Episode Transcript
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Jeff (00:07):
Welcome back to Art Supply
Insiders.
My name is Jeff Morrow andtoday we're talking with George
and Tatiana.
George and Tatiana have acompany called Natural Pigments.
Did I say all that correctly?
George (00:23):
That's correct,
absolutely.
Jeff (00:26):
Well, thank you so much
for being with us today.
Can you give us a little bit ofhistory on who you are and what
it is that you bring to ouraudience?
George (00:38):
So Natural Pigments is
somewhat an unusual company in
that Art Supply Company in thatwe manufacture products that are
, I would say, closer tohistorical reproductions as
possible.
Now, there has to be shortcutsin that.
(00:59):
Obviously, if we wanted to makelet's say we make oil paint and
watercolors, and if we wantedto make oil paint as
historically accurate, then wewould have to actually grow wild
flax seeds and brush them, andwe'd have to, you know, we'd
have to really go down that path.
But what we do is we don'tinclude modern additives in the
(01:23):
oil paints and watercolors, sotheir behavior tends to be more
like historical reproductions ofoil paint or watercolors, but
watercolors especially at theend of the 18th or beginning of
the 19th century.
And so that was a differencethat was kind of discovered
(01:47):
along the way we thought aboutmaking.
We actually started making oroffering pigments.
That's how it all started.
Tatiana (01:54):
We should start even a
little bit before, because
George was an artist a long timeago.
Jeff (02:01):
Long time.
Tatiana (02:02):
Yes, long time ago.
And so he, somehow life broughthim to iconography.
And if your audience doesn'tknow what is iconography, it's a
religious art and that's whaticons are done for the churches.
And George, just like nothingmy husband does anything easy or
(02:27):
simple.
So he went to Russia to learnthat, because he understood then
one thing, to learn that justtechnical aspect of the icons.
But it must be much more tothat.
And so then, when he returnedback from Russia, that's how we
started first non-profitorganization and it called
(02:50):
iconophile what we were teachingAmericans iconography.
And that's he.
We brought first our 13pigments from Russia and then
that's how it started.
It's basically was in garage.
He was playing with thispigments, with understanding
(03:12):
that they somehow behavedifferent than synthetic modern
pigments, and that's how itstarted.
Jeff (03:21):
Wow, and this started back
when.
What year did you start this?
George (03:25):
So this would actually
well.
I actually, after a kind of along career in marketing
advertising, I started off as anartist but like many artists of
my generation who wanted topaint realistically, not
abstract art.
Abstract art, of course, wasstill in the 70s, was still very
(03:47):
and still, of course, is very,very popular item for collectors
.
But what I didn't want to paintabstract, I wanted figurative
work, and the only jobs thatthere was and you couldn't sell
the art or was very difficultwould be an illustrator, and
that's where, that's where thatpath, and, of course, eventually
(04:08):
it was an advertising things,this nature, but but in Silicon
Valley, and of course at that atthe end of the 1990s.
I wanted to get out of all thatand I decided to go back into
art.
Interesting enough, I took upstudying, as Tony mentioned,
religious art and but from amore of a technical side of it,
(04:32):
and I was interested in thetechnical aspect of mostly
temporal work.
And that's where I went toRussia, and because I the paper
that I read originally waswritten by a Russian professor
on the topic and I had to go andsee it for myself.
So so we met there and and soshe came back with me and and we
(05:03):
, the, the company, started asnatural pigments, because what,
what Tatiana mentioned, is thatthe pigments that were trained
or I was being trained with inRussia are actually natural
minerals, and that was, ofcourse, what they used to use
and so, as pigments, themajority were inorganic or
(05:23):
natural minerals, and so when Istarted working with this, I
understood that there was aproperty to them, was very
different from other pigmentsmodern synthetic pigments and so
the paint turned outdifferently and this was a kind
of a aha moment, and this was inabout 2003.
(05:46):
And that's when we foundedNatural Pigments.
Tatiana (05:50):
And if you notice, on
Natural Pigments, when we first
originally we started thecompany we wanted to give
artists something completelydifferent, what they are custom
already in 20th century.
But the moment we put NaturalPigments of course, we started
have phone calls like, can I usefor my makeup?
And so we probably mademistakes.
(06:13):
So under Natural Pigments youcan see historical, because a
lot of the pigments actually arenot natural.
And then in history forthousands of years, it was done
manmade.
George (06:30):
Yeah, they were manmade
or synthetic, so lead white is a
good example of that.
Jeff (06:35):
Yes, Well, you know, I'm
looking at your, your website
right now and can you give ouraudience the web?
George (06:43):
address Sure, it's
naturalpigmentscom.
Jeff (06:49):
So that's natural
N-A-T-U-R-A-L-P-I-G-M-A-N-T-S
dot com.
Right, correct.
Tatiana (06:57):
And if you're in Canada
it's C-A and if it's in Europe
it'seu.
Jeff (07:03):
I understand completely.
So, as I'm looking at this,this is a phenomenal website.
You guys are I've not seenanything quite like it out there
with the range of products thatyou, that you offer.
Tell us a little bit just aboutall the different product
(07:28):
categories that you offer.
First, Sure.
George (07:31):
So the we have a broad
selection of dry powder pigments
as well as pigments that arepredis dispersed in water,
making it easy for water,water-based media, artists that
want to explore that, and sothat's one huge category.
There's hundreds of differentpigments.
The bulk of them are natural,minerals or earth pigments that
(07:56):
come from all different parts ofthe world.
We source all that, too, and wewe go to the sources.
We look at what's beingproduced there.
The second area, of course, isour paint.
So we have oil paints, watercolor, and we have actually a
brand new medium that has neverbeen done before, which is a
(08:18):
water-based wax paint.
Tatiana (08:20):
We are only comparing
the world.
To make this yeah, and it'scolor.
George (08:25):
It kind of looks like
acrylic maybe, or gouache, but
it's actually wax and when itdries it's wax and continue
sculpting it, melting it,working with like you would in
caustic.
We don't call it in causticbecause it doesn't.
It can be worked like incaustic, but it doesn't need to
be.
It can be worked simply as awater-based medium.
Tatiana (08:48):
It's probably one of
the safest mediums because even
when we talk about acrylics, itstill has all kind of chemicals
where with, with color.
George (09:00):
Yeah acrylic paints,
although being relatively safe,
still contain things liketertiary ammonia and products
like that.
The color doesn't have anythinglike that and, in fact, all
what few ingredients, becausemost of the ingredients is
beeswax that's the major part ofit or the pigment, but the
other ingredients can be foundin things like cosmetics.
Tatiana (09:23):
It's easy to paint.
It's literally acts as agouache, but once water
evaporates, it's a belief or not, it's waterproof, so imagine
it's wax and very unusual.
George (09:38):
So that's a new medium
we developed.
And then, of course, we haveother materials paint making
kits.
We encourage artists to makepaint.
We understand a lot of themwon't, and that's fine, but some
want to explore that and that'swhat we're all about.
We're all about artistsexploring their materials in a
(10:00):
way that they're typically don'tknow, frankly, don't know much
about.
Artists aren't taught.
You go to school, you go touniversity, you go to even even
the most prestigious artcolleges in the world and they
really don't teach aboutmaterials.
It's not really part of thecurriculum and what we're trying
(10:21):
to do is teach artists aboutmaterials because we believe
it's a major handicap notknowing how the materials behave
, what they do, and we get someof the most interesting
questions from artists whoactually the questions are so
basic we naturally assume well,why isn't this being taught as
(10:46):
painting 101?
Tatiana (10:48):
By the way, the company
same like Iconofile.
It started educational program.
If you will read on our blogand on our website, george wrote
hundreds of articles about notonly art history but more about
(11:09):
the materials and, by the way,like 2006, national Gallery
first time ordered first lecturefrom George where it was about
pigments and we didn't realizehow much interest it was because
we thought it will be therestores.
I mean, who else will?
George (11:31):
come Right, what the
group yeah, just yes.
Tatiana (11:34):
It was.
Hundreds of people came to thatlecture, so then we understood
that, well, that is missing partand it's like snowball.
So many.
Lecture later, and in 2013, wehad our first class.
(11:54):
It's called Painting BestPractices and where we teach
artists everything aboutmaterials.
It's nothing about our paint,actually, or our materials.
It's about everything whatartists could be used in their
studios.
Jeff (12:11):
Wow.
So as I look at your website,it really is.
In addition to selling product,it's their educational pages,
aren't they?
George (12:25):
There's thousands of
pages Like, for instance if you
look at any of the pigment pages, you'll see a very complete
description of the history ofthat pigment in art, how that
pigment was used in art, thesource of the pigment, because
we reveal where these pigmentscome from, technical data about
(12:45):
the pigment, like particle sizeand how much oil a particular
pigment will absorb by weight,and all of these technical
information so that an artistcan educate themselves more
about what they're actuallyusing and how to utilize these
(13:06):
things.
And there's so many differenttypes of materials, like the
section in mediums as an example.
There's all these differentwhat we call extender pigments,
like shock and marble dust andsilica and talc, and all of
these things are used in thepaint industry even today,
especially today, more so thanany time in history, to
(13:30):
influence the behavior of thepaint.
That's a really important aspectfor us.
Tatiana (13:36):
Traveling with our
class when this student, an
artist, probably the mostignorant group, was about the
materials.
And it's not their fault,because it's the fault of the
companies.
Through 20th century, whathappened?
Because every time companycreate new color, and as an
(14:01):
artist, of course, they jump tothe color itself without
understanding what is in two oreven worse, in medium.
So, like in the last 70 years,just a couple or maybe just
handful of mediums were using,and it doesn't matter what
(14:24):
artists, because artists are alldifferent, they mean different
ways, they approach the paintingdifferent, but they're using
same mediums without evenunderstanding why they're using
this or that mediums becausethey were taught by their
teachers or were taught byanother one, and it's kind of.
(14:45):
That's why George decided tobreak that pattern and so that's
why we bring so many mediums,but they every each of them for
different purposes and same withcolors.
We make our colors differentthan everybody else and
sometimes it's shocking becauseartists are accustomed to paint
(15:08):
with like two spaced paint.
Doesn't matter from whatcompany they buy, because the
colors are the same, thebehavior is the same and rubles
of colors are completelydifferent.
George (15:21):
They're different
because, again, we don't use a
modern additive which changesthe behavior of the paint
instantly.
So you can even have a pigmentthat is made like.
What we do is we have pigmentsthat we grind them to the point
where they actually mimic andactually are similar to pigments
(15:45):
made or used in past centuriesand then.
But if you put a modernadditive in there, then the
behavior of that particularcolor goes away, because that
additive controls the flow ofthe paint and how it behaves
under the brush or under theknife.
And for us, that was actuallythe most, one of the most
(16:08):
important things that I foundwhen working with these natural
pigments.
They had unusual particle sizeand shape and, as a result, the
paint started to behave verydifferently, and we have videos
on our website showing that.
We showed a comparison betweena lead white that was made
according to an old process andlead white that's made according
(16:31):
to the new process, which wasactually just invented in the
20th century, and the paintbehaves differently.
It's the same pigment in thesame oil, but because the
pigment was made differently, ithas a different particle size
and shape and that changed thebehavior of the paint.
And it's remarkable because alot of artists come to us and
they go.
You know how did Rembrandt makethat brush stroke?
(16:54):
Was it the medium he used?
And we tell him, no, it wasn'tthe medium, it was the way his
paint was made.
And it's because they moreoften made their own paint.
So they understood that Artiststoday buy paint tubes and they
have no idea that there could besomething different than what
(17:14):
they see come out of the tube.
And it can be, and that's thedistinction that we try to put
in there.
There's lots of great artcompanies making great paint,
and that's we're not saying thatwhat we do is better.
What we say we do is verydifferent.
Jeff (17:31):
Very different I'm looking
at just to give our audience a
little bit of a view.
I just picked one pigment colorhere and I went up and I
clicked on green pigments and,as I look at this, you'd think
there'd only be two or threegreens, right?
My goodness, my goodness, whathave you got Like 15 different
(17:53):
green pigments.
George (17:55):
Right, yeah, and that's
you know.
Actually there are many more,but because we don't have a
wider breadth of modern pigments, we have some modern pigments
in there, pigments that weconsider, you know, invented or
developed after the late 19thcentury.
But you can see, we havevarious, like you'll see, at
(18:21):
least five different types ofgreen earths there, and they
come from different locations.
They look differently, theybehave differently and the
subtlety of the color is verydifferent.
Tatiana (18:34):
On YouTube.
We started a new program it'scalled Color Notes, where we
exactly show in artists, becauseit could be confusing when you
come to our website and so theylike from jar, it's looked like
almost the same, but when youlook how they behave different,
(18:54):
how they the tints are different, yes, so the color strength is
different, the opacity isdifferent, so it's a lot of
subtle differences.
George (19:05):
And if an artist is
looking for bright, garish
colors, well we're not the web,you know, we're not the paint
company for that.
But if they're looking for allof these subtle tints and colors
and behavior, then it's.
It's kind of like thedifference between your, you
(19:26):
know, in your grocery store, youknow the generic boxed products
, and then you go to the work AIwhere you have things that are,
you know, prepared with alittle bit differences and so
forth, from the large processedtypes of foods.
Tatiana (19:43):
So we're that's how we
kind of liken ourselves To not
to brag but originally, jeff,when we started company, of
course we understood that we arenot for everybody and so we
kind of targeted onlyprofessional artists.
We understood the longevity ofthe paint for them important,
but after we actually willcelebrate 20 years this year on
(20:04):
September.
So yeah, 20 years later werealized that now of course we
are known artists, even whenthey think that they are not
professional.
So they still come to us andthey understand the importance
of the longevity, even if whatwe are every time saying that,
(20:26):
even if you don't sell, but ifyou want your children have your
art, you need to think aboutwith what you're painting, and
especially if you'reprofessional.
That's why we we have very highlevel artists using our paint
and we do understand theimportance.
(20:48):
And what's the word I'm lookingso we can't screw that.
That's basically it Every batch.
Still we it's like wine, youknow, we ageing, we grinding, we
regrinding, we ageing again,and so until it's ready we will
(21:09):
not release the paint.
And that's why we are not inmany stores in in the country
and actually an outside we we dohave stores all over the world,
but still it's every storeunderstand them to have our
paint.
It's very special and wedefinitely.
If it's something doesn'tdoesn't work, we will not
(21:32):
release the color.
Jeff (21:34):
So you kind of mentioned
you were in some stores and not
that many.
So if our audience had interestin purchasing your product, can
they go to your website andpurchase it.
George (21:47):
Yeah, absolutely
Absolutely.
In fact, that was the.
Again.
That's a little bit differentmodel for creating an art supply
business, because most of themanufacturers have or sell
through their store, so few ofthem sell directly online or
it's there.
Our major sales go through ouronline stores and part of that
(22:13):
was decided early because weunderstood that we had to do a
lot of educational work, whichisn't the best business model
for you know, we love it.
Tatiana (22:23):
We love it.
George (22:24):
We absolutely.
You know, as you can see on thewebsite, the blog has 200
articles.
We're doing, yeah, We've got.
We now have about 60 videos onYouTube.
Tatiana (22:37):
We created, finally,
our painting best practicescom
website where people can go, andbefore we would go all over the
world with our three days class, we not only retired but of
course Corona happened, andthat's why, we finally, finally.
We promised so many years to dothis online, never had the time
(23:00):
.
During Corona we finally putthat our painting best practices
that come there and so peoplecan have a classes and can have
the same education what we weredoing one on one.
But we do have we still havestores, although Corona wipe up
a couple of the stores, ofcourse.
(23:22):
We do have stores in thecountry and some of them very
successful and we love them andwe support the stores If it's,
if it's, if somebody call us andthen they want to know what's
around.
So our office always will givethe information where it's
easier to buy if they don't wantto do online.
Jeff (23:42):
So so, speaking of
contacting you, can our audience
reach out and say they've got aquestion about a pigment or a
paint?
Do you encourage the audienceto call and chat with you
directly?
Tatiana (23:56):
Absolutely.
That's what we are known for.
George (23:59):
That's.
That's in fact.
It's so funny because we getcalls about other company's
products, so because somecompanies will not answer, but
we will but we definitely answereverybody and either they can
either go through the contact onthe website, where they can do
it through email, or they couldcall the 800 number and we'd be
(24:24):
happy we're always happy to talkto people.
Tatiana (24:27):
Or we do have program
where we do an online monthly
it's artist materials advisorand where people can ask any
questions.
Usually it's kind of like topic, but we answer any questions
there.
George (24:42):
So we do a live YouTube
just about every month.
Jeff (24:48):
You know we talked about
the professional, but I can see
that there are a lot of artistsout there that aren't
professional and aren't sellingtheir art, that they just want
to learn more and, as I look atyour website, this is a place
where they can go and kind oflearn the basics about the
(25:11):
pigment and how it turns intopaint and how to use it Right.
George (25:15):
Oh yeah, yeah, there's
all of these different tutorials
on there, like you mentioned,how to make paint, how to
varnish, how to prepare canvasor wood panels for different
painting techniques.
So there's a lot of basicinformation, there's a lot of
very detailed information,historical information about
(25:39):
colors and a lot of informationabout pigments, and all of that
is to really help the artistbetter understand what they're
using.
Tatiana (25:50):
We you know where it
started.
It started when we we went tomuseums and we, of course,
george and I, were going on backdoor of museums and so and we
realized that we still great seelike 15, 16, 70th century art,
18th century already starting,like you know, 19th century,
(26:14):
20th century, some of the paint.
You can't even see thepaintings because they're
failing apart.
Nobody's asking the questionwhy what happened?
It's due to the materials.
I mean techniques one thing, ofcourse too, but materials, and
that's why.
George (26:33):
Well, there's a, in fact
I do a lecture called changes
in binding medium and I tracethe history, how, in painting,
in Western painting particularly, particularly in Europe, how
the, the goal of paintingchanged through the centuries
and as a result of it on you ismentioning is that, as a result
(26:56):
of that, paintings have more andmore problems and more recent
paintings, and we would thinkthat it would be the opposite
with technology, with bettermaterials and things would be
better.
But what really happened ispaintings don't have the same
longevity as they used to do in,let's say, in the 15th century,
(27:19):
which is amazing, but it'sbecause because artists have
become further and furtherremoved from what the materials
are.
They used to make the materials, so they understood what it was
.
Jeff (27:31):
Wow.
George (27:32):
As modern manufacturing
took over the sale and the
development and manufacturing ofpaint, especially since the
19th century, then artists stopmaking it and they, they really
don't understand the materialsanymore.
And we liken it to you know, achef, you go to a culinary
(27:52):
school.
They don't.
You know, they don't give youpre prepared stocks and sauces
that they just pulled out of themarket.
They, they give you the rawmaterials, the herbs.
You know all the starches andall the different ingredients
that go into it.
And you're supposed to makethat?
Artists don't have thatadvantage anymore and it's it's.
(28:13):
We think of it as a handicap.
Jeff (28:18):
You know we're coming to
the end of this particular
podcast and we have so much moreto talk about.
You have pigments, paints,mediums, ground supports,
brushes, tools, drawing, gildingbundles.
I mean there is just so much totalk about.
(28:39):
But for those of you listeningout there, you need to go to
naturalpigmentscom and see thissite for yourself.
You're really not going tobelieve what you see when you go
there.
Make sure you have plenty oftime, because there's a lot to
look at, right?
George (28:59):
Yes, absolutely.
Jeff (29:00):
Yeah, so can I ask you
guys to come back and we can get
into product a little bit morespecifically in the future?
Would that be okay?
George (29:11):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Jeff (29:13):
Wow, this has been such an
eye opening interview for me.
I had no idea the depth thatthat that you all go into.
So again, George Tantiana,golly, what a, what a wonderful
interview, and thank you so very, very much for taking the time
(29:34):
today.
George (29:35):
Well, thank you for
having us.
Jeff (29:38):
Well, we're going to see
you again real soon, so we love
that Good.
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(29:59):
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