October 4, 2022 • 34 mins
If you know Anne Marie at all, you know that Halloween is her favorite holiday. Some of you may know that, as a side gig, she is the founder of Silver Queen Walking Tours. By popular demand, she does more ghost tours than straight history tours. So when she discovered this newly released book, A Haunted History of Invisible Women: True Stories of America's Ghosts, by these two amazing women who have first-hand knowledge and experience of the art and mystery behind the ghost tour guide craft, she was sold before cracking the book open.
This non-fiction book is coauthored by actress, playwright, ghost tour guide and award-winning bestselling author Leanna Renee Hieber and Boroughs of the Dead founder Andrea Janes.
“Sorrowful widows, vengeful jezebels, innocent maidens, wronged lovers, even the occasional axe-murderess—America’s female ghosts differ widely in background, class, and circumstance. Yet one thing unites them: their ability to instill fascination and fear long after their deaths. Here are the full stories behind some of the best-known among them, as well as the lesser-known—though no less powerful. Tales whispered in darkness often divulge more about the teller than the subject.”
Their approach to the ghost story differs from most in that they look at the history of these tales and the deeper implications of how we have traditionally framed the spooky campfire stories we love to hear and tell.
Buy the book: A Haunted History of Invisible Women: True Stories of America's Ghosts, bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/p/books/a-haunted-history-of-invisible-women-true-stories-of-america-s-ghosts-leanna-renee-hieber/17787938?ean=9780806541587
Andrea Janes, website: https://boroughsofthedead.com
Twitter: @MacabreNYC
Instagram: @boroughsofthedead
Facebook: Boroughs of the Dead
Leanna Renee Hieber, website: https://www.leannareneehieber.com
Blog: http://leannareneebooks.blogspot.com
Twitter: @Leannarenee
Instagram: @leannareneehieber
Facebook: Leanna Renee Hieber
Silver Queen Walking Tours: https://www.silverqueenwalkingtours.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Anne Marie Cannon (00:00):
Hello, my name is Anne Marie cannon and
I'm the host of armchairhistorians. What's your favorite
history? Each episode beginswith this one question. Our
guests come from all walks oflife, YouTube celebrities,
comedians, historians, evenneighbors from the small
mountain community that I livein. There are people who love
history and get really excitedabout a particular time, place
(00:23):
or person from our distant ornot so distant past. The jumping
off point is the place wherethey became curious that entered
the rabbit hole into discovery,fueled by an unrelenting need to
know more, we look at historythrough the filter of other
people's eyes. I'm surehistorians is a belt and rabbit
(00:44):
production. Stay up to date withus through Twitter, Facebook and
Instagram. Wherever you listento your podcast that is where
you'll find us. I'm Chairhistorians is an independent,
commercial free podcast. Ifyou'd like to support the show
and keep it ad free, you can buyus a cup of coffee through cofee
or you can become a patronthrough Patreon links to both in
(01:04):
the Episode Notes.
Hello fellow armchair historiansand Murray here. If anyone knows
me at all, they know thatHalloween is my favorite
holiday. Some of you may knowthat as a side gig. I'm a
history tour operator who bypopular demand does more ghost
(01:24):
tours than straight historytours. So when I discovered this
newly released book, a hauntedhistory of invisible women, true
stories of America's ghosts bythese two amazing women who have
first hand knowledge andexperience of the art in mystery
behind the ghost tour guidecraft. I was sold before
(01:45):
cracking the book open. Thisnonfiction book is co authored
by actress playwright ghost tourguide and award winning Best
Selling Author Leanna ReneeHieber and burls of the dead
founder Andrea Jaynes. Now thebook covers and I quote,
sorrowful widows, vengefuldesert bells, innocent maidens
(02:06):
wronged lovers, even theoccasional acts murderous.
America's female ghosts differwidely in background, class, and
circumstances. Yet one thingunites them their ability to
instill fascination and farelong after their deaths. Here
are the full stories behind someof the best known among them, as
(02:27):
well as the lesser known, thoughno less powerful. Tales
whispered in darkness oftendivulge more about the teller
than the subjects and quote,their approach to the ghost
story differs from most in thatthey look at the history of
these tales, but also the deeperimplications of how we have
traditionally framed the spookycampfire stories. We love to
(02:51):
hear and Tao. I hope you enjoythis first episode of our
October history in hauntingseries. I will tell you right
from the beginning of theinterview, I had technical audio
issues, I say that near quotes,which I did my best to fix and
post editing, I do my ownediting. And while I'm no audio
(03:14):
engineer, there did seem to belet me just say, more audio
anomalies, unusual. There was alot of static on Andrea's track,
and no matter what we tried,nothing seemed to get it right.
And then in the middle of therecording, inexplicably, Lian
his volume went down. It wasn'tlast on all three of us
(03:34):
conveyors of other worldlystories, as it is not uncommon
for spirits from the beyond tocome through via electronic
digital devices.
Liana and Andrea, welcome toarmchair historians. Thanks for
having us. So glad to be here.
So excited because we are cutsfrom similar cloth, I think. But
(03:57):
um, I like to do specialHalloween month kind of
episodes. And I found you guyssomewhere on the internet and
was really intrigued by thisbook that you're going to be
talking about. So I start eachinterview with the question,
What is your favorite historythat we're going to be talking
about today? Leanna you could gofirst. Oh my gosh, this is like
(04:19):
when we when we are asked whichare is our favorite ghost story.
It's like choosing a child, likea favorite child you're not
supposed to. They're all equallyloving, lovable, right?
Leanna (04:33):
I think for me that the chapter that I was most
concerned about getting correctwas my unfinished business
chapter which is my chapterabout Sarah Winchester and the
Winchester Mystery House. Andthat particular history because
Sarah Winchester has been sokind of maligned by history and
(04:59):
so many historybeen fabricated about her.
That's why I was particularlyconcerned with making sure that
I didn't accidentally perpetuateany of the myths that had been
swirling around her. So I triedto be very clear about what the
myths have been. And about whatas much of her history as we
know, the thing of it is, shewas a very private person. So
(05:19):
there's a lot of things that arein fact, just speculation. But I
went so far as to, to not onlytravel to the Mystery House
specifically for the chapter,and and talk with the guides
there and the house historianthere and did a lot of reading.
But I also went to her grave inNew Haven, Connecticut, and
like, prayed at her grave forher permission for this chapter.
(05:40):
So I was pretty thorough on thatone.
Anne Marie Cannon (05:45):
So what Let's just tell the audience what is
the name of the book again,
Leanna (05:49):
it is a haunted history of invisible women, true stories
of America's ghosts, and it'sseparated into different
sections, with different tropesthat women might fall into in
our various categories. So weAndrea, do you want to pipe in
about your favorite history?
Yeah, I interpreted the questiondifferently. I love it. I love
that because that is the thingI've noticed since I've been
(06:13):
doing these interviews is that,you know, there's no right or
wrong answer. And people havetheir own perspective and world
from which they come. And sothey interpret things in their
own way. And I liked that aboutdoing interviews. So do share.
Oh, okay. So, you know, I readthe question, and I thought, not
of our book, I thought of like,a historical era. And I don't
(06:35):
know why. But so I was like,What is my favorite history? And
I kind of like the in betweenperiod, where it's like a post
Revolutionary War, pre CivilWar. So like, they'll very, very
ladder years of the 18thcentury, early years of the 19th
century, so like, yeah, yourWashington Irving era, you know,
like, like, put me around 1809to 1820. Right up until probably
(06:57):
the 1840s. I find that a veryinteresting period. It's very
transitional. And some, it'svery strange.
Andrea (07:08):
A lot of the institutions that we think of as
being fundamentally Americanhaven't been established yet
fully. And they're growing andthey're struggling. And they're
burgeoning. And they'rechanging. And especially in New
York City, it's a city that'srebuilding, getting back on its
feet after being burned to theground, basically, during the
war. So you have a city that'sreally just coming into its own,
everything's in flux.
Everything's a little weird. Andeverything's just kind of
(07:31):
finding its footing. So it's aninteresting time like,
Jacksonian America is weird tome. So I enjoyed that. In terms
of bringing it back to the book,I enjoyed the bell witch
chapter, because it I think, isthe only one that actually took
place. And I love
Anne Marie Cannon (07:45):
it. I love that in between in the way you
described it very succinctly.
Andrea (07:49):
I was thinking like in terms of, say, the newspaper
industry, right?
Leanna (07:53):
Totally, I just have to say, Andrea's Bell, which
chapter is excellent. So thatwas one of those chapters where
I just sat back, and just was inawe of the power of that chapter
and how she brings very, veryreal discussion of trauma into
that particular chapter, whichis a very, very famous
(08:14):
documented case, but it alsojust has lots of possible
ramifications. I am very excitedfor everyone to read that
chapter.
Anne Marie Cannon (08:20):
I'm excited about the book. I've read some
of it, but not the whole thing.
And I do love your approach.
Leanna. Could you maybe turn upyour volume a little bit? Yeah,
I
Leanna (08:30):
sure can't. Is my input a little bit better at this
point?
Anne Marie Cannon (08:36):
Maybe a little bit louder?
Leanna (08:42):
How about this? Is that better?
Anne Marie Cannon (08:44):
Yeah, I don't know. It's funny, because once
we started talking, your volumewent down, down, maybe turn it
down a little bit, because nowI'm getting
Leanna (08:52):
a little static. Now you're getting Yeah, I was gonna
say I was trying to make surethat I wasn't a tech
Anne Marie Cannon (08:56):
person. And I've tried to perfect this.
Since I
Leanna (09:00):
Yeah, it's tough. It's like, I wonder if it's something
that Riverside is doing? Becauseit's just it's, it is
fluctuating for sure.
Anne Marie Cannon (09:07):
So don't go on it.
Andrea (09:09):
And I will say, in all of our defenses, it could be not
us, because ghosts and tech arenotoriously incompatible. It's
true. And I will say that aroundme.
Anne Marie Cannon (09:24):
I live in a very haunted town. So I And I
have that's a good point. Butyeah, that could be we've had
some occurrences in our house,so yep, same here.
Andrea (09:36):
I do see some text scrolling across my screen now
that just says release me. Idon't know who's typing that.
No, okay.
Anne Marie Cannon (09:45):
Oh, you had me there. You must. Yeah, no,
see.
Leanna (09:49):
That's the thing about Andrea. She speaks with such
authority and then you have tobe like,
Andrea (09:53):
Oh my God. My kid does that too. This morning. She was
explaining to me how electricityworks and it was like all total
BS but she was telling mevery authoritative leader was
like, Oh, you have the gift.
Anne Marie Cannon (10:06):
As you just say it as if it's true shares
this guy. There's a guy in townwho used to do tours and an old
firehouse. And half the shit hesaid was BS, but I'll probably
cut this out. But he said it wassuch authority that I quoted him
and then later found out that,oh, that's not necessarily true.
(10:28):
And then he told me, he said, IfI don't know what they are
talking about, I just say it asif it's true. And I make stuff
up and I'm like, oh, geez,
Leanna (10:37):
you believe it? We do try in our, in our collective
defense about our situationhere. We are trying, we do try
to make sure it's very clear inour book, what is possibly
unsubstantiated? And what is infact, historical records. So we
Anne Marie Cannon (10:56):
begin telling ghost stories I started out
with, because I'm a historygeek. And I started out with the
desire to do walking historytours, you know, talk about the
history of town, and thensomebody in town said, oh, you
should do ghost tours. That's avoid. We don't have that here.
And so I had started collectingall these stories. And, you
(11:17):
know, things that I say in mytour, some people believe. So if
I'm presenting something that isvery questionable, or could be
questioned, they say that'sanother one I use. And, but then
when it comes to history, Idefinitely authoritative and
believe what I'm saying. Soanyways, that's, that's
(11:40):
interesting. I love that youguys do ghost tours? Do you do
history tours to straighthistory?
Andrea (11:46):
Well, the tours that we get, go ahead, Liana.
Leanna (11:50):
I have I have done tours in the past with other companies
that are just just historicalfact. But I didn't enjoy working
with those companies. They'renot as fun.
Anne Marie Cannon (12:04):
I don't know about you, but I'm really into
the stories of the people. Andyou know, what their perceptions
were and from that perspective,so anyways, one of the things
that you said in the book,Andrea, is that that really
spoke to me was in thebeginning, you say, as cultural
(12:27):
critic, Andy sessler writes, andthis really popped out at me,
female ghosts have every bit ofanger that makes living woman
sources affair, but none of therestriction in this way. Ghost
Stories are often photo feministby unleashing a lifetime, a
(12:48):
lifetime's worth of rage andretribution. You say, while it's
easy to dismiss and belittle aliving woman who dares to be
vocally critical or angry, it ismuch harder to silence a ghost.
And there that's the that's theline I was trying to get to. She
has remarkable staying power.
And I was telling Leanna, beforeyou came on, Andrea, that I'm
(13:13):
watching a handmade stale, soconverged and what I do with
ghost tours, talking aboutwomen, and also that show, so
maybe you guys could talk alittle bit more about that.
Andrea (13:26):
Totally. Yeah, I actually just want to speak
really, really quickly tosomething you said before about
history, because all of ourtours are grounded in history.
And I want to quote Liana, here,this is a quote, I like put a
little graphic under it, and Iput it on Instagram. And I want
to put it on our website. Ifyou're cool that telling a ghost
story in combination with aprecise historical location
infuses a dynamic mysticism intowhat is otherwise taken as
(13:48):
historical fact. It gives us astour guides another angle and
perspective by which to considerthe past and present merging
timelines to make figures ofhistory, contemporaneous and
haunting. And I love that solike when people say are your
tours, historical tours or ghosttours and like they're both the
history undergirds the ghosttour and the ghost tour gives us
a new lens through which toappreciate these histories. So
(14:10):
that's like, I think one of myfavorite quotes in the book for
that Andy sighs What are quotes,that's another one people are
going to underline a lot. Thethe ghost does have staying
power, and you can't shut herup. And I think it's one of the
few opportunities that men haveto actually, you know, bypass
any kind of patriarchal socialstructure that can silence them
(14:31):
because none of your earthlylaws apply anymore. So they're
Ironically though thatparticular article that I quote
by Andy sighs that references alot of international ghost
stories, Japanese and otherghost stories. And when I
started researching Americanghost stories, taking that as my
premise, I was excited to findrebellious angry female ghosts.
There were remarkably few. MostAmerican female ghosts are
(14:54):
pretty well behaved and I wassurprised and a little
disappointed because I was like,where are all these vents? For,
you know, I'm thinking about thevegetable Japanese goes to come
back and they're angry. And theyand here I wrote a chapter about
ghostly prostitutes, which is adesignation I use, because I
don't think sex worker can beapplied retroactively. Like,
there was no only fans backthen, like, if you were a sex
(15:15):
worker, you probably were aprostitute. So that's why we use
the old designation. But I wrotethis chapter, I was all jazzed
to write about these prostitutesbecause they don't even like
murdered by their John's andraped and killed and thrown out
of windows. And I was like,they're gonna be mad. And they
weren't. They were like, sexyand fun. And they laughed and
smelled like perfume and leftpearls on pillows. And I was
like, wow, okay. All right. Sothat was an interesting one to
(15:40):
kind of wrap my mind around. AndI think you can see me doing my
mental journal, you know,gyrations as I'm writing the
chapter. I'm like, Okay, somaybe we shouldn't be all like
hand wringing about them. Andmaybe it's okay that they're
enjoying their afterlife. Butalso, it's still a little weird.
And I don't know.
Anne Marie Cannon (15:55):
Leann Leanna has something to say I can see
there's something bubbling up inher mirror is,
Leanna (16:00):
and it's also in how they've been framed by the
tourism industry, because a lotof those stories cannot be
exactly sourced to a specifichistorical lady. So a lot
Andrea (16:15):
of them. Yeah, a lot of them are amalgamations. Yeah,
there's no specific percentage.
And a lot of them are sourcesfor them are tourists,
institutions, hotels, bars, andso on.
Anne Marie Cannon (16:28):
I will say that you have changed. Already,
the way that I'm thinking aboutframing some of my ghosts are
women in my stories that I telland there's one particular woman
who is portrayed as a horriblewoman, you know, she hated her
husband, and she poisoned them.
But I found my stuff. No, Ifound myself stepping back
(16:49):
because I was a social workerfor 10 years. I spend myself
stepping back and thinking,Well, why was she so angry in
life? And why? What was herexperience with men that, and I
never thought about that until Iread those lines that we just
talked about. So I think a lotof it does have to do with how
(17:10):
we frame as Leanne Liana said,how we frame the stories, and I
am already so grateful to bothof you for presenting this idea
to me as in my business, becauseI do try to one of the things I
like to talk about on my tour isin this historical Rocky
Mountain mining town is that wehad a very diverse population
(17:31):
here that nobody talks about,you know, the touristy kind of
places, and I've been trying tokind of uncover that, but I've
neglected my women. And so thankyou for kind of bringing that to
the forefront for me, Iappreciate that.
Andrea (17:47):
And when you find it particularly vengeful, violent,
or you know the line malignantfemale ghost, and you think
about her as a whole woman and awhole person, they say this a
lot about moms, if you see a momlike angry yelling at her kids,
you know, don't judge her say toyourself, Which of her needs are
not being met. You know, anangry mom goes to angry ghost is
a woman whose whose needs werefundamentally unmet, you know,
(18:10):
by the society in which shelived. I haven't seen a
Handmaid's Tale, by the way, Iread the book in high school,
like 20 years ago, I got thegist of it.
Anne Marie Cannon (18:19):
It's really disturbing. I do fast forward a
lot through some of the scenesbecause it's too much for me,
but my daughter has been buggingme to to watch it. And I finally
and I'm a binge eater, so Istarted watching it a couple of
weeks ago, and I'm on this, youknow, binge that I till I get to
the end. So it's disturbing, Iwill tell you that in a lot of
(18:40):
ways. So why don't you both kindof take a stab at telling us
about the book?
Andrea (18:48):
Well, first and foremost, is the greatest book
ever written. Man, how would youdescribe it?
Leanna (18:56):
Yes. It is a curated selection of women's ghost
stories around the country. Andwe're interested in the
intersection of women's historyand ghost stories. So they are
broken down into trope ratherthan by geography. And we tried
(19:21):
to get a range of geographygoing but that wasn't actually
really our main focus, our mainfocus was trying to touch down
on what does the historic whichmean and we have that in
quotations. What does a historicmadwoman and again, very
important that that's inquotations. What is what is your
typical ghost bride or wife ormother? What are the different
(19:45):
tropes by which we might beseparating out these ghosts into
their respective categories? Andthanks to our brilliant editor,
Elizabeth May at Kensington whohelped us structure the book by
trope and I sort of generalpremise behind the stories. So
it was important for us to makesure that each of the sections
(20:07):
had enough meaty, juicy storiesin them, some of which are
absolutely very easilyverifiable historical people.
Other stories are completefabrications, and we break those
things down, or our storiesabout a actual person who was
(20:27):
portraying an absolutefabrication. So there's, there's
lots of layers of of reality andmythmaking, that are having a
conversation. We want this bookto be a prompt. So we're so
grateful that you use this bookalready, as a prompt as a
question, to look at how we inthis business are talking about
(20:52):
people. And yes, we're coming atit from the from the lens of
women, but it also is just thatthat diversity angle, any
marginalized person is going tocome at this with a different
into intersectional reality intothis story of the past and the
present, and our culturalobsession with hauntings. So we
do try I mean, my myintroduction title is
(21:14):
existential questions, becausethat's what I come to everything
with, and we hope we leave youwith a few while being
entertained.
Anne Marie Cannon (21:24):
Yes, yes. And I do love that because it's
totally with the times as far ashow are how are we framing our
historical narratives that is ajourney that we've been as a
culture looking at, and we'll bedoing for a long time. And I
think that I would have neverthought that this would have
(21:47):
opened my eyes as much as it hasalready. Andrea, so tell me
about the tropes, like what arethe tropes that you break your
chapters down to?
Andrea (21:57):
Right. So that was, by the way, the most perfect,
succinct summary, by the way?
For sure. And exactly, Emery,what you added to that is that
yeah, we are rethinking the wayswe view our history. So I'm glad
that this has been part of thatconversation for you. While the
tropes like Lana mentioned,these were the brainchild of our
editor, and when she suggestedorganizing it that way, I was
really thrilled. I was like I'mgonna love working with this
(22:19):
person, because the whole ideaof femininity and gender being
performative and being aconstruction plays into that the
idea that you have these roles,these feminine roles. So you
have maidens and my firstthought was like, alright, made
his mother's crumbs, right? Sowe have maidens. We have
witches, mothers and wives,Jessa bells, mad women in
(22:41):
quotes, and widows andspinsters, and then we have a
fun like outlier paragraph on onfrauds, which I don't think he
can talk about goes withouttalking about frauds and myth
making. So for me, I liked thetropes as an organizational
principle. And also, again, likeI said, keeping in mind the idea
that gender is constructed, andthese roles are performative. So
I thought that worked on acouple of different levels.
Anne Marie Cannon (23:04):
Thank you.
Okay, so, in the book Leanna,you say the thing that surprised
me most about becoming a ghosttour guide, was that I became a
sort of paranormal chaplain, Ifreaking love that. guiding my
own audiences through their ownquestions about the beyond. And
why this really struck me isbecause what I've noticed is so
(23:28):
I started out doing reallythinking I'd be straight history
tours. Honestly, I have had notone sign up for our history tour
this year, I saw the ghosttours. And one of the things
that I always say, and when I'mtalking about this to my group
is, you know, this is a placewhere we can talk about this
stuff. And we can think aboutwhat happens to us where do our
(23:51):
loved ones go? And I neverthought of it in that terms. And
you actually put terms into itfor me. So can you talk a little
bit more about that?
Leanna (24:01):
Yeah. But what I mean by paranormal Chaplain Absolutely,
because in and I just didn'treally realize until I was
leading tours, and literallywalking people through a city,
as if we were on a processional,and the, the church imagery just
kind of struck me because I'mvery, very interested in like
(24:21):
high church mysticism. And Irealized that when people were
coming up to me to tell me theirstories, they were always coming
to me with an energy that feltlike I was about to receive a
confessional because insomewhere in there, they are
worried that I am going to thinkthat they're crazy, even though
(24:41):
the general premise is I'mtelling you ghost stories. So
obviously, you're not in ayou're in a good place. You're,
you know, and yet, and yetpeople were like, Yeah, but
really, though, and so, theamount of times that I get every
single tour, somebody comes upto me and says, What do you
really believe though? I try tobe very open I'm very honest on
my tourism, like I am abeliever. But I believe you
(25:04):
should approach everything witha healthy bit of skepticism
because our imaginations arejust so powerful. And that's a
wonderful thing. But anoveractive imagination is gonna
posit things that aren'tnecessarily there. And I don't
want to lead with that, as asjust oh, this is just creativity
at work. I'm a believer, but I'ma skeptic first and a believer
second, when all everything elseis ruled out, then the
(25:27):
unexplained remains. So peoplecoming to me with their, what do
you think about this? It'sthey're both telling me a story.
They're sharing something. Andthey also are absolutely
bringing to me and laying at myfeet, their fundamental grasp of
mortality. And their fundamentalquestion of the of, Is there
(25:50):
life after death? And can werely on it? And is it something
we can or should grasp? Thoseare big, huge things, and I'm
honored to be in that place withthese people. And every time
they share a story with me, Imake sure that they feel
absolutely, that they have givenme a blessing, that they have
(26:13):
shared this intimate thing withme, that is an inexplicable
thing. And I just tried to bevery real and very warm, and
very accepting with that I'llnever forget, there was this kid
from down south. He was thisyoung, maybe 12 year old boy,
and his father. And towards theend of the tour, I just saw the
(26:33):
father, like nod the kid up towalk with me between sections.
And he just asked me what Ithought about the idea that his
grandma might still be in hisliving room. And I said, Well,
how do you feel about that? Isit good to see her? Because I
don't know what I don't knowwhat these relationships are. I
(26:54):
don't go in presuming anybody'srelationship with the ghost that
they're telling me that they'veseen? And he said, Yeah. And he
just he smiled very warmly, Isaid was, is that a feel like
she's watching out for youmaybe. And he nodded, I said,
well, then that's what that is.
She's just looking out for you.
And that's what you see. Andthat's your memories with her
(27:17):
that are there in that moment.
And just enjoy that. And don'tworry about that being anything
but what it is. But I said,here's what you will have to
worry about. Sometimes there'sgoing to be places and spaces
where that's not going to bewelcome information for some
people. And some people aren'tgoing to know how to take that.
And some people are not going tobelieve you. And I trust you to
know when it's safe to sharethat knowledge and your
(27:42):
experiences. And when it'sbetter to just keep it between
yourself and your loved ones whodo believe you. And that seemed
to land for that kid. BecauseI've definitely been in spaces
where my discussions of mybelief structures are not
necessarily welcome and are notgoing to be heard. So I'm not
gonna push it on anybody. But Ialso don't want this kid to be
(28:02):
made to feel by somebody else iscrazy. And so that the dad just
like, had tears in his eyes, andjust was like, Ah, thank you,
you know, because it just wasone of those things where it's
like, I don't know if they knewhow to talk about it together.
But like, here, I was thisoutside objective person, who
could just be like, I believeyou. But be careful. I said,
(28:23):
you've got a sensitivity. Isaid, and that's, that's a gift.
But like everything, you know,sometimes there's two sides of
that. So that's a good answer.
That was my, that was probablyone of my most and I do
actually, I think I referencedthat in my introduction, because
it was one of the things where Ifelt like, I really felt like
(28:45):
that was a moment where I waslike a pastor fielding a
question from a congregation iswhat that felt like to me.
Anne Marie Cannon (28:51):
You know, I, who would have thought, you
know, ghosts tour guides wouldhave these profound experiences.
There's at least one story thatI can really relate to that
with, but it is it's thatunderlying fundamental thing
about death that we do thinkabout every day, though we're,
you know, taught not to talkabout it, and that it is huge.
(29:15):
People don't know it, but it ishuge. And I really love your
approach to it. Andrea, what areyour thoughts about that?
Leanna (29:22):
But I think that as ghosts or guides, we have a
responsibility to not becavalier about these topics. And
it's a very awkward and fineline to straddle, because ghost
tours primarily perceived asentertainment, I think. And I,
from the very beginnings when Ifirst started doing this job was
always aware of how difficult aposition that put me in, you
(29:43):
know, I was like, my job isliterally to speak ill of the
dead in some cases, you know, togin up their stories for a fact.
And I was like, Well, if we basethis on the premise that a real
person lived and died, and theirghost is still present in some
way. What do we owe them? Spiritin over the years, you know, so
people have accused merepeatedly of sucking the fun
(30:04):
out of ghost tours. But I knowand I was like, Maybe I am,
maybe I should be more fun. As Ikind of stuck to my guns and
continue to offer these likefairly serious minded tours, I
found the response was reallygratifying because people were
looking for that I think peopleare, first of all, there's
always going to be a subset ofperson that's on the tour
(30:24):
because they like local historyand ghost stories are a very fun
way to engage with localhistory. And I love that and I'm
all for it. I'm also of thatmindset. And I think it's great.
And I collect local ghoststories. Everywhere I go, I buy
the books, I go on the tours, Ilove them as very niche local
histories. I think they'rewonderful. There's also another
layer though, and that's where Italk about the responsibility
(30:46):
coming in. Are these ourancestors are these spirits here
in some form. And even if youdon't believe they're here,
literally, metaphorically, theydeserve to be honored. If the
history of this country is onethat has a history of bloodshed,
as every country on Earth is,then these ancestors do deserve
to be honored. And in manycountries on earth, they are
honored. But here sometimesthere's a void in that regard.
(31:09):
And I think people are longingto fill that void, which is why
they respond so profoundly toour tours. And I think also that
nowadays, when the virus came, Iwas worried. The pandemic I
thought would quash a lot ofpeople's desire to go on a ghost
tour, but it did the opposite.
And they became extremelypopular. Because people do want
to talk about death. I thinkpeople are tired of ignoring
(31:29):
death. And America's tendency tonot talk about death, I think is
making people feel depleted andempty. And I think they longed
to discuss it. And they longedto talk about it. And they, they
want to talk about the past. Andyes, there's always going to be
someone on a tour that's like,you're making this political. I
don't like this. And it's like,it's not politics, it's
(31:50):
humanity. And these thingshappened. And I'm not I don't
have an axe to grind. I don'thave an agenda. I'm not going to
hit you with a petition. At theend of the tour. I'm just
telling you what happened. Ithink that there is definitely a
market for a ghost tour thatdoes consider the deeper
implications of our history andour lives, our depth and our
spirits. So I think it's thereand at the same time, yeah,
(32:14):
like, we have fun, we makejokes, it's entertaining. The
stories are amazing and weird,but like, there's room and
people are very receptive. Tothat, that space.
Anne Marie Cannon (32:26):
We're gonna stop here for today. And we'll
pick up next week where we leftoff with Andrea and Leanna in
part two. In the meantime, tofind out more about the book, a
haunted history of invisiblewomen, true stories of America's
ghosts. And to find out moreabout burrows of the dead
(32:46):
history tours, be sure to checkout our episode notes. Thanks
for joining us. Have a greatweek.
Hello, my name is Anne Marie cannon and
I'm the host of armchairhistorians. What's your favorite
history? Each episode beginswith this one question. Our
guests come from all walks oflife, YouTube celebrities,
comedians, historians, evenneighbors from the small
mountain community that I livein. There are people who love
history and get really excitedabout a particular time, place
(00:23):
or person from our distant ornot so distant past. The jumping
off point is the place wherethey became curious that entered
the rabbit hole into discovery,fueled by an unrelenting need to
know more, we look at historythrough the filter of other
people's eyes. I'm surehistorians is a belt and rabbit
(00:44):
production. Stay up to date withus through Twitter, Facebook and
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you'll find us. I'm Chairhistorians is an independent,
commercial free podcast. Ifyou'd like to support the show
and keep it ad free, you can buyus a cup of coffee through cofee
or you can become a patronthrough Patreon links to both in
(01:04):
the Episode Notes.
Hello fellow armchair historiansand Murray here. If anyone knows
me at all, they know thatHalloween is my favorite
holiday. Some of you may knowthat as a side gig. I'm a
history tour operator who bypopular demand does more ghost
(01:24):
tours than straight historytours. So when I discovered this
newly released book, a hauntedhistory of invisible women, true
stories of America's ghosts bythese two amazing women who have
first hand knowledge andexperience of the art in mystery
behind the ghost tour guidecraft. I was sold before
(01:45):
cracking the book open. Thisnonfiction book is co authored
by actress playwright ghost tourguide and award winning Best
Selling Author Leanna ReneeHieber and burls of the dead
founder Andrea Jaynes. Now thebook covers and I quote,
sorrowful widows, vengefuldesert bells, innocent maidens
(02:06):
wronged lovers, even theoccasional acts murderous.
America's female ghosts differwidely in background, class, and
circumstances. Yet one thingunites them their ability to
instill fascination and farelong after their deaths. Here
are the full stories behind someof the best known among them, as
(02:27):
well as the lesser known, thoughno less powerful. Tales
whispered in darkness oftendivulge more about the teller
than the subjects and quote,their approach to the ghost
story differs from most in thatthey look at the history of
these tales, but also the deeperimplications of how we have
traditionally framed the spookycampfire stories. We love to
(02:51):
hear and Tao. I hope you enjoythis first episode of our
October history in hauntingseries. I will tell you right
from the beginning of theinterview, I had technical audio
issues, I say that near quotes,which I did my best to fix and
post editing, I do my ownediting. And while I'm no audio
(03:14):
engineer, there did seem to belet me just say, more audio
anomalies, unusual. There was alot of static on Andrea's track,
and no matter what we tried,nothing seemed to get it right.
And then in the middle of therecording, inexplicably, Lian
his volume went down. It wasn'tlast on all three of us
(03:34):
conveyors of other worldlystories, as it is not uncommon
for spirits from the beyond tocome through via electronic
digital devices.
Liana and Andrea, welcome toarmchair historians. Thanks for
having us. So glad to be here.
So excited because we are cutsfrom similar cloth, I think. But
(03:57):
um, I like to do specialHalloween month kind of
episodes. And I found you guyssomewhere on the internet and
was really intrigued by thisbook that you're going to be
talking about. So I start eachinterview with the question,
What is your favorite historythat we're going to be talking
about today? Leanna you could gofirst. Oh my gosh, this is like
(04:19):
when we when we are asked whichare is our favorite ghost story.
It's like choosing a child, likea favorite child you're not
supposed to. They're all equallyloving, lovable, right?
Leanna (04:33):
I think for me that the chapter that I was most
concerned about getting correctwas my unfinished business
chapter which is my chapterabout Sarah Winchester and the
Winchester Mystery House. Andthat particular history because
Sarah Winchester has been sokind of maligned by history and
(04:59):
so many historybeen fabricated about her.
That's why I was particularlyconcerned with making sure that
I didn't accidentally perpetuateany of the myths that had been
swirling around her. So I triedto be very clear about what the
myths have been. And about whatas much of her history as we
know, the thing of it is, shewas a very private person. So
(05:19):
there's a lot of things that arein fact, just speculation. But I
went so far as to, to not onlytravel to the Mystery House
specifically for the chapter,and and talk with the guides
there and the house historianthere and did a lot of reading.
But I also went to her grave inNew Haven, Connecticut, and
like, prayed at her grave forher permission for this chapter.
(05:40):
So I was pretty thorough on thatone.
Anne Marie Cannon (05:45):
So what Let's just tell the audience what is
the name of the book again,
Leanna (05:49):
it is a haunted history of invisible women, true stories
of America's ghosts, and it'sseparated into different
sections, with different tropesthat women might fall into in
our various categories. So weAndrea, do you want to pipe in
about your favorite history?
Yeah, I interpreted the questiondifferently. I love it. I love
that because that is the thingI've noticed since I've been
(06:13):
doing these interviews is that,you know, there's no right or
wrong answer. And people havetheir own perspective and world
from which they come. And sothey interpret things in their
own way. And I liked that aboutdoing interviews. So do share.
Oh, okay. So, you know, I readthe question, and I thought, not
of our book, I thought of like,a historical era. And I don't
(06:35):
know why. But so I was like,What is my favorite history? And
I kind of like the in betweenperiod, where it's like a post
Revolutionary War, pre CivilWar. So like, they'll very, very
ladder years of the 18thcentury, early years of the 19th
century, so like, yeah, yourWashington Irving era, you know,
like, like, put me around 1809to 1820. Right up until probably
(06:57):
the 1840s. I find that a veryinteresting period. It's very
transitional. And some, it'svery strange.
Andrea (07:08):
A lot of the institutions that we think of as
being fundamentally Americanhaven't been established yet
fully. And they're growing andthey're struggling. And they're
burgeoning. And they'rechanging. And especially in New
York City, it's a city that'srebuilding, getting back on its
feet after being burned to theground, basically, during the
war. So you have a city that'sreally just coming into its own,
everything's in flux.
Everything's a little weird. Andeverything's just kind of
(07:31):
finding its footing. So it's aninteresting time like,
Jacksonian America is weird tome. So I enjoyed that. In terms
of bringing it back to the book,I enjoyed the bell witch
chapter, because it I think, isthe only one that actually took
place. And I love
Anne Marie Cannon (07:45):
it. I love that in between in the way you
described it very succinctly.
Andrea (07:49):
I was thinking like in terms of, say, the newspaper
industry, right?
Leanna (07:53):
Totally, I just have to say, Andrea's Bell, which
chapter is excellent. So thatwas one of those chapters where
I just sat back, and just was inawe of the power of that chapter
and how she brings very, veryreal discussion of trauma into
that particular chapter, whichis a very, very famous
(08:14):
documented case, but it alsojust has lots of possible
ramifications. I am very excitedfor everyone to read that
chapter.
Anne Marie Cannon (08:20):
I'm excited about the book. I've read some
of it, but not the whole thing.
And I do love your approach.
Leanna. Could you maybe turn upyour volume a little bit? Yeah,
I
Leanna (08:30):
sure can't. Is my input a little bit better at this
point?
Anne Marie Cannon (08:36):
Maybe a little bit louder?
Leanna (08:42):
How about this? Is that better?
Anne Marie Cannon (08:44):
Yeah, I don't know. It's funny, because once
we started talking, your volumewent down, down, maybe turn it
down a little bit, because nowI'm getting
Leanna (08:52):
a little static. Now you're getting Yeah, I was gonna
say I was trying to make surethat I wasn't a tech
Anne Marie Cannon (08:56):
person. And I've tried to perfect this.
Since I
Leanna (09:00):
Yeah, it's tough. It's like, I wonder if it's something
that Riverside is doing? Becauseit's just it's, it is
fluctuating for sure.
Anne Marie Cannon (09:07):
So don't go on it.
Andrea (09:09):
And I will say, in all of our defenses, it could be not
us, because ghosts and tech arenotoriously incompatible. It's
true. And I will say that aroundme.
Anne Marie Cannon (09:24):
I live in a very haunted town. So I And I
have that's a good point. Butyeah, that could be we've had
some occurrences in our house,so yep, same here.
Andrea (09:36):
I do see some text scrolling across my screen now
that just says release me. Idon't know who's typing that.
No, okay.
Anne Marie Cannon (09:45):
Oh, you had me there. You must. Yeah, no,
see.
Leanna (09:49):
That's the thing about Andrea. She speaks with such
authority and then you have tobe like,
Andrea (09:53):
Oh my God. My kid does that too. This morning. She was
explaining to me how electricityworks and it was like all total
BS but she was telling mevery authoritative leader was
like, Oh, you have the gift.
Anne Marie Cannon (10:06):
As you just say it as if it's true shares
this guy. There's a guy in townwho used to do tours and an old
firehouse. And half the shit hesaid was BS, but I'll probably
cut this out. But he said it wassuch authority that I quoted him
and then later found out that,oh, that's not necessarily true.
(10:28):
And then he told me, he said, IfI don't know what they are
talking about, I just say it asif it's true. And I make stuff
up and I'm like, oh, geez,
Leanna (10:37):
you believe it? We do try in our, in our collective
defense about our situationhere. We are trying, we do try
to make sure it's very clear inour book, what is possibly
unsubstantiated? And what is infact, historical records. So we
Anne Marie Cannon (10:56):
begin telling ghost stories I started out
with, because I'm a historygeek. And I started out with the
desire to do walking historytours, you know, talk about the
history of town, and thensomebody in town said, oh, you
should do ghost tours. That's avoid. We don't have that here.
And so I had started collectingall these stories. And, you
(11:17):
know, things that I say in mytour, some people believe. So if
I'm presenting something that isvery questionable, or could be
questioned, they say that'sanother one I use. And, but then
when it comes to history, Idefinitely authoritative and
believe what I'm saying. Soanyways, that's, that's
(11:40):
interesting. I love that youguys do ghost tours? Do you do
history tours to straighthistory?
Andrea (11:46):
Well, the tours that we get, go ahead, Liana.
Leanna (11:50):
I have I have done tours in the past with other companies
that are just just historicalfact. But I didn't enjoy working
with those companies. They'renot as fun.
Anne Marie Cannon (12:04):
I don't know about you, but I'm really into
the stories of the people. Andyou know, what their perceptions
were and from that perspective,so anyways, one of the things
that you said in the book,Andrea, is that that really
spoke to me was in thebeginning, you say, as cultural
(12:27):
critic, Andy sessler writes, andthis really popped out at me,
female ghosts have every bit ofanger that makes living woman
sources affair, but none of therestriction in this way. Ghost
Stories are often photo feministby unleashing a lifetime, a
(12:48):
lifetime's worth of rage andretribution. You say, while it's
easy to dismiss and belittle aliving woman who dares to be
vocally critical or angry, it ismuch harder to silence a ghost.
And there that's the that's theline I was trying to get to. She
has remarkable staying power.
And I was telling Leanna, beforeyou came on, Andrea, that I'm
(13:13):
watching a handmade stale, soconverged and what I do with
ghost tours, talking aboutwomen, and also that show, so
maybe you guys could talk alittle bit more about that.
Andrea (13:26):
Totally. Yeah, I actually just want to speak
really, really quickly tosomething you said before about
history, because all of ourtours are grounded in history.
And I want to quote Liana, here,this is a quote, I like put a
little graphic under it, and Iput it on Instagram. And I want
to put it on our website. Ifyou're cool that telling a ghost
story in combination with aprecise historical location
infuses a dynamic mysticism intowhat is otherwise taken as
(13:48):
historical fact. It gives us astour guides another angle and
perspective by which to considerthe past and present merging
timelines to make figures ofhistory, contemporaneous and
haunting. And I love that solike when people say are your
tours, historical tours or ghosttours and like they're both the
history undergirds the ghosttour and the ghost tour gives us
a new lens through which toappreciate these histories. So
(14:10):
that's like, I think one of myfavorite quotes in the book for
that Andy sighs What are quotes,that's another one people are
going to underline a lot. Thethe ghost does have staying
power, and you can't shut herup. And I think it's one of the
few opportunities that men haveto actually, you know, bypass
any kind of patriarchal socialstructure that can silence them
(14:31):
because none of your earthlylaws apply anymore. So they're
Ironically though thatparticular article that I quote
by Andy sighs that references alot of international ghost
stories, Japanese and otherghost stories. And when I
started researching Americanghost stories, taking that as my
premise, I was excited to findrebellious angry female ghosts.
There were remarkably few. MostAmerican female ghosts are
(14:54):
pretty well behaved and I wassurprised and a little
disappointed because I was like,where are all these vents? For,
you know, I'm thinking about thevegetable Japanese goes to come
back and they're angry. And theyand here I wrote a chapter about
ghostly prostitutes, which is adesignation I use, because I
don't think sex worker can beapplied retroactively. Like,
there was no only fans backthen, like, if you were a sex
(15:15):
worker, you probably were aprostitute. So that's why we use
the old designation. But I wrotethis chapter, I was all jazzed
to write about these prostitutesbecause they don't even like
murdered by their John's andraped and killed and thrown out
of windows. And I was like,they're gonna be mad. And they
weren't. They were like, sexyand fun. And they laughed and
smelled like perfume and leftpearls on pillows. And I was
like, wow, okay. All right. Sothat was an interesting one to
(15:40):
kind of wrap my mind around. AndI think you can see me doing my
mental journal, you know,gyrations as I'm writing the
chapter. I'm like, Okay, somaybe we shouldn't be all like
hand wringing about them. Andmaybe it's okay that they're
enjoying their afterlife. Butalso, it's still a little weird.
And I don't know.
Anne Marie Cannon (15:55):
Leann Leanna has something to say I can see
there's something bubbling up inher mirror is,
Leanna (16:00):
and it's also in how they've been framed by the
tourism industry, because a lotof those stories cannot be
exactly sourced to a specifichistorical lady. So a lot
Andrea (16:15):
of them. Yeah, a lot of them are amalgamations. Yeah,
there's no specific percentage.
And a lot of them are sourcesfor them are tourists,
institutions, hotels, bars, andso on.
Anne Marie Cannon (16:28):
I will say that you have changed. Already,
the way that I'm thinking aboutframing some of my ghosts are
women in my stories that I telland there's one particular woman
who is portrayed as a horriblewoman, you know, she hated her
husband, and she poisoned them.
But I found my stuff. No, Ifound myself stepping back
(16:49):
because I was a social workerfor 10 years. I spend myself
stepping back and thinking,Well, why was she so angry in
life? And why? What was herexperience with men that, and I
never thought about that until Iread those lines that we just
talked about. So I think a lotof it does have to do with how
(17:10):
we frame as Leanne Liana said,how we frame the stories, and I
am already so grateful to bothof you for presenting this idea
to me as in my business, becauseI do try to one of the things I
like to talk about on my tour isin this historical Rocky
Mountain mining town is that wehad a very diverse population
(17:31):
here that nobody talks about,you know, the touristy kind of
places, and I've been trying tokind of uncover that, but I've
neglected my women. And so thankyou for kind of bringing that to
the forefront for me, Iappreciate that.
Andrea (17:47):
And when you find it particularly vengeful, violent,
or you know the line malignantfemale ghost, and you think
about her as a whole woman and awhole person, they say this a
lot about moms, if you see a momlike angry yelling at her kids,
you know, don't judge her say toyourself, Which of her needs are
not being met. You know, anangry mom goes to angry ghost is
a woman whose whose needs werefundamentally unmet, you know,
(18:10):
by the society in which shelived. I haven't seen a
Handmaid's Tale, by the way, Iread the book in high school,
like 20 years ago, I got thegist of it.
Anne Marie Cannon (18:19):
It's really disturbing. I do fast forward a
lot through some of the scenesbecause it's too much for me,
but my daughter has been buggingme to to watch it. And I finally
and I'm a binge eater, so Istarted watching it a couple of
weeks ago, and I'm on this, youknow, binge that I till I get to
the end. So it's disturbing, Iwill tell you that in a lot of
(18:40):
ways. So why don't you both kindof take a stab at telling us
about the book?
Andrea (18:48):
Well, first and foremost, is the greatest book
ever written. Man, how would youdescribe it?
Leanna (18:56):
Yes. It is a curated selection of women's ghost
stories around the country. Andwe're interested in the
intersection of women's historyand ghost stories. So they are
broken down into trope ratherthan by geography. And we tried
(19:21):
to get a range of geographygoing but that wasn't actually
really our main focus, our mainfocus was trying to touch down
on what does the historic whichmean and we have that in
quotations. What does a historicmadwoman and again, very
important that that's inquotations. What is what is your
typical ghost bride or wife ormother? What are the different
(19:45):
tropes by which we might beseparating out these ghosts into
their respective categories? Andthanks to our brilliant editor,
Elizabeth May at Kensington whohelped us structure the book by
trope and I sort of generalpremise behind the stories. So
it was important for us to makesure that each of the sections
(20:07):
had enough meaty, juicy storiesin them, some of which are
absolutely very easilyverifiable historical people.
Other stories are completefabrications, and we break those
things down, or our storiesabout a actual person who was
(20:27):
portraying an absolutefabrication. So there's, there's
lots of layers of of reality andmythmaking, that are having a
conversation. We want this bookto be a prompt. So we're so
grateful that you use this bookalready, as a prompt as a
question, to look at how we inthis business are talking about
(20:52):
people. And yes, we're coming atit from the from the lens of
women, but it also is just thatthat diversity angle, any
marginalized person is going tocome at this with a different
into intersectional reality intothis story of the past and the
present, and our culturalobsession with hauntings. So we
do try I mean, my myintroduction title is
(21:14):
existential questions, becausethat's what I come to everything
with, and we hope we leave youwith a few while being
entertained.
Anne Marie Cannon (21:24):
Yes, yes. And I do love that because it's
totally with the times as far ashow are how are we framing our
historical narratives that is ajourney that we've been as a
culture looking at, and we'll bedoing for a long time. And I
think that I would have neverthought that this would have
(21:47):
opened my eyes as much as it hasalready. Andrea, so tell me
about the tropes, like what arethe tropes that you break your
chapters down to?
Andrea (21:57):
Right. So that was, by the way, the most perfect,
succinct summary, by the way?
For sure. And exactly, Emery,what you added to that is that
yeah, we are rethinking the wayswe view our history. So I'm glad
that this has been part of thatconversation for you. While the
tropes like Lana mentioned,these were the brainchild of our
editor, and when she suggestedorganizing it that way, I was
really thrilled. I was like I'mgonna love working with this
(22:19):
person, because the whole ideaof femininity and gender being
performative and being aconstruction plays into that the
idea that you have these roles,these feminine roles. So you
have maidens and my firstthought was like, alright, made
his mother's crumbs, right? Sowe have maidens. We have
witches, mothers and wives,Jessa bells, mad women in
(22:41):
quotes, and widows andspinsters, and then we have a
fun like outlier paragraph on onfrauds, which I don't think he
can talk about goes withouttalking about frauds and myth
making. So for me, I liked thetropes as an organizational
principle. And also, again, likeI said, keeping in mind the idea
that gender is constructed, andthese roles are performative. So
I thought that worked on acouple of different levels.
Anne Marie Cannon (23:04):
Thank you.
Okay, so, in the book Leanna,you say the thing that surprised
me most about becoming a ghosttour guide, was that I became a
sort of paranormal chaplain, Ifreaking love that. guiding my
own audiences through their ownquestions about the beyond. And
why this really struck me isbecause what I've noticed is so
(23:28):
I started out doing reallythinking I'd be straight history
tours. Honestly, I have had notone sign up for our history tour
this year, I saw the ghosttours. And one of the things
that I always say, and when I'mtalking about this to my group
is, you know, this is a placewhere we can talk about this
stuff. And we can think aboutwhat happens to us where do our
(23:51):
loved ones go? And I neverthought of it in that terms. And
you actually put terms into itfor me. So can you talk a little
bit more about that?
Leanna (24:01):
Yeah. But what I mean by paranormal Chaplain Absolutely,
because in and I just didn'treally realize until I was
leading tours, and literallywalking people through a city,
as if we were on a processional,and the, the church imagery just
kind of struck me because I'mvery, very interested in like
(24:21):
high church mysticism. And Irealized that when people were
coming up to me to tell me theirstories, they were always coming
to me with an energy that feltlike I was about to receive a
confessional because insomewhere in there, they are
worried that I am going to thinkthat they're crazy, even though
(24:41):
the general premise is I'mtelling you ghost stories. So
obviously, you're not in ayou're in a good place. You're,
you know, and yet, and yetpeople were like, Yeah, but
really, though, and so, theamount of times that I get every
single tour, somebody comes upto me and says, What do you
really believe though? I try tobe very open I'm very honest on
my tourism, like I am abeliever. But I believe you
(25:04):
should approach everything witha healthy bit of skepticism
because our imaginations arejust so powerful. And that's a
wonderful thing. But anoveractive imagination is gonna
posit things that aren'tnecessarily there. And I don't
want to lead with that, as asjust oh, this is just creativity
at work. I'm a believer, but I'ma skeptic first and a believer
second, when all everything elseis ruled out, then the
(25:27):
unexplained remains. So peoplecoming to me with their, what do
you think about this? It'sthey're both telling me a story.
They're sharing something. Andthey also are absolutely
bringing to me and laying at myfeet, their fundamental grasp of
mortality. And their fundamentalquestion of the of, Is there
(25:50):
life after death? And can werely on it? And is it something
we can or should grasp? Thoseare big, huge things, and I'm
honored to be in that place withthese people. And every time
they share a story with me, Imake sure that they feel
absolutely, that they have givenme a blessing, that they have
(26:13):
shared this intimate thing withme, that is an inexplicable
thing. And I just tried to bevery real and very warm, and
very accepting with that I'llnever forget, there was this kid
from down south. He was thisyoung, maybe 12 year old boy,
and his father. And towards theend of the tour, I just saw the
(26:33):
father, like nod the kid up towalk with me between sections.
And he just asked me what Ithought about the idea that his
grandma might still be in hisliving room. And I said, Well,
how do you feel about that? Isit good to see her? Because I
don't know what I don't knowwhat these relationships are. I
(26:54):
don't go in presuming anybody'srelationship with the ghost that
they're telling me that they'veseen? And he said, Yeah. And he
just he smiled very warmly, Isaid was, is that a feel like
she's watching out for youmaybe. And he nodded, I said,
well, then that's what that is.
She's just looking out for you.
And that's what you see. Andthat's your memories with her
(27:17):
that are there in that moment.
And just enjoy that. And don'tworry about that being anything
but what it is. But I said,here's what you will have to
worry about. Sometimes there'sgoing to be places and spaces
where that's not going to bewelcome information for some
people. And some people aren'tgoing to know how to take that.
And some people are not going tobelieve you. And I trust you to
know when it's safe to sharethat knowledge and your
(27:42):
experiences. And when it'sbetter to just keep it between
yourself and your loved ones whodo believe you. And that seemed
to land for that kid. BecauseI've definitely been in spaces
where my discussions of mybelief structures are not
necessarily welcome and are notgoing to be heard. So I'm not
gonna push it on anybody. But Ialso don't want this kid to be
(28:02):
made to feel by somebody else iscrazy. And so that the dad just
like, had tears in his eyes, andjust was like, Ah, thank you,
you know, because it just wasone of those things where it's
like, I don't know if they knewhow to talk about it together.
But like, here, I was thisoutside objective person, who
could just be like, I believeyou. But be careful. I said,
(28:23):
you've got a sensitivity. Isaid, and that's, that's a gift.
But like everything, you know,sometimes there's two sides of
that. So that's a good answer.
That was my, that was probablyone of my most and I do
actually, I think I referencedthat in my introduction, because
it was one of the things where Ifelt like, I really felt like
(28:45):
that was a moment where I waslike a pastor fielding a
question from a congregation iswhat that felt like to me.
Anne Marie Cannon (28:51):
You know, I, who would have thought, you
know, ghosts tour guides wouldhave these profound experiences.
There's at least one story thatI can really relate to that
with, but it is it's thatunderlying fundamental thing
about death that we do thinkabout every day, though we're,
you know, taught not to talkabout it, and that it is huge.
(29:15):
People don't know it, but it ishuge. And I really love your
approach to it. Andrea, what areyour thoughts about that?
Leanna (29:22):
But I think that as ghosts or guides, we have a
responsibility to not becavalier about these topics. And
it's a very awkward and fineline to straddle, because ghost
tours primarily perceived asentertainment, I think. And I,
from the very beginnings when Ifirst started doing this job was
always aware of how difficult aposition that put me in, you
(29:43):
know, I was like, my job isliterally to speak ill of the
dead in some cases, you know, togin up their stories for a fact.
And I was like, Well, if we basethis on the premise that a real
person lived and died, and theirghost is still present in some
way. What do we owe them? Spiritin over the years, you know, so
people have accused merepeatedly of sucking the fun
(30:04):
out of ghost tours. But I knowand I was like, Maybe I am,
maybe I should be more fun. As Ikind of stuck to my guns and
continue to offer these likefairly serious minded tours, I
found the response was reallygratifying because people were
looking for that I think peopleare, first of all, there's
always going to be a subset ofperson that's on the tour
(30:24):
because they like local historyand ghost stories are a very fun
way to engage with localhistory. And I love that and I'm
all for it. I'm also of thatmindset. And I think it's great.
And I collect local ghoststories. Everywhere I go, I buy
the books, I go on the tours, Ilove them as very niche local
histories. I think they'rewonderful. There's also another
layer though, and that's where Italk about the responsibility
(30:46):
coming in. Are these ourancestors are these spirits here
in some form. And even if youdon't believe they're here,
literally, metaphorically, theydeserve to be honored. If the
history of this country is onethat has a history of bloodshed,
as every country on Earth is,then these ancestors do deserve
to be honored. And in manycountries on earth, they are
honored. But here sometimesthere's a void in that regard.
(31:09):
And I think people are longingto fill that void, which is why
they respond so profoundly toour tours. And I think also that
nowadays, when the virus came, Iwas worried. The pandemic I
thought would quash a lot ofpeople's desire to go on a ghost
tour, but it did the opposite.
And they became extremelypopular. Because people do want
to talk about death. I thinkpeople are tired of ignoring
(31:29):
death. And America's tendency tonot talk about death, I think is
making people feel depleted andempty. And I think they longed
to discuss it. And they longedto talk about it. And they, they
want to talk about the past. Andyes, there's always going to be
someone on a tour that's like,you're making this political. I
don't like this. And it's like,it's not politics, it's
(31:50):
humanity. And these thingshappened. And I'm not I don't
have an axe to grind. I don'thave an agenda. I'm not going to
hit you with a petition. At theend of the tour. I'm just
telling you what happened. Ithink that there is definitely a
market for a ghost tour thatdoes consider the deeper
implications of our history andour lives, our depth and our
spirits. So I think it's thereand at the same time, yeah,
(32:14):
like, we have fun, we makejokes, it's entertaining. The
stories are amazing and weird,but like, there's room and
people are very receptive. Tothat, that space.
Anne Marie Cannon (32:26):
We're gonna stop here for today. And we'll
pick up next week where we leftoff with Andrea and Leanna in
part two. In the meantime, tofind out more about the book, a
haunted history of invisiblewomen, true stories of America's
ghosts. And to find out moreabout burrows of the dead
(32:46):
history tours, be sure to checkout our episode notes. Thanks
for joining us. Have a greatweek.
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