July 14, 2025 • 43 mins
What can America's first prison teach us about criminal justice today? Journey inside the imposing stone walls of Eastern State Penitentiary with President and CEO Kerry Sautner as she unveils the fascinating and troubling history of this revolutionary institution.
Built in 1829 as a castle-like structure visible from all directions, Eastern State wasn't just designed to punish – it represented a radical new approach to justice. Founded on Quaker beliefs that every person possesses an "inner light," the penitentiary introduced long-term solitary confinement as a path to reflection and redemption. The tragic irony? This well-intentioned experiment quickly revealed the devastating psychological effects of isolation, with mental health deterioration evident within just 15 days. Yet solitary confinement persists in most American prisons today.
The statistics Sautner shares are staggering: one in four American children has an incarcerated parent, and 77% of formerly incarcerated individuals return to prison within five years. "Imagine if that was a score on a test," she challenges. "You wouldn't pass at 33%." Through innovative programs like reentry simulations and educational initiatives for teachers nationwide, Eastern State now works to transform understanding of these systemic issues.
This conversation transcends typical prison discourse by examining fundamental questions at the heart of our democracy: What is the purpose of incarceration? What outcomes should we expect? And critically – is this how we as a society want to address crime and justice? Whether you're a teacher looking for classroom resources, a concerned citizen, or simply curious about this architectural marvel, you'll find Eastern State's approach both enlightening and deeply thought-provoking. Visit easternstate.org to explore their virtual resources and join this essential conversation about creating a more just future.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kerry Saunter (00:00):
You want to go, I'll go, okay.
Liz Evans (00:03):
I this.
This feels very timely and Ihate to say that about this
conversation, but today on thepodcast, we have my friend, uh,
Kerry Sautner, who is thepresident and CEO of the Eastern
State Penitentiary and I'mgoing to be honest, until you
(00:23):
started working there, I had noidea this existed.
So, Kerry, can you introduceyourself and then tell us what
is Eastern State Penitentiary?
Kerry Saunter (00:33):
Sure.
So hi everybody, I'm Kerry, Iwas just introduced, I've been
at Eastern State for about twoyears and this is a historic
site in Philadelphia.
It is the country's firstpenitentiary.
It's actually the world's firstpenitentiary, just to clarify
for everybody.
(00:53):
You can think of a penitentiaryas a prison, but it's a little
bit different and we'll get intothat.
But it is not active.
It is a historic site and it isa museum.
So we are in.
If people know Philadelphia,they know the Fairmount section.
It's over by the art museum.
We're in the Fairmount sectionof Philadelphia because the
Fairmount section was literallya fair mount and they, in the
(01:17):
early 1800s they build apenitentiary that looks, as my
children say, like a straight upcastle and it was a castle on
the hill and it was a placewhere people were sent to have
penance and to think about whatthey did wrong and it was also a
view line in the early 1800sfrom every different direction
(01:41):
so people could see it, which iswhy they placed it up there.
Now the history of Eastern Statecomes around before the
Constitution in 1787.
And it's really framing in thistime period of colonial America
and the new United States on.
How do we define freedom, howdo we define liberty and how do
(02:03):
we engage in a social contractfor a society that keeps people
both free and safe?
And this was this moment ofexperimentation and
enlightenment and change thathappened in America around the
Declaration, the Constitutionand Eastern State Penitentiary
which is a really fun story andI know we'll get into all these
(02:23):
questions State Penitentiarywhich is a really fun story and
I know we'll get into all thesequestions.
Liz Evans (02:32):
I it's just such a cool thing because I mean, I've
been to Philadelphia, Iabsolutely adore Philly and you
and I actually met when you werethe chief learning officer,
correct at the NationalConstitution Center.
The whole story of EasternState Because again, now that
you work there like I get allthis stuff with webinars and
what what is kind of this visionand mission of Eastern State
(02:55):
Penitentiary as a museum, as ahistorical site?
Kerry Saunter (03:00):
It is.
It's such a good question andright now we have been going
through a kind of a finding ourroots in a weird sense of who we
are as an institution and whatwe want to be, as we jokingly
all say when we grow up Likewhat is the work that we want to
do and how do we want to dothat work?
(03:20):
And being the new person on thesite do that work and being the
new person on the site.
So the site has been anonprofit museum for 30 years.
So it was an activepenitentiary and prison until
1971.
1970, it was state-owned.
1971, it was city-owned.
So all the way from 1829, whenits first incarcerated person
(03:44):
was brought here, all the way to1971.
It went through kind of a phaseof abandonment until the early
90s and then it was saved.
They were going to tear it downand basically make a target,
just so we're clear.
And here's the thing it's 11and a half acres of amazingly
beautiful architecture and themass invention of solitary
(04:08):
confinement.
Solitary confinement didn'treally exist before Eastern
State.
It did in small experimentationaround penance, but you're
alone in your cell in long-termsolitary confinement.
(04:30):
Nothing had existed like thisbefore and it has this really
brilliant intention of why, butwith a really tragic outcome.
So really good intention of whyis people believed and we still
do today that everybody hashuman dignity, everybody has
good in them and at the time,quakers.
(04:52):
The Quaker belief was extremelystrong in Philadelphia.
It still is today, strongacross the New England states as
well.
And the Quaker belief is thatevery single person has God in
them or an inner light.
And when you dive deep into thearchives of the religious
tenets of the Quaker belief isthat every single person has God
in them or an inner life.
And when you dive deep into thearchives of the religious
tenets of the Quaker belief,what you'll read in this time
period, in the early 1800s, late1700s, is if you really truly
(05:17):
want to hear God, you need tosit in quiet contemplation alone
.
So you I know this is the funpart about being in Philadelphia
we have all these Quakerarchives and you can dig into
the Quaker archives and you seeit, you see where the ideas came
from.
And then you say, okay, there'sa group of people that are
(05:38):
citizens and they say we need todo better.
And Junta is a part ofPhiladelphia with Ben Franklin.
Ben Franklin's a part of theEastern State story, benjamin
Rush, all these amazing playersin this colonial period, this
new American period and theycome together and they say every
single person has human dignity.
All we have to do is helppeople find that and then that
(06:01):
will be able to help ourcitizens and our society be
stronger and be better.
Brilliant idea, bad idea it'scome together by saying let's
put them in long-term solitaryconfinement, alone in a room
where you're basically whatfeels like you're vaulted in,
and that will help you find Godin that quiet contemplation.
(06:23):
We know today and they knewpretty quickly that it very
quickly broke people's minds.
It was an instant mental healthcrisis.
Within 15 days they could seepeople having long-term mental
health damage and that damage.
People are social creatures andthey saw it.
(06:47):
And so, when we think about,your original question was like
what is our mission, what areour values, what are these ideas
?
We've spent the last yeartrying to really examine how do
we define what our mission isfor, who we want to be and the
impact we want to have in oursociety today, but also where's
the weight and the power of thehistory of this site and how
(07:07):
does it give us legitimacy.
So I'm going to read for youour brand new mission.
So Eastern State preservesAmerica's first penitentiary,
advancing public understandingof the criminal justice system
and its impact on the lives ofthose affected by it, to inspire
a more just future.
(07:27):
So when we think about theintent of this place in 1787,
when the first groups werecoming together to define having
a place of penance to docriminal incarceration
differently than the extremelyviolent way that they were doing
it in Philadelphia and acrossthe world at this time, they
(07:49):
were thinking theseconversations and they were
saying we can do it differentlybecause we believe in human
dignity, we believe thateverybody can get back to that
inner light.
And they also believed that ifyou could give people a trade, a
skill, that people could beable to have a job when they
came home they would be highlyfunctional members of the
(08:12):
society.
So those things are stilllegitimate today.
We believe in human dignity.
Our Constitution is founded onboth human dignity and the fear
of humans to come up with reallybad ideas and not objects and
balances.
Yes, both, madison got it.
We want the best and we want tocheck everybody.
(08:33):
Madison got it on and you havethese amazing stories of these
great minds coming toPhiladelphia, not just to talk
about the Constitution and talkabout the Declaration, but to
come see Eastern State as well,and that is kind of mind-blowing
in itself.
Liz Evans (08:54):
That like there's so much in there.
The first thing, solitaryconfinement, like again, here's
this great idea that in practicedid not work right and it's
interesting that it's stillutilized today in prisons across
the nation, across the world.
So you're talking about likeliberty and freedom and criminal
(09:18):
justice, so how can we engagein restoration and healing, and
you know what does that kind oflook like?
Kerry Saunter (09:27):
Yeah, and again, why this mission of this
historic site is so powerfultoday.
So in you know 1787, they'retalking about liberty and
freedom.
And how do we ensure that whenwe remove somebody's liberty and
freedom, that there'sopportunities and pathways to
regain it?
Also, that they want to do itin a way that there's no badge
(09:49):
or incidents on them for life,there's no scarlet letter?
So that was also not having aname and nobody knowing that you
went to Eastern state was apart of its functionality.
But learn, yeah, no names andhidden because they didn't want
you to go back into society andeverybody labeled you because so
(10:11):
much of prisons at that timeand jails they really were jails
at that time.
They were public punishment infront of everybody and it was
violent and it was branding andwhipping and saccades like all
of the things public works, butvery rough hard labor and
everybody would know that youhad this and you did this thing
(10:34):
and so you couldn't reentersociety.
So this was this idea that youtake it into isolation.
But we know very quickly thatsolitary confinement is terrible
and yet we're still using it.
Only 25 states in the UnitedStates ban long-term solitary
confinement Only 25.
(10:56):
Solitary confinement it'spretty loose.
Most of the time they'relooking around a couple weeks.
But that doesn't mean you canbe pulled off of solitary
confinement for 15 minutes andput back into solitary
confinement.
And we know from cases thatcome out of the courts and cases
(11:17):
that hit our news that peoplein long-term solitary
confinement for years and thedestruction that we know.
So this is why some of theseoriginal concepts and ideas are
still echoing in our systemstoday.
We need to be aware of it.
We need to have thisconversation and say are we
doing it right?
And at the end of the day it'snot just are we doing it right?
(11:41):
Is we the people?
But have we given our power tothe government and is the
government doing it right?
So so much of the conversationsays should the government do
that, do we want the governmentto do that?
Like that's really theconversation.
And it's hard because we're notdealing with simple issues.
We're dealing with, you know,somebody who's committed a crime
(12:04):
, somebody who's also beenvictimized.
And we need to be really honestabout those conversations
because most of the time thosetwo people are one in the same.
And so when we look at women inincarceration, for example, 85%
of women who are incarceratedhave been sexually assaulted by
a close family member or acommunity member.
(12:27):
So people who are both a personthat's committed a crime are
also a victim.
So when we look we tend tobinary things in our brains like
this and that black and white,it's a lot of gray, and so these
are complex conversations andthey're hard too.
So we think of that solitaryconfinement.
We think of justice.
(12:48):
It is our constitutional goalto say have we established
justice?
Can we create a more perfectunion, with the call to action
to all of us to constantly beexamining it and say can we do
better and do we want thegovernment to do this?
Liz Evans (13:02):
I don't know if I answered your question there,
yes, and I know that listenerscannot see my face, but 85% is a
staggering, staggeringstatistic.
And you're right, I think thathuman nature wants us to be
right and wrong and this is notactually how things work.
(13:24):
So how do we have theseconversations about how criminal
justice at its best can work,knowing statistics like this,
85%, understanding that solitaryconfinement is actually worse
for the person than better foranything, person then better for
(13:48):
anything.
How do we have theseconversations?
Because when we talk about theright and wrong, I think that
people try to simplify like well, you committed a crime, you
need to go to prison.
What does that conversation inreality look like?
Kerry Saunter (14:02):
And that.
So I love that question becauseit's going to.
It's going to be different foreverybody, and we have to
remember that so many peopleit's like one in every two
adults has a close familyrelative that's been
incarcerated.
One in every four kids has aparent that's been incarcerated.
It in the system, um.
(14:23):
It in the system, um.
So when we have theseconversations, it's not it's not
like a theorist which I alwayslove to do, which is why my
brain goes there it's like Ilike to look at the data, like I
want to nerd out on the dataand I want to think about this
like almost like a scienceexperiment, and people will come
at this any way they choose,and that is your prerogative,
(14:46):
and so I think it is about howdo we come at this?
What is your lens, that youlike to go into this
conversation and then beingreally mindful that somebody
else in that conversation mightbe coming at it in a completely
different way, with directexperience on them, and this is
just people who are incarcerated.
When we dive into the numbersaround people who have family
(15:08):
members who have been a victimand again can be both of those
things at the same time it'sreally hard for people.
So we have to give a lot ofgrace.
But we have to look at this andgo to our founding ideas and
again, being at the ConstitutionCenter for so long and a lot of
my research has been around howdo we create just and fair
(15:29):
systems?
It's not about saying doessomebody deserve this or not.
It's saying is this the way wewant to do this as a country?
Is this a just and fair system?
And what I really think is aframing question we should ask
us.
We start with what's thepurpose of incarceration?
Let's just start to unpack itthere and then what do we expect
(15:51):
the outcome to be?
Because that is like to me thebookends are easier to start
walking your way to center,which is a really hard spot to
be in.
But something that I have to behonest with you our kids in our
(16:12):
classrooms are really good atthis.
You know they're hardwired forconversations around justice and
fairness, especially third tofifth graders.
We tend to think like this ishigh school level.
Third to fifth graders areneurologically hardwired to talk
about justice and fairness,literally.
Watch any group of third tofifth graders on the playground
and you hear them going that'snot fair.
You broke the rules and you'relike, oh wow, they really are.
Like this is.
(16:32):
I love teaching that bracketfor the constitution, but I
think it also allows people todo the to look at these big
pictures and then build trusteddiscussions where people can
share.
So one of the ways we do thathere and that we're working with
a group of teachers around thecountry to create toolkits that
(16:55):
go into classrooms and they'vebeen game changing for us is a
re-entry simulation.
So when people come home, theyhave a certain amount of things
that they have to do within ashort period of time when they
come home from beingincarcerated.
It's a lot and it's really hardand when you look at it you're
(17:15):
like how does anybody do this?
So what?
Our team has worked with theUnited States court system and
the reentry system and theycreated a simulation.
So it's basically like a livingmonopoly game board and you
have a short period of time toget everything done and you have
to follow a certain order andyou have to do certain things
(17:35):
and it's like one door doesn'topen unless you do the other
thing first.
So it's really tricky.
It's like the worst game ofchutes and ladders you can ever
imagine.
It's the easiest way for me toexplain it, but what we did was
we worked with student groups torun the re-entry court, so they
were the jobs of the courtsystem.
(17:56):
So one was, you know, gettingyour IDs, and another one was
the court system.
So there's basically like asimulation where you're going to
eight different stations.
The students are running thestations, so they're the justice
system on that side.
And then our community membersand this was groups that we've
done it with are all ages, someof them being teachers.
(18:18):
They're the participants, andso it is fascinating to watch
how quickly people getfrustrated, how quickly people
quit, how quickly people breakthe rules and do things that are
technically illegal forsomebody on probation and coming
home.
(18:44):
This is where I found it reallyreally powerful, because this is
where storytelling and eachindividual has their own lens
they bring to it, and this thisreally kind of chaotic, fun and
also frustrating experienceopens up the door to have
difficult conversations, but ina way, that's fun, which I know
sounds weird, but what happenedwas we do a talk back afterwards
and people with livedexperience run it.
(19:06):
So people have actually beenthrough this on both sides and
they have a dialogue and a talkback, and what we saw in the
last time we did this was with150 people.
What we saw was these ahamoments where people in the room
when you ask them before youstart, it are you or somebody
(19:27):
you know systems impacted by thecriminal justice system.
Hands went up.
At the end of the program yousaw more hands go up and it's
because people didn't realize it.
So many people are affected bythe criminal justice system but
we're not talking about it ever,which is kind of odd.
That this is like.
(19:48):
If this was cancer or this wasa disease, we'd be talking about
it and saying how do we preventthis?
So many Americans are impactedand we're not talking about it.
So when you run the simulation,then you have people realizing
wait a minute, I am impacted, itwas my uncle that was
incarcerated and I didn'trealize it till this experience
(20:11):
and so they can bring adifferent perspective.
But for us, what's so importantand one of our values at Eastern
State is to be civicallyengaged and to support people
with being civically engaged intheir community, in their state,
in their nation.
Now you get to go home and ifyou know somebody that's coming
home, you might treat themdifferently because you know how
(20:34):
hard it was.
So 77% of people arereincarcerated after coming home
within less than five years.
77% that means 33% of peoplemake it past the five-year mark.
Imagine if that was a rate forcuring childhood cancer.
(20:57):
Imagine if that was a score yougot on a test in class.
You would not pass a 33%.
But we're allowing ourgovernment to pass this test and
we're not looking at it.
But what they found out and whatthe research tells us is, if
you have a loved one or a friendthat is supporting you through
the process, that's your bestlikelihood, that's how you win
(21:21):
and that's how you get throughit.
And for us, we know so manykids have family members that
are system impacted.
So we know so many kids familymembers that are system impacted
.
So we have to help kids processthat too.
We have to help teachers helpkids process that, and adults
help each other.
So that is really how we takethis mission of an institution
that was designed to respecthuman dignity and to help people
(21:43):
and support people, and do thattoday, in 2025 and the future,
and live up to that system ofcoming back to our constitution
and saying it is our job, as we,the people, to make a more just
society.
Liz Evans (22:00):
I again, I'm just like sitting here.
So you're right, if a 33% is afailing grade and I think part
of it's like close, that isthat's my ad.
It is like statistics likethese, if people I think that
that's part of the conversationright, it's just knowing these
(22:21):
things and knowing, I mean,again, all these stats are just
they're baffling me.
I'm sitting here with my mouthopen because it I mean it is so
many kids are impacted, so manypeople are impacted, and I want
to kind of bring that a littlefurther.
So how do we look at theentirety of the system?
(22:42):
So not just the people who areincarcerated, but guards, right,
because you know a lot ofresearch has talked about
secondary trauma and alsofirsthand trauma.
You know they bring that homeand it affects community.
So how can we look at, kind ofthis entirety of the system and
(23:03):
not just focus on one piece ofit?
Because if we're really lookingat, you know, healing and
really human dignity, we have totake every person into account.
Kerry Saunter (23:16):
I love that and it's a systems approach.
So you can't you know you can'tfix one piece and the rest of
the house is falling down.
But you're like, but it's okay,I have a really nice mud room
but the plumbing is not working,like and don't like.
All of us have been throughsome kind of like home
renovations, get that, but like,sometimes you just live with a
(23:39):
really nice mud room and you'relike, I'll get there.
But I think that's reallyimportant because people are
affected on every angle of this,and this is so.
Much of my work in the past hasbeen around training police
officers.
So some of the work that I didfrom I'm trying to remember 2015
to 2023, our team at theConstitution Center trained
(24:03):
every Philadelphia policeofficer, every new recruit and
every Camden County, new Jerseyin-service and recruit police
officer, and that was if we wantto have a more just society, we
need to make sure we're lookingat all the systems, and we
think that's so important heretoo.
So I'm so glad that you broughtup the mental health crisis.
(24:23):
That is, not just the peoplewho are incarcerated, but the
people that work in anincarcerated system, and how
does that affect people?
And it affects people at everylevel.
We had a program two weeks agoon the economy of incarceration
and so often we think aboutprivate prisons.
(24:44):
There's only 8% of the prisonsin the United States are private
prisons, but that doesn't meanthat every single state-based
prison doesn't have aninterconnection between private
for-profit agencies and ourgovernment.
So we have to look at theentire system because there's a
lot of questionable behaviors,but that cannot get fixed if
(25:09):
we're not looking at the entiresystem and they affect the
guards, and so our reallyfascinating group called Worth
Rises.
I suggest everybody take a lookat their new piece, their new
book that is out and we have iton our YouTube channel.
You can go to easternstateorgand check out our YouTube
(25:30):
channel on our pages on this.
But really enlightening thatsome of the research-based
organization that looks out allthis data.
But they also get basicallycalls to action from people who
are incarcerated, but alsopeople that work in the system.
So so many of the calls thatthey get are from people that
(25:51):
are the law enforcement withinthe prison and they're seeing
this.
They're seeing people beingstarved in prison because of the
dollar being associated withthe food service industry.
That's who's calling and thisis impacting them.
They're watching this pain,they're watching this trauma,
they're watching this and weneed to stop again binary people
(26:14):
like good people, bad peopleand say we are all humans that,
at the end of the day, want todo good.
How do we work in a full systemto support each other?
So some of the work that we'relooking at here at Eastern State
is to bring people into thatdialogue that are working in the
incarcerated system to say howcan we do things differently?
(26:35):
We work with some of theexperimental prisons in
Pennsylvania and ouruniversities.
So Little Scandinavia is anexperimental prison system in
Pennsylvania that looks at theScandinavian prisons and tries
to move that into prison systemsin America.
(26:56):
One of our board members,jordan Hyatt, is an expert in
this and it's an internationalview of it, but he's doing that
work as well.
So we're really thinking abouthow do we make sure people are
aware, understand and then, whenthey're going to vote or
picking a judge or saying whatis the action that they take
(27:17):
they want to look closer at.
How are these judges sentencingpeople?
Are there plea bargains?
What are the issues with pleabargains?
Where are these systems notworking for the people that work
there and the people that areincarcerated there and it is a
systems approach that we need tolook at.
It does get overwhelming, butour goal is to really work with
(27:38):
these amazing organizations thatare out there.
Like the Avira Institute FAM isanother amazing organization
EJI, equal Justice Initiative,bryan Stevenson's groups these
are great organizations that arelooking at this work and for
Eastern State being this site ofit was the first site in
(27:58):
America for criminal justicereform.
It started here.
We are the convener of thesedialogues and bringing and
amplifying these amazing voicesto what we believe should be a
general public audience.
It should be a student audience, it should be a teacher
audience and should be a generalpublic audience and it isn't
just in the policy wonk field,it should be in every dialogue.
Liz Evans (28:24):
So if I'm a new teacher or a veteran teacher
who's listening to this and I'mlike this all sounds really
great.
How do I utilize this in myclassroom?
Because you brought up teachers, and I mean you and I speak the
same language.
We are teacher.
We are teacher and studentcentered.
You know, if we want to dosomething, we call in the
(28:44):
experts, and those experts areteachers.
So if I'm new to this entirething, what do you, at Eastern
State Penitentiary, have forsomebody in Arizona or somebody
in California or South Dakota?
Because I'll be honest, when Ifirst heard of Eastern State
Penitentiary, I'm like, well,that's in Philadelphia, like I
(29:07):
don't think that really hasanything to do with me here in
Arizona.
And I was wrong, happily wrong.
So what kind of stuff do youhave for teachers?
Kerry Saunter (29:17):
And I love the way that you frame that because
we go to the experts.
So we just launched last yearour new justice education
collaboratory, because there'smore people need to do this.
We need to have humility whenwe're talking about education
and say just because I mean,some of us have degrees in it
(29:38):
and have taught, but still, justbecause you went through fifth
grade doesn't mean you can teach.
Liz Evans (29:44):
A thousand percent.
It is when I taught fifth gradeit's not easy people.
Kerry Saunter (29:48):
I barely survived .
It is hard.
So what?
We started a year ago and theteam here has been doing this
for years.
We started experimenting.
What are ways that teachers canuse this material and what are
the right formats.
So just this weekend, ourteachers from around the country
are coming to Eastern State inPhiladelphia and we're spending
(30:12):
all day, friday and Saturday,looking at how do we teach this?
How do we teach this if you'reteaching a criminal justice
course?
How do we teach this if you'reteaching a social justice course
?
Or how do we teach this ifyou're teaching any American
history course and want to weavethis in?
How do we build reentrysimulations so a teacher can do
it anywhere?
Because, guess what?
(30:33):
There's a court system anywherein the country and you can work
with your local court system onthis, and they're fantastic at
this.
So these are all the ways thatwe're experimenting.
If you are in Philadelphia ever,please come visit us.
We'd love to see you in person.
We have a lot of onlineprograms.
We have for years, our team hasbeen doing live teacher and
(30:56):
student programs where you getto tour the site.
We have topics.
On the 13th Amendment and the14th Amendment.
On the 8th Amendment, the 1stAmendment, all of these pieces,
amendment, the First Amendment,all of these pieces.
We are the first prison systemin the United States and the
only to have a synagogue on site, so we teach religious freedom
(31:16):
courses as well, because we havea chapel, a chaplain's office
and a synagogue on site.
It's a really fascinating,unique place, eastern State.
So it has this preservation andbeauty.
It looks like a chapel but atthe same time, this pain and
tragedy around criminal justiceand around solitary confinement
(31:39):
and weaves through the entirestoryline of American history,
because this has been a part ofthe American experience from
1787 to today and that's what'sso fascinating.
It closes for incarceration atthe beginning of the boom of
mass incarceration and it'sbecause it couldn't house so
(32:00):
many people.
So so much of our work looks atthe boom of mass incarceration
and all of the policy and legalchoices we made as a country
that created us to be one of thetop three countries in the
world who incarcerate our owncitizens.
So it is a fascinating dialogue.
We have an Unlocking Historyseries that is perfect for
(32:22):
classrooms, perfect for everyage.
It's online.
We have live Justice 101programs online.
We're doing one in May on thehistory of solitary confinement.
It'll be the first time we getto teach a lesson on the history
of solitary confinement atEastern State and the world, but
it's a very fascinating historyand modern conversation.
(32:43):
And just to be really clearwith classrooms, because I know
there's a lot of tension goingon about how do we teach
American history, we are anonprofit, nonpartisan
organization, so our goal is toteach about our Constitution and
multi-partisan conversationthat we're having and we bring
(33:11):
those people to the table as ourexperts as well.
Liz Evans (33:15):
I love that Last question to kind of close it out
, because you're in Philadelphiaand we talked about this the
last time Philadelphia Eagleswon the Super Bowl and we were
talking about the parade andjust kind of sports in general.
Did you open the museum for theparade?
(33:35):
Tell me about that, because I'man Arizonan.
The Cardinals we haven't gotthere yet, right, we've been to
Super Bowl, haven't won, and Ido feel like Philadelphia in
itself is its own very uniqueand fun brand of sports fan and
(33:57):
so winning I mean I was cheeringfor the Eagles.
I'll be very honest.
So what was that like?
As you know, president ando ofthis incredible museum, and then
you have this parade coming by.
Tell me what that was like.
Kerry Saunter (34:16):
So it so, yes, frame it.
I love the way you framed it.
Philadelphia is unique to oursport.
Um, and if they're the,everybody will say you know
Philadelphia has a unique fanbase.
Um, it is a hysterical fan basetoo and it is funny and
entertaining.
(34:36):
Um, and really just wonderful.
It brings out like a like, atrue Philadelphian gene, like,
even if you're not from here,you get it pretty quickly and
then you turn into a Philly fanlike pretty fast.
So the parade is in front of theArt Museum of Philadelphia.
It's a big, beautiful artmuseum.
It's the Art Museum Parkwaythat it's on is modeled after
(34:58):
the Paris Parkways.
So it is absolutely gorgeousand meant for that.
So it's this long, beautifularchitecture.
It's like the idea and designbehind it, the parkway.
We're two blocks away.
So most area people, they didn'tknow what to do.
You know, places stayed openbut people closed Eastern State
we opened because there is not aplace in this area.
(35:20):
That's really like a welcomingcenter.
So many groups were closed.
We want it to be a welcomingcenter and it's because we have
such rich history with sports atEastern State.
So Eastern State, early 1900s,solitary confinement, is
completely given up upon.
They tried to keep it.
In certain ways it fell apartpretty quickly after the 1850s,
(35:43):
but it's completely let go of inearly 1900s.
Then sports became a huge partof Eastern state Because, if you
think about it, when peopleplay together and when they play
sports together, they learnboundaries, they learn rules,
they learn social engagement.
Again back to those third tofifth graders.
This is how we learn how tolive with each other in society
(36:04):
and follow rules and worktogether and also like heal.
It gives you a chance to heal.
We have to be really cognizantthat a lot of people that have
been incarcerated at EasternState were incarcerated for
reasons because they were poor,because they were not the norm
of society.
There were so many womenincarcerated originally at
(36:24):
Eastern State because they stoodup for their own rights and
they were poor and they were putaway because they weren't the
norm of society at the time.
So I just want to be reallytransparent and honest.
It's not always about peoplecommitting crimes, but people
not being the right people andput away, locked away from the
norm of society.
But sports were a big thing.
(36:45):
So we had every sport and thesports in the Eastern State were
integrated among the races farbefore any sport in America was
Far before the Eagles were aswell.
When we talk about integratingsports, eagles does not have a
great history of that and hasreckoned with that over the
years, so we thought it wasreally important to really be a
(37:08):
part of the community.
We are a place of trauma, butwe're also a place where our
community, people that areimpacted by incarceration,
people that live in theneighborhood, come back and
reclaim this trauma to do goodand to make good things happen
in our country.
So we really are intentionalabout claiming sites of trauma
(37:30):
to do good, and so we opened itup to everybody.
Our team did a great map so youcould go around and look at the
baseball field here and thetrack, and we had a bocce
tournaments here as well, so wewere really like a wide range of
sports.
Basketball that's amazing.
You can learn about all thesethings.
We have an amazing baseballactivity that we do in summer
(37:51):
programs too, and you can playbaseball at the same baseball
court and try to whack it overthe wall, just like everybody
did for hundreds of years herein Eastern state.
But we also wanted people to goto the Eagles parade, so we made
sure that people knew where topark and had a map to go there.
But the funniest thing ever isthe Eagles parade, and we're all
(38:13):
green when the Eagles win oreven when they're close to
winning.
Even when we lose, everybodywears green.
It was right around Valentine'sday.
Um, it was actually.
I think on Valentine's daythere wasn't a drop of red in
this city.
I have never seen a wave ofgreen like this in my entire
life in Philadelphia and I waslike, wow, there is so much
(38:36):
green, and even the storefrontsnobody was selling anything for
Valentine's day with green,green, green.
We reclaimed Valentine's day asa green holiday and not a red
one.
It was fantastic.
It's also the chiefs day is agreen holiday and not a red one.
It was fantastic.
It's also the chiefs, you know,like no red was allowed.
It was amazing.
I will tell you, I have neverexperienced a complete internet
outage like that, becauseeverybody was there and you, I
(38:59):
had a zoom, cause I was at work,Um, and I was going down to the
parade and I couldn't actuallyzoom because so many people were
pulling the internet.
So it was great.
The whole city kind of had togo have fun and everybody was
super positive.
So sometimes we get a bad rapin Philadelphia for our sports.
It was unbelievably positive,it was wonderful.
It was great to be a part of it, having Eastern State a part of
(39:20):
that.
And there was an eagle, anactual eagle, that flew through
the parade, not a trained eagle.
I know people lost their mind.
It was a wild eagle flewthrough the parade and the
entire, the entire.
It was millions of people juststopped and saw this, and so it
(39:41):
was a great day for Philadelphia.
It was a great day to see ourcountry come together and people
that may not politically not,you know always agree on things,
saying let's just have some funtogether, all wear the same
color and let's collaborate anddo something together, and I
feel like that is a greatrepresentation of what our
(40:02):
country needs to be doing whenleading in the 250.
We may come at this from lotsof different angles, from lots
of different lenses, from lotsof different lenses and have
lots of different questions, butat the end of the day, we're
all people and citizens togetherand we believe in each other,
and so we can do it together ifwe do that well for sports and
(40:22):
for history.
Liz Evans (40:25):
That was just like the perfect for this hurry.
I I am inspired, I am baffledby statistics and, as with every
conversation I have with you, Iam a better person afterwards.
Thank you so much for the workyou're doing in philadelphia,
(40:46):
mean nationwide, and for givingus all of this information today
.
I cannot wait to get back toPhilly and to come and
experience this after learningso much with you.
So thank you, thank you, thankyou.
Kerry Saunter (41:03):
Well, thank you guys for the work that you are
doing, because it's an amazingprogram at ASU, and I'm so glad
that you're leading the charge,because you are one of those
people that we always want tomake sure you help us and build
a better system, because you area brilliant teacher and a
fantastic citizen.
So thank you.
You want to go, I'll go, okay.
Liz Evans (00:03):
I this.
This feels very timely and Ihate to say that about this
conversation, but today on thepodcast, we have my friend, uh,
Kerry Sautner, who is thepresident and CEO of the Eastern
State Penitentiary and I'mgoing to be honest, until you
(00:23):
started working there, I had noidea this existed.
So, Kerry, can you introduceyourself and then tell us what
is Eastern State Penitentiary?
Kerry Saunter (00:33):
Sure.
So hi everybody, I'm Kerry, Iwas just introduced, I've been
at Eastern State for about twoyears and this is a historic
site in Philadelphia.
It is the country's firstpenitentiary.
It's actually the world's firstpenitentiary, just to clarify
for everybody.
(00:53):
You can think of a penitentiaryas a prison, but it's a little
bit different and we'll get intothat.
But it is not active.
It is a historic site and it isa museum.
So we are in.
If people know Philadelphia,they know the Fairmount section.
It's over by the art museum.
We're in the Fairmount sectionof Philadelphia because the
Fairmount section was literallya fair mount and they, in the
(01:17):
early 1800s they build apenitentiary that looks, as my
children say, like a straight upcastle and it was a castle on
the hill and it was a placewhere people were sent to have
penance and to think about whatthey did wrong and it was also a
view line in the early 1800sfrom every different direction
(01:41):
so people could see it, which iswhy they placed it up there.
Now the history of Eastern Statecomes around before the
Constitution in 1787.
And it's really framing in thistime period of colonial America
and the new United States on.
How do we define freedom, howdo we define liberty and how do
(02:03):
we engage in a social contractfor a society that keeps people
both free and safe?
And this was this moment ofexperimentation and
enlightenment and change thathappened in America around the
Declaration, the Constitutionand Eastern State Penitentiary
which is a really fun story andI know we'll get into all these
(02:23):
questions State Penitentiarywhich is a really fun story and
I know we'll get into all thesequestions.
Liz Evans (02:32):
I it's just such a cool thing because I mean, I've
been to Philadelphia, Iabsolutely adore Philly and you
and I actually met when you werethe chief learning officer,
correct at the NationalConstitution Center.
The whole story of EasternState Because again, now that
you work there like I get allthis stuff with webinars and
what what is kind of this visionand mission of Eastern State
(02:55):
Penitentiary as a museum, as ahistorical site?
Kerry Saunter (03:00):
It is.
It's such a good question andright now we have been going
through a kind of a finding ourroots in a weird sense of who we
are as an institution and whatwe want to be, as we jokingly
all say when we grow up Likewhat is the work that we want to
do and how do we want to dothat work?
(03:20):
And being the new person on thesite do that work and being the
new person on the site.
So the site has been anonprofit museum for 30 years.
So it was an activepenitentiary and prison until
1971.
1970, it was state-owned.
1971, it was city-owned.
So all the way from 1829, whenits first incarcerated person
(03:44):
was brought here, all the way to1971.
It went through kind of a phaseof abandonment until the early
90s and then it was saved.
They were going to tear it downand basically make a target,
just so we're clear.
And here's the thing it's 11and a half acres of amazingly
beautiful architecture and themass invention of solitary
(04:08):
confinement.
Solitary confinement didn'treally exist before Eastern
State.
It did in small experimentationaround penance, but you're
alone in your cell in long-termsolitary confinement.
(04:30):
Nothing had existed like thisbefore and it has this really
brilliant intention of why, butwith a really tragic outcome.
So really good intention of whyis people believed and we still
do today that everybody hashuman dignity, everybody has
good in them and at the time,quakers.
(04:52):
The Quaker belief was extremelystrong in Philadelphia.
It still is today, strongacross the New England states as
well.
And the Quaker belief is thatevery single person has God in
them or an inner light.
And when you dive deep into thearchives of the religious
tenets of the Quaker belief isthat every single person has God
in them or an inner life.
And when you dive deep into thearchives of the religious
tenets of the Quaker belief,what you'll read in this time
period, in the early 1800s, late1700s, is if you really truly
(05:17):
want to hear God, you need tosit in quiet contemplation alone
.
So you I know this is the funpart about being in Philadelphia
we have all these Quakerarchives and you can dig into
the Quaker archives and you seeit, you see where the ideas came
from.
And then you say, okay, there'sa group of people that are
(05:38):
citizens and they say we need todo better.
And Junta is a part ofPhiladelphia with Ben Franklin.
Ben Franklin's a part of theEastern State story, benjamin
Rush, all these amazing playersin this colonial period, this
new American period and theycome together and they say every
single person has human dignity.
All we have to do is helppeople find that and then that
(06:01):
will be able to help ourcitizens and our society be
stronger and be better.
Brilliant idea, bad idea it'scome together by saying let's
put them in long-term solitaryconfinement, alone in a room
where you're basically whatfeels like you're vaulted in,
and that will help you find Godin that quiet contemplation.
(06:23):
We know today and they knewpretty quickly that it very
quickly broke people's minds.
It was an instant mental healthcrisis.
Within 15 days they could seepeople having long-term mental
health damage and that damage.
People are social creatures andthey saw it.
(06:47):
And so, when we think about,your original question was like
what is our mission, what areour values, what are these ideas
?
We've spent the last yeartrying to really examine how do
we define what our mission isfor, who we want to be and the
impact we want to have in oursociety today, but also where's
the weight and the power of thehistory of this site and how
(07:07):
does it give us legitimacy.
So I'm going to read for youour brand new mission.
So Eastern State preservesAmerica's first penitentiary,
advancing public understandingof the criminal justice system
and its impact on the lives ofthose affected by it, to inspire
a more just future.
(07:27):
So when we think about theintent of this place in 1787,
when the first groups werecoming together to define having
a place of penance to docriminal incarceration
differently than the extremelyviolent way that they were doing
it in Philadelphia and acrossthe world at this time, they
(07:49):
were thinking theseconversations and they were
saying we can do it differentlybecause we believe in human
dignity, we believe thateverybody can get back to that
inner light.
And they also believed that ifyou could give people a trade, a
skill, that people could beable to have a job when they
came home they would be highlyfunctional members of the
(08:12):
society.
So those things are stilllegitimate today.
We believe in human dignity.
Our Constitution is founded onboth human dignity and the fear
of humans to come up with reallybad ideas and not objects and
balances.
Yes, both, madison got it.
We want the best and we want tocheck everybody.
(08:33):
Madison got it on and you havethese amazing stories of these
great minds coming toPhiladelphia, not just to talk
about the Constitution and talkabout the Declaration, but to
come see Eastern State as well,and that is kind of mind-blowing
in itself.
Liz Evans (08:54):
That like there's so much in there.
The first thing, solitaryconfinement, like again, here's
this great idea that in practicedid not work right and it's
interesting that it's stillutilized today in prisons across
the nation, across the world.
So you're talking about likeliberty and freedom and criminal
(09:18):
justice, so how can we engagein restoration and healing, and
you know what does that kind oflook like?
Kerry Saunter (09:27):
Yeah, and again, why this mission of this
historic site is so powerfultoday.
So in you know 1787, they'retalking about liberty and
freedom.
And how do we ensure that whenwe remove somebody's liberty and
freedom, that there'sopportunities and pathways to
regain it?
Also, that they want to do itin a way that there's no badge
(09:49):
or incidents on them for life,there's no scarlet letter?
So that was also not having aname and nobody knowing that you
went to Eastern state was apart of its functionality.
But learn, yeah, no names andhidden because they didn't want
you to go back into society andeverybody labeled you because so
(10:11):
much of prisons at that timeand jails they really were jails
at that time.
They were public punishment infront of everybody and it was
violent and it was branding andwhipping and saccades like all
of the things public works, butvery rough hard labor and
everybody would know that youhad this and you did this thing
(10:34):
and so you couldn't reentersociety.
So this was this idea that youtake it into isolation.
But we know very quickly thatsolitary confinement is terrible
and yet we're still using it.
Only 25 states in the UnitedStates ban long-term solitary
confinement Only 25.
(10:56):
Solitary confinement it'spretty loose.
Most of the time they'relooking around a couple weeks.
But that doesn't mean you canbe pulled off of solitary
confinement for 15 minutes andput back into solitary
confinement.
And we know from cases thatcome out of the courts and cases
(11:17):
that hit our news that peoplein long-term solitary
confinement for years and thedestruction that we know.
So this is why some of theseoriginal concepts and ideas are
still echoing in our systemstoday.
We need to be aware of it.
We need to have thisconversation and say are we
doing it right?
And at the end of the day it'snot just are we doing it right?
(11:41):
Is we the people?
But have we given our power tothe government and is the
government doing it right?
So so much of the conversationsays should the government do
that, do we want the governmentto do that?
Like that's really theconversation.
And it's hard because we're notdealing with simple issues.
We're dealing with, you know,somebody who's committed a crime
(12:04):
, somebody who's also beenvictimized.
And we need to be really honestabout those conversations
because most of the time thosetwo people are one in the same.
And so when we look at women inincarceration, for example, 85%
of women who are incarceratedhave been sexually assaulted by
a close family member or acommunity member.
(12:27):
So people who are both a personthat's committed a crime are
also a victim.
So when we look we tend tobinary things in our brains like
this and that black and white,it's a lot of gray, and so these
are complex conversations andthey're hard too.
So we think of that solitaryconfinement.
We think of justice.
(12:48):
It is our constitutional goalto say have we established
justice?
Can we create a more perfectunion, with the call to action
to all of us to constantly beexamining it and say can we do
better and do we want thegovernment to do this?
Liz Evans (13:02):
I don't know if I answered your question there,
yes, and I know that listenerscannot see my face, but 85% is a
staggering, staggeringstatistic.
And you're right, I think thathuman nature wants us to be
right and wrong and this is notactually how things work.
(13:24):
So how do we have theseconversations about how criminal
justice at its best can work,knowing statistics like this,
85%, understanding that solitaryconfinement is actually worse
for the person than better foranything, person then better for
(13:48):
anything.
How do we have theseconversations?
Because when we talk about theright and wrong, I think that
people try to simplify like well, you committed a crime, you
need to go to prison.
What does that conversation inreality look like?
Kerry Saunter (14:02):
And that.
So I love that question becauseit's going to.
It's going to be different foreverybody, and we have to
remember that so many peopleit's like one in every two
adults has a close familyrelative that's been
incarcerated.
One in every four kids has aparent that's been incarcerated.
It in the system, um.
(14:23):
It in the system, um.
So when we have theseconversations, it's not it's not
like a theorist which I alwayslove to do, which is why my
brain goes there it's like Ilike to look at the data, like I
want to nerd out on the dataand I want to think about this
like almost like a scienceexperiment, and people will come
at this any way they choose,and that is your prerogative,
(14:46):
and so I think it is about howdo we come at this?
What is your lens, that youlike to go into this
conversation and then beingreally mindful that somebody
else in that conversation mightbe coming at it in a completely
different way, with directexperience on them, and this is
just people who are incarcerated.
When we dive into the numbersaround people who have family
(15:08):
members who have been a victimand again can be both of those
things at the same time it'sreally hard for people.
So we have to give a lot ofgrace.
But we have to look at this andgo to our founding ideas and
again, being at the ConstitutionCenter for so long and a lot of
my research has been around howdo we create just and fair
(15:29):
systems?
It's not about saying doessomebody deserve this or not.
It's saying is this the way wewant to do this as a country?
Is this a just and fair system?
And what I really think is aframing question we should ask
us.
We start with what's thepurpose of incarceration?
Let's just start to unpack itthere and then what do we expect
(15:51):
the outcome to be?
Because that is like to me thebookends are easier to start
walking your way to center,which is a really hard spot to
be in.
But something that I have to behonest with you our kids in our
(16:12):
classrooms are really good atthis.
You know they're hardwired forconversations around justice and
fairness, especially third tofifth graders.
We tend to think like this ishigh school level.
Third to fifth graders areneurologically hardwired to talk
about justice and fairness,literally.
Watch any group of third tofifth graders on the playground
and you hear them going that'snot fair.
You broke the rules and you'relike, oh wow, they really are.
Like this is.
(16:32):
I love teaching that bracketfor the constitution, but I
think it also allows people todo the to look at these big
pictures and then build trusteddiscussions where people can
share.
So one of the ways we do thathere and that we're working with
a group of teachers around thecountry to create toolkits that
(16:55):
go into classrooms and they'vebeen game changing for us is a
re-entry simulation.
So when people come home, theyhave a certain amount of things
that they have to do within ashort period of time when they
come home from beingincarcerated.
It's a lot and it's really hardand when you look at it you're
(17:15):
like how does anybody do this?
So what?
Our team has worked with theUnited States court system and
the reentry system and theycreated a simulation.
So it's basically like a livingmonopoly game board and you
have a short period of time toget everything done and you have
to follow a certain order andyou have to do certain things
(17:35):
and it's like one door doesn'topen unless you do the other
thing first.
So it's really tricky.
It's like the worst game ofchutes and ladders you can ever
imagine.
It's the easiest way for me toexplain it, but what we did was
we worked with student groups torun the re-entry court, so they
were the jobs of the courtsystem.
(17:56):
So one was, you know, gettingyour IDs, and another one was
the court system.
So there's basically like asimulation where you're going to
eight different stations.
The students are running thestations, so they're the justice
system on that side.
And then our community membersand this was groups that we've
done it with are all ages, someof them being teachers.
(18:18):
They're the participants, andso it is fascinating to watch
how quickly people getfrustrated, how quickly people
quit, how quickly people breakthe rules and do things that are
technically illegal forsomebody on probation and coming
home.
(18:44):
This is where I found it reallyreally powerful, because this is
where storytelling and eachindividual has their own lens
they bring to it, and this thisreally kind of chaotic, fun and
also frustrating experienceopens up the door to have
difficult conversations, but ina way, that's fun, which I know
sounds weird, but what happenedwas we do a talk back afterwards
and people with livedexperience run it.
(19:06):
So people have actually beenthrough this on both sides and
they have a dialogue and a talkback, and what we saw in the
last time we did this was with150 people.
What we saw was these ahamoments where people in the room
when you ask them before youstart, it are you or somebody
(19:27):
you know systems impacted by thecriminal justice system.
Hands went up.
At the end of the program yousaw more hands go up and it's
because people didn't realize it.
So many people are affected bythe criminal justice system but
we're not talking about it ever,which is kind of odd.
That this is like.
(19:48):
If this was cancer or this wasa disease, we'd be talking about
it and saying how do we preventthis?
So many Americans are impactedand we're not talking about it.
So when you run the simulation,then you have people realizing
wait a minute, I am impacted, itwas my uncle that was
incarcerated and I didn'trealize it till this experience
(20:11):
and so they can bring adifferent perspective.
But for us, what's so importantand one of our values at Eastern
State is to be civicallyengaged and to support people
with being civically engaged intheir community, in their state,
in their nation.
Now you get to go home and ifyou know somebody that's coming
home, you might treat themdifferently because you know how
(20:34):
hard it was.
So 77% of people arereincarcerated after coming home
within less than five years.
77% that means 33% of peoplemake it past the five-year mark.
Imagine if that was a rate forcuring childhood cancer.
(20:57):
Imagine if that was a score yougot on a test in class.
You would not pass a 33%.
But we're allowing ourgovernment to pass this test and
we're not looking at it.
But what they found out and whatthe research tells us is, if
you have a loved one or a friendthat is supporting you through
the process, that's your bestlikelihood, that's how you win
(21:21):
and that's how you get throughit.
And for us, we know so manykids have family members that
are system impacted.
So we know so many kids familymembers that are system impacted
.
So we have to help kids processthat too.
We have to help teachers helpkids process that, and adults
help each other.
So that is really how we takethis mission of an institution
that was designed to respecthuman dignity and to help people
(21:43):
and support people, and do thattoday, in 2025 and the future,
and live up to that system ofcoming back to our constitution
and saying it is our job, as we,the people, to make a more just
society.
Liz Evans (22:00):
I again, I'm just like sitting here.
So you're right, if a 33% is afailing grade and I think part
of it's like close, that isthat's my ad.
It is like statistics likethese, if people I think that
that's part of the conversationright, it's just knowing these
(22:21):
things and knowing, I mean,again, all these stats are just
they're baffling me.
I'm sitting here with my mouthopen because it I mean it is so
many kids are impacted, so manypeople are impacted, and I want
to kind of bring that a littlefurther.
So how do we look at theentirety of the system?
(22:42):
So not just the people who areincarcerated, but guards, right,
because you know a lot ofresearch has talked about
secondary trauma and alsofirsthand trauma.
You know they bring that homeand it affects community.
So how can we look at, kind ofthis entirety of the system and
(23:03):
not just focus on one piece ofit?
Because if we're really lookingat, you know, healing and
really human dignity, we have totake every person into account.
Kerry Saunter (23:16):
I love that and it's a systems approach.
So you can't you know you can'tfix one piece and the rest of
the house is falling down.
But you're like, but it's okay,I have a really nice mud room
but the plumbing is not working,like and don't like.
All of us have been throughsome kind of like home
renovations, get that, but like,sometimes you just live with a
(23:39):
really nice mud room and you'relike, I'll get there.
But I think that's reallyimportant because people are
affected on every angle of this,and this is so.
Much of my work in the past hasbeen around training police
officers.
So some of the work that I didfrom I'm trying to remember 2015
to 2023, our team at theConstitution Center trained
(24:03):
every Philadelphia policeofficer, every new recruit and
every Camden County, new Jerseyin-service and recruit police
officer, and that was if we wantto have a more just society, we
need to make sure we're lookingat all the systems, and we
think that's so important heretoo.
So I'm so glad that you broughtup the mental health crisis.
(24:23):
That is, not just the peoplewho are incarcerated, but the
people that work in anincarcerated system, and how
does that affect people?
And it affects people at everylevel.
We had a program two weeks agoon the economy of incarceration
and so often we think aboutprivate prisons.
(24:44):
There's only 8% of the prisonsin the United States are private
prisons, but that doesn't meanthat every single state-based
prison doesn't have aninterconnection between private
for-profit agencies and ourgovernment.
So we have to look at theentire system because there's a
lot of questionable behaviors,but that cannot get fixed if
(25:09):
we're not looking at the entiresystem and they affect the
guards, and so our reallyfascinating group called Worth
Rises.
I suggest everybody take a lookat their new piece, their new
book that is out and we have iton our YouTube channel.
You can go to easternstateorgand check out our YouTube
(25:30):
channel on our pages on this.
But really enlightening thatsome of the research-based
organization that looks out allthis data.
But they also get basicallycalls to action from people who
are incarcerated, but alsopeople that work in the system.
So so many of the calls thatthey get are from people that
(25:51):
are the law enforcement withinthe prison and they're seeing
this.
They're seeing people beingstarved in prison because of the
dollar being associated withthe food service industry.
That's who's calling and thisis impacting them.
They're watching this pain,they're watching this trauma,
they're watching this and weneed to stop again binary people
(26:14):
like good people, bad peopleand say we are all humans that,
at the end of the day, want todo good.
How do we work in a full systemto support each other?
So some of the work that we'relooking at here at Eastern State
is to bring people into thatdialogue that are working in the
incarcerated system to say howcan we do things differently?
(26:35):
We work with some of theexperimental prisons in
Pennsylvania and ouruniversities.
So Little Scandinavia is anexperimental prison system in
Pennsylvania that looks at theScandinavian prisons and tries
to move that into prison systemsin America.
(26:56):
One of our board members,jordan Hyatt, is an expert in
this and it's an internationalview of it, but he's doing that
work as well.
So we're really thinking abouthow do we make sure people are
aware, understand and then, whenthey're going to vote or
picking a judge or saying whatis the action that they take
(27:17):
they want to look closer at.
How are these judges sentencingpeople?
Are there plea bargains?
What are the issues with pleabargains?
Where are these systems notworking for the people that work
there and the people that areincarcerated there and it is a
systems approach that we need tolook at.
It does get overwhelming, butour goal is to really work with
(27:38):
these amazing organizations thatare out there.
Like the Avira Institute FAM isanother amazing organization
EJI, equal Justice Initiative,bryan Stevenson's groups these
are great organizations that arelooking at this work and for
Eastern State being this site ofit was the first site in
(27:58):
America for criminal justicereform.
It started here.
We are the convener of thesedialogues and bringing and
amplifying these amazing voicesto what we believe should be a
general public audience.
It should be a student audience, it should be a teacher
audience and should be a generalpublic audience and it isn't
just in the policy wonk field,it should be in every dialogue.
Liz Evans (28:24):
So if I'm a new teacher or a veteran teacher
who's listening to this and I'mlike this all sounds really
great.
How do I utilize this in myclassroom?
Because you brought up teachers, and I mean you and I speak the
same language.
We are teacher.
We are teacher and studentcentered.
You know, if we want to dosomething, we call in the
(28:44):
experts, and those experts areteachers.
So if I'm new to this entirething, what do you, at Eastern
State Penitentiary, have forsomebody in Arizona or somebody
in California or South Dakota?
Because I'll be honest, when Ifirst heard of Eastern State
Penitentiary, I'm like, well,that's in Philadelphia, like I
(29:07):
don't think that really hasanything to do with me here in
Arizona.
And I was wrong, happily wrong.
So what kind of stuff do youhave for teachers?
Kerry Saunter (29:17):
And I love the way that you frame that because
we go to the experts.
So we just launched last yearour new justice education
collaboratory, because there'smore people need to do this.
We need to have humility whenwe're talking about education
and say just because I mean,some of us have degrees in it
(29:38):
and have taught, but still, justbecause you went through fifth
grade doesn't mean you can teach.
Liz Evans (29:44):
A thousand percent.
It is when I taught fifth gradeit's not easy people.
Kerry Saunter (29:48):
I barely survived .
It is hard.
So what?
We started a year ago and theteam here has been doing this
for years.
We started experimenting.
What are ways that teachers canuse this material and what are
the right formats.
So just this weekend, ourteachers from around the country
are coming to Eastern State inPhiladelphia and we're spending
(30:12):
all day, friday and Saturday,looking at how do we teach this?
How do we teach this if you'reteaching a criminal justice
course?
How do we teach this if you'reteaching a social justice course
?
Or how do we teach this ifyou're teaching any American
history course and want to weavethis in?
How do we build reentrysimulations so a teacher can do
it anywhere?
Because, guess what?
(30:33):
There's a court system anywherein the country and you can work
with your local court system onthis, and they're fantastic at
this.
So these are all the ways thatwe're experimenting.
If you are in Philadelphia ever,please come visit us.
We'd love to see you in person.
We have a lot of onlineprograms.
We have for years, our team hasbeen doing live teacher and
(30:56):
student programs where you getto tour the site.
We have topics.
On the 13th Amendment and the14th Amendment.
On the 8th Amendment, the 1stAmendment, all of these pieces,
amendment, the First Amendment,all of these pieces.
We are the first prison systemin the United States and the
only to have a synagogue on site, so we teach religious freedom
(31:16):
courses as well, because we havea chapel, a chaplain's office
and a synagogue on site.
It's a really fascinating,unique place, eastern State.
So it has this preservation andbeauty.
It looks like a chapel but atthe same time, this pain and
tragedy around criminal justiceand around solitary confinement
(31:39):
and weaves through the entirestoryline of American history,
because this has been a part ofthe American experience from
1787 to today and that's what'sso fascinating.
It closes for incarceration atthe beginning of the boom of
mass incarceration and it'sbecause it couldn't house so
(32:00):
many people.
So so much of our work looks atthe boom of mass incarceration
and all of the policy and legalchoices we made as a country
that created us to be one of thetop three countries in the
world who incarcerate our owncitizens.
So it is a fascinating dialogue.
We have an Unlocking Historyseries that is perfect for
(32:22):
classrooms, perfect for everyage.
It's online.
We have live Justice 101programs online.
We're doing one in May on thehistory of solitary confinement.
It'll be the first time we getto teach a lesson on the history
of solitary confinement atEastern State and the world, but
it's a very fascinating historyand modern conversation.
(32:43):
And just to be really clearwith classrooms, because I know
there's a lot of tension goingon about how do we teach
American history, we are anonprofit, nonpartisan
organization, so our goal is toteach about our Constitution and
multi-partisan conversationthat we're having and we bring
(33:11):
those people to the table as ourexperts as well.
Liz Evans (33:15):
I love that Last question to kind of close it out
, because you're in Philadelphiaand we talked about this the
last time Philadelphia Eagleswon the Super Bowl and we were
talking about the parade andjust kind of sports in general.
Did you open the museum for theparade?
(33:35):
Tell me about that, because I'man Arizonan.
The Cardinals we haven't gotthere yet, right, we've been to
Super Bowl, haven't won, and Ido feel like Philadelphia in
itself is its own very uniqueand fun brand of sports fan and
(33:57):
so winning I mean I was cheeringfor the Eagles.
I'll be very honest.
So what was that like?
As you know, president ando ofthis incredible museum, and then
you have this parade coming by.
Tell me what that was like.
Kerry Saunter (34:16):
So it so, yes, frame it.
I love the way you framed it.
Philadelphia is unique to oursport.
Um, and if they're the,everybody will say you know
Philadelphia has a unique fanbase.
Um, it is a hysterical fan basetoo and it is funny and
entertaining.
(34:36):
Um, and really just wonderful.
It brings out like a like, atrue Philadelphian gene, like,
even if you're not from here,you get it pretty quickly and
then you turn into a Philly fanlike pretty fast.
So the parade is in front of theArt Museum of Philadelphia.
It's a big, beautiful artmuseum.
It's the Art Museum Parkwaythat it's on is modeled after
(34:58):
the Paris Parkways.
So it is absolutely gorgeousand meant for that.
So it's this long, beautifularchitecture.
It's like the idea and designbehind it, the parkway.
We're two blocks away.
So most area people, they didn'tknow what to do.
You know, places stayed openbut people closed Eastern State
we opened because there is not aplace in this area.
(35:20):
That's really like a welcomingcenter.
So many groups were closed.
We want it to be a welcomingcenter and it's because we have
such rich history with sports atEastern State.
So Eastern State, early 1900s,solitary confinement, is
completely given up upon.
They tried to keep it.
In certain ways it fell apartpretty quickly after the 1850s,
(35:43):
but it's completely let go of inearly 1900s.
Then sports became a huge partof Eastern state Because, if you
think about it, when peopleplay together and when they play
sports together, they learnboundaries, they learn rules,
they learn social engagement.
Again back to those third tofifth graders.
This is how we learn how tolive with each other in society
(36:04):
and follow rules and worktogether and also like heal.
It gives you a chance to heal.
We have to be really cognizantthat a lot of people that have
been incarcerated at EasternState were incarcerated for
reasons because they were poor,because they were not the norm
of society.
There were so many womenincarcerated originally at
(36:24):
Eastern State because they stoodup for their own rights and
they were poor and they were putaway because they weren't the
norm of society at the time.
So I just want to be reallytransparent and honest.
It's not always about peoplecommitting crimes, but people
not being the right people andput away, locked away from the
norm of society.
But sports were a big thing.
(36:45):
So we had every sport and thesports in the Eastern State were
integrated among the races farbefore any sport in America was
Far before the Eagles were aswell.
When we talk about integratingsports, eagles does not have a
great history of that and hasreckoned with that over the
years, so we thought it wasreally important to really be a
(37:08):
part of the community.
We are a place of trauma, butwe're also a place where our
community, people that areimpacted by incarceration,
people that live in theneighborhood, come back and
reclaim this trauma to do goodand to make good things happen
in our country.
So we really are intentionalabout claiming sites of trauma
(37:30):
to do good, and so we opened itup to everybody.
Our team did a great map so youcould go around and look at the
baseball field here and thetrack, and we had a bocce
tournaments here as well, so wewere really like a wide range of
sports.
Basketball that's amazing.
You can learn about all thesethings.
We have an amazing baseballactivity that we do in summer
(37:51):
programs too, and you can playbaseball at the same baseball
court and try to whack it overthe wall, just like everybody
did for hundreds of years herein Eastern state.
But we also wanted people to goto the Eagles parade, so we made
sure that people knew where topark and had a map to go there.
But the funniest thing ever isthe Eagles parade, and we're all
(38:13):
green when the Eagles win oreven when they're close to
winning.
Even when we lose, everybodywears green.
It was right around Valentine'sday.
Um, it was actually.
I think on Valentine's daythere wasn't a drop of red in
this city.
I have never seen a wave ofgreen like this in my entire
life in Philadelphia and I waslike, wow, there is so much
(38:36):
green, and even the storefrontsnobody was selling anything for
Valentine's day with green,green, green.
We reclaimed Valentine's day asa green holiday and not a red
one.
It was fantastic.
It's also the chiefs day is agreen holiday and not a red one.
It was fantastic.
It's also the chiefs, you know,like no red was allowed.
It was amazing.
I will tell you, I have neverexperienced a complete internet
outage like that, becauseeverybody was there and you, I
(38:59):
had a zoom, cause I was at work,Um, and I was going down to the
parade and I couldn't actuallyzoom because so many people were
pulling the internet.
So it was great.
The whole city kind of had togo have fun and everybody was
super positive.
So sometimes we get a bad rapin Philadelphia for our sports.
It was unbelievably positive,it was wonderful.
It was great to be a part of it, having Eastern State a part of
(39:20):
that.
And there was an eagle, anactual eagle, that flew through
the parade, not a trained eagle.
I know people lost their mind.
It was a wild eagle flewthrough the parade and the
entire, the entire.
It was millions of people juststopped and saw this, and so it
(39:41):
was a great day for Philadelphia.
It was a great day to see ourcountry come together and people
that may not politically not,you know always agree on things,
saying let's just have some funtogether, all wear the same
color and let's collaborate anddo something together, and I
feel like that is a greatrepresentation of what our
(40:02):
country needs to be doing whenleading in the 250.
We may come at this from lotsof different angles, from lots
of different lenses, from lotsof different lenses and have
lots of different questions, butat the end of the day, we're
all people and citizens togetherand we believe in each other,
and so we can do it together ifwe do that well for sports and
(40:22):
for history.
Liz Evans (40:25):
That was just like the perfect for this hurry.
I I am inspired, I am baffledby statistics and, as with every
conversation I have with you, Iam a better person afterwards.
Thank you so much for the workyou're doing in philadelphia,
(40:46):
mean nationwide, and for givingus all of this information today
.
I cannot wait to get back toPhilly and to come and
experience this after learningso much with you.
So thank you, thank you, thankyou.
Kerry Saunter (41:03):
Well, thank you guys for the work that you are
doing, because it's an amazingprogram at ASU, and I'm so glad
that you're leading the charge,because you are one of those
people that we always want tomake sure you help us and build
a better system, because you area brilliant teacher and a
fantastic citizen.
So thank you.
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