May 27, 2024 • 26 mins
Prepare to step into the future of real estate with Amanda Orson, the visionary behind Galleon, as we discuss the seismic shifts taking place in property transactions. Through a lively chat with your hosts, Maia Bittner and Sam Maule , we'll uncover how Galleon is charting a course for a world where traditional agents are no longer the gatekeepers of our dream homes. From the legacy of Zillow's Make Me Move to the thrilling possibilities of a market driven by technology, we promise an insider's look into an industry on the brink of transformation.
As we sail through the realms of iBuying, consolidation of industry giants, and the infusion of crypto into the home-buying process, you'll be at the helm with us, navigating through the intricacies of modern real estate. Amanda opens the treasure chest of her insights, revealing the challenges and potential of underwriting loans for the crypto-rich, and sparking curiosity about how blockchain technology could revolutionize ownership verification. Join us for a voyage that not only explores the current landscape but also sets the compass for future innovation in the world of real estate and personal wealth.
Hosts: Sam Maule & Maia Bittner
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sam Maule (00:03):
This is Ascential Audio.
Maia Bittner (00:11):
Hey guys, welcome back.
Welcome back to ArtificiallyIntelligent brought to you by
Money 2020.
I am one of your hosts, MaiaBittner.
Sam Maule (00:21):
Hey, and I'm Sam Maule, the other co-host.
Good to see you, maya, it looksbeautiful.
God, it looks beautiful.
Maia Bittner (00:27):
Beautiful spring day here in rural Washington
state.
Sam Maule (00:31):
How'd you like the eclipse?
Maia Bittner (00:33):
Well, yesterday was cloudy.
Sam Maule (00:37):
Well, in Florida it was awesome and the eclipse
event for us was fantasticbecause it was basically my wife
, chase, after my kids goingdon't look at the sun, don't
look at the sun.
Maia Bittner (00:47):
It was cool.
I'm so jealous.
I'm already looking at now.
You know plans to go to Spainor Japan in 2030.
I'm jealous that I missed it.
Sam Maule (00:57):
Yeah, well, the next one in the US, I believe, is in
2044.
Maia Bittner (01:01):
And none of us are going to make it that long.
Sam Maule (01:03):
I am going to make it that long.
I'm good.
I am going to make it that long.
I'm going to freeze myself, I'mgoing to do cryogenics or
something so I can be around,because Florida is going to get
the whole blackout and I'm veryexcited about that.
Maia Bittner (01:12):
Oh well, commit yourself now.
I mean, they say that peoplelive longer if they have
something to live for.
Sam Maule (01:18):
Well, I'd like to hope it's more than that, but
you know goals, goals, maya that.
But you know goals, goals, maya, goals.
Um, speaking of goals, one ofmy goals is to found my own
company and my.
I don't know if that's a goalI'm ever going to get.
I'm going to be honest.
However, I've got a ridiculousnumber of friends who have
achieved that goal, and one ofthem is Amanda Orson.
That was an incredible segue,everybody, and I want credit for
(01:40):
that.
I want, like a Weebly award orwhatever you get for segues.
I thought it was fantastic.
Amanda, how are you doing?
Amanda Orson (01:47):
I'm doing great.
Thank you so much for having mehere.
Sam Maule (01:50):
It's great to see you again and to talk to you again
and for our listeners, I want todive literally right into this
because I find this topicfascinating.
Can you tell us the name of thecompany you founded and what
you're focused on?
Can you tell us the name of thecompany you?
Amanda Orson (02:04):
founded and what you're focused on.
So we recently founded Galleon.
Galleon is an unlisted realestate marketplace.
We are focused on off-marketlistings for the moment, but the
key actually is just to accruea bunch of disaggregated
inventory that we all kind ofknow exists so that we can
capture the attention of peoplebefore they sign on the dotted
line with a real estate agent.
We're developing in backgroundsomething akin to a turbo tax
(02:28):
for real estate, basically a wayfor you to perform an agentless
transaction turbo tax for realestate.
Sam Maule (02:34):
That's a actual line I think most people can get.
I I joke around with mayaconstantly about this, but, um,
I love history, it's a hobby.
I can't help myself.
So, maya, I googled when didthe multiple listing service
come from?
How far back does it date?
You want to take a guess,amanda?
You're not allowed to answerthis, maya.
What do you think?
Maia Bittner (02:56):
okay, I want to guess.
I want to guess either 1800s orlike 1986.
I'm feeling the number eight.
Sam Maule (03:06):
Damn it.
Whatever education you got isincredible.
Yeah, Late 1800s is what theysay Real estate brokers.
This is actually from theNational Association of Realtors
.
It said in the late 1800s, realestate brokers regularly
gathered at the office of theirlocal association to share
information about propertiesthey were trying to sell and
agree to compensate otherbrokers who helped sell those
properties.
(03:26):
Thus the MLS was born.
I cannot believe you got thatright.
Maia Bittner (03:32):
It's kind of a cabal right.
I mean, it even sounds like itfrom your description.
Sam Maule (03:36):
A cabal, Amanda?
Is it a cabal Be honest?
Amanda Orson (03:41):
So I think that the way we have transacted real
estate is unique because it'sone of the few, it is the only
example I can think of therebeing one pretty uniform way in
which a major, in which anythingequitable, actually is
transacted.
Like, if you decide that todayyou want to go sell your car,
(04:03):
you can take it to a dealership,you can list it on Craigslist,
you can list it on FacebookMarketplace, you can private
sell it, you can sell it toCarvana.
But really, if you want totransact real estate, I think
prior to the iBuyer open doormarketplace, it was pretty much
only through a real estate agentand the MLS.
That was it.
(04:23):
So I don't know that it's acabal.
I do think that it has beencentrally gatekept for a very
long time.
Sam Maule (04:33):
Well, I like that concept of centrally gatekept
the gatekeepers behind it.
It has gotten interesting and Ithink Maya and I we've talked
about this on a differentpodcast.
We talked about the real estatespace with the introduction of
Zillow and Redfin and Take yourPick right To where we're all.
When you can't sleep at night,you basically go on Zillow and
(04:54):
look at homes you can't affordand dream a little bit, but that
just feels like it did givesomething of a drop kick from a
technology standpoint into thismarket from a technology
standpoint into this market.
Amanda Orson (05:06):
I think Zillow, trulia, both of those were
really important earlyaggregators back in the early
2000s by basically aggregating abunch of stuff that had been
disaggregated against the MLSs Alot of.
Actually, it's important tonote there's not one.
I think that's a popularmisconception.
There are 600 something MLSs inthe United States and there had
(05:27):
previously been 800.
So since this is a fintechpodcast, I can actually talk
about this.
Most people wouldn't get theanalogy but it's actually very
close to community banking.
You know how there used to be alot of local community banks,
right Like 5,000 FDIC insuredcommunity banks or something
around the country and they'reconsolidating and sort of coming
in.
The MLSs have experiencedsomething similar and I think
that it will continue to sort ofhave this consolidation in the
(05:50):
near future and I think for thefirst time, dependent upon how
this newest antitrust DOJinspection thing goes that's
happening at the moment, if theNAR doesn't continue to sort of
be that central gatekeeper tothe MLS systems, I think that
you might see that for the firsttime a national database
aggregator on the outside.
Sam Maule (06:12):
Yeah, I actually learned that researching for the
show.
I didn't know that either, butI mean there's.
The largest MLS in the US isthe California Regional Multiple
Listing Service and it has over110,000 real estate
professionals on it.
I didn't realize it was brokendown that way.
I also didn't realize there areMLSs in other countries, which
shows you my ignorance.
Amanda Orson (06:32):
Yeah, there are MLSs in other countries, but I
believe that the United Stateshas more MLSs than all of the
other countries combined, and Ithink by a multiple.
Maia Bittner (06:41):
So, Sam, I don't think you know this I actually
once worked for a startup it wascalled National BLS and it was
called BLS because they calledthemselves the Buyer Listing
Service, and it's kind ofgetting at a piece of what
Amanda is building.
And so they really focused onthe home buyer.
(07:02):
They said the desire to buy ahome was a lot stronger than the
desire to sell a home, which Ithink is what Amanda's saying,
Like she's saying, hey, there'sa lot of people that would sell
their home, but it's too much ofa pain in the ass and so we
have to make that process easierto get more listings.
And what the buyer listingservice did is it let you
advertise yourself as a buyer.
You could say, hey, I'm lookingfor a house with three to four
(07:26):
bedrooms, at least two bathrooms, in one of these neighborhoods,
and then you could sort ofmarket your qualifications,
which is mostly around financing, right.
So you could say, like I'mpre-approved for up to $750,000,
or I have a down payment ofthis amount saved up, I have
this credit score, things likethat.
(07:46):
And so from the seller'sperspective, they could just go
on a website and sort of perusethe buyers and say I want to
offer my house to this person.
I don't want to offer my houseto a buyer who's going to like
maybe back out or not be able toget a loan.
I want to make this as easy aspossible, and it appealed to
sellers who also they might want, you know, they want their home
(08:09):
to go to a young family, orthere's an emotional component
to selling your house too thatthey were able to get at.
So that's I kind of have.
It's funny to hear Amanda talkabout her startup, because I
have some experience that echoessome pieces of that from, oh
like circa 2007.
Sam Maule (08:27):
And what happened?
Gotta ask.
Maia Bittner (08:29):
Well, 2007 was not a great time for real
estate-based startups.
Sam Maule (08:33):
first of all, Every listener just went.
That was the dumbest question Ithink I've ever heard in my
life.
Maia Bittner (08:39):
So not a great time for real estate, frankly,
not a great time for startups ingeneral.
You know it was a bad time forthe economy in the United States
worldwide financial crisis.
Startups fared better than alot of industries, but weren't
immune.
So National BLS is no longer, Ithink.
(09:02):
The CEO and founder went on tostart a pretty big co-working
space in San Francisco, though,so he's doing OK.
I was their social media intern, which I don't even think is a
job anymore.
Sam Maule (09:17):
So, Amanda, when did you get this idea?
Was it during COVID or does itpredate COVID?
Amanda Orson (09:23):
No, actually this idea was from July, the 9th of
last year, but it goes back alot farther than that Do you?
Have a specific date.
Absolutely.
What happened on that day?
Yeah, tell us.
I know I'm dying.
Sam Maule (09:36):
What happened on July 9th?
Amanda Orson (09:38):
I was having coffee on a Sunday morning and,
to take it one step further, asa point of introduction to the
crowd, I used to be the countrymanager for the United States
for a company called Curve,which is a fintech based out of
the UK.
That's how I know Sam.
So we had enjoyed a very nicerosy, frothy valuation during
(10:00):
2021 during the bull market, andwe're not going to continue to
enjoy that, like a lot of otherstartups, and we ended up laying
off a bunch of the US staff,which, it happens.
It's a startup where theexpansion market it was the
right decision for the businessand I stepped down as CEO.
So we actually went through avery how do I say?
(10:21):
Methodical iteration of four tosix ideas, three of which we
went deeply down to figure outwhat we might do together in the
future, and this was an ideathat I actually came up with in
a vacuum over coffee on a Sundaymorning.
The actual genesis of the ideais that long before this, back
(10:44):
in 2015, I'd used a feature thatI figured out pretty quickly
was defunct on Zillow, calledMake Me Move, when we had sold a
previous company and I didn'tneed to move, but I wanted to
just kind of feel the market out.
What I was receiving at thetime was a whole bunch of
inquiries to a property that Iowned in Lancaster, pennsylvania
(11:04):
Not the only one, but that onehappened to get a lot of them
and I was like you know what I'msick and tired of these stupid
mailers.
I'm sick and tired of gettingthese cold texts.
Let me just put this up.
And when I found out that thatfeature had been deprecated, it
started sort of an inquiry and Ifell down deeply down the
rabbit hole into why that hadactually been deprecated.
And what I figured out prettyquickly is that the take rate
(11:26):
for that particular product wasvery low, in part because it was
in competition with all of itsnormal MLS aggregation listings,
but also it ended up just beingsort of a lead gen for real
estate agents, which was a pooruser experience.
So I was like, well, what if weextracted that and made that
the first sort of genesis for acompany built around that
concept?
(11:46):
So the idea for Galleonbasically we went through a very
thorough customer researchiterative cycle, the same way
that we had done to invalidate awhole bunch of other B2B
fintech mostly ideas that we hadgone through the prior four to
six weeks or whatever it was,and when we actually dug into
this one, we kept finding signaland I was like, ok, this is
(12:10):
definitely what we need to beworking on.
Sam Maule (12:11):
Maya, you got excited when she talked about that
feature.
It wasn't one I was aware of,so you were familiar with that.
Maia Bittner (12:18):
So yeah, that's.
I mean I know Zillow's Make MeMove.
It sounds really similar and soI'm so glad you brought it up
and that you had dug into it.
And I do think you know, Ithink often people can take a
lazy approach and say like, oh,zillow tried this, or like some
big incumbent tried it and theydeprecated it.
There must not be any therethere.
But I think when you are as bigof a company as Zillow is,
(12:42):
things don't get the.
They don't get the attentionthat they deserve and maybe not
the framing and positioning thata product needs to be
successful.
I'm thinking I mean I'mthinking about all the different
angles of this Like there's nofees on Galleon for the right.
So yeah, I mean Amanda'snodding now.
So no fees is huge and I thinkthat, um, you can afford a
(13:07):
bigger house if the seller's notpaying that 6% commission,
potentially right, you canafford a more expensive house
because the real estate agentsaren't taking a cut of it and
that's going to be reallycompelling to a lot of people.
I don't think that Zillow wasever really able to market their
make my move feature in thatsame way.
Amanda Orson (13:26):
No, actually, if you read early interviews from
its founder CEO, rich Martin Ibelieve I have that name right.
If I don't, please forgive me,but if you read the early
interviews, a lot of the genesisfor what Zillow began as came
from his experience at Expedia.
And the first nugget of it waswell, what if we went sort of
(13:47):
direct, and wouldn't that be abetter way to transact real
estate?
And what he learned prettyquickly is that real estate is
much more nuanced and themiddlemen, as it were, weren't
actually somebody that you couldcut out or should cut out
because it's such a complicatedtransaction.
So they fell very quickly intohow do I say it?
(14:09):
You know, water seeks the pathof least resistance.
Businesses seek the path of theeasiest large money, and the
easiest large money is sellingads to real estate agents.
So in, I think, the last yearthere's like 1.5 million
realtors.
According to the NAR statisticsthere's 106,000 brokerages.
(14:29):
That's a very healthy TAM tosell leads and advertising into.
And I think that they recognizethat pretty early on.
So it doesn't surprise me thatMake Me Move never really had an
opportunity to be a fullyfleshed out like in a big
corporation.
I can't imagine.
I've never worked in one quiteof the size that Zillow is, but
I've worked in one that's fouror 500 people Really hard.
(14:52):
It's really hard for littlefeatures to sort of get their
time in the sun and to get someprioritization.
It makes a lot of sense to methat it was deprecated, but the
timing of it was reallyinteresting.
They deprecated it in 2018, Ibelieve, right around the time
they were launching their iBuyarrival, that open door iBuy
arrival, that Open Door iBuyarrival, which I think they also
(15:15):
have shuttered.
I know they also have shuttered.
They're now actually partneredwith Open Door.
When that happened, they also,I believe around the same
timeframe, joined the NAR.
And when they joined the NAR,they moved all of their other
listings, that's, all thepre-listings, the foreclosures,
all that stuff all behind onedegree of friction, which is the
crux of what happened to Rex,which was a low-cost brokerage
(15:38):
in California who had a CEOnamed Jack Ryan, who's been very
outspoken In fact, he just hadan op-ed in the Wall Street
Journal on Sunday about theNational Association of Realtors
and sort of this consolidation,this centralization, holding
back homeowners from being ableto transact or to transact more
freely, basically.
But it did absolutely take outRex, and it was the crux of a
(16:01):
lawsuit, rex v Zillow, that theyactually lost on, I believe.
Appeal back in September,october.
Maia Bittner (16:06):
Well, it does beg the question.
So tell us about your businessmodel.
Is it going to be harder thanZillow's?
And I'm also curious if you aremaking an enemy out of all of
these agents and if they'regoing to be fighting against you
at every corner and as yourcompany grows.
Amanda Orson (16:25):
So I want to be very clear, and I've said this
multiple times on social I don'tthink there is a future where
there are not real estate agents.
I think that they areabsolutely necessary,
particularly in the case ofpeople that have out of location
moves, people who have aspecial circumstance.
Everyone will have to have, Ithink, a reason like a thing
(16:47):
that they're marketing to begood at in the future, but I
just don't think that it's theonly way and that's the key.
I think that for people thatare experienced homebuyers and
sellers meaning people that havebought a couple of homes,
they're in the military, likeSam, for example you PCS a
couple of times, you've figuredthis out, like you pretty much
know what you're doing that'sthe kind of consumer that
(17:08):
doesn't necessarily need toengage a real estate
professional to and certainlynot at the post-tax cost of you
know, 3%, right Depending on thesite.
Maia Bittner (17:18):
Well, and this is following a ton of other
industries have made thistransition right.
Travel agents is a classic one.
You used to have to book alltravel with travel agents.
Now it's like, look, if youknow what you want cheaper,
better, faster, to go direct buyyour flights from the airline
or Google Flights.
But travel agents still existin kind of a more high-end
premium way.
You pay more, but if you havespecial concerns and they bring
(17:40):
like an extra touch and extracustomization to that service, I
love that you flagged thatZillow was founded by Rich
Barton.
Sam Maule (17:49):
You did get that right.
I was doing some Googling andsome proofing on that while at
Microsoft when it came up withthis idea.
So, one man, you learnsomething new every day.
So back to your point, maya,about travel industry being
disrupted.
And the other thing that mademe smile, amanda, is when you're
talking about a feature beingshut down.
Prior to Move, I was at Google.
(18:09):
Everybody you want to talkabout shutting some things down.
There is no one better in thisworld than Google at killing a
product, and it's a great placeto go and get ideas for products
.
By the way, I should say Justsaying everybody, if you're
looking for an idea, go out andlook at some of these things
that were shut down and try tofigure out why.
Maia Bittner (18:31):
Well, amanda, I want to ask.
I mean, you're talking aboutthe company and it really sounds
like a lot of the samephilosophies I hear with crypto.
Right, it's disintermediatingthings, it's helping connect
people more directly, it's moreefficient because middlemen
aren't taking a cut.
I'm curious if you have anyplans to incorporate crypto into
(18:52):
Galleon, or are you stillundecided?
I'd love to learn more aboutthat.
Amanda Orson (18:56):
So I philosophically like one, for,
to begin with, I actually own abunch of crypto.
I'm an early adopter and Ifirmly believe in
decentralization as a concept,but as it applies to Galleon in
the immediate term, what I wouldsay is that we know, just like
in crypto, that centralizationis not the future of anything,
(19:19):
of anything, of any industry, ofany policy.
It's not going to come back tocentralization of doing things,
a central way of transacting,literally with the same method
since 1913, and the same, Ibelieve, commission rate since
(19:43):
1940.
Now that's about to change inJuly, which we've not talked
about, but all of that stuffwould be recognizable.
The way that we transact realestate right now would be
absolutely recognizable to mygreat grandparents, which I
can't say for securities, Ican't say for cars, I can't say
for anything, but it is the sameway that we've been doing
transactions for real estate foralmost 100 years, more than 100
(20:04):
years.
So, with respect to crypto inthe future, I am very keenly
interested in any mortgagelending partners that have other
ways of underwriting, and thereare very few of them.
I will say that actuallyhappened to me as a human being
buying this farm that I'msitting at right now, back in
2021 or 2022.
(20:26):
Getting underwriting done for aperson that has a significant
chunk of their personal networth in crypto is not possible,
and that's something that willbe solved for in the future.
I'm aware of one company that isdoing it, but I'm certainly
interested in talking to otherlending partners that are in
that category or trying totackle that problem.
I think the most practicalapplication, though, will come
(20:48):
down to blockchain.
It is not a solved problem yet,and it is not one that Galleon
it's not core to our mission tosolve, at least not for the time
being, but I do think thatblockchain technology is a
logical place for Tidal to go to, and Tidal is a whole other
ball of wax.
It's a lot of talk aboutfragmentation.
(21:09):
It's every state's municipality.
It's very fragmented.
There are still places in thecountry that have not yet
digitalized their title, so it'sgoing to take a long time, but
I do think that that's the mostobvious place for blockchain to
go I might have funny enoughthrough some other work that I'm
doing, um, learning about titleprocessing and the money flow
(21:34):
that goes behind it.
Sam Maule (21:36):
Yeah, if you really want to laugh, the volume of
checks and I'm talking checks,checks, physical checks that
flow around, that is staggering,absolutely staggering.
And, amanda, you're going toget a special prize I don't know
what, yet Some kind of stickerI'm going to send you.
She just gave us an idea for agreat future show about the
(21:59):
impact of crypto when it doescome to underwriting, when it
comes to taxes, when it comes toanalyzing personal wealth.
It's hilarious.
I hadn't thought of that.
That's a great future show.
Amanda Orson (22:11):
It's a big problem .
It's a big problem.
I would say it's a particularlybig problem because there are
lots of people who are walkingaround like circa 2021 the last
time we had an all time high.
Lots of you know guys that were, say, under 35, that could buy
any home that couldn't actuallybe underwritten for any home
(22:31):
because the vast majority oftheir net worth was tied up in
crypto.
So the only way they were goingto get in is by liquidating the
underlying asset that wasproviding that net worth, and
they weren't going to do that.
So it is a real problem and Ido think that it's a niche.
It's one that I think we're notnear maturity yet, but if we
have Bitcoin ETFs now, I thinkthat we should be entertaining.
How do we more intelligentlyunderwrite, at least for the
(22:53):
blue chip crypto in the future?
Sam Maule (22:56):
You just hit on the sweet spot of this podcast.
That's why I call itartificially intelligent,
because it's what is?
These things we don't know alot about, but it can go really
deep.
You know that are narrow anddeep and fascinating.
And again dealing with the MLSand what's out there.
And on this end it'sfascinating what's next for you?
I mean, obviously you'regrowing the company out.
(23:18):
You're coming up on what a yearnow.
So what's what's next for thecompany?
Where are you headed?
Amanda Orson (23:30):
We're not a year in yet.
Sam Maule (23:30):
It feels sometimes like it's been 10 years, but no,
we're not even a year in yet.
Every starter, yeah, Everyfounder.
How's it been?
Oh my God, this decade has beenoh wait a minute six months.
Amanda Orson (23:43):
The decade, over the last six months.
So we're actually we're I wouldsay, a week or two away away
from making a significantannouncement.
I will say next week we'regoing to ship a site redesign
live.
So that should be live.
And then what's next?
From there?
We have the team that we'regoing to have in place for now
in place.
That's the most exciting thingis that we actually sort of like
put the wheels on the car, putthe car together and now we're
(24:04):
ready to go off to the racetrack.
Uh, I would say, watch thisspace.
Maia Bittner (24:10):
I was just.
I mean, uh, I think by the timethis episode goes live, it
sounds like that'll happen, sothere'll be a fancy new website
for our listeners to go checkout.
Sam Maule (24:22):
Yeah, perfect timing.
So with that, amanda, where'sthe best place?
What's the best place for thelisteners to learn?
See the new website and diveinto a market disruptor.
Where should they go?
Amanda Orson (24:36):
It's galleonio G-A-L-L-E-O-Nio.
I would say that right now, thething that would be most
interesting and is the productwe've already shipped is our two
minutes to list marketplace.
Basically, if you have a houseand you have a price in mind and
one photograph of it, sign uptakes two minutes to list.
(24:57):
There's no commitment and, mostimportantly, there is no days
on market.
So, since this is a financialaudience, days on market is
really important.
It's a feature and not a bug ofthe existing MLS.
You can think of the existingMLS system as a place for
motivated sellers, but anybodywho sold a house or two knows
that days on market compressesyour price.
So we are the place forpersuadable sellers and
(25:29):
motivated buyers who want tofind an off-market deal or maybe
a property in an area thatthey're otherwise closed out of
because there's not enoughinventory.
That's why you can take twominutes, list your house and you
do not have any obligation tokeep it up.
Sam Maule (25:39):
You can take it down at any time.
All we need is a price, a photoand you're good to go.
That's how you sell everybody.
Let me just help you out.
If you can talk to a concept inunder 20 seconds and you just
get it, nod your head.
Maia Bittner (25:46):
You have a winner.
Sam Maule (25:47):
I don't know how many startups I've got to give this
speech to.
It gets exhausting.
Thank God, with Amanda,industry better.
We don't have to do that.
Folks, that's going to do itfor this week's podcast.
Please reach out to me ifyou've got ideas for shows,
Amanda.
By the way, gold star going tosend something your way for the
idea on underwriting and cryptoand other forms of wealth.
Reach out to me on LinkedIneverybody, Great place to do it
(26:09):
or on Twitter.
How about you, Maya?
Maia Bittner (26:12):
Always come hang out with me on Twitter.
I'm at Maya B.
I would love to hear how muchyou would sell your house for if
you didn't have to go throughthe rigmarole.
Sam Maule (26:23):
Thanks for listening, everybody.
We'll see you next week.
This is Ascential Audio.
Maia Bittner (00:11):
Hey guys, welcome back.
Welcome back to ArtificiallyIntelligent brought to you by
Money 2020.
I am one of your hosts, MaiaBittner.
Sam Maule (00:21):
Hey, and I'm Sam Maule, the other co-host.
Good to see you, maya, it looksbeautiful.
God, it looks beautiful.
Maia Bittner (00:27):
Beautiful spring day here in rural Washington
state.
Sam Maule (00:31):
How'd you like the eclipse?
Maia Bittner (00:33):
Well, yesterday was cloudy.
Sam Maule (00:37):
Well, in Florida it was awesome and the eclipse
event for us was fantasticbecause it was basically my wife
, chase, after my kids goingdon't look at the sun, don't
look at the sun.
Maia Bittner (00:47):
It was cool.
I'm so jealous.
I'm already looking at now.
You know plans to go to Spainor Japan in 2030.
I'm jealous that I missed it.
Sam Maule (00:57):
Yeah, well, the next one in the US, I believe, is in
2044.
Maia Bittner (01:01):
And none of us are going to make it that long.
Sam Maule (01:03):
I am going to make it that long.
I'm good.
I am going to make it that long.
I'm going to freeze myself, I'mgoing to do cryogenics or
something so I can be around,because Florida is going to get
the whole blackout and I'm veryexcited about that.
Maia Bittner (01:12):
Oh well, commit yourself now.
I mean, they say that peoplelive longer if they have
something to live for.
Sam Maule (01:18):
Well, I'd like to hope it's more than that, but
you know goals, goals, maya that.
But you know goals, goals, maya, goals.
Um, speaking of goals, one ofmy goals is to found my own
company and my.
I don't know if that's a goalI'm ever going to get.
I'm going to be honest.
However, I've got a ridiculousnumber of friends who have
achieved that goal, and one ofthem is Amanda Orson.
That was an incredible segue,everybody, and I want credit for
(01:40):
that.
I want, like a Weebly award orwhatever you get for segues.
I thought it was fantastic.
Amanda, how are you doing?
Amanda Orson (01:47):
I'm doing great.
Thank you so much for having mehere.
Sam Maule (01:50):
It's great to see you again and to talk to you again
and for our listeners, I want todive literally right into this
because I find this topicfascinating.
Can you tell us the name of thecompany you founded and what
you're focused on?
Can you tell us the name of thecompany you?
Amanda Orson (02:04):
founded and what you're focused on.
So we recently founded Galleon.
Galleon is an unlisted realestate marketplace.
We are focused on off-marketlistings for the moment, but the
key actually is just to accruea bunch of disaggregated
inventory that we all kind ofknow exists so that we can
capture the attention of peoplebefore they sign on the dotted
line with a real estate agent.
We're developing in backgroundsomething akin to a turbo tax
(02:28):
for real estate, basically a wayfor you to perform an agentless
transaction turbo tax for realestate.
Sam Maule (02:34):
That's a actual line I think most people can get.
I I joke around with mayaconstantly about this, but, um,
I love history, it's a hobby.
I can't help myself.
So, maya, I googled when didthe multiple listing service
come from?
How far back does it date?
You want to take a guess,amanda?
You're not allowed to answerthis, maya.
What do you think?
Maia Bittner (02:56):
okay, I want to guess.
I want to guess either 1800s orlike 1986.
I'm feeling the number eight.
Sam Maule (03:06):
Damn it.
Whatever education you got isincredible.
Yeah, Late 1800s is what theysay Real estate brokers.
This is actually from theNational Association of Realtors
.
It said in the late 1800s, realestate brokers regularly
gathered at the office of theirlocal association to share
information about propertiesthey were trying to sell and
agree to compensate otherbrokers who helped sell those
properties.
(03:26):
Thus the MLS was born.
I cannot believe you got thatright.
Maia Bittner (03:32):
It's kind of a cabal right.
I mean, it even sounds like itfrom your description.
Sam Maule (03:36):
A cabal, Amanda?
Is it a cabal Be honest?
Amanda Orson (03:41):
So I think that the way we have transacted real
estate is unique because it'sone of the few, it is the only
example I can think of therebeing one pretty uniform way in
which a major, in which anythingequitable, actually is
transacted.
Like, if you decide that todayyou want to go sell your car,
(04:03):
you can take it to a dealership,you can list it on Craigslist,
you can list it on FacebookMarketplace, you can private
sell it, you can sell it toCarvana.
But really, if you want totransact real estate, I think
prior to the iBuyer open doormarketplace, it was pretty much
only through a real estate agentand the MLS.
That was it.
(04:23):
So I don't know that it's acabal.
I do think that it has beencentrally gatekept for a very
long time.
Sam Maule (04:33):
Well, I like that concept of centrally gatekept
the gatekeepers behind it.
It has gotten interesting and Ithink Maya and I we've talked
about this on a differentpodcast.
We talked about the real estatespace with the introduction of
Zillow and Redfin and Take yourPick right To where we're all.
When you can't sleep at night,you basically go on Zillow and
(04:54):
look at homes you can't affordand dream a little bit, but that
just feels like it did givesomething of a drop kick from a
technology standpoint into thismarket from a technology
standpoint into this market.
Amanda Orson (05:06):
I think Zillow, trulia, both of those were
really important earlyaggregators back in the early
2000s by basically aggregating abunch of stuff that had been
disaggregated against the MLSs Alot of.
Actually, it's important tonote there's not one.
I think that's a popularmisconception.
There are 600 something MLSs inthe United States and there had
(05:27):
previously been 800.
So since this is a fintechpodcast, I can actually talk
about this.
Most people wouldn't get theanalogy but it's actually very
close to community banking.
You know how there used to be alot of local community banks,
right Like 5,000 FDIC insuredcommunity banks or something
around the country and they'reconsolidating and sort of coming
in.
The MLSs have experiencedsomething similar and I think
that it will continue to sort ofhave this consolidation in the
(05:50):
near future and I think for thefirst time, dependent upon how
this newest antitrust DOJinspection thing goes that's
happening at the moment, if theNAR doesn't continue to sort of
be that central gatekeeper tothe MLS systems, I think that
you might see that for the firsttime a national database
aggregator on the outside.
Sam Maule (06:12):
Yeah, I actually learned that researching for the
show.
I didn't know that either, butI mean there's.
The largest MLS in the US isthe California Regional Multiple
Listing Service and it has over110,000 real estate
professionals on it.
I didn't realize it was brokendown that way.
I also didn't realize there areMLSs in other countries, which
shows you my ignorance.
Amanda Orson (06:32):
Yeah, there are MLSs in other countries, but I
believe that the United Stateshas more MLSs than all of the
other countries combined, and Ithink by a multiple.
Maia Bittner (06:41):
So, Sam, I don't think you know this I actually
once worked for a startup it wascalled National BLS and it was
called BLS because they calledthemselves the Buyer Listing
Service, and it's kind ofgetting at a piece of what
Amanda is building.
And so they really focused onthe home buyer.
(07:02):
They said the desire to buy ahome was a lot stronger than the
desire to sell a home, which Ithink is what Amanda's saying,
Like she's saying, hey, there'sa lot of people that would sell
their home, but it's too much ofa pain in the ass and so we
have to make that process easierto get more listings.
And what the buyer listingservice did is it let you
advertise yourself as a buyer.
You could say, hey, I'm lookingfor a house with three to four
(07:26):
bedrooms, at least two bathrooms, in one of these neighborhoods,
and then you could sort ofmarket your qualifications,
which is mostly around financing, right.
So you could say, like I'mpre-approved for up to $750,000,
or I have a down payment ofthis amount saved up, I have
this credit score, things likethat.
(07:46):
And so from the seller'sperspective, they could just go
on a website and sort of perusethe buyers and say I want to
offer my house to this person.
I don't want to offer my houseto a buyer who's going to like
maybe back out or not be able toget a loan.
I want to make this as easy aspossible, and it appealed to
sellers who also they might want, you know, they want their home
(08:09):
to go to a young family, orthere's an emotional component
to selling your house too thatthey were able to get at.
So that's I kind of have.
It's funny to hear Amanda talkabout her startup, because I
have some experience that echoessome pieces of that from, oh
like circa 2007.
Sam Maule (08:27):
And what happened?
Gotta ask.
Maia Bittner (08:29):
Well, 2007 was not a great time for real
estate-based startups.
Sam Maule (08:33):
first of all, Every listener just went.
That was the dumbest question Ithink I've ever heard in my
life.
Maia Bittner (08:39):
So not a great time for real estate, frankly,
not a great time for startups ingeneral.
You know it was a bad time forthe economy in the United States
worldwide financial crisis.
Startups fared better than alot of industries, but weren't
immune.
So National BLS is no longer, Ithink.
(09:02):
The CEO and founder went on tostart a pretty big co-working
space in San Francisco, though,so he's doing OK.
I was their social media intern, which I don't even think is a
job anymore.
Sam Maule (09:17):
So, Amanda, when did you get this idea?
Was it during COVID or does itpredate COVID?
Amanda Orson (09:23):
No, actually this idea was from July, the 9th of
last year, but it goes back alot farther than that Do you?
Have a specific date.
Absolutely.
What happened on that day?
Yeah, tell us.
I know I'm dying.
Sam Maule (09:36):
What happened on July 9th?
Amanda Orson (09:38):
I was having coffee on a Sunday morning and,
to take it one step further, asa point of introduction to the
crowd, I used to be the countrymanager for the United States
for a company called Curve,which is a fintech based out of
the UK.
That's how I know Sam.
So we had enjoyed a very nicerosy, frothy valuation during
(10:00):
2021 during the bull market, andwe're not going to continue to
enjoy that, like a lot of otherstartups, and we ended up laying
off a bunch of the US staff,which, it happens.
It's a startup where theexpansion market it was the
right decision for the businessand I stepped down as CEO.
So we actually went through avery how do I say?
(10:21):
Methodical iteration of four tosix ideas, three of which we
went deeply down to figure outwhat we might do together in the
future, and this was an ideathat I actually came up with in
a vacuum over coffee on a Sundaymorning.
The actual genesis of the ideais that long before this, back
(10:44):
in 2015, I'd used a feature thatI figured out pretty quickly
was defunct on Zillow, calledMake Me Move, when we had sold a
previous company and I didn'tneed to move, but I wanted to
just kind of feel the market out.
What I was receiving at thetime was a whole bunch of
inquiries to a property that Iowned in Lancaster, pennsylvania
(11:04):
Not the only one, but that onehappened to get a lot of them
and I was like you know what I'msick and tired of these stupid
mailers.
I'm sick and tired of gettingthese cold texts.
Let me just put this up.
And when I found out that thatfeature had been deprecated, it
started sort of an inquiry and Ifell down deeply down the
rabbit hole into why that hadactually been deprecated.
And what I figured out prettyquickly is that the take rate
(11:26):
for that particular product wasvery low, in part because it was
in competition with all of itsnormal MLS aggregation listings,
but also it ended up just beingsort of a lead gen for real
estate agents, which was a pooruser experience.
So I was like, well, what if weextracted that and made that
the first sort of genesis for acompany built around that
concept?
(11:46):
So the idea for Galleonbasically we went through a very
thorough customer researchiterative cycle, the same way
that we had done to invalidate awhole bunch of other B2B
fintech mostly ideas that we hadgone through the prior four to
six weeks or whatever it was,and when we actually dug into
this one, we kept finding signaland I was like, ok, this is
(12:10):
definitely what we need to beworking on.
Sam Maule (12:11):
Maya, you got excited when she talked about that
feature.
It wasn't one I was aware of,so you were familiar with that.
Maia Bittner (12:18):
So yeah, that's.
I mean I know Zillow's Make MeMove.
It sounds really similar and soI'm so glad you brought it up
and that you had dug into it.
And I do think you know, Ithink often people can take a
lazy approach and say like, oh,zillow tried this, or like some
big incumbent tried it and theydeprecated it.
There must not be any therethere.
But I think when you are as bigof a company as Zillow is,
(12:42):
things don't get the.
They don't get the attentionthat they deserve and maybe not
the framing and positioning thata product needs to be
successful.
I'm thinking I mean I'mthinking about all the different
angles of this Like there's nofees on Galleon for the right.
So yeah, I mean Amanda'snodding now.
So no fees is huge and I thinkthat, um, you can afford a
(13:07):
bigger house if the seller's notpaying that 6% commission,
potentially right, you canafford a more expensive house
because the real estate agentsaren't taking a cut of it and
that's going to be reallycompelling to a lot of people.
I don't think that Zillow wasever really able to market their
make my move feature in thatsame way.
Amanda Orson (13:26):
No, actually, if you read early interviews from
its founder CEO, rich Martin Ibelieve I have that name right.
If I don't, please forgive me,but if you read the early
interviews, a lot of the genesisfor what Zillow began as came
from his experience at Expedia.
And the first nugget of it waswell, what if we went sort of
(13:47):
direct, and wouldn't that be abetter way to transact real
estate?
And what he learned prettyquickly is that real estate is
much more nuanced and themiddlemen, as it were, weren't
actually somebody that you couldcut out or should cut out
because it's such a complicatedtransaction.
So they fell very quickly intohow do I say it?
(14:09):
You know, water seeks the pathof least resistance.
Businesses seek the path of theeasiest large money, and the
easiest large money is sellingads to real estate agents.
So in, I think, the last yearthere's like 1.5 million
realtors.
According to the NAR statisticsthere's 106,000 brokerages.
(14:29):
That's a very healthy TAM tosell leads and advertising into.
And I think that they recognizethat pretty early on.
So it doesn't surprise me thatMake Me Move never really had an
opportunity to be a fullyfleshed out like in a big
corporation.
I can't imagine.
I've never worked in one quiteof the size that Zillow is, but
I've worked in one that's fouror 500 people Really hard.
(14:52):
It's really hard for littlefeatures to sort of get their
time in the sun and to get someprioritization.
It makes a lot of sense to methat it was deprecated, but the
timing of it was reallyinteresting.
They deprecated it in 2018, Ibelieve, right around the time
they were launching their iBuyarrival, that open door iBuy
arrival, that Open Door iBuyarrival, which I think they also
(15:15):
have shuttered.
I know they also have shuttered.
They're now actually partneredwith Open Door.
When that happened, they also,I believe around the same
timeframe, joined the NAR.
And when they joined the NAR,they moved all of their other
listings, that's, all thepre-listings, the foreclosures,
all that stuff all behind onedegree of friction, which is the
crux of what happened to Rex,which was a low-cost brokerage
(15:38):
in California who had a CEOnamed Jack Ryan, who's been very
outspoken In fact, he just hadan op-ed in the Wall Street
Journal on Sunday about theNational Association of Realtors
and sort of this consolidation,this centralization, holding
back homeowners from being ableto transact or to transact more
freely, basically.
But it did absolutely take outRex, and it was the crux of a
(16:01):
lawsuit, rex v Zillow, that theyactually lost on, I believe.
Appeal back in September,october.
Maia Bittner (16:06):
Well, it does beg the question.
So tell us about your businessmodel.
Is it going to be harder thanZillow's?
And I'm also curious if you aremaking an enemy out of all of
these agents and if they'regoing to be fighting against you
at every corner and as yourcompany grows.
Amanda Orson (16:25):
So I want to be very clear, and I've said this
multiple times on social I don'tthink there is a future where
there are not real estate agents.
I think that they areabsolutely necessary,
particularly in the case ofpeople that have out of location
moves, people who have aspecial circumstance.
Everyone will have to have, Ithink, a reason like a thing
(16:47):
that they're marketing to begood at in the future, but I
just don't think that it's theonly way and that's the key.
I think that for people thatare experienced homebuyers and
sellers meaning people that havebought a couple of homes,
they're in the military, likeSam, for example you PCS a
couple of times, you've figuredthis out, like you pretty much
know what you're doing that'sthe kind of consumer that
(17:08):
doesn't necessarily need toengage a real estate
professional to and certainlynot at the post-tax cost of you
know, 3%, right Depending on thesite.
Maia Bittner (17:18):
Well, and this is following a ton of other
industries have made thistransition right.
Travel agents is a classic one.
You used to have to book alltravel with travel agents.
Now it's like, look, if youknow what you want cheaper,
better, faster, to go direct buyyour flights from the airline
or Google Flights.
But travel agents still existin kind of a more high-end
premium way.
You pay more, but if you havespecial concerns and they bring
(17:40):
like an extra touch and extracustomization to that service, I
love that you flagged thatZillow was founded by Rich
Barton.
Sam Maule (17:49):
You did get that right.
I was doing some Googling andsome proofing on that while at
Microsoft when it came up withthis idea.
So, one man, you learnsomething new every day.
So back to your point, maya,about travel industry being
disrupted.
And the other thing that mademe smile, amanda, is when you're
talking about a feature beingshut down.
Prior to Move, I was at Google.
(18:09):
Everybody you want to talkabout shutting some things down.
There is no one better in thisworld than Google at killing a
product, and it's a great placeto go and get ideas for products
.
By the way, I should say Justsaying everybody, if you're
looking for an idea, go out andlook at some of these things
that were shut down and try tofigure out why.
Maia Bittner (18:31):
Well, amanda, I want to ask.
I mean, you're talking aboutthe company and it really sounds
like a lot of the samephilosophies I hear with crypto.
Right, it's disintermediatingthings, it's helping connect
people more directly, it's moreefficient because middlemen
aren't taking a cut.
I'm curious if you have anyplans to incorporate crypto into
(18:52):
Galleon, or are you stillundecided?
I'd love to learn more aboutthat.
Amanda Orson (18:56):
So I philosophically like one, for,
to begin with, I actually own abunch of crypto.
I'm an early adopter and Ifirmly believe in
decentralization as a concept,but as it applies to Galleon in
the immediate term, what I wouldsay is that we know, just like
in crypto, that centralizationis not the future of anything,
(19:19):
of anything, of any industry, ofany policy.
It's not going to come back tocentralization of doing things,
a central way of transacting,literally with the same method
since 1913, and the same, Ibelieve, commission rate since
(19:43):
1940.
Now that's about to change inJuly, which we've not talked
about, but all of that stuffwould be recognizable.
The way that we transact realestate right now would be
absolutely recognizable to mygreat grandparents, which I
can't say for securities, Ican't say for cars, I can't say
for anything, but it is the sameway that we've been doing
transactions for real estate foralmost 100 years, more than 100
(20:04):
years.
So, with respect to crypto inthe future, I am very keenly
interested in any mortgagelending partners that have other
ways of underwriting, and thereare very few of them.
I will say that actuallyhappened to me as a human being
buying this farm that I'msitting at right now, back in
2021 or 2022.
(20:26):
Getting underwriting done for aperson that has a significant
chunk of their personal networth in crypto is not possible,
and that's something that willbe solved for in the future.
I'm aware of one company that isdoing it, but I'm certainly
interested in talking to otherlending partners that are in
that category or trying totackle that problem.
I think the most practicalapplication, though, will come
(20:48):
down to blockchain.
It is not a solved problem yet,and it is not one that Galleon
it's not core to our mission tosolve, at least not for the time
being, but I do think thatblockchain technology is a
logical place for Tidal to go to, and Tidal is a whole other
ball of wax.
It's a lot of talk aboutfragmentation.
(21:09):
It's every state's municipality.
It's very fragmented.
There are still places in thecountry that have not yet
digitalized their title, so it'sgoing to take a long time, but
I do think that that's the mostobvious place for blockchain to
go I might have funny enoughthrough some other work that I'm
doing, um, learning about titleprocessing and the money flow
(21:34):
that goes behind it.
Sam Maule (21:36):
Yeah, if you really want to laugh, the volume of
checks and I'm talking checks,checks, physical checks that
flow around, that is staggering,absolutely staggering.
And, amanda, you're going toget a special prize I don't know
what, yet Some kind of stickerI'm going to send you.
She just gave us an idea for agreat future show about the
(21:59):
impact of crypto when it doescome to underwriting, when it
comes to taxes, when it comes toanalyzing personal wealth.
It's hilarious.
I hadn't thought of that.
That's a great future show.
Amanda Orson (22:11):
It's a big problem .
It's a big problem.
I would say it's a particularlybig problem because there are
lots of people who are walkingaround like circa 2021 the last
time we had an all time high.
Lots of you know guys that were, say, under 35, that could buy
any home that couldn't actuallybe underwritten for any home
(22:31):
because the vast majority oftheir net worth was tied up in
crypto.
So the only way they were goingto get in is by liquidating the
underlying asset that wasproviding that net worth, and
they weren't going to do that.
So it is a real problem and Ido think that it's a niche.
It's one that I think we're notnear maturity yet, but if we
have Bitcoin ETFs now, I thinkthat we should be entertaining.
How do we more intelligentlyunderwrite, at least for the
(22:53):
blue chip crypto in the future?
Sam Maule (22:56):
You just hit on the sweet spot of this podcast.
That's why I call itartificially intelligent,
because it's what is?
These things we don't know alot about, but it can go really
deep.
You know that are narrow anddeep and fascinating.
And again dealing with the MLSand what's out there.
And on this end it'sfascinating what's next for you?
I mean, obviously you'regrowing the company out.
(23:18):
You're coming up on what a yearnow.
So what's what's next for thecompany?
Where are you headed?
Amanda Orson (23:30):
We're not a year in yet.
Sam Maule (23:30):
It feels sometimes like it's been 10 years, but no,
we're not even a year in yet.
Every starter, yeah, Everyfounder.
How's it been?
Oh my God, this decade has beenoh wait a minute six months.
Amanda Orson (23:43):
The decade, over the last six months.
So we're actually we're I wouldsay, a week or two away away
from making a significantannouncement.
I will say next week we'regoing to ship a site redesign
live.
So that should be live.
And then what's next?
From there?
We have the team that we'regoing to have in place for now
in place.
That's the most exciting thingis that we actually sort of like
put the wheels on the car, putthe car together and now we're
(24:04):
ready to go off to the racetrack.
Uh, I would say, watch thisspace.
Maia Bittner (24:10):
I was just.
I mean, uh, I think by the timethis episode goes live, it
sounds like that'll happen, sothere'll be a fancy new website
for our listeners to go checkout.
Sam Maule (24:22):
Yeah, perfect timing.
So with that, amanda, where'sthe best place?
What's the best place for thelisteners to learn?
See the new website and diveinto a market disruptor.
Where should they go?
Amanda Orson (24:36):
It's galleonio G-A-L-L-E-O-Nio.
I would say that right now, thething that would be most
interesting and is the productwe've already shipped is our two
minutes to list marketplace.
Basically, if you have a houseand you have a price in mind and
one photograph of it, sign uptakes two minutes to list.
(24:57):
There's no commitment and, mostimportantly, there is no days
on market.
So, since this is a financialaudience, days on market is
really important.
It's a feature and not a bug ofthe existing MLS.
You can think of the existingMLS system as a place for
motivated sellers, but anybodywho sold a house or two knows
that days on market compressesyour price.
So we are the place forpersuadable sellers and
(25:29):
motivated buyers who want tofind an off-market deal or maybe
a property in an area thatthey're otherwise closed out of
because there's not enoughinventory.
That's why you can take twominutes, list your house and you
do not have any obligation tokeep it up.
Sam Maule (25:39):
You can take it down at any time.
All we need is a price, a photoand you're good to go.
That's how you sell everybody.
Let me just help you out.
If you can talk to a concept inunder 20 seconds and you just
get it, nod your head.
Maia Bittner (25:46):
You have a winner.
Sam Maule (25:47):
I don't know how many startups I've got to give this
speech to.
It gets exhausting.
Thank God, with Amanda,industry better.
We don't have to do that.
Folks, that's going to do itfor this week's podcast.
Please reach out to me ifyou've got ideas for shows,
Amanda.
By the way, gold star going tosend something your way for the
idea on underwriting and cryptoand other forms of wealth.
Reach out to me on LinkedIneverybody, Great place to do it
(26:09):
or on Twitter.
How about you, Maya?
Maia Bittner (26:12):
Always come hang out with me on Twitter.
I'm at Maya B.
I would love to hear how muchyou would sell your house for if
you didn't have to go throughthe rigmarole.
Sam Maule (26:23):
Thanks for listening, everybody.
We'll see you next week.
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