AA234 - When Teams Refuse Coaching, What Works, And When to Walk Away - Arguing Agile

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're assigned to coacha team that clearly

(00:02):
doesn't want your help.
The person that hiredyou insists it's
your job to makethem want coaching.
So do you pushforward, do you refuse?
Are there hurt feelingsgo to go around?
I would say the badthing to do in this
situation would be tojust take the paycheck
and cash it and nodyour head and phone

(00:22):
in the coaching.
I'm not saying I'venot seen that before.
I was gonna say if Ihad a dollar for every
time I've seen that.
You can do it maybeone or two times in
your career, then you.
Known for that.
Well, that's the restof the agenda for today.
So if you're not,that's a great agenda.
If you're not interestedin coaching thanks for
coming to the podcastLike, and subscribe.
There you go.

(00:42):
Coaching unwilling teamslike any team, right?
Not just a software team.
not just like a scrummaster or agile coach.
I'm talking about justcoaching because there
are books written by, Imean, probably the most
famous book, sorry, I'veactually read this book.
I need to go lookat it for a second.
Coaching Agile Teams.
No, no, no, no.
Oh, good book.
That's a great book.
Good book.
Good book.
Bill Campbell, I've readthe Bill Campbell book.
What was the thatbook is not new.

(01:05):
That goes back a long way.
No, oh, A Trillion DollarCoach by our, our
friend Eric Schmidt,our friend Eric Schmidt.
That's right.
And Jonathan Rosenbergand Alan Eagle, the
Trillion Dollar Coach.
That was the book that I read.
So people up in theRarefied Air, Steve
Jobs, Eric Schmidt,our friend Eric Schmidt
they have coaches.
So you're gonna tell me.
You're so awesome.
You don't need a coach.

(01:26):
And they have coaches.
Yeah.
So let's, let's kindof you know, take the,
the layers apart onthis flaky pastry here.
I'm gonna need youto work on Sundays.
Yeah.
So listen, this isa really good topic.
I feel like, not justfor people that are
in the coaching space,but people that are
in the space wherethey've had coaching

(01:46):
or, or they wishthey're coaching, right?
So let's talk about this.
The book that Ireferenced earlier, by
the way Lyssa Atkinsbook coaching Agile
teams, mostly as a titlesuggests, talks about
agile teams, right?
But coaching.
Isn't just restrictedto agile teams.
Right.
So we're gonna start there.
with the teams mostpeople can relate
to in the audience.

(02:07):
And then we'll kindof go to other areas
where coaching isalso prevalent.
So what happens moreoften than not is
there is some sort ofa trigger that somebody
gets a hold off andsays, Hey, listen, we
need coaching here.
Right.
We're not doing things right.
And so that takes a number ofdifferent forms.
Mm-hmm.
Typically it is notcoming from the teams

(02:28):
themselves becausethey are heads
down every sprint.
They feel like they'redoing a good job.
They don't knowthey need coaching necessarily.
There are alwaysexceptions to what I'm
saying, but for the mostpart, that's true in my
experience, at least.
What happens rather is this.
Somebody in managementleadership, they look at
the team that is doingwhat they're doing and

(02:48):
say, we could do more.
So we need coachingbecause I've just
talked to my peers at aconference somewhere or
whatever, and they tellme they have coaching
for their teams.
So we need coaching, right?
So we contact a coachand ask them to come
in, and that's typicallyhow that happens.
If you're in a largeorganization, you

(03:09):
may have teams thatare performing better
than other teamsfor whatever reason.
But they are everyteam's unique.
So then it's thedesire on the part of
management to elevatethe performance of the
team that is in the airopinion at least, is
not performing as well.
So they reach out toa coach and it's a
team coach in thisdiscussion right now.
And they say this team hasgreat potential.

(03:31):
They need to do better.
Yeah.
Can you come and coach them?
If you come into ateam, how do you know
they need coaching?
You need somevalidation upfront.
Well, I think theimplication of this
podcast is more thanlike, you're not sure.
I think it's the teamactively tells you
it's refusing coaching.
We don't need this.
So I think it's, upto the coach to figure
that out quickly.

(03:52):
Right.
Take the temperatureand say, is this
team receptive ofcoaches or coaching
in general or not?
Well, let's startthere just to get the
agenda kicked off.
The organization hasdecided that yes,
they've identifiedyes, there is a
need for a coach,whatever that need is,
whatever the reasonis they've identified.
Could be legitimatereasons or not, we're
not gonna get into that.
in a lot of corporateenvironments, coaches

(04:12):
are assigned to teamswithout that team's
consent or input so youmight be starting as
a coach already behindin terms of developing
a relationship becauseyou've started in this
power dynamic wherelike you, oh, they're
bring, they're beingbrought in to help,
but the team feelslike it's surveillance.
You're immediately gonnastart with resistance.
Everything you don't want.

(04:33):
Right?
You're immediately going.
You're immediatelygoing to start with.
So if we're gonnabreak this into for and
against, sometimes theteams need some sort of
external interventionand they don't
necessarily know it andalso because they're
so focused on the work.
Like you started bysaying they're not
taking a step back torealize that like, oh,
we are really blockedwhen we try to do this.

(04:53):
Or, oh, we are reallyslow when it comes to
deployment or whatever.
'cause we don't haveDevOps skills or
whatever, whatever.
It's like the teamhas blind spots
basically that they'renot going to realize
and ask for help.
While they're focusedon the work of the team.
And maybe because of thecorporate way that we
do business there's noopportunities to stop.

(05:14):
Like the work it isjust a continuous grind
that there's no stops.
You know?
We we're maximizeefficiency Om, there's
no, there's no stops.
Yeah.
I certainly agreethat the teams are
just focused on thework of the sprint,
every single sprint.
But there's the otherside of it is this, they
genuinely do believe,at least as a coach,
I've seen this, thatthey're doing things

(05:35):
the right way, right?
Yeah.
And whatever they'redoing becomes institutionalized.
And then, so as youcome in as a coach and
say, whoa, why are youdoing things that way?
And they go, that's howit works around here.
Yeah.
We're unique.
This is how it works.
We've always done it that way.
It's always there.
A the team's neverhad input in selecting
you as a coach ofcourse, but at the

(05:56):
same time, you werehired to coach a team.
You didn't get topick your team.
Now both of these entities arein it together.
Yeah.
So one of the very firstthings that happens,
like I think you startedoff with this, Brian.
Teams will justhave a natural re.
And they, they feel like they'rebeing spied upon.

(06:16):
Yeah.
This is the surveillancething, right?
Yeah.
So as a coach, youneed to be mindful
of that, right?
And you come in not saying, whatare you doing?
Why are you doing this?
You come in and just observe.
Oh, so the , you'reobserving until they ask you.
And then it's basicallypull based help.
Not, not push base.
It, it's, yeah.
That's, that's ideal.

(06:37):
What happens oftentimesis you're observing
because you'renot intervening or
saying anything.
Yeah.
So then you needto know as a coach
when to interject.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And often I found it'soften beneficial to
not just go in witha course correction.
Immediately.
Right.
Or even after observingfor some time.
Don't do that.
Build in the relationship andthe trust first.

(06:59):
So go in with just helpme understand why you
do things this way,and then that's it.
That's it.
You stop there.
Even though you don't agree withit, which nine times
outta 10 you don't.
Because they'remalpractices, but this
is not the time tosay, Hey stop doing
this, start doing this.
It's just understandingand empathizing with the

(07:19):
team and then suggestingwhy don't we, have
you thought about whatwould happen if, you
tried doing somethingdifferent for a sprint.
What would you say if,if I said that well,
if you're waiting forteams to ask for help
like the high performingteams they're gonna
get support becausethey're constantly

(07:39):
trying to self-improve,whereas these teams
obviously are strugglingand can't get stuff
across the finish linethey're never gonna
get help 'cause ifwe have a mix of on
and offshore teams.
The offshore teams ina particular culture,
I don't even need toreference the culture.
They won't ever gethelp because they don't
wanna ask for help.
That's just the culture.
Yeah.
So I agree with that.
They don't wanna ask for help.

(08:00):
That's the culture.
And then there's anotherthing that gets in
your way as a coach,and that is you can
coach people and mentorthem, et cetera, but
not the contractors.
We don't pay for that.
Oh, yeah.
So when teams startto kind of shut you out, right?
Even if it's notexplicit it's because

(08:21):
you went into soonand you started to
change things around.
They feel like, well,this guy or person
comes in here and istelling us to change
the way we're working.
But they don't understand.
They don't understandwhatever goes after
that, dot, dot, dot.
You know, they don'tunderstand that we have.
Corporate limitations.
The way we work, ourorg design is geared up

(08:42):
to working in this way.
We can't deploy intoany environment what
we produce becausewe're matrixed and it's
their job over there.
And their plate is full.
We just simply passit over to them.
It's a handoff.
He doesn't, or shedoesn't understand that.
That's what I'm sayingis go in with an
open mind and justwatch and listen.
And understand these things.

(09:03):
And then suggestone thing at a time.
Just one thinginitially that's small
that you know you canget a win on, right?
What if you broke downyour eight point stories
that you don't seemto finish in the last
two or three sprintsinto smaller stories?
Let me help you withthat process, you
are at this point,you're coaching, but
you're also, in a way,you're also training.

(09:25):
So you help out withthat, get that win.
And then pat them onthe back for doing
that, even though itwas at your suggestion.
That doesn't matter.
Okay.
That's your job.
So you have to operate in theshadows as a coach.
Right.
That's, that's what I'm saying.
Yeah.
Operate.
This is a clandestine job.
Like operate in the shadows.

(09:45):
Nobody knows their name.
Small changes at a timewithout them looking
like you are forcingthem on the team.
There's a million questions Iwanna ask about.
This is like, as acoach, are you tracking
all the different thingsthat you're trying
and keeping them on aboard or a report or
something somewhere?
Because at some pointmanagement is gonna
come to you and belike, oh, I don't
know about the ROI ofcoaching or whatever.

(10:06):
And then you'regonna say like, Hey
man, get outta myoffice anyway yeah.
We can say the wholepodcast, but I like, I
wonder, I wonder there,there's some takeaways
here that's validpoint about tracking.
Yeah, it is absolutely valid.
But not necessarilybecause you're trying to
justify to management,it's also trying
to showcase to yourteam that whatever
they just tried, yoursuggestion, albeit.

(10:27):
Is actually working.
I mean also a year fromnow, you can look and
say like, here's wherewe were when we started.
Right?
Right.
Because here's all thethings that we did.
And these are notthe, they are work,
they're not likesoftware development
features or whatever.
Right.
They are work oflearning how to work
more efficiently in theenvironment that we're
in together with thepeople that we have.

(10:48):
Which is crazy thatpeople think that
that's not Yeah.
That's not working.
It, it is.
I'm a big fan ofvisualizing on the
board, first of alland keeping something
in the backlog forprocess improvement.
Yeah.
But when you do thisto a team that is
basically pushingback at this, yeah, we
don't, we're doing fine.
We don't need this.
Right.

(11:08):
Go lightly and say,these are improvement
initiatives thatwe're taking on as
small things in asprint, however.
Everybody on theteam is doing this.
So it's not like, okay,Joe and Mary over here
have these things.
It's for everyone.
Second point is everyso often, I'll just say

(11:29):
that, right, becauseit's contextual.
Again, not every day,at least every so often
at the Daily Sync,raise that and say,
this is what we'restriving towards.
Are we doing this?
Just you're notsaying, why aren't
we doing this?
We're simply saying,are we doing this right?
And it can besymptomatic that you
are addressing symptoms.
So for example, ifsomeone says, ah, well

(11:49):
development's complete.
We didn't have time tofinish all the testing,
so we'll just move itto the next sprint.
You happen to know fromprevious sprints that
this is a symptom thatthis team has right?
And that's when yousay, well, how could we
have done this better?
Ask the question and then wait.
It's, it's wild thatwhat you're proposing
of like, how couldwe work together?
Better or how can wehandle our problems as

(12:12):
a team better when likethe product manager
does this all the timehere's the, here's
where we're going inthe future here, here's
the goal of the sprint.
Here's where we'regoing this quarter
and I'm gonna bringit up every day just
to keep everyoneon the same page.
But when you wanna dothat for organizational
design and, andthe organizational
development of likeus working together,
it's bananas.
It's like no ROI, it's,it's people lose their
minds and they revertback to the four point

(12:34):
plan of startup cashin sell out bro down.
Wow.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because there's no other plan.
This is a frustratingcategory that I want
frustrat, I wanna, Iwanna move past because
I'm so frustratedwith this category.
But, there are someactionable takeaways.
That we talked about.
I think about coaches a lot.
When I think about like,people that are not
permanent employees, Ithink about contract,
type of consultanttype of consult.
If you're in one ofthose roles, if you're

(12:54):
a coach and you'recoming on, or if this
is your first time doingit right, and you're
looking for help, right?
Maybe you foundthis podcast like,
and subscribe.
Then there I havea, IIII sketched
out three points.
When you, when youwere talking has a team
received clear feedbackabout how their work
is impacting people?
Do they understand whysomeone thinks they need

(13:15):
help f for that work?
So like, Hey, yourwork is important
because, right.
And then here's the things thatI'm observing.
And I think that youcould get some outside
help you know, to,to, to help you with.
So I was trying notto say help in the
same sentence twice.
And then the other oneis and ha have they been
given an actual choice?
In the, the way in whichthey received that help.

(13:36):
So there's like a threepoint plan, not the
Cartman four point plan.
This is a three pointplan which is like,
if you're startingas a coach, it would
be nice to know thesethings Hey, have
you made this clear?
Or is the first timethey're gonna be hearing
there's problems thatmanagement is observing?
Or whoever decided tohire the agile coach
or coach business coachthis is the first time
they're hearing thatthey have problems
is like this coachcomes in that sets

(13:57):
a bad entry point.
I just wanna makea couple of quick points, right?
Yeah.
So, so one is, I saidearlier, start with
something small, right?
But one of the thingsyou could do is also
just say, look, hereare three things
that I've observed.
Which of these threedo you think you should
pick up to improve on?
Right.
It'll give them the say in that.

(14:17):
So it's like, okay,well they're gonna
come, come in and say.
You know what?
We always move thingsfrom sprint to sprint.
Maybe we shouldn'tbe doing that so that that's an
improvement item orwhatever it might be.
Have them have a sayin whatever it is that
they're committingto improve upon that
that's one thing.
The other thing iswhen you have too
many options, right?

(14:38):
it's not a good thingto come in and say,
well, out of theseeight things, which
one or two do you want?
Because the underlyingessence there is we're
not doing so good.
We've got eight thingswe can improve upon.
But before thisperson arrived here,
we're doing great.
So that's gonna feed,it's gonna have that
positive feedbackeffect, unfortunately
in the teams resistingYour help basically.

(15:00):
The focus on businessvalue, that needs
to be something thatyou always bring up
because the teamscould say, well.
Before you joined,we've always been
delivering prettymuch on point, our
velocity is fairly good.
Like it hasn'treally dipped much.
You know, over the lastfive or so sprints,

(15:21):
it's been consistent.
So we're consistently,we our say do ratio
is consistent, is whatthey're saying, right?
And that's great.
But as a coach youcan come in and say,
well, you're finishingthe work every
sprint that you'recommitting to, but is
it really extendingbusiness value?
How are you carvingout the work?
Is it, is it just someof it at least, it's
just purely academic,you create these

(15:42):
things, whatever theyare, user stories,
pbis, et cetera.
Get 'em to done andsay, pay yourself on the back.
But what have yougiven the user, they
don't necessarily balk at that.
But if you don't bringit up again, not day
one, but at some pointsoon then you're not
really doing your job.
And when you do bring it up.
And something happens with thatdocumented, right?

(16:04):
Yeah.
Because again, goingback to your point
about metrics for seniormanagers or leadership
that got you in this,in the first place.
So let's assume thatthe team understands
the concerns and they'regrudgingly, they're
begrudgingly accepting.
Begrudgingly, yes.
Now what, so it bringsus to the next category.
Should coaches beassigned to teams
or should teamschoose their coaches?

(16:26):
Whoa.
So, so most organizations assigncoaches to teams
the same way theyassign managers.
Just structural decisionmaking that's made
above the team level.
You were never asked,honestly, they don't
even really know thatyou're even here,
like you're a cellon a spreadsheet.
But coaching isfundamentally different
than management.
Yeah.
Just to be able tomake progress, the
trust that's required,the willingness to

(16:47):
experiment that, thatkind of stuff in your
professional world,that doesn't really lend
itself to this methodthat is like, we're
just gonna assign youa coach kid and then
get back out there ona, go back out there
and play the role.
Can that relationshipwork when it's mandated?
So that, that's,that's this category
and there's two sidesof this category.
There's teams have tohave some kind of say
in choosing their owncoach on one side, and

(17:09):
the other side is likethe team's choice.
It's better to justgive them somebody that
you know, can produce.
And then let them figureit out, because like
the team it's, it'snot always practical
or beneficial forthe team to have an
involved process tofigure out their coach.
Okay.
I'll give you theagainst because I
think this is gonnabe a pretty quick

(17:29):
category, sorry, Ioutlined this category
in the teams havinga say in who they.
Bring on as coach.
But the real discussionpoint I think is gonna
happen in this categoryis should the teams have
a say in getting rid oftheir coach if they end
up not liking the coach.
And so there's justtwo sides of this.
The side is that likethe teams have to have
input into the coachingrelationship and

(17:49):
their coach in their,in their practices
in general, right?
Yeah.
Obviously 'cause there'sno trust that, that,
that that relationshipcan't be established.
They're probably not agood coach for the team.
They're probablynever gonna fit.
And then that, that'sone, that's one side.
I'll lead that side toyou on the other side,
the management side.
Yeah, we wanna make people happyand whatnot.
We want their opinionsto be considered.
But however the team,they don't necessarily

(18:12):
know what kind ofcoaching they need
until we've given theman experienced coach.
Who can, who's kindof seen it all to
let us, us meaningus the management,
know which path theyneed to go down.
Point number one, pointnumber two, like in
large organizationslike this, of course,
everyone wants the best coach.
Everyone wants thebest NFL coach to
work for their team.
There's only one of them.
They can't go aroundeverywhere I just want

(18:34):
to throw it in there.
Yeah.
Little salt andpepper in my little
salt, salt bae.
Little sprinkle.
That's right.
then teams mightchoose coaches that
make them comfortablerather than actually
make actual change.
Ooh, that's, that's myspiciest one in here.
That's my favorite one in here.
And also the one I'veseen the most by the
way, is teams go getthe coach that's just
gonna rubber stampall and be like,
well, I'm just meetingyou where you are.

(18:54):
We gotta meet theteams where they are.
That's a trigger phrase for me.
That's right.
So let's breakthis down into its
components, right?
The teams that need help.
Often do not realizethey need help.
Yes.
So we'll start with that one.
If they don't needhelp, then management
believes they need help.
You can basicallychallenge that.

(19:14):
Why is it thatmanagement believe
they need help?
What's the driving force here?
Well we want teamA to be producing,
delivering the sameas team B. Well, now
you need a coach thatunderstands and can
coach management thatevery team is unique
and they're dynamic.
You don't compareteams in that way.

(19:36):
So we'll start, wecan start there.
But let's assumethat your coach.
You're brought in byleadership management
and you are basicallytold to go to the team
and help them out.
The team has had no say in this.
I think in the previouscarry we talked about
Lisa, I, led withdon't go in just guns
blazing, say, changethis, change that.
I just basically observe.

(19:57):
But here, one of thethings you should
do up front as acoach is to say,
listen, I'm a coach.
I'm here to learn abouthow you are working.
When teams have no sayin who coaches them,
that is interpreted as a, management disguise as.
Or coaching or whatever.

(20:19):
And this often happenswhen there's another
issue at play that isnot, not dealt with,
which is somethinglike perhaps org design
or the way the org isstructured, there's
a, there's a conflict.
Nobody wants to change that.
There's a conflict happen.
You just stumbledon another like pet
peeve podcast thatI want to have that
I, I don't know.
I read a book recentlyabout running better

(20:40):
meetings and themain thing is to
draw out conflict.
Obviously you haveto know how to draw
conflict in a healthyway, but to always
be seeking to drawconflict out into the
open to talk about it.
Because if you neverhad the skill to draw,
like if you're alwaysavoiding conflict.
You deflect it oryou take it offline

(21:00):
or whatever, that kind of stuff.
And you, you don'thave a way to pull it
outta people and thenput it on the table and
then look at the factsand actually deal with
it like you're nevergonna make progress.
and that, that's sortof this same thing
is like there's aconflict going on.
Nobody wants to address it.
They're bringing anoutside person and
hopefully that outsideperson is good at Right.
You know what I mean?
Like Yeah.
Yeah.
Hopefully, andthe conflict could
be anything, but you're right.

(21:20):
You know, but alsothere's a hu real
danger here, andthat is the outside
person is basicallya pawn in this game.
Right.
And, and you know,management bring them in
just to say, look, thisteam is beyond help.
Right.
We even got them anoutside consultant to help out.
Mm-hmm.
And they didn't improve.
So there was a.
Premeditated agendaalready in place.

(21:42):
It's still a conflict.
It's just not Oh,it's a conflict.
Not you, you justintroduced that the
manager is like shirkingtheir responsibility.
Yes.
Which is not that,again, all these are
not, that's not partof this podcast.
I agree.
Are you arguing onthe against side?
Because I, you'resupporting all my points
here is like I've seenall of this before.
It's supporting allmy points is like you
now they're bringingyou in as a coach.
We welcome to theorganization Om.

(22:02):
They're bringing youin as a coach now as
like the scapegoat.
'cause when you don'tresolve the conflict
that none of us wantto deal with Sure.
No, because we havepolitical capital and
it needs to be spentelsewhere getting
us our directorpromotions or whatever.
Right.
We bring you in.
And now any like,failure to address a conflict.
Well, that was Om's conflict.
That's not good.
It's very scary.
But that happens a lot.

(22:23):
If trust is a foundationfor effective coaching.
And the team knowstheir challenges better
than anyone like you.
I would expect thefour category here is
the team needs somesay in the feedback
for their coach.
I don't even know ifthat avenue's open in
most organizations, butthey need some say to
at least get feedback.

(22:43):
I don't know wherethe feedback goes.
I don't know how it works.
This avenue isdefinitely not open
in most, if notall organizations.
Right.
Because the team issimply assigned a coach.
But then it's up tothe coach to say, look,
I'm here because Andthen open the door and
invite the team in andsay, what is it that
you're struggling with?

(23:04):
Instead of, well,okay, I've been told
that you are, youhave these challenges.
Like that's just like,it's a bad position
to go in and just.
You know, throw thehammer down and say,
these are, get the teamsto tell you that, and
then have them rankthose and vote on those
and say, well, whatshould we work on first?
What do you think you should beworked on first?

(23:26):
Pick that and thengo with that all
along, what you'redoing, whatever
timeframe this takes.
Could be two, threesprints, whatever it is.
You're building therelationships and the
trust with that team.
Lemme ask you a question.
Would you, becausethe category here is,
should the teams havea say in choosing
slash firing coaches.
I'm gonna give you apreview of my takeaway
in here 'cause Ialready have it written
it says, if you're,if you're a coach and

(23:48):
you're assigned toa team I would hope
that you can negotiatea trial period.
Like you, you havea trial period.
I don't know whatthe trial period is.
Maybe it's differentfor every organization,
but I figure ifyou've done it enough
professionally, youknow that if you're not
meshing with the teamafter x, what, 90 days?
You spend the firstfew sessions getting
to know them,understanding their
challenges, kind ofwhat you talked about.
I would say like there's a trialperiod at the end of

(24:08):
that trial period.
Like you need to sitdown with parties
involved and discussthis is, this is, these
are the things we,this is what I observe.
This is where the teamthinks they need to go.
Which you, they coulduse your method.
You just said, Hey, theyranked what they need.
Here's what I think they need.
'cause now I assumeyou're talking to
the person thatis paying for you
to be their coach.
Correct.
And this also like, Iguess this sort, this

(24:28):
sort of like, we'repigeonholing ourselves
to development teams.
Like if we take a stepback how do you do
this with an executive?
They have to be openenough to discuss
like, this is whereI think I need to go.
And then the coachhas to be open enough
to be like, I knowthat you say that.
But here's where yourreal shortcomings are
you know what I mean?
Like, you're realterrible at sales,
you're cur with people, you jumpstraight to solutions.

(24:49):
You know what I mean?
Like a lot offeedback that might
be hard to hear.
Yeah.
And, and again, likeyou read the Trillion
Dollar Coach, there'sa lot of examples in
there about the coachin that book holding
people accountable.
Anyway, the point hereis you sit down with
everyone, you talk aboutwhat they want to get,
and then kind of yourassessment of where they
are going to, because atsome point you have to

(25:09):
agree like, Hey, we'regoing in the same place.
Yeah.
So I wanna break thisinto two different areas, right?
One is the development team.
So when you comein, they don't know
what challenges they even have.
Sure.
So you have to kind of.
Flesh those out.
And then, like Isaid, invite them
to figure out whichones they need to
prioritize, et cetera.
And Alex sorry.
I wanted to jump inbecause you said the

(25:30):
development team, andyou're referencing this from the
coach perspective.
Yes, but when I'mhearing this, I, I've
started with many newdevelopment teams as
a product manager, andthere is an element
because I've workedon development teams
so long and I can seethese patterns very
quickly it's part likea player coach when I
join with these teams.
I can see like, oh,you guys are real bad

(25:51):
at estimating, or,oh, you guys don't
know how to deploy.
There's only one personon the whole team that
can deploy or whatever.
Or, oh, here's another one.
There's only one personon the whole team that
has real QA skills.
Right.
That thinks abouttesting, like there,
obviously there areskills, they are on the
team, but they need tobe spread and adopted
as like a holisticsolution or systemic,
what I'm trying to say.

(26:11):
Yeah.
Trying to get to a self-managingcenter team.
Yeah.
What I'm trying to sayis I've joined teams
many times where Ihave, I'm sort of like
a player coach, as aproduct manager and I'm
trying to get team, Inever want to tell teams
about the process ofdeveloping 'cause that's
not why I'm there asthe product manager.
Sure.
So I try to get them tocome to the learnings

(26:32):
by constantly repeatingthese things over time.
This is, this soundsvery much the same.
Is that it, it, it is the same.
It is a little bitdifferent when you talk
about executive level.
Teams.
Right?
And that's because of this.
There's a lot of powerdynamics at play.
Did you say a lotof power dynamics?
Meaning the mostdysfunctional teams I've

(26:52):
ever seen in contact?
Indeed.
The most dysfunctional teams.
Yes, indeed.
So you brought into tocoach an executive team.
Right.
And here the sameprinciples that I,
that we've talked aboutthus far, you need
to rethink becauseit's no longer about
just sitting back andobserving for a while.
Right?
'cause you think aboutwhat we just said about

(27:15):
the team coming in asyou come in as a coach
and the team saying,wait, we're doing great.
Yeah, well magnify thatnow by the number of
people that you haveon the exec team and
then double it becausethat's how it works.
Every person on theexec team rather, has
their own opinionsand beliefs, and
they also have anally on the team.
So your work is cutout for you, right?

(27:36):
So one of the thingsyou need to do going
in is align yourselfwith the person who
has brought you inand the purpose behind
them bringing you in.
It doesn't matter ifyou're curing cancer or
whatever, nobody cares.
Nobody really caresOn the exec team.
The only person is theperson who's brought
you in and is payingfor you to make a
difference, right?
At the expense ofsome other things that

(28:00):
you know need to bedone, right, let's say
operations, you can seesome efficiencies that
could be gained there oreffectiveness, whatever.
But that's not whyyou were brought in.
I would document itbut not necessarily publish it.
Right.
Just keep it.
But also keep comingback to the, one
document hopefullythat you created or

(28:21):
co-created with theperson that hired
you as far as why,why are you there?
Keep coming back tothat and focus your
coaching around that.
Yeah.
And you will havepeople that will always poo ppo.
You are you are being there.
Hr, for example, ifyou're coaching a, an
executive HR would say,well, this is all good,

(28:42):
but you know, we haveto, we have to abide
by these regulations.
So this is how we'vebeen doing things and
we're not changing.
Yeah, that's it.
Yeah.
There's, there's no, howcan we perhaps change?
No, there's none of that.
It's, we're not changing.
Same thing couldhappen with finance.
Any, anybody else.
It doesn't matter.
So as a coach on the exec team,what do you do?
Right?
That's not a battleyou want to fight.

(29:03):
You wanna now goback and say, why
was I brought in?
Why, why did theperson who's paying
for me bring me in?
Yeah.
You've had that interview withthem upfront.
Go back to those notes.
Ignore all of thesethings that are being
pushed at you andfocus on the things
that you can make adifference on, no matter
how small they are.
If you're not doingthat, guess what?

(29:23):
That coalition Imentioned earlier will
only get stronger.
You know, one personwill say to the other
person on there, whyare we even here?
And the third person, I agree.
Before you know it, there'sgonna be descent,
overt, or covert.
Right.
And you'll findyourself swimming
against the tide.
So we've establisheda baseline of consent
and now we're gonnamove on to the, to the
messy part, the wherethe team says that they

(29:45):
don't want coaching.
'cause they, theygenuinely don't think
they have any problems.
They're, we're all awesome.
That's what I'm saying.
So that leads us to who,who gets to decide if a
team needs help or not?
Which is sort of theexecutive category that
you were talking about.
Everyone's pointingfingers like, no,
they need the help.
No, they need the help.
So one of the mostcommon scenarios a
coach faces is themanager says a team

(30:06):
is underperformingor a product team
has poor stakeholderrelationships or isn't
collaborating wellwith other product
teams or other programteams or whatever.
When you talk to them,they don't see it.
Right.
Oh, that person justdoesn't like us.
Or, oh, these peopleare always late.
Or, oh, it's this otherprogram or whatever.
some of which mightbe legitimate reasons.
It's a fundamental question.
whose reality matters?
Who has the authority to definequote the problem?

(30:29):
That is a really good question.
So if you're at theteam level, right?
And you come in,somebody told you why
they need you to bethere personally hired
you, maybe, but somebodysaid, Hey, come in and
help us with this team.
So first of all, havea chat with them.
Figure out why they believethey have issues.

(30:52):
Yeah.
And then talk tothe teams and say.
What are some of the challengesthat you have?
And you're notnecessarily pointing
at anybody in particular, right?
So again, what reallyhelps is the usual
things that we allknow open sessions
anonymized feedbackonto a whiteboard,
whatever, right?
And then have peoplelook at those and say,
yeah, I like this one.

(31:13):
Or I like mine better.
So have 'em vote onit and out will come.
One or two things thatthe team collectively
believes they havechallenges with.
They may not be thesame challenges as what
management had when theytold you to come in.
If they are, thenit just validates management's
assumptions if they'renot, guess what?
You go back tomanagement and say,

(31:35):
yeah, I hear you.
However, this is what the teamthinks that they're
struggling with, so.
I'm gonna focus on whattheir needs are, unless
you tell me otherwise.
I've, and here's how I know whattheir needs are.
I did this survey, et cetera.
Right, right, right.
If they tell you,no, no, no, just,
just do what I say.
Well, that's one message.

(31:56):
. If they say, thisis good, go ahead and do this.
This is why you're here.
That's another message.
, And part those thoughtsfor a minute, because
I'm gonna come backto those in the
second half of this.
Which is, shouldteams be able to
fire their coach?
Take the happy path.
Let's say managementsays this is good.
The team say thesethings and that's
where they need help.
So go for it.
Now you have validatedthe need with the team.

(32:19):
You've endorsed thosethrough management,
but that's kind of the,by the buy it doesn't
really matter as much.
Yeah.
Now you go back tothe team and say.
Off these challenges,like it is a repeat of
what I said earlier.
Which ones do you wantto focus on first and
stay with that right?
For a bit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And ITE and repeat.
When you're doingthat, you're building
trust because you'reasking for their

(32:41):
input and not comingin after two or three
sprints of observationand say, Hey, you're
not doing this well.
That's just, that'smore of an edict from
you as opposed to.
Your stats say this,like you're basically
being evidence driven..
But also asking their intuition,let me salt bae out some
salt and pepper out someagainst points here.

(33:03):
External perspectivesare necessary.
Yeah.
That got, I'll be on the againstside of this one.
Sometimes I'm on theagainst side because
that's the way that thedice roll out when we
roll them beforehand,but sometimes I'm on
the against side becauseI think it's just a
better arguing point.
And this one is like sometimesyou need to get an
external perspective.
I'll give you three points.

(33:23):
I would give youfour points, but the
four points would bestartup cash in sell
out, bro, down out.
And I'm not givingyou those points yet anyway yet.
So teams.
I tend to normalizetheir dysfunction.
So they, they develop defensiveroutines around
these dysfunctions.
They don't see themas dysfunctions.
It's just the waywe've always been
doing business.

(33:43):
And they need anoutside perspective
because this has becomeinstitutionalized.
Exactly.
Number one, number one.
Number two if the team'swork is causing pain
for external customersor even other teams
like a consuming teams,which I would consider
customers, right?
'cause again, I workedon teams where they're

(34:04):
platform teams and theinternal developers
are your customers.
So like I consideranyone that consumes
your stuff, you'requote customer Sure.
Internal or external.
If your work is causingpain to those customers
those customer'sperspectives, or I
guess I should saythe stakeholders
perspective matters.
Yeah.
Regardless if theteam isn't really
determining like,well, they're internal,

(34:25):
they don't have muchimpact, blah, blah.
You know, they, or if we do thestakeholder management
two by two matrix.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They're like, oh,well there you don't,
they're low interest,low power yeah, you're
causing a lot of issueseven if it's not a
big thing for you.
It's a big thingfor other teams.
And while you technically hityour deadlines or
whatever, you're notlooking at the impact.
Like the peopleimpact of how that's

(34:46):
affecting other teams.
And the last one isfeedback loops in
most organizations.
Even feedback loops oflike how we determine
if we're doing good ornot like we're doing,
we do retrospectivesevery sprint Om.
We are great.
Okay.
You're doing retroretrospect is every
sprint, but it's thesame as, as, the same as
that person that comesin as like, I am working

(35:07):
on this thing today.
I know it's not thehighest priority because
the highest prioritythat I was supposed to
work on yesterday, it'sblocked because I can't
do X, Y, Z, and I'm justnot gonna work on that.
I'm gonna work onthis other thing.
No blockers like it,it's that kind of like,
yeah, the feedback loopsin so many organizations
are just so inherentlybroken and teams
don't even know howto get them unbroken.

(35:29):
That again, you need allthree of those points.
you need an externalperspective to come
in and say, wait.
Why aren't you fixingthe feedback loops?
Why aren't you havingbetter relationships
with other teams and customers?
Why are you settlingfor this dysfunction?
Why don't you keep pushing?
Somebody from theoutside should be able
to look at those thingsimmediately , and say,
, this is a big problem.
Why are we not treatingit like it's a problem?

(35:50):
That's how we work here.
We unique, agiledoesn't work here.
I thought I just sling that one.
Yeah, that was a good one.
It doesn't work here'cause we are special.
That's right.
New team members thatare onboarded to the
team, they see it.
But 'cause they saysomething, they're
basically told,listen, you knew.
You understand oneday . This is how it
works around here.
That's . Right.

(36:10):
An external personon the other hand,
. Could say, wait,that's not how other
companies do things.
That's right.
So externalperspective is welcome.
The counter to thatmight be our culture
the way we work,all of those things that
people bring up and say,yeah, but that, that's
all good, but it won'twork here because Right.
So that's the counter to that.

(36:32):
But as a coach, you can come inand say, I've seen.
Way too many timesthese sorts of things.
And this is whatreally works out there.
Mm-hmm.
So why don't wetry something in a
safe environment?
Maybe try it like for a sprint.
Treat it as an experiment.
See how it works.
When it works, go backand pat them on the
back and say, you didsomething for a sprint.

(36:53):
Do we continue or not?
And if it worked, peoplewould say, continue.
So we continue.
Now that's done.
You know, I'm interestedin a tool like that
for the takeawayof this category.
When we were puttingthe agenda together,
I was having a hardone with this one.
But I think a takeawayfor this category, and
I don't think I've everseen maybe one company
I've ever been at.
Did something sortof like this in the

(37:15):
form of, it was morelike presented like a
360 feedback type oflike your peers review
you oh, this personthinks this, but how
are they perceived?
Trying to put yourevidence with the
perception, put 'emtogether to try to
get you to kind of seepast your own biases.
Biases, biases, biases.
That's right.
So my, the, my takeawayin this category
is create somethingcalled a perception

(37:35):
mapping session.
I've never used a perceptionmapping session.
I've seen it more oflike a 360 feedback,
that kind of stuff,putting it together
to say you're doing interviews.
Basically you're doingone-on-one interviews
and it's along the linesof three questions.
It doesn't have tobe three questions,
but basically is whatchallenges, what's
your biggest challenge?
What do you think othersin the organization
think about your teamand what feedback

(37:57):
have you receivedabout your work?
So I'm trying to understand yourperceptions, how others
perceive your work.
But then I would tryto get the external
side of that is like,hey, when you're
interacting with thisteam, and you probably
could put together,some kind of like real
high level scoring.
A like the Likertscoring of like a one through
five, one throughseven or whatever.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It is Likert.
Yeah.
You could put togethersome kind of survey like

(38:18):
that about the team.
Hey, when you work withthis team, how much
do you agree or notwith these statements?
Right?
And you could kindof do that to develop
this kind of I'mtrying to think of like
the most fair way todevelop some kind of
coaching scorecard.
For you to, for a coachto start with, to say
like, this is how thisteam perceives itself.

(38:39):
'cause a team wouldtake that survey Sure.
And then other teamswould take that survey
about that team.
And if it really isanonymized, I mean that
would be the, that'sa problem right there.
But if it really isanonymized, you can get
an excellent startingpoint, whereas, oh, I
talked to your managerand he thinks this, or
I talked to team X, Y,Z and they think that
those are discreetdata points that
matter even be valid.
So what you'redescribing is, I think

(39:00):
what Management 3.0 hasin there as, oh really,
where every team member.
Looks at every otherteam member, and
this is typically notanonymized, but it
can easily be sureand say this person
you know, is, doesthe job adequately?
Or goes above andbeyond the call of duty.
Or really doesn'treally go out of their
way to help out and sothere's on the liker

(39:24):
comment you made it, it,it isn't really about
giving a numeric score.
It's, it's like, well, yeah.
They go above and beyond.
I'll give 'em a plus.
Or a minus if theydon't or I don't know
them, or about theirspecific contributions
in this way.
So I'll just put aquestion mark Now
that can be extendedto the team's level,
when you are workingwith this other team,

(39:46):
you can do that, again, this isup to the coach.
To come up with instruments likethis, start small
and then scale up.
What you're doing is youare avoiding the blame
game here by saying onthe whole, as a team, we
tend to fall short here.
You can do other thingstoo, like heat maps
and things like that.
Yeah.
You can do that as well.
But, so there arevarious techniques
available that acoach should have

(40:06):
at their disposal.
The point of all thisis build trust first,
and then talk aboutwhy you're doing it
with the perspectiveof, this isn't about
casting blame oradmonishing anyone.
It it's more about howcan we collectively
raise our game.
And that includesworking with the

(40:26):
leadership specificallythere, because you
really want to avoid theblame game there, even
if it's like, it is not,it's not even about the
person at that point.
'cause when you'recoaching at that level,
it isn't about how arewe doing things in.
I dunno, DevOps or whatever.
It's not.
It's about finance.
Well, there's like onefinance person, right?

(40:47):
Yeah.
On the leadership team.
Yeah.
So you've already allbut named them already.
You gotta avoid that.
There's some skill involved indoing that, right?
But you can do that.
There's skill involved,but this is the
wonderful thing aboutbeing in the scene
at all business isyour turf war is.
I mean, when you comein as a coach and you
obviously see a bunchof turf wars or this and
that, like that, that'swhy I, I'm, I'm trying

(41:08):
to look for a takeawayin this category.
Let me build evidenceof the perception.
Even if the perceptionis just perception once
you run wide surveysacross the whole
company or customerbase or whatever, other
teams, whatever it is.
Yeah.
Like you get solidifiedevidence of that
perception and nowyour task is changing.
Changing the perceptionby actually changing

(41:31):
the perception, right?
That's the hard work.
How are you gonna do that?
You don't know whatyou need to change
until you see like,this team is perceived
as delivering slowly.
This team is perceivedas being difficult to work with.
This team is being perceived asbeing combative.
If you tell theteam, Hey, you guys
are perceived asbeing combative.
Obviously a combative team isgonna be combative.
Combative.

(41:51):
That's all they know.
Hey they're not gonnabelieve you whatcha
are you talking aboutwe're combative?
No, everyone else is combative.
I don't understandwhat you like, what
the hell are youtalking about, Brian?
There there's, there'ssome, some, some
facts like presentedwith a fa some facts.
Yeah.
You can begin on aneutral playing field.
Anyway, the, the,once you've surfaced
these perception gaps,which is what these
really are, they'reperception gaps.
Once you've surfaced these gaps.

(42:13):
You come to anotherchallenge that I
want to talk about.
So even when you getthe team to agree,
okay, look, we areseeing the evidence,
we see all your, likeyou, you ran a bunch
of Likert surveys.
is coaching always a solution.
Is a tool of coachingbeing over applied.
There's a lot of peoplethis drum right there.
I remember like abouttwo years ago, if you

(42:34):
remember on the podcast,the product people who
were real big on productgrowth or whatever,
like they were bangingthis drum is like,
coaching is nonsense.
It can't help you atall with our, and you
know, but that wasbefore all the people
were like, sure.
You need AI or ablockchain or whatever
else to, yeah, yeah.
So team, not collaborating, getthem coaching team
missing deadlines,get them coaching.

(42:55):
Poor quote, code quality, getthem coaching.
A lot of team dysfunctions havenothing to do with
skills or mindsetor collaborations.
Their symptoms ofother problems that
the coach is reallylike uncovering along
the way and get themcoaching, like it's
coaching may not fix.
Some of these problems.

(43:15):
Yeah, it mightuncover some problems.
This is like nowwe're back in the
scrum category.
Why people hate Scrum.
Yeah.
Scrum is gonna uncovera bunch of problems
and you're notwilling to do anything
about any of them.
So now we're gonnablame Scrum because we
gotta blame something.
'cause I mean, we can't,how dare you, like
not blame something.
I'm gonna bring youright into the against,
which is the Demingversion of fixing

(43:37):
things like this.
Ooh.
A friend Deming,which is meddling.
Oh, all this stuff.
Disguises coachingis actually meddling
your team compositionchanges monthly.
The problem is notcoaching there.
Right.
Okay.
Your, your, if your team has.
Two product owners or,or like one product
owner is split acrossthree different teams
and three differentproduct lines.

(43:57):
The problem is notcoaching, if your
team absolutely cannotdo anything about
anything they bring upin the feedback loops.
Like the problem isnot coaching there.
You have someorganizational design
issues that yeah, maybethe coach can like write
their congressman andtake it up the ladder or
whatever and hope that,hope that they can make
progress or whatever.
Defaulting to coaching in thiscase is pathologizing

(44:18):
teams and lettingthe organization.
Who caused thisproblem in the first
place off the hook.
Yeah.
I sort of agreewith that because
I think a lot ofcoaches will do this.
Alright, listen, ifyou're a coach and you
are doing this, you'resimply saying, wait,
I know the problem's.
Not with the team necessarily.

(44:38):
Right?
It's org design or it'sthe fact that they're
in this huge scalingkind of framework that
are you gonna, areyou about to say, meet
'em where they are?
Meet 'em where they are.
This is a great time.
This is a great time.
It's a good timeto talk about it.
Ooh, meet 'em.
As a coach, I donot like that term
in the gutter.
Meet 'em wherethey're, do not like
where they're at.
, In the alley behind thisnightclub at 4:00 AM I
do not like that term.

(45:00):
Right.
Meet 'em where they are.
They are where they are.
You don't have tomeet 'em there.
Because if you meet'em there, you're gonna
be there and they willforce you to be there.
This is where we are.
This is what we doon Saturday night

at 3 (45:12):
00 AM Oh, no.
Listen, you gotta beable to tell people
and express why wherethey're at is not
a good place to be.
Right.
And so if you can dothat now, have a place
in mind where you wantto take 'em to and why
express that to them.
Right.
So, so you're, you'readvocating for a change
they need to make, avision of the future, or

(45:33):
a change that you makeand the right reason
that they believe in.
Right.
You have to be theevangelist and say,
what are some ofthe things that you
don't like aboutwhere you are at now?
Where would you rather be?
What would you say ifI said it's dangerous
to be that personthat points out the,
environmental problemsbecause they are making
the organizationalconstraints visible so

(45:55):
that we can negotiate.
That is a dangerousspot to put yourself in.
It really is dangerous right?
You gotta shoot the messenger.
That's the easiest wayout for an org is to
shoot the messenger.
And guess what?
They get off thehook doing that.
Right?
And they do what often they do.
So to answer yourquestion though,
like what advice would I have?

(46:16):
Well, listen, firstand foremost, if
you're a coach inthis situation, keep
that resume updated.
Oh, I didn't expect that.
That's gotta come here, right?
But the other thing is,if your team believes
what you're saying isthe right way to march
forward with, right?
The, the org can saythat and they can
sacrifice you right?
But guess what?
The team still believes that.

(46:37):
This is like saying,well, you don't
like what you seein the mirror, so
break the mirror.
Yeah.
Get another mirror.
You say you're gonnalike what you see,
you're still a fat, uglyperson in the mirror.
Or whatever you are.
But my point is,changing the mirror
isn't gonna change you.
You're still a repulsiveindividual in the Yeah.
That's what you are.
Yes, yes.
You are less than a model.
Too much coffee.
Oh, too much pressure.

(46:58):
I like separatingteam problems from
organizational problems becausethe organizational
problems that theyall affect teams.
Right.
And usually they affectmore than one team.
They're all artificialif I have, if I'm gonna
weigh in on the fourat a hall, it's just to
say upstream problems.
Require coachingupstream to solve them.

(47:20):
I understand thatlike the coach is
being applied to belike, go over there
and fix those people.
But you already gaveus your insight into,
well, the executiveteam or leadership,
whatever they requirea whole different style
of coaching and it'sway more cutthroat than
the individual teams.

(47:41):
And I guess my againstin this category of
meddling is we'reapplying it downstream
because we can do thatin order to deflect
the blame downstream.
But these thingscome from upstream,
so we need to handlethem upstream.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If you're a first basecoach and, and you
know, you are basicallyyour management of,
of your team, right?
Baseball team inthis case isn't just

(48:02):
making the righthiring decisions.
It doesn't really matter.
You can have the best first basecoaching you can.
Right?
But you're not gonnamake that much of
an advance on theteam's progress.
A lot of coacheswill stop at the
team level, right.
And they'll just say,it is what it is.
Or the teams willtell you, this is

(48:23):
our environment, thisis how it is here.
And you have to work within theconstraints of that.
Yeah.
So if you're a teamcoach and that's
where you belongand that's where you
wanna be, okay, fine.
But really you'renot gonna get much
traction, honestly.
You've gotta get, you'vegotta develop a spine
and go up to managementand say, listen,

(48:43):
these things over hereare solu, solvable,
soluble, solvable.
Both.
Yeah.
You can dissolvable,they can, they can, leadership
can be dissolvedin water that's not
Yeah, dissolvable.
But really some ofthese problems that
I'm about to tell you.
They're real.
Right.
And which of thesewould you want me
to tackle next?
Right.
Right.
And they might say,there's the door.
Yeah, that's fine.
Yeah.
But at least you've told them.

(49:03):
And if you don'tdo that, you are
really reneging onyour commitment.
I mean, I think you're on thetakeaway right now.
You don't even know it.
We cut this into three points.
'cause we want to zipthrough this category.
On your way through thecoaching engagement,
you are mapping theteam's constraints.
You're mapping problems.
And you're bringingthem up to whoever you work for.
But one of theconstraints that you're
bringing up is whatneeds to change for

(49:24):
this team to succeedthat is outside
the team's control.
'cause that, like atthe point where you're
talking to management,hopefully you're talking
to management becausethere's something
within their scope of.
Accountability.
Yep.
That they can help influence.
'cause if they can't influenceanything what else?
I mean, why did they hire you inthe first place?
Yeah.
And then also,what are they doing
in management?

(49:44):
And also like, getoutta my office.
Sorry, that was threethings confusing.
Like if, if, if thelist is long, so you
can bring them, you canbring things to them.
But if the list is long,like there's a point
where your job ceasesto be coaching and
becomes advocacy, andnow I feel you're doing
too much at this point.
Like, yeah, thingsare getting murky.

(50:05):
Here's what the teamneeds, here's what I
can help them with.
Here's what needs to change inthe environment.
Here's what you can help.
I mean the best coacheswill go around the
organization findingthe people that
are accountable forthose things and then
ta like, I'm gonnasay tasking them.
It is.
Holding them accountable.
It's not like, Hey, weneed you to help us.
It's holding themaccountable in the most

(50:28):
respectful manner ofthe word accountable is
like, you are failingat these things for
us, and we need you.
'cause we can'tsucceed without you.
If I was to put itharshly as a member of
leadership, this teamneeds you to do these
things successfullyor to figure this
problem out and you arethe right person you
have people backed upbehind you that can't

(50:49):
succeed until you figureout how to succeed.
I agree.
And one of the waysyou can do that as
a coach is to raiseimpediments at that
level and say, wehave an organizational
impediment.
Now you should probablyhave a forum to
discuss these things.
Whatever cadence you want.
Yeah.
With the right leadership team.
And then just say,here are things that

(51:11):
we are blocked on.
These are impedimentswho can help with this.
Right.
Tentatively I mightsuggest it might be
Mary or John or whoever.
And if John's notthe right person, it
doesn't matter becausethey will be the first
people to speak upand they'll just say,
Mary will just say,that's not me, that's
you know, Hildegardover there, whatever.
And so you justsay, okay, right.

(51:33):
Fine.
And the best way todo that is probably
on a kanban boardof some kind, on a
leadership level.
So that's one thing.
Also, don't wait tillthe next time before
you revisit this issue.
Right.
Send out remindersbefore the next time you
meet and say, next time,the expectation is this
will move from column Xto Y. You're not saying

(51:53):
you will do this bythen by a certain date,
but you really are.
You're not reallysaying, I'm telling
you Brian, as theCFO, that you need
to do X, y, Z by thisdate, but I really am.
Because I'm saying,here's a card in
your name and it needs to move.
By the time we meetagain next and hold them
accountable, that meanswhen you meet next and

(52:15):
it hasn't moved, theywill give you 50 reasons
why it hasn't moved.
I'm busy.
We are all busy.
Okay.
So at that point, growa spine and say yes,
but yes, everyone agreedto do their bit on all
of their cards, whatcan you do to make
it there by this timetomorrow, next time we
meet this time tomorrow.

(52:36):
You have to have theburning, like that
burning coalition.
If you don't have that.
You're not a coach.
You've addressedthe environment,
you clarified theproblem, you've
established consent,you know what I mean?
You've got everyoneworking together.
You start workingwith the team, you
hit another wall.
Like the, the teamis, the team's polite.
They show up, theysay the things they wanna do.
They, they, they putthe cards in the retro
board or whatever.

(52:56):
you've addressedthe environment.
You clarified the problems.
You've establishedconsent, right?
The teams, claim they want to dothings the right way.
That's what you're saying?
Yeah, yeah.
Bringing things to other people.
They say, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
We'll totally help.
Right?
The next point is resistanceversus readiness.
So in coach, incoaching, resistance
is often treated assomething to overcome.
It is a barrier, right?

(53:18):
Well, some people, maybenot you, 'cause you,
because you alreadywent outta your way
to say on this podcastwell, we need to
figure out what the,what the hangups are.
Why, why the resistance, right?
Let's dig into it.
So you already setup like the, well,
the resistance is information.
You just need to, youneed to get your arms
around it and absorb itproperly because that's
critical information.

(53:38):
Yeah.
But I see a lot ofcoaches getting rattled
by this kind of stuffor not even wanting
to challenge it.
'cause they know they'regonna start a conflict
and they don't even wantto start a conflict.
And then if the teams atfirst appear unwilling,
obviously they lack thesafety or resources or
clarity or whatever.
'cause they justdon't wanna do it.
But sometimes the, myagainst here is like,
we are, we're a lotof coaches, especially

(54:01):
the ones that are weakin coaching skills,
like they, what they'llcall resistance.
It frames a team as aproblem and the coach
or the coaching orwhatever as a solution.
Which does nothingto help the coach.
'cause that just perpetuatesthe adversarial relationship.
And then the team.
Again without reallyunderstanding and

(54:21):
jumping straight to solutions.
Oh, you need to dotwo week sprints or whatever.
When management asksthe coach, get this
team on two week sprintsand align them with
all the rest of theteams the team has
already faced multiplechallenges or change
initiatives or changemanagement that's been
forced into management.
Their skepticism is earned.

(54:41):
Their skepticism isbecause management
says, just do this andyou'll be successful.
Just go with this coach.
So they've been feda lot of this stuff.
So it looks to youas an outsider, as unwillingness
to change, right?
Oh, they don't get that.
High NPS scores, right?
People says thisteam's difficult or
whatever, which wealready said earlier
in the podcast thatcould be useful to you.
And now you come to findout like, well, this

(55:02):
team's difficult to workwith 'cause maybe the
team is eight people andlike four of which keeps
they're all offshore andthey keep getting traded
out every month by theiroffshore company right?
Right.
And like they can'tkeep the good people
and they're reallyfrustrated about that
that stuff's completelyoutta control.
So like, yeah, you cansay that, okay, the team
needs to stop being soskeptical about change
or coaching or whatever.

(55:23):
But also maybe they'vebeen handing this coach
that is just a pawnof management and is
there to quote, get themback on track or quote,
whip them into shape.
The other side ofthat is like some
resistance is like.
Real, like the, you needto get your arms around
around this resistanceto understand what
the real problems are.
Yeah.
That which you already outlinedearly in the podcast,

(55:45):
like, oh, the teamis the problem because Yeah.
Yeah.
That, that's a like a blanketassumption often.
Right, right.
So if you're broughtin as a coach by
management and theytell you why they're
bringing you in, don'tjust go and run with
that, because that'sthe easiest thing you
can do to appease them.
Are you really doingthe right thing?
So that's one.
The other thing is,I, I, I said earlier

(56:06):
that should a team beable to like, let go
of their coach, fire,their coach, whatever.
Yeah.
They have very littlesay, in hiring their
coach 'cause they'reusually handed down
a coach, as a coach,you need to come back
every so often andsay, is this working?
For you.
Has this made a difference?
And there are waysto do that, right?
So if you can do that,and you can sort of

(56:29):
get a sentiment, atleast use, sentiment
analysis, whatever,to, to see you're
making a difference.
And then feed that upto the person that hired
you, perhaps, right?
Yeah.
The important thingis for the team to say
collectively, yeah.
Since you've come here, we havedone these things.
And so how do you get to that?
You can ask the questions.

(56:50):
Mm-hmm.
You know and don'tsay, since I've come
here have we improved?
No.
You just say over thelast three months,
oh, by the way, you'veonly been on the team
for three months.
Right.
Or whatever.
Just say, what are someof the gains that the
team feels they've had?
Right.
Those down.
And then ask the question.
Why have we gotthose now as opposed
to in the past.
Mm-hmm.
Right.

(57:10):
Why couldn't we havedone those earlier?
And you'll start tosee things like, well,
you advise us to breakthings down smaller
into our sprints, orwhatever it might be.
Okay.
So you are making adifference, right?
It is just not havingpeople pat you on
the back explicitly.
So, but write thosedown and then feed them
up to the people thathired you so you can get

(57:32):
validation in this way.
For what it's worth,I mean, it's not
always to justifywhy you're there.
It's really to make surethat the team knows you
are there and you'remaking a difference.
Now having got tothat point, ? Project
forward, where dowe think we can go
having come this far?
Where's our nextstop on this train?
You just threw out agreat takeaway that

(57:53):
I wanna say, let metell you what I heard.
What I heard wasteams will resist the
coaching when theyfear losing something.
Yeah.
Whether it's autonomy orexpertise or whatever,
their identity beforeyou became a member of
their team or whatever.
Like, it doesn'tmatter what it is.
if you can come up tospeed and understand
what they're protecting,then maybe you can find

(58:15):
a way of making thechange less threatening.
, You're not gonna do thatif you're installed as
a member of managementand you're there to just
whip them harder, goodluck doing any of that.
And Keith, I agree with that.
I also think there'ssome, nuance here,
and that is if youare a member of.
Staff working for thecompany as opposed to
a consulting type ofcoach that comes in.

(58:36):
There's a differencehere, and I've seen this
perceptible difference.
It is very perceptible, right?
Yeah.
You can say the same thing thata member of staff
would say, but it'spoo-pooed on, right?
But here's a consultanttelling you the same
thing, and peoplewill listen to that.
Yeah.
And I think this islike an age old thing
with consulting anyway,but if you are a

(58:57):
consultant as a coach,remember that, right?
And if you are internaland you're a coach,
also remember that,you can wax lyrical
about all the thingsthat you're saying.
However, you needvalidation externally.
What you don't wannado is tell your
manager, Hey, look,I've done what I can.
I've only movedthe thing so far.
I'm like, Sisyphustrying to move a rock up a hill.

(59:17):
But you need to getan external consultant
because that.
Means you're outthe door, right?
So instead, do this, reach outto your community,
talk to people.
You don't have toex necessarily be
like, detailed aboutthe nuances of your
of your challengescompany, et cetera.
Get some validation.
Go to your boss and say,here's what I think.

(59:37):
And, and it's beenbacked up by these other people.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
These other luminariesor whatever that might help you.
But absolutely thereis that factor of an
external consultantversus an internal person saying
the same thing.
Well, that closes the category.
I'm bringing it to ourfinal and maybe most
practical question thatwe're gonna talk about,
which is you've beenassigned to coach a team

(59:59):
that you didn't ask for.
you've done everything right.
You checked assumptions,you built relationships,
you've clarified theproblems, and they're
still not engaging.
And they, they stillrevert to bad behavior.
At what point, Om,do you walk away?
There's a reasonyou gotta keep that
resume updated.
24 7 all the time.
And is because sometimesthings don't work out,

(01:00:19):
the team doesn't engage.
The organizationresists what you're
trying to do.
Everyone's goingthrough the motions.
People want you to meetthem where they are.
They tell you, youknow I need you to
stop rocking the boat.
Yeah.
Don't upset the Apple cart.
So, often what happensis consultants or even
regular employees,whoever they are, but
coaches will go inand say, I'm embedded.

(01:00:40):
I now need to succeed.
It's sort of likeyou're being thrown
into quicksand.
You have to survive.
There's an against thatI have written down.
That's exactly whatyou just said, which
is sometimes the mostimportant thing that
you can be is present.
Present and consistentfor a team that is
struggling and theyjust need one person

(01:01:01):
to help them build thetrust or the truth,
or whatever it is theyneed to get ahead.
And you might you, yeah.
Maybe super frustrating,but they just need
one person stickingup for them in this pathological
organization.
They're a part of that.
That's one side.
I only have, I onlyhave two against in this
category, so I'll justrattle both of 'em off.
Sure.
And the other sideis, many of the most

(01:01:22):
powerful coachingrelationships have a
good deal of resistanceinside of them.
So if the coach walksaway at the first time
of difficulty, whichI know that that's
not really what we'resaying at the first
time of difficulty, butif, if the coach walks
away when things getdifficult we, they don't
clearly see a successpath immediately or

(01:01:42):
within the trial period.
90 days or whatever.
They may miss theopportunities to
make a real impacton the organization
and these people'slives of the team.
So I only have twopoints is number one,
if you walk away toosoon, like these people
need an advocate.
You could havebeen that advocate.
The other thing isif you walk away too
soon, there's no judgeon what the correct
time period is.
Every team is different.

(01:02:03):
Walking away quote too soon.
it might be premature.
That's what I'm saying.
Yeah.
I mean, I am all willingto hear the foresight
of this category oflike, sometimes it's
better to walk away.
Yeah.
sometimes coaches arelooking for quick wins.
They go in, they'reeager, they've
been entrusted withthis duty right?
To go make this teambetter or whatever.
So they're lookingfor a quick win.

(01:02:24):
This is where you canreally sort out like
the people that arelooking to make a quick
impact versus peoplethat wanna make a real
lasting change, right.
With either a teamor an org, or both.
Yeah.
So that's one.
But the other thing is,should you have the
option to walk awayor at least be mindful
that you can walk away?

(01:02:45):
Absolutely.
Right.
You should absolutelyhave that, because
there is such a thingas Uncoachable team.
There is such a thingas an UNCOACHABLE
executive team.
At the end of theday, you may have
been brought in just as a pawn.
A scapegoat.
Yeah.
As a scapegoat.
So recognize itand then walk away.

(01:03:06):
The way you do thatin either of those
cases, right, is toset yourself a time
box and say, I'mhere for X number of
months, weeks, whateverit is, contextual.
Right?
If within that time Ihaven't made an impact
on these things Yeah.
Then this wasn'tmeant to be mm-hmm.
I'm not your person.

(01:03:27):
But don't do thatin your own head.
Do that explicitlyon a piece of paper,
virtually whateverin a document.
Yeah.
And share it with theperson that hired you
and say, you hiredme to do this right.
Now, here's the thing.
Here's what I'm gonna do.
So lay that out.
And it, again, it's,it's one page guys.

(01:03:48):
It's not like a big document.
One page.
This is like a productstrategy actually.
Exactly.
You're describinga product strategy.
Product strategy foryour being there.
And then you say, theseare things I wanna do.
These are thingsI need from you.
And then lastly,these are things that
I'm gonna deliver ifI get all of those.
If in three months,six months, whatever
it is, I haven't madea difference that

(01:04:09):
we agree is a realdifference, then I
will park company.
And you need to do that.
Don't look at it asa slight on yourself.
Don't also look atit as a blame on
the org or the team.
It's just sometimes.
The forces just don't align.
Two things right nowthat I don't know
if they're on thefour category or if
they're actually for,against, like you said.

(01:04:30):
Well, don't look atit on a as a slight
on the organization.
I don't know, likewalking away does
send a clear message.
It's just like anemployee quitting.
Like it does senda clear message.
It's like, hey, tothose that care.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, you make a point.
I mean, it does send a message.
Yeah, absolutely.
It sends a message toyour teams that this
guy, if you've builtrapport with them and
trust and they kindof believe in, in what

(01:04:51):
you're doing, right.
And then you leave, itsends a message that,
look, this is like nota salvageable situation.
Or they're just nottaking it seriously.
They're not boughtin, to change.
I mean, the other sideof that is the coach
that stays, because Ihave seen quite a few
of these coaches thatstay when even I, as
an outside observercan see this is.

(01:05:14):
There's no progress isgoing to be made here.
It sends a messageabout what these
coaches are in it for.
Yeah.
Because I can clearlyobserve from the
outside, all thesecoaches are, they're
obviously catchingtheir paychecks and
seemingly okay with thelack of progress until
the end of the term orwhatever their contract.
But it's not pretty.

(01:05:35):
And sometimes I've seenthat with coaches that
are internal to theorg, and they believe
that they're fine.
They're coasting untilone day they're not.
That's the exact placethat I've seen it,
is people internalto the org until
there's a big economicdownturn or whatever,
and then everybodywill be gone at once.
Continuing to coachteams that clearly are

(01:05:55):
resisting and don'twant coaching well
beyond whatever goals.
You said it's thesame thing with the
product strategy.
True.
Continuing a productstrategy that is not
working beyond, likeyou with all the
indicators and bellsand whistles going off
that it's not working.
Why would you do that?
Well, yeah, and also Ithink if you continue
doing that, you'reactually doing the org
a disservice, right?
Yeah.
To be quite honest withyou and, and yourself

(01:06:16):
and yourself too.
The takeaway herethat we outlined is
actually pretty good.
Set explicit timeframesand success criteria
at the start.
Yep.
Set some goals atthe start, just like
a product strategyset at the start.
Meet on a regularcadence to evaluate
the success criteriathat you set out.
Yeah.
Because it shouldn'tbe a surprise to anyone
that, Hey, this coachingengagement's not

(01:06:38):
working out or whatever.
Sure.
And then if it's notworking out, I either
try different tacticsor whatever, or call it
Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Different tacticscould include things
like, well, maybementoring as opposed
to coaching, et cetera.
Right.
There's various thingsyou can do, but again,
for the purpose ofthis podcast, I think
that's our takeaway.

(01:06:59):
So where does this leave us?
You can't effectivelycoach people who don't wanna be
coached, but teamsthat peer unwilling.
You can't coach peoplethat don't wanna be
coached or, or teamsthat don't wanna be
coached or both, right.
Teams that appearunwilling, they might
just be respondingrationally to a lack
of context or unclearproblems or broken

(01:07:19):
trust from the past.
You know, especiallyin these organizations
where they, theybrought in coaches
that were just like.
S spies of management.
The, the eyes and ears.
Oh, the eyes and ears.
The eyes and ears.
And so you're, you'relike, your job isn't
necessarily, as a coach,is not necessarily
overcoming resistance.
It's, it's understandingthe resistance and
then coaching tothe right solution.

(01:07:41):
Yeah.
I think part of thatis what you said
earlier what are theytrying to protect,
whether it's teams orRight, or executives
and understandingthat is key, right?
Well, that being said this is aninteresting podcast
that kind of cameoutta nowhere for us.
I'm glad that we coulddo one that was down,
down a lane of coaching.
I feel this appliesto executive level,
it applies to product,it applies to software
development teams.

(01:08:02):
Like it applies allup and down in all
aspects of business.
So it's not in onelane or another.
Absolutely.
Yeah, hopefully you all agree.
Again like like, andsubscribe and let us
know what you thinkabout this podcast
and potentially othertopics you'd like
us to delve into.
In the comments belowand hey, let's be
careful out there.
The Hill Street Bluesreference the older
people is, is that,

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