May 31, 2024 • 28 mins
What if the secret to preserving family wealth across generations lies hidden in the history books? We venture back to the roots of family offices, drawing lessons from the legendary Morgans and Rockerfellers. Hosts Sam Maule and Maia Bittner share compelling personal stories and historical insights, setting the stage for a deep dive into the evolution of family offices. Our special guest, Simran Kang, founder of MyFO-Tech and former PwC strategist, provides a rich perspective on how family offices maintain intergenerational wealth amidst alarming attrition rates.
Ever wondered how the ultra-wealthy manage their vast fortunes? Join us as we explore the sophisticated ecosystem of family offices in the U.S., which oversee billions in assets. This chapter uncovers the complexities of targeting affluent individuals with over a million dollars in assets looking for diverse investment options. Simran shares her expertise on the critical role of professional management in family offices and the importance of technological tools for seamless operation. We also navigate the murky waters of regulatory challenges and the risks that come with poor management practices.
Imagine replacing your chaotic Excel sheets and notebooks with advanced digital tools for wealth management. This episode reveals the transformative power of specialized software in organizing family and business documents. We discuss the integration of AI to simplify legal complexities and the emotional resistance people have towards abandoning traditional methods. Lastly, we touch on the impactful role of philanthropy and collective giving in managing family wealth. Tune in for invaluable insights and practical advice that bridge the gap between old-school financial management and modern technological solutions.
Hosts: Sam Maule & Maia Bittner
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sam Maule (00:06):
Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of
Artificially Intelligent broughtto you by Money 2020.
I am one of your hosts, SamMaule.
Maia Bittner (00:14):
And I am your other co-host, Maia Bittner.
Welcome back.
Sam Maule (00:19):
And this episode is going to be fantastic because
one my dogs are just wanderingaround like crazy so you can
hear the pitter patter of twoadorable paws that are going on.
And then Maia is.
You know Maia's being Maia.
Oh yeah, I showed up wearing atiny baby.
Maia Bittner (00:38):
I also have roofers here.
I hope you don't hear them inthe background.
I'm finally getting my rooffixed.
It's been broken since webought this house over three
years ago and I've been busy, soI am grateful that they're here
, but I hope that we can makethe recording sound good.
Sam Maule (00:55):
It's amazing how life just goes on right.
Sun comes up every day, nomatter what we do.
So there you go, Maia.
Did you know that I actuallyhold two degrees and one of my
degrees is in history?
Would you have ever guessed?
Maia Bittner (01:08):
that I did not know.
Sam Maule (01:09):
Yeah, my intent was when I used to work for Northern
Trust back in the nineties andI had an ESOP everybody that Sam
Maule is going to retire veryrich in the thirties, when he
was in his thirties and he wasgoing to be a history teacher
and that panned out so well.
Let me just tell you greatplanning, but I love history.
I love studying history.
Maia Bittner (01:29):
You're not surprised by that.
I especially love history.
Sam Maule (01:32):
Just that's my jam.
Maia Bittner (01:33):
When you got facts , you know and how all the
pieces of things connect to eachother.
I'm not surprised you hear that.
Sam Maule (01:40):
I love that part.
So when we were prepping fortoday's show, because I love
that part, so when we wereprepping for today's show,
because we're going to betalking about family offices, I
did a little bit of history onthis and our guest is probably
going to correct me on this, butthis is the Sam Hall test.
See how well I did that.
(02:00):
The concept of the familyoffice actually dates back to JP
Morgan and his family in 1838.
So when the IndustrialRevolution and the titans of
industry popped up in the UnitedStates, this concept of
managing the family assets JPMorgan yet another thing we can
credit that family with.
And then the Rockefellers,around 1882, are widely credited
with establishing the firstfull service single family
office in the US, Because at thetime his fortune stood at $1.4
(02:22):
billion, which seems not thatmuch.
Oh, it's the equivalent of $255billion today.
There you go.
Elon Musk was like that'snothing.
Maia Bittner (02:30):
There you go.
We know the Morgan Library isone of my favorite places in New
York.
Have you been to the MorganLibrary?
Sam Maule (02:37):
I have.
I'm a library fanatic, me too.
I love books, me too.
There's nothing better than agreat library.
If you really want tounderstand the importance of
wealth management, go to theBiltmore Estate, because it's
amazing how that family wentfrom that type of wealth and
built the Biltmore Estate inAsheville to I think it was two
generations later, more or less,being broke.
So, hey, everybody, a familyoffice concept is very important
(03:02):
, and hence our guest today,which I have known, Simran, for
ages.
Simran Kang, how are you?
Simran Kang (03:08):
How are you doing Great, yeah, nice to see you
again.
Sam Maule (03:12):
It is great to see you.
Do you mind telling us a littlebit about your company and why
this concept of a family officeis so important?
Simran Kang (03:20):
Absolutely Well.
First of all, I want to tellyou you're correct in your
history facts.
So those are the two familiesthat are often credited with
founding the concept of a familyoffice, if you don't think
about royal families andlineages and how they've done it
.
So yeah, you are a history buff, I'm also a history buff, so
(03:46):
yeah.
So my company is called MyFO,my Family Office.
The concept came to be a fewyears ago.
When I first met Sam, I wasstill playing around with the
idea and it was because I wasworking with a lot of family
offices and advising them on howthey actually protected their
(04:10):
wealth.
You gave the example of theBaltimore estate.
Often families lose theirwealth by the third generation.
So the second generationusually sees a 70% attrition and
by the third generation it's a90% attrition.
So these families that you seethat maintain intergenerational
wealth.
There's actually a lot of workthat goes into maintaining that
(04:33):
and a lot of planning, and as Iwas learning that, it seemed
like something I should actuallyhelp the masses learn and it
shouldn't just be gatekept to acertain number of families, and
that was kind of the conceptbehind it, and I thought the
best way to do that was actuallyto create technology around it
because it's scalable andaccessible.
Sam Maule (04:55):
You actually spent, if I remember right, going back
in how old does Sam all rememberhistory?
You actually have a prettystrong background with PwC,
right?
Didn't you spend a significantamount of time with them?
Simran Kang (05:06):
I did.
I was there for almost a decadeand the last kind of five years
of my career there I spentworking with their family office
clients and generally you'llfind accountants end up being
trusted advisors because they'redoing estate planning, due
diligence on deals and so Iended up having this
unobstructed view into the innerworkings of family offices
(05:30):
because you are somebody thatthey trust and they come to for
decision making.
Sam Maule (05:35):
So a quick question on my part.
I was shocked.
When I did a little bit ofresearch.
There's between 6,000 and 7,000family offices in the US.
I didn't realize there werethat many.
That's a great team, by the way.
Simran Kang (05:51):
Oh yeah, and that's actually probably an
underestimation of how muchwealth there actually is,
because it's really hard totrack it, because it's in
holding companies, trusts,multiple ownerships and, if you
think about it, that thresholdfor that 6,000 is about 500
million to be categorized as afamily office.
(06:14):
And so you think about the TAM.
Underneath that of all themillionaires there are.
Who's actually servicing themand how are they protecting
their wealth and creatingintergenerational wealth,
especially when you look at thewealth paradigm in today's world
, people look different.
They have different backgrounds.
(06:34):
They're not, you know.
They're often building theirwealth and this is their first
generation having wealth andthey're not coming from those
traditional family offices whereyou maybe have an
infrastructure in place toprotect your money.
Maia Bittner (06:47):
That's what I was going to ask is like, who are
you really targeting Right?
Is it the like software forexisting family offices that
have been running their businessin a different way, or is it
sort of expanding the market toinclude people who might not be
traditionally served by a familyoffice?
And and yeah, I don't know ifyou think about personas or
(07:07):
anything like that, but is therewho is your like ideal customer
profile?
What kind of assets do theyhave?
Help us kind of calibrate.
Simran Kang (07:18):
Yeah, so our ideal customer persona is really
someone that's accumulatedwealth, like over a million
dollars, and is looking for waysto invest it in alternative
ways.
So they're not traditionallylooking for just public equities
and private equities, so theyhave more complexity around
their wealth, and so that'swhere we're trying to help
(07:40):
people.
Obviously, going to marketdirectly to those consumers is
really difficult, so when we dosell directly to single family
offices because they don'treally have the digital tools to
actually run a sophisticatedfamily office and so we're often
just competing with Excel,dropbox, so basic banking is
(08:02):
what you're saying yeah, yeah,yeah, Banking, banking
infrastructure is Excel, Um andso, uh, so that's what we're
competing with on that side, andthen for us to actually um
reach our thesis and our endgoal, which is to actually make
this accessible.
We we licensed the product toadvisors and large institutions
(08:24):
so that they can actually use itfor a wider breadth of their
customer base.
Sam Maule (08:28):
You know, one statistic that stood out to me
and I was very surprised by thisthat only around 10% of family
office CEOs in the US areactually family members.
I was surprised by this this isgoing.
I bet the Rockefellers and JPMorgan would have hated that,
but that was surprising.
Simran Kang (08:48):
You'd be surprised how that's actually a really
good statistic, because youreally want to run your family
office like a corporation.
So it doesn't necessarily meanthat somebody within the family
is the right person to run thefamily office.
And so you know children growup.
You have different interests.
(09:09):
You might not want to be a CIOand look at private equity deals
and venture deals and benchmarkyour investments in an Excel
spreadsheet.
You probably have betteraspirations, like maybe you're a
history buff and you want toget your PhD in history, and so
there's actually like a lot ofwork that you know different
professors and universities doaround this, and John Davis came
(09:33):
up with the three circle model.
So in every family office you'reeither an owner, manager or a
family member, right?
And so where do you sit in that?
Those three circles and thatVenn diagram is really important
because you could be a manager,but that doesn't necessarily
mean you have to be a familymember and you can be an owner
(09:57):
that is maybe a family member,or even maybe management earns
some equity, right.
And so when you think aboutmanagement, you're really
thinking of it as a stakeholder,as a family member.
If you are an owner, which is,am I the best person to run this
, or if I had like.
You have to think of it as,like I have a lot of stake and
share in this business and so ifI was a major stakeholder in,
(10:22):
you know, tesla, does thatnecessarily mean I need to be
the CEO?
Yeah, maybe you would be abetter CEO than Elon Musk, but
that might not be the rightanswer.
So you want to hire the bestperson to actually operate your
family office and that canactually lead to longevity and
building governance andstrategies around that.
Sam Maule (10:44):
So either Maia or I are going to ask this question
and we'll get it by his face.
I've got to ask the regulatoryoversight because I don't know.
So where is this?
What does this fall under?
Because, again, if I'm notmistaken, these aren't like
massive organizations.
This is very small right, Maybeunder 10 people or even five.
Simran Kang (10:59):
So what's the?
Oversight for this in aregulatory side there isn't much
right Because it's private.
It's private wealth right, andthat's where the risk of this
attrition comes into play, right.
If you don't know how to hire amanager or you are the manager
and you don't actually know howto vet investments and do due
(11:20):
diligence, you can lose thatwealth very quickly, like you
can't outperform bad planningright, and so that's a huge risk
factor for family offices.
And when regulatory compliancebecomes an issue is when you are
actually co-investinggovernance around family offices
so that you can have decisionmaking matrices to protect your
(11:42):
well.
Maia Bittner (12:00):
Well, no, I actually like.
I mean, I also think it's likeI'm just thinking about from a
regulatory perspective.
Mostly, regulators are like inall of our financial kind of
like investment regulation isabout protecting like mom and
pop or like dentists or likepeople on the street right, and
it's like these people have alot of money.
(12:20):
Um, I feel like our regulationis almost intentionally not that
, not that worried.
It's like look, you've gotmoney to lose.
Um, we assume that you'resophisticated.
This is what right, like all ofour accredited investor
qualifications and even thequalified purchasers.
It's sort of like we're goingto let you do what you want with
your money and you know if itloses them.
(12:42):
Or the governance perspectivethat's okay, like that's not the
top priority for regulators.
Simran Kang (12:48):
Absolutely Like.
We see that across the board,financial education within
family offices is a huge issueand so even when we built our
platform, we built it investmentagnostic, so we're like we
don't want to sell product, Idon't want to broker anything.
I really want people to come onhere and learn how to manage a
family office and learn bestpractices, like the amount of
(13:09):
time and energy that familyoffices have to put in to
actually do financial educationwithin their family.
It's quite expensive.
They spend a lot of moneytrying to do that and not every
family member is going to go gettheir MBA.
That's an unrealisticexpectation that they're all
going to become finance experts,right?
Maia Bittner (13:30):
And so how that makes so much sense.
Yeah, finance experts, right.
And so how that makes so muchsense, Right.
And how do you scale thateducation and who's sort of
leading the charge like?
Who's a champion within thefamily for that?
I just finished listening to theAcquired podcast.
I don't know if you guys listento it, it's a favorite of mine.
I love Acquired.
And they did a deep dive ontothe company Hermes.
(13:50):
And Hermes is a family-ownedcompany.
Like all, the leaders of Hermeshave generally been part of the
family and they very nearlylost the company due to a
sophisticated hostile takeoverattempt from LVMH.
And it's because they justapproached individual members of
(14:12):
the family, offered to buytheir shares, their stock, and
nobody really realized what wasgoing on.
There was no right, thatgovernance, that central
planning piece.
It was just unsophisticatedindividual family members
selling their stock for a greatprice to a nice guy.
And they very nearly lost totalcontrol of the company because
of it and had to do this heroiclast-ditch effort to recover it.
(14:35):
So interesting story First timeI had heard of it Illustrates
the problems that you're talkingabout and I also recommend,
yeah, listening to the advice.
Sam Maule (14:42):
You know, Simran, one of the things I remember when
you first showed me the productand I, you know we were laughing
about Excel, right, but come on, you must run on Excel.
One of the things you showed methat made me laugh was the
vault component.
You have Just basicdocumentation and the issue you
run into when you're runningsomething like this.
(15:04):
Can you talk about thatcomponent a little bit and why
you built the vault app?
Simran Kang (15:08):
Well, I actually think every family needs that
(15:33):
no-transcript.
Somebody has thought of this,of linking the two together.
Because I was manually doing it.
I had spreadsheets for familiesand then every time a document
was missing they would call meand they're like do you know
what our last trust distributionpolicy was?
Where's the last edit of theletter of wishes?
(15:55):
Or where's this?
And even with my own family Iwas like I have no idea who my
dad's lawyer is.
If anything happened to him Iwould be scrambling.
Sam Maule (16:04):
It's in that safe in the back of the closet, that
little Costco safe you bought.
Yeah, that no one rememberswhere the key is, so you just
leave it unlocked.
Simran Kang (16:12):
It's there, yeah, it's in there and it's like five
years outdated.
If you're lucky, right.
And if you think about that,that's planning that families
think maybe own.
Like we talk about mom and popbusinesses that own a business
(16:42):
that could be the backbone of acommunity, right, and then that
business probably doesn't have aproper shareholder agreement,
doesn't have succession planningand these are things people
don't know.
Like I worked with a family atone and they had a hundred
million dollars in real estateassets and we were doing some
(17:02):
governance around it and I saidcan we look at your shareholder
agreement of the holding companythat holds all the real estate?
And they said why do we need ashareholder agreement?
And so you and those are likebasic things and having.
I remember when I showed Samthe vault, it was just like we
just had pre-populated foldersof the documents you should have
(17:23):
, based on the list of yourassets and your estate.
And people were like, oh my God, this is.
I had a family office that,before I built the product, paid
me just for the list of thefolders they should have.
Because they were like, yeah,that makes sense to me, yeah, we
want a completeness check.
And then now, like with AIcoming in play, we've
(17:45):
incorporated that into theplatform.
So I'm like get AI to reviewthat shareholder agreement and
explain it to you in layman'sterms.
Like don't spend $50,000 with alawyer trying to understand
something you're too scared toask about, right?
Sam Maule (17:58):
The old auditor in me .
Yeah, I'm part of this, Maia.
I was going to tell you, did Ihave?
Simran Kang (18:02):
to tell you what my first banking job was Maia.
Sam Maule (18:05):
I was a SAS 70 auditor.
Maia Bittner (18:06):
No.
Sam Maule (18:06):
We can all laugh now, because if anybody knows me,
and my ADD.
You're like you have literallyno attention span, but my first
job was as a SAS 70 auditor forNorthern Trust.
So that list and that auditcomponent kicks in my mind and
it almost seems like a productof let me give you a my office
score, let me give you a familyoffice score, right To be able
(18:27):
to go in and say you know howprotected are you actually for
this?
I mean, it's like I said thefirst time you showed me that I
was like, oh wow, never thoughtof that.
Simran Kang (18:37):
We have a lot in common.
I'm a recovering auditor too.
Sam Maule (18:39):
I apologize, I started an audit at PwC.
Simran Kang (18:41):
Yeah, I'm so sorry.
Maia Bittner (18:47):
Right Everything you know.
The status quo is just soshockingly manual.
I'm part of this WhatsApp groupof people who have over $5
million in liquid assets orsomething like that and they
chatted recently like how do youtrack your investments where
they are, your net worth, stufflike that and one or two people
(19:09):
use software and everyone else Imean beyond Excel, everyone
else was in Excel.
Everyone was like this is whatworks for me.
Once a month, I log into all ofmy accounts and pull the
numbers and update the thingsand go from there.
Some people had hired personalassistants or things to do the
once a month pull, but it wassurprisingly manual given the
(19:30):
tools available.
Sam Maule (19:30):
I'm not shocked whatsoever from that.
Maia Bittner (19:33):
When I was with 11FS when I worked with 11FS,
when I was with 11FS.
Sam Maule (19:37):
We worked with FNBO, so out of Omaha Massive Bank,
but we were taking a look atbuilding out a digital banking
product for them.
So we did jobs to be done anddid a ton of interviews across
the country with people and it'srather funny how we fell into
this.
But we were basically askingpeople how do they save toward
(19:57):
goals?
And there was the number oneand number two answer.
I didn't care where you livedin the US, your age, your wealth
status, where you're at on thescale.
It was either a notebook orMicrosoft Excel, and they were
all proud of it and would showus how they were tracking.
(20:17):
So I am not shocked whatsoever.
Maia Bittner (20:21):
Well, hold on a second.
I'm interested in that.
So proud.
I think the emotional componentis really interesting here.
I don't know if you saw justtoday, I believe but recent
Patrick no, not Patrick, patio11.
What is his real name?
I don't know.
Patrick, no, not PatrickPatio11, what is his real name?
I don't know.
Patio11, on Twitter, posted anarticle going into credit card
(20:42):
rewards and what he said is thatanybody who has the Excel
skills to gamify credit cardrewards, optimize the signup
bonuses, figure all that stuffout.
He's like they could be makingthree times as much money from
the finance industry by doingsomething else.
(21:03):
Right, like, if they have thoseExcel skills, it's such a low
leverage point to put themtowards optimizing credit card
bonuses.
Rachel, our producer, thank you, patrick McKenzie.
That's his real name.
I think of him as Patio11.
I bet he answers to that.
I don't think he's offendedGreat shout out.
(21:24):
So right.
It's like if you've got thoseExcel skills and it's like you
should put that, you can makemore money putting them to
something else.
And when I saw that I thoughthe's so right, like it is such a
low leverage thing to put yourtime and attention towards.
But I don't think it's justabout the money.
I think for a lot of people itis a form of entertainment and
recreation and for a lot ofpeople they're kind of proud of
(21:47):
it.
You know there's somethinginteresting there and I wonder
if you know we're sort of it'skind of a naive, techno-optimist
viewpoint to be like we shouldautomate all this stuff with
special purpose software, whenit's like you know the people
might be, they're proud of itand they might be interested in
it.
And I do think if you spend alot of time using like either
(22:09):
pen and paper, even Excel, likeentering things and reviewing
things, you sort of trainyourself to get this like
embodied cognition andunderstand things on a really
deep level that you cansometimes lose if software
automates it all or does it allfor you.
So it depends, not everyone isinterested, as right Simran
talked about you know they'reforcing financial education down
(22:30):
people's throats and they don'tget you know.
So it's a mix, but for somepeople I don't want to like
encroach on one of theirfavorite I I I'm with you on
excel.
Simran Kang (22:40):
I used to I like, even when I was an auditor, I'd
have these like goodwillanalytics that we would do, and
I was like I wish there was amuseum.
It's like a work of art.
I want to print it and it ispeople to admire my excel.
But it's it, is it?
It's actually so.
It's like the number of timeswe have a family member, spend
half of our like discoverymeeting with them, walking us
(23:02):
through their Excel spreadsheet.
It's like it's like a limbright that they've created.
But what ends up happening?
And and so what was funny is Ialways used Excel.
My co-founder, alice, had anotebook.
She was a lawyer, so she didn'tuse Excel, so she kept a
notebook of her investment.
So every so often she'd bereconciling it.
But what you find is in thosefamily offices.
(23:25):
And the reason you have thisproblem with maintaining
intergenerational wealth is you,not everyone is great at using
Excel, right?
And then, even if you are goodat using Excel, gathering that
data when you don't have dataautomation is really cumbersome.
It's prone to errors, andoftentimes, if you're putting an
(23:46):
Excel spreadsheet togetherevery couple months, that
information is a few monthsoutdated, right?
So you're not making real-timedecisions.
And so I do think everyoneshould be proficient in Excel,
and they should be proficient inExcel and they should be
proficient in finance, but thereality is they're just not, and
so what ends up happening isthe ones that are proficient in
those things move so muchfurther ahead and it leaves
(24:08):
behind people that don't havethat skillset, and those are the
people we want to be able touse a tool like ours and
actually be able to catch up andspend very little time doing
that.
Sam Maule (24:19):
Yeah, another component of this I was just
thinking about.
I was thinking about MackenzieScott, so Jeff Bezos, ex-wife
who's given away thephilanthropy side of wealth,
which is a big part of you know,folks with a lot of money and
what all goes into tracking thatright and that component of it.
That has to be a significantpart too, doesn't?
Simran Kang (24:41):
it.
Yeah, we actually have a wholecomponent of managing
foundations.
Sam Maule (24:44):
Thank God I was going out on a limb everybody.
That was me just tossing oneover the fence hoping that was
you.
Simran Kang (24:49):
No, because like some families, like they will
have, like some of the likeiconic American families we talk
about, those are families I'veworked with and they are
families that have put all theirmoney into a foundation, or
most of it in a foundation, andthen the family is actually just
stewarding a foundation.
So when they think about theirwealth, it's like they feel the
(25:12):
sense of ownership over thefoundation, and foundations have
specific rules and mandates ofhow often are you spending that
money, how much liquidity do youhave?
You're still investing it beforeyou're deploying it and giving
it away, so you're growing itand so there's a whole method to
doing that.
And even in smaller families,what you'll find is and these
(25:34):
were some of the families wewere interviewing as we were
building the product is, youknow, maybe the family
collectively, as a few siblings,they're worth like 10, 15
million and each of them iswriting two $300 checks to
different foundations and doingdonations.
But if you aggregate it all,you're like you're actually
donating 10 or $20,000 a year.
Maybe if you did, you couldgive one big give that can have
(25:58):
a larger impact.
So, thinking about your wealthand the power that it has and
the impacts that it can make.
It's not just about growing itand being richer, it's also
about giving it away, and so thedefinition of wealth is
different for everybody, and howthey want to manage it is
different for each person too.
Sam Maule (26:17):
I just want to hear the baby make noise again,
because I just made my day whenthe baby could, so I'm being,
I'm being quiet, my, so the babywill say something you want the
baby again.
Maia Bittner (26:28):
We definitely got to work that into the podcast.
She's, she's sleeping, oh, butshe's oh grunts and makes those
funny newborn sleeping noisesall the time.
Sam Maule (26:40):
I absolutely love that.
Well, Simran, thank you.
It's amazing, when we've had ahistory lesson, that we actually
got right.
We've actually identified amassive market which, again, I
think most of our listeners hadno clue.
There's 6,000 to 7, thousandfamily offices in the US, so
where can the listeners learnmore about one?
(27:01):
Reach out to you, but then alsolearn about the company.
What's the best place?
Simran Kang (27:06):
Our website, myfotech, is the best place to
go.
You can also find us onLinkedIn.
Our entire team is prettyactive on there.
Our entire team is prettyactive on there.
And then if you do have cohorts, like Maia, the one that you're
in we have like a Michael Lightversion for customers like that
.
So if they want to beta test itor use it, happy to share that
(27:27):
with them.
Yeah, we're really excited tojust give people access to these
tools.
Sam Maule (27:33):
Fantastic.
All right, hey, mackenzie Scott, there you go.
We'll make sure we'll passalong the link to you.
Everybody thanks for listeningthis week.
As always, please go out andgive us a review.
It really helps draw inlisteners.
You want to reach out to mewith ideas for a show?
Linkedin always is great, orTwitter, Maia, how about you?
Maia Bittner (27:50):
Hey, twitter is the best place to find me.
I'm at Maia B If you ever DM meabout family offices, tech
opportunities or what you aremost proud of having built in
Excel.
Sam Maule (28:01):
Amen, Thank you everybody.
Thanks for listening.
Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of
Artificially Intelligent broughtto you by Money 2020.
I am one of your hosts, SamMaule.
Maia Bittner (00:14):
And I am your other co-host, Maia Bittner.
Welcome back.
Sam Maule (00:19):
And this episode is going to be fantastic because
one my dogs are just wanderingaround like crazy so you can
hear the pitter patter of twoadorable paws that are going on.
And then Maia is.
You know Maia's being Maia.
Oh yeah, I showed up wearing atiny baby.
Maia Bittner (00:38):
I also have roofers here.
I hope you don't hear them inthe background.
I'm finally getting my rooffixed.
It's been broken since webought this house over three
years ago and I've been busy, soI am grateful that they're here
, but I hope that we can makethe recording sound good.
Sam Maule (00:55):
It's amazing how life just goes on right.
Sun comes up every day, nomatter what we do.
So there you go, Maia.
Did you know that I actuallyhold two degrees and one of my
degrees is in history?
Would you have ever guessed?
Maia Bittner (01:08):
that I did not know.
Sam Maule (01:09):
Yeah, my intent was when I used to work for Northern
Trust back in the nineties andI had an ESOP everybody that Sam
Maule is going to retire veryrich in the thirties, when he
was in his thirties and he wasgoing to be a history teacher
and that panned out so well.
Let me just tell you greatplanning, but I love history.
I love studying history.
Maia Bittner (01:29):
You're not surprised by that.
I especially love history.
Sam Maule (01:32):
Just that's my jam.
Maia Bittner (01:33):
When you got facts , you know and how all the
pieces of things connect to eachother.
I'm not surprised you hear that.
Sam Maule (01:40):
I love that part.
So when we were prepping fortoday's show, because I love
that part, so when we wereprepping for today's show,
because we're going to betalking about family offices, I
did a little bit of history onthis and our guest is probably
going to correct me on this, butthis is the Sam Hall test.
See how well I did that.
(02:00):
The concept of the familyoffice actually dates back to JP
Morgan and his family in 1838.
So when the IndustrialRevolution and the titans of
industry popped up in the UnitedStates, this concept of
managing the family assets JPMorgan yet another thing we can
credit that family with.
And then the Rockefellers,around 1882, are widely credited
with establishing the firstfull service single family
office in the US, Because at thetime his fortune stood at $1.4
(02:22):
billion, which seems not thatmuch.
Oh, it's the equivalent of $255billion today.
There you go.
Elon Musk was like that'snothing.
Maia Bittner (02:30):
There you go.
We know the Morgan Library isone of my favorite places in New
York.
Have you been to the MorganLibrary?
Sam Maule (02:37):
I have.
I'm a library fanatic, me too.
I love books, me too.
There's nothing better than agreat library.
If you really want tounderstand the importance of
wealth management, go to theBiltmore Estate, because it's
amazing how that family wentfrom that type of wealth and
built the Biltmore Estate inAsheville to I think it was two
generations later, more or less,being broke.
So, hey, everybody, a familyoffice concept is very important
(03:02):
, and hence our guest today,which I have known, Simran, for
ages.
Simran Kang, how are you?
Simran Kang (03:08):
How are you doing Great, yeah, nice to see you
again.
Sam Maule (03:12):
It is great to see you.
Do you mind telling us a littlebit about your company and why
this concept of a family officeis so important?
Simran Kang (03:20):
Absolutely Well.
First of all, I want to tellyou you're correct in your
history facts.
So those are the two familiesthat are often credited with
founding the concept of a familyoffice, if you don't think
about royal families andlineages and how they've done it
.
So yeah, you are a history buff, I'm also a history buff, so
(03:46):
yeah.
So my company is called MyFO,my Family Office.
The concept came to be a fewyears ago.
When I first met Sam, I wasstill playing around with the
idea and it was because I wasworking with a lot of family
offices and advising them on howthey actually protected their
(04:10):
wealth.
You gave the example of theBaltimore estate.
Often families lose theirwealth by the third generation.
So the second generationusually sees a 70% attrition and
by the third generation it's a90% attrition.
So these families that you seethat maintain intergenerational
wealth.
There's actually a lot of workthat goes into maintaining that
(04:33):
and a lot of planning, and as Iwas learning that, it seemed
like something I should actuallyhelp the masses learn and it
shouldn't just be gatekept to acertain number of families, and
that was kind of the conceptbehind it, and I thought the
best way to do that was actuallyto create technology around it
because it's scalable andaccessible.
Sam Maule (04:55):
You actually spent, if I remember right, going back
in how old does Sam all rememberhistory?
You actually have a prettystrong background with PwC,
right?
Didn't you spend a significantamount of time with them?
Simran Kang (05:06):
I did.
I was there for almost a decadeand the last kind of five years
of my career there I spentworking with their family office
clients and generally you'llfind accountants end up being
trusted advisors because they'redoing estate planning, due
diligence on deals and so Iended up having this
unobstructed view into the innerworkings of family offices
(05:30):
because you are somebody thatthey trust and they come to for
decision making.
Sam Maule (05:35):
So a quick question on my part.
I was shocked.
When I did a little bit ofresearch.
There's between 6,000 and 7,000family offices in the US.
I didn't realize there werethat many.
That's a great team, by the way.
Simran Kang (05:51):
Oh yeah, and that's actually probably an
underestimation of how muchwealth there actually is,
because it's really hard totrack it, because it's in
holding companies, trusts,multiple ownerships and, if you
think about it, that thresholdfor that 6,000 is about 500
million to be categorized as afamily office.
(06:14):
And so you think about the TAM.
Underneath that of all themillionaires there are.
Who's actually servicing themand how are they protecting
their wealth and creatingintergenerational wealth,
especially when you look at thewealth paradigm in today's world
, people look different.
They have different backgrounds.
(06:34):
They're not, you know.
They're often building theirwealth and this is their first
generation having wealth andthey're not coming from those
traditional family offices whereyou maybe have an
infrastructure in place toprotect your money.
Maia Bittner (06:47):
That's what I was going to ask is like, who are
you really targeting Right?
Is it the like software forexisting family offices that
have been running their businessin a different way, or is it
sort of expanding the market toinclude people who might not be
traditionally served by a familyoffice?
And and yeah, I don't know ifyou think about personas or
(07:07):
anything like that, but is therewho is your like ideal customer
profile?
What kind of assets do theyhave?
Help us kind of calibrate.
Simran Kang (07:18):
Yeah, so our ideal customer persona is really
someone that's accumulatedwealth, like over a million
dollars, and is looking for waysto invest it in alternative
ways.
So they're not traditionallylooking for just public equities
and private equities, so theyhave more complexity around
their wealth, and so that'swhere we're trying to help
(07:40):
people.
Obviously, going to marketdirectly to those consumers is
really difficult, so when we dosell directly to single family
offices because they don'treally have the digital tools to
actually run a sophisticatedfamily office and so we're often
just competing with Excel,dropbox, so basic banking is
(08:02):
what you're saying yeah, yeah,yeah, Banking, banking
infrastructure is Excel, Um andso, uh, so that's what we're
competing with on that side, andthen for us to actually um
reach our thesis and our endgoal, which is to actually make
this accessible.
We we licensed the product toadvisors and large institutions
(08:24):
so that they can actually use itfor a wider breadth of their
customer base.
Sam Maule (08:28):
You know, one statistic that stood out to me
and I was very surprised by thisthat only around 10% of family
office CEOs in the US areactually family members.
I was surprised by this this isgoing.
I bet the Rockefellers and JPMorgan would have hated that,
but that was surprising.
Simran Kang (08:48):
You'd be surprised how that's actually a really
good statistic, because youreally want to run your family
office like a corporation.
So it doesn't necessarily meanthat somebody within the family
is the right person to run thefamily office.
And so you know children growup.
You have different interests.
(09:09):
You might not want to be a CIOand look at private equity deals
and venture deals and benchmarkyour investments in an Excel
spreadsheet.
You probably have betteraspirations, like maybe you're a
history buff and you want toget your PhD in history, and so
there's actually like a lot ofwork that you know different
professors and universities doaround this, and John Davis came
(09:33):
up with the three circle model.
So in every family office you'reeither an owner, manager or a
family member, right?
And so where do you sit in that?
Those three circles and thatVenn diagram is really important
because you could be a manager,but that doesn't necessarily
mean you have to be a familymember and you can be an owner
(09:57):
that is maybe a family member,or even maybe management earns
some equity, right.
And so when you think aboutmanagement, you're really
thinking of it as a stakeholder,as a family member.
If you are an owner, which is,am I the best person to run this
, or if I had like.
You have to think of it as,like I have a lot of stake and
share in this business and so ifI was a major stakeholder in,
(10:22):
you know, tesla, does thatnecessarily mean I need to be
the CEO?
Yeah, maybe you would be abetter CEO than Elon Musk, but
that might not be the rightanswer.
So you want to hire the bestperson to actually operate your
family office and that canactually lead to longevity and
building governance andstrategies around that.
Sam Maule (10:44):
So either Maia or I are going to ask this question
and we'll get it by his face.
I've got to ask the regulatoryoversight because I don't know.
So where is this?
What does this fall under?
Because, again, if I'm notmistaken, these aren't like
massive organizations.
This is very small right, Maybeunder 10 people or even five.
Simran Kang (10:59):
So what's the?
Oversight for this in aregulatory side there isn't much
right Because it's private.
It's private wealth right, andthat's where the risk of this
attrition comes into play, right.
If you don't know how to hire amanager or you are the manager
and you don't actually know howto vet investments and do due
(11:20):
diligence, you can lose thatwealth very quickly, like you
can't outperform bad planningright, and so that's a huge risk
factor for family offices.
And when regulatory compliancebecomes an issue is when you are
actually co-investinggovernance around family offices
so that you can have decisionmaking matrices to protect your
(11:42):
well.
Maia Bittner (12:00):
Well, no, I actually like.
I mean, I also think it's likeI'm just thinking about from a
regulatory perspective.
Mostly, regulators are like inall of our financial kind of
like investment regulation isabout protecting like mom and
pop or like dentists or likepeople on the street right, and
it's like these people have alot of money.
(12:20):
Um, I feel like our regulationis almost intentionally not that
, not that worried.
It's like look, you've gotmoney to lose.
Um, we assume that you'resophisticated.
This is what right, like all ofour accredited investor
qualifications and even thequalified purchasers.
It's sort of like we're goingto let you do what you want with
your money and you know if itloses them.
(12:42):
Or the governance perspectivethat's okay, like that's not the
top priority for regulators.
Simran Kang (12:48):
Absolutely Like.
We see that across the board,financial education within
family offices is a huge issueand so even when we built our
platform, we built it investmentagnostic, so we're like we
don't want to sell product, Idon't want to broker anything.
I really want people to come onhere and learn how to manage a
family office and learn bestpractices, like the amount of
(13:09):
time and energy that familyoffices have to put in to
actually do financial educationwithin their family.
It's quite expensive.
They spend a lot of moneytrying to do that and not every
family member is going to go gettheir MBA.
That's an unrealisticexpectation that they're all
going to become finance experts,right?
Maia Bittner (13:30):
And so how that makes so much sense.
Yeah, finance experts, right.
And so how that makes so muchsense, Right.
And how do you scale thateducation and who's sort of
leading the charge like?
Who's a champion within thefamily for that?
I just finished listening to theAcquired podcast.
I don't know if you guys listento it, it's a favorite of mine.
I love Acquired.
And they did a deep dive ontothe company Hermes.
(13:50):
And Hermes is a family-ownedcompany.
Like all, the leaders of Hermeshave generally been part of the
family and they very nearlylost the company due to a
sophisticated hostile takeoverattempt from LVMH.
And it's because they justapproached individual members of
(14:12):
the family, offered to buytheir shares, their stock, and
nobody really realized what wasgoing on.
There was no right, thatgovernance, that central
planning piece.
It was just unsophisticatedindividual family members
selling their stock for a greatprice to a nice guy.
And they very nearly lost totalcontrol of the company because
of it and had to do this heroiclast-ditch effort to recover it.
(14:35):
So interesting story First timeI had heard of it Illustrates
the problems that you're talkingabout and I also recommend,
yeah, listening to the advice.
Sam Maule (14:42):
You know, Simran, one of the things I remember when
you first showed me the productand I, you know we were laughing
about Excel, right, but come on, you must run on Excel.
One of the things you showed methat made me laugh was the
vault component.
You have Just basicdocumentation and the issue you
run into when you're runningsomething like this.
(15:04):
Can you talk about thatcomponent a little bit and why
you built the vault app?
Simran Kang (15:08):
Well, I actually think every family needs that
(15:33):
no-transcript.
Somebody has thought of this,of linking the two together.
Because I was manually doing it.
I had spreadsheets for familiesand then every time a document
was missing they would call meand they're like do you know
what our last trust distributionpolicy was?
Where's the last edit of theletter of wishes?
(15:55):
Or where's this?
And even with my own family Iwas like I have no idea who my
dad's lawyer is.
If anything happened to him Iwould be scrambling.
Sam Maule (16:04):
It's in that safe in the back of the closet, that
little Costco safe you bought.
Yeah, that no one rememberswhere the key is, so you just
leave it unlocked.
Simran Kang (16:12):
It's there, yeah, it's in there and it's like five
years outdated.
If you're lucky, right.
And if you think about that,that's planning that families
think maybe own.
Like we talk about mom and popbusinesses that own a business
(16:42):
that could be the backbone of acommunity, right, and then that
business probably doesn't have aproper shareholder agreement,
doesn't have succession planningand these are things people
don't know.
Like I worked with a family atone and they had a hundred
million dollars in real estateassets and we were doing some
(17:02):
governance around it and I saidcan we look at your shareholder
agreement of the holding companythat holds all the real estate?
And they said why do we need ashareholder agreement?
And so you and those are likebasic things and having.
I remember when I showed Samthe vault, it was just like we
just had pre-populated foldersof the documents you should have
(17:23):
, based on the list of yourassets and your estate.
And people were like, oh my God, this is.
I had a family office that,before I built the product, paid
me just for the list of thefolders they should have.
Because they were like, yeah,that makes sense to me, yeah, we
want a completeness check.
And then now, like with AIcoming in play, we've
(17:45):
incorporated that into theplatform.
So I'm like get AI to reviewthat shareholder agreement and
explain it to you in layman'sterms.
Like don't spend $50,000 with alawyer trying to understand
something you're too scared toask about, right?
Sam Maule (17:58):
The old auditor in me .
Yeah, I'm part of this, Maia.
I was going to tell you, did Ihave?
Simran Kang (18:02):
to tell you what my first banking job was Maia.
Sam Maule (18:05):
I was a SAS 70 auditor.
Maia Bittner (18:06):
No.
Sam Maule (18:06):
We can all laugh now, because if anybody knows me,
and my ADD.
You're like you have literallyno attention span, but my first
job was as a SAS 70 auditor forNorthern Trust.
So that list and that auditcomponent kicks in my mind and
it almost seems like a productof let me give you a my office
score, let me give you a familyoffice score, right To be able
(18:27):
to go in and say you know howprotected are you actually for
this?
I mean, it's like I said thefirst time you showed me that I
was like, oh wow, never thoughtof that.
Simran Kang (18:37):
We have a lot in common.
I'm a recovering auditor too.
Sam Maule (18:39):
I apologize, I started an audit at PwC.
Simran Kang (18:41):
Yeah, I'm so sorry.
Maia Bittner (18:47):
Right Everything you know.
The status quo is just soshockingly manual.
I'm part of this WhatsApp groupof people who have over $5
million in liquid assets orsomething like that and they
chatted recently like how do youtrack your investments where
they are, your net worth, stufflike that and one or two people
(19:09):
use software and everyone else Imean beyond Excel, everyone
else was in Excel.
Everyone was like this is whatworks for me.
Once a month, I log into all ofmy accounts and pull the
numbers and update the thingsand go from there.
Some people had hired personalassistants or things to do the
once a month pull, but it wassurprisingly manual given the
(19:30):
tools available.
Sam Maule (19:30):
I'm not shocked whatsoever from that.
Maia Bittner (19:33):
When I was with 11FS when I worked with 11FS,
when I was with 11FS.
Sam Maule (19:37):
We worked with FNBO, so out of Omaha Massive Bank,
but we were taking a look atbuilding out a digital banking
product for them.
So we did jobs to be done anddid a ton of interviews across
the country with people and it'srather funny how we fell into
this.
But we were basically askingpeople how do they save toward
(19:57):
goals?
And there was the number oneand number two answer.
I didn't care where you livedin the US, your age, your wealth
status, where you're at on thescale.
It was either a notebook orMicrosoft Excel, and they were
all proud of it and would showus how they were tracking.
(20:17):
So I am not shocked whatsoever.
Maia Bittner (20:21):
Well, hold on a second.
I'm interested in that.
So proud.
I think the emotional componentis really interesting here.
I don't know if you saw justtoday, I believe but recent
Patrick no, not Patrick, patio11.
What is his real name?
I don't know.
Patrick, no, not PatrickPatio11, what is his real name?
I don't know.
Patio11, on Twitter, posted anarticle going into credit card
(20:42):
rewards and what he said is thatanybody who has the Excel
skills to gamify credit cardrewards, optimize the signup
bonuses, figure all that stuffout.
He's like they could be makingthree times as much money from
the finance industry by doingsomething else.
(21:03):
Right, like, if they have thoseExcel skills, it's such a low
leverage point to put themtowards optimizing credit card
bonuses.
Rachel, our producer, thank you, patrick McKenzie.
That's his real name.
I think of him as Patio11.
I bet he answers to that.
I don't think he's offendedGreat shout out.
(21:24):
So right.
It's like if you've got thoseExcel skills and it's like you
should put that, you can makemore money putting them to
something else.
And when I saw that I thoughthe's so right, like it is such a
low leverage thing to put yourtime and attention towards.
But I don't think it's justabout the money.
I think for a lot of people itis a form of entertainment and
recreation and for a lot ofpeople they're kind of proud of
(21:47):
it.
You know there's somethinginteresting there and I wonder
if you know we're sort of it'skind of a naive, techno-optimist
viewpoint to be like we shouldautomate all this stuff with
special purpose software, whenit's like you know the people
might be, they're proud of itand they might be interested in
it.
And I do think if you spend alot of time using like either
(22:09):
pen and paper, even Excel, likeentering things and reviewing
things, you sort of trainyourself to get this like
embodied cognition andunderstand things on a really
deep level that you cansometimes lose if software
automates it all or does it allfor you.
So it depends, not everyone isinterested, as right Simran
talked about you know they'reforcing financial education down
(22:30):
people's throats and they don'tget you know.
So it's a mix, but for somepeople I don't want to like
encroach on one of theirfavorite I I I'm with you on
excel.
Simran Kang (22:40):
I used to I like, even when I was an auditor, I'd
have these like goodwillanalytics that we would do, and
I was like I wish there was amuseum.
It's like a work of art.
I want to print it and it ispeople to admire my excel.
But it's it, is it?
It's actually so.
It's like the number of timeswe have a family member, spend
half of our like discoverymeeting with them, walking us
(23:02):
through their Excel spreadsheet.
It's like it's like a limbright that they've created.
But what ends up happening?
And and so what was funny is Ialways used Excel.
My co-founder, alice, had anotebook.
She was a lawyer, so she didn'tuse Excel, so she kept a
notebook of her investment.
So every so often she'd bereconciling it.
But what you find is in thosefamily offices.
(23:25):
And the reason you have thisproblem with maintaining
intergenerational wealth is you,not everyone is great at using
Excel, right?
And then, even if you are goodat using Excel, gathering that
data when you don't have dataautomation is really cumbersome.
It's prone to errors, andoftentimes, if you're putting an
(23:46):
Excel spreadsheet togetherevery couple months, that
information is a few monthsoutdated, right?
So you're not making real-timedecisions.
And so I do think everyoneshould be proficient in Excel,
and they should be proficient inExcel and they should be
proficient in finance, but thereality is they're just not, and
so what ends up happening isthe ones that are proficient in
those things move so muchfurther ahead and it leaves
(24:08):
behind people that don't havethat skillset, and those are the
people we want to be able touse a tool like ours and
actually be able to catch up andspend very little time doing
that.
Sam Maule (24:19):
Yeah, another component of this I was just
thinking about.
I was thinking about MackenzieScott, so Jeff Bezos, ex-wife
who's given away thephilanthropy side of wealth,
which is a big part of you know,folks with a lot of money and
what all goes into tracking thatright and that component of it.
That has to be a significantpart too, doesn't?
Simran Kang (24:41):
it.
Yeah, we actually have a wholecomponent of managing
foundations.
Sam Maule (24:44):
Thank God I was going out on a limb everybody.
That was me just tossing oneover the fence hoping that was
you.
Simran Kang (24:49):
No, because like some families, like they will
have, like some of the likeiconic American families we talk
about, those are families I'veworked with and they are
families that have put all theirmoney into a foundation, or
most of it in a foundation, andthen the family is actually just
stewarding a foundation.
So when they think about theirwealth, it's like they feel the
(25:12):
sense of ownership over thefoundation, and foundations have
specific rules and mandates ofhow often are you spending that
money, how much liquidity do youhave?
You're still investing it beforeyou're deploying it and giving
it away, so you're growing itand so there's a whole method to
doing that.
And even in smaller families,what you'll find is and these
(25:34):
were some of the families wewere interviewing as we were
building the product is, youknow, maybe the family
collectively, as a few siblings,they're worth like 10, 15
million and each of them iswriting two $300 checks to
different foundations and doingdonations.
But if you aggregate it all,you're like you're actually
donating 10 or $20,000 a year.
Maybe if you did, you couldgive one big give that can have
(25:58):
a larger impact.
So, thinking about your wealthand the power that it has and
the impacts that it can make.
It's not just about growing itand being richer, it's also
about giving it away, and so thedefinition of wealth is
different for everybody, and howthey want to manage it is
different for each person too.
Sam Maule (26:17):
I just want to hear the baby make noise again,
because I just made my day whenthe baby could, so I'm being,
I'm being quiet, my, so the babywill say something you want the
baby again.
Maia Bittner (26:28):
We definitely got to work that into the podcast.
She's, she's sleeping, oh, butshe's oh grunts and makes those
funny newborn sleeping noisesall the time.
Sam Maule (26:40):
I absolutely love that.
Well, Simran, thank you.
It's amazing, when we've had ahistory lesson, that we actually
got right.
We've actually identified amassive market which, again, I
think most of our listeners hadno clue.
There's 6,000 to 7, thousandfamily offices in the US, so
where can the listeners learnmore about one?
(27:01):
Reach out to you, but then alsolearn about the company.
What's the best place?
Simran Kang (27:06):
Our website, myfotech, is the best place to
go.
You can also find us onLinkedIn.
Our entire team is prettyactive on there.
Our entire team is prettyactive on there.
And then if you do have cohorts, like Maia, the one that you're
in we have like a Michael Lightversion for customers like that
.
So if they want to beta test itor use it, happy to share that
(27:27):
with them.
Yeah, we're really excited tojust give people access to these
tools.
Sam Maule (27:33):
Fantastic.
All right, hey, mackenzie Scott, there you go.
We'll make sure we'll passalong the link to you.
Everybody thanks for listeningthis week.
As always, please go out andgive us a review.
It really helps draw inlisteners.
You want to reach out to mewith ideas for a show?
Linkedin always is great, orTwitter, Maia, how about you?
Maia Bittner (27:50):
Hey, twitter is the best place to find me.
I'm at Maia B If you ever DM meabout family offices, tech
opportunities or what you aremost proud of having built in
Excel.
Sam Maule (28:01):
Amen, Thank you everybody.
Thanks for listening.
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