May 6, 2025 • 45 mins
Nancie Lindblom shares how meaningful professional development can transform teachers from classroom managers to content experts to civic education leaders.
• PD needs evolve from classroom management focus in early years to content expertise in later years
• Immersive experiences like visiting historical sites with expert historians create deeper understanding
• The James Madison Fellowship provides fully-funded master's degrees in American history and government
• Content-focused PD helps teachers develop curriculum that spreads beyond their own classroom
• Professional networks formed through PD programs provide ongoing support and opportunities
• Teaching "hard history" with civil dialogue is especially needed in today's polarized environment
• ASU's Center for American Civics offers local opportunities for teacher and student development
• Students are capable of sophisticated historical analysis and civic engagement when properly guided
• Programs like We the People, Project Citizen, and Youth and Government develop students' civic capabilities
Explore professional development opportunities through the James Madison Fellowship, ASU's School of Civic and Economic Thought and Leadership, and other organizations mentioned in the episode.
The Arizona Constitution Project
Check Out Our Free Lessons on Arizona History and Government!
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Interested in a Master's Degree? Check out the School of Civic and Economic Leadership's Master's in Classical Liberal Education and Leadership
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Liz Evans (00:03):
Wow, okay.
So today's episode is for theperson who maybe has stalled a
little bit or is just frustratedand needs like the refresh
right.
Like I feel like we all gothrough parts in our career
where not necessarily we'rebored, but we just kind of hit a
(00:25):
wall.
And so I invited my friendNancie here today, because
meaningful professionaldevelopment supports our growth
as educators, it supports ourgrowth as leaders in civic
education and, Nancie, I feellike you have done more PD and
have a very wide understandingof professional development
(00:50):
available not only in Arizonabut out there.
So before we get started, canyou please just introduce
yourself, tell us what you'repassionate about and, yeah, I'm
so excited to have you on thepodcast.
Nancie Lindblom (01:05):
Thank you so much, liz.
My name again is NancieLindblom.
I have been an educator for 29years, and all in Mesa Public
Schools.
I just left the classroom lastyear, so 27 years of teaching
and now I am the secondarysocial studies content
specialist for Mesa PublicSchools, and what I am most
(01:25):
passionate about is absolutelysocial studies education.
I love history, I lovegovernment those are the two
that American history andgovernment were the two things
that I mostly taught for mycareer and I'm obsessed with it.
I love to learn about it.
I love to vacation and visithistorical spots.
I love to listen to professorsand engage.
(01:46):
I just, I am very, verypassionate about social studies,
education and always figuringout ways in which to enhance the
way we're doing things inclassrooms to connect with our
students that maybe don'tnaturally connect to the content
that we teach.
Liz Evans (02:02):
And you are also an award-winning teacher, which we
will get into as well.
Excuse me, so, when you thinkback in your career earlier,
what kind of professionaldevelopment opportunities were
most helpful?
Let's say in like years, likeone through five, right, when
we're just starting, we'retrying to get used to the
classroom what was the mosthelpful for you?
Nancie Lindblom (02:26):
No, I've thought about this in the past
and in those first couple ofyears, most of the professional
development that I did wasactually through our school,
right?
So the actual school I wasteaching junior high.
At the time we had an amazinginstructional coach.
Her name was Janet Carlson andshe was delightful and I signed
up for like every class that shetaught and would stay after
(02:49):
school so that I would learn,you know, how to manage my
classroom and how tocollaboratively work with
students and how to get seventhand eighth graders right to get
in and out of groups and all ofthose little technical things.
That just really helped mefigure out how to manage a
classroom.
And I actually, years afterwards, when I was teaching high
(03:10):
school, somebody came andobserved my classroom and they
made some comments aboutclassroom management and I said,
yeah, because I used to be ajunior high school teacher and I
learned all of my management onthe battlefield of junior high
school, but mostly because ofJanet Carlson.
In the first couple of yearsthat was what I totally focused
(03:32):
on.
But, like by year four or five,I started really wanting
content, right, I wanted toexpand my understanding of my
content, to know more so that Icould engage my students better,
and so that was around the timethat I started searching for
professional learningexperiences that weren't offered
(03:54):
at my district, because ourdistrict does a great job, a
wonderful job, but they onepiece that they're lacking is
that content, specific right,and so that's when I started
searching for that elsewhere,outside of our district and
outside of our school.
Liz Evans (04:12):
And it's interesting that you say that, because I
feel I mean, I started as ajunior high teacher too and this
is why, too, like so I'm in mydoctoral program and I will
always tell people who read mywriting you can't hurt my
feelings, I taught junior high,but it is.
It is that first, like you getinto a classroom and you're like
(04:34):
I just need, and no matter howgood your college education was,
until you are in it, you don'tknow how to do it.
It is really that pedagogy andhow to kind of make sure that
your class is a place thatlearning can happen.
And then you get to the placewhere you're like okay, I'm kind
of comfortable here, Like theboat's rowing.
(04:55):
Now I want the content, I wantto deepen the things that I'm
teaching.
Yeah, so how has and this iskind of a big question but how
has professional developmentshaped your journey as an
educator, but also as a leaderin civic education?
Because I am somebody who, whenI was in the classroom, looked
(05:19):
to people like you to be likethis is the teacher I want to be
, like you to be like this isthe teacher I want to be and,
for lack of a better word, kindof copied the things that you
were doing, because I'm like Iknow what Nancie is and I know
how she got there and this iskind of a path I want to take.
So can you share what kind ofPD was the most impactful for
(05:40):
your journey?
Nancie Lindblom (05:42):
Yeah, I think that my journey, just as an
overall statement, would be as ateacher, that without all of
this professional learning, Ihonestly don't know what kind of
a teacher I would have been.
It is literally defined me as ateacher, right, every time,
every summer, well, everyNovember-ish right, when all the
(06:05):
applications come out to all ofthese different programs, I'd
get super excited and back inthe day because again, old,
older person here, right Back inthe day we didn't have a
Facebook page, we didn't haveFacebook right, and I had
literally just stumbled acrossone day when I was Google
searching something and found aprogram and then from there,
(06:26):
that one program just launched,right, like, I went to that one
program and teachers in thatprogram were like, oh well, how
many others have you done?
And I was like this is my first.
And they were like there's somany.
And then they would give meideas and everyone that I went
to it was just word of mouthfrom those people.
And now we have this delightful, you know, facebook pages and
newsletters that people send outand all kinds of different
(06:47):
resources to actually tap usinto all these different
programs, but, goodness, thevery one of the very first ones
that I ever went on was a summerthat we spent three weeks in
Poland and the Czech Republicand the very last week we spent
at the United States HolocaustMemorial Museum and it was led
(07:08):
by a woman that's so delightful.
Her name is Vlada Kamid andshe's no longer with us, but she
was a freedom fighter in theWarsaw Ghetto Uprising and every
summer she took 30 teachers toPoland where all of this
happened and we had the mostamazing experiences.
She led us through differentcamps, we went to Auschwitz and
(07:30):
we went to Schindler's Factoryand we went to Warsaw Ghetto.
We just went all over the placeand everywhere we went, we
worked with the educationdepartment there and she brought
in survivors of the Holocaustand she and and other guest
speakers just the most amazingexperience that I literally,
when I came back from that oneum went to my principal and said
(07:54):
, can I teach a class on theHolocaust?
I'd love to actually create aclass on the Holocaust and and
my principal was wonderful andlet me do that.
And then I taught it for thenext seven years and it just
completely transformed myexperience in the classroom
because it allowed me toliterally develop a curriculum
that I was then be able, wasable to share with, with, uh,
with students, but then otherteachers in the district began
(08:18):
teaching it as well.
Right, so that was a wonderfulexperience.
Um, but that kind of just setthe bar real high.
Liz Evans (08:25):
I was going to say that's your first one.
Nancie Lindblom (08:29):
I am.
I'm trying to think back, andmaybe it wasn't the first one,
but it was definitely within thefirst couple of years.
Liz Evans (08:34):
Right, yes.
Nancie Lindblom (08:35):
And then I started just kind of going from
there and I I I got in contactwith a school that was doing
some work.
Now they're known as teachingAmerican history, right, but
back then they weren't calledthat.
And they were, it was out ofAshland university and they'd
had just a classes that theywere offering.
(08:56):
And so I took a class onesummer and it was like it was
like nerdy history camp everyall the history teachers
together, looking at documentsand just having a good time and
then living in the in these, youknow, senior apartments
together and just having just afabulous time.
And from there they did a.
They did a three-week programalso.
That was a week in Philadelphiaand then Gettysburg and then
(09:18):
Washington DC, and everywhere wewent we were looking at we were
looking at history through thelens of the promise of the
Declaration of Independence thatall men are created equal.
And wherever we went we hadthese incredible professors,
like to the point where we werewalking around Gettysburg with a
(09:38):
man, a gentleman, andeverywhere we went people were
like, oh my gosh, is that GaryGallagher?
And I was like, oh, who's GaryGallagher?
But Gary Gallagher was ourprofessor and he was leading us
around Gettysburg.
And then you know, when I cameback and every single
documentary I've ever seen aboutthe Civil War has Gary
Gallagher.
Liz Evans (09:59):
Isn't that amazing.
You're like, I know him.
Nancie Lindblom (10:02):
I spent time with him in Gettysburg.
You're like, I know him.
I spent time with him inGettysburg and, honestly, for
all of the different experiencesthat I've had, that's literally
been the quality of professorsthat we've had in all of them,
where I might not have known whothat historian was before, and
then I see them in documentariesafterwards and they've all been
so fabulous to say you know,hey, just reach out to me and
(10:24):
afterwards, if you have anyquestions or you're looking for
anything, and I have and they'veresponded and offered sources
and offered ideas.
Even one of them was likebefore the pandemic, right
before everything, I used toactually use zoom, before
anybody knew what it was, and wewould.
I would contact, randomly,contact some people and be like,
(10:45):
oh hey, would you like to Zoomwith my kids?
And Carol Birkin, a historianthat I just adore, she Zoomed in
with my kids and it was afabulous experience that they
just because they read her bookand anyhow.
But several of the professorsfrom these different things were
like, yeah, sure, I'll Zoomwith your kids.
And so not only was I actuallyin a historical place learning
(11:07):
about something from amazinghistorians who were incredibly
generous with their time duringand afterwards it literally just
would transform my ideas andI'd learn new history and then
think, oh, this is where I want,this is how I can connect
students, right?
So all of these, these differenthistorical experiences that I
(11:27):
was having, was amazing, and ontop of that they were
introducing me to newpedagogical experiences as well,
right?
So one particular one thatstands out in my mind with
pedagogy was when we were doinga NEH seminar.
It was just, it was a two weekone on slavery and the
constitution and and theybrought in a woman professor her
(11:50):
name was Diana Hess and shewrote this incredible book about
controversy in the classroomand how we really that's our
responsibility as social studiesteachers to really grapple with
that, with our students and letthem understand how to deal
with controversy.
But she introduced me to astructure called a structured
academic controversy, and it wasthe first time I'd ever heard
(12:11):
of it and have used it so manytimes since.
In fact, the next year, thenext summer, I went to a street
law with the Supreme Court andthat was just incredible.
Liz Evans (12:23):
Mind blowing.
Nancie Lindblom (12:24):
I mean we got to meet the chief justice of the
Supreme Court in the SupremeCourt and it was just delightful
and we got to sit in on thissession in the Supreme Court.
But they also they called themdeliberations, not structured
academic controversy.
But it's the same thing, right,and they reiterated that.
But those types of pedagogicalstrategies that are things I use
(12:49):
all the time in a classroom andI encourage for other people to
, because it really allows thestudents to interact in a way
that is both positive andanalytical and allows them to
learn more about what we'retalking about instead of just
you know here's facts, right.
So that is.
(13:10):
I don't.
I think I've just droned on areally long time I'm like our
listeners can't see me, but thewhole time I'm like uh-huh,
uh-huh, uh-huh, and this andthis and this and so, experience
after experience and thenultimately in leadership which I
think is what you also asked,in civics leadership, I would
come in contact withorganizations and I think to
(13:32):
myself, oh, I should be a partof that, right.
And so through my experiences,I was able to, you know, join my
professional organizations theNational Council for Social
Studies, the Arizona Council forSocial Studies, the National
Council for Social Studies, theArizona Council for Social
Studies.
I'm currently on the board ofthe Arizona Council for History
Education.
All because of these types ofexperiences and pulling them
(13:53):
together and just thinking tomyself if I had these great,
wonderful experiences, how can Ithen make sure that other
teachers have those experiencesas well?
So kind of led into thoseleadership positions in that way
.
Liz Evans (14:04):
I so when you brought up Ashlyn, I almost said and
Grandpa's Cheese Barn, becausewhen you go to Ashland Ohio you
have to go to Grandpa's CheeseBarn.
I took one class and it was so.
It was just yes, you're withother teachers who are just like
so excited and and so lovely.
(14:27):
I think that is my favoritething.
Also, the like.
I went to one with the Bill ofRights Institute, with Gordon
Wood, and he was so cool and helegitimately meant hey, if you
have questions, send me an email.
And the more I work withscholars and faculty, the more
I'm like no, this is actuallywho they are.
(14:48):
They want to help, they want totalk to kids Like this is what
they like doing.
So if people and they loveteachers, they genuinely love
teachers, and it is so fun to goto these, to be treated like
the royalty that teachers are,because all of these places
(15:10):
treat you so well, and then tohave these experiences.
I did not get to meet the chiefjustice, but I did get to meet
justice Kagan, who used my firstname and I almost passed out in
the supreme court because it it, it is.
You realize they're just normalpeople who are just as in awe
of you as you are of them, andthat is such a it's such a cool
(15:34):
feeling.
I feel like PD is always whatlike wound me back up.
Nancie Lindblom (15:41):
Yes, absolutely , it's that.
Uh, rejuvenation that, thatthat just connects you back to
all the reasons why you love,you love what you do, right, and
it gets you ramped up for thenext year, right.
Liz Evans (15:53):
Absolutely, and it is because I went to a bunch in
2016, 2016 was the like, or Iwas like, well, I'm just going
to apply and see what happens.
And I got five.
It was like did you do all ofthem?
I did, I did.
I had a very supportiveadministrator who because so for
(16:17):
people who are maybe outside ofArizona, school starts early
here, so we usually start likethe middle of July and a lot of
these PDs are like my first weekof school or in August.
But I had an administrator whowas like you want to go to
Stanford law school the firstweek of school?
Okay, bye, your kids are goingto benefit more from you going
to that than you being at thefirst week of school.
I also went to Montpelier thatyear.
Nancie Lindblom (16:43):
I love that, and it was it was amazing, and
it was.
Liz Evans (16:47):
I think, after that year of it was 2016, that year
of teaching for me was probablyone of the best years, because I
was so.
I'd gone to street law, I hadgone to teaching American
history, I'd gone to a Bill ofRights Institute, I'd done all
of these things and I came backand I was like, let's go, like
I'm so stoked for this, um, so,one of the oh, sorry, I was
(17:11):
going to say I think that that'sso, the ones that you just
mentioned.
Nancie Lindblom (17:14):
Right, there's um, so many museums and
organizations that have allkinds of resources, for teachers
are offering these over thesummer, and, and I always find
that whenever I do somethingdirectly where I'm engaged in
the resources, I'm more likelyto use them in the future.
(17:34):
Yes, so knowing that theNational Constitution Center has
resources is one thing, butthen sitting in the National
Constitution Center where you'vejust heard from Akilah Marr,
who became one of my favorite ofall time standing in the room
chatting with you and tellingyou all kinds of things about
the constitution, and then theypull out and here's some of the
(17:56):
ways in which we teach it, andthen I'm looking at it there and
I'm thinking, oh yeah, I willdefinitely use this, and I do
Right, because I'm there and I'mengaged in the work, and I
think that you are more likely,whenever we have those
experiences, to actually use thematerials Right.
And so that's another reason whyI always encourage teachers
anywhere and we're not eventalking about these big ones
(18:18):
like the National ConstitutionCenter that we have to travel
for and get these lovelystipends for that they pay for
it and we don't have to, youknow, pay out of our pocket.
But we have those experienceshere.
I mean, asu has some wonderfulones that I've attended and
teachers have attended thatdon't cost me anything and I
actually get a little stipendright.
So anytime that I have theopportunity to engage and then
(18:39):
they can show me where thoseresources are found and what
they have to offer, I think itis a fabulous opportunity as a
teacher to just say yes andattend.
Liz Evans (18:49):
So, before we get to ASUs, I do want to also say so,
Nancie, you are a James Madisonfellow 2011?
.
Nancie Lindblom (18:59):
So I went in 2011, but I think I was awarded
in 2010.
Okay, I went to Washington DC,which is a part of that.
Liz Evans (19:06):
the year following, yeah so can you tell so for
people who do not know what theJames Madison fellowship is?
So I know lots of James Madisonfellows.
I happen to be married to one.
What?
What is the James Madisonfellowship and why should every
teacher in Arizona apply forthis award?
Nancie Lindblom (19:45):
that was that dealt with.
Well, that gave me anopportunity to use what I was
learning through the entireprogram on a day-to-day basis in
my classroom.
And I found that with AshlandUniversity in their MAG program,
which is the at the time it wasreally the only one that
existed, right?
And since I believe ASU has aprogram as well that's very
similar to it, but at the timethere wasn't another one.
But I was figuring out how inthe world am I going to pay to
(20:08):
go to Ohio every summer to takethese classes and to do this?
And I was like ready to takeout a loan.
But I started searching theinternet for is just any
scholarship exist, right?
The one I found was the Madison, right, so the Madison is a
fully funded master's program,right?
(20:29):
So basically, you get, I think,up to $24,000 for the master's
degree, as long as it's inAmerican history and government,
because it's a James Madisonfellow.
And in addition to the factthat you are paid for your
master's degree, they also payfor you to come to Washington DC
for four weeks and to study atGeorgetown University, right,
(20:53):
and with amazing professors, andthey take you around and you
have amazing experiences there.
That's where I actually got tomeet Ruth Bader Ginsburg, which
was, I mean, that one was like amind blow, but that was
incredible and we, in that wealso did a.
I'm pretty sure it was withMadison that we did a moot court
(21:14):
in the United States Court ofAppeals where the Chief Justice
of the Court of Appeals and hisclerks ran the moot court.
Liz Evans (21:23):
That's amazing.
Nancie Lindblom (21:26):
And then gave us insights into different
things.
It was.
It was fabulous, but that wholeexperience then.
So you have that four weekswhere one person from every
state is chosen every year as aMadison fellow and then you get
to bond in those four, fourweeks like and and a lot of
those teachers that I wasactually going to was that were
(21:49):
there.
With Madison, we're also doingthe same master's program that I
was, so we would.
We actually went from Madison tothe summers at in Ohio together
and I made fabulous friendsacross the United States that
were just as excited about associal studies as I was and
about history and government,and still keep in contact with
(22:12):
many of them.
Right, but the experience isjust.
It is one of the single mostgreatest experiences that I've
had, and through these differentprograms, was definitely the
Madison Fellowship, which gaveme the opportunity to get a
master's degree at a universitythat was designed literally for
teachers.
Right, their program entirelywas designed for teachers, which
(22:36):
then, of course, just grew myworld, being able to actually
have a master's in my contentarea, not just a curriculum
master's, which is a goodmaster's but the master's I have
.
It's a great, but it's not butthis master's like also affords
me the ability to be able toteach at a junior college and to
teach dual enrollment and toteach because I have a master's
(22:58):
in content area as well, and italso just gave me so many
primary sources and the otherresources for me to be used with
my students.
It just changed everythingRight, but that everybody that I
can try to convince I actuallysay go for the Madison.
In fact, to the last twoMadisons that have been chosen
(23:21):
from Arizona, I wrote letters ofrecommendation for Yay.
So I'm always trying toconvince people because it was
just they're a delightfulorganization and everywhere you
go in the civics world you'llfind other Madison fellows right
, and it's a network unlike anyother.
(23:44):
I was at the we the Peoplenational competition with my
team and we made it into the top10.
And after they make the top 10announcement, they have all the
top 10 judges all come into.
I mean teachers all come into aroom so that they can talk
about the logistics for the nextday and we're all chatting and
(24:04):
I realized that like six out ofthe 10 of us were all Madison
fellows and I was like, yeah,this seems about right, that
checks out, we share the samepassion, apparently.
Liz Evans (24:18):
Well, and that you know again, I went through it
secondarily with my husband.
I did apply a couple of timesand did not make it.
It is a thing that people don'tget it on their first try.
Nancie Lindblom (24:31):
Those are two people that I just talked about.
Both did not get it on theirfirst try, but got it on their
second try.
So I always encourage people todo more than once for sure.
Yes, because it is more normalto not receive it on your first
try than it is to get it on yourfirst try, right.
And and honestly, um.
With that in mind, I always, ifsomebody says to me I'm not
(24:54):
sure if I'm ready, I'm likeapply now, whether you're ready.
Or if you feel like you'reready to apply now and if you
get it you will be ready, Right,but if you don't, then they'll
give you another go around andyou'll be ready when you get it.
But absolutely apply and applyagain if you don't get it.
Liz Evans (25:22):
School of Civic and Economic Thought and Leadership
does have a master's degree thatthe Madison Fellowship has said
yes, this covers it.
They get to go up to Flagstaffin the summer.
It is an amazing program, andso, if you're interested in that
, in our show notes it is at thebottom.
You also, though, were the 2013Arizona Teacher of the Year,
and I want to bring that upbecause I was in 2014 class in
(25:45):
the top 10.
And one of the reasons that Iwas like I want to go for this
is because you won in 2013.
And we did not know each otherthen.
Nancie Lindblom (25:55):
Oh, I remember.
Liz Evans (25:57):
I remember, you know, my principal was like I think
you should apply for this.
And I'm like I don't know.
And I did a little bit ofresearch and that's when I kind
of found you and was like thisis the teacher I want to be.
Then I, you know what, I'mgoing to try it because I think
a lot of times too, especiallyin these like state or national
things, we we don't see socialstudies teachers a lot.
(26:20):
Right, and there are mathteachers that are amazing in
english.
There are so many amazingteachers, but I feel like the
we're just not represented asmuch.
So to see you in the yearbefore I I mean for me it opened
my eyes.
I don't think I've ever toldyou this and it was.
Nancie Lindblom (26:38):
It was like to me it was a big, it was a big
deal, and I think that it was.
Liz Evans (26:41):
it was like to me it was a big, it was a big deal and
I think that it was.
You know, keep applying, keeptrying for these things because,
like AEF, again I was in thetop 10.
I did not make it to the topfive.
Beth Mahoney was teacher of theyear 2014.
Shout out to Beth, my homie,2014.
(27:05):
Shout out to Beth, my homie.
But again it created thesebigger networks of people who
were cheering for you, who wantyou to go on and do things, who
will write letters ofrecommendation for you and kind
of, do you know all of thesereally cool things?
And so don't, yes I.
The whole point of that is donot get discouraged if you get a
no the first time.
Nancie Lindblom (27:25):
Yeah, and I always tell people with anything
, if it's a no the first time,try again.
And then there's always theseteachers that I will come in
contact with that say, oh, Iwould never get that, I'm not
even going to try.
And I think, well, of courseyou're not going to get it if
you don't try.
I mean, I've applied for thingsthat I have not gotten into and
(27:46):
I think to myself, oh darn it,but it hasn't stopped me from
saying, next time, right, goingfor something else.
Because every single time, withwhatever experience that has
been, it has shaped me as ateacher.
It has helped my students.
It has been what has made methe teacher that I am, and I've
never been on a single one ofthese experiences where I
(28:08):
regretted being a part of it,that I didn't take away
something that changed me or theway that I teach.
Liz Evans (28:14):
Yes, amazing.
So can we get to some more ASUspecific ones, because you have
been I want to call friend ofthe center um for a while,
mostly because we run in thesame circles.
You know, we're both on theboard of directors of the
Arizona Council for HistoryEducation which, if you are
listening to this now, monica,the president, has been.
(28:35):
On a past uh podcast episode.
She talked about the conferencewhich I'm so excited about.
What initially drew you to PDthrough ASU's Center for
American Civics.
Nancie Lindblom (28:52):
So I will say that I mean I think I've kind of
said this through the entiretime that I just love
professional learning when itcomes to social studies, if it's
related to it.
I want to be a part of that,and we don't actually have a lot
of it in Arizona, right?
So we have some.
Like I, before ASU started thisprogram, I had done a few
(29:16):
things with NAU through.
Is it the Springer Institute?
I think maybe it's the's wherethey do their Holocaust studies,
but but I so the minute thatthere was an opportunity through
ASU, I was like, yes, please,so.
(29:37):
and then I went to one and, ofcourse, it was just the types of
learning that I like to dowhere it's document based, where
it's talking to an expert,where it's taking a little look
at how can I implement this inmy classroom as well.
It's the perfect mix of the waythat I like these types of
experiences to go right.
I want it to be content heavyand then give me a few ideas on
(29:59):
how I can actually put this intomy classroom.
Right, and that's exactly theexperience that I've had with
ASU and to the extent that we'vebrought them over to our
district a couple of times,right, Because I'm like I would
like to share this experiencewith other teachers, and so
we've brought them in and we'vealways had a positive experience
.
But, but ultimately, theinitial draw was oh my gosh,
(30:21):
it's right here.
It's here in Arizona right, Idon't have to go anyplace, it's
right here and it's local.
And then once I attended, I waslike and it's good right.
Liz Evans (30:30):
So it's local and it's good.
Nancie Lindblom (30:32):
So we will continue to participate, for
sure.
Liz Evans (30:36):
My colleague, jeff, does a lot of those teacher
workshops.
Working with our faculty is sofun, it's such a cool job to
like now.
I mean, I work with faculty sothere are times where I'll just
walk down the hall because Ihave a question and it's like,
well, whoever's door is open.
Times where I'll just walk downthe hall because I have a
question and it's like, well,whoever's door is open and it's
always the right door.
I loved it.
You were also one of ourteacher mentors for our Civic
(30:59):
Leadership Institute and overthe past five years of the Civic
Leadership Institute that I'veoverseen, we've kind of gone
through different iterations ofit because of funding or
whatever else.
But can you kind of talk aboutyour experience with Civic
Leadership Institute, because Ithink that sometimes we talk
about it but until you're therewith the kids, with the faculty,
(31:21):
it's hard to explain.
Nancie Lindblom (31:25):
Yeah, it was great.
We had a fabulous time.
It again was a nice blend ofthings that I enjoy, like
hanging out with kids andtalking to them about important
ideas, listening to experts, um,having those important
conversations and then also, um,looking at it in a pedagogical
way in which they actually hadto do something.
Like the Institute that I was apart of, they did like a a
(31:49):
little mock moot court, so tospeak, right at the end of it
and the kids were so excitedabout it, they were so into it
and we got to kind of advisethem through the process.
But what a fabulous experienceto actually see students digging
into really kind of toughtopics in a way that was a, was
(32:09):
a, was a deep and analytical wayand blended really well
together.
Right, so they would havemoments where they were
listening to lectures, wherethere would be some give and
take from the professors, butthen they had all these sessions
where they would sit down withprofessors and also mentors and
really dig into and haveconversations about it and then
(32:30):
be able to ultimately kind ofassess how they were through
that moot chord at the end.
So it was a wonderful balanceand blend of looking at
different ways in which toengage students, but ours was on
the freedom.
Well, it was the FirstAmendment right and the insights
(32:51):
from students were fabulous andthe conversations were
incredible.
So it was just a wonderfulexperience and would absolutely
recommend this to students.
In fact, the next year, one ofmy colleagues, I was like I know
your daughter just loves thiskind of stuff.
You've got to get her to go,and she did, and she had an
incredible time.
(33:11):
We got a few students from ourfrom our school district to go
as well.
Besides her.
She was also from our schooldistrict and they all just had
an incredible experience.
So I would 100% recommend forstudents to be able to
participate in this.
Liz Evans (33:28):
And it gives them a little taste of college, I think
, like in a manageable way.
Right, like this is, I think,sometimes for students, college
is this like anomaly of, like oh, when I get to college, it's
going to be this, this and this,and it's like your professors
are people and they want to helpyou learn.
Like it's it's something that'sand you don't have to come in
(33:49):
knowing everything, and that'salways the question I get Well,
I don't really know a whole lot.
It's like, okay, I didn't knowa whole lot until I put this
reader together and I actuallylike I learned a lot by
listening to the kids.
Like there are times where I'mlike, oh my gosh, I never
thought of that.
Or last year they did cabinetbattles because it was on
(34:09):
Lincoln and Frederick Douglassand like the ideals of the
Declaration of Independence andit was so interesting because
they said things that I'm like Inever again I've been doing
this for two decades neverthought of that.
And I love learning fromstudents and I wish that more
people understood like thereason that we teach and work
(34:30):
with kids is because we learn somuch from them too.
Nancie Lindblom (34:34):
And we were like we don't know these
students, like it was only aweek long and yet during that
time, building thoserelationships with them, and I
will say that one of the myfavorite things was just
watching them as they interactedwith the professors.
They're used to talking to highschool teachers, they're used
to talking to us, right, but tosee them engaging with a
professor in an intellectual way, right when they were posing
(35:00):
questions and saying what theythought about different
documents and really engaging inthat conversation, I just loved
watching that and being a partof that.
Liz Evans (35:10):
And one of the things I love about our professors is
they really engage in kind ofthat Socratic dialogue.
So they're not the sage on thestage and they know a lot, right
Like, they'll give you thebackground, they'll do all this,
but kids will ask questions,and the way they respond and
engage a kid in a conversation Ithink also is such a cool thing
to watch because, you see, youknow, at first they're like
(35:32):
afraid to to ask questions orfree to engage.
By the end of the first day,hands are up, kids want to talk
because they have this time withthe professor, but then they
also have a time with a teachermentor who is going to be like
here's, like let's make sure weall get it, because that
pedagogical piece still needs toexist.
So we have the content from ourfaculty and the pedagogy and
(35:54):
and yes, and I'm I'm so gladthat you've been able to be a
teacher mentor also, you know, aparticipant in our workshops,
and I'm glad that we've beenable to come to your school
district because literallythat's why we exist.
We want to.
You know, I didn't have thatmuch like you, I had to go
outside, go to different placesto get my PD, and I feel
(36:15):
confident that I can speak forJeff too, like Jeff, and I just
love helping teachers.
At the end of the day, that'sliterally our job, and what a
cool job to have.
Plus, we get to work with coolscholars, so it's fun, I think.
My last question, then, for you, Nancie, because you are an
expert in this field whatprofessional development
(36:36):
experiences do you think aremost needed right now for
educators?
Because we're in again I hatesaying like we're in an
unprecedented time, because Iwant to throw that word out the
window, but I don't know howelse to say it.
It feels heavy, it feels hard.
What kind of PD experiences doyou think, because you work with
teachers?
What do you think that theywould benefit most from?
Nancie Lindblom (36:59):
I think that right now, anything that is
teaching you how to teach hardhistory with students, right,
and to do it in a civil dialogue, I think those are the most
important.
We're living in definitelyunprecedented times in the
classroom, for sure, right, andin a world that's very polarized
(37:22):
and we, by nature of what weteach, teach a lot of
controversial things.
So you know, you go back tothat idea that I mentioned
before with Diana Hess and herbook.
Like she talks entirely in thatbook about, it is our
responsibility as social studiesteachers, right, to be able to
(37:44):
lead our students through thesetough conversations in a way
that is civil.
But digging deeper into whatthat actually means, right, not
just, um, not saying to peoplelike civil is that we act nice
to each other?
Right, but digging into theidea of the a civil dialogue in,
in, in engages active listening, um, it engages me using
(38:09):
evidence when I am from crediblesources, when I'm giving
arguments with people and andactually is it an argument as
much as this is how I see it,and here's what the evidence
that I have that backs that upand then being able to actually
listen to somebody else do thesame thing, right.
So when I look at what I thinkis the number.
(38:30):
That's a hard thing to actuallymanage in a classroom.
That's not necessarilysomething that just comes to
teachers, and so any type oftraining, any type of
professional learning, that isgoing to gauge you through that
process, which is absolutelywhat I think teachers need the
most of right now.
And I'll say that we've always,in social studies, kind of
(38:51):
thought in that way in how wemake sure that we can train
teachers to be able to do thatin the classroom.
But we're seeing it more andmore and more because of the
times that we're living in rightnow, and so I see this
incorporated in just abouteverything that I participate in
.
Right Is there, they have thoseelements of it in right is there
(39:12):
, they have those elements of it.
Just recently there was here inArizona from the Korematsu
Institute.
They had a day and that was apart of the conversation, right,
like how do we teach this hardhistory?
(39:36):
And making sure that we don'tignore the history, right, but
that we teach it in a way thatis going to engage our students
and and allow them to have acivil conversation about what is
happening in history and whatlessons we can learn from that.
So that would be my.
My recommendation is findanything and everything that you
can that has to do with thattopic, because I don't want
teachers to shy away fromhistory and government.
(39:58):
I want them to teach realhistory and teach real
government.
So we need to find ways to makesure that we're still doing
that right, that we're notafraid to be out in the
classroom.
Liz Evans (40:10):
And if you're a member of the community
listening to this and you'relike, oh, I don't, kids can't do
that, that you need tovolunteer to judge for we, the
people because, and I, you know,I, I used to have my eighth
graders do congressionalhearings and they can.
They can, I will say becauseI've, you know, I've.
(40:30):
I've been to mountain viewwhat's on mountain view.
I've been to corona del solwhat's up Mountain View.
I've been to Corona Del Sol,who made top 10 in national this
year who is also that is my.
That's my high school.
It is genuinely probably themost refreshing thing to sit
there and and listen to thesestudents and listen to the
(40:51):
things that they're saying,because I always leave in my
head thinking kids are all right, like right.
You and I were were there, wewere helping with Corona and it
was like the kids are all right.
These kids are so awesome andthey can have these
conversations.
They sometimes just needguidance from adults who can say
have you considered this, haveyou thought about this?
(41:13):
And you know?
Huge shout out to the we thePeople teachers, because that is
a social studies is a hard job.
Preparing those kids for acompetition is a really hard job
.
So I do want to give a shoutout to the we the People
teachers because wow.
Nancie Lindblom (41:29):
There's also so many other programs out there
that I became more familiar withbecause of doing teacher right.
There's an awesome one withyouth and government that that
takes students to the Capitoland they run through what it is
to pass a bill and everythingright there.
And there is Project Citizenand History Day and all of these
(41:51):
things that literally aretaking our students exactly the
way we want them to be taughtright and and they're able to do
such amazing things.
I remember I, I um judged forum history day one year and I
did the elementary school leveland it was like some fourth
graders and fifth graders theywere just young and they were.
(42:12):
They blew my mind.
It was like oh my gosh, whatthey were able to accomplish and
know and then articulate.
And it was.
It was phenomenal to actuallysee that.
So absolutely Like when we canengage our students in this way,
it's, and they can do it right.
Liz Evans (42:30):
Yes, they absolutely can.
They just need they need adultsto believe in them and to care
about them and to volunteer forthese things.
I actually I'm doing theProject Citizen and I'm excited
because it's just, it genuinelyfills me up to do things like
this.
So, Nancie, you are a treasurefor the state of Arizona.
(42:54):
I am so lucky to call you afriend.
Thank you for your time today.
I just I adore you and I am sohappy that.
Nancie Lindblom (43:04):
I got to sit and talk to you For sure, and
thank you for inviting me.
Wow, okay.
So today's episode is for theperson who maybe has stalled a
little bit or is just frustratedand needs like the refresh
right.
Like I feel like we all gothrough parts in our career
where not necessarily we'rebored, but we just kind of hit a
(00:25):
wall.
And so I invited my friendNancie here today, because
meaningful professionaldevelopment supports our growth
as educators, it supports ourgrowth as leaders in civic
education and, Nancie, I feellike you have done more PD and
have a very wide understandingof professional development
(00:50):
available not only in Arizonabut out there.
So before we get started, canyou please just introduce
yourself, tell us what you'repassionate about and, yeah, I'm
so excited to have you on thepodcast.
Nancie Lindblom (01:05):
Thank you so much, liz.
My name again is NancieLindblom.
I have been an educator for 29years, and all in Mesa Public
Schools.
I just left the classroom lastyear, so 27 years of teaching
and now I am the secondarysocial studies content
specialist for Mesa PublicSchools, and what I am most
(01:25):
passionate about is absolutelysocial studies education.
I love history, I lovegovernment those are the two
that American history andgovernment were the two things
that I mostly taught for mycareer and I'm obsessed with it.
I love to learn about it.
I love to vacation and visithistorical spots.
I love to listen to professorsand engage.
(01:46):
I just, I am very, verypassionate about social studies,
education and always figuringout ways in which to enhance the
way we're doing things inclassrooms to connect with our
students that maybe don'tnaturally connect to the content
that we teach.
Liz Evans (02:02):
And you are also an award-winning teacher, which we
will get into as well.
Excuse me, so, when you thinkback in your career earlier,
what kind of professionaldevelopment opportunities were
most helpful?
Let's say in like years, likeone through five, right, when
we're just starting, we'retrying to get used to the
classroom what was the mosthelpful for you?
Nancie Lindblom (02:26):
No, I've thought about this in the past
and in those first couple ofyears, most of the professional
development that I did wasactually through our school,
right?
So the actual school I wasteaching junior high.
At the time we had an amazinginstructional coach.
Her name was Janet Carlson andshe was delightful and I signed
up for like every class that shetaught and would stay after
(02:49):
school so that I would learn,you know, how to manage my
classroom and how tocollaboratively work with
students and how to get seventhand eighth graders right to get
in and out of groups and all ofthose little technical things.
That just really helped mefigure out how to manage a
classroom.
And I actually, years afterwards, when I was teaching high
(03:10):
school, somebody came andobserved my classroom and they
made some comments aboutclassroom management and I said,
yeah, because I used to be ajunior high school teacher and I
learned all of my management onthe battlefield of junior high
school, but mostly because ofJanet Carlson.
In the first couple of yearsthat was what I totally focused
(03:32):
on.
But, like by year four or five,I started really wanting
content, right, I wanted toexpand my understanding of my
content, to know more so that Icould engage my students better,
and so that was around the timethat I started searching for
professional learningexperiences that weren't offered
(03:54):
at my district, because ourdistrict does a great job, a
wonderful job, but they onepiece that they're lacking is
that content, specific right,and so that's when I started
searching for that elsewhere,outside of our district and
outside of our school.
Liz Evans (04:12):
And it's interesting that you say that, because I
feel I mean, I started as ajunior high teacher too and this
is why, too, like so I'm in mydoctoral program and I will
always tell people who read mywriting you can't hurt my
feelings, I taught junior high,but it is.
It is that first, like you getinto a classroom and you're like
(04:34):
I just need, and no matter howgood your college education was,
until you are in it, you don'tknow how to do it.
It is really that pedagogy andhow to kind of make sure that
your class is a place thatlearning can happen.
And then you get to the placewhere you're like okay, I'm kind
of comfortable here, Like theboat's rowing.
(04:55):
Now I want the content, I wantto deepen the things that I'm
teaching.
Yeah, so how has and this iskind of a big question but how
has professional developmentshaped your journey as an
educator, but also as a leaderin civic education?
Because I am somebody who, whenI was in the classroom, looked
(05:19):
to people like you to be likethis is the teacher I want to be
, like you to be like this isthe teacher I want to be and,
for lack of a better word, kindof copied the things that you
were doing, because I'm like Iknow what Nancie is and I know
how she got there and this iskind of a path I want to take.
So can you share what kind ofPD was the most impactful for
(05:40):
your journey?
Nancie Lindblom (05:42):
Yeah, I think that my journey, just as an
overall statement, would be as ateacher, that without all of
this professional learning, Ihonestly don't know what kind of
a teacher I would have been.
It is literally defined me as ateacher, right, every time,
every summer, well, everyNovember-ish right, when all the
(06:05):
applications come out to all ofthese different programs, I'd
get super excited and back inthe day because again, old,
older person here, right Back inthe day we didn't have a
Facebook page, we didn't haveFacebook right, and I had
literally just stumbled acrossone day when I was Google
searching something and found aprogram and then from there,
(06:26):
that one program just launched,right, like, I went to that one
program and teachers in thatprogram were like, oh well, how
many others have you done?
And I was like this is my first.
And they were like there's somany.
And then they would give meideas and everyone that I went
to it was just word of mouthfrom those people.
And now we have this delightful, you know, facebook pages and
newsletters that people send outand all kinds of different
(06:47):
resources to actually tap usinto all these different
programs, but, goodness, thevery one of the very first ones
that I ever went on was a summerthat we spent three weeks in
Poland and the Czech Republicand the very last week we spent
at the United States HolocaustMemorial Museum and it was led
(07:08):
by a woman that's so delightful.
Her name is Vlada Kamid andshe's no longer with us, but she
was a freedom fighter in theWarsaw Ghetto Uprising and every
summer she took 30 teachers toPoland where all of this
happened and we had the mostamazing experiences.
She led us through differentcamps, we went to Auschwitz and
(07:30):
we went to Schindler's Factoryand we went to Warsaw Ghetto.
We just went all over the placeand everywhere we went, we
worked with the educationdepartment there and she brought
in survivors of the Holocaustand she and and other guest
speakers just the most amazingexperience that I literally,
when I came back from that oneum went to my principal and said
(07:54):
, can I teach a class on theHolocaust?
I'd love to actually create aclass on the Holocaust and and
my principal was wonderful andlet me do that.
And then I taught it for thenext seven years and it just
completely transformed myexperience in the classroom
because it allowed me toliterally develop a curriculum
that I was then be able, wasable to share with, with, uh,
with students, but then otherteachers in the district began
(08:18):
teaching it as well.
Right, so that was a wonderfulexperience.
Um, but that kind of just setthe bar real high.
Liz Evans (08:25):
I was going to say that's your first one.
Nancie Lindblom (08:29):
I am.
I'm trying to think back, andmaybe it wasn't the first one,
but it was definitely within thefirst couple of years.
Liz Evans (08:34):
Right, yes.
Nancie Lindblom (08:35):
And then I started just kind of going from
there and I I I got in contactwith a school that was doing
some work.
Now they're known as teachingAmerican history, right, but
back then they weren't calledthat.
And they were, it was out ofAshland university and they'd
had just a classes that theywere offering.
(08:56):
And so I took a class onesummer and it was like it was
like nerdy history camp everyall the history teachers
together, looking at documentsand just having a good time and
then living in the in these, youknow, senior apartments
together and just having just afabulous time.
And from there they did a.
They did a three-week programalso.
That was a week in Philadelphiaand then Gettysburg and then
(09:18):
Washington DC, and everywhere wewent we were looking at we were
looking at history through thelens of the promise of the
Declaration of Independence thatall men are created equal.
And wherever we went we hadthese incredible professors,
like to the point where we werewalking around Gettysburg with a
(09:38):
man, a gentleman, andeverywhere we went people were
like, oh my gosh, is that GaryGallagher?
And I was like, oh, who's GaryGallagher?
But Gary Gallagher was ourprofessor and he was leading us
around Gettysburg.
And then you know, when I cameback and every single
documentary I've ever seen aboutthe Civil War has Gary
Gallagher.
Liz Evans (09:59):
Isn't that amazing.
You're like, I know him.
Nancie Lindblom (10:02):
I spent time with him in Gettysburg.
You're like, I know him.
I spent time with him inGettysburg and, honestly, for
all of the different experiencesthat I've had, that's literally
been the quality of professorsthat we've had in all of them,
where I might not have known whothat historian was before, and
then I see them in documentariesafterwards and they've all been
so fabulous to say you know,hey, just reach out to me and
(10:24):
afterwards, if you have anyquestions or you're looking for
anything, and I have and they'veresponded and offered sources
and offered ideas.
Even one of them was likebefore the pandemic, right
before everything, I used toactually use zoom, before
anybody knew what it was, and wewould.
I would contact, randomly,contact some people and be like,
(10:45):
oh hey, would you like to Zoomwith my kids?
And Carol Birkin, a historianthat I just adore, she Zoomed in
with my kids and it was afabulous experience that they
just because they read her bookand anyhow.
But several of the professorsfrom these different things were
like, yeah, sure, I'll Zoomwith your kids.
And so not only was I actuallyin a historical place learning
(11:07):
about something from amazinghistorians who were incredibly
generous with their time duringand afterwards it literally just
would transform my ideas andI'd learn new history and then
think, oh, this is where I want,this is how I can connect
students, right?
So all of these, these differenthistorical experiences that I
(11:27):
was having, was amazing, and ontop of that they were
introducing me to newpedagogical experiences as well,
right?
So one particular one thatstands out in my mind with
pedagogy was when we were doinga NEH seminar.
It was just, it was a two weekone on slavery and the
constitution and and theybrought in a woman professor her
(11:50):
name was Diana Hess and shewrote this incredible book about
controversy in the classroomand how we really that's our
responsibility as social studiesteachers to really grapple with
that, with our students and letthem understand how to deal
with controversy.
But she introduced me to astructure called a structured
academic controversy, and it wasthe first time I'd ever heard
(12:11):
of it and have used it so manytimes since.
In fact, the next year, thenext summer, I went to a street
law with the Supreme Court andthat was just incredible.
Liz Evans (12:23):
Mind blowing.
Nancie Lindblom (12:24):
I mean we got to meet the chief justice of the
Supreme Court in the SupremeCourt and it was just delightful
and we got to sit in on thissession in the Supreme Court.
But they also they called themdeliberations, not structured
academic controversy.
But it's the same thing, right,and they reiterated that.
But those types of pedagogicalstrategies that are things I use
(12:49):
all the time in a classroom andI encourage for other people to
, because it really allows thestudents to interact in a way
that is both positive andanalytical and allows them to
learn more about what we'retalking about instead of just
you know here's facts, right.
So that is.
(13:10):
I don't.
I think I've just droned on areally long time I'm like our
listeners can't see me, but thewhole time I'm like uh-huh,
uh-huh, uh-huh, and this andthis and this and so, experience
after experience and thenultimately in leadership which I
think is what you also asked,in civics leadership, I would
come in contact withorganizations and I think to
(13:32):
myself, oh, I should be a partof that, right.
And so through my experiences,I was able to, you know, join my
professional organizations theNational Council for Social
Studies, the Arizona Council forSocial Studies, the National
Council for Social Studies, theArizona Council for Social
Studies.
I'm currently on the board ofthe Arizona Council for History
Education.
All because of these types ofexperiences and pulling them
(13:53):
together and just thinking tomyself if I had these great,
wonderful experiences, how can Ithen make sure that other
teachers have those experiencesas well?
So kind of led into thoseleadership positions in that way
.
Liz Evans (14:04):
I so when you brought up Ashlyn, I almost said and
Grandpa's Cheese Barn, becausewhen you go to Ashland Ohio you
have to go to Grandpa's CheeseBarn.
I took one class and it was so.
It was just yes, you're withother teachers who are just like
so excited and and so lovely.
(14:27):
I think that is my favoritething.
Also, the like.
I went to one with the Bill ofRights Institute, with Gordon
Wood, and he was so cool and helegitimately meant hey, if you
have questions, send me an email.
And the more I work withscholars and faculty, the more
I'm like no, this is actuallywho they are.
(14:48):
They want to help, they want totalk to kids Like this is what
they like doing.
So if people and they loveteachers, they genuinely love
teachers, and it is so fun to goto these, to be treated like
the royalty that teachers are,because all of these places
(15:10):
treat you so well, and then tohave these experiences.
I did not get to meet the chiefjustice, but I did get to meet
justice Kagan, who used my firstname and I almost passed out in
the supreme court because it it, it is.
You realize they're just normalpeople who are just as in awe
of you as you are of them, andthat is such a it's such a cool
(15:34):
feeling.
I feel like PD is always whatlike wound me back up.
Nancie Lindblom (15:41):
Yes, absolutely , it's that.
Uh, rejuvenation that, thatthat just connects you back to
all the reasons why you love,you love what you do, right, and
it gets you ramped up for thenext year, right.
Liz Evans (15:53):
Absolutely, and it is because I went to a bunch in
2016, 2016 was the like, or Iwas like, well, I'm just going
to apply and see what happens.
And I got five.
It was like did you do all ofthem?
I did, I did.
I had a very supportiveadministrator who because so for
(16:17):
people who are maybe outside ofArizona, school starts early
here, so we usually start likethe middle of July and a lot of
these PDs are like my first weekof school or in August.
But I had an administrator whowas like you want to go to
Stanford law school the firstweek of school?
Okay, bye, your kids are goingto benefit more from you going
to that than you being at thefirst week of school.
I also went to Montpelier thatyear.
Nancie Lindblom (16:43):
I love that, and it was it was amazing, and
it was.
Liz Evans (16:47):
I think, after that year of it was 2016, that year
of teaching for me was probablyone of the best years, because I
was so.
I'd gone to street law, I hadgone to teaching American
history, I'd gone to a Bill ofRights Institute, I'd done all
of these things and I came backand I was like, let's go, like
I'm so stoked for this, um, so,one of the oh, sorry, I was
(17:11):
going to say I think that that'sso, the ones that you just
mentioned.
Nancie Lindblom (17:14):
Right, there's um, so many museums and
organizations that have allkinds of resources, for teachers
are offering these over thesummer, and, and I always find
that whenever I do somethingdirectly where I'm engaged in
the resources, I'm more likelyto use them in the future.
(17:34):
Yes, so knowing that theNational Constitution Center has
resources is one thing, butthen sitting in the National
Constitution Center where you'vejust heard from Akilah Marr,
who became one of my favorite ofall time standing in the room
chatting with you and tellingyou all kinds of things about
the constitution, and then theypull out and here's some of the
(17:56):
ways in which we teach it, andthen I'm looking at it there and
I'm thinking, oh yeah, I willdefinitely use this, and I do
Right, because I'm there and I'mengaged in the work, and I
think that you are more likely,whenever we have those
experiences, to actually use thematerials Right.
And so that's another reason whyI always encourage teachers
anywhere and we're not eventalking about these big ones
(18:18):
like the National ConstitutionCenter that we have to travel
for and get these lovelystipends for that they pay for
it and we don't have to, youknow, pay out of our pocket.
But we have those experienceshere.
I mean, asu has some wonderfulones that I've attended and
teachers have attended thatdon't cost me anything and I
actually get a little stipendright.
So anytime that I have theopportunity to engage and then
(18:39):
they can show me where thoseresources are found and what
they have to offer, I think itis a fabulous opportunity as a
teacher to just say yes andattend.
Liz Evans (18:49):
So, before we get to ASUs, I do want to also say so,
Nancie, you are a James Madisonfellow 2011?
.
Nancie Lindblom (18:59):
So I went in 2011, but I think I was awarded
in 2010.
Okay, I went to Washington DC,which is a part of that.
Liz Evans (19:06):
the year following, yeah so can you tell so for
people who do not know what theJames Madison fellowship is?
So I know lots of James Madisonfellows.
I happen to be married to one.
What?
What is the James Madisonfellowship and why should every
teacher in Arizona apply forthis award?
Nancie Lindblom (19:45):
that was that dealt with.
Well, that gave me anopportunity to use what I was
learning through the entireprogram on a day-to-day basis in
my classroom.
And I found that with AshlandUniversity in their MAG program,
which is the at the time it wasreally the only one that
existed, right?
And since I believe ASU has aprogram as well that's very
similar to it, but at the timethere wasn't another one.
But I was figuring out how inthe world am I going to pay to
(20:08):
go to Ohio every summer to takethese classes and to do this?
And I was like ready to takeout a loan.
But I started searching theinternet for is just any
scholarship exist, right?
The one I found was the Madison, right, so the Madison is a
fully funded master's program,right?
(20:29):
So basically, you get, I think,up to $24,000 for the master's
degree, as long as it's inAmerican history and government,
because it's a James Madisonfellow.
And in addition to the factthat you are paid for your
master's degree, they also payfor you to come to Washington DC
for four weeks and to study atGeorgetown University, right,
(20:53):
and with amazing professors, andthey take you around and you
have amazing experiences there.
That's where I actually got tomeet Ruth Bader Ginsburg, which
was, I mean, that one was like amind blow, but that was
incredible and we, in that wealso did a.
I'm pretty sure it was withMadison that we did a moot court
(21:14):
in the United States Court ofAppeals where the Chief Justice
of the Court of Appeals and hisclerks ran the moot court.
Liz Evans (21:23):
That's amazing.
Nancie Lindblom (21:26):
And then gave us insights into different
things.
It was.
It was fabulous, but that wholeexperience then.
So you have that four weekswhere one person from every
state is chosen every year as aMadison fellow and then you get
to bond in those four, fourweeks like and and a lot of
those teachers that I wasactually going to was that were
(21:49):
there.
With Madison, we're also doingthe same master's program that I
was, so we would.
We actually went from Madison tothe summers at in Ohio together
and I made fabulous friendsacross the United States that
were just as excited about associal studies as I was and
about history and government,and still keep in contact with
(22:12):
many of them.
Right, but the experience isjust.
It is one of the single mostgreatest experiences that I've
had, and through these differentprograms, was definitely the
Madison Fellowship, which gaveme the opportunity to get a
master's degree at a universitythat was designed literally for
teachers.
Right, their program entirelywas designed for teachers, which
(22:36):
then, of course, just grew myworld, being able to actually
have a master's in my contentarea, not just a curriculum
master's, which is a goodmaster's but the master's I have
.
It's a great, but it's not butthis master's like also affords
me the ability to be able toteach at a junior college and to
teach dual enrollment and toteach because I have a master's
(22:58):
in content area as well, and italso just gave me so many
primary sources and the otherresources for me to be used with
my students.
It just changed everythingRight, but that everybody that I
can try to convince I actuallysay go for the Madison.
In fact, to the last twoMadisons that have been chosen
(23:21):
from Arizona, I wrote letters ofrecommendation for Yay.
So I'm always trying toconvince people because it was
just they're a delightfulorganization and everywhere you
go in the civics world you'llfind other Madison fellows right
, and it's a network unlike anyother.
(23:44):
I was at the we the Peoplenational competition with my
team and we made it into the top10.
And after they make the top 10announcement, they have all the
top 10 judges all come into.
I mean teachers all come into aroom so that they can talk
about the logistics for the nextday and we're all chatting and
(24:04):
I realized that like six out ofthe 10 of us were all Madison
fellows and I was like, yeah,this seems about right, that
checks out, we share the samepassion, apparently.
Liz Evans (24:18):
Well, and that you know again, I went through it
secondarily with my husband.
I did apply a couple of timesand did not make it.
It is a thing that people don'tget it on their first try.
Nancie Lindblom (24:31):
Those are two people that I just talked about.
Both did not get it on theirfirst try, but got it on their
second try.
So I always encourage people todo more than once for sure.
Yes, because it is more normalto not receive it on your first
try than it is to get it on yourfirst try, right.
And and honestly, um.
With that in mind, I always, ifsomebody says to me I'm not
(24:54):
sure if I'm ready, I'm likeapply now, whether you're ready.
Or if you feel like you'reready to apply now and if you
get it you will be ready, Right,but if you don't, then they'll
give you another go around andyou'll be ready when you get it.
But absolutely apply and applyagain if you don't get it.
Liz Evans (25:22):
School of Civic and Economic Thought and Leadership
does have a master's degree thatthe Madison Fellowship has said
yes, this covers it.
They get to go up to Flagstaffin the summer.
It is an amazing program, andso, if you're interested in that
, in our show notes it is at thebottom.
You also, though, were the 2013Arizona Teacher of the Year,
and I want to bring that upbecause I was in 2014 class in
(25:45):
the top 10.
And one of the reasons that Iwas like I want to go for this
is because you won in 2013.
And we did not know each otherthen.
Nancie Lindblom (25:55):
Oh, I remember.
Liz Evans (25:57):
I remember, you know, my principal was like I think
you should apply for this.
And I'm like I don't know.
And I did a little bit ofresearch and that's when I kind
of found you and was like thisis the teacher I want to be.
Then I, you know what, I'mgoing to try it because I think
a lot of times too, especiallyin these like state or national
things, we we don't see socialstudies teachers a lot.
(26:20):
Right, and there are mathteachers that are amazing in
english.
There are so many amazingteachers, but I feel like the
we're just not represented asmuch.
So to see you in the yearbefore I I mean for me it opened
my eyes.
I don't think I've ever toldyou this and it was.
Nancie Lindblom (26:38):
It was like to me it was a big, it was a big
deal, and I think that it was.
Liz Evans (26:41):
it was like to me it was a big, it was a big deal and
I think that it was.
You know, keep applying, keeptrying for these things because,
like AEF, again I was in thetop 10.
I did not make it to the topfive.
Beth Mahoney was teacher of theyear 2014.
Shout out to Beth, my homie,2014.
(27:05):
Shout out to Beth, my homie.
But again it created thesebigger networks of people who
were cheering for you, who wantyou to go on and do things, who
will write letters ofrecommendation for you and kind
of, do you know all of thesereally cool things?
And so don't, yes I.
The whole point of that is donot get discouraged if you get a
no the first time.
Nancie Lindblom (27:25):
Yeah, and I always tell people with anything
, if it's a no the first time,try again.
And then there's always theseteachers that I will come in
contact with that say, oh, Iwould never get that, I'm not
even going to try.
And I think, well, of courseyou're not going to get it if
you don't try.
I mean, I've applied for thingsthat I have not gotten into and
(27:46):
I think to myself, oh darn it,but it hasn't stopped me from
saying, next time, right, goingfor something else.
Because every single time, withwhatever experience that has
been, it has shaped me as ateacher.
It has helped my students.
It has been what has made methe teacher that I am, and I've
never been on a single one ofthese experiences where I
(28:08):
regretted being a part of it,that I didn't take away
something that changed me or theway that I teach.
Liz Evans (28:14):
Yes, amazing.
So can we get to some more ASUspecific ones, because you have
been I want to call friend ofthe center um for a while,
mostly because we run in thesame circles.
You know, we're both on theboard of directors of the
Arizona Council for HistoryEducation which, if you are
listening to this now, monica,the president, has been.
(28:35):
On a past uh podcast episode.
She talked about the conferencewhich I'm so excited about.
What initially drew you to PDthrough ASU's Center for
American Civics.
Nancie Lindblom (28:52):
So I will say that I mean I think I've kind of
said this through the entiretime that I just love
professional learning when itcomes to social studies, if it's
related to it.
I want to be a part of that,and we don't actually have a lot
of it in Arizona, right?
So we have some.
Like I, before ASU started thisprogram, I had done a few
(29:16):
things with NAU through.
Is it the Springer Institute?
I think maybe it's the's wherethey do their Holocaust studies,
but but I so the minute thatthere was an opportunity through
ASU, I was like, yes, please,so.
(29:37):
and then I went to one and, ofcourse, it was just the types of
learning that I like to dowhere it's document based, where
it's talking to an expert,where it's taking a little look
at how can I implement this inmy classroom as well.
It's the perfect mix of the waythat I like these types of
experiences to go right.
I want it to be content heavyand then give me a few ideas on
(29:59):
how I can actually put this intomy classroom.
Right, and that's exactly theexperience that I've had with
ASU and to the extent that we'vebrought them over to our
district a couple of times,right, Because I'm like I would
like to share this experiencewith other teachers, and so
we've brought them in and we'vealways had a positive experience
.
But, but ultimately, theinitial draw was oh my gosh,
(30:21):
it's right here.
It's here in Arizona right, Idon't have to go anyplace, it's
right here and it's local.
And then once I attended, I waslike and it's good right.
Liz Evans (30:30):
So it's local and it's good.
Nancie Lindblom (30:32):
So we will continue to participate, for
sure.
Liz Evans (30:36):
My colleague, jeff, does a lot of those teacher
workshops.
Working with our faculty is sofun, it's such a cool job to
like now.
I mean, I work with faculty sothere are times where I'll just
walk down the hall because Ihave a question and it's like,
well, whoever's door is open.
Times where I'll just walk downthe hall because I have a
question and it's like, well,whoever's door is open and it's
always the right door.
I loved it.
You were also one of ourteacher mentors for our Civic
(30:59):
Leadership Institute and overthe past five years of the Civic
Leadership Institute that I'veoverseen, we've kind of gone
through different iterations ofit because of funding or
whatever else.
But can you kind of talk aboutyour experience with Civic
Leadership Institute, because Ithink that sometimes we talk
about it but until you're therewith the kids, with the faculty,
(31:21):
it's hard to explain.
Nancie Lindblom (31:25):
Yeah, it was great.
We had a fabulous time.
It again was a nice blend ofthings that I enjoy, like
hanging out with kids andtalking to them about important
ideas, listening to experts, um,having those important
conversations and then also, um,looking at it in a pedagogical
way in which they actually hadto do something.
Like the Institute that I was apart of, they did like a a
(31:49):
little mock moot court, so tospeak, right at the end of it
and the kids were so excitedabout it, they were so into it
and we got to kind of advisethem through the process.
But what a fabulous experienceto actually see students digging
into really kind of toughtopics in a way that was a, was
(32:09):
a, was a deep and analytical wayand blended really well
together.
Right, so they would havemoments where they were
listening to lectures, wherethere would be some give and
take from the professors, butthen they had all these sessions
where they would sit down withprofessors and also mentors and
really dig into and haveconversations about it and then
(32:30):
be able to ultimately kind ofassess how they were through
that moot chord at the end.
So it was a wonderful balanceand blend of looking at
different ways in which toengage students, but ours was on
the freedom.
Well, it was the FirstAmendment right and the insights
(32:51):
from students were fabulous andthe conversations were
incredible.
So it was just a wonderfulexperience and would absolutely
recommend this to students.
In fact, the next year, one ofmy colleagues, I was like I know
your daughter just loves thiskind of stuff.
You've got to get her to go,and she did, and she had an
incredible time.
(33:11):
We got a few students from ourfrom our school district to go
as well.
Besides her.
She was also from our schooldistrict and they all just had
an incredible experience.
So I would 100% recommend forstudents to be able to
participate in this.
Liz Evans (33:28):
And it gives them a little taste of college, I think
, like in a manageable way.
Right, like this is, I think,sometimes for students, college
is this like anomaly of, like oh, when I get to college, it's
going to be this, this and this,and it's like your professors
are people and they want to helpyou learn.
Like it's it's something that'sand you don't have to come in
(33:49):
knowing everything, and that'salways the question I get Well,
I don't really know a whole lot.
It's like, okay, I didn't knowa whole lot until I put this
reader together and I actuallylike I learned a lot by
listening to the kids.
Like there are times where I'mlike, oh my gosh, I never
thought of that.
Or last year they did cabinetbattles because it was on
(34:09):
Lincoln and Frederick Douglassand like the ideals of the
Declaration of Independence andit was so interesting because
they said things that I'm like Inever again I've been doing
this for two decades neverthought of that.
And I love learning fromstudents and I wish that more
people understood like thereason that we teach and work
(34:30):
with kids is because we learn somuch from them too.
Nancie Lindblom (34:34):
And we were like we don't know these
students, like it was only aweek long and yet during that
time, building thoserelationships with them, and I
will say that one of the myfavorite things was just
watching them as they interactedwith the professors.
They're used to talking to highschool teachers, they're used
to talking to us, right, but tosee them engaging with a
professor in an intellectual way, right when they were posing
(35:00):
questions and saying what theythought about different
documents and really engaging inthat conversation, I just loved
watching that and being a partof that.
Liz Evans (35:10):
And one of the things I love about our professors is
they really engage in kind ofthat Socratic dialogue.
So they're not the sage on thestage and they know a lot, right
Like, they'll give you thebackground, they'll do all this,
but kids will ask questions,and the way they respond and
engage a kid in a conversation Ithink also is such a cool thing
to watch because, you see, youknow, at first they're like
(35:32):
afraid to to ask questions orfree to engage.
By the end of the first day,hands are up, kids want to talk
because they have this time withthe professor, but then they
also have a time with a teachermentor who is going to be like
here's, like let's make sure weall get it, because that
pedagogical piece still needs toexist.
So we have the content from ourfaculty and the pedagogy and
(35:54):
and yes, and I'm I'm so gladthat you've been able to be a
teacher mentor also, you know, aparticipant in our workshops,
and I'm glad that we've beenable to come to your school
district because literallythat's why we exist.
We want to.
You know, I didn't have thatmuch like you, I had to go
outside, go to different placesto get my PD, and I feel
(36:15):
confident that I can speak forJeff too, like Jeff, and I just
love helping teachers.
At the end of the day, that'sliterally our job, and what a
cool job to have.
Plus, we get to work with coolscholars, so it's fun, I think.
My last question, then, for you, Nancie, because you are an
expert in this field whatprofessional development
(36:36):
experiences do you think aremost needed right now for
educators?
Because we're in again I hatesaying like we're in an
unprecedented time, because Iwant to throw that word out the
window, but I don't know howelse to say it.
It feels heavy, it feels hard.
What kind of PD experiences doyou think, because you work with
teachers?
What do you think that theywould benefit most from?
Nancie Lindblom (36:59):
I think that right now, anything that is
teaching you how to teach hardhistory with students, right,
and to do it in a civil dialogue, I think those are the most
important.
We're living in definitelyunprecedented times in the
classroom, for sure, right, andin a world that's very polarized
(37:22):
and we, by nature of what weteach, teach a lot of
controversial things.
So you know, you go back tothat idea that I mentioned
before with Diana Hess and herbook.
Like she talks entirely in thatbook about, it is our
responsibility as social studiesteachers, right, to be able to
(37:44):
lead our students through thesetough conversations in a way
that is civil.
But digging deeper into whatthat actually means, right, not
just, um, not saying to peoplelike civil is that we act nice
to each other?
Right, but digging into theidea of the a civil dialogue in,
in, in engages active listening, um, it engages me using
(38:09):
evidence when I am from crediblesources, when I'm giving
arguments with people and andactually is it an argument as
much as this is how I see it,and here's what the evidence
that I have that backs that upand then being able to actually
listen to somebody else do thesame thing, right.
So when I look at what I thinkis the number.
(38:30):
That's a hard thing to actuallymanage in a classroom.
That's not necessarilysomething that just comes to
teachers, and so any type oftraining, any type of
professional learning, that isgoing to gauge you through that
process, which is absolutelywhat I think teachers need the
most of right now.
And I'll say that we've always,in social studies, kind of
(38:51):
thought in that way in how wemake sure that we can train
teachers to be able to do thatin the classroom.
But we're seeing it more andmore and more because of the
times that we're living in rightnow, and so I see this
incorporated in just abouteverything that I participate in
.
Right Is there, they have thoseelements of it in right is there
(39:12):
, they have those elements of it.
Just recently there was here inArizona from the Korematsu
Institute.
They had a day and that was apart of the conversation, right,
like how do we teach this hardhistory?
(39:36):
And making sure that we don'tignore the history, right, but
that we teach it in a way thatis going to engage our students
and and allow them to have acivil conversation about what is
happening in history and whatlessons we can learn from that.
So that would be my.
My recommendation is findanything and everything that you
can that has to do with thattopic, because I don't want
teachers to shy away fromhistory and government.
(39:58):
I want them to teach realhistory and teach real
government.
So we need to find ways to makesure that we're still doing
that right, that we're notafraid to be out in the
classroom.
Liz Evans (40:10):
And if you're a member of the community
listening to this and you'relike, oh, I don't, kids can't do
that, that you need tovolunteer to judge for we, the
people because, and I, you know,I, I used to have my eighth
graders do congressionalhearings and they can.
They can, I will say becauseI've, you know, I've.
(40:30):
I've been to mountain viewwhat's on mountain view.
I've been to corona del solwhat's up Mountain View.
I've been to Corona Del Sol,who made top 10 in national this
year who is also that is my.
That's my high school.
It is genuinely probably themost refreshing thing to sit
there and and listen to thesestudents and listen to the
(40:51):
things that they're saying,because I always leave in my
head thinking kids are all right, like right.
You and I were were there, wewere helping with Corona and it
was like the kids are all right.
These kids are so awesome andthey can have these
conversations.
They sometimes just needguidance from adults who can say
have you considered this, haveyou thought about this?
(41:13):
And you know?
Huge shout out to the we thePeople teachers, because that is
a social studies is a hard job.
Preparing those kids for acompetition is a really hard job
.
So I do want to give a shoutout to the we the People
teachers because wow.
Nancie Lindblom (41:29):
There's also so many other programs out there
that I became more familiar withbecause of doing teacher right.
There's an awesome one withyouth and government that that
takes students to the Capitoland they run through what it is
to pass a bill and everythingright there.
And there is Project Citizenand History Day and all of these
(41:51):
things that literally aretaking our students exactly the
way we want them to be taughtright and and they're able to do
such amazing things.
I remember I, I um judged forum history day one year and I
did the elementary school leveland it was like some fourth
graders and fifth graders theywere just young and they were.
(42:12):
They blew my mind.
It was like oh my gosh, whatthey were able to accomplish and
know and then articulate.
And it was.
It was phenomenal to actuallysee that.
So absolutely Like when we canengage our students in this way,
it's, and they can do it right.
Liz Evans (42:30):
Yes, they absolutely can.
They just need they need adultsto believe in them and to care
about them and to volunteer forthese things.
I actually I'm doing theProject Citizen and I'm excited
because it's just, it genuinelyfills me up to do things like
this.
So, Nancie, you are a treasurefor the state of Arizona.
(42:54):
I am so lucky to call you afriend.
Thank you for your time today.
I just I adore you and I am sohappy that.
Nancie Lindblom (43:04):
I got to sit and talk to you For sure, and
thank you for inviting me.
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Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.