January 24, 2023 • 24 mins
Not too long ago, Anne Marie had the opportunity to talk to Emily Strasser. Emily has written a book about a little-known community built in secret by the United States government in rural western Knoxville, Tennessee. Oak Ridge was one of three secret cities constructed by the Manhattan Project.
Emily Strasser is a writer based in Minneapolis, Minnesota. She received her MFA in nonfiction from the University of Minnesota. Her work has appeared in Catapult, Ploughshares, Guernica, Colorado Review, The Bitter Southerner, The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, Gulf Coast, and Tricycle, among others, and she was the presenter of the BBC podcast “The Bomb.” Her essays have been named notable in Best American Essays 2016 and 2017 and nominated for a Pushcart Prize. She was a winner of the 2015 Ploughshares Emerging Writer’s Contest, a 2016 AWP Intro Award, a 2016 Minnesota State Arts Board Artist’s Initiative Grant, and the 2016 W.K. Rose Fellowship from Vassar College. She served as a 2018-19 Olive B. O’Connor Fellow in Creative Writing at Colgate University and a 2019 McKnight Writing Fellow. Her first book, Half-Life of a Secret, a memoir on the intersection of family and national secrets in the nuclear city of Oak Ridge, Tennessee, is forthcoming in April 2023. Pre-order here.
In this episode, Emily talks about her book, Half-Life of a Secret: Reckoning with a Hidden History, part history, part memoir, and part biography.
Resources:
Emily Strasser: https://emilystrasser.com
Half-Life of a Secret: https://www.kentuckypress.com/9780813197197/half-life-of-a-secret/
Oak-Ridge, Tennessee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Ridge,_Tennessee
Anna Rosenberg Episode: https://armchairhistorians.buzzsprout.com/1020073/12009142
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Anne Marie Cannon (00:01):
Hello fellow armchair historians, Anne Marie
here. Before we get into parttwo of my interview with Emily
Strasser, I'd like to take amoment to thank all of our COFI
and Patreon supporters. I'mtruly humbled by all of the
people who think that what I'mdoing is worthwhile enough to
(00:21):
support the show. To find outmore about how you can support
the show, you can go to www dotarmchair historians.com. Or you
can go to any of our episodepages from your podcast platform
of choice. Also, don't forget,there's other ways that you can
support the show by following uson social media and joining the
(00:42):
conversation or leaving us afive star review on your podcast
platform of choice. In today'sepisode, we pick up where we
left off last week with EmilyStrasser, author of half life of
a sacred reckoning with a hiddenhistory. Emily is a writer based
in Minneapolis, Minnesota, shereceived her MFA in nonfiction
(01:04):
from the University ofMinnesota. Her work has appeared
in multiple publications,including catapult plowshares,
the bitter Southerner, theBulletin of Atomic Scientists,
and Gulf Coast, among others.
Emily Strasser (01:21):
And change the patterns that allowed what
happened in the past that washarmful to happen.
Anne Marie Cannon (01:28):
Do you think that's possible?
Emily Strasser (01:31):
I mean, I think collective resistance is
possible. And we see it, youknow, we see it in the fight for
racial justice, we see it infights for women's rights, we
see it in any small way thatsomebody is like working towards
a more just world I have tobelieve in collective
resistance. See it in theclimate movement, you know,
whether it can win, you know,that's what I don't know. Right?
Anne Marie Cannon (01:53):
I guess that was my question. Yeah. Look into
the crystal ball.
Emily Strasser (01:57):
Yeah. Oh, gosh, yeah, I wish I wish I could tell
you, you know, but I think maybemy attitude has shifted a little
bit in that, like, what if thepoint isn't winning, but like,
creating spaces of like, meaningand beauty wherever we can? And
maybe that is a win itself? Youknow, maybe we don't, maybe none
of us are gonna save the wholeworld. But like, if we can do
(02:19):
some good or push back, in oursmall way, create communities
that like our, our upholdingsome kind of justice and
goodness, and meaning. That'sbeautiful, too. You know, we
just have one life to live. Solike, let's, let's live it up.
Anne Marie Cannon (02:36):
Yeah, that's, that's lovely. That's beautiful.
I didn't know we were gonna getso deep. I
Emily Strasser (02:44):
mean, either I didn't remember this.
Anne Marie Cannon (02:47):
So this is an interesting, I didn't know about
Oakridge. So this is kind of newto me. It's, you know, I love it
when somebody focuses in on apart of history that we know
about, but we don't know aboutthat exact piece of it. So does
this community still exist?
Emily Strasser (03:07):
It does, yeah, it's not in its heyday anymore.
It's a lot smaller than it wasduring the height of the Cold
War. But it's still why 12 Theweapons plant where my
grandfather worked is still anoperating nuclear weapons plant,
they still have what is probablyit's still classified, right,
the single largest stockpile ofenriched uranium in the world,
(03:30):
they still make a crucialcomponent for hydrogen bombs.
And they one of the nuclearweapons laboratories, that was
called x 10, and is now calledOak Ridge National Laboratory
actually does a lot of reallyimportant like Medical Research
and Environmental Research. Sothey've moved in a different
direction. They're no longer aweapons laboratory. So it's a
(03:51):
complicated, it's a reallycomplicated place, that they're
really complicated history. AndI want to add something else
about what you said, you know,this is a this is an aspect of
this history that a lot ofpeople don't know about, right?
Most people know, I think, ifthey know about the Manhattan
Project, they might know aboutLos Alamos, which is where kind
of the scientific luminaries wehave like Oppenheimer and Fermi,
(04:14):
and you know, a bunch of otherlike, big names are working
there to create the to build theatomic bomb. And, you know,
that's in a New Mexico desertsecret desert town outside of
Albuquerque. So that's a famousplace, Oak Ridge was more of an
industrial operation. It wasmore of the people living in Oak
Ridge didn't know what they weredoing. And so this circles back
(04:37):
to my my interest in like livinga good life, but it's like most
of us are not the scientificluminaries. Most of us are not,
you know, deciding, we're goingto drop these bombs. We're going
to make these bombs. Most of usmaybe don't even like know
exactly like what we're doing orwhat we're involved in. But I
was interested in that aspect oflike, what about the ordinary
people? What effect does it haveon them to work on something
(04:59):
like This, you know, what aboutthe the janitors who are
sweeping up? What about thepeople like my grandfather who
know a little bit but not allthat much. So the the story of
like the, the every day. Andwhat's interesting too is like
the vast majority of I'm notremembering the numbers off the
top of my head there in the booksomewhere. But there were way
(05:22):
more workers at Oak Ridge thanthey were at Los Alamos, and way
more of the project's budget,went towards this industrial
operation to enrich uranium,then went towards the more
famous parts of the project, andyet, we don't know as much about
it.
Anne Marie Cannon (05:40):
Wow, those are the kinds of histories I
tried to highlight on my show.
They're hidden. I just talked tosomebody about a woman named Ana
Rosenberg, who I had never heardof before. He wrote a book
called The confidant, and shewas really involved in a lot of
important decisions that weremade during the Roosevelt era.
(06:01):
She was the confidant. Peoplecould trust her to keep their
secrets. And it's a it's ahidden history. And it's like
this is I love when historiansdig into these pieces, like what
you're doing, and how did itaffect me, because that's what
it comes back to most of us arejust the common person, right?
(06:23):
But But So my next question is,where do we see this history in
pop culture? And I'm just goingto interject my own thing in
here, because I just saw thisseries with Harry Styles. Okay.
And I cannot think of the nameof it, but it's about it. It's
about this community thatreminds me of Oh, grades, like
(06:45):
what you're talking about. It'slike a secret community. And, I
mean, there's a bigger story anda bigger picture, but it feels
like this. I was just trying togive me a second. I'm gonna
figure out what it's called.
Emily Strasser (07:00):
I'm curious. I don't actually know this. And
now I want to watch it.
Anne Marie Cannon (07:03):
This, it seems like this perfect, ideal
community. The wife is waitingat the door with a cocktail when
the husband gets home. Don'tworry, darling. It's called
Don't worry, darlin.
Emily Strasser (07:14):
Okay. Yeah, I think I've heard of it. Yeah.
Okay. Yeah.
Anne Marie Cannon (07:20):
A 1950s housewife living with her
husband and a utopianexperimental community begins to
worry that his glamorous companycould be hiding disturbing
secrets.
Emily Strasser (07:32):
Anyway, that's my damn disturbing secrets.
Anne Marie Cannon (07:35):
Right. So it's, that that is definitely a
pop culture thing that seems tobe semi related to this. But can
you think of other? Where do wesee this in pop culture?
Emily Strasser (07:48):
Yeah. Well, so I guess the first thing I'd say is
there, I think there's been ashift in that, you know, during
the Cold War, and you know,1950s 60s you have a lot of pop
culture, atomic bomb stuff, youknow, in a kind of like jovial
way, you know, you have songsand you have in Las Vegas where,
(08:08):
you know, outside the, about atest site, you have atomic
tourism, people coming to like,watch, they would go to atomic
bomb themed, like cocktailparties on rooftop hotels in
Vegas. And like watch the testblasts from there, they had Miss
atomic bomb beauty pageantswhere people would dress up as
mushroom clouds, stuff thatfeels really cringy now, right?
From Archbishops active, thiskind of glorification of
(08:31):
violence. And so I don't seethat much of that. Now, with the
exception of there's a flavor ofit in places like Oak Ridge, you
know, that still based theirhistory on a pride in this work.
And there's a lot of reasons forthat. So there is a kind of
(08:51):
light Ness, sometimes that stillsurprises me. Because even even
whatever you think of I don'tthink the bombing on Hiroshima
was a good thing. But howeveryou come down on like that
decision in the messiness of avery brutal war. It's not
something to be taken lightly. Idon't think it was horrible, no
matter how you cut it. So thatsaid, Now, the most direct pop
(09:15):
cultural link I can think of isManhattan, was a TV show about
Los Alamos, and that came outfive years ago, I could be wrong
about that. It was fun to watch,because, you know, there's
dramatization of this historythat I've been really immersed
in, and some of the details thatI loved or dislike seeing really
(09:36):
nerdy details, right, like, I'vedone a lot of archival research,
so seeing the actual, like,folders, period folders, where
they're like, and the memos, youknow, the type script that they
used, and I was like, Oh, wow,look, it's real people using
those things, you know, that Ihave touched in the archives.
Yeah. So that was that wasreally fun. And that show, I
think, was thinking about someof the questions that I'm
(09:59):
thinking that I was thinkingabout, you know, around like,
what is it? What's the humantoll on the people who are doing
this work? What kind of moraldilemmas do people have? Okay,
another example, this may notquite be pop culture, but it is
current and maybe a little plugfor my own work. But I was in
(10:19):
2020 presented a BBC podcast onthe saw that yeah, it was really
it was really cool opportunity.
On Leo's Dillard, who was aHungarian Jewish scientist who
is involved in the ManhattanProject, too. And he's a really
interesting character, becausehe's, you know, arguably, it's
right complicated, no one personis responsible for the atomic
bomb, one of his scientificdiscoveries sort of directly led
(10:43):
to people realizing that it wasactually possible to build this,
instead of theoreticallypossible. And he kind of pushed
for it, initially, because he,you know, there was the fear of
what if the Nazis are able tomake this and so we need one
first, and he, you know, he'sthe person who got Einstein to
write the letter to Rooseveltthat ultimately led to the
(11:07):
Manhattan Project being started.
And then later on, for a varietyof reasons, like, thought that
it shouldn't be used, you know,Germany, it's clear that Germany
is going to be defeated. Beforethe bomb, it's even ready to be
used, it's clear that they don'thave a bomb. And he doesn't
think it's right to use it onthe Japanese, who don't, you
(11:29):
know, who don't have a bomb andadvocates for it to be tested on
an uninhabited island first, sothat people can see what it will
cause and kind of threaten? Sohe's a really, you know, really
complicated, interesting figure.
So I think there is stillcurrent, like, interest in this
history. And that was oneexample of that.
Anne Marie Cannon (11:53):
There's still a lot to uncover, too. Yeah.
Yeah, totally. Is there anythingI didn't ask you that you wanted
to share?
Emily Strasser (12:03):
I always ask this question in interviews,
too. It's a good one. I haveI've so enjoyed this
conversation and went places Ididn't completely expect. Oh,
good.
Anne Marie Cannon (12:15):
What one thing would you want my audience
to know, and or remember aboutthis history?
Emily Strasser (12:25):
Maybe it's what we talked about earlier that
like, this is a history thatinvolves many, many ordinary
people, at many levels of power,and not having power. And and
that it? You know, I guessanother, maybe an argument in
(12:46):
the book that, that we haven'treally covered is, or only
obliquely, is that beinginvolved in something like this,
not only, you know, beats, toviolence, say against the people
who are bombed, or the peoplewho are exposed to fallout from
nuclear tests, you know, theexternal victims, or the people
(13:08):
who are exposed to environmentalcontaminants in the site, but it
actually, like, hurts the peoplewho are working on it, too, you
know, like a lot of workershave, you know, gotten sick from
their work and exposure tochemicals and radiation. And,
and that's not even to contendwith. How does it deadness
emotionally to accept violenceon this scale, like what happens
(13:29):
to us, when we what happens whenwe normalize something like
nuclear weapons, you know,something like saying that
that's it's acceptable topossess and potentially use
weapons that are capable ofviolence on such a cruel and
massive scale, that devaluing ofhuman life, I think is, is bad
(13:52):
for everyone, and keeps us frombeing fully like human and
alive. And I think that's trueof many histories. You know, I
think of many harmful histories.
Racism, like is bad for whitepeople, too. Which is not to say
that white people are victims ofit, but that we should give it
up. Not for others, not just forothers, but for ourselves.
Anne Marie Cannon (14:16):
Yeah. Where can we find you?
Emily Strasser (14:20):
So I am I have a website? It's my name.com Emily
strasser.com. And I'm onTwitter. I'm not super active on
Twitter. And who knows what'shappening with Twitter these
days?
Anne Marie Cannon (14:34):
Oh, right, right. Creepy.
Emily Strasser (14:36):
Yeah, right. I don't know how much longer by
the time you air this will it?
Will it still be going on? Am Igonna still be on Twitter? I
don't know. Yeah,
Anne Marie Cannon (14:44):
that's the question every day right?
Emily Strasser (14:47):
Yeah. I'm not currently on Instagram. I may
get back on soon in the run upto the book. But my website is
the best place I'll you know,I'll keep links up to date.
About what
Anne Marie Cannon (14:58):
when does what the name With the book,
what's the name of the bookagain?
Emily Strasser (15:02):
HalfLife for secret, and then the subtitle is
reckoning with a hidden history.
And it comes out April 4.
Anne Marie Cannon (15:10):
So it comes out in April. Okay. Yeah, I'm
not sure when this episode isgoing to come out. It'll be
before April probably. Is thatokay?
Emily Strasser (15:17):
Yeah, that's great. I mean, I would love for
people to preorder, if they'reinterested pre orders really
help. Help writers, you know,help presses like anticipate how
many books to print, it's areally great way to support
writers, you can pre order itthrough the University Press of
Kentucky, and you should be ableto order it from any bookshop or
anywhere that sells books.
Anne Marie Cannon (15:38):
There was one thing that I wanted to say, that
you reminded me of, or made methink about, and I. So I sell
vintage clothing and fashion andthat type of thing. I'm really
into that. And I never thoughtabout the word atomic, as it
correlates to a tie. It's weird.
I'm like, embarrassed to saythat, but reading about your
(16:00):
book and reading about you. It'slike, I realized that
connection, and it now it'scompletely changed the way I
feel about that word, and howit's related to the atomic bomb.
Emily Strasser (16:16):
I'm really glad.
Yeah, I'm really glad youbrought that up. Because
actually, that does relate toyour question about pop culture,
too, that it is embedded intoour language in ways that we
don't think about that muchradioactive too. You know, it's
kind of like, you know, there'ssongs about being radioactive.
And I think people know thatthat's dangerous, but it's sort
of it's in a light hearted way.
(16:36):
Now, of course, atomic isn'tonly a bomb it also, you know,
the atomic level of, you know,atoms are, are the thing that
make up our whole world. Butcertainly one of the ways that
that word came, I think into thecommon lingo is through the
atomic bomb, so it definitelyhas that. Yeah. Association. I
Anne Marie Cannon (16:57):
think that what it is related to with
regard to style and fashiondesign, it's connected to no
other. Yeah, the atomic bomb andatomic energy.
Emily Strasser (17:13):
Okay, maybe I don't know a lot about this
particular. I'd love to hearmore about the particular
context of how it's related tofashion.
Anne Marie Cannon (17:21):
Yeah, it's, it's a, it's kind of like DECO,
atomic, you know,
Emily Strasser (17:27):
so it's like the the era, like, related to like,
inist algebra for the atomicera. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah,
that's so yeah. Right.
Anne Marie Cannon (17:38):
Mid Century Modern. Atomic,
Emily Strasser (17:40):
right, right.
Right, right. Yeah. Gosh, yeah,we have nostalgia for a lot of
things that are
Anne Marie Cannon (17:47):
that we don't think about. Yeah, this
definitely made me think aboutthat. Anyways,
Emily Strasser (17:51):
I don't think so. I wasn't so happy with the
way I answered your firstquestion. But maybe that's just
how it is. So
Anne Marie Cannon (17:58):
I'm always amazed at how historians think
about that question. Soliterally, and it's really just
kind of like a segue intowhatever your you project is,
right?
Emily Strasser (18:10):
Yeah. So what's what's interesting about that
question, and I've been thinkingabout it is I'm someone I'm not
interested in war, I'm notreally interested in weapons. I
don't like war movies, you know.
So for me to write a book that'sabout World War Two, it's about
the cold war that's aboutnuclear weapons is kind of a big
surprise to me as, as much asany one else. You know, I'm
interested in women's history.
(18:31):
I'm interested in stories ofresistance. I'm interested in
European medieval history, allkinds of different histories
that are not this one. And so,and yet, I became obsessed,
right. And so I guess, for me,the weigh in was very personal.
And we'll get more into this,but it was a family history. And
it was it really came about withme trying to understand
(18:55):
something about where my familycomes from, how we got to be the
way we are, what is the groundthat I stand on, you know, and
so, as a writer and aresearcher, I really come from a
creative nonfiction background,which like, intimately ties,
often the personal with theresearched and use the personal
(19:15):
as a lens through which toexplore a larger context. And
so, for me, this was driven fromthis personal angle, and I can
get interested in almostanything, you know, give me any
topic. And if I do enoughresearch, I'm going to find a
(19:36):
way to be interested in it. Sothat's a way to not answer the
favorite history, but
Anne Marie Cannon (19:42):
Well, I know so like one of my idols is Terry
Gross, fresh air.
Emily Strasser (19:48):
Oh, yeah. She's amazing.
Anne Marie Cannon (19:49):
I adore her.
I always think what would TerryGross do in this situation?
Emily Strasser (19:54):
We have learned a lot from that.
Anne Marie Cannon (19:57):
But I remember that she interviewed a
guy who wrote a book aboutbanana blights. Like, talk about
boring on the surface. It wasone of the best interviews I've
ever listened to, I don't know,it was the passion of which the
person approached the subjectmatter in the past the, you
(20:18):
know, intrigue that Terry Grosshad, I think you can make. You
know, if you look beneath thesurface enough, you'll find a
reason to be interested. I lovethat.
Emily Strasser (20:28):
Yeah, I mean, for me, it's like so much about
how things are interrelated. Andsometimes I have trouble
focusing, because you pick upone tiny thing, and it's
connected to everything else.
And that's just how my brainworks. Right? You know, I
literally have this essay, Iwant to write about dust, you
know, how boring can you thinkabout dust, but it's like, it's
about housekeeping. It's aboutlike, the cells in our bodies
(20:50):
that decay, it's about thesatisfaction of cleaning. It's
about like, women's work. It's,you know, I think I have all
these ideas about how an essayabout dusk could be interesting
and nice thoughts about death?
So I don't know, it's like,sometimes those are the most fun
kind of things to write or reador things that seem so mundane,
(21:10):
you know? And yeah, and you cantake the leap to, to see how
they connect to big questions.
Anne Marie Cannon (21:19):
Fascinating.
See, I don't think about thosethings. Unless somebody thinks
about them for me, and then,like what you do, like you wrote
this book about this, I wouldn'thave thought of it in that way.
But when it's presented to me ina certain light, then I can
think about it in that way. I'mnot as creative, imaginative,
maybe I don't know or I don'tthink in that way.
Emily Strasser (21:40):
So well, you creative in a lot of ways. I
mean, this is asking thesequestions, having these
conversations is hugelycreative. You're to
Anne Marie Cannon (21:47):
that you're right, they do. I'm gonna say
thank you to that. That's true.
Well, Emily, I really enjoyedtalking to you today. Thank you
so much for showing up onSunday.
Emily Strasser (21:58):
Oh, thank you for working me in on a weekend
it was I know my schedule ischallenging works.
Anne Marie Cannon (22:03):
Yeah, mine is kinda too lately, so but I'm
glad we got to do this. Thereyou have it fellow armchair
historians, be sure to check outour episode notes. To find out
more about pre ordering the bookabout Emily and about the
history that we talked abouttoday. Thanks for joining us.
Have a great week.
Hello fellow armchair historians, Anne Marie
here. Before we get into parttwo of my interview with Emily
Strasser, I'd like to take amoment to thank all of our COFI
and Patreon supporters. I'mtruly humbled by all of the
people who think that what I'mdoing is worthwhile enough to
(00:21):
support the show. To find outmore about how you can support
the show, you can go to www dotarmchair historians.com. Or you
can go to any of our episodepages from your podcast platform
of choice. Also, don't forget,there's other ways that you can
support the show by following uson social media and joining the
(00:42):
conversation or leaving us afive star review on your podcast
platform of choice. In today'sepisode, we pick up where we
left off last week with EmilyStrasser, author of half life of
a sacred reckoning with a hiddenhistory. Emily is a writer based
in Minneapolis, Minnesota, shereceived her MFA in nonfiction
(01:04):
from the University ofMinnesota. Her work has appeared
in multiple publications,including catapult plowshares,
the bitter Southerner, theBulletin of Atomic Scientists,
and Gulf Coast, among others.
Emily Strasser (01:21):
And change the patterns that allowed what
happened in the past that washarmful to happen.
Anne Marie Cannon (01:28):
Do you think that's possible?
Emily Strasser (01:31):
I mean, I think collective resistance is
possible. And we see it, youknow, we see it in the fight for
racial justice, we see it infights for women's rights, we
see it in any small way thatsomebody is like working towards
a more just world I have tobelieve in collective
resistance. See it in theclimate movement, you know,
whether it can win, you know,that's what I don't know. Right?
Anne Marie Cannon (01:53):
I guess that was my question. Yeah. Look into
the crystal ball.
Emily Strasser (01:57):
Yeah. Oh, gosh, yeah, I wish I wish I could tell
you, you know, but I think maybemy attitude has shifted a little
bit in that, like, what if thepoint isn't winning, but like,
creating spaces of like, meaningand beauty wherever we can? And
maybe that is a win itself? Youknow, maybe we don't, maybe none
of us are gonna save the wholeworld. But like, if we can do
(02:19):
some good or push back, in oursmall way, create communities
that like our, our upholdingsome kind of justice and
goodness, and meaning. That'sbeautiful, too. You know, we
just have one life to live. Solike, let's, let's live it up.
Anne Marie Cannon (02:36):
Yeah, that's, that's lovely. That's beautiful.
I didn't know we were gonna getso deep. I
Emily Strasser (02:44):
mean, either I didn't remember this.
Anne Marie Cannon (02:47):
So this is an interesting, I didn't know about
Oakridge. So this is kind of newto me. It's, you know, I love it
when somebody focuses in on apart of history that we know
about, but we don't know aboutthat exact piece of it. So does
this community still exist?
Emily Strasser (03:07):
It does, yeah, it's not in its heyday anymore.
It's a lot smaller than it wasduring the height of the Cold
War. But it's still why 12 Theweapons plant where my
grandfather worked is still anoperating nuclear weapons plant,
they still have what is probablyit's still classified, right,
the single largest stockpile ofenriched uranium in the world,
(03:30):
they still make a crucialcomponent for hydrogen bombs.
And they one of the nuclearweapons laboratories, that was
called x 10, and is now calledOak Ridge National Laboratory
actually does a lot of reallyimportant like Medical Research
and Environmental Research. Sothey've moved in a different
direction. They're no longer aweapons laboratory. So it's a
(03:51):
complicated, it's a reallycomplicated place, that they're
really complicated history. AndI want to add something else
about what you said, you know,this is a this is an aspect of
this history that a lot ofpeople don't know about, right?
Most people know, I think, ifthey know about the Manhattan
Project, they might know aboutLos Alamos, which is where kind
of the scientific luminaries wehave like Oppenheimer and Fermi,
(04:14):
and you know, a bunch of otherlike, big names are working
there to create the to build theatomic bomb. And, you know,
that's in a New Mexico desertsecret desert town outside of
Albuquerque. So that's a famousplace, Oak Ridge was more of an
industrial operation. It wasmore of the people living in Oak
Ridge didn't know what they weredoing. And so this circles back
(04:37):
to my my interest in like livinga good life, but it's like most
of us are not the scientificluminaries. Most of us are not,
you know, deciding, we're goingto drop these bombs. We're going
to make these bombs. Most of usmaybe don't even like know
exactly like what we're doing orwhat we're involved in. But I
was interested in that aspect oflike, what about the ordinary
people? What effect does it haveon them to work on something
(04:59):
like This, you know, what aboutthe the janitors who are
sweeping up? What about thepeople like my grandfather who
know a little bit but not allthat much. So the the story of
like the, the every day. Andwhat's interesting too is like
the vast majority of I'm notremembering the numbers off the
top of my head there in the booksomewhere. But there were way
(05:22):
more workers at Oak Ridge thanthey were at Los Alamos, and way
more of the project's budget,went towards this industrial
operation to enrich uranium,then went towards the more
famous parts of the project, andyet, we don't know as much about
it.
Anne Marie Cannon (05:40):
Wow, those are the kinds of histories I
tried to highlight on my show.
They're hidden. I just talked tosomebody about a woman named Ana
Rosenberg, who I had never heardof before. He wrote a book
called The confidant, and shewas really involved in a lot of
important decisions that weremade during the Roosevelt era.
(06:01):
She was the confidant. Peoplecould trust her to keep their
secrets. And it's a it's ahidden history. And it's like
this is I love when historiansdig into these pieces, like what
you're doing, and how did itaffect me, because that's what
it comes back to most of us arejust the common person, right?
(06:23):
But But So my next question is,where do we see this history in
pop culture? And I'm just goingto interject my own thing in
here, because I just saw thisseries with Harry Styles. Okay.
And I cannot think of the nameof it, but it's about it. It's
about this community thatreminds me of Oh, grades, like
(06:45):
what you're talking about. It'slike a secret community. And, I
mean, there's a bigger story anda bigger picture, but it feels
like this. I was just trying togive me a second. I'm gonna
figure out what it's called.
Emily Strasser (07:00):
I'm curious. I don't actually know this. And
now I want to watch it.
Anne Marie Cannon (07:03):
This, it seems like this perfect, ideal
community. The wife is waitingat the door with a cocktail when
the husband gets home. Don'tworry, darling. It's called
Don't worry, darlin.
Emily Strasser (07:14):
Okay. Yeah, I think I've heard of it. Yeah.
Okay. Yeah.
Anne Marie Cannon (07:20):
A 1950s housewife living with her
husband and a utopianexperimental community begins to
worry that his glamorous companycould be hiding disturbing
secrets.
Emily Strasser (07:32):
Anyway, that's my damn disturbing secrets.
Anne Marie Cannon (07:35):
Right. So it's, that that is definitely a
pop culture thing that seems tobe semi related to this. But can
you think of other? Where do wesee this in pop culture?
Emily Strasser (07:48):
Yeah. Well, so I guess the first thing I'd say is
there, I think there's been ashift in that, you know, during
the Cold War, and you know,1950s 60s you have a lot of pop
culture, atomic bomb stuff, youknow, in a kind of like jovial
way, you know, you have songsand you have in Las Vegas where,
(08:08):
you know, outside the, about atest site, you have atomic
tourism, people coming to like,watch, they would go to atomic
bomb themed, like cocktailparties on rooftop hotels in
Vegas. And like watch the testblasts from there, they had Miss
atomic bomb beauty pageantswhere people would dress up as
mushroom clouds, stuff thatfeels really cringy now, right?
From Archbishops active, thiskind of glorification of
(08:31):
violence. And so I don't seethat much of that. Now, with the
exception of there's a flavor ofit in places like Oak Ridge, you
know, that still based theirhistory on a pride in this work.
And there's a lot of reasons forthat. So there is a kind of
(08:51):
light Ness, sometimes that stillsurprises me. Because even even
whatever you think of I don'tthink the bombing on Hiroshima
was a good thing. But howeveryou come down on like that
decision in the messiness of avery brutal war. It's not
something to be taken lightly. Idon't think it was horrible, no
matter how you cut it. So thatsaid, Now, the most direct pop
(09:15):
cultural link I can think of isManhattan, was a TV show about
Los Alamos, and that came outfive years ago, I could be wrong
about that. It was fun to watch,because, you know, there's
dramatization of this historythat I've been really immersed
in, and some of the details thatI loved or dislike seeing really
(09:36):
nerdy details, right, like, I'vedone a lot of archival research,
so seeing the actual, like,folders, period folders, where
they're like, and the memos, youknow, the type script that they
used, and I was like, Oh, wow,look, it's real people using
those things, you know, that Ihave touched in the archives.
Yeah. So that was that wasreally fun. And that show, I
think, was thinking about someof the questions that I'm
(09:59):
thinking that I was thinkingabout, you know, around like,
what is it? What's the humantoll on the people who are doing
this work? What kind of moraldilemmas do people have? Okay,
another example, this may notquite be pop culture, but it is
current and maybe a little plugfor my own work. But I was in
(10:19):
2020 presented a BBC podcast onthe saw that yeah, it was really
it was really cool opportunity.
On Leo's Dillard, who was aHungarian Jewish scientist who
is involved in the ManhattanProject, too. And he's a really
interesting character, becausehe's, you know, arguably, it's
right complicated, no one personis responsible for the atomic
bomb, one of his scientificdiscoveries sort of directly led
(10:43):
to people realizing that it wasactually possible to build this,
instead of theoreticallypossible. And he kind of pushed
for it, initially, because he,you know, there was the fear of
what if the Nazis are able tomake this and so we need one
first, and he, you know, he'sthe person who got Einstein to
write the letter to Rooseveltthat ultimately led to the
(11:07):
Manhattan Project being started.
And then later on, for a varietyof reasons, like, thought that
it shouldn't be used, you know,Germany, it's clear that Germany
is going to be defeated. Beforethe bomb, it's even ready to be
used, it's clear that they don'thave a bomb. And he doesn't
think it's right to use it onthe Japanese, who don't, you
(11:29):
know, who don't have a bomb andadvocates for it to be tested on
an uninhabited island first, sothat people can see what it will
cause and kind of threaten? Sohe's a really, you know, really
complicated, interesting figure.
So I think there is stillcurrent, like, interest in this
history. And that was oneexample of that.
Anne Marie Cannon (11:53):
There's still a lot to uncover, too. Yeah.
Yeah, totally. Is there anythingI didn't ask you that you wanted
to share?
Emily Strasser (12:03):
I always ask this question in interviews,
too. It's a good one. I haveI've so enjoyed this
conversation and went places Ididn't completely expect. Oh,
good.
Anne Marie Cannon (12:15):
What one thing would you want my audience
to know, and or remember aboutthis history?
Emily Strasser (12:25):
Maybe it's what we talked about earlier that
like, this is a history thatinvolves many, many ordinary
people, at many levels of power,and not having power. And and
that it? You know, I guessanother, maybe an argument in
(12:46):
the book that, that we haven'treally covered is, or only
obliquely, is that beinginvolved in something like this,
not only, you know, beats, toviolence, say against the people
who are bombed, or the peoplewho are exposed to fallout from
nuclear tests, you know, theexternal victims, or the people
(13:08):
who are exposed to environmentalcontaminants in the site, but it
actually, like, hurts the peoplewho are working on it, too, you
know, like a lot of workershave, you know, gotten sick from
their work and exposure tochemicals and radiation. And,
and that's not even to contendwith. How does it deadness
emotionally to accept violenceon this scale, like what happens
(13:29):
to us, when we what happens whenwe normalize something like
nuclear weapons, you know,something like saying that
that's it's acceptable topossess and potentially use
weapons that are capable ofviolence on such a cruel and
massive scale, that devaluing ofhuman life, I think is, is bad
(13:52):
for everyone, and keeps us frombeing fully like human and
alive. And I think that's trueof many histories. You know, I
think of many harmful histories.
Racism, like is bad for whitepeople, too. Which is not to say
that white people are victims ofit, but that we should give it
up. Not for others, not just forothers, but for ourselves.
Anne Marie Cannon (14:16):
Yeah. Where can we find you?
Emily Strasser (14:20):
So I am I have a website? It's my name.com Emily
strasser.com. And I'm onTwitter. I'm not super active on
Twitter. And who knows what'shappening with Twitter these
days?
Anne Marie Cannon (14:34):
Oh, right, right. Creepy.
Emily Strasser (14:36):
Yeah, right. I don't know how much longer by
the time you air this will it?
Will it still be going on? Am Igonna still be on Twitter? I
don't know. Yeah,
Anne Marie Cannon (14:44):
that's the question every day right?
Emily Strasser (14:47):
Yeah. I'm not currently on Instagram. I may
get back on soon in the run upto the book. But my website is
the best place I'll you know,I'll keep links up to date.
About what
Anne Marie Cannon (14:58):
when does what the name With the book,
what's the name of the bookagain?
Emily Strasser (15:02):
HalfLife for secret, and then the subtitle is
reckoning with a hidden history.
And it comes out April 4.
Anne Marie Cannon (15:10):
So it comes out in April. Okay. Yeah, I'm
not sure when this episode isgoing to come out. It'll be
before April probably. Is thatokay?
Emily Strasser (15:17):
Yeah, that's great. I mean, I would love for
people to preorder, if they'reinterested pre orders really
help. Help writers, you know,help presses like anticipate how
many books to print, it's areally great way to support
writers, you can pre order itthrough the University Press of
Kentucky, and you should be ableto order it from any bookshop or
anywhere that sells books.
Anne Marie Cannon (15:38):
There was one thing that I wanted to say, that
you reminded me of, or made methink about, and I. So I sell
vintage clothing and fashion andthat type of thing. I'm really
into that. And I never thoughtabout the word atomic, as it
correlates to a tie. It's weird.
I'm like, embarrassed to saythat, but reading about your
(16:00):
book and reading about you. It'slike, I realized that
connection, and it now it'scompletely changed the way I
feel about that word, and howit's related to the atomic bomb.
Emily Strasser (16:16):
I'm really glad.
Yeah, I'm really glad youbrought that up. Because
actually, that does relate toyour question about pop culture,
too, that it is embedded intoour language in ways that we
don't think about that muchradioactive too. You know, it's
kind of like, you know, there'ssongs about being radioactive.
And I think people know thatthat's dangerous, but it's sort
of it's in a light hearted way.
(16:36):
Now, of course, atomic isn'tonly a bomb it also, you know,
the atomic level of, you know,atoms are, are the thing that
make up our whole world. Butcertainly one of the ways that
that word came, I think into thecommon lingo is through the
atomic bomb, so it definitelyhas that. Yeah. Association. I
Anne Marie Cannon (16:57):
think that what it is related to with
regard to style and fashiondesign, it's connected to no
other. Yeah, the atomic bomb andatomic energy.
Emily Strasser (17:13):
Okay, maybe I don't know a lot about this
particular. I'd love to hearmore about the particular
context of how it's related tofashion.
Anne Marie Cannon (17:21):
Yeah, it's, it's a, it's kind of like DECO,
atomic, you know,
Emily Strasser (17:27):
so it's like the the era, like, related to like,
inist algebra for the atomicera. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah,
that's so yeah. Right.
Anne Marie Cannon (17:38):
Mid Century Modern. Atomic,
Emily Strasser (17:40):
right, right.
Right, right. Yeah. Gosh, yeah,we have nostalgia for a lot of
things that are
Anne Marie Cannon (17:47):
that we don't think about. Yeah, this
definitely made me think aboutthat. Anyways,
Emily Strasser (17:51):
I don't think so. I wasn't so happy with the
way I answered your firstquestion. But maybe that's just
how it is. So
Anne Marie Cannon (17:58):
I'm always amazed at how historians think
about that question. Soliterally, and it's really just
kind of like a segue intowhatever your you project is,
right?
Emily Strasser (18:10):
Yeah. So what's what's interesting about that
question, and I've been thinkingabout it is I'm someone I'm not
interested in war, I'm notreally interested in weapons. I
don't like war movies, you know.
So for me to write a book that'sabout World War Two, it's about
the cold war that's aboutnuclear weapons is kind of a big
surprise to me as, as much asany one else. You know, I'm
interested in women's history.
(18:31):
I'm interested in stories ofresistance. I'm interested in
European medieval history, allkinds of different histories
that are not this one. And so,and yet, I became obsessed,
right. And so I guess, for me,the weigh in was very personal.
And we'll get more into this,but it was a family history. And
it was it really came about withme trying to understand
(18:55):
something about where my familycomes from, how we got to be the
way we are, what is the groundthat I stand on, you know, and
so, as a writer and aresearcher, I really come from a
creative nonfiction background,which like, intimately ties,
often the personal with theresearched and use the personal
(19:15):
as a lens through which toexplore a larger context. And
so, for me, this was driven fromthis personal angle, and I can
get interested in almostanything, you know, give me any
topic. And if I do enoughresearch, I'm going to find a
(19:36):
way to be interested in it. Sothat's a way to not answer the
favorite history, but
Anne Marie Cannon (19:42):
Well, I know so like one of my idols is Terry
Gross, fresh air.
Emily Strasser (19:48):
Oh, yeah. She's amazing.
Anne Marie Cannon (19:49):
I adore her.
I always think what would TerryGross do in this situation?
Emily Strasser (19:54):
We have learned a lot from that.
Anne Marie Cannon (19:57):
But I remember that she interviewed a
guy who wrote a book aboutbanana blights. Like, talk about
boring on the surface. It wasone of the best interviews I've
ever listened to, I don't know,it was the passion of which the
person approached the subjectmatter in the past the, you
(20:18):
know, intrigue that Terry Grosshad, I think you can make. You
know, if you look beneath thesurface enough, you'll find a
reason to be interested. I lovethat.
Emily Strasser (20:28):
Yeah, I mean, for me, it's like so much about
how things are interrelated. Andsometimes I have trouble
focusing, because you pick upone tiny thing, and it's
connected to everything else.
And that's just how my brainworks. Right? You know, I
literally have this essay, Iwant to write about dust, you
know, how boring can you thinkabout dust, but it's like, it's
about housekeeping. It's aboutlike, the cells in our bodies
(20:50):
that decay, it's about thesatisfaction of cleaning. It's
about like, women's work. It's,you know, I think I have all
these ideas about how an essayabout dusk could be interesting
and nice thoughts about death?
So I don't know, it's like,sometimes those are the most fun
kind of things to write or reador things that seem so mundane,
(21:10):
you know? And yeah, and you cantake the leap to, to see how
they connect to big questions.
Anne Marie Cannon (21:19):
Fascinating.
See, I don't think about thosethings. Unless somebody thinks
about them for me, and then,like what you do, like you wrote
this book about this, I wouldn'thave thought of it in that way.
But when it's presented to me ina certain light, then I can
think about it in that way. I'mnot as creative, imaginative,
maybe I don't know or I don'tthink in that way.
Emily Strasser (21:40):
So well, you creative in a lot of ways. I
mean, this is asking thesequestions, having these
conversations is hugelycreative. You're to
Anne Marie Cannon (21:47):
that you're right, they do. I'm gonna say
thank you to that. That's true.
Well, Emily, I really enjoyedtalking to you today. Thank you
so much for showing up onSunday.
Emily Strasser (21:58):
Oh, thank you for working me in on a weekend
it was I know my schedule ischallenging works.
Anne Marie Cannon (22:03):
Yeah, mine is kinda too lately, so but I'm
glad we got to do this. Thereyou have it fellow armchair
historians, be sure to check outour episode notes. To find out
more about pre ordering the bookabout Emily and about the
history that we talked abouttoday. Thanks for joining us.
Have a great week.
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