November 14, 2024 • 40 mins
This is part one of an interview Anne Marie did in 2020. Sadly, shortly after the interview, Jeff Lipkes passed away. This episode is dedicated to him.
Jeff Lipkes was born and raised in Los Angeles and educated at U.C. Berkeley and Princeton, completing his Ph.D. in History in 1995. His dissertation was awarded the Joseph Dorfman Prize by the History of Economics Society.
Rehearsals: The German Army in Belgium, August 1914 was published by University of Leuven Press in October, 2007, and is being distributed in North America by Cornell University Press. Lipkes is also the author of Politics, Religion and Classical Political Economy in Britain: John Stuart Mill and his Followers(Macmillan/St. Martins, 1999), and half a dozen articles on the history of economic thought and British intellectual history.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Anne Marie Cannon (00:00):
Anne, hello. My name is Anne Marie
cannon, and I'm the host ofarmchair historians. What's your
favorite history? Each episodebegins with this one question.
My guests come from all walks oflife, and are people who get
really excited about aparticular time, place or person
from our distant or not sodistant past, the jumping off
(00:22):
point is where they becomecurious, then enter the rabbit
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(01:08):
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Links to both in the EpisodeNotes.
Unknown (01:22):
You Hi,
Anne Marie Cannon (01:32):
I'm Anne Marie cannon, and you're
listening to the last trainleaving Belgium podcast, the
last train leaving Belgium is aBelgian rabbit production. Thank
you for joining us for episodethree, part one of the podcast,
Jeff Lipkes (02:01):
especially if you look at the older military
historians, older books, that infact, the Germans behaved very
brutally and callouslytowards the Belgian civilian
population, and they killedabout 6000 in the first month of
the war, really, over a periodof about three weeks. They're
very bloody minded. And
Anne Marie Cannon (02:34):
in this episode, we speak to Jeff
lipkes, author of rehearsals theGerman army in Belgium, August
1914, which recounts the brutalworld war one invasion of
Belgium by the Germans. It's adisturbing part of history which
has been swept under the rug bygovernments and scholars alike.
(02:59):
The book also recounts thereason I cannot tell my mother's
story without first going backto what happened to her family
in World War One youthis is a supplemental limited
(03:23):
series podcast that is meant toaccompany the soon to be
released documentary. Stay up todate with the latest news on the
documentary, as well as thepodcast on social media. You can
find us on Twitter, Instagramand Facebook. Also be sure to
subscribe to us through yourfavorite podcast platform. If
(03:46):
you listen to us through Applepodcasts, be sure to subscribe
to the podcast and leave areview. All those actions bump
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easier for people to find us.
(04:08):
So we're here today with Jefflipkes. Jeff received his PhD
from Princeton. He has authoredseveral books, including the one
we'll be talking about today,rehearsals the German army in
Belgium, August 1914 whichdescribes what happened to
Belgian civilians when theGerman army invaded in August
1914 he has also writtenpolitics religion and classical
(04:32):
political economy in Britain,John Stuart Mill and his
followers, which, According tothe economic record, is
innovative, provoking andrevealing. His study redraws the
map of Mill's intellectualhistory, and according to the
economic journal, it is a firstrate addition to the mill
(04:52):
literature. Mr. Lipkes is alsoworking on a book about Sir
Edward Gray, the British foreignsecretary from 1904
Four to 1916 titled The lamps goout Sir Edward gray and the
origins of the First World War.
He is also, among other things,written articles on the history
of economics, the history ofeconomic thought and British
(05:13):
intellectual history. Welcome tothe show. Oh, thanks for
inviting me. Did I leaveanything out or get anything
wrong in that intro? I just, Ijust felt a twinge of guilt
about the shred with great book,because I put that aside for a
while. I'm working on somethingelse on, actually, on
contemporary anti semitism, butI will do plan to go back to so
(05:34):
interesting. What's Do you havea title for the new book that
you're working on? Well, I'm notsure title yet, interesting and
timely. So we're going to reallytalk about the first book. I
mentioned rehearsals the Germanarmy in Belgium, August 1914 if
you could just, you know, giveus some background about the
(05:55):
book.
Jeff Lipkes (05:57):
Well, okay, it's towards late in my teaching
career. I'm retired now. I wasteaching a lot of classes in
20th century Europe, 20thcentury world and then the world
wars. These are popular classes.
Unlike classes in the history ofeconomic thought, you get a
bigger draw. And so I got it,and I got into the two World
Wars. And what you run across inthe standard text and in the one
thing why the courses areattractive to students is you
(06:18):
wind up showing a lot ofdocumentary footage, especially
World War Two, because there'sso much good documentaries.
Anne Marie Cannon (06:25):
I don't know about you, but if I was given
the choice of listening tolectures about the theory of
economics or watchingdocumentaries about World War
One, I'd definitely pick thedocumentaries of World War One.
And
Jeff Lipkes (06:37):
there's that.
There's a standard one now, andit reflects the popular opinion
at the time, the authors werenot, you know, didn't know very
much about, really, what went onin Belgium. And that was the
consensus was that these socalled atrocities were just
manufactured by Britishpropaganda. They were trapped up
in London. Or some historiansaid that, well, you know, some
they did respond harshly toFrank tour. Frank tourists were
(07:00):
the supposed guerrillasharpshooters who, in fact,
didn't exist. There was nocivilian resistance to the
Germans. But either the thethese atrocities stories were
just fabricated entirely, orthey were or they were
exaggerated, and that theGermans really behaved quite
well, and that Allied propagandaMills just churned this stuff
(07:20):
out in order to mobilize publicopinion behind the war. So I was
curious about this, and I justbegan looking into it more. And
I really one point, decided towrite a short book, because I
discovered, especially if youlook at the older military
historians, older books, that infact, the Germans behave very
brutally and callously towardsthe Belgian civilian population,
(07:42):
and they killed about 6000 inthe first month of the war,
really, over a period of aboutthree weeks. They're very bloody
minded. And
Anne Marie Cannon (07:56):
so basically, the jumping off point for Jeff
lipkes book and his research isthis discrepancy between the
accounts of what actuallyhappened in Belgium at the
opening of the invasion, oftenreferred to as the rape of
Belgium. There's this idea thatthe atrocities committed at the
(08:17):
hands of the Germans against theBelgian people was not really as
bad as indicated by survivorsfirst hand accounts that were
reported to the Britishgovernment in 1915 and accounts
taken after the war, there was,and still is a standing belief
the stories of civilianmassacres were nothing More than
(08:39):
propaganda designed to sell thewar to foreign governments,
including the United States, andto complicate things, there were
reports of specifically horrificacts that did not actually
happen, sensationalized accountstold by Non witnesses, which in
(09:00):
the end, helped to de legitimizefirst hand witness accounts.
Jeff Lipkes (09:07):
It's the historian, subsequently, in the 20s and
30s, kind of seized on these, onthese stories, and said, Look,
you know, these were all made upin order to discredit the real
killings that that the Germanscommitted, the real war crimes.
Now, in the I've lookedcarefully through newspapers for
the first months of the war,these stories do not appear in
any newspapers, any reporters,but, but they're stories of
(09:31):
fingers being enhanced, beingchopped off, breast being
chopped off, eyes being gougedout there. They're these gory
tall tales that really did nothappen the Germans. So
Anne Marie Cannon (09:43):
why do you think they because I've read
about this, and this is one ofthe problems with, apparently,
the credibility of the realstories that happen. Why do you
think that exists? Well, I
Jeff Lipkes (09:56):
you know it was really this. The Belgian
civilians were pretty accurate.
Because. I looked very carefullyat the these appendices, this
one appendix in particular. Butthere was the soldiers, for
whatever reason they just, youknow, they were repeating gossip
that they heard. It never tookplace in their own company or
their own regiment. It wasalways somewhere else. But, and
then, you know, these were, youknow, you could see why these
(10:20):
would have sort ofsensationalistic appeal, because
there was even a story aboutBritish soldier being crucified
nailed to a barn door. Sothey're just more lurid than
than simply men being taken outof their homes, marched to a
(10:42):
town square or to a field andgunned down. I mean that because
that's what they did repeatedly.
Yeah, so but, but I do, but, youknow, I do want to repeat that
the British press, I looked atseven or eight of the leading
dailies, and they were very theytalked about some of the real
killings that went on, in somedetail, especially Leuven, which
(11:05):
was the Oxford of Belgium, thatkind of lot of coverage. There
are very, very few stories, youknow, one or two were carefully
qualified by the reporters aboutthese really outrageous and gory
atrocities. So, so I don't knowjust must have taken root after
the publication of theseappendices in April. But in any
(11:27):
case, so
Anne Marie Cannon (11:28):
and that the atrocities and the thing that is
referred to by some as the rapeof Belgium never really
happened. And so okay, let meask you one question about that.
Do you think that it was becausethey were just trying to play it
down on purpose, or becausethere was that evidence that no,
these stories really didn'thappen. So none of the stories
(11:51):
happened. Part of
Jeff Lipkes (11:52):
a general revulsion to the war was that also was
that the British commanders werebuffoons and American commanders
too. The line was they werelions led by donkeys, you know,
something like that. Along withthat was a misinterpretation of
the Versailles Treaty. It wasbecause the Versailles Treaty
was taken to be this harsh,draconian, totally unfair peace
(12:19):
arrangement. And it's just nottrue. Really, there's all this.
This was just one part of thegeneral reaction to the war. And
what's interesting is that inthe it was not it was actually
both on the left and the right,but primarily on the left that
these store, these skepticismwas repeated in, in in in
(12:41):
America and in and in Britain.
But in Germany, it was the rightwing that obviously wanted to
discredit the stories about thebehavior of the Germans in
Belgium, and was left wing thatwas really interested in
exposing but it really happened.
So it's kind of an interestingswitch there. So
Anne Marie Cannon (12:58):
in a weird twist of history, different
countries, different factions indifferent countries, at
different times, had somethingto gain from the sanitizing of
the atrocities committed at theopening of World War One against
the Belgian people. Well. So theway that I come into this story
and into your book is I grew up.
My mother was Belgian. She wasborn in Belgium. She was seven
(13:24):
years old in World War Two whenthe Germans invade a harrowing
story. That is what thedocumentary is about. It's about
her experience through thefilter of her daughter, me, but
also she, sadly, she died twoyears ago. We I do have some
personal interviews with her inBelgium. So I grew up with these
(13:47):
stories. And one of the storiesthat I was told was about World
War One, and it was about mymother's great aunt, and her
name was Adele Ubon, Charlie aand my mother was close to
Adele. And I think about it,because I thought, well, she was
a great aunt. How close couldyou have been? I have a great
nephew. You know, it means moreto me now I you know, it hits
(14:10):
home a lot more so my motherwould tell this story about
Adele's family was massacred inan aqueduct beneath the bridge
in Neff, which is right acrossthe moose river from Danah. And
you even wrote in your book thatthe Neff massacres were
especially horrific. So I knewthis story. It was kind of a
(14:32):
legend in the family. We knewthat. We knew the story about my
mother, because she she talked alittle bit about that too. But
later on. Flash forward, mymother's in her late 70s, and I
am in grad school, and I Mybackground is I'm a storyteller.
So I was getting my master'sdegree in creative and
Professional Writing, and I wasstudying multimedia writing,
(14:54):
because I was really interestedin the different ways that you
could tell. You know. Storiesthat I could tell stories. So I
started this journey of thisdocumentary and the podcast
episode one is actually thebeginning of that journey. That
was a project I did for school,probably about two years ago. I
was contacted by a cousin. Thecousin guy Charlie A is actually
(15:17):
the grandson of Adele Obion,Charlie, a guy's father George,
was one of the three children ofAdele Ubon who survived the
massacre beneath the aqueductand Neff Belgium in 1914 and he
actually sent me a link to yourbook, and that's how this all
(15:39):
started. And what became of thatis that, you know, you have a
very detailed for first accountthat talks about what happened
to Adele's family. The detailsjust make it so much more real
to us. And as I startedresearching this, one of the
things I found out is exactlywhat you talk about, and the
(15:59):
fact that, basically, this ideaof the rape of Belgian was a
farce, it was propaganda, and itdidn't really happen. And yet,
you know, in my family, this hasalways been a kind of a part of
our family narrative, so that'show I found you, and that's why
(16:20):
this is so important to me. Andone of the other things that I
found really frustrating wasthat whole idea that the history
books and whatever I was readingwas telling me, oh, it really
wasn't that bad, and it was thatbad, and it is carried in the
psyche of my mother. And flashforward, the Germans invade
(16:40):
Belgium, and, uh, World War Two.
Where's my mother staying? She'sstaying right there in front of
that aqueduct where those peoplewere killed. She's seven years
old, and this legend is, youknow, ingrained in her head, and
she was already afraid of theGermans. And oh, my god, the
Germans are coming again, andher father is off in France
fighting the war. So in herescape to France is a harrowing
(17:05):
story. So I was reallyfrustrated. And I don't know if
hurt is the right word, but I'lljust use that word I was, I was
kind of hurt and offended atthis idea that these horrible
things didn't happen. Yeah,
Jeff Lipkes (17:19):
I sympathize completely, because I don't have
relatives in Belgium, but I amnot Belgian myself, but I, I
felt the same thing, this senseof kind of outrage, the
injustice it was done to theBelgians. You know, one time
with the with the invasion, butthen in in Marie, and
(17:40):
discouraging the testimony,because there just, there's so
much testimony. And
Anne Marie Cannon (17:45):
I just have to say it was such a gift to
find you and to find this book.
Like I said, my mother was veryfond of her great aunt. There
was the family legend, and thestory that had been passed down,
the account that you give in thebook of Adele and her family
actually clarifies a lot ofthings that were, we were kind
(18:06):
of miss telling each other,because I feel like I can count
more on Adele's account than ourfamily legend. And it's
interesting that whole idea ofhow, you know, we pass things
down from generation togeneration, but that was such a
gift for for me and also for mymother, to be able to read that
account. I do have to say thatI've been reading the book again
(18:29):
getting ready for thisinterview. It's very heavy. It's
very heavy. And it's like, Ihave to, you know, step I had to
step back from it. But it's,it's painful. It's a painful
history.
Jeff Lipkes (18:42):
It is, yeah, but it was criticized for, you know,
excessive obsession with withthe grim details. But it's I
just wanted, just didn't want tohear that the myth about the
invention about the Britishpropaganda machine and the
invention of so called Belgianatrocities. But, but, of course,
(19:04):
the but you know you never yourobjective in writing a book has
never realized, you know, youthat's still, people still
persist. And although historiansare better now, but journalists
still will disparage whathappened.
Anne Marie Cannon (19:19):
So why did you write the book? Ultimately,
why did you want to put that outthere? Well,
Jeff Lipkes (19:26):
again, it was just a sense of of injustice, of of
correcting thismisinterpretation, especially in
the this film The most bestsource of information, because
it was shown in in classroomsacross the country, year after
year, was this film called TheGreat War and modern memory,
something like that of Jaywinter was the author, and it
(19:49):
was just disseminating thiserroneous picture. And I just
felt kind of aggrieved aboutthat, and I just wanted to set
the record straight. I couldn'tbelieve, you know, going back
and first reading. You know,first I read these military
story barbara tuchman is acertainly popular author known
to a lot of people the guns ofAugust. And she actually gets
(20:10):
it, some of it right, as far asthe scope of the killings and
and then some of the militaryhistorians do. But then, you
know, then there's just tons ofsources in French. But collect
because all official documentswere in French, even for events
that took place in in thenorthern Belgium, in the Flemish
(20:31):
speaking areas provinces. But,but there's, and I did want to,
you know, give credit to I'veused different sources to put
together this story, but a veryimportant one was this multi
volume work by two priests, orthere were clergymen of some
kind under Schmidt and Neylandwho, I think partly because they
(20:53):
were priests, were able to getpeople to open up afterwards and
tell and tell in detail theirtheir stories, they were trusted
figures and and so. So a lot ofthe details do come from them.
They, you know, in the early,early 20s, they were
interviewing the survivors, so,but there was, there's just lots
(21:14):
and lots of material out there,and it was just an urge, desire.
And again, I thought it wasgoing to be very short, but the
first book was over 800 pages. Ithought it's going to be a very
short look at what the Germansactually did, but I just got
carried away, and I went toBelgium, Belgium, I think, three
times, and looked at the Britisharchives as well, because all
the priests in every diocesewere required to submit reports
(21:39):
about what happened theirdiocese. So in all of the
Archdiocese, their records ofthese priests, their
handwriting, you know what? Whatwent on? And so,
Anne Marie Cannon (21:50):
who did they read? Who did they submit the
reports to
Jeff Lipkes (21:54):
the bishops? Okay, the bishop is in methylene or
Moline. Is this called inFrench, and Liege and the three
bishops. And so they're in thosearchives. So they had to write
these reports and and then,plus, just lots of people just
(22:14):
published short memoirs. Andthere were new, you know,
newspapers and journal articlesof eyewitness accounts of what
happened. So there's just a lotof material out. There's just no
excuse for repeating these liesabout what went on.
Anne Marie Cannon (22:29):
So are you Belgian? Are you French? Do you
speak French?
Jeff Lipkes (22:35):
Yeah. Do we read?
And my spoken French is nowpretty terrible, but it was okay
enough to talk to people. Thenit was I wished it was better,
but I did interview peopleactually, and did not. There
were still a few survivors, butI mostly, I didn't speak with
any of them, but I did speakwith nieces, nephews, children
and grandchildren. So I did getsome first hand stories, some
(23:00):
stories directly that were not,had not been published or were
not in archives,
Anne Marie Cannon (23:07):
right? Wow.
So I want to read this excerpt.
It talks about, you know, theidea, and one of the things I
really appreciate about yourbook is that you're sharing
these stories. There are peoplewho experience them, and
everybody's perception isdifferent, but it is still a
(23:27):
really important part of thefabric of the truth in the
bigger picture. And so one ofthe things you say is, there is
no one story to tell. There arerather multiple points of view
on a given historical event, andone has to make heroic efforts
(23:48):
to avoid privileging those ofthe dominant race, class or
gender, or in wars thetriumphant nation or colonizing
power. I thought that was reallypowerful. And kind of, you know,
consolidates everything you justsaid about why you wrote the
book. For me, that's the truth.
There's scholarly truth, andthen there is a bigger, greater
(24:10):
truth, which takes intoconsideration the facts, but
also the emotional experience ofpeople. I feel like this is what
you do with this book. And I,you know, really appreciate it.
This
Jeff Lipkes (24:24):
is, you know, there's a maxim history written
by the winners, but in thiscase, it actually, it actually
wasn't because it was the Germanversion that really got
disseminated and propagated,because the Germans were very
after the war. They were veryinterested in clearing their
name, and so they spent a lot ofmoney and had a lot of people
working on these magazines andjournals that were were
(24:49):
dedicated to putting out theirstory, and they succeeded the
version. You know, their theirversion got accepted and taken
into adopted by historians.
Anne Marie Cannon (25:00):
And then you also say, in the book, you say,
however, I believe theunderlying reason for the
continued unwillingness ofjournalists and popularizers to
acknowledge what happened inBelgium in August 1914 has to do
with the seductive appeal ofrevisionism views inspired by
the bitter reaction to the GreatWar during the 1920s and early
(25:21):
30s, though long rejected bymost scholars, have retained
their grip on public opinionbriefly. Revisionists believe
that all the nations that wentto war in 1914 were equally to
blame. They slithered into war.
I thought that was reallyinteresting. And what could you
tell me a little bit more aboutthis idea of revisionism?
Jeff Lipkes (25:43):
Well, sure, it's attractive to to think of
yourself as skeptical, cynicalas you know, our parents and
grandparents were swept away bypropaganda, but we, we know
better, you know, where it's avery self flattering idea, and
that was part of the attraction.
And then a part of theattraction was a, you know, a
legitimate reaction to the kindof demonization of of the enemy
(26:06):
that went on in all thecountries, you know, especially
in America.
Anne Marie Cannon (26:13):
So I want you to tell us about the title, and
specifically the wordrehearsals. Why that choice of
words?
Jeff Lipkes (26:20):
Yeah, well, I got some flow for that, but I did
that. I did try to explain inthe in the afterward, a little
bit more about that, becauseobviously you can't this is not
comparable to the Holocaust. Itis in some ways comparable to
what happened in when theGermans invaded Poland. Now they
were very careful when they wentinto Belgium the second time
(26:43):
they were originally, they werecareful about treating the
civilians. They remember whathad happened and how much money
it had cost them to try to erasethe image of the barbaric Han,
you know. So they had very closeinstructor from Hitler on down
to behave better towards theBelgians. But then there was
actually this, this time ofgenuine resistance that formed
(27:05):
after a couple of years. And Ithink 70,000 Belgian civilians
were killed, as you know, insomewhat connected to the
resistance. And not, you know,29,000 Jews and others, others
were killed in allied bombingtoo. But, but in Eastern Europe,
they just behaved with the samebrutality. And my point is,
(27:26):
really, when in rehearsals wasthat it was not, you know, some
people give too much credit toHitler. He was only in power for
six years before the inreshaping German mentality and
German outlook on things. He wasin power for six years when
World War Two started, and youcan certainly affect the mindset
(27:46):
of children in school, but butgrown ups, no, you know, they
these, some of the ideas thatwere responsible for the
barbaric behavior of the Germansin the war. Long predate the
Nazi coming to power, but theywere form of the nationalism
took in Germany, the form ofGerman militarism, which was
(28:08):
very distinctive from the, youknow, for instance, dueling,
which was part of the militaryethos, was important, very, very
important in Germany in the late19th century, early 20th
century, it had really died outelsewhere in Europe. There was
no people didn't guys didn'ttool anymore. So as it's very
(28:30):
different culture, and certainlydifferent military culture,
there was a, just aglorification of, for instance,
another real quick comparison,honor was so important. You were
always you carried out a duel orchallenged somebody through duel
to defend your honor, or thehonor of the Kaiser's honor
(28:50):
because you were wearingKaiser's uniform. There are 45
words with the prefix of honorin German, and they're only, I
think about five in English. Sohonor was very, very important.
It was very important. They werevery status, conscience,
conscious, conscious. And youhad to be a reserve if you
wanted to be anybody, you had tobe reserve officer. Every guy, a
(29:13):
middle class man, was a reserveofficer. And you were taught,
there's another there's anotherGerman word, Schneider, kite,
sharpness. You were taught thatthe duty of the officer was to
be very easy, easily offended,ready to challenge somebody to a
duel, to not put up with anynonsense, to be just, you know,
(29:33):
intolerant. And that was, that'spart of the culture. You know,
there are many, many examples ofthis. So there are these
differences. Another differenceis the nationalism was just much
more extreme and and it also wasduring the war, everybody became
more nationalistic, and peoplewere nationalistic before the
war, but it wasn't quite wasmore kind of celebrating your
(29:55):
own history and your ownculture, but the Germans just
carried a couple steps first.
Are. And, you know, there arethese wonderful statements
about, you know, God, becauseLutheran pastors in particular,
authored these kind of hairraising sermons about God's
Germans being God's chosenpeople, and God must be pleased
to see himself mirrored in theGerman soul. You know, these,
(30:15):
these historians, the writers inallied countries and in neutral
countries, just had a field daygoing through these pamphlets
published by Lutheran pastors,finding these gems and the other
the other factor was antiCatholicism too. That was
responsible for the treatment ofthe Pelican population, because
(30:38):
they just thought they werebewitched by their priests. And
45 priests were were executed inthose just a short time, you
know, less than three weeks,because they were supposedly
leading this guerilla campaign,you know, just ridiculous. So,
so that was a factor as well.
(30:59):
And so anyway, all these thingspredate, predate Hitler and
contributed to the behavior ofthe Germans during Second World
War. That was, that was thepoint, the point of the the idea
of the title, of rehearsals.
Anne Marie Cannon (31:15):
So I guess what I got out of the title was
this idea that the brutalitythat was carried out upon the
Belgian somehow translated intothe brutality of the Holocaust.
Am I wrong about that? Well,
Jeff Lipkes (31:32):
that's the closer analogy. Is what I mentioned is
the treatment of Polishcivilians just doing exactly
what they did in Belgium, excepton a much bigger scale. In the
same time period, they killedlike, I think, 70 or 18,000 This
is the army before the realpersecution of Poles begins,
just burning villages, shootingthe all the men, usually all the
(31:53):
men, sometimes women, but, butthere is this interesting fact
that that Hitler, that Hitler'santi semitism was never
originally that important a partof his appeal. I mean, he he
actually had to tone down theanti semitism when he won his
big victories in the 30s. I usedto ask students, you know, guess
how many votes Hitler got in theelection night the 1929
(32:16):
election. All right, he got. Hegot, I believe, 2.7% of the
vote, he was not. He's not apopular figure until the Great
Depression hit. So yes, ofcourse, Truman's were anti
semitic, but they weren't nearlyas anti semitic as in the if you
had been asked in the in the1900s you would have said Russia
(32:36):
and France, because fair, ifyou'd been asked in 1930 you
would have said poll, the pollsbecause of anti semitic
legislation. But of course,there had to be a lot of anti
semitism for everybody tocooperate. The people cooperated
with the Holocaust to carrythem. But I but there are other
there are these other factorsthat I was talking about could
(32:57):
figure in the treatment of Jewsas well as the treatment of
poles and other other EasternEuropeans. So, so that was what,
that was, the point that I wastrying to make, too. So there's,
there is some relevance for theHolocaust. One famous couplet
was, and the world may onceagain be healed by German ways.
(33:17):
Have this very exalted pride inGermany and and the one, one
Danish theologian who collected,one of many people who collected
these, these quotes concluded atthe end of his book that he was
trying to summarize what thewhat they said all these German
pastors, Germany is not thestrongest nation in the world,
but as a nation which, withoutcomparison, stands highest in
(33:40):
every respect determines thesole chosen people, the crown of
creation. All moral virtues arein the German nothing but his
natural, inborn qualities. Allthat is noble, good and
beautiful, can therefore bedescribed as German. It follows
that the German people as such,cannot possibly do wrong. It
will always be preserved fromwrongdoing by its inherent
(34:01):
nature, but I mean specificquotations. That was from the
summary by the Danishtheologian. Then there was just
the belief also that the smallBelgian civilians were told this
repeated this many times. Theywere told small nations are
going to disappear. I mean,Germany's destiny was European
hegemony, and many of them, manyyou keep reading this, this
(34:25):
freight, you know, soldiers, butmore often, officers would tell
somebody, cauldron, Belgium willdisappear, you know,
Anne Marie Cannon (34:32):
yeah, it's interesting, because it seems
like during the occupation, theBelgians, In both wars, were in
a state of limbo, and one ofthis compelling stories that I
talk about in the last episodethat I released, episode two of
the podcast, was my cousin'smother was a courier. She worked
(34:54):
for the census, and people wereagainst her because she was a.
Collab. They said she wascollaborating with the Germans.
And yet, that's not really howit went down. They would do
things like go out to the farms,because what the census was for
the Germans, and they would goout to the farms and take
inventory of their stock, youknow, the animals and the crops
(35:18):
and that type of thing. And thenthey would tell the farmers,
tell us how many you have. Andthen they would say, Okay, we're
going to report this many, andit would be a fraction of what
they have, and you need to hideyour livestock, or whatever it
was. And it just seemed like to,you know, to be in that place
(35:38):
of, this is my country. Thisisn't my country. You know, how
do I remain loyal to my country?
It's another totally interestingrabbit hole to go down. But, and
yet, they persevered.
Persevered. Somehow theypersevered. I want to read one
more excerpt that talks aboutsome of the things that we've
been talking about that Ihighlighted, and get kind of
(36:02):
your feedback about it. So thisis also in the forward to the
second edition, a couple ofquestions may occur to readers
at this juncture. It has beenasked for at least a generation,
and not only by Germans, howlong citizens of the Federal
Republic must be made to feelguilty for the murders committed
under the Nazi regime. Is it notunsporting to now add war crimes
(36:27):
committed by soldiers of thekasser Reich to the burden of
German guilt? Scrupuloushistorians can only answer that
the feelings of the descendantsof the individuals whose action
they described cannot be any oftheir concern. But it is also
safe to say that few historians,unlike ordering executions in
(36:48):
1914 believed in collectiveguilt, and fewer still, and
trans generational guilt.
Nonetheless, the actions of theGerman army in Belgium are part
of the historical record, andanyone wishing to explain German
history between 1871 and 1945needs to account for them. I had
somebody tell me about thisdocumentary that I'm doing. Who
(37:13):
would be interested in it,haven't the Germans paid enough?
What do you say about this ideaof, haven't they paid enough in
the German guilt? Well, first
Jeff Lipkes (37:24):
thing I want to say is I was accused by some critics
of like suggesting that thiswas, there was a German national
character. It was, was brutaland non humane and but, but I'm
certainly nothing that obviouslyGermans German, the Germans have
transformed themselves since thewar successive generations and
(37:49):
and they were different. Andbefore they were, you know,
before the, you know, theunification of Germany, they
were called, you know, thenation of of poets and scholars.
You know, they were not, theywere not pressure. Was always
militaristic. But the rest is,terminates, not at all. So, so I
(38:12):
was certainly not saying thatthis was in a these traits that
came out in the expressthemselves during the invasion
of Belgium. But again, I just,you know, it's, it's history, it
happened. And particularly, whatwas particularly imperative for
me was that it was, it wasblotted out. It was just
(38:33):
discredited. And I just wantedthat that story to be told, and
that people would not repeatthis misinformation about what
had happened. We're
Anne Marie Cannon (38:44):
going to stop here for today, but be sure to
join us next week when we pickup where we left off. With Jeff
lipkes, I need to warn you,though the subject matter is
quite disturbing and notsuitable for all audiences.
Jeff Lipkes (39:07):
Yeah, this, it was so vile. It was just, there was
no the what was incredible wasone of the women actually saw,
when she saw the soldiers withtheir guns level, she just, you
know, pleaded. I mean, shelooked pleadingly at them and
held up her baby, you know, herlittle infant. They still, they
(39:27):
still. They still open fire. Youknow, that was the order that
was given fire on them. It wasjust so heartless, and then
Anne Marie Cannon (39:42):
just a reminder, stay up to date with
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(40:05):
actions bump us up in thealgorithms of the website, which
in turn makes it easier forpeople to find us. You.
Anne, hello. My name is Anne Marie
cannon, and I'm the host ofarmchair historians. What's your
favorite history? Each episodebegins with this one question.
My guests come from all walks oflife, and are people who get
really excited about aparticular time, place or person
from our distant or not sodistant past, the jumping off
(00:22):
point is where they becomecurious, then enter the rabbit
hole into discovery. Somethrough scholarly research,
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(01:08):
like to support the show, becomea patron through Patreon, or buy
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Links to both in the EpisodeNotes.
Unknown (01:22):
You Hi,
Anne Marie Cannon (01:32):
I'm Anne Marie cannon, and you're
listening to the last trainleaving Belgium podcast, the
last train leaving Belgium is aBelgian rabbit production. Thank
you for joining us for episodethree, part one of the podcast,
Jeff Lipkes (02:01):
especially if you look at the older military
historians, older books, that infact, the Germans behaved very
brutally and callouslytowards the Belgian civilian
population, and they killedabout 6000 in the first month of
the war, really, over a periodof about three weeks. They're
very bloody minded. And
Anne Marie Cannon (02:34):
in this episode, we speak to Jeff
lipkes, author of rehearsals theGerman army in Belgium, August
1914, which recounts the brutalworld war one invasion of
Belgium by the Germans. It's adisturbing part of history which
has been swept under the rug bygovernments and scholars alike.
(02:59):
The book also recounts thereason I cannot tell my mother's
story without first going backto what happened to her family
in World War One youthis is a supplemental limited
(03:23):
series podcast that is meant toaccompany the soon to be
released documentary. Stay up todate with the latest news on the
documentary, as well as thepodcast on social media. You can
find us on Twitter, Instagramand Facebook. Also be sure to
subscribe to us through yourfavorite podcast platform. If
(03:46):
you listen to us through Applepodcasts, be sure to subscribe
to the podcast and leave areview. All those actions bump
us up in the algorithms of thewebsite, which in turn makes it
easier for people to find us.
(04:08):
So we're here today with Jefflipkes. Jeff received his PhD
from Princeton. He has authoredseveral books, including the one
we'll be talking about today,rehearsals the German army in
Belgium, August 1914 whichdescribes what happened to
Belgian civilians when theGerman army invaded in August
1914 he has also writtenpolitics religion and classical
(04:32):
political economy in Britain,John Stuart Mill and his
followers, which, According tothe economic record, is
innovative, provoking andrevealing. His study redraws the
map of Mill's intellectualhistory, and according to the
economic journal, it is a firstrate addition to the mill
(04:52):
literature. Mr. Lipkes is alsoworking on a book about Sir
Edward Gray, the British foreignsecretary from 1904
Four to 1916 titled The lamps goout Sir Edward gray and the
origins of the First World War.
He is also, among other things,written articles on the history
of economics, the history ofeconomic thought and British
(05:13):
intellectual history. Welcome tothe show. Oh, thanks for
inviting me. Did I leaveanything out or get anything
wrong in that intro? I just, Ijust felt a twinge of guilt
about the shred with great book,because I put that aside for a
while. I'm working on somethingelse on, actually, on
contemporary anti semitism, butI will do plan to go back to so
(05:34):
interesting. What's Do you havea title for the new book that
you're working on? Well, I'm notsure title yet, interesting and
timely. So we're going to reallytalk about the first book. I
mentioned rehearsals the Germanarmy in Belgium, August 1914 if
you could just, you know, giveus some background about the
(05:55):
book.
Jeff Lipkes (05:57):
Well, okay, it's towards late in my teaching
career. I'm retired now. I wasteaching a lot of classes in
20th century Europe, 20thcentury world and then the world
wars. These are popular classes.
Unlike classes in the history ofeconomic thought, you get a
bigger draw. And so I got it,and I got into the two World
Wars. And what you run across inthe standard text and in the one
thing why the courses areattractive to students is you
(06:18):
wind up showing a lot ofdocumentary footage, especially
World War Two, because there'sso much good documentaries.
Anne Marie Cannon (06:25):
I don't know about you, but if I was given
the choice of listening tolectures about the theory of
economics or watchingdocumentaries about World War
One, I'd definitely pick thedocumentaries of World War One.
And
Jeff Lipkes (06:37):
there's that.
There's a standard one now, andit reflects the popular opinion
at the time, the authors werenot, you know, didn't know very
much about, really, what went onin Belgium. And that was the
consensus was that these socalled atrocities were just
manufactured by Britishpropaganda. They were trapped up
in London. Or some historiansaid that, well, you know, some
they did respond harshly toFrank tour. Frank tourists were
(07:00):
the supposed guerrillasharpshooters who, in fact,
didn't exist. There was nocivilian resistance to the
Germans. But either the thethese atrocities stories were
just fabricated entirely, orthey were or they were
exaggerated, and that theGermans really behaved quite
well, and that Allied propagandaMills just churned this stuff
(07:20):
out in order to mobilize publicopinion behind the war. So I was
curious about this, and I justbegan looking into it more. And
I really one point, decided towrite a short book, because I
discovered, especially if youlook at the older military
historians, older books, that infact, the Germans behave very
brutally and callously towardsthe Belgian civilian population,
(07:42):
and they killed about 6000 inthe first month of the war,
really, over a period of aboutthree weeks. They're very bloody
minded. And
Anne Marie Cannon (07:56):
so basically, the jumping off point for Jeff
lipkes book and his research isthis discrepancy between the
accounts of what actuallyhappened in Belgium at the
opening of the invasion, oftenreferred to as the rape of
Belgium. There's this idea thatthe atrocities committed at the
(08:17):
hands of the Germans against theBelgian people was not really as
bad as indicated by survivorsfirst hand accounts that were
reported to the Britishgovernment in 1915 and accounts
taken after the war, there was,and still is a standing belief
the stories of civilianmassacres were nothing More than
(08:39):
propaganda designed to sell thewar to foreign governments,
including the United States, andto complicate things, there were
reports of specifically horrificacts that did not actually
happen, sensationalized accountstold by Non witnesses, which in
(09:00):
the end, helped to de legitimizefirst hand witness accounts.
Jeff Lipkes (09:07):
It's the historian, subsequently, in the 20s and
30s, kind of seized on these, onthese stories, and said, Look,
you know, these were all made upin order to discredit the real
killings that that the Germanscommitted, the real war crimes.
Now, in the I've lookedcarefully through newspapers for
the first months of the war,these stories do not appear in
any newspapers, any reporters,but, but they're stories of
(09:31):
fingers being enhanced, beingchopped off, breast being
chopped off, eyes being gougedout there. They're these gory
tall tales that really did nothappen the Germans. So
Anne Marie Cannon (09:43):
why do you think they because I've read
about this, and this is one ofthe problems with, apparently,
the credibility of the realstories that happen. Why do you
think that exists? Well, I
Jeff Lipkes (09:56):
you know it was really this. The Belgian
civilians were pretty accurate.
Because. I looked very carefullyat the these appendices, this
one appendix in particular. Butthere was the soldiers, for
whatever reason they just, youknow, they were repeating gossip
that they heard. It never tookplace in their own company or
their own regiment. It wasalways somewhere else. But, and
then, you know, these were, youknow, you could see why these
(10:20):
would have sort ofsensationalistic appeal, because
there was even a story aboutBritish soldier being crucified
nailed to a barn door. Sothey're just more lurid than
than simply men being taken outof their homes, marched to a
(10:42):
town square or to a field andgunned down. I mean that because
that's what they did repeatedly.
Yeah, so but, but I do, but, youknow, I do want to repeat that
the British press, I looked atseven or eight of the leading
dailies, and they were very theytalked about some of the real
killings that went on, in somedetail, especially Leuven, which
(11:05):
was the Oxford of Belgium, thatkind of lot of coverage. There
are very, very few stories, youknow, one or two were carefully
qualified by the reporters aboutthese really outrageous and gory
atrocities. So, so I don't knowjust must have taken root after
the publication of theseappendices in April. But in any
(11:27):
case, so
Anne Marie Cannon (11:28):
and that the atrocities and the thing that is
referred to by some as the rapeof Belgium never really
happened. And so okay, let meask you one question about that.
Do you think that it was becausethey were just trying to play it
down on purpose, or becausethere was that evidence that no,
these stories really didn'thappen. So none of the stories
(11:51):
happened. Part of
Jeff Lipkes (11:52):
a general revulsion to the war was that also was
that the British commanders werebuffoons and American commanders
too. The line was they werelions led by donkeys, you know,
something like that. Along withthat was a misinterpretation of
the Versailles Treaty. It wasbecause the Versailles Treaty
was taken to be this harsh,draconian, totally unfair peace
(12:19):
arrangement. And it's just nottrue. Really, there's all this.
This was just one part of thegeneral reaction to the war. And
what's interesting is that inthe it was not it was actually
both on the left and the right,but primarily on the left that
these store, these skepticismwas repeated in, in in in
(12:41):
America and in and in Britain.
But in Germany, it was the rightwing that obviously wanted to
discredit the stories about thebehavior of the Germans in
Belgium, and was left wing thatwas really interested in
exposing but it really happened.
So it's kind of an interestingswitch there. So
Anne Marie Cannon (12:58):
in a weird twist of history, different
countries, different factions indifferent countries, at
different times, had somethingto gain from the sanitizing of
the atrocities committed at theopening of World War One against
the Belgian people. Well. So theway that I come into this story
and into your book is I grew up.
My mother was Belgian. She wasborn in Belgium. She was seven
(13:24):
years old in World War Two whenthe Germans invade a harrowing
story. That is what thedocumentary is about. It's about
her experience through thefilter of her daughter, me, but
also she, sadly, she died twoyears ago. We I do have some
personal interviews with her inBelgium. So I grew up with these
(13:47):
stories. And one of the storiesthat I was told was about World
War One, and it was about mymother's great aunt, and her
name was Adele Ubon, Charlie aand my mother was close to
Adele. And I think about it,because I thought, well, she was
a great aunt. How close couldyou have been? I have a great
nephew. You know, it means moreto me now I you know, it hits
(14:10):
home a lot more so my motherwould tell this story about
Adele's family was massacred inan aqueduct beneath the bridge
in Neff, which is right acrossthe moose river from Danah. And
you even wrote in your book thatthe Neff massacres were
especially horrific. So I knewthis story. It was kind of a
(14:32):
legend in the family. We knewthat. We knew the story about my
mother, because she she talked alittle bit about that too. But
later on. Flash forward, mymother's in her late 70s, and I
am in grad school, and I Mybackground is I'm a storyteller.
So I was getting my master'sdegree in creative and
Professional Writing, and I wasstudying multimedia writing,
(14:54):
because I was really interestedin the different ways that you
could tell. You know. Storiesthat I could tell stories. So I
started this journey of thisdocumentary and the podcast
episode one is actually thebeginning of that journey. That
was a project I did for school,probably about two years ago. I
was contacted by a cousin. Thecousin guy Charlie A is actually
(15:17):
the grandson of Adele Obion,Charlie, a guy's father George,
was one of the three children ofAdele Ubon who survived the
massacre beneath the aqueductand Neff Belgium in 1914 and he
actually sent me a link to yourbook, and that's how this all
(15:39):
started. And what became of thatis that, you know, you have a
very detailed for first accountthat talks about what happened
to Adele's family. The detailsjust make it so much more real
to us. And as I startedresearching this, one of the
things I found out is exactlywhat you talk about, and the
(15:59):
fact that, basically, this ideaof the rape of Belgian was a
farce, it was propaganda, and itdidn't really happen. And yet,
you know, in my family, this hasalways been a kind of a part of
our family narrative, so that'show I found you, and that's why
(16:20):
this is so important to me. Andone of the other things that I
found really frustrating wasthat whole idea that the history
books and whatever I was readingwas telling me, oh, it really
wasn't that bad, and it was thatbad, and it is carried in the
psyche of my mother. And flashforward, the Germans invade
(16:40):
Belgium, and, uh, World War Two.
Where's my mother staying? She'sstaying right there in front of
that aqueduct where those peoplewere killed. She's seven years
old, and this legend is, youknow, ingrained in her head, and
she was already afraid of theGermans. And oh, my god, the
Germans are coming again, andher father is off in France
fighting the war. So in herescape to France is a harrowing
(17:05):
story. So I was reallyfrustrated. And I don't know if
hurt is the right word, but I'lljust use that word I was, I was
kind of hurt and offended atthis idea that these horrible
things didn't happen. Yeah,
Jeff Lipkes (17:19):
I sympathize completely, because I don't have
relatives in Belgium, but I amnot Belgian myself, but I, I
felt the same thing, this senseof kind of outrage, the
injustice it was done to theBelgians. You know, one time
with the with the invasion, butthen in in Marie, and
(17:40):
discouraging the testimony,because there just, there's so
much testimony. And
Anne Marie Cannon (17:45):
I just have to say it was such a gift to
find you and to find this book.
Like I said, my mother was veryfond of her great aunt. There
was the family legend, and thestory that had been passed down,
the account that you give in thebook of Adele and her family
actually clarifies a lot ofthings that were, we were kind
(18:06):
of miss telling each other,because I feel like I can count
more on Adele's account than ourfamily legend. And it's
interesting that whole idea ofhow, you know, we pass things
down from generation togeneration, but that was such a
gift for for me and also for mymother, to be able to read that
account. I do have to say thatI've been reading the book again
(18:29):
getting ready for thisinterview. It's very heavy. It's
very heavy. And it's like, Ihave to, you know, step I had to
step back from it. But it's,it's painful. It's a painful
history.
Jeff Lipkes (18:42):
It is, yeah, but it was criticized for, you know,
excessive obsession with withthe grim details. But it's I
just wanted, just didn't want tohear that the myth about the
invention about the Britishpropaganda machine and the
invention of so called Belgianatrocities. But, but, of course,
(19:04):
the but you know you never yourobjective in writing a book has
never realized, you know, youthat's still, people still
persist. And although historiansare better now, but journalists
still will disparage whathappened.
Anne Marie Cannon (19:19):
So why did you write the book? Ultimately,
why did you want to put that outthere? Well,
Jeff Lipkes (19:26):
again, it was just a sense of of injustice, of of
correcting thismisinterpretation, especially in
the this film The most bestsource of information, because
it was shown in in classroomsacross the country, year after
year, was this film called TheGreat War and modern memory,
something like that of Jaywinter was the author, and it
(19:49):
was just disseminating thiserroneous picture. And I just
felt kind of aggrieved aboutthat, and I just wanted to set
the record straight. I couldn'tbelieve, you know, going back
and first reading. You know,first I read these military
story barbara tuchman is acertainly popular author known
to a lot of people the guns ofAugust. And she actually gets
(20:10):
it, some of it right, as far asthe scope of the killings and
and then some of the militaryhistorians do. But then, you
know, then there's just tons ofsources in French. But collect
because all official documentswere in French, even for events
that took place in in thenorthern Belgium, in the Flemish
(20:31):
speaking areas provinces. But,but there's, and I did want to,
you know, give credit to I'veused different sources to put
together this story, but a veryimportant one was this multi
volume work by two priests, orthere were clergymen of some
kind under Schmidt and Neylandwho, I think partly because they
(20:53):
were priests, were able to getpeople to open up afterwards and
tell and tell in detail theirtheir stories, they were trusted
figures and and so. So a lot ofthe details do come from them.
They, you know, in the early,early 20s, they were
interviewing the survivors, so,but there was, there's just lots
(21:14):
and lots of material out there,and it was just an urge, desire.
And again, I thought it wasgoing to be very short, but the
first book was over 800 pages. Ithought it's going to be a very
short look at what the Germansactually did, but I just got
carried away, and I went toBelgium, Belgium, I think, three
times, and looked at the Britisharchives as well, because all
the priests in every diocesewere required to submit reports
(21:39):
about what happened theirdiocese. So in all of the
Archdiocese, their records ofthese priests, their
handwriting, you know what? Whatwent on? And so,
Anne Marie Cannon (21:50):
who did they read? Who did they submit the
reports to
Jeff Lipkes (21:54):
the bishops? Okay, the bishop is in methylene or
Moline. Is this called inFrench, and Liege and the three
bishops. And so they're in thosearchives. So they had to write
these reports and and then,plus, just lots of people just
(22:14):
published short memoirs. Andthere were new, you know,
newspapers and journal articlesof eyewitness accounts of what
happened. So there's just a lotof material out. There's just no
excuse for repeating these liesabout what went on.
Anne Marie Cannon (22:29):
So are you Belgian? Are you French? Do you
speak French?
Jeff Lipkes (22:35):
Yeah. Do we read?
And my spoken French is nowpretty terrible, but it was okay
enough to talk to people. Thenit was I wished it was better,
but I did interview peopleactually, and did not. There
were still a few survivors, butI mostly, I didn't speak with
any of them, but I did speakwith nieces, nephews, children
and grandchildren. So I did getsome first hand stories, some
(23:00):
stories directly that were not,had not been published or were
not in archives,
Anne Marie Cannon (23:07):
right? Wow.
So I want to read this excerpt.
It talks about, you know, theidea, and one of the things I
really appreciate about yourbook is that you're sharing
these stories. There are peoplewho experience them, and
everybody's perception isdifferent, but it is still a
(23:27):
really important part of thefabric of the truth in the
bigger picture. And so one ofthe things you say is, there is
no one story to tell. There arerather multiple points of view
on a given historical event, andone has to make heroic efforts
(23:48):
to avoid privileging those ofthe dominant race, class or
gender, or in wars thetriumphant nation or colonizing
power. I thought that was reallypowerful. And kind of, you know,
consolidates everything you justsaid about why you wrote the
book. For me, that's the truth.
There's scholarly truth, andthen there is a bigger, greater
(24:10):
truth, which takes intoconsideration the facts, but
also the emotional experience ofpeople. I feel like this is what
you do with this book. And I,you know, really appreciate it.
This
Jeff Lipkes (24:24):
is, you know, there's a maxim history written
by the winners, but in thiscase, it actually, it actually
wasn't because it was the Germanversion that really got
disseminated and propagated,because the Germans were very
after the war. They were veryinterested in clearing their
name, and so they spent a lot ofmoney and had a lot of people
working on these magazines andjournals that were were
(24:49):
dedicated to putting out theirstory, and they succeeded the
version. You know, their theirversion got accepted and taken
into adopted by historians.
Anne Marie Cannon (25:00):
And then you also say, in the book, you say,
however, I believe theunderlying reason for the
continued unwillingness ofjournalists and popularizers to
acknowledge what happened inBelgium in August 1914 has to do
with the seductive appeal ofrevisionism views inspired by
the bitter reaction to the GreatWar during the 1920s and early
(25:21):
30s, though long rejected bymost scholars, have retained
their grip on public opinionbriefly. Revisionists believe
that all the nations that wentto war in 1914 were equally to
blame. They slithered into war.
I thought that was reallyinteresting. And what could you
tell me a little bit more aboutthis idea of revisionism?
Jeff Lipkes (25:43):
Well, sure, it's attractive to to think of
yourself as skeptical, cynicalas you know, our parents and
grandparents were swept away bypropaganda, but we, we know
better, you know, where it's avery self flattering idea, and
that was part of the attraction.
And then a part of theattraction was a, you know, a
legitimate reaction to the kindof demonization of of the enemy
(26:06):
that went on in all thecountries, you know, especially
in America.
Anne Marie Cannon (26:13):
So I want you to tell us about the title, and
specifically the wordrehearsals. Why that choice of
words?
Jeff Lipkes (26:20):
Yeah, well, I got some flow for that, but I did
that. I did try to explain inthe in the afterward, a little
bit more about that, becauseobviously you can't this is not
comparable to the Holocaust. Itis in some ways comparable to
what happened in when theGermans invaded Poland. Now they
were very careful when they wentinto Belgium the second time
(26:43):
they were originally, they werecareful about treating the
civilians. They remember whathad happened and how much money
it had cost them to try to erasethe image of the barbaric Han,
you know. So they had very closeinstructor from Hitler on down
to behave better towards theBelgians. But then there was
actually this, this time ofgenuine resistance that formed
(27:05):
after a couple of years. And Ithink 70,000 Belgian civilians
were killed, as you know, insomewhat connected to the
resistance. And not, you know,29,000 Jews and others, others
were killed in allied bombingtoo. But, but in Eastern Europe,
they just behaved with the samebrutality. And my point is,
(27:26):
really, when in rehearsals wasthat it was not, you know, some
people give too much credit toHitler. He was only in power for
six years before the inreshaping German mentality and
German outlook on things. He wasin power for six years when
World War Two started, and youcan certainly affect the mindset
(27:46):
of children in school, but butgrown ups, no, you know, they
these, some of the ideas thatwere responsible for the
barbaric behavior of the Germansin the war. Long predate the
Nazi coming to power, but theywere form of the nationalism
took in Germany, the form ofGerman militarism, which was
(28:08):
very distinctive from the, youknow, for instance, dueling,
which was part of the militaryethos, was important, very, very
important in Germany in the late19th century, early 20th
century, it had really died outelsewhere in Europe. There was
no people didn't guys didn'ttool anymore. So as it's very
(28:30):
different culture, and certainlydifferent military culture,
there was a, just aglorification of, for instance,
another real quick comparison,honor was so important. You were
always you carried out a duel orchallenged somebody through duel
to defend your honor, or thehonor of the Kaiser's honor
(28:50):
because you were wearingKaiser's uniform. There are 45
words with the prefix of honorin German, and they're only, I
think about five in English. Sohonor was very, very important.
It was very important. They werevery status, conscience,
conscious, conscious. And youhad to be a reserve if you
wanted to be anybody, you had tobe reserve officer. Every guy, a
(29:13):
middle class man, was a reserveofficer. And you were taught,
there's another there's anotherGerman word, Schneider, kite,
sharpness. You were taught thatthe duty of the officer was to
be very easy, easily offended,ready to challenge somebody to a
duel, to not put up with anynonsense, to be just, you know,
(29:33):
intolerant. And that was, that'spart of the culture. You know,
there are many, many examples ofthis. So there are these
differences. Another differenceis the nationalism was just much
more extreme and and it also wasduring the war, everybody became
more nationalistic, and peoplewere nationalistic before the
war, but it wasn't quite wasmore kind of celebrating your
(29:55):
own history and your ownculture, but the Germans just
carried a couple steps first.
Are. And, you know, there arethese wonderful statements
about, you know, God, becauseLutheran pastors in particular,
authored these kind of hairraising sermons about God's
Germans being God's chosenpeople, and God must be pleased
to see himself mirrored in theGerman soul. You know, these,
(30:15):
these historians, the writers inallied countries and in neutral
countries, just had a field daygoing through these pamphlets
published by Lutheran pastors,finding these gems and the other
the other factor was antiCatholicism too. That was
responsible for the treatment ofthe Pelican population, because
(30:38):
they just thought they werebewitched by their priests. And
45 priests were were executed inthose just a short time, you
know, less than three weeks,because they were supposedly
leading this guerilla campaign,you know, just ridiculous. So,
so that was a factor as well.
(30:59):
And so anyway, all these thingspredate, predate Hitler and
contributed to the behavior ofthe Germans during Second World
War. That was, that was thepoint, the point of the the idea
of the title, of rehearsals.
Anne Marie Cannon (31:15):
So I guess what I got out of the title was
this idea that the brutalitythat was carried out upon the
Belgian somehow translated intothe brutality of the Holocaust.
Am I wrong about that? Well,
Jeff Lipkes (31:32):
that's the closer analogy. Is what I mentioned is
the treatment of Polishcivilians just doing exactly
what they did in Belgium, excepton a much bigger scale. In the
same time period, they killedlike, I think, 70 or 18,000 This
is the army before the realpersecution of Poles begins,
just burning villages, shootingthe all the men, usually all the
(31:53):
men, sometimes women, but, butthere is this interesting fact
that that Hitler, that Hitler'santi semitism was never
originally that important a partof his appeal. I mean, he he
actually had to tone down theanti semitism when he won his
big victories in the 30s. I usedto ask students, you know, guess
how many votes Hitler got in theelection night the 1929
(32:16):
election. All right, he got. Hegot, I believe, 2.7% of the
vote, he was not. He's not apopular figure until the Great
Depression hit. So yes, ofcourse, Truman's were anti
semitic, but they weren't nearlyas anti semitic as in the if you
had been asked in the in the1900s you would have said Russia
(32:36):
and France, because fair, ifyou'd been asked in 1930 you
would have said poll, the pollsbecause of anti semitic
legislation. But of course,there had to be a lot of anti
semitism for everybody tocooperate. The people cooperated
with the Holocaust to carrythem. But I but there are other
there are these other factorsthat I was talking about could
(32:57):
figure in the treatment of Jewsas well as the treatment of
poles and other other EasternEuropeans. So, so that was what,
that was, the point that I wastrying to make, too. So there's,
there is some relevance for theHolocaust. One famous couplet
was, and the world may onceagain be healed by German ways.
(33:17):
Have this very exalted pride inGermany and and the one, one
Danish theologian who collected,one of many people who collected
these, these quotes concluded atthe end of his book that he was
trying to summarize what thewhat they said all these German
pastors, Germany is not thestrongest nation in the world,
but as a nation which, withoutcomparison, stands highest in
(33:40):
every respect determines thesole chosen people, the crown of
creation. All moral virtues arein the German nothing but his
natural, inborn qualities. Allthat is noble, good and
beautiful, can therefore bedescribed as German. It follows
that the German people as such,cannot possibly do wrong. It
will always be preserved fromwrongdoing by its inherent
(34:01):
nature, but I mean specificquotations. That was from the
summary by the Danishtheologian. Then there was just
the belief also that the smallBelgian civilians were told this
repeated this many times. Theywere told small nations are
going to disappear. I mean,Germany's destiny was European
hegemony, and many of them, manyyou keep reading this, this
(34:25):
freight, you know, soldiers, butmore often, officers would tell
somebody, cauldron, Belgium willdisappear, you know,
Anne Marie Cannon (34:32):
yeah, it's interesting, because it seems
like during the occupation, theBelgians, In both wars, were in
a state of limbo, and one ofthis compelling stories that I
talk about in the last episodethat I released, episode two of
the podcast, was my cousin'smother was a courier. She worked
(34:54):
for the census, and people wereagainst her because she was a.
Collab. They said she wascollaborating with the Germans.
And yet, that's not really howit went down. They would do
things like go out to the farms,because what the census was for
the Germans, and they would goout to the farms and take
inventory of their stock, youknow, the animals and the crops
(35:18):
and that type of thing. And thenthey would tell the farmers,
tell us how many you have. Andthen they would say, Okay, we're
going to report this many, andit would be a fraction of what
they have, and you need to hideyour livestock, or whatever it
was. And it just seemed like to,you know, to be in that place
(35:38):
of, this is my country. Thisisn't my country. You know, how
do I remain loyal to my country?
It's another totally interestingrabbit hole to go down. But, and
yet, they persevered.
Persevered. Somehow theypersevered. I want to read one
more excerpt that talks aboutsome of the things that we've
been talking about that Ihighlighted, and get kind of
(36:02):
your feedback about it. So thisis also in the forward to the
second edition, a couple ofquestions may occur to readers
at this juncture. It has beenasked for at least a generation,
and not only by Germans, howlong citizens of the Federal
Republic must be made to feelguilty for the murders committed
under the Nazi regime. Is it notunsporting to now add war crimes
(36:27):
committed by soldiers of thekasser Reich to the burden of
German guilt? Scrupuloushistorians can only answer that
the feelings of the descendantsof the individuals whose action
they described cannot be any oftheir concern. But it is also
safe to say that few historians,unlike ordering executions in
(36:48):
1914 believed in collectiveguilt, and fewer still, and
trans generational guilt.
Nonetheless, the actions of theGerman army in Belgium are part
of the historical record, andanyone wishing to explain German
history between 1871 and 1945needs to account for them. I had
somebody tell me about thisdocumentary that I'm doing. Who
(37:13):
would be interested in it,haven't the Germans paid enough?
What do you say about this ideaof, haven't they paid enough in
the German guilt? Well, first
Jeff Lipkes (37:24):
thing I want to say is I was accused by some critics
of like suggesting that thiswas, there was a German national
character. It was, was brutaland non humane and but, but I'm
certainly nothing that obviouslyGermans German, the Germans have
transformed themselves since thewar successive generations and
(37:49):
and they were different. Andbefore they were, you know,
before the, you know, theunification of Germany, they
were called, you know, thenation of of poets and scholars.
You know, they were not, theywere not pressure. Was always
militaristic. But the rest is,terminates, not at all. So, so I
(38:12):
was certainly not saying thatthis was in a these traits that
came out in the expressthemselves during the invasion
of Belgium. But again, I just,you know, it's, it's history, it
happened. And particularly, whatwas particularly imperative for
me was that it was, it wasblotted out. It was just
(38:33):
discredited. And I just wantedthat that story to be told, and
that people would not repeatthis misinformation about what
had happened. We're
Anne Marie Cannon (38:44):
going to stop here for today, but be sure to
join us next week when we pickup where we left off. With Jeff
lipkes, I need to warn you,though the subject matter is
quite disturbing and notsuitable for all audiences.
Jeff Lipkes (39:07):
Yeah, this, it was so vile. It was just, there was
no the what was incredible wasone of the women actually saw,
when she saw the soldiers withtheir guns level, she just, you
know, pleaded. I mean, shelooked pleadingly at them and
held up her baby, you know, herlittle infant. They still, they
(39:27):
still. They still open fire. Youknow, that was the order that
was given fire on them. It wasjust so heartless, and then
Anne Marie Cannon (39:42):
just a reminder, stay up to date with
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(40:05):
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