March 24, 2025 • 25 mins
Civic education is more relevant than ever as polarization seeps into classrooms, impacting both educators and students. We discuss the importance of fostering civil discourse and provide resources for teachers to engage their students in meaningful conversations about civic topics while aligning with state standards.
• The state of polarization among students and educators
• Alarming statistics on self-censorship in classrooms
• The age at which polarization begins affecting students
• Strategies for integrating civics into various subjects
• Starting civil discourse in early education
• Low-stakes ways to introduce controversial discussions
• Resources available for teachers from Sphere Education
• The importance of communication skills in student development
• The Sphere Summit as a significant professional development opportunity
• Overall benefits of engaging students in civic discourse
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Liz (00:00):
Welcome back to the Arizona Civics Podcast, where we're
connecting with leaders shapingcivic education and engagement.
Today we're excited to welcomeAllan Carey, a dedicated
advocate for civil discourse andcivic learning, as the Director
of Sphere Education Initiativesat the Cato Institute.
Allan leads efforts to supporteducators who teach grades 5
(00:21):
through 12 through programs likethe annual Sphere Summit.
Teach grades 5 through 12through programs like the annual
Sphere Summit, fosteringdiscussions on civic education,
civil discourse and theinstitutions that uphold
democracy.
His work helps teachersnavigate complex ideas while
promoting open inquiry anddiverse perspectives in the
class.
Before joining the CatoInstitute, Allan served as the
(00:41):
Director of Education at theCharles Koch Institute, where he
managed a range of educationalprograms for early career
professionals, developedtraining initiatives for a
network of over 1,500 employeesand led faculty engagement.
With a strong academicbackground, holding degrees in
political science, history andphilosophy from Ashland
(01:02):
University, as well as amaster's in politics for the
University of Dallas, he bringsa deep understanding of civic
thought and education.
Allan joins us to discuss therole of civic education in
shaping engaged citizens, theimportance of civil discourse
and how educators can navigatethese critical topics in today's
(01:22):
classroom.
Let's dive in.
I am very excited for our gueststoday.
So a couple years ago, Iactually went to an event in
downtown Phoenix at the OldPhoenix Union School District,
which is now a part of U of A,with the Sphere Education
Initiatives, and it was my firsttime doing anything and really
(01:44):
enjoyed the conversations thatwere had, and I wanted Allan on
the podcast because we're inchallenging times, we're in
really polarized times and oneof the things that I really
appreciate about sphereeducation is the research that
happens right, we're not justguessing.
So, Allan, would you like tointroduce yourself before we get
started?
Yeah, absolutely so.
Allan, would you like tointroduce yourself before we get
(02:06):
started?
Allan (02:07):
Yeah, absolutely, liz.
Thanks so much for having me.
It's a pleasure to be a gueston the podcast today and, like
Liz mentioned, I'm the Directorof Sphere Education Initiatives.
My work here is primarilydesigned to help educators
across the country those inmiddle school and high school,
across subject areas anddisciplines think about how we
can promote civil discourse,viewpoint diversity in the
(02:29):
classroom and overcome thatmeasure of polarization that, in
many ways, is not just rippingapart society as a whole but
creating so many painful anddifficult challenges for
educators in classrooms all overthe country.
Liz (02:42):
And I love that because I think that sometimes teachers
shy away from it because theydon't have the resources to do
that, and this is the time wherekids should be using that in
classrooms so that they can havekind of practice, almost right.
I don't remember what SupremeCourt Justice called schools the
laboratory for democracy but,this is where these
conversations are happening, soI'd like you to start with a
(03:05):
little bit of the research onwhy this is happening.
Allan (03:09):
Absolutely so.
I'll point to a few things.
I could go on all day aboutpolarization and where it's
coming from and some of theconsequences we see, but one
thing that I think is verystartling for most people to
realize the Rand Corporationcame out with this great survey
a couple of years ago taking alook at what's happening in
classrooms, and it caused quitea stir when it came out and it
said something along the linesof about 65% of educators have
(03:33):
actively self-censored in theclassroom in the last year when
it comes to social or politicalissues in the classroom and
again, this is not things thatwould be age inappropriate or be
wrong for the subject area.
These are like things that makesense Teachers are choosing not
to engage in them.
Why and part of the big problemis what we talk about as
polarization, sort of thatideological distance between
(03:56):
parties or that perceiveddistance between people.
When it comes to politics inthe United States we are very,
very polarized the distancebetween Republicans and
Democrats and conservatives andprogressives.
It feels like a yawning gulfright now between people and we
see that impacting people insociety.
(04:17):
There's this great study thatwas done a couple of times
throughout history by facultymembers at Stanford University
who've taken a look at when doespolarization tend to happen,
and the first time they did itin the early 80s.
One of the things that theyfound is that most polarization
at the time was happening rightaround 19 or 20 years old.
Right, you get to be in Dalton,you're in the world.
(04:38):
This is sort of thepost-Vietnam era Made sense.
They revisited some of thosestudies in the last handful of
years and what they found isthat that age of polarization
has just plummeted.
So now the average age ofpolarization in America is 11
years old, so by the time thestudents are in middle school,
they're already heavilypolarized.
Now, one thing to note aboutall that, of course, is this
(05:01):
doesn't mean like deepresearched, fundamental
adherence to one party or theother and why they believe what
they do.
It's a my group versus yourgroup and us versus them
mentality.
I don't know what it means tobe a democrat, but I am one and
I know you're bad if you're not,and we see that play out in a
bunch of other things.
Just to share one other examplepew's done some fantastic
(05:23):
research on this and, uh, twotwo recent surveys that came out
in 2022 and 2023 really playedthe picture of what's happening
here in uh.
When they ask people what's itlike having a conversation with
your partisan opponent, likesomeone who ascribes to whatever
the opposite ideological uhpiece happens to be, you go back
to about 2016 or so.
(05:44):
Most people would describe thatas something like interesting
or informative, like just over50% Most recent versions of that
it's completely inverted.
It's about 60% refer to thoseconversations as frustrating and
stressful.
And they did another one whereit said all right, you are a
Democrat comparing to otherDemocrats or a Republican
comparing to other Republicans.
(06:05):
How do you view the other side?
On a variety of sort of moralcharacteristics, like being
hardworking, intelligent, thingsalong those lines, by
overwhelming majorities in allof those cases, generally
speaking, partisans review theirantagonist as lazy, immoral,
ignorant all of the worstattributes you can think about.
(06:27):
And that's infecting allelements society, schools,
classrooms, all the way acrossthe board.
Liz (06:56):
Wow, I really want to dig into the their political
opposites as somebody who islazy.
We want them to learn from themand have conversation, so how
can we do that in a mannerthat's beneficial to students
but also in line with statestandards, because teachers are
required to teach statestandards.
We really want to make surewe're not just spending time on
(07:17):
things that don't align withwhat they need to do.
Allan (07:20):
Yeah, lots of good reasons to overcome polarization
, and one of the just one of thebiggest ones to hit before
getting directly to yourquestion is the we're really
wrong about what other peoplebelieve.
We believe extremities of whatthe other position is that are
often vastly uninformed by whatpeople actually believe, hold
(07:40):
and do, and that creates a kindof distrust and hatred of the
other side.
So you're spot on with thisnotion of we've got to help
young people break this cycle,because that's where it's
happening first, and if you cancreate that healthy habit of
openness and curiosity at ayoung age that continues
throughout a lifetime, and youcan break that cycle of saying
(08:02):
anger in early ages lead tohatred and dissatisfaction later
in life.
So how do we do that?
Like you talk about, teachers,especially educators in public
schools, have a variety ofdifferent expectations placed
upon them around state standards, curriculum responsibilities,
local school mandates for howthey approach a variety of
different issues.
All of that can get reallymessy.
(08:22):
First and foremost, double downon the state standards.
There's so many reallyinteresting and important topics
that are required to be taughtacross all subject areas and
disciplines.
Often there's this concern if Iteach something, am I going to
get fired?
Am I going to get demoted?
Am I going to get fired?
Am I going to like?
Am I going to get demoted?
Am I going to get hauled infront of the school board for
these conversations?
(08:43):
If I do it, well, look first toyour standards.
What does your state say youcan do when it comes to thinking
about controversial topics Like, in US history, race relations
across US history?
It is hard to tell the story ofUS history without digging into
that, and every state that I'maware of has key standards about
history.
Teachers needing to touch ontopics, whether that's slavery
(09:06):
in the American founding, theCivil War, the impact of the
civil rights movement and so on.
Each of those provide reallyinteresting opportunities to dig
into hard conversations, but ina way that explores the
fullness of what is acomplicated historical narrative
.
It's never really easy, it'snever really cut and dry.
I think that's one key piece.
However, one otherrecommendation, as teachers are
(09:28):
looking to get started in someof these things it's put your
students in a position to drivethat measure of curiosity.
If they're asking interestingquestions, if they're bringing
things in about the world aroundthem, that provides a really
fruitful opportunity for robust,civil and viewpoint diverse
conversation to happen.
You can explore all sorts ofinteresting things, especially
(09:50):
if you're not in, say, a socialstudies class.
Or if something interestingcomes up and you're a biology
teacher, you're a chemistryteacher, you're a math teacher
this is a great avenue.
Or if you're a biology teacher,you're a chemistry teacher,
you're a math teacher, this is agreat avenue.
Or if you're a coach or youadvise a club.
All these are opportunities forstudents to talk and discuss
and engage, and can you be therefor them as an educator to
model the right way of engagingin those kinds of conversations?
Liz (10:14):
So kind of talking about that too.
I think one of the things youknow math teachers are like I
don't teach social studiesbecause there's sometimes an
assumption that civics is asiloed thing, that you only
teach one hour a day.
If I'm a math teacher whoteaches seventh grade, why
should I include civics and whatare some low stakes ways?
(10:37):
Right, because I don't wantmath teachers to think like well
, I don't know history and Idon't know politics, so how can
I even have civil discourse inmy classroom?
Allan (10:47):
Absolutely.
I think I hold the positionthat all education is civics
education.
No matter what you're doing,where you are, you're helping
young people better understandwhat does it mean to grow up, to
become an adult, to engage incivil society in all the various
ways that one does that, bothin terms of the curriculum that
you're touching on and the waythat they interact with each
(11:09):
other.
Every class, almost withoutexception, I've ever had there's
been an opportunity to talk, tohave conversations, to engage
in things, even if they're notjust the core subject area.
I remember I had a calculusteacher where we had fantastic
conversations, above and beyondjust solving for differential
equations, like lots ofinteresting things that you can
(11:31):
do.
But even more than that,there's lots of ways to tie the
curriculum to current events, tothings that are happening in
the world, the pieces that makesense in the local community or
the school.
A math lesson is a great way tounderstand controversial
conversations about things likewhere should federal spending go
, or there needs to be a levy inthe local community to support
building new schools.
(11:51):
That's a math conversation.
How do you understand that, howdo you approach it and how do
you help people think it through?
How does our curriculum applyto the circumstances around them
?
All of those are beautifulspaces to have those kinds of
conversations.
Liz (12:06):
What if I'm a second grade teacher and I just want to start
having, like teaching kids kindof the rules of civil discourse
, because kids don't just showup to school knowing how to talk
about?
You know and for and for forsecond grade controversy might
be like something silly, but why?
Why even start with?
(12:26):
You know even kindergarten,right, why start there and how?
How do we start there?
Allan (12:32):
Absolutely I.
I love that.
The earlier the students are,you get such a, you have a lot
going right for you.
One.
They're not holding back.
They've got thoughts they wantto share.
They want to engage.
They don't know a great dealand so you don't want to have
conversations that are wellabove their age level.
But you can start by havingthinking about how do I help
(12:53):
them grow into being able tohave hard conversations by being
really good at havingconversations.
So start by getting thempracticing on things that are
sort of high stakes but lowimportance conversations right.
So things like is a hot dog asandwich?
Little kids love thatconversation.
(13:14):
Or a million other questionslike does pineapple belong on
pizza?
Which sports team are yourooting for?
Who's the better singer?
Any of those opportunities whereyou get them talking, it's high
controversy, so they want tojump in, they want to engage,
but their excitement preciselyallows for the like building up
the muscle that it takes to haveregular and convincing
(13:35):
conversation.
That's the best thing you canbe doing at an early age If you
get used to the idea.
In class we talk about thingsthat we disagree.
We do so in a way that isrespectful and follows norms
consistent with the school andthe community that we're in and
I'm comfortable being willing todo it right from the beginning
that builds and builds, andbuilds, so that by the time
(13:56):
they're in middle school or highschool and they're having more
of these more strenuous ordifficult conversations, well,
they're well prepared for theeasy part, right.
Having conversations is justnormally good and it's not a
sign you hate someone, you can'tbe their friend, whatever it
might happen to be.
You can trust that you can havea conversation and it's not
(14:17):
going to spill out into fightsin gym class or whatever else it
might happen to be.
Liz (14:23):
I think that's an important thing too and I think sometimes
it's important even to do thosewith high schoolers.
I always started my APGov withmy seniors with silly things
like what is better dinosaurs ordragons, right, and it's a
reminder and a refresher, thesesilly conversations, because
(14:48):
when you're having, you know, akid asks a question, you start
to have kind of those harderconversations.
It's easy to say, hey, rememberour dragons and dinos
conversation.
We need to remember these norms.
Maybe we need to add anotherone as a classroom community and
go from there.
So I love I mean civics does itstarts in pre-kindergarten even
, because they're a member of acommunity and they don't all
(15:10):
agree on things.
So it's a good place for themto have these practice
conversations because thenthey're different classrooms,
communities.
However, we're noticing ourschool community, we're noticing
(15:30):
, you know, kind of our biggerlocal community and our state
community.
So things like that areimportant and any teacher can do
it.
Allan (15:37):
Absolutely, and I will say this.
There are a few things thatimpress colleges, universities,
employers more than having youngpeople who are starting out in
that career path already havingthe really robust ability to
communicate, to engage, to takefeedback, to be able to do those
kinds of things.
So in the sense that it fills acivic mission of schools even
(16:00):
more broadly by preparing youngpeople for life as such, right,
if I'm an employer and I havethe choice between two young
people one with just sort ofstellar academic credentials but
can't talk right, can't engage,is shuts down in those
challenging environments, orsomeone who really can and can
learn, I'm taking that secondone every single day of the week
(16:21):
.
It's an incredibly valuableskillset to build in our young
people.
Liz (16:26):
Yes.
So if I am a new teacher and Iam looking for, what kind of
resources does Sphere have forme, because I don't know how to
do this.
You know where would you pointteachers to?
Allan (16:38):
Absolutely.
Let me recommend three quickthings.
So one Sphere's website,sphere-edorg.
We have a couple of hundredresources.
They're all free.
They focus on things like thepedagogy of civil discourse and
free speech, talking about howto get started in those things.
But then they also have a bunchof resources that are subject
area specific on how you applythese things for social studies,
(17:00):
civics, history educators,economics, english language arts
We'll be getting into STEM soonso a bunch of really neat
things.
Again, all free PDFs, googleDocs easily manipulable Use them
as you need.
Two we do regular programming inschools and around the country
and webinars for educators.
So usually about once a monthor twice a month we'll have one
(17:20):
of those coming up Check themout.
But the main thing that I wantto recommend is our Sphere
Summit.
It's a fantastic program.
It's a five-day fullscholarship event in Washington
DC.
Cover your hotel, your food.
There's a $500 travel stipendinvolved in it.
What we do is we bring a coupleof hundred educators at a time
out to Washington DC for fivedays of programming on the most
(17:41):
challenging and divisive issuesof the day Immigration, criminal
justice, poverty alleviation,war, debt spending.
Probably day Immigration,criminal justice, poverty
alleviation, war, debt spendingI'll be talking a lot about
tariffs this summer.
It seems to be somethingeveryone's fighting about, but
what we do is we bring scholarsand academics, members of
Congress and others togetherfrom across the ideological
spectrum progressive,conservative, libertarian to
model that measure of civildiscourse on those challenging
(18:04):
issues and have conversationswith teachers.
What does it mean?
How does it apply when teachersare treated as professionals
and equals in the conversation?
Then we paired up withfantastic professional
development, both from SWERA andfrom so many great partners
like Bill of Rights Institute,the National Constitution Center
, retro Report and others.
How do you bring these ideasback to your school and
classroom?
(18:24):
It's incredible.
Applications are open now.
Please do apply.
A couple of fun ones coming upthis summer.
One on the 250th of theDeclaration of Independence is
the theme End of June.
It's going to be a fantasticexperience, but I do encourage
you all apply soon.
Come on out, we'd love to haveyou.
Liz (18:41):
And I do want to pinpoint.
You did say scholarships.
If I'm again, I'm a new teacherI'm barely making anything.
I can go because the payments,like out-of-pocket costs, is not
going to be a thing.
Allan (18:54):
It's really negligible.
Really, you're only responsiblefor getting yourself to
Washington DC, and after theevent you walk out with that
$500 stipend.
So, however, you bestcoordinate your travel to make
that happen and I can assure youit is in fact possible to fly
from Arizona to DC in under $500.
Liz (19:18):
It definitely is.
I love this type ofprofessional development.
Allan (19:20):
I have yet to come to a SPHERE summit.
At some point I will.
Liz (19:21):
There's still time.
It allows teachers to practiceand to have conversations with
other professionals who are inthe classroom.
And learning from people, againon all sides of the spectrum,
is such a powerful thing becauseyou can see it in action and
then you can think okay, how doI bring this back to my
classroom?
What does this look like in myclassroom?
(19:43):
And I think that, again, thebest professional development
puts you in the seat of astudent so that you get to learn
.
There are a lot of teachers outthere that don't have political
science degrees, they don'thave history degrees and a lot
of the stuff that's happeninglately.
They don't know what to do with, and so events like this five
(20:03):
days is the perfect amount oftime to have these conversations
and to really put yourself inthe seat of a learner, to go
back to your classroom with.
Allan (20:14):
I think that's key.
As we approach these events, welook at a few things as being
really important.
One, we've got to make theopportunity cost for educators
nearly zero.
That is like cost got to bethere.
You respect them asprofessionals.
You understand the demands ontheir time.
But two, we also want to beputting it in an environment
that it really drivesprofessional learning for them.
(20:34):
Sure, you're going to walk awaywith a bunch of practical
skills and knowledge andresources, but it's about you
and your learning experience andengaging in these things and
honestly, this year, at a timewhen things seem so chaotic,
what's happening?
They'll be able to walk awayfrom these conversations with an
eye towards saying here'swhat's real about what's
(20:55):
happening, here's what's noiseand here's how I can take the
value of that conversation backto my students and community.
Liz (21:02):
And I really love that because I think that, no matter
what the challenge is becausewe've been through challenging
times before, you know, we feellike we're in them now.
They will happen again, butorganizations, civic
organizations like us are theones that say like we're just
staying in the course, right,we're going to, we're going to
do what we do best, because thatit almost gives a sense of calm
(21:22):
to teachers Like I have achallenge.
This is really stressful.
I know I can go to sphere andlearn about how to have you know
civil dialogue and what thatlooks like in my classroom, and
so, yes, it's a challenge, but Ihave resources to help me and
to help my students.
Allan (21:40):
It's a it's a fantastic time.
I can't wait to welcome so manyof the people listening to this
podcast to come join us,because it's it is a lot of fun
and if, for some reason, thissummer doesn't work out for you,
come back next year.
We'll be holding them and thenalso doing events all around the
country, like the one that youwent to Liz in Arizona, where,
partnering with schools anduniversities and teachers all
(22:01):
over the country to try andbring these resources to as many
educators as we can.
Liz (22:06):
Awesome.
I have one last question foryou, because it's civics and
history.
Who is your favorite historicalfigure?
Somebody you find interesting,whatever that looks like, it's a
hard question.
Allan (22:18):
That's the toughest question you've asked me yet.
This is a weird one bit of anoddball answer, but the first
one that came to me a Greekfigure during the Peloponnesian
War by the name of Alcibiades.
So Alcibiades he's an Athenian,but then he also spends at
various points during thePeloponnesian War as a general
(22:41):
and leader of the Spartans andfor a period of time of the
Persians, as part of theconquest that's happening on
that side.
It's just a fascinatingarchetype of well ancient
questions of virtue and justiceand loyalty.
And what does that mean?
I wouldn't say a good person byany means, but a fascinating
(23:03):
historical figure.
Liz (23:05):
I think.
Sometimes, though, we think we,you know, when we're asked
these questions, we think wehave to pick somebody who, like,
espouses all these you knowvirtues, and what we often
forget is these are humans,right, Even if you were to be
like George Washington, it'slike.
Well, george Washington evennoted his flaws, and that's the
beauty of studying history isthese people are perfect.
Allan (23:27):
Absolutely.
Liz (23:30):
Thank you so much.
I am so excited to share thiswith teachers in Arizona, but
also we have listeners fromeverywhere and I will put all of
the links, especially the linkto the Summer Institute, in our
notes and all of your socialcontacts, things like that.
But thank you so much, Allan.
(23:50):
I really appreciate the workyou guys are doing around civil
discourse.
It's so important and it's sohelpful for educators and for
students.
Allan (23:59):
Liz again, thanks so much for having me.
This was a fantasticconversation and really glad I
could be here today.
Welcome back to the Arizona Civics Podcast, where we're
connecting with leaders shapingcivic education and engagement.
Today we're excited to welcomeAllan Carey, a dedicated
advocate for civil discourse andcivic learning, as the Director
of Sphere Education Initiativesat the Cato Institute.
Allan leads efforts to supporteducators who teach grades 5
(00:21):
through 12 through programs likethe annual Sphere Summit.
Teach grades 5 through 12through programs like the annual
Sphere Summit, fosteringdiscussions on civic education,
civil discourse and theinstitutions that uphold
democracy.
His work helps teachersnavigate complex ideas while
promoting open inquiry anddiverse perspectives in the
class.
Before joining the CatoInstitute, Allan served as the
(00:41):
Director of Education at theCharles Koch Institute, where he
managed a range of educationalprograms for early career
professionals, developedtraining initiatives for a
network of over 1,500 employeesand led faculty engagement.
With a strong academicbackground, holding degrees in
political science, history andphilosophy from Ashland
(01:02):
University, as well as amaster's in politics for the
University of Dallas, he bringsa deep understanding of civic
thought and education.
Allan joins us to discuss therole of civic education in
shaping engaged citizens, theimportance of civil discourse
and how educators can navigatethese critical topics in today's
(01:22):
classroom.
Let's dive in.
I am very excited for our gueststoday.
So a couple years ago, Iactually went to an event in
downtown Phoenix at the OldPhoenix Union School District,
which is now a part of U of A,with the Sphere Education
Initiatives, and it was my firsttime doing anything and really
(01:44):
enjoyed the conversations thatwere had, and I wanted Allan on
the podcast because we're inchallenging times, we're in
really polarized times and oneof the things that I really
appreciate about sphereeducation is the research that
happens right, we're not justguessing.
So, Allan, would you like tointroduce yourself before we get
started?
Yeah, absolutely so.
Allan, would you like tointroduce yourself before we get
(02:06):
started?
Allan (02:07):
Yeah, absolutely, liz.
Thanks so much for having me.
It's a pleasure to be a gueston the podcast today and, like
Liz mentioned, I'm the Directorof Sphere Education Initiatives.
My work here is primarilydesigned to help educators
across the country those inmiddle school and high school,
across subject areas anddisciplines think about how we
can promote civil discourse,viewpoint diversity in the
(02:29):
classroom and overcome thatmeasure of polarization that, in
many ways, is not just rippingapart society as a whole but
creating so many painful anddifficult challenges for
educators in classrooms all overthe country.
Liz (02:42):
And I love that because I think that sometimes teachers
shy away from it because theydon't have the resources to do
that, and this is the time wherekids should be using that in
classrooms so that they can havekind of practice, almost right.
I don't remember what SupremeCourt Justice called schools the
laboratory for democracy but,this is where these
conversations are happening, soI'd like you to start with a
(03:05):
little bit of the research onwhy this is happening.
Allan (03:09):
Absolutely so.
I'll point to a few things.
I could go on all day aboutpolarization and where it's
coming from and some of theconsequences we see, but one
thing that I think is verystartling for most people to
realize the Rand Corporationcame out with this great survey
a couple of years ago taking alook at what's happening in
classrooms, and it caused quitea stir when it came out and it
said something along the linesof about 65% of educators have
(03:33):
actively self-censored in theclassroom in the last year when
it comes to social or politicalissues in the classroom and
again, this is not things thatwould be age inappropriate or be
wrong for the subject area.
These are like things that makesense Teachers are choosing not
to engage in them.
Why and part of the big problemis what we talk about as
polarization, sort of thatideological distance between
(03:56):
parties or that perceiveddistance between people.
When it comes to politics inthe United States we are very,
very polarized the distancebetween Republicans and
Democrats and conservatives andprogressives.
It feels like a yawning gulfright now between people and we
see that impacting people insociety.
(04:17):
There's this great study thatwas done a couple of times
throughout history by facultymembers at Stanford University
who've taken a look at when doespolarization tend to happen,
and the first time they did itin the early 80s.
One of the things that theyfound is that most polarization
at the time was happening rightaround 19 or 20 years old.
Right, you get to be in Dalton,you're in the world.
(04:38):
This is sort of thepost-Vietnam era Made sense.
They revisited some of thosestudies in the last handful of
years and what they found isthat that age of polarization
has just plummeted.
So now the average age ofpolarization in America is 11
years old, so by the time thestudents are in middle school,
they're already heavilypolarized.
Now, one thing to note aboutall that, of course, is this
(05:01):
doesn't mean like deepresearched, fundamental
adherence to one party or theother and why they believe what
they do.
It's a my group versus yourgroup and us versus them
mentality.
I don't know what it means tobe a democrat, but I am one and
I know you're bad if you're not,and we see that play out in a
bunch of other things.
Just to share one other examplepew's done some fantastic
(05:23):
research on this and, uh, twotwo recent surveys that came out
in 2022 and 2023 really playedthe picture of what's happening
here in uh.
When they ask people what's itlike having a conversation with
your partisan opponent, likesomeone who ascribes to whatever
the opposite ideological uhpiece happens to be, you go back
to about 2016 or so.
(05:44):
Most people would describe thatas something like interesting
or informative, like just over50% Most recent versions of that
it's completely inverted.
It's about 60% refer to thoseconversations as frustrating and
stressful.
And they did another one whereit said all right, you are a
Democrat comparing to otherDemocrats or a Republican
comparing to other Republicans.
(06:05):
How do you view the other side?
On a variety of sort of moralcharacteristics, like being
hardworking, intelligent, thingsalong those lines, by
overwhelming majorities in allof those cases, generally
speaking, partisans review theirantagonist as lazy, immoral,
ignorant all of the worstattributes you can think about.
(06:27):
And that's infecting allelements society, schools,
classrooms, all the way acrossthe board.
Liz (06:56):
Wow, I really want to dig into the their political
opposites as somebody who islazy.
We want them to learn from themand have conversation, so how
can we do that in a mannerthat's beneficial to students
but also in line with statestandards, because teachers are
required to teach statestandards.
We really want to make surewe're not just spending time on
(07:17):
things that don't align withwhat they need to do.
Allan (07:20):
Yeah, lots of good reasons to overcome polarization
, and one of the just one of thebiggest ones to hit before
getting directly to yourquestion is the we're really
wrong about what other peoplebelieve.
We believe extremities of whatthe other position is that are
often vastly uninformed by whatpeople actually believe, hold
(07:40):
and do, and that creates a kindof distrust and hatred of the
other side.
So you're spot on with thisnotion of we've got to help
young people break this cycle,because that's where it's
happening first, and if you cancreate that healthy habit of
openness and curiosity at ayoung age that continues
throughout a lifetime, and youcan break that cycle of saying
(08:02):
anger in early ages lead tohatred and dissatisfaction later
in life.
So how do we do that?
Like you talk about, teachers,especially educators in public
schools, have a variety ofdifferent expectations placed
upon them around state standards, curriculum responsibilities,
local school mandates for howthey approach a variety of
different issues.
All of that can get reallymessy.
(08:22):
First and foremost, double downon the state standards.
There's so many reallyinteresting and important topics
that are required to be taughtacross all subject areas and
disciplines.
Often there's this concern if Iteach something, am I going to
get fired?
Am I going to get demoted?
Am I going to get fired?
Am I going to like?
Am I going to get demoted?
Am I going to get hauled infront of the school board for
these conversations?
(08:43):
If I do it, well, look first toyour standards.
What does your state say youcan do when it comes to thinking
about controversial topics Like, in US history, race relations
across US history?
It is hard to tell the story ofUS history without digging into
that, and every state that I'maware of has key standards about
history.
Teachers needing to touch ontopics, whether that's slavery
(09:06):
in the American founding, theCivil War, the impact of the
civil rights movement and so on.
Each of those provide reallyinteresting opportunities to dig
into hard conversations, but ina way that explores the
fullness of what is acomplicated historical narrative
.
It's never really easy, it'snever really cut and dry.
I think that's one key piece.
However, one otherrecommendation, as teachers are
(09:28):
looking to get started in someof these things it's put your
students in a position to drivethat measure of curiosity.
If they're asking interestingquestions, if they're bringing
things in about the world aroundthem, that provides a really
fruitful opportunity for robust,civil and viewpoint diverse
conversation to happen.
You can explore all sorts ofinteresting things, especially
(09:50):
if you're not in, say, a socialstudies class.
Or if something interestingcomes up and you're a biology
teacher, you're a chemistryteacher, you're a math teacher
this is a great avenue.
Or if you're a biology teacher,you're a chemistry teacher,
you're a math teacher, this is agreat avenue.
Or if you're a coach or youadvise a club.
All these are opportunities forstudents to talk and discuss
and engage, and can you be therefor them as an educator to
model the right way of engagingin those kinds of conversations?
Liz (10:14):
So kind of talking about that too.
I think one of the things youknow math teachers are like I
don't teach social studiesbecause there's sometimes an
assumption that civics is asiloed thing, that you only
teach one hour a day.
If I'm a math teacher whoteaches seventh grade, why
should I include civics and whatare some low stakes ways?
(10:37):
Right, because I don't wantmath teachers to think like well
, I don't know history and Idon't know politics, so how can
I even have civil discourse inmy classroom?
Allan (10:47):
Absolutely.
I think I hold the positionthat all education is civics
education.
No matter what you're doing,where you are, you're helping
young people better understandwhat does it mean to grow up, to
become an adult, to engage incivil society in all the various
ways that one does that, bothin terms of the curriculum that
you're touching on and the waythat they interact with each
(11:09):
other.
Every class, almost withoutexception, I've ever had there's
been an opportunity to talk, tohave conversations, to engage
in things, even if they're notjust the core subject area.
I remember I had a calculusteacher where we had fantastic
conversations, above and beyondjust solving for differential
equations, like lots ofinteresting things that you can
(11:31):
do.
But even more than that,there's lots of ways to tie the
curriculum to current events, tothings that are happening in
the world, the pieces that makesense in the local community or
the school.
A math lesson is a great way tounderstand controversial
conversations about things likewhere should federal spending go
, or there needs to be a levy inthe local community to support
building new schools.
(11:51):
That's a math conversation.
How do you understand that, howdo you approach it and how do
you help people think it through?
How does our curriculum applyto the circumstances around them
?
All of those are beautifulspaces to have those kinds of
conversations.
Liz (12:06):
What if I'm a second grade teacher and I just want to start
having, like teaching kids kindof the rules of civil discourse
, because kids don't just showup to school knowing how to talk
about?
You know and for and for forsecond grade controversy might
be like something silly, but why?
Why even start with?
(12:26):
You know even kindergarten,right, why start there and how?
How do we start there?
Allan (12:32):
Absolutely I.
I love that.
The earlier the students are,you get such a, you have a lot
going right for you.
One.
They're not holding back.
They've got thoughts they wantto share.
They want to engage.
They don't know a great dealand so you don't want to have
conversations that are wellabove their age level.
But you can start by havingthinking about how do I help
(12:53):
them grow into being able tohave hard conversations by being
really good at havingconversations.
So start by getting thempracticing on things that are
sort of high stakes but lowimportance conversations right.
So things like is a hot dog asandwich?
Little kids love thatconversation.
(13:14):
Or a million other questionslike does pineapple belong on
pizza?
Which sports team are yourooting for?
Who's the better singer?
Any of those opportunities whereyou get them talking, it's high
controversy, so they want tojump in, they want to engage,
but their excitement preciselyallows for the like building up
the muscle that it takes to haveregular and convincing
(13:35):
conversation.
That's the best thing you canbe doing at an early age If you
get used to the idea.
In class we talk about thingsthat we disagree.
We do so in a way that isrespectful and follows norms
consistent with the school andthe community that we're in and
I'm comfortable being willing todo it right from the beginning
that builds and builds, andbuilds, so that by the time
(13:56):
they're in middle school or highschool and they're having more
of these more strenuous ordifficult conversations, well,
they're well prepared for theeasy part, right.
Having conversations is justnormally good and it's not a
sign you hate someone, you can'tbe their friend, whatever it
might happen to be.
You can trust that you can havea conversation and it's not
(14:17):
going to spill out into fightsin gym class or whatever else it
might happen to be.
Liz (14:23):
I think that's an important thing too and I think sometimes
it's important even to do thosewith high schoolers.
I always started my APGov withmy seniors with silly things
like what is better dinosaurs ordragons, right, and it's a
reminder and a refresher, thesesilly conversations, because
(14:48):
when you're having, you know, akid asks a question, you start
to have kind of those harderconversations.
It's easy to say, hey, rememberour dragons and dinos
conversation.
We need to remember these norms.
Maybe we need to add anotherone as a classroom community and
go from there.
So I love I mean civics does itstarts in pre-kindergarten even
, because they're a member of acommunity and they don't all
(15:10):
agree on things.
So it's a good place for themto have these practice
conversations because thenthey're different classrooms,
communities.
However, we're noticing ourschool community, we're noticing
(15:30):
, you know, kind of our biggerlocal community and our state
community.
So things like that areimportant and any teacher can do
it.
Allan (15:37):
Absolutely, and I will say this.
There are a few things thatimpress colleges, universities,
employers more than having youngpeople who are starting out in
that career path already havingthe really robust ability to
communicate, to engage, to takefeedback, to be able to do those
kinds of things.
So in the sense that it fills acivic mission of schools even
(16:00):
more broadly by preparing youngpeople for life as such, right,
if I'm an employer and I havethe choice between two young
people one with just sort ofstellar academic credentials but
can't talk right, can't engage,is shuts down in those
challenging environments, orsomeone who really can and can
learn, I'm taking that secondone every single day of the week
(16:21):
.
It's an incredibly valuableskillset to build in our young
people.
Liz (16:26):
Yes.
So if I am a new teacher and Iam looking for, what kind of
resources does Sphere have forme, because I don't know how to
do this.
You know where would you pointteachers to?
Allan (16:38):
Absolutely.
Let me recommend three quickthings.
So one Sphere's website,sphere-edorg.
We have a couple of hundredresources.
They're all free.
They focus on things like thepedagogy of civil discourse and
free speech, talking about howto get started in those things.
But then they also have a bunchof resources that are subject
area specific on how you applythese things for social studies,
(17:00):
civics, history educators,economics, english language arts
We'll be getting into STEM soonso a bunch of really neat
things.
Again, all free PDFs, googleDocs easily manipulable Use them
as you need.
Two we do regular programming inschools and around the country
and webinars for educators.
So usually about once a monthor twice a month we'll have one
(17:20):
of those coming up Check themout.
But the main thing that I wantto recommend is our Sphere
Summit.
It's a fantastic program.
It's a five-day fullscholarship event in Washington
DC.
Cover your hotel, your food.
There's a $500 travel stipendinvolved in it.
What we do is we bring a coupleof hundred educators at a time
out to Washington DC for fivedays of programming on the most
(17:41):
challenging and divisive issuesof the day Immigration, criminal
justice, poverty alleviation,war, debt spending.
Probably day Immigration,criminal justice, poverty
alleviation, war, debt spendingI'll be talking a lot about
tariffs this summer.
It seems to be somethingeveryone's fighting about, but
what we do is we bring scholarsand academics, members of
Congress and others togetherfrom across the ideological
spectrum progressive,conservative, libertarian to
model that measure of civildiscourse on those challenging
(18:04):
issues and have conversationswith teachers.
What does it mean?
How does it apply when teachersare treated as professionals
and equals in the conversation?
Then we paired up withfantastic professional
development, both from SWERA andfrom so many great partners
like Bill of Rights Institute,the National Constitution Center
, retro Report and others.
How do you bring these ideasback to your school and
classroom?
(18:24):
It's incredible.
Applications are open now.
Please do apply.
A couple of fun ones coming upthis summer.
One on the 250th of theDeclaration of Independence is
the theme End of June.
It's going to be a fantasticexperience, but I do encourage
you all apply soon.
Come on out, we'd love to haveyou.
Liz (18:41):
And I do want to pinpoint.
You did say scholarships.
If I'm again, I'm a new teacherI'm barely making anything.
I can go because the payments,like out-of-pocket costs, is not
going to be a thing.
Allan (18:54):
It's really negligible.
Really, you're only responsiblefor getting yourself to
Washington DC, and after theevent you walk out with that
$500 stipend.
So, however, you bestcoordinate your travel to make
that happen and I can assure youit is in fact possible to fly
from Arizona to DC in under $500.
Liz (19:18):
It definitely is.
I love this type ofprofessional development.
Allan (19:20):
I have yet to come to a SPHERE summit.
At some point I will.
Liz (19:21):
There's still time.
It allows teachers to practiceand to have conversations with
other professionals who are inthe classroom.
And learning from people, againon all sides of the spectrum,
is such a powerful thing becauseyou can see it in action and
then you can think okay, how doI bring this back to my
classroom?
What does this look like in myclassroom?
(19:43):
And I think that, again, thebest professional development
puts you in the seat of astudent so that you get to learn
.
There are a lot of teachers outthere that don't have political
science degrees, they don'thave history degrees and a lot
of the stuff that's happeninglately.
They don't know what to do with, and so events like this five
(20:03):
days is the perfect amount oftime to have these conversations
and to really put yourself inthe seat of a learner, to go
back to your classroom with.
Allan (20:14):
I think that's key.
As we approach these events, welook at a few things as being
really important.
One, we've got to make theopportunity cost for educators
nearly zero.
That is like cost got to bethere.
You respect them asprofessionals.
You understand the demands ontheir time.
But two, we also want to beputting it in an environment
that it really drivesprofessional learning for them.
(20:34):
Sure, you're going to walk awaywith a bunch of practical
skills and knowledge andresources, but it's about you
and your learning experience andengaging in these things and
honestly, this year, at a timewhen things seem so chaotic,
what's happening?
They'll be able to walk awayfrom these conversations with an
eye towards saying here'swhat's real about what's
(20:55):
happening, here's what's noiseand here's how I can take the
value of that conversation backto my students and community.
Liz (21:02):
And I really love that because I think that, no matter
what the challenge is becausewe've been through challenging
times before, you know, we feellike we're in them now.
They will happen again, butorganizations, civic
organizations like us are theones that say like we're just
staying in the course, right,we're going to, we're going to
do what we do best, because thatit almost gives a sense of calm
(21:22):
to teachers Like I have achallenge.
This is really stressful.
I know I can go to sphere andlearn about how to have you know
civil dialogue and what thatlooks like in my classroom, and
so, yes, it's a challenge, but Ihave resources to help me and
to help my students.
Allan (21:40):
It's a it's a fantastic time.
I can't wait to welcome so manyof the people listening to this
podcast to come join us,because it's it is a lot of fun
and if, for some reason, thissummer doesn't work out for you,
come back next year.
We'll be holding them and thenalso doing events all around the
country, like the one that youwent to Liz in Arizona, where,
partnering with schools anduniversities and teachers all
(22:01):
over the country to try andbring these resources to as many
educators as we can.
Liz (22:06):
Awesome.
I have one last question foryou, because it's civics and
history.
Who is your favorite historicalfigure?
Somebody you find interesting,whatever that looks like, it's a
hard question.
Allan (22:18):
That's the toughest question you've asked me yet.
This is a weird one bit of anoddball answer, but the first
one that came to me a Greekfigure during the Peloponnesian
War by the name of Alcibiades.
So Alcibiades he's an Athenian,but then he also spends at
various points during thePeloponnesian War as a general
(22:41):
and leader of the Spartans andfor a period of time of the
Persians, as part of theconquest that's happening on
that side.
It's just a fascinatingarchetype of well ancient
questions of virtue and justiceand loyalty.
And what does that mean?
I wouldn't say a good person byany means, but a fascinating
(23:03):
historical figure.
Liz (23:05):
I think.
Sometimes, though, we think we,you know, when we're asked
these questions, we think wehave to pick somebody who, like,
espouses all these you knowvirtues, and what we often
forget is these are humans,right, Even if you were to be
like George Washington, it'slike.
Well, george Washington evennoted his flaws, and that's the
beauty of studying history isthese people are perfect.
Allan (23:27):
Absolutely.
Liz (23:30):
Thank you so much.
I am so excited to share thiswith teachers in Arizona, but
also we have listeners fromeverywhere and I will put all of
the links, especially the linkto the Summer Institute, in our
notes and all of your socialcontacts, things like that.
But thank you so much, Allan.
(23:50):
I really appreciate the workyou guys are doing around civil
discourse.
It's so important and it's sohelpful for educators and for
students.
Allan (23:59):
Liz again, thanks so much for having me.
This was a fantasticconversation and really glad I
could be here today.
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