theyear and stuff like that.
Yeah.
Then like, they're not real,, , but the numbers that you're
judged on, like they are real.
So you need to do thoseor otherwise you'll
never give, get ahead.
That's absolutely true.
I often think about those poorpeople that are at the end
of a phone call or chat awaysupporting customers, right?
People don't think aboutthose people necessarily
(25:16):
those people have a directinterface with frustrated
customers typically.
And they do a prettygood job on the whole of
understanding their issues.
So it doesn't matter whatyour role is, if you're
trying to figure out what isreally troubling the customers
go sit with your customersupport reps for a bit.
And you'll learna lot from that.
And then you work withproduct sales, whoever to
kind of augment the product.
(25:38):
Yeah, if you are not incentedto do that, why would you?
Well, I say that all thetime on the podcast if
you're not traveling withyour sales folks and talking
to prospects and doingprospecting with them you know,
I mean, what are you doing?
You're just talking to thecustomers that you already have
committed buying your product.
Like that's a, I mean,that's a limited scope.
Very much so.
So yeah, there's a lot here.
(25:58):
I mean, we could stay on thistopic, the whole rest of the
podcast, focus on leadingindicators of value rather
than lagging indicators.
Which is kind of, we talkeda little bit about that.
I feel we could stay onthis one for a long time.
But I wanna move us alongjust because we got a couple
more points here to talkabout document and communicate
your contributions clearly.
But always share creditwith your team and try
(26:18):
to be expanding thatsustainable influence.
So there's a bunch ofstuff that we talked
about in this category.
Well, let's see.
Yeah.
I mean, long term isthe key here, right?
Sustainable.
And you're not in itfor credit, right?
How, how do you knowyou are winning?
It's not just you as anindividual solo person.
Enable your team toget those wins, right?
(26:39):
And then the teams willtalk about you 'cause you're
the ones that actuallyinfluence them to get to that
position where they can win.
So results open doors, likewe already talked about
that but let's pivot tothe dark side real quick.
Let's , just take a minuteor two to explore this
for me because I needto explore this one.
Remember the old Phoenixproject or the dude that
was like the go-to, I don'tremember what his name was.
(26:59):
Brett.
Brett or Brent or somethinglike it was, yeah, yeah.
Possibly, yeah.
The opposite of how towin friends and influence
people here is like what theworst people do with this,
which is the informationhoarding , so the approach
of becoming indispensablethrough information access
and strategic positioning.
So I have talked many times onthe podcast about a particular
(27:22):
developer I worked with in thepast who was very good at this.
Remember , the old reportstory where it was like he
had the reporting databaseand you had to just go to him.
He would nevergive anyone access.
You had to go to him topull any report you want,
and then he would like,take out all the data that
made development look bad.
Whenever he would give reports.
That's information hoarding.
Some people excelat this, right?
(27:43):
We've come across thosepeople in our lives already.
So that, that's howhe kept himself in the
middle influence for him.
Was being the person that youmust go to, the gatekeeper
might I add, which isinteresting because modern
organizations should be pricingexactly the opposite of that.
Yeah.
Transparency you mean?
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Yeah.
(28:03):
Transparency.
People that buildagency within the org.
But no, we've come acrosspeople that will not share
information with you.
Yeah.
And they will havemultiple reasons.
They'll throw any numberof reasons at you.
It's very complicated.
It's like, whatdoes that even mean?
I understand technology, right.
But it would be, oh,it's too fragile.
If you touch it, it's toorisky for you to touch it.
(28:25):
It's like there's allthese different things
they'll come up with.
That was his excuse bythe way, is like oh, we
can't have you hitting theproduction reputation tape.
Something that it's very,it's very sensitive and
you you could bring it downwith a bad sequel query.
You don't know thetable structure.
I'll just get youthe data you need.
That was, I don't know whatthis is the ASMR version of it.
I dunno why I that, I mean, thisis solid gold right here because
(28:50):
I, I'll, I will tell you there,there's going to be, at some
point on this video, there'sgonna be somebody who had the
same experience that I had withthe same like, disingenuous this
is a disingenuous person Yeah.
Dealing with.
Yeah.
But the this is a commonarchetype that people will.
People will encountermost definitely if you,
(29:10):
if you've worked for morethan a couple years, I'm
sure you've come across atleast one person like this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They're unfortunately,they're very common and
you can tell, right?
You, I mean, these peoplearen't going to cooperate
with you right off the bat.
You go to them with a requestand they'll just say, go
formulate the request properly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like, okay.
Can you help me?
What, what about this doyou want us to change?
(29:32):
Look, we're gonna, we're gonnatake a tangent on the podcast.
It's been a long timesince I monologue though.
This is this is a nice thingabout LLMs and the agentic
workflows of the futurethat are emerging now is
everybody has a client.
I mean, everybody has anMCP server that you can
pull a client to, right?
Sure.
So like, Elasticsearch has anMCP server, I'm sure Postgres,
if they don't already, they'regoing to have an MCP server
(29:53):
where you don't need to know thetable structure and the schema
and all the table you don'tneed to know in elastic search,
you don't need to know all thedifferent fields the hundreds
of fields and the differentspecific types of query.
You just need to pull a client,pull down the MCP server, have
access granted to you, and thenyou just threw an LLM ask it,
Hey, I need to know this data.
(30:14):
And then it figures it out.
These types of artificialbarriers, these artificial silos
that have been built, they'relike, oh, you want stats?
About production.
Ooh.
Well, we're on Elasticsearch.
You don't have Elasticsearchquery knowledge.
You gotta come to me because I'mthe resident expert who knows
all the data scheme and I'vegot the, the old enterprise,
(30:36):
the relational diagram orwhatever it used to be.
I don't remember.
ERDs.
EERD Is that what theanti relationship diet?
Yeah, yeah.
Entity relationship.
Da, yeah.
The old database.
Like all the tables.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I've got I've, that arrows fromforeign key to foreign key's.
That's right.
I've got that in mycube, and I'm the only
one that knows all that.
And, oh, that's outdated.
You don't know the latestchanges you don't like
(30:56):
the future in the future.
You won't like that, that isnot power anymore because all of
the technology just connects it.
So like you don't need toknow all that deep stuff.
You can still go findit and figure it out.
Certainly that's not going away.
But for the casual of the skilllevel of the casual observer
is what I'm saying, is beenelevated up to a point where
(31:18):
like the, your gatekeepingnow , it becomes obvious
that is what you are doing.
I agree with that.
Resistance is futilefor those people.
I think because anyone canlearn how to query using,
using prompts, right?
Yeah.
So anyone can do that.
These people's power, if youwill, is diluting by the day.
(31:39):
So it won't be long before you,you won't even have to go to
these people to find out stuffwell, and what will they do?
I mean, it was, well,first of all, it was always
toxic what they were doing.
No doubt.
You know?
So what will they do?
Like go find anotherplace to hide.
Like maybe find anotherorganization that is
like less technologicallyadvanced to hide in it.
It's gonna be increasingly hardto find, but yes, at some point
(32:00):
that will be too difficult.
Yes, so then it'll be toolate for these people to
pivot to anything becausethey left it like that.
Right?
Too late.
You know, the other thingabout like team lead, like
a good team lead, likethey become the connector
between organizational silos.
So like you and I would lookat an organizational silo and
be like, well, that's bad youneed to break that down and
have cross-functional teamsand not have these silos.
I've been coupled with somereally excellent team leads
(32:23):
or solution architects,like those kind of people.
They find a way to connectdifferent teams and bring
teams together despite thedisadvantages of the org
structure i'm trying not to makethis into a org design podcast,
which we will have at one point.
Well, I hope so.
But there, there's that too.
I mean individual teamsdeliver those people that
glue the program together,they don't deliver anything.
(32:45):
So Well, they enablethe teams, right?
They they do.
But again, if we don't havemetrics promoting agile coaches
and their ability to, what,what they allow teams to do,
we definitely don't have itfor the solution architect.
So the enterprise architects,those type of people either.
so yeah, I like becomingthe go-to person, you know?
Like it's a good job toexpand your influence if
(33:08):
you're not abusing it.
And if you're the go-toperson for whatever reason,
you happen to have arrivedat that situation now, right?
Yeah.
Maybe think about spreadingsome of that knowledge.
Yeah.
You know, withyour teams, right.
That should be rewarded bythe org rather than this
person is elevated to theirhighest level of incompetence.
Incompetence, yeah.
(33:28):
Yeah.
So if you are one ofthose people, yeah, by all
means, start sharing thatinformation with people.
All right, let's move on.
So the takeaway here useinformation, access to
facilitate better decisions.
Rather than controlling them.
Correct?
Yes.
This facilitation, we,we could have spent a lot
more time on this podcasttalking about facilitation.
Sure.
But again, there's gonna bestuff that comes outta this,
(33:50):
that goes to another podcastthat's on a similar vein.
So I don't, like, maybethere's a lot of stuff here.
I don't know.
I gotta think about it.
In the editing, I'll thinkabout what I want to take
focus on being the synthesizerrather than a gatekeeper.
Yeah.
Always work towards makinginformation more accessible,
not less more accessible,more transparent, not less so.
(34:10):
Those are a few takeaways here.
So this category was aboutlike the disingenuous way
that information can give youa seat at the table and the,
the category we're going into.
The final debate thatwe're gonna have our
last point for the night,that's what we're saying.
That's right.
It's nighttime, no matterwhere you are right
now, it's nighttime.
The final debate centersaround authenticity versus
strategic influence.
(34:31):
Should you focus on beinggenuinely yourself, letting
influence flow naturally fromyour authentic leadership?
Or should you strategicallyadapt your approach
based on what works fordifferent stakeholders?
This is a complicated onefor the last category, so
I don't know how fast we'regonna buzz through this, but
as a, oh, I think it was theStakeholder communication
podcast that we did.
(34:52):
We said you have to adapt yourleadership style to the people
that you're leading, and thatis wrapped up in this one.
But I, I mean, to bringit up in the sassies most
disingenuous method possibleby saying like, you're having
one-on-ones and you're saying,Hey, buddy, what's going on?
You don't you're not,you don't really mean it.
(35:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're doing it strategically tohave to make yourself seen as.
You know what I mean?
Like, you're not reallytrying to help oh, it
sounds like you've gotsome bad things going on.
Well, that sucks kid.
I hope somebody saws it for you.
Yeah, I'm out.
I gotta get a coffeeand go play golf man up.
Yeah, no, so I think in thisone, this isn't a binary
situation where you'realways one or the other.
(35:35):
I think you really need to adaptto the situation and the people
that you're dealing with we'vedealt with some very sticky
stakeholders management style.
And it doesn't matter whatyou do with them, with the
soft skills, you're justnot gonna make any headway.
So for those kinds of people,I've been guilty of, I'm
not saying manipulating, butstrategically positioning
(35:56):
my approach okay.
And that's because, look, I onlyhave so many hours in a day.
I'm gonna make sureI win and this is how
I win but for others.
I'm there for them withoutanything like what's in
it for me personally.
Yeah.
I'm just there tounderstand, listen to them.
And if I can't help, I canat least lend a shoulder.
(36:17):
So there's pushback in this one,, just so I don't bury the lead
here, let me lead by saying myleadership style is completely
authentic and if peoplewant to ask like, Hey Brian,
where do I stand with this?
Or, Hey Brian, what'syour opinion on this?
I will tell them, and itwill be brutally honest, and
some people don't like that.
Some people do not like myunfiltered initial take, but
(36:40):
it is, it's my initial takeon things and when I find
out more, I'll change myopinion and sometimes that
rubs people to the wrong way.
The opposite side of that,which is very legitimate,
says different stakeholdersrespond to different
influence styles differently.
And one size cannot fit all.
And your authenticity is notan excuse for, for not like
(37:03):
shuffling, you know whatI mean, not changing your
personality or style to dealwith a different person.
So if you were in charge ofall the product managers in
the organization home, right?
And like you came to me andyou're like, what do you
think about this idea, Brian?
And I'm like, this idea sucks.
Like you, it's fullof assumptions.
You haven't vetted anything.
Like if you go down this idea,like you're gonna waste six
(37:23):
months of the UX time andwhatnot why would you do that?
No customers ever askedfor it it's terrible.
And then you go to anotherproduct manager they might
tiptoe around a little bit morethan I would.
Yeah.
And now you're gonna havea tough time consolidating
that feedback together onan equal playing field,
not realizing like not, nottaking like personalities
into consideration.
You do have to bear inmind who you're speaking
(37:45):
with, right, right.
And, and kind of craftyour messaging accordingly
so here, here's thething to, to remember.
You can be completely 100%authentic all the time.
Yeah.
And you'll be successfulmost of the time.
Yeah.
But not all of the time.
So the times when you're notsuccessful will be with those
people that really don't want tohear what you have to say, but
(38:07):
they're gonna ask you and nowwhen you say, well, this idea
sucks that's not what they wantto hear what they want to hear
is, your idea is good, but...
I would just say, haveyou considered this?
Right if you haven't, youmight, and then we can talk
again maybe in next week.
I mean, you just summarizemy career right there.
There are certain peoplethat they don't want to
hear that their idea is bad.
(38:27):
Like they just flat out so youneed to communicate with them
in a way you need to changeyour communication style to
maintain your core principles.
But to communicate with themin a way where you change their
diaper gently you, you, sorry,that was, that was uncalled for.
That was unnecessary youtreat their e like you put
(38:49):
a nice pillow under theirego, so there's no chance.
Of it being bruised in theconfrontation that happens
when they're for some reasonasking for your opinion,
which by the way, they'regonna disregard anyway.
And you know, they'regonna do that when you
go into the conversation.
But again it's the, I wouldargue here, you are not
(39:09):
being like, there is a levelof authenticity that you
have to throw a veneer overto deal with people like that.
Maybe it's just anorganization thing.
Be like, well, Brian, that'sjust your organization and like,
if you're in that organization,you gotta play that game,
quote, play that game.
And that's the way it is.
My arguing side of this oneis you're, you're either
(39:30):
being authentic or you're not.
Obviously it's not blackand white in reality.
Yeah.
But for the purpose of thepodcast the people that can be
completely authentic at workwith everyone and say like,
Hey, I don't like that idea.
Because the first time thatyou shout somebody down
that says, I don't likethat idea in a meeting.
Like, again, I've beenon development teams
20 years in a career.
(39:50):
Yeah.
I've seen a lot of testers,developers, shouted down by
product owners or VPs or C-levelexecutives when they raise
this tiniest concern and thatperson never speaks up again.
So, yes, absolutely.
But here's the otherside of it, right.
So what happens when somebody,let's say at the C level Yeah.
(40:10):
Asks you for something and, andyou know, their idea is stupid.
Yeah tell 'em thatupfront in this case.
Keep that resume updated.
Oh, I wouldn't tell 'emthey already is stupid.
I feel very lucky.
I work in product management.
I can say like, isthis something you're
willing to bet on?
Meaning is this an assumptionand you think that if we do
(40:31):
X then we'll get this result?
Or do you know?
And if you don't know, wouldyou mind running this test
against a customer or wouldyou mind our team meeting with
the customer to do something?
Meaning would you mind ifthe UX person or whatever,
like test the idea.
And if that doesn't bruisetheir ego, then we're
on the path to success.
(40:52):
But if that littletiny question, is
seen as a challenge.
now we're in a bad way.
Okay.
We're in a bad wayfrom the start.
We haven't even started yet.
But you started with simplyasking, you know about the
bet and so forth, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a different approachthan just being very cur with
somebody and just say, Hey,listen, that idea is terrible.
I mean, listen, also, Iwill tell you also like
(41:12):
I am curt with the peopleI can be curt with.
So you, you can beauthentic in both cases.
Mm-hmm.
But how you come across how, howyou present your authenticity.
Yeah.
It's veiled sometimes.
Listen, and, and true necessity.
This is a great final area thatwe landed at in the podcast
because it builds on everythingwe talked about earlier.
(41:35):
I'll go into category numberone because I have salespeople
in my company now that Ican tell them that is a bad
idea and we can't do that.
We don't have the systems,we don't have the expertise,
it would take a long time.
Yeah and I'll tellthem we can't do that.
I can only speak to themthat way 'cause we have a
deep personal relationshipand they're not gonna
be offended by it.
(41:55):
They will immediately changeand say, okay, I understand
you're saying that Brian, but Istill think this is important.
How can we pivot anddo something else?
And then we will changethe conversation to have
a productive conversation.
But I have traveled withthem, i've spent a lot of
time with the sales folks.
Same thing with the developmentteam, same thing with customer
service, same thing witheveryone in the company.
(42:17):
Executives up anddown the chain.
I spent a lot of time gettingto know the person so that when
I say I don't think this isgonna work, or I think this will
work, or, you know what I mean?
That kind of thing.
They hear it differently.
Yeah.
So flip side of that, right,is people that you really
haven't got that equity with interms of having a relationship
(42:38):
and they are senior to you.
You just start carefully,is what I'm saying, right?
You're still beingauthentic though.
It's not like you're sayingsomething that's disingenuous
just to appease them.
You're not doingthat by any stretch.
You should never do that,but you're positioning it
with the way you started whatevidence do you have, right?
(42:58):
Can we go get some,those kinds of things.
Yeah, that's a, that's a generalway to push back at them a
little bit instead of sayinghow high when they say jump.
In both cases though, I thinkyou are being authentic.
Like I said, in some cases,when you don't have that
relationship, which you canhave by the way, with even C
level after a certain period oftime, you can say that, right?
You can say, Hey, Mary, that'sa dumb idea, or whatever, but.
(43:21):
You don't do that beforeyou get to know that
person very well, right?
So I think both are are valid.
It is just what you choose when.
Yeah let's move through the end.
Like where does that leave us?
that's the wrap upof this podcast.
Where does that leave us?
Whether you're buildingrelationships developing
expertise, delivering results,brokering information in a
good way, transparent waychanging systems, meaning like
(43:41):
the agile coach, kind of likereforming the organization,
delivering results.
The real question is whetheryou're willing to do the hard
work of building the hard.
Slow work of building influenceand relationships over time
so that when you need themin the future, they're there.
And if there's anything inthis podcast, like there's
(44:02):
a lot of like not black andwhite kind of stuff that we
talked about today but yeah,you never know when you're
gonna need these relationships.
And again, people that listento this, that are team members
or product managers youdon't know when you're gonna
need these relationships.
I think that that's themain thing that I want
to get across today.
So continue doing itand consider it part
of your job because.
You will need it.
(44:23):
Exactly.
Yeah.
You don't know when,but you will need it.
And buildingrelationships is your job
there was enoughcontent that got.
Cut out of this podcast.
And also there was enoughstories that we cut out a
couple little stories, I'msure during the podcast.
We probably could doa part two on this.
Sure.
Yeah, I agree.
Very easily with more indepth tips and techniques
(44:43):
and stuff like that.
Yeah.
But I wanna have this one'cause we we've been having
a lot of product centrictopics in a long time.
Sure.
Yeah.
And I wanted to haveone that was more, on
your side of the aisle.
The aisle.
I like that.
Yeah.
My side of the aisle.
No, this is great.
I, we, we can definitelydo another one, but you
know, if you guys think weshould let us know in the
comments below and tell usabout what your experiences
(45:04):
have been with this topic.
And don't forget,I can subscribe,
Om, I wanna talk to you about adirty secret of agile coaches.
Ooh.
Okay.
We're, we're getting out allthe dirty secrets this episode.
You're expected todrive transformation.
I know we don't saytransformation anymore; you're
expected to drive towardsthe product operating model.
See what I did?
See what I did?
Oh, nice.
We're selling bookson the podcast.
You're also expectedto deliver results.
You're expected to changeorganizational behavior but you
(00:21):
can't fire anyone and you don'thave control of budget and you
don't have control of executivedecisions like they make those.
So, yeah, you're essentially amiddle manager except powerless,
I feel like one of those clownsin the circus with his hand
shackled in a burlap sack.
You're supposed to do all ofthese things, but you have
absolutely no authority.
That's right.
(00:41):
On anything.
That's right.
We want you to move mountainsand we don't give you
any tools to do it with.
So that's the question thenbecause there are coaches
out there that can do it.
Yeah.
Oh boy.
What a great topic.
Some savvy coaches can pulloff a lot but they've built
up a repertoire of theirskills over their career.
(01:03):
So we're gonna talk alittle bit more about.
What are some of the thingsthat are in your control even
without authority that youcan try to control your teams
into, into doing, but throughjust influence basically.
Let's start with the premisethat if you don't have any
authority, is there, isthere anything you can do?
Right?
(01:23):
We'll start there.
How do you do that?
Well, first of all, youare a catalyst, right?
As a change agent, andyou need to establish
trust with your team.
If they don't trust youto make changes you've
already lost, right?
So that's the first thingis establish trust and
credibility with them.
(01:44):
And then you can move.
Smaller, like rocksfirst, maybe pebbles.
Then borders before youget to the mountain.
So how do you, how do you dothis with a bunch of people
that you don't even knowwhen you first go in there,
but they all know that youhave absolutely no authority.
So you have no hire or fireauthority, you have no authority
(02:07):
to move team structure.
Eventually you'll get to thepoint where you can do this.
You can highly suggest youcan do all of those, but
they typically fall on deafears if you're first you
know, first into a, into anorganization trying to do this.
So let's start with trust.
First of all, howdo you build trust?
I was hoping you wouldask that question.
And you build thrust you,you build thrust, you
(02:28):
build, you build thrust by.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You turn, turn theairplane up to 11, you
turn the knob up to 11.
That's how, no,you, I don't know.
I should I cut that out?
I think I should leave that in.
Just leave it.
You build it by doing what mostpeople would probably tell you
in this category, which is inorder to approach influence by
authority, you need to buildstrong personal relationships.
(02:49):
And I just gave this networkingevent we were at last night.
I just gave this advice tosomebody who said, well,
I'm a scrum master and youknow, I'm having difficulties
and I dunno what to do.
And, my suggestion was, wellif you're a scrum master
that like, it tells me that.
You are a people person and thatyou like building relationships.
So what I would suggest isyou start cultivating deep
relationships with peopleall around the business
(03:11):
because you never know whenyour team is, got the call.
You know, pull that threadand ask for a favor, and
it's, it'd be way better ifit was coming from a friend,
coming from someone thatthey trusted because they
have a relationship with.
Now the team may be too busyto have those relationships,
but now, like your job isexclusively to have all
the relationships with allthe people in the business.
So that in the futureyou have that stored up.
(03:34):
So yeah.
I would add a little more tothat and say it's not just
building relationships mm-hmm.
In the business if you'rea matrix organization,
you should try and buildrelationships everywhere.
I mean, everywhere so itstarts with maybe at the
reception desk security.
Because your team mayneed you to come in on a
weekend one time to come inand maybe do a deployment
(03:55):
or something like that.
It helps if you have theseconnections, if you know people
well, or in my case where youwork outta government offices,
sometimes, like it reallyhelps the security people
Because you're coming in withguests every other week and
they're going through thesigning process or whatever.
It's much easier if youjust know all those people.
Yeah, I absolutelyagree with that.
So if you're coming in as ascrum master or Azure coach,
(04:16):
one of the first thingsyou should do is do a, what
I call a force field map.
Mm-hmm.
So it's, again, two by twotypical sort of BCG matrix.
Mm-hmm.
And just write down whoare the people that can
help you and who are thepeople that can hinder you.
Right?
So the the detractors,if you will, and put
their names in these.
(04:36):
You're not sharing thisdocument with anybody.
First of all, this is justfor your own use so you can
understand where things lie.
When it talks about strongand weak forces, it's just
about alliances, right?
Where do you need to formalliances and, three out of the
four corners, I'll tell you,just jumping ahead a bit, okay?
Three out of the fourcorners should be where you
need to build alliances.
(04:58):
And the fourth corner isnot where you don't need to.
It's just not now.
So you'll come back toit at some point, right?
When you start to getto know more people.
So net, net, all of them, youneed to build a alliance as much
as possible across all of them.
Like in the old arguing,agile back and forth here, the
kind of what you're outliningis the relationship first
(05:19):
method of building influence.
So I'm trying to think ifthere's a pushback on this.
I really can't think of anyin this broad category of
like, the more relationshipsthat you have banked, the
more effective that you'll be.
You know, like this usuallycomes out in another podcast
that we've talked about.
This comes out as communicationskill or other things.
Like it's notexactly that though.
No.
It's, this is so communicationskills can be learned.
(05:42):
We'll come back to whetherthis is something that you
can learn or is it innatecollaboration we've talked
about in previous podcasts.
Right.
But this is a bitmore than that.
When you're collaboratingyou need something from them.
They need something from you.
Mm-hmm.
But when you'rebuilding relationships,
there's none of that.
Well, here's a pushbackthat actually is a good one.
I mean, it's not good, butit's as good as you're gonna
(06:05):
get from me in this category,which is, you're building
these relationships, thereal substance isn't truly
you don't actually care.
You're just doing it to,oh, you know what I mean?
You're basicallymanipulating, right?
And like you people realizedthat you're not being authentic.
So it's like you're spendinga lot of time doing it.
You may as well not botherif you're, if you're
doing that right, you'rebasically faking it.
And, and don't, don't doit because you've wasted to
(06:28):
your point, you've wastedtime and energy getting
to the point where you'regetting nothing from it.
In fact, it's worse than notdoing it at all because people
will know that you are, you'refaking it and then you've got
no chance of getting that trust.
And the other.
Part of this is gonna be thosepeople that you will definitely
run into that say, oh, oh,that's can't you be like, well,
you're just talking to peoplecan, and you're not even really
(06:50):
necessarily about work stuff.
Can't, can't, isn'tthere important things
you could be doing?
You know, you're gonnarun into those people.
Yeah.
I try to just go aroundthose people because there's
nothing more important thanbuilding relationships right.
The time to build them isn'twhen you need something.
The time to build them isahead of time when you don't.
Just go ask people, walkby the security desk and
(07:13):
just say hi to them youknow, how's their day going?
Seriously?
I mean that, if you do that,what will happen is your name,
your face will stick in theirminds, and when you go in again,
they'll greet you with a smile.
Now they're already open.
With the possibility if youdid have a need you know, like
getting in the building afterhours, whatever it might be.
So the time to do it is not whenyou need something, it's before.
(07:36):
And also don't stop.
Just keep doing that is that theold, like one's the best time to
plant a tree like 20 years ago?
Is that, is that thatkind of like day one?
It kind of is itreally is day one.
Yeah.
When, when's the best times?
20 years ago, when, when's,when's the next best time?
It's like right now, today.
It's never too late okay.
If you choose to go throughthe process of building
your influence by buildingrelationships, which I think
we both will suggest, like onthe product management side,
(07:58):
I'm definitely, I'm only tryingto play devil's advocate here,
but on product management,that's just not a job you
can do without doing this.
So if you choose to doit, like to be authentic.
Be reciprocal.
Don't don't try to shortcutit, that kinda stuff.
This is not something youcan shortcut and I would
say, I dunno if you have anyparticular advice on like,
ways to go about it, likefocus on other people's,
(08:19):
like goals, challenges,you know what I mean?
'Cause you never, you also,like the other side of this is
you never know when you mightbe in a position to unblock
somebody that you didn'treally even realize that.
Exactly.
So you've heard me saythis many times with them.
This actually came up last time.
WIIFM or what's in it for me?
So think about it from theother person's perspective
(08:40):
of what's in it for them.
If you do that, you mightbe able to help them.
And so that, that's also truethat be prepared to give.
If not, just listen.
That goes a long way if youjust listen and then make a
suggestion, maybe somebodycan help them, right?
So you can kind ofconnect the dots.
That in and of itself is agood is a good thing and, and
a great help to people thatare asking you for things.
(09:03):
So, yeah.
I mean, the time wasyesterday and now, right?
Basically.
Yeah.
Yeah.
if we're gonna transition tothe next category, the, the
expertise and credibility asinfluence, this is, I kind of
hinted at this, you're gonna getthis from people, is like, well,
my expertise is my credibility.
I don't need to, I don'tneed to waste time.
(09:23):
On talking to people andhaving one-on-ones and the
Mark Zuckerbergs of theworld I don't need to spend
time having one-on-ones.
I am smart.
Look at me.
Anyway sorry, I, Iwas gonna curse there.
So that school of thoughtargues that deep expertise
and demonstrated competencecreates a natural authority.
So I don't need.
The the bank of influenceby connecting and making
(09:46):
all these personalrelationships that we talk
about already in the podcast.
I don't need that becauseI have the authority.
'cause I like people respect me.
'cause I'm amazing.
When you consistently providevaluable insights and solve
problems that other peoplecan't, then you become
the go-to person peopleseek your input regardless
of they like you or not.
And then now youhave the influence.
That's, that's, I II see you cringing.
(10:06):
Yeah, I see you cringing.
I, I I can understand, thethinking that because you're
an expert, people will.
Come to you, right?
But that's not the sameas having influence.
That's not the same at all.
That's simply, they'resimply coming to you for
your technical prowess.
Yeah.
For your, for your guidance.
Yeah.
Or, or because they have to,presumably because they have
(10:27):
to, because they didn't have to,they would go to somebody else
who does have influence, right.
And empathy and all of that.
So people like this, peoplewho think this way typically
don't like to share information.
And when they, when they findthemselves out there looking
for work for whatever reasonthey're gonna be in for a
surprise, rude awakening.
(10:49):
Yes, indeed.
Because the next organizationthey go to, depending on
the culture of that org,they may not fit at all.
No.
Well, you won't, you won't getthrough the interview process.
That's right.
Yes.
Because you'll comeacross as the know it all.
Yeah rather than somebodywho builds bridges yeah.
Unfortunately I've seen afew people known a few people
like that in my career.
Ah, yeah.
I mean, I'm telling you, evenexecutives don't like to talk
(11:11):
to these people, but they talkto them because they have to.
And these people typicallycannot talk at the same level.
So an example, right?
These people are in aposition of authority, so
they automatically findthemselves being invited
to things like conferences.
Sure.
Or user user conferencesit's find here trade
(11:31):
conferences, right?
Yeah.
So they're, they're thetrade conference at your
booth and in comes somebodyelse, potentially a prospect.
Mm-hmm.
And they want to talk.
And these peopletalk differently.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They talk tech talk.
Mm-hmm mm-hmm.
And they talk down to peoplethat don't understand the
technology that they understand.
None of that bodes well forthe organization as a whole.
(11:52):
Well there is you know, ifI'm gonna stay on the arguing
side of this one and thentake a shower after is, sorry.
there is some credenceto technical expertise.
Like if I'm thinking aboutagile coaches, for example
like I want, on my programI want an agile coach that's
been there before on a programof several hundred people.
And is not gonna balk at leadinga program retrospective with
(12:16):
leadership up and down a chain.
That like titlesdon't mean anything.
Like I, I'm looking for someonewith, I'm looking for the seen
it all seen it all done at all.
Agile coach who is not shakenby anybody, challenging
him, that kind of person.
So there is some credencehere to be, to say when I
like when the pressure's on,I'm looking for that person.
That has the ability to perform.
(12:37):
Yeah.
First of all, I thinkwhat you're describing is
a seasoned professional.
Right.
But also we don'thire anyone over 27.
So, I mean, we have a toughtime hiring here at Brandon sza.
Right off consulting people.
We look for people thatare under 27 with 20
years experience in aithat's called more energy.
That's what it's called.
That was E Real, that wasere I'll never stop bringing
up in a podcast like that.
(12:57):
That's what I was told onetime when hiring Brian,
you gotta find peoplewith quote, more energy.
More energy.
I was like, oh,you mean younger?
No, of course not.
I would never say thatbecause it's illegal.
Wink.
There's a difference betweenthe scenario you just
described, somebody who'sbeen around the block Yeah.
Or been around many blocksand they can not bat an
eyelid standing in front ofa town hall of 300 people.
(13:20):
Sure.
Whatever it might be.
But the previous discussion wejust had was about people having
the expertise and hoarding it.
Right.
Because they wannaappear meritocratic yeah
this is what I bring.
Right, right.
Yeah.
And you need to come to me.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Somebody who's an agilecoach or a business agility,
person would say, I'mnot the bottleneck here.
(13:42):
Right.
I don't provide the solutions.
I wanna co-create withyou an environment where
you can find the solution.
Mm-hmm.
So I think there's adifference there, because
in the latter case, you'renot hoarding anything.
You don't even havethat deep expertise.
Yeah.
You do in soft skills,facilitation skills,
all of those things.
(14:03):
Mm-hmm.
But people aren't lookcoming to you to learn that
or grab that from you theydon't necessarily do that.
But let's say you are aenterprise architect who
understands database schemaand whatever else it might be.
So people need to come to you.
Yeah so I, I think there'sa difference there.
Agile coaches and the theyare all the more eager
to share their knowledge.
Mm-hmm so they'll go toa team and say how about
(14:25):
talk to a scrum master?
You need to, you needto facilitate, but let
me show you some tips.
Mm-hmm the other case,however, is I'm just gonna
give you just enough.
Yeah and then the rest you'llhave to squeeze outta me.
Yeah.
You know, anotherthing that sorry.
It bugs me because It's true.
That's why it bugs me,is that, being Right.
It doesn't necessarily guaranteethat you're gonna be heard.
(14:46):
Yes, yes.
It's very true.
So have you come acrosspeople like that?
Yeah.
That are always right?
Yes and people say, oh, yeah,yeah, that's Mr. Know-it-all,
Ms. Know-it.All, and we justgonna ignore what they say.
Mm-hmm.
Because you only have tobe wrong one time and down
goes your credibility.
Yeah.
But you're notworried about that.
'cause you're focused, you'reriding your expertise all the
(15:06):
time so when people see you fallyou know, in their eyes because
you failed at some point, evenif it's not like an object
failure you lose the trust.
Yeah.
That's the bottom line.
The only other thing aboutexpertise and we'll probably
cover this later so I don'twanna harp on it now, is I've
been in a lot of organizationswhere expertise starts as a
cross-functional skill andthen it turned into a silo.
(15:29):
You know, I, I think of likeall the, I think of like when I
work with great ui UX folks theystart with one team and they're
cross-functional and they'rejust like part of the team.
And then they get mo becausethey're effective, they
get moved off that one teaminto like a shared services
model and then they becomecompletely ineffective.
'cause now they're servingsix teams and they can't do
any real meaningful work.
(15:51):
And the company won'thire more people 'cause
they're not quite sure howto incent that position.
'cause again, you'vegotta you've gotta
incent every position.
Otherwise, oh my goodness.
What would peopledo if I didn't?
You know, put a carrotand the stick in front
of 'em or whatever.
Yeah.
This is one of the disadvantagesof a matrix org because you do
have this situation where youhave shared services, models,
(16:12):
pockets of expertise that arejust lent out to the teams.
Just enough.
So they're typically lentout for their hard skills.
Right.
They're not lent out toinstill knowledge and
ability capability, I guessin, in amongst those teams.
They don't have time todo that so they're gonna
just go in there, in yourexample, knock out some ui,
(16:34):
go right back and so theteams are left with a UI that.
They got.
But if they have to changethat, or if they have to come
up with a new one, you're gonnago back to that group again.
Chance says, oh, you'll findsomebody else going it to you.
Yeah, yeah and now youstart all over again, right?
Yes.
And that, that'sexactly what happens.
And also you nailed it whenyou said you'll knock out some
(16:55):
ui and that's not what I needfrom them because I've got
a senior front end engineer.
They're pretty good atUI design, they've seen a
lot of different designs.
And I've been coupled witha lot of mobile developers
that are really smartabout industry trends and
what's on the forefront.
So, the UI is not what I need.
I need the systemicview of the ux, the flow
through the whole system.
The walking through of thecustomer experience is what
(17:16):
you're looking for there, right?
Yeah.
And that, that you can onlyget that when you go deep.
Correct.
So you need time and investmentof that person to come in and
stay embedded with the teamfor an extended period of time.
So in this case, the expertiseactually has done the opposite.
Your deep expertise becauseof bad org design has now
theoretically your deep orgexpertise, should make it so
(17:37):
that you are respected and yourrelationships get deeper and
like more people come outtathe woodwork to like la your,
the, the meritocracy, right?
But sure.
But in actuality what'shappened is now, like
everyone thinks you're flaky.
You never stay on one thing longenough, you pivot but, but it's
like, it's an effect of like,everyone wanting to use your
skill and the organizationaldesign is kind of undermining.
(17:58):
So like in that case, we goright back to the very first
category is like, well whatcan you do There is like, if
you're connecting with peoplein and outside of like your
day-to-day work like that,what's going to come through is.
Hey, my skills and demandin the company is like not
willing to pay for more people.
So this is, I'm doing the bestI can and then you'll treat them
like a person doing the best Ican, being overwhelmed, not this
(18:20):
person is flaky and whatever.
You know without therelationship, you'll see
that object of a personrather than the actual person
who's like, that's right.
Well, the company doesn'twanna buy another they don't
wanna have, buy more time,so what are you gonna do?
You're gonna get a crappy job.
Yeah.
I have nothing moreto add to that.
Absolutely correct.
De personifies yourcontribution completely.
I'm not sure about thetakeaway in this category.
Build T-shaped expertise.
(18:42):
Deep knowledge in your domain,plus broad understanding
of adjacent areas,sharing knowledge through
teaching and mentoring tomultiply your influence
beyond direct application.
That thinking is alittle bit older now.
Yeah, yeah.
Now people are talking aboutmha, believe it or not.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Yeah, that's whatthey're talking about.
They're saying, so you have.
Pretty solid skills.
(19:02):
. Those are the, I guessthey're verticals if you
do the m in a certain font.
But, you can ramp up anddown quickly is what the, the
down and the upward anglesof the mr. Oh, and I, I, I
can't relate it to what we'retalking about necessarily.
If I had a nickel for everytime that I had a load of font
locally just to be able to useit, people hoarding though,
they'd be o-shaped, right?
Yeah, because they containeverything within the circle.
(19:24):
Everyone's addingso many shapes.
Okay, so expertise, I get it.
Expertise can get youinvited to the table.
But the next point we're gonnatalk about is value creation
and results delivery becausethe two sides of this one are
the, the pragmatic approachto influence, which focuses
on consistently deliveringmeasurable value, which by the
way, I'll tell you this, thistopic right now, I'm saving
(19:46):
for a whole separate podcast.
And the title of that podcastis if you are not visible,
you are not valuable.
Question mark.
Like that's, I already havethe working title of that
podcast 'cause I think it'sa strong, strong podcast
that we need to talk about.
Yeah.
That idea that's stuck inpeople's minds is like,
well, if you're not out thereconstantly marketing yourself,
like you're worthless.
I'm like, Ooh it sounds likeyou want to get into a fight.
(20:09):
I don't know if I believe that.
So the argument for thisone is simple if you make
people's lives better andhelp them achieve their goals.
So results are important, theresults and metrics obsessed
culture of like corporateAmerica, the what lends
itself to short-term thinkinglike that it that seems to
undermine this so like, we're,we're obsessed with creating
value, , none of us aregonna be in here two years.
(20:31):
So who, who cares?
Listen at the end of the day,if you are an individual who
cares about improving yourcraft, right, you should care.
It doesn't matter if you thinkyou're not gonna stick around.
There's greenerpressures everywhere.
At least it appears that way.
So you shoulddefinitely care, right?
And.
As far as like, okay, ifyou are helping somebody,
(20:53):
that's one thing.
'cause it's overt, right?
You are there, they're there,there's an interface there.
Yeah.
But after that, you peel awayand people that you helped
at some point later couldbe talking to other people
and say, Hey, that, youknow that Brian in product.
Right?
Right.
He's, he helped us out.
If you've got an idea orif you, if you're vexing
(21:14):
on something, talk to him.
Yep.
You won't necessarily hear that.
Yeah.
Yourself.
Yeah.
You won't, but you'llget a random slack ping
in the middle of day.
Yeah exactly.
From someone thatyou don't know.
You don't know.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So when those kinds of thingsstart happening, you know
you're doing something rightbut you can't, you can't set
out thinking that's the endresult you are shooting for.
(21:34):
'Cause you'll just be.
It's, it's noise in themiddle of your workday.
So it's like, you're just like,oh, what can I help you with?
Let me go.
Oh, go.
Let me give you the smallestthing you can to go away.
And then eventually it turnedinto a big thing, and then
that turns into a relationship.
But it's just like extrastuff that makes you
busier during the workday.
And you won't realizeit, , maybe now people
listen to this podcast.
Now we'll gain theself-awareness to realize that
like, that is an indicatorthat one of those seeds you
(21:57):
put out there has now, likegrown, is strung a sprout.
Yes.
Now it's grown.
It's a, it's a tree and it'slike growing seeds of its own.
Yeah.
And you know, the word is out.
You're doing your keepdoing what you're doing.
That stuff happens to me alot where people ping me for
help, where it's like, it'snot gonna help me accomplish
any of the stuff that, likemy boss is looking for.
And it's not gonna help melike, directly do stuff that
my team is working on rightaway but it's stuff that
(22:20):
I really should stop andmake time to help people.
Because if I like wheel wayback, like 30,000 feet way
up, then I would have thehigh level view to understand
that like, oh, thesepeople are approaching me.
'cause other people said,oh, I was successful when
I went to Brian and Right.
Maybe you can talk tohim about this thing.
And maybe he doesn't knowexactly about it, but
(22:40):
you know, he, he's smart.
He will workthrough it with you.
That kind of stuff.
Yeah.
I mean if that kind ofstuff happens to you, maybe
you don't even realize it.
Maybe now that you've heardit on the podcast it'll
ring through that, you know?
Yeah.
And if it happens toyou repeatedly, then it
builds on itself, right?
Yeah.
So that's the reward for me iswhen people call you that you
don't even know and they'lljust say, so and so said you
(23:01):
helped him out two years ago,and now I've come across a
slightly different issue.
Can you help me?
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it doesn't contribute to whatyou're doing for your boss, but.
You are actually helpingyour organization.
You know, the interestingthing about this one is , I
think about this like latercareer, it's harder to find
an example to put my finger onearly career where I was just
(23:24):
a QA analyst, QA engineer,working on a team big team or
whatever, like knocking out amulti month project that the
project management came downwith the big book of pages and
like with UML diagrams and stufflike that from back in the day.
You never saw the user, younever heard from the user.
You didn't know if whatyou did affected anyone.
But you still in, even inthat environment, you had
some developers and QApeople and stuff like that,
(23:46):
that, went over and above.
And did a great job, nobodyever saw, I mean the people
to your left and right.
Saw it, no customer ever sawany results from your work.
'cause like that old wayof working, you know?
Where you went months untilanyone could inspect your
work as opposed to like,what we talk about all the
time is like, oh, you, you'realways working directly for
(24:08):
somebody in short increments.
You know, the new way ofworking that is called the
product operating model.
That's what I'm calling it.
It has nothing to do with thenamesake of this podcast at all.
Totally different.
But if you're working that way,like the structure lends itself
to what we're talking about now,just the structure of, Hey, I'm
delivering a small subset offeatures to you like personally.
(24:33):
In a very short turnaroundtime, and then you can tell
us what you think or you know,what you like, what you don't
like, what you think about it.
Yeah.
And then we'll change what we'redoing like that, like this,
because the other side of thisis the people that will say
like, well, your metrics arewhat people are judging you on.
So like, the people side ofit, like the, the like customer
happiness or whatever likeif your customer happiness
metrics are not factoredinto your, raises and , your
(24:56):
promotion at the end of theyear and stuff like that.
Yeah.
Then like, they're not real,, , but the numbers that you're
judged on, like they are real.
So you need to do thoseor otherwise you'll
never give, get ahead.
That's absolutely true.
I often think about those poorpeople that are at the end
of a phone call or chat awaysupporting customers, right?
People don't think aboutthose people necessarily
(25:16):
those people have a directinterface with frustrated
customers typically.
And they do a prettygood job on the whole of
understanding their issues.
So it doesn't matter whatyour role is, if you're
trying to figure out what isreally troubling the customers
go sit with your customersupport reps for a bit.
And you'll learna lot from that.
And then you work withproduct sales, whoever to
kind of augment the product.
(25:38):
Yeah, if you are not incentedto do that, why would you?
Well, I say that all thetime on the podcast if
you're not traveling withyour sales folks and talking
to prospects and doingprospecting with them you know,
I mean, what are you doing?
You're just talking to thecustomers that you already have
committed buying your product.
Like that's a, I mean,that's a limited scope.
Very much so.
So yeah, there's a lot here.
(25:58):
I mean, we could stay on thistopic, the whole rest of the
podcast, focus on leadingindicators of value rather
than lagging indicators.
Which is kind of, we talkeda little bit about that.
I feel we could stay onthis one for a long time.
But I wanna move us alongjust because we got a couple
more points here to talkabout document and communicate
your contributions clearly.
But always share creditwith your team and try
(26:18):
to be expanding thatsustainable influence.
So there's a bunch ofstuff that we talked
about in this category.
Well, let's see.
Yeah.
I mean, long term isthe key here, right?
Sustainable.
And you're not in itfor credit, right?
How, how do you knowyou are winning?
It's not just you as anindividual solo person.
Enable your team toget those wins, right?
(26:39):
And then the teams willtalk about you 'cause you're
the ones that actuallyinfluence them to get to that
position where they can win.
So results open doors, likewe already talked about
that but let's pivot tothe dark side real quick.
Let's , just take a minuteor two to explore this
for me because I needto explore this one.
Remember the old Phoenixproject or the dude that
was like the go-to, I don'tremember what his name was.
(26:59):
Brett.
Brett or Brent or somethinglike it was, yeah, yeah.
Possibly, yeah.
The opposite of how towin friends and influence
people here is like what theworst people do with this,
which is the informationhoarding , so the approach
of becoming indispensablethrough information access
and strategic positioning.
So I have talked many times onthe podcast about a particular
(27:22):
developer I worked with in thepast who was very good at this.
Remember , the old reportstory where it was like he
had the reporting databaseand you had to just go to him.
He would nevergive anyone access.
You had to go to him topull any report you want,
and then he would like,take out all the data that
made development look bad.
Whenever he would give reports.
That's information hoarding.
Some people excelat this, right?
(27:43):
We've come across thosepeople in our lives already.
So that, that's howhe kept himself in the
middle influence for him.
Was being the person that youmust go to, the gatekeeper
might I add, which isinteresting because modern
organizations should be pricingexactly the opposite of that.
Yeah.
Transparency you mean?
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Yeah.
(28:03):
Transparency.
People that buildagency within the org.
But no, we've come acrosspeople that will not share
information with you.
Yeah.
And they will havemultiple reasons.
They'll throw any numberof reasons at you.
It's very complicated.
It's like, whatdoes that even mean?
I understand technology, right.
But it would be, oh,it's too fragile.
If you touch it, it's toorisky for you to touch it.
(28:25):
It's like there's allthese different things
they'll come up with.
That was his excuse bythe way, is like oh, we
can't have you hitting theproduction reputation tape.
Something that it's very,it's very sensitive and
you you could bring it downwith a bad sequel query.
You don't know thetable structure.
I'll just get youthe data you need.
That was, I don't know whatthis is the ASMR version of it.
I dunno why I that, I mean, thisis solid gold right here because
(28:50):
I, I'll, I will tell you there,there's going to be, at some
point on this video, there'sgonna be somebody who had the
same experience that I had withthe same like, disingenuous this
is a disingenuous person Yeah.
Dealing with.
Yeah.
But the this is a commonarchetype that people will.
People will encountermost definitely if you,
(29:10):
if you've worked for morethan a couple years, I'm
sure you've come across atleast one person like this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They're unfortunately,they're very common and
you can tell, right?
You, I mean, these peoplearen't going to cooperate
with you right off the bat.
You go to them with a requestand they'll just say, go
formulate the request properly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like, okay.
Can you help me?
What, what about this doyou want us to change?
(29:32):
Look, we're gonna, we're gonnatake a tangent on the podcast.
It's been a long timesince I monologue though.
This is this is a nice thingabout LLMs and the agentic
workflows of the futurethat are emerging now is
everybody has a client.
I mean, everybody has anMCP server that you can
pull a client to, right?
Sure.
So like, Elasticsearch has anMCP server, I'm sure Postgres,
if they don't already, they'regoing to have an MCP server
(29:53):
where you don't need to know thetable structure and the schema
and all the table you don'tneed to know in elastic search,
you don't need to know all thedifferent fields the hundreds
of fields and the differentspecific types of query.
You just need to pull a client,pull down the MCP server, have
access granted to you, and thenyou just threw an LLM ask it,
Hey, I need to know this data.
(30:14):
And then it figures it out.
These types of artificialbarriers, these artificial silos
that have been built, they'relike, oh, you want stats?
About production.
Ooh.
Well, we're on Elasticsearch.
You don't have Elasticsearchquery knowledge.
You gotta come to me because I'mthe resident expert who knows
all the data scheme and I'vegot the, the old enterprise,
(30:36):
the relational diagram orwhatever it used to be.
I don't remember.
ERDs.
EERD Is that what theanti relationship diet?
Yeah, yeah.
Entity relationship.
Da, yeah.
The old database.
Like all the tables.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I've got I've, that arrows fromforeign key to foreign key's.
That's right.
I've got that in mycube, and I'm the only
one that knows all that.
And, oh, that's outdated.
You don't know the latestchanges you don't like
(30:56):
the future in the future.
You won't like that, that isnot power anymore because all of
the technology just connects it.
So like you don't need toknow all that deep stuff.
You can still go findit and figure it out.
Certainly that's not going away.
But for the casual of the skilllevel of the casual observer
is what I'm saying, is beenelevated up to a point where
(31:18):
like the, your gatekeepingnow , it becomes obvious
that is what you are doing.
I agree with that.
Resistance is futilefor those people.
I think because anyone canlearn how to query using,
using prompts, right?
Yeah.
So anyone can do that.
These people's power, if youwill, is diluting by the day.
(31:39):
So it won't be long before you,you won't even have to go to
these people to find out stuffwell, and what will they do?
I mean, it was, well,first of all, it was always
toxic what they were doing.
No doubt.
You know?
So what will they do?
Like go find anotherplace to hide.
Like maybe find anotherorganization that is
like less technologicallyadvanced to hide in it.
It's gonna be increasingly hardto find, but yes, at some point
(32:00):
that will be too difficult.
Yes, so then it'll be toolate for these people to
pivot to anything becausethey left it like that.
Right?
Too late.
You know, the other thingabout like team lead, like
a good team lead, likethey become the connector
between organizational silos.
So like you and I would lookat an organizational silo and
be like, well, that's bad youneed to break that down and
have cross-functional teamsand not have these silos.
I've been coupled with somereally excellent team leads
(32:23):
or solution architects,like those kind of people.
They find a way to connectdifferent teams and bring
teams together despite thedisadvantages of the org
structure i'm trying not to makethis into a org design podcast,
which we will have at one point.
Well, I hope so.
But there, there's that too.
I mean individual teamsdeliver those people that
glue the program together,they don't deliver anything.
(32:45):
So Well, they enablethe teams, right?
They they do.
But again, if we don't havemetrics promoting agile coaches
and their ability to, what,what they allow teams to do,
we definitely don't have itfor the solution architect.
So the enterprise architects,those type of people either.
so yeah, I like becomingthe go-to person, you know?
Like it's a good job toexpand your influence if
(33:08):
you're not abusing it.
And if you're the go-toperson for whatever reason,
you happen to have arrivedat that situation now, right?
Yeah.
Maybe think about spreadingsome of that knowledge.
Yeah.
You know, withyour teams, right.
That should be rewarded bythe org rather than this
person is elevated to theirhighest level of incompetence.
Incompetence, yeah.
(33:28):
Yeah.
So if you are one ofthose people, yeah, by all
means, start sharing thatinformation with people.
All right, let's move on.
So the takeaway here useinformation, access to
facilitate better decisions.
Rather than controlling them.
Correct?
Yes.
This facilitation, we,we could have spent a lot
more time on this podcasttalking about facilitation.
Sure.
But again, there's gonna bestuff that comes outta this,
(33:50):
that goes to another podcastthat's on a similar vein.
So I don't, like, maybethere's a lot of stuff here.
I don't know.
I gotta think about it.
In the editing, I'll thinkabout what I want to take
focus on being the synthesizerrather than a gatekeeper.
Yeah.
Always work towards makinginformation more accessible,
not less more accessible,more transparent, not less so.
(34:10):
Those are a few takeaways here.
So this category was aboutlike the disingenuous way
that information can give youa seat at the table and the,
the category we're going into.
The final debate thatwe're gonna have our
last point for the night,that's what we're saying.
That's right.
It's nighttime, no matterwhere you are right
now, it's nighttime.
The final debate centersaround authenticity versus
strategic influence.
(34:31):
Should you focus on beinggenuinely yourself, letting
influence flow naturally fromyour authentic leadership?
Or should you strategicallyadapt your approach
based on what works fordifferent stakeholders?
This is a complicated onefor the last category, so
I don't know how fast we'regonna buzz through this, but
as a, oh, I think it was theStakeholder communication
podcast that we did.
(34:52):
We said you have to adapt yourleadership style to the people
that you're leading, and thatis wrapped up in this one.
But I, I mean, to bringit up in the sassies most
disingenuous method possibleby saying like, you're having
one-on-ones and you're saying,Hey, buddy, what's going on?
You don't you're not,you don't really mean it.
(35:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're doing it strategically tohave to make yourself seen as.
You know what I mean?
Like, you're not reallytrying to help oh, it
sounds like you've gotsome bad things going on.
Well, that sucks kid.
I hope somebody saws it for you.
Yeah, I'm out.
I gotta get a coffeeand go play golf man up.
Yeah, no, so I think in thisone, this isn't a binary
situation where you'realways one or the other.
(35:35):
I think you really need to adaptto the situation and the people
that you're dealing with we'vedealt with some very sticky
stakeholders management style.
And it doesn't matter whatyou do with them, with the
soft skills, you're justnot gonna make any headway.
So for those kinds of people,I've been guilty of, I'm
not saying manipulating, butstrategically positioning
(35:56):
my approach okay.
And that's because, look, I onlyhave so many hours in a day.
I'm gonna make sureI win and this is how
I win but for others.
I'm there for them withoutanything like what's in
it for me personally.
Yeah.
I'm just there tounderstand, listen to them.
And if I can't help, I canat least lend a shoulder.
(36:17):
So there's pushback in this one,, just so I don't bury the lead
here, let me lead by saying myleadership style is completely
authentic and if peoplewant to ask like, Hey Brian,
where do I stand with this?
Or, Hey Brian, what'syour opinion on this?
I will tell them, and itwill be brutally honest, and
some people don't like that.
Some people do not like myunfiltered initial take, but
(36:40):
it is, it's my initial takeon things and when I find
out more, I'll change myopinion and sometimes that
rubs people to the wrong way.
The opposite side of that,which is very legitimate,
says different stakeholdersrespond to different
influence styles differently.
And one size cannot fit all.
And your authenticity is notan excuse for, for not like
(37:03):
shuffling, you know whatI mean, not changing your
personality or style to dealwith a different person.
So if you were in charge ofall the product managers in
the organization home, right?
And like you came to me andyou're like, what do you
think about this idea, Brian?
And I'm like, this idea sucks.
Like you, it's fullof assumptions.
You haven't vetted anything.
Like if you go down this idea,like you're gonna waste six
(37:23):
months of the UX time andwhatnot why would you do that?
No customers ever askedfor it it's terrible.
And then you go to anotherproduct manager they might
tiptoe around a little bit morethan I would.
Yeah.
And now you're gonna havea tough time consolidating
that feedback together onan equal playing field,
not realizing like not, nottaking like personalities
into consideration.
You do have to bear inmind who you're speaking
(37:45):
with, right, right.
And, and kind of craftyour messaging accordingly
so here, here's thething to, to remember.
You can be completely 100%authentic all the time.
Yeah.
And you'll be successfulmost of the time.
Yeah.
But not all of the time.
So the times when you're notsuccessful will be with those
people that really don't want tohear what you have to say, but
(38:07):
they're gonna ask you and nowwhen you say, well, this idea
sucks that's not what they wantto hear what they want to hear
is, your idea is good, but...
I would just say, haveyou considered this?
Right if you haven't, youmight, and then we can talk
again maybe in next week.
I mean, you just summarizemy career right there.
There are certain peoplethat they don't want to
hear that their idea is bad.
(38:27):
Like they just flat out so youneed to communicate with them
in a way you need to changeyour communication style to
maintain your core principles.
But to communicate with themin a way where you change their
diaper gently you, you, sorry,that was, that was uncalled for.
That was unnecessary youtreat their e like you put
(38:49):
a nice pillow under theirego, so there's no chance.
Of it being bruised in theconfrontation that happens
when they're for some reasonasking for your opinion,
which by the way, they'regonna disregard anyway.
And you know, they'regonna do that when you
go into the conversation.
But again it's the, I wouldargue here, you are not
(39:09):
being like, there is a levelof authenticity that you
have to throw a veneer overto deal with people like that.
Maybe it's just anorganization thing.
Be like, well, Brian, that'sjust your organization and like,
if you're in that organization,you gotta play that game,
quote, play that game.
And that's the way it is.
My arguing side of this oneis you're, you're either
(39:30):
being authentic or you're not.
Obviously it's not blackand white in reality.
Yeah.
But for the purpose of thepodcast the people that can be
completely authentic at workwith everyone and say like,
Hey, I don't like that idea.
Because the first time thatyou shout somebody down
that says, I don't likethat idea in a meeting.
Like, again, I've beenon development teams
20 years in a career.
(39:50):
Yeah.
I've seen a lot of testers,developers, shouted down by
product owners or VPs or C-levelexecutives when they raise
this tiniest concern and thatperson never speaks up again.
So, yes, absolutely.
But here's the otherside of it, right.
So what happens when somebody,let's say at the C level Yeah.
(40:10):
Asks you for something and, andyou know, their idea is stupid.
Yeah tell 'em thatupfront in this case.
Keep that resume updated.
Oh, I wouldn't tell 'emthey already is stupid.
I feel very lucky.
I work in product management.
I can say like, isthis something you're
willing to bet on?
Meaning is this an assumptionand you think that if we do
(40:31):
X then we'll get this result?
Or do you know?
And if you don't know, wouldyou mind running this test
against a customer or wouldyou mind our team meeting with
the customer to do something?
Meaning would you mind ifthe UX person or whatever,
like test the idea.
And if that doesn't bruisetheir ego, then we're
on the path to success.
(40:52):
But if that littletiny question, is
seen as a challenge.
now we're in a bad way.
Okay.
We're in a bad wayfrom the start.
We haven't even started yet.
But you started with simplyasking, you know about the
bet and so forth, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a different approachthan just being very cur with
somebody and just say, Hey,listen, that idea is terrible.
I mean, listen, also, Iwill tell you also like
(41:12):
I am curt with the peopleI can be curt with.
So you, you can beauthentic in both cases.
Mm-hmm.
But how you come across how, howyou present your authenticity.
Yeah.
It's veiled sometimes.
Listen, and, and true necessity.
This is a great final area thatwe landed at in the podcast
because it builds on everythingwe talked about earlier.
(41:35):
I'll go into category numberone because I have salespeople
in my company now that Ican tell them that is a bad
idea and we can't do that.
We don't have the systems,we don't have the expertise,
it would take a long time.
Yeah and I'll tellthem we can't do that.
I can only speak to themthat way 'cause we have a
deep personal relationshipand they're not gonna
be offended by it.
(41:55):
They will immediately changeand say, okay, I understand
you're saying that Brian, but Istill think this is important.
How can we pivot anddo something else?
And then we will changethe conversation to have
a productive conversation.
But I have traveled withthem, i've spent a lot of
time with the sales folks.
Same thing with the developmentteam, same thing with customer
service, same thing witheveryone in the company.
(42:17):
Executives up anddown the chain.
I spent a lot of time gettingto know the person so that when
I say I don't think this isgonna work, or I think this will
work, or, you know what I mean?
That kind of thing.
They hear it differently.
Yeah.
So flip side of that, right,is people that you really
haven't got that equity with interms of having a relationship
(42:38):
and they are senior to you.
You just start carefully,is what I'm saying, right?
You're still beingauthentic though.
It's not like you're sayingsomething that's disingenuous
just to appease them.
You're not doingthat by any stretch.
You should never do that,but you're positioning it
with the way you started whatevidence do you have, right?
(42:58):
Can we go get some,those kinds of things.
Yeah, that's a, that's a generalway to push back at them a
little bit instead of sayinghow high when they say jump.
In both cases though, I thinkyou are being authentic.
Like I said, in some cases,when you don't have that
relationship, which you canhave by the way, with even C
level after a certain period oftime, you can say that, right?
You can say, Hey, Mary, that'sa dumb idea, or whatever, but.
(43:21):
You don't do that beforeyou get to know that
person very well, right?
So I think both are are valid.
It is just what you choose when.
Yeah let's move through the end.
Like where does that leave us?
that's the wrap upof this podcast.
Where does that leave us?
Whether you're buildingrelationships developing
expertise, delivering results,brokering information in a
good way, transparent waychanging systems, meaning like
(43:41):
the agile coach, kind of likereforming the organization,
delivering results.
The real question is whetheryou're willing to do the hard
work of building the hard.
Slow work of building influenceand relationships over time
so that when you need themin the future, they're there.
And if there's anything inthis podcast, like there's
(44:02):
a lot of like not black andwhite kind of stuff that we
talked about today but yeah,you never know when you're
gonna need these relationships.
And again, people that listento this, that are team members
or product managers youdon't know when you're gonna
need these relationships.
I think that that's themain thing that I want
to get across today.
So continue doing itand consider it part
of your job because.
You will need it.
(44:23):
Exactly.
Yeah.
You don't know when,but you will need it.
And buildingrelationships is your job
there was enoughcontent that got.
Cut out of this podcast.
And also there was enoughstories that we cut out a
couple little stories, I'msure during the podcast.
We probably could doa part two on this.
Sure.
Yeah, I agree.
Very easily with more indepth tips and techniques
(44:43):
and stuff like that.
Yeah.
But I wanna have this one'cause we we've been having
a lot of product centrictopics in a long time.
Sure.
Yeah.
And I wanted to haveone that was more, on
your side of the aisle.
The aisle.
I like that.
Yeah.
My side of the aisle.
No, this is great.
I, we, we can definitelydo another one, but you
know, if you guys think weshould let us know in the
comments below and tell usabout what your experiences
(45:04):
have been with this topic.
And don't forget,I can subscribe,
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