February 8, 2023 • 31 mins
Part 2 of Anne Marie's interview with Anna Borzello about her years foraging along the foreshore for remnants of the lives of everyday people, breadcrumbs that lead to snapshots of the past, bringing into sharper focus the commonplace, for the times, routines of ordinary people. Anna is a crafty historian, able to spin an engaging narrative around each artifact she finds.
In this episode, Anne Marie talks to Anna Borzello. Previously, she worked as the BBC correspondent for Focus in Africa in Uganda from 1995 to 2001. These days you can find Anna on the River Thames foreshore foraging for historical artifacts which tell the story of London’s expansive history.
Anna admittedly plans her life around the river’s tides. Before she commits to doctor’s appointments, lunch dates, fill in the blank, she first consults the tide charts. Low tide wins out every time. It was such a pleasure to talk to Anna about her experiences as a mudlark along the Thames foreshore, and I think you will see why, not only is she well-versed on London’s history, she is absolutely delightful!
Instagram: @foreshoreseashore
Anna Borzello on reporting for Focus: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08njxld
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Anne Marie Cannon (00:07):
Hello fellow armchair historians, Anne Marie
here. Today you get to hear parttwo of my interview with mudlark
Ana Barcelo about her yearsforaging along the foreshore for
remnants of the lives ofeveryday people, breadcrumbs
that lead to snapshots of thepast, bringing into sharper
focus, the common place for thetimes routines of ordinary
(00:32):
people, Ana is a craftyhistorian able to spin an
engaging narrative around eachartifact she finds, you know,
one of the things you've talkedabout, which I think is the
thing, it's that tangibility oftouching the past, and who was
the last person that held thatitem in their hand, and it fell
(00:53):
away from them. And this is thefirst time it's like, it's
almost like being in a timemachine, right like that, to be
able to touch that history andimagine it, and you have a very
good imagination, the way thatyou've drawn out some of, you
know, the ideas about the pins,for example, that was amazing.
You know, it just it does seemlike it takes a special, not a
(01:17):
special but a certain kind ofperson to appreciate that. So
like, I have this great nephew,Finley, who is nine years old,
and he loves the old things. AndI'm like, Thank you, God, for
one child out of all of the, youknow, great nieces and nephews
(01:39):
that I have that he is obsessed,and my daughter, her eyes glaze
over when I start talking aboutthis stuff. So I'm getting to
something I'm not sure what itis. But Are any of your kids
interested in this?
Anna Borzello (01:54):
So my children, when I started my blog, we were
really young. And so at thebeginning, I could brag I had
because I'm a single parent, Icouldn't leave them at home, I
had to bring them with me. So Ibribed them, then they do it for
a doughnut when they were likeeight, you know, that was really
easy, I could get away with alot, then it went up to sort of
pizzas, then Lego box sets, theyactually had to cash pay them to
(02:18):
come with me. And now we're atthis time where they can
actually stay at home. And alsothey have friends and their
friends come round. And if theya lot of their friends love my
malarkey objects and want toknow more about them, and offer
I can entice my children to comeout with me if their friends
come along, too. But I thinkthere's there are different ways
to appreciate my blockingobjects. You know, I appreciate
(02:42):
the way they make me connectwith the past. I know that other
people who appreciate thembecause of the way they look or
how they're made, you know, whoappreciate the the methods of
production of pottery over time,for example. So there are
different ways of connectingwith these objects that you find
mud locking. There's another waythat I connect, which which I
always find peculiar, but itreally brings things alive for
(03:04):
me, which is whenever I pick upsmashed pottery, I imagine I
imagine someone's throwing itagainst a wall in a shouting
match. And for some reason, itmakes me think about anger
people in the past havingemotions, or you find rings, for
example, that have been lost orcufflinks. cufflinks are always
falling out of gentleman sleevesin the 18th century. And every
(03:27):
time I find a cufflink, I hearthem swearing when they get
home. Again, and I don't knowwhy but there's something about
those petty everyday emotionsmuch more than the sort of grand
emotions of battle that reallymake me connect. And that is
something that mud locking hasbrought for me i you actually
(03:49):
hear the Irit feel theirritation in my own body. And
also, I think it's interestingto think about the traces that
we're leaving behind, and whatthe modern day rubbish says
about us, you know, how willother people read us and read
our history. So for example, onthe foreshore, there's a lot of
plastic, you know, and I oftenthink there's a lot of Tampax
(04:11):
applicators, you know, tamponapplicators, which are obviously
really unpleasant. But at thesame time, I'm really aware that
if I found one of those in 200years time, I think it was the
most fascinating Oh, my Goodnessme. This is what they did in the
21st century. I can't believeit. So I find that I try to I'm
(04:31):
trying to approach the world inthat way to make the rubbish
seamless, disgusting. And Ialways pick up children's
plastic toys as well. There's aparticular spot where they
always wash up. And there'ssomething about those toys and
how they connect with the littletoys that I found from the past
and little tiny children's platemade out of pewter, for example,
(04:52):
these little toys that make yourealize that there were children
who were loved by their motherswho were given little to toys to
play with. And they were therein the past. And they're there
now that we have, where we have,we have there's a continuity of
feeling and emotion between usall.
Anne Marie Cannon (05:09):
Yeah. That's amazing.
Anna Borzello (05:13):
So I know that you're very interested in me
finding objects that will tell aparticular story and connect to
particular people. Now, a lot ofthe objects I find, are older.
So if you get to Victoriantimes, they're more likely to be
inscribed with someone's name,or in the 20th, early 20th
century, like a dog tag, forexample, much easier to trace. A
(05:34):
lot of these older objects areharder to connect to
individuals, except for thetraders tokens I've mentioned
before, which will give the nameof a shop and a shopkeeper. And
through that you can ofteninvestigate their whole life.
And when I've tried toinvestigate really modern
objects and got nowhere I foundthis elite watch recently that
(05:54):
had only been lost about sixyears ago and tried to what I
wanted to find out why it was inthe tabs. You know, it was a
story of how it ended up there.
You know, how did things end upin the water, I imagined it was
something nefarious, I gotnowhere at all, despite ringing
absolutely everybody and writingto the watch manufacturer,
because it was a limited, alimited edition watch. But I can
understand the image, there issomething you know, really
(06:17):
exciting about being able toattach an object to a person,
and to follow it on its journey.
But when they're just anonymousobjects, they still have this
life of their own, as I'vedescribed.
Anne Marie Cannon (06:32):
So I've also seen you in videos where you go
to bottle dumps. So you don'tjust you don't just mudlark
Anna Borzello (06:44):
bottle digging is really well bottled it is quite
interesting. Just because thewhole notion of there being this
massive population explosion anddisposable goods in the 19th
century, and people having todecide, you know, how do we get
rid of all this waste, andparticularly in London with all
these people, you know, havingto ship the waste elsewhere. And
(07:06):
often the waste went to a brickmakers because most of it was
made up of ash. And so the brickmakers and took on the job of
getting rid of the rubbish sothat they could use the ash to
make the bricks and you'll oftenfind old kind of bottle dumps
near old brick works. So thereis something exciting about
finding some of these bottles.
And there is something alwaysexciting about unearthing
(07:28):
treasure. For me personally, Ilove being near water. And
there's something about thejumbled up pneus of the Thames,
where Roman artifacts can existnext to artifacts that were lost
1500 years later, that I findreally exciting in a way that
(07:50):
the dump doesn't quite move me.
I mean, it's lovely to be outwith friends looking for these
objects, but the Earth doesn'texcite me as much as the water.
However, I do like looking forsea glass. Because I mean, this
seems to be such a nicheinterest, once you get the
cigar. So you know the cigarshas come from a nearby bottle
(08:13):
making factory that was up inthe late Victorian times, you
can then spend quite some timetrying to connect the little
tiny bits of colored glass to aparticular type of bottle. Yes,
this was a poisoned bottle. Imean, sometimes I think I can't
believe I'm doing this. Butthere's a certain pleasure to be
had in that just that matchingof this little object to these
bottles. But yes, I find thenotion of all this excess trash
(08:39):
generated by all these Londonersat this time of industrial
expansion quite interesting.
Anne Marie Cannon (08:46):
I gather up things wherever I go, like I'm
apparently a natural mud Lurkerbecause I'm always looking in
the dirt and finding things. Ilive in a National Historic
Landmark District in Colorado.
And I mean, our history heregoes back to you know, the 1850s
and so I'm always picking uplike broken bits of glass and
(09:07):
pottery, and I've always admiredlike when I watched Nicola
White's YouTube videos, how shehas all her things around her.
And what you just showed me likeI'm obsessed with your shelf
that you were showing me so thispast Christmas, my boyfriend and
I we have this old family curiocabinet and we moved it upstairs
(09:30):
and I finally have my shelf thatI have all those little things
that I find in it. And it justit's a weird thing. It makes me
feel complete. When people comeinto my house, they look at it.
And I've always said about mypodcast is sad. You know, I do
believe that history is thetouchstone to meaning a
(09:51):
meaningful conversation. Andthat's why like my blogs, I love
talking to my blogs. because youintuitively get that. And
there's so much to learn and totalk about it is a rabbit hole
of history that, like you said,you bring something home and
it's, there's this item and youlearn about it. And then you end
(10:12):
up learning about a bunch ofother things that might not have
to do with that item. You know,like false teeth from 200 years
ago, I get why you do what youdo. And I love it. And I love
that you are so willing to shareit with my audience. Thank you.
Is there any questions that Ididn't ask you that you want to
(10:32):
talk about
Anna Borzello (10:35):
that other categories of objects that I
just find fascinating because ofwhat they've told me about the
past, for example, and I'mshowing you here on my on my
screen, actually, butunfortunately, listeners, you
can't see it. It's a littletiny, tin glaze pot from the
17th century, very small, and Ifound it on a very low tide. And
(10:56):
what it is, is an apothecarypot. So it's a little jar that
was used by basically chemistsin the late 17th century to give
treatments to people of themiddling class. So if you were
poor, you couldn't afford thissort of treatment, you went to
something called a cunning manor woman, as essentially a
(11:18):
traditional healer or witchdoctor, you go for a spell. So a
real treatment from anapothecary would have been put
in this pot. And I was reallyfascinated, I thought, oh, look
and find out what apothecariesdid. And I was very, in
particular, interested by theiringredients. And what I
discovered was they had thesemost marvelous ingredients. They
(11:38):
had things like sparrows, brain,and lion fat. And then there was
a whole craze for a very longtime for something called
Mamiya. Which is actuallydesiccated mummy, as in Egyptian
mummy. And they apparently hadall these incredible properties.
(11:59):
It could cure tuberculosis,everybody wanted it. And I find
that really interesting becauseit made me realize that people
in that era were quitecosmopolitan, you know, you
think of people in the past aresort of huddling around not
having a notion of the outsideworld. But actually, they knew
about Egyptian mummies. Theyknew that they existed, they
(12:19):
knew that they had these magicalpowers that could transform your
health. And at about the timethat this pot was made, which
is, as I said, late 1600s, thatapparently, Mumia had fallen
into disrepute, because somepeople were actually a
desiccating, body, other sortsof bodies, and passing it off as
(12:40):
Egyptian mummies. And so in theend, people thought the meal,
you know, because it was toorisky to take because it wasn't
a real object. Eventually,pharmacists, apothecary stopped
using it. But I just felt thatwas just extraordinary that from
that little object, you got aview of the kind of objects that
were coming into people's livesin this sort of extraordinary
(13:02):
cosmopolitan worldview that theymight have had.
Anne Marie Cannon (13:05):
That is amazing. That's a lovely little
pot to
Anna Borzello (13:09):
taste a lovely little pot to I mean, there's
lots all the objects are likethat they all spark these sort
of extraordinary stories, evensomething very humble like this,
this little green tops, it looksa little kind of green bit of
pottery would fit on the end ofmy thumb, it's got like a little
nipple on top. What's that youthink when you find it for the
first time, what it actually is,is a top of a Tudor money box.
(13:33):
And they were used in thetheatres on the south bank of
the river, at the end of the1500s, the beginning of the
1600s to collect money for allthose shows, like Shakespeare's
Globe, you know, it could havebeen a pot from a Shakespeare
play, and people will go in andthey put their penny into the
slot of this box. At the end ofthe day, the pot was smashed.
(13:55):
And then the money was pocketedby the by the box office. And I
think that's, that's why there'sso many of them on the
foreshore. But you think mygoodness me, and then through
that, you realize that actually,for a long time, all the sinful
occupations were on the southbank of the river, people had to
cross the river to get that, youknow, sin was in a specially
confined area. And I found thatquite interesting because when I
(14:16):
used to live in Nigeria, Iremember going to the north once
and there was a sort of sinfulChristian area actually. And
that was also cordoned off fromthe rest of the Surya run part
of the city. So I find it justamazing sort of parallel to
think that there was thiscordoned off world 400 years ago
in London.
Anne Marie Cannon (14:35):
I love where you you bring the conversation
and I love your enthusiasm, andI'm hearing it in sound bites,
so I'm really excited aboutthat. I don't know I'm jealous
because you get to live thatlife. Like if I had a life to
live, it would be being obsessedwith the tide and going to the
foreshore. I'm coming in May. SoI'm coming in May at the end of
(14:58):
May the beginning of June. and Idon't get to really think about,
well, when's the best time ofyear to come? When's the tide
going to be this or that or theother? And I imagine over time,
you just intuitively get a senseof when the best times to go,
are there different places togo, that you feel are better at
(15:18):
certain times to find things, orhow do you decide where you're
gonna go on the foreshore?
Anna Borzello (15:26):
Well, now, a lot of it has to do with because
there's more people going on theforeshore and I prefer it when
there's less people, I tend,where I go, often is often
directed by how poppin I think aparticular site might be at that
time of day, that determineswhere I go. And then there spots
I think, a good to look at whenthe tide is very low. Because I
(15:46):
think there might be areas inthe exposed mud with the rarely
exposed mud. And there are otherareas when I know that you might
find stuff sort of up the backwall, you know, thrown up
amongst a shingle. So that sortof that sort of other
considerations that I make whenI decide where to go. And also
sometimes it's just random, youthink, maybe I'll go to IKEA and
(16:07):
stop off on the foreshore on theway, it's on the way. It's all
that route.
Anne Marie Cannon (16:13):
So you asked me what do I do for a living?
Obviously, my blogging is yourhobby or passion? Do you have a
vocation that you do aside frommy blogging? And how do you fit
all that together?
Anna Borzello (16:27):
No, I did for a very long time. So I was a
journalist for a long time. Iwas a, as I mentioned, as a
foreign correspondent in Africafor a very long time, which was
a really wonderful job. But formost of the time, when I'm not
mad larking, I am a full timeparent. At the moment.
Hopefully, I'll go back tojournalism one day, because I
very much love it.
Anne Marie Cannon (16:49):
Interests interesting. What do you do with
your objects when you bring themhome?
Anna Borzello (16:55):
I clean them, which is a really tedious and
filthy process, it really annoysthe children. They say please
don't do it in the kitchen sink,please don't do it in the
kitchen, they begged merepeatedly, it's really hard not
to do it in the kitchen. Becauseit's so convenient. I dump stuff
in the garden and eventually getaround to cleaning it. And then
I thought it and the things thatI decided to keep and not
(17:17):
returned to the foreshore. WhenI renovated my kitchen, I
actually renovated the wholekitchen around shells, which I
had specially built, just so Icould display my fines. And so I
sought those objects onto thoseshelves. And I know that other
mud locks have other ways of ofdisplaying their objects at
home. The pullout drawers fromthe old Victorian cabinets are
(17:39):
very popular. Some peopleunfortunately, unfortunately for
them, they come to my house andthey're terribly jealous, I've
got my finds out because theirpartners won't allow them to
have their objects on display.
Because I think they just thinkthis is honestly why would I
want a load of bottles from arubbish tub in my kitchen is
what I think they feel. And whenthey come to my house, I've seen
a couple of people who look kindof so woeful, and then look at
(18:01):
my shelves, if only I could havemy stuff out. But they're not
allowed to you by their partner.
So I think all of us havedifferent ways of sorting and
keeping our fines and somepeople are very, very selective.
They like to keep it terriblysmall. And you'd like they'd
like to keep only the mostperfect things. And other people
like to have this sort ofexpensive collection that they
(18:23):
feel better reflects theforeshore. So I think I'm
somewhere in the middle. Okay,
Anne Marie Cannon (18:27):
I was gonna ask you. So do you have displays
throughout your house or just inyour kitchen?
Anna Borzello (18:34):
I only have that display. I'm trying to be
somewhat selective. I have findscattered around the house. But
my my main display is in mykitchen and I do judge people
when they come in. If someonecomes in and they don't notice
my display, I think why did youdisplay? I used to be exactly
the same. I used to feel thatway about books. If people came
(18:54):
into my house. Well, I used tohave many more books than I do
now. And they didn't look at mybooks. I think well, why don't
you look at your books. Whydon't you want to know what I've
got to read? And so yeah, I canbe a little bit judgmental like
that. So I get thrilled when thechildren bring their friends
around. And the friends thatgravitate towards my towards my
finds always get extra pointsthere
Anne Marie Cannon (19:14):
keepers for friends that I love that. Well
that's like my nephew Finleywho, like I said, He's nine
years old, and he is obsessed byhis collections of coins and,
you know, toys that he's foundmetal detecting. And just, he's
(19:35):
exactly how you describedyourself. That's exactly what he
does. He he collects them andthen he organizes them. And then
he pulls them out and whenpeople come to visit and he
likes to talk about his thingsand kindred spirits, I totally
get it. So over the years you'veamassed this collection, and not
(19:55):
only that you've amassed thisknowledge of these items in the
He's histories. And then withyour imagination, you've taken
it to another place, which Ireally connect with. So what do
you do? Aside from collecting?
How do you share this knowledgein this history with other
people.
Anna Borzello (20:18):
So, there's a really big community of mud
locks on Instagram. And it's areally big and very supportive
community. So people tend topost and then add to each
other's knowledge and share. Andthat's been really interesting
also on Twitter and Facebook,but Instagram has been the been
the main focus. So that that'sone one way that I share what I
(20:40):
find, but also in the last threeyears have been these wonderful
exhibitions by mudlark incentral London during the Thames
festival. So the first one wasin 2019. And then there was
another one it skipped a yearbecause of locked down, there
was one in 2021 and 2022. Andthe last one was brilliant. We
(21:00):
had an exhibition of our findsin the Guild Hall in London, St.
Paul's Cathedral, the NationalMaritime Museum. And it's
organized by Jason Sandy, thelast one who you had on your
podcast. So I've exhibited allof those. And my friend who is a
lecturer in computational artsdesign with this rather magical
(21:21):
machine, it's called a magicalMcLaughlan machine, where you
can virtually mudlark, you putyour hand inside, and it appears
as if you're holding this objectin your hand. And it's a way of
people to connect with theobject. And after they put their
hand in, they often want to knowmore about it. And then that's a
way of entering into my display.
And I've particularly I'venoticed that children love it.
(21:42):
Interestingly, neurodivergentchildren really, really love it.
And actually, a teacher from aspecialist school for autistic
children asked me and my friendto take our magical McLaughlin
machine along to his school andtry it out on the kids there.
And they were really, reallykeen. It was fascinating. And I
said to the kids afterwards, howdid you find that and they sort
(22:05):
of, I can't speak for theneurotypical people. But for us,
it was absolutely wonderful,which I thought was brilliant.
And I think there's somethingabout the immediacy of this, of
these objects, and also handlingthe objects because you pass
around amongst the students. Andit's been a way for them to
connect with history and areally manageable portion. It's
(22:26):
not abstract. It's not likehistory was when I was at
school, and it was just thisremote thing. It's something
that comes up very close. AndI've been to a few schools now.
And it's always been extremelywell received. And I hope to do
more of it. Because there'ssomething so exciting about
children's faces when they getinterested, and they want to
(22:48):
know more, and they find thestories entertaining. And if you
throw in a bit of poo, which isquite easy when you're talking
about the terms, you always getthem engaged. So I was showing a
little bit of poo story. And thething with a little bit
something disgusting, somethinga little bit gruesome,
something, you know, somethingthat makes so go, Oh, that's so
revolting, you know, lice or pooor something yucky?
Anne Marie Cannon (23:12):
Is there a place we can go and look at
your, like a video of yourmudlark machine?
Anna Borzello (23:18):
Oh, I think that it probably if you scroll back
to Instagram, there is one Ithink it would have been last
year sometime in 2021. I thinkthere's a video on there. Okay,
maybe I'll try and redo anotherone at some point.
Anne Marie Cannon (23:32):
All right, I'm writing this down, because I
link out Why do you think thatso many people have become
interested in mud larking?
Anna Borzello (23:42):
I think one really boring reason is that it
was has been presented as anopportunity in the past few
years. So I think there's awhole generation of people who
stumbled upon my blockingthemselves. And then from about
2018, there had been a couple ofbooks produced. And that
generated quite a lot ofpublicity, and news articles and
(24:05):
TV programs. So I think thenpeople realized that it was
something that you could do, andthat gave permission to do it as
well. And that's encouraged verymany more people to go down to
the foreshore. It seems hard toimagine. But actually,
previously, even when I startedmy blocking, people didn't
really realize you could go downto the foreshore if you went to
(24:26):
the South Bank, there will benobody down on the river at all.
It was completely empty. And Iremember at the beginning, when
I opened the gate, Creek openand I'd walk down the steps,
people would stop and stare, andthey'd shout, what are you doing
down there? What are you doing?
And now it's become so popularthat they're shouting, what have
you found because everybodyknows about mud locking? I mean,
(24:47):
literally when I started, nobodyknew and that's not very long
ago. So I think that's the kindof boring reason why it's become
popular. But the reason why itsees people's imagination is
because It's a magical thing.
We're in the middle of a hugeinternational city. And yet
right in the heart of that city,scattered on the ground, are all
(25:10):
these incredible relics from thepast, to tell you stories about
the past, and which anybody canaccess, it's like crazy. It's
like a museum has exploded inthe middle of London. And
someone said, You go low downand sort of loot it. I mean, I
don't loot is probably the wrongword. Because of course, you're
recording all your fines, andyou're not stealing it, you're
not profiting from it. But it isthat kind of heady feeling. I
(25:33):
can't believe this stuff's here.
And I can pick it up. And Ithink that's why but also, the
actual act of mud locking, isquite meditative. I mean, that's
why I really loved it at thebeginning, you're down there by
yourself, by the water, there'sthe sound of the water in the
middle of the city there thesound of gold, I'm really have a
little bit of a thing aboutseagulls, I really loved them, I
(25:53):
spent a lot of time takingphotographs of them. And you're
down there in this magical quietspace, just searching. And you
never know what the lucky dip ofthe foreshore is going to throw
up. So there's this wonderfulsort of random quality, you'll
never know what you get. Andthen as more people have joined,
there's been more of a communityevolving. And actually, people
(26:16):
come from all sorts of differentwalks of life. And yet we have a
common interest. And I have evensomeone as antisocial as myself,
has made many friends. I'msurprised how many friends I've
made, whose company I enjoy. Wejust went to a mother walking
social pub meet recently and allsat together and chatted about
(26:36):
our shared interests. It's areally brilliant pastime based
on this magical premise thattreasure lies for all of the
city.
Anne Marie Cannon (26:54):
It's interesting, because there's
people that I know from the UKthat I've said, My barking and
they don't know what it is, oreven from London. And then I get
to tell them, which I alwaysappreciate that launch into
telling what my knowledge isabout, you know, the Thames and
the tidal River and all thosethings. And the thing I really
(27:18):
like about how it appearsanyways, is that that community,
there isn't a sense ofcompetition. There's just a
sense of passion, a mutualpassion, and desire to learn
more through other people'sexperiences. And obviously, it's
an opportunity to talk aboutwhat, what we've learned, right?
(27:42):
And it just, I love that energy.
And I think that's part of thedynamic that makes it so
compelling. When I go to YouTubeor Instagram and participate in
the groups, it's that sense ofthat shared interest in
connecting to the past and Ilove that I just, it's basic, I
(28:05):
love it. And I love that you areso passionate like I said
already in the the way you'veshared your knowledge and your
experiences. I really appreciatethat.
Anna Borzello (28:20):
Well thank you.
It's been very enjoyable talkingto you,
Anne Marie Cannon (28:23):
Anna Brazil.
Oh, thank you so much for beinghere. I have really enjoyed
talking to you and seeing yourcollections.
Anna Borzello (28:32):
Thank you so much. Thank you for coming.
Thank you for appreciating mycollection that's very
important. was lovely to talk toyou and to meet you.
Anne Marie Cannon (28:43):
There you have it on up or Zelo mudlark
and crafty historian. To findout more about mud larking and
Ana, be sure to check out ourepisode notes. Thanks for
joining us have a great week.
armchair historians is producedby Belgian rabbit productions
hosted by Anne Marie cannonmusic this week is strings by
(29:04):
gold Tiger sound editing anddesigned by Anne Marie cannon
Hello fellow armchair historians, Anne Marie
here. Today you get to hear parttwo of my interview with mudlark
Ana Barcelo about her yearsforaging along the foreshore for
remnants of the lives ofeveryday people, breadcrumbs
that lead to snapshots of thepast, bringing into sharper
focus, the common place for thetimes routines of ordinary
(00:32):
people, Ana is a craftyhistorian able to spin an
engaging narrative around eachartifact she finds, you know,
one of the things you've talkedabout, which I think is the
thing, it's that tangibility oftouching the past, and who was
the last person that held thatitem in their hand, and it fell
(00:53):
away from them. And this is thefirst time it's like, it's
almost like being in a timemachine, right like that, to be
able to touch that history andimagine it, and you have a very
good imagination, the way thatyou've drawn out some of, you
know, the ideas about the pins,for example, that was amazing.
You know, it just it does seemlike it takes a special, not a
(01:17):
special but a certain kind ofperson to appreciate that. So
like, I have this great nephew,Finley, who is nine years old,
and he loves the old things. AndI'm like, Thank you, God, for
one child out of all of the, youknow, great nieces and nephews
(01:39):
that I have that he is obsessed,and my daughter, her eyes glaze
over when I start talking aboutthis stuff. So I'm getting to
something I'm not sure what itis. But Are any of your kids
interested in this?
Anna Borzello (01:54):
So my children, when I started my blog, we were
really young. And so at thebeginning, I could brag I had
because I'm a single parent, Icouldn't leave them at home, I
had to bring them with me. So Ibribed them, then they do it for
a doughnut when they were likeeight, you know, that was really
easy, I could get away with alot, then it went up to sort of
pizzas, then Lego box sets, theyactually had to cash pay them to
(02:18):
come with me. And now we're atthis time where they can
actually stay at home. And alsothey have friends and their
friends come round. And if theya lot of their friends love my
malarkey objects and want toknow more about them, and offer
I can entice my children to comeout with me if their friends
come along, too. But I thinkthere's there are different ways
to appreciate my blockingobjects. You know, I appreciate
(02:42):
the way they make me connectwith the past. I know that other
people who appreciate thembecause of the way they look or
how they're made, you know, whoappreciate the the methods of
production of pottery over time,for example. So there are
different ways of connectingwith these objects that you find
mud locking. There's another waythat I connect, which which I
always find peculiar, but itreally brings things alive for
(03:04):
me, which is whenever I pick upsmashed pottery, I imagine I
imagine someone's throwing itagainst a wall in a shouting
match. And for some reason, itmakes me think about anger
people in the past havingemotions, or you find rings, for
example, that have been lost orcufflinks. cufflinks are always
falling out of gentleman sleevesin the 18th century. And every
(03:27):
time I find a cufflink, I hearthem swearing when they get
home. Again, and I don't knowwhy but there's something about
those petty everyday emotionsmuch more than the sort of grand
emotions of battle that reallymake me connect. And that is
something that mud locking hasbrought for me i you actually
(03:49):
hear the Irit feel theirritation in my own body. And
also, I think it's interestingto think about the traces that
we're leaving behind, and whatthe modern day rubbish says
about us, you know, how willother people read us and read
our history. So for example, onthe foreshore, there's a lot of
plastic, you know, and I oftenthink there's a lot of Tampax
(04:11):
applicators, you know, tamponapplicators, which are obviously
really unpleasant. But at thesame time, I'm really aware that
if I found one of those in 200years time, I think it was the
most fascinating Oh, my Goodnessme. This is what they did in the
21st century. I can't believeit. So I find that I try to I'm
(04:31):
trying to approach the world inthat way to make the rubbish
seamless, disgusting. And Ialways pick up children's
plastic toys as well. There's aparticular spot where they
always wash up. And there'ssomething about those toys and
how they connect with the littletoys that I found from the past
and little tiny children's platemade out of pewter, for example,
(04:52):
these little toys that make yourealize that there were children
who were loved by their motherswho were given little to toys to
play with. And they were therein the past. And they're there
now that we have, where we have,we have there's a continuity of
feeling and emotion between usall.
Anne Marie Cannon (05:09):
Yeah. That's amazing.
Anna Borzello (05:13):
So I know that you're very interested in me
finding objects that will tell aparticular story and connect to
particular people. Now, a lot ofthe objects I find, are older.
So if you get to Victoriantimes, they're more likely to be
inscribed with someone's name,or in the 20th, early 20th
century, like a dog tag, forexample, much easier to trace. A
(05:34):
lot of these older objects areharder to connect to
individuals, except for thetraders tokens I've mentioned
before, which will give the nameof a shop and a shopkeeper. And
through that you can ofteninvestigate their whole life.
And when I've tried toinvestigate really modern
objects and got nowhere I foundthis elite watch recently that
(05:54):
had only been lost about sixyears ago and tried to what I
wanted to find out why it was inthe tabs. You know, it was a
story of how it ended up there.
You know, how did things end upin the water, I imagined it was
something nefarious, I gotnowhere at all, despite ringing
absolutely everybody and writingto the watch manufacturer,
because it was a limited, alimited edition watch. But I can
understand the image, there issomething you know, really
(06:17):
exciting about being able toattach an object to a person,
and to follow it on its journey.
But when they're just anonymousobjects, they still have this
life of their own, as I'vedescribed.
Anne Marie Cannon (06:32):
So I've also seen you in videos where you go
to bottle dumps. So you don'tjust you don't just mudlark
Anna Borzello (06:44):
bottle digging is really well bottled it is quite
interesting. Just because thewhole notion of there being this
massive population explosion anddisposable goods in the 19th
century, and people having todecide, you know, how do we get
rid of all this waste, andparticularly in London with all
these people, you know, havingto ship the waste elsewhere. And
(07:06):
often the waste went to a brickmakers because most of it was
made up of ash. And so the brickmakers and took on the job of
getting rid of the rubbish sothat they could use the ash to
make the bricks and you'll oftenfind old kind of bottle dumps
near old brick works. So thereis something exciting about
finding some of these bottles.
And there is something alwaysexciting about unearthing
(07:28):
treasure. For me personally, Ilove being near water. And
there's something about thejumbled up pneus of the Thames,
where Roman artifacts can existnext to artifacts that were lost
1500 years later, that I findreally exciting in a way that
(07:50):
the dump doesn't quite move me.
I mean, it's lovely to be outwith friends looking for these
objects, but the Earth doesn'texcite me as much as the water.
However, I do like looking forsea glass. Because I mean, this
seems to be such a nicheinterest, once you get the
cigar. So you know the cigarshas come from a nearby bottle
(08:13):
making factory that was up inthe late Victorian times, you
can then spend quite some timetrying to connect the little
tiny bits of colored glass to aparticular type of bottle. Yes,
this was a poisoned bottle. Imean, sometimes I think I can't
believe I'm doing this. Butthere's a certain pleasure to be
had in that just that matchingof this little object to these
bottles. But yes, I find thenotion of all this excess trash
(08:39):
generated by all these Londonersat this time of industrial
expansion quite interesting.
Anne Marie Cannon (08:46):
I gather up things wherever I go, like I'm
apparently a natural mud Lurkerbecause I'm always looking in
the dirt and finding things. Ilive in a National Historic
Landmark District in Colorado.
And I mean, our history heregoes back to you know, the 1850s
and so I'm always picking uplike broken bits of glass and
(09:07):
pottery, and I've always admiredlike when I watched Nicola
White's YouTube videos, how shehas all her things around her.
And what you just showed me likeI'm obsessed with your shelf
that you were showing me so thispast Christmas, my boyfriend and
I we have this old family curiocabinet and we moved it upstairs
(09:30):
and I finally have my shelf thatI have all those little things
that I find in it. And it justit's a weird thing. It makes me
feel complete. When people comeinto my house, they look at it.
And I've always said about mypodcast is sad. You know, I do
believe that history is thetouchstone to meaning a
(09:51):
meaningful conversation. Andthat's why like my blogs, I love
talking to my blogs. because youintuitively get that. And
there's so much to learn and totalk about it is a rabbit hole
of history that, like you said,you bring something home and
it's, there's this item and youlearn about it. And then you end
(10:12):
up learning about a bunch ofother things that might not have
to do with that item. You know,like false teeth from 200 years
ago, I get why you do what youdo. And I love it. And I love
that you are so willing to shareit with my audience. Thank you.
Is there any questions that Ididn't ask you that you want to
(10:32):
talk about
Anna Borzello (10:35):
that other categories of objects that I
just find fascinating because ofwhat they've told me about the
past, for example, and I'mshowing you here on my on my
screen, actually, butunfortunately, listeners, you
can't see it. It's a littletiny, tin glaze pot from the
17th century, very small, and Ifound it on a very low tide. And
(10:56):
what it is, is an apothecarypot. So it's a little jar that
was used by basically chemistsin the late 17th century to give
treatments to people of themiddling class. So if you were
poor, you couldn't afford thissort of treatment, you went to
something called a cunning manor woman, as essentially a
(11:18):
traditional healer or witchdoctor, you go for a spell. So a
real treatment from anapothecary would have been put
in this pot. And I was reallyfascinated, I thought, oh, look
and find out what apothecariesdid. And I was very, in
particular, interested by theiringredients. And what I
discovered was they had thesemost marvelous ingredients. They
(11:38):
had things like sparrows, brain,and lion fat. And then there was
a whole craze for a very longtime for something called
Mamiya. Which is actuallydesiccated mummy, as in Egyptian
mummy. And they apparently hadall these incredible properties.
(11:59):
It could cure tuberculosis,everybody wanted it. And I find
that really interesting becauseit made me realize that people
in that era were quitecosmopolitan, you know, you
think of people in the past aresort of huddling around not
having a notion of the outsideworld. But actually, they knew
about Egyptian mummies. Theyknew that they existed, they
(12:19):
knew that they had these magicalpowers that could transform your
health. And at about the timethat this pot was made, which
is, as I said, late 1600s, thatapparently, Mumia had fallen
into disrepute, because somepeople were actually a
desiccating, body, other sortsof bodies, and passing it off as
(12:40):
Egyptian mummies. And so in theend, people thought the meal,
you know, because it was toorisky to take because it wasn't
a real object. Eventually,pharmacists, apothecary stopped
using it. But I just felt thatwas just extraordinary that from
that little object, you got aview of the kind of objects that
were coming into people's livesin this sort of extraordinary
(13:02):
cosmopolitan worldview that theymight have had.
Anne Marie Cannon (13:05):
That is amazing. That's a lovely little
pot to
Anna Borzello (13:09):
taste a lovely little pot to I mean, there's
lots all the objects are likethat they all spark these sort
of extraordinary stories, evensomething very humble like this,
this little green tops, it looksa little kind of green bit of
pottery would fit on the end ofmy thumb, it's got like a little
nipple on top. What's that youthink when you find it for the
first time, what it actually is,is a top of a Tudor money box.
(13:33):
And they were used in thetheatres on the south bank of
the river, at the end of the1500s, the beginning of the
1600s to collect money for allthose shows, like Shakespeare's
Globe, you know, it could havebeen a pot from a Shakespeare
play, and people will go in andthey put their penny into the
slot of this box. At the end ofthe day, the pot was smashed.
(13:55):
And then the money was pocketedby the by the box office. And I
think that's, that's why there'sso many of them on the
foreshore. But you think mygoodness me, and then through
that, you realize that actually,for a long time, all the sinful
occupations were on the southbank of the river, people had to
cross the river to get that, youknow, sin was in a specially
confined area. And I found thatquite interesting because when I
(14:16):
used to live in Nigeria, Iremember going to the north once
and there was a sort of sinfulChristian area actually. And
that was also cordoned off fromthe rest of the Surya run part
of the city. So I find it justamazing sort of parallel to
think that there was thiscordoned off world 400 years ago
in London.
Anne Marie Cannon (14:35):
I love where you you bring the conversation
and I love your enthusiasm, andI'm hearing it in sound bites,
so I'm really excited aboutthat. I don't know I'm jealous
because you get to live thatlife. Like if I had a life to
live, it would be being obsessedwith the tide and going to the
foreshore. I'm coming in May. SoI'm coming in May at the end of
(14:58):
May the beginning of June. and Idon't get to really think about,
well, when's the best time ofyear to come? When's the tide
going to be this or that or theother? And I imagine over time,
you just intuitively get a senseof when the best times to go,
are there different places togo, that you feel are better at
(15:18):
certain times to find things, orhow do you decide where you're
gonna go on the foreshore?
Anna Borzello (15:26):
Well, now, a lot of it has to do with because
there's more people going on theforeshore and I prefer it when
there's less people, I tend,where I go, often is often
directed by how poppin I think aparticular site might be at that
time of day, that determineswhere I go. And then there spots
I think, a good to look at whenthe tide is very low. Because I
(15:46):
think there might be areas inthe exposed mud with the rarely
exposed mud. And there are otherareas when I know that you might
find stuff sort of up the backwall, you know, thrown up
amongst a shingle. So that sortof that sort of other
considerations that I make whenI decide where to go. And also
sometimes it's just random, youthink, maybe I'll go to IKEA and
(16:07):
stop off on the foreshore on theway, it's on the way. It's all
that route.
Anne Marie Cannon (16:13):
So you asked me what do I do for a living?
Obviously, my blogging is yourhobby or passion? Do you have a
vocation that you do aside frommy blogging? And how do you fit
all that together?
Anna Borzello (16:27):
No, I did for a very long time. So I was a
journalist for a long time. Iwas a, as I mentioned, as a
foreign correspondent in Africafor a very long time, which was
a really wonderful job. But formost of the time, when I'm not
mad larking, I am a full timeparent. At the moment.
Hopefully, I'll go back tojournalism one day, because I
very much love it.
Anne Marie Cannon (16:49):
Interests interesting. What do you do with
your objects when you bring themhome?
Anna Borzello (16:55):
I clean them, which is a really tedious and
filthy process, it really annoysthe children. They say please
don't do it in the kitchen sink,please don't do it in the
kitchen, they begged merepeatedly, it's really hard not
to do it in the kitchen. Becauseit's so convenient. I dump stuff
in the garden and eventually getaround to cleaning it. And then
I thought it and the things thatI decided to keep and not
(17:17):
returned to the foreshore. WhenI renovated my kitchen, I
actually renovated the wholekitchen around shells, which I
had specially built, just so Icould display my fines. And so I
sought those objects onto thoseshelves. And I know that other
mud locks have other ways of ofdisplaying their objects at
home. The pullout drawers fromthe old Victorian cabinets are
(17:39):
very popular. Some peopleunfortunately, unfortunately for
them, they come to my house andthey're terribly jealous, I've
got my finds out because theirpartners won't allow them to
have their objects on display.
Because I think they just thinkthis is honestly why would I
want a load of bottles from arubbish tub in my kitchen is
what I think they feel. And whenthey come to my house, I've seen
a couple of people who look kindof so woeful, and then look at
(18:01):
my shelves, if only I could havemy stuff out. But they're not
allowed to you by their partner.
So I think all of us havedifferent ways of sorting and
keeping our fines and somepeople are very, very selective.
They like to keep it terriblysmall. And you'd like they'd
like to keep only the mostperfect things. And other people
like to have this sort ofexpensive collection that they
(18:23):
feel better reflects theforeshore. So I think I'm
somewhere in the middle. Okay,
Anne Marie Cannon (18:27):
I was gonna ask you. So do you have displays
throughout your house or just inyour kitchen?
Anna Borzello (18:34):
I only have that display. I'm trying to be
somewhat selective. I have findscattered around the house. But
my my main display is in mykitchen and I do judge people
when they come in. If someonecomes in and they don't notice
my display, I think why did youdisplay? I used to be exactly
the same. I used to feel thatway about books. If people came
(18:54):
into my house. Well, I used tohave many more books than I do
now. And they didn't look at mybooks. I think well, why don't
you look at your books. Whydon't you want to know what I've
got to read? And so yeah, I canbe a little bit judgmental like
that. So I get thrilled when thechildren bring their friends
around. And the friends thatgravitate towards my towards my
finds always get extra pointsthere
Anne Marie Cannon (19:14):
keepers for friends that I love that. Well
that's like my nephew Finleywho, like I said, He's nine
years old, and he is obsessed byhis collections of coins and,
you know, toys that he's foundmetal detecting. And just, he's
(19:35):
exactly how you describedyourself. That's exactly what he
does. He he collects them andthen he organizes them. And then
he pulls them out and whenpeople come to visit and he
likes to talk about his thingsand kindred spirits, I totally
get it. So over the years you'veamassed this collection, and not
(19:55):
only that you've amassed thisknowledge of these items in the
He's histories. And then withyour imagination, you've taken
it to another place, which Ireally connect with. So what do
you do? Aside from collecting?
How do you share this knowledgein this history with other
people.
Anna Borzello (20:18):
So, there's a really big community of mud
locks on Instagram. And it's areally big and very supportive
community. So people tend topost and then add to each
other's knowledge and share. Andthat's been really interesting
also on Twitter and Facebook,but Instagram has been the been
the main focus. So that that'sone one way that I share what I
(20:40):
find, but also in the last threeyears have been these wonderful
exhibitions by mudlark incentral London during the Thames
festival. So the first one wasin 2019. And then there was
another one it skipped a yearbecause of locked down, there
was one in 2021 and 2022. Andthe last one was brilliant. We
(21:00):
had an exhibition of our findsin the Guild Hall in London, St.
Paul's Cathedral, the NationalMaritime Museum. And it's
organized by Jason Sandy, thelast one who you had on your
podcast. So I've exhibited allof those. And my friend who is a
lecturer in computational artsdesign with this rather magical
(21:21):
machine, it's called a magicalMcLaughlan machine, where you
can virtually mudlark, you putyour hand inside, and it appears
as if you're holding this objectin your hand. And it's a way of
people to connect with theobject. And after they put their
hand in, they often want to knowmore about it. And then that's a
way of entering into my display.
And I've particularly I'venoticed that children love it.
(21:42):
Interestingly, neurodivergentchildren really, really love it.
And actually, a teacher from aspecialist school for autistic
children asked me and my friendto take our magical McLaughlin
machine along to his school andtry it out on the kids there.
And they were really, reallykeen. It was fascinating. And I
said to the kids afterwards, howdid you find that and they sort
(22:05):
of, I can't speak for theneurotypical people. But for us,
it was absolutely wonderful,which I thought was brilliant.
And I think there's somethingabout the immediacy of this, of
these objects, and also handlingthe objects because you pass
around amongst the students. Andit's been a way for them to
connect with history and areally manageable portion. It's
(22:26):
not abstract. It's not likehistory was when I was at
school, and it was just thisremote thing. It's something
that comes up very close. AndI've been to a few schools now.
And it's always been extremelywell received. And I hope to do
more of it. Because there'ssomething so exciting about
children's faces when they getinterested, and they want to
(22:48):
know more, and they find thestories entertaining. And if you
throw in a bit of poo, which isquite easy when you're talking
about the terms, you always getthem engaged. So I was showing a
little bit of poo story. And thething with a little bit
something disgusting, somethinga little bit gruesome,
something, you know, somethingthat makes so go, Oh, that's so
revolting, you know, lice or pooor something yucky?
Anne Marie Cannon (23:12):
Is there a place we can go and look at
your, like a video of yourmudlark machine?
Anna Borzello (23:18):
Oh, I think that it probably if you scroll back
to Instagram, there is one Ithink it would have been last
year sometime in 2021. I thinkthere's a video on there. Okay,
maybe I'll try and redo anotherone at some point.
Anne Marie Cannon (23:32):
All right, I'm writing this down, because I
link out Why do you think thatso many people have become
interested in mud larking?
Anna Borzello (23:42):
I think one really boring reason is that it
was has been presented as anopportunity in the past few
years. So I think there's awhole generation of people who
stumbled upon my blockingthemselves. And then from about
2018, there had been a couple ofbooks produced. And that
generated quite a lot ofpublicity, and news articles and
(24:05):
TV programs. So I think thenpeople realized that it was
something that you could do, andthat gave permission to do it as
well. And that's encouraged verymany more people to go down to
the foreshore. It seems hard toimagine. But actually,
previously, even when I startedmy blocking, people didn't
really realize you could go downto the foreshore if you went to
(24:26):
the South Bank, there will benobody down on the river at all.
It was completely empty. And Iremember at the beginning, when
I opened the gate, Creek openand I'd walk down the steps,
people would stop and stare, andthey'd shout, what are you doing
down there? What are you doing?
And now it's become so popularthat they're shouting, what have
you found because everybodyknows about mud locking? I mean,
(24:47):
literally when I started, nobodyknew and that's not very long
ago. So I think that's the kindof boring reason why it's become
popular. But the reason why itsees people's imagination is
because It's a magical thing.
We're in the middle of a hugeinternational city. And yet
right in the heart of that city,scattered on the ground, are all
(25:10):
these incredible relics from thepast, to tell you stories about
the past, and which anybody canaccess, it's like crazy. It's
like a museum has exploded inthe middle of London. And
someone said, You go low downand sort of loot it. I mean, I
don't loot is probably the wrongword. Because of course, you're
recording all your fines, andyou're not stealing it, you're
not profiting from it. But it isthat kind of heady feeling. I
(25:33):
can't believe this stuff's here.
And I can pick it up. And Ithink that's why but also, the
actual act of mud locking, isquite meditative. I mean, that's
why I really loved it at thebeginning, you're down there by
yourself, by the water, there'sthe sound of the water in the
middle of the city there thesound of gold, I'm really have a
little bit of a thing aboutseagulls, I really loved them, I
(25:53):
spent a lot of time takingphotographs of them. And you're
down there in this magical quietspace, just searching. And you
never know what the lucky dip ofthe foreshore is going to throw
up. So there's this wonderfulsort of random quality, you'll
never know what you get. Andthen as more people have joined,
there's been more of a communityevolving. And actually, people
(26:16):
come from all sorts of differentwalks of life. And yet we have a
common interest. And I have evensomeone as antisocial as myself,
has made many friends. I'msurprised how many friends I've
made, whose company I enjoy. Wejust went to a mother walking
social pub meet recently and allsat together and chatted about
(26:36):
our shared interests. It's areally brilliant pastime based
on this magical premise thattreasure lies for all of the
city.
Anne Marie Cannon (26:54):
It's interesting, because there's
people that I know from the UKthat I've said, My barking and
they don't know what it is, oreven from London. And then I get
to tell them, which I alwaysappreciate that launch into
telling what my knowledge isabout, you know, the Thames and
the tidal River and all thosethings. And the thing I really
(27:18):
like about how it appearsanyways, is that that community,
there isn't a sense ofcompetition. There's just a
sense of passion, a mutualpassion, and desire to learn
more through other people'sexperiences. And obviously, it's
an opportunity to talk aboutwhat, what we've learned, right?
(27:42):
And it just, I love that energy.
And I think that's part of thedynamic that makes it so
compelling. When I go to YouTubeor Instagram and participate in
the groups, it's that sense ofthat shared interest in
connecting to the past and Ilove that I just, it's basic, I
(28:05):
love it. And I love that you areso passionate like I said
already in the the way you'veshared your knowledge and your
experiences. I really appreciatethat.
Anna Borzello (28:20):
Well thank you.
It's been very enjoyable talkingto you,
Anne Marie Cannon (28:23):
Anna Brazil.
Oh, thank you so much for beinghere. I have really enjoyed
talking to you and seeing yourcollections.
Anna Borzello (28:32):
Thank you so much. Thank you for coming.
Thank you for appreciating mycollection that's very
important. was lovely to talk toyou and to meet you.
Anne Marie Cannon (28:43):
There you have it on up or Zelo mudlark
and crafty historian. To findout more about mud larking and
Ana, be sure to check out ourepisode notes. Thanks for
joining us have a great week.
armchair historians is producedby Belgian rabbit productions
hosted by Anne Marie cannonmusic this week is strings by
(29:04):
gold Tiger sound editing anddesigned by Anne Marie cannon
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