Ever wondered what it's like to receive an unexpected haul of shoes just by tweeting about sore feet? Tune in as we learn about the unexpected windfalls for a finfluencer. With us is Sheel Mohnot, co-founder of Better Tomorrow Ventures, who takes us through his thrilling journey in the fintech landscape. Get an insider's look at how he teamed up with Jake Gibson of NerdWallet fame to create a venture capital firm aimed at fostering early-stage fintech innovations.
Sheel dives into the gritty details of early-stage investing and fundraising, offering a candid look at the fine line between "fake it till you make it" and fraud, highlighted by the FTX and SBF saga. We discuss the obstacles Sheel faced while raising their initial funds and how the COVID-19 pandemic played a pivotal role in their journey. The episode is a masterclass in strategic decision-making, including why Better Tomorrow Ventures chose to limit their fund size to stay sharp and effective, and the tough but necessary act of turning down investors.
In the latter part of our chat, we explore the fascinating world of neobanks, SaaS, and consumer fintech, uncovering both the opportunities and challenges in these sectors. We touch on the immense potential within niche markets and the crowded space of consumer fintech, stressing the importance of targeting underserved communities. The episode wraps up with a futuristic glimpse into wearable tech, where Shiel shares his thoughts on smart glasses' practicality and privacy issues. It's an episode packed with insights, humor, and forward-thinking perspectives that you won't want to miss.
Hosts: Sam Maule & Maia Bittner
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sam Maule (00:00):
Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of
Artificially Intelligent.
I'm your perpetual intern, SamMau le, one of your co-hosts.
Maia Bittner (00:14):
And I'm Maia Bittner, your other co-host.
You know, S sam, I just openedmy front door and checked my
packages and I got to tell you Ifeel like I've finally made it.
I got a free sparkling watersample today.
Sheel Mohnot (00:34):
Ooh, uh-huh.
Sam Maule (00:35):
What list did you get on?
Maia Bittner (00:37):
I know it was like totally unprompted, no memo
free.
Six-pack variety pack ofsparkling water that's.
Sam Maule (00:46):
That's how you know you're living large and becoming
a celebrity in this space,which it's just the worst way
ever.
Yeah, this is my worst segueever to get our guest on because
we're talking about.
I love doing this mic, so itmakes me laugh.
Sheel Mohnot (01:01):
I'm talking about one of the og we're talking
about a man who cannot keep hisshirt on on Twitter.
Sam Maule (01:06):
It's embarrassing A man who loves tacos as much as I
do.
I'm great.
I'm just thinking about thingsthat I've gotten for free in the
mail.
And it's like it's, it's notnot that much stuff, although
once I tweeted that my feet hurtand I got four different pairs
(01:30):
of shoes in the mail wow, whichwas pretty awesome it's a lot of
shoes.
I wore those for a long time, um, but what else I?
I uh tweeted about robin hood.
A lot of people think that Iget paid for these things.
Like I don't get paid foranything.
I tweeted that I am excitedabout Robinhood's new 3%
(01:54):
cashback card and some otherstuff about Robinhood.
So the CEO reached out to meand was like, hey, we'd like to
send you something.
And I was like, oh, I'm goingto get something awesome.
And then I got it was stickersand a hat that says market cap
and a key chain stickers.
(02:14):
Man, right and you're like.
Maia Bittner (02:19):
By the way, I'm Sheel M Shilmanot.
I have like 100,000 followerson Twitter.
I am the guy in fintech.
I literally just raved aboutyour newly launched consumer
card and drove like tons of highquality traffic.
Thank you for the key chain.
Sheel Mohnot (02:36):
Literally a key chain.
Maia Bittner (02:38):
Like I know, fintech customer acquisition
costs.
Like that's a valuable tweet.
Yeah Well for those that don'tknow we're talking about S
shield.
Sam Maule (02:47):
Um, he's one of the gps at better tomorrow ventures.
Um.
Did it with his co-founder,jake gibson and I love jake too.
Founder of nerd wallet.
God, who doesn't love nerdwallet?
I love nerd wallet.
Maia, you love nerd wallet lovenerd wallet -should love J jake
, but you and I do, and that'swhat matters.
Sheel Mohnot (03:03):
You know I love I learned so much from there.
Sam Maule (03:07):
Yeah, he's great when did you first meet jake?
I don't even know that yeah,yeah.
Sheel Mohnot (03:13):
So I met jake in 2016.
I was running a different fund500 fintech with an accelerator
and um was a big fan of nerdwallet, like you two and um they
actually they had an office inthe same building as our office,
so it just like was top of mindall the time because I could
see them in the elevator.
And then a friend of a friendor a friend was like, hey, I
(03:37):
know Jake, one of theco-founders, and I said, oh, put
me in touch.
And then he got in touch, or wegot in touch.
He came in to mentorAccelerator, ended up investing
in a bunch of companies inAccelerator, and then later on
we had an event it was calledPre-Money this big conference
(04:01):
for venture capitalists and Jakesent me a note saying, hey, any
way I can get a free ticket.
And I was like, hmm, I know away you can get a free ticket.
Maia Bittner (04:04):
And I was like Hmm , I, I know a way you can get a
free ticket.
Sheel Mohnot (04:07):
You can become an EIR with me and you'll get a
free ticket.
See, everyone's just lookingfor free shit, just looking for
free shit, like all of us.
Maia Bittner (04:18):
Like all of us, a lot of stickers, a lot of
stickers, a lot of free stuff,sparkling water sparkling water.
Sheel Mohnot (04:30):
Yeah, here we are, years later.
You know that free ticket ledto us working together and then
deepening our relationship, sortof end of 2019, when we started
btv, that's fantastic.
Maia Bittner (04:35):
I think of you as having just started better
tomorrow, but I think I know thepandemic time warp.
It was actually totally five,four or five years ago.
Sheel Mohnot (04:46):
Yeah, four and a half years ago.
Yeah, and I totally agree itfeels brand new.
But we're actually, you know,we're on fun two.
We'll probably have fun threelater this year, so it still
feels new, but I guess it's sortof old.
And now Sam's calling me an OG,which means that I'm old.
(05:07):
You got gray on the beard.
Sam Maule (05:09):
You're like me.
I got a lot of gray.
Maia Bittner (05:11):
We got a lot of gray.
And do you want to give us the30 second pitch for Better
Tomorrow?
What kinds of stuff do youinvest in?
What checks?
Sheel Mohnot (05:18):
do you?
Maia Bittner (05:18):
write what stage.
Sheel Mohnot (05:20):
Totally so.
We are pre-seed and seedinvestors in FinTech.
So everything we invest in isFinTech or FinTech adjacent.
(05:41):
And when I say FinTech adjacent, that could be vertical SaaS
that's going to have a bigFinTech component, or B2B
marketplaces that are, which isa $150 million fund.
We also have a follow-onvehicle that's under $75 million
and our check sizes rangebetween a half million at the
lower end and up to about $4million at the high end for a
first check.
And and the half million dollarchecks are usually pre seed
(06:03):
investments that we do out of anaccelerator called the mint,
where companies come here, workout of our office, work super
closely with us, and we invest ahalf million, as I said, and
then you know, larger checkstend to be a little bit further
along into our sort of seedbucket.
Sam Maule (06:23):
Yeah, it's something I don't know, so I'm curious.
You know, when you're instartup life, I'm back in
startup life everybody if youdidn't know it, congratulations.
So yeah, I'm at the Series Bcompany, so when you're in
startup life it's it's almostlike being a politician right.
It's all about oh God, what'sthe raise I got?
I got to do a raise.
What's the next raise?
(06:43):
What is it?
I got to get to do that, wellwhat's it like?
Raising a fund.
I mean, that's gotta be just aspainful, isn't it?
Sheel Mohnot (06:51):
Yeah.
So I've done it three times now.
First time was really painful,second time was a little less
painful and the third time wejust got really lucky on timing.
So I can tell you a little bitabout each of them.
So the first one it was myfirst fund 500 FinTech ended up
being $15 million.
(07:14):
Originally I was masqueradingas having a fund and I was
actually investing my owncapital and did a bunch of
investments out of my owncapital, sort of masqueraded as
500 fintech.
And I did that not because Iwanted to or because I had so
much money, but because I had tobecause no one would give me
(07:36):
money and so I faked.
Maia Bittner (07:41):
What year was this ?
Sheel Mohnot (07:42):
Because I feel like yeah, yeah, yeah, this was
started investing in January2016.
Cool, Okay, so we startedinvesting in January 2016.
And every investment I madeuntil May 2017 was out of my own
pocket and it was a 0% interestloan to the fund yeah.
Sam Maule (08:07):
So your wife really loves you.
I'm just gonna go ahead and saythat she really loves you yeah,
so it was.
Sheel Mohnot (08:15):
It was a lot, it was, and it was a significant
part of my net worth, to befrank, um, and but I knew that I
was gonna do whatever I had todo to have a fund and that was
part of it and eventually, youknow, we just record an episode
on ftx and sbf and one of thethings I was saying is I really
(08:38):
think there's some like thisfake it till you make it right
is is on a continuum with fraud.
Sam Maule (08:44):
Yeah.
Maia Bittner (08:45):
Do you?
Sam Maule (08:46):
know what I mean and, like you, invest in your own
money.
Maia Bittner (08:49):
like it's not like nobody can follow.
It's like that's awesome, Likeit's such like you know, like
obviously not fraud.
It's like incredible and youhad to do what you had to do to
make it work and like now you'rethe shamanaut.
You know SPF right, okay, likemisappropriated you know, like I
(09:13):
think it exists on a continuumand, like you, kind of hustle to
make it like tech.
It's like this is kind of one ofthe biggest games in the world.
It's very competitive, likepeople are very ambitious or
trying and like you know you gotto give it all, you got well
you know what I find fascinating, and I'm you know we died
laughing recording that lastepisode.
Sam Maule (09:30):
When we're talking about this, because there's this
is part of a persona right whenyou look at svf.
Right, it's a persona of wellman I mean.
Sheel Mohnot (09:38):
There's a million different ways you could take
that, but but you've got thesame thing right.
Sam Maule (09:43):
I mean, if there was like a the same thing medium
you're always laughing, you'realways happy.
You're doing, you're doingmetal verse, freaking wedding
nonsense.
Maia Bittner (09:57):
That's who you are , but I know behind the scenes
sbf has with the playing videogames games during the pitch.
You know it's like that's thelore she'll get married at Taco.
Sheel Mohnot (10:08):
Bell it's true.
Maia Bittner (10:10):
I'm not saying the word because I don't know how
to pronounce it, but is ithutzpah?
What's the word?
Sam Maule (10:17):
hutzpah, hutzpah, yeah, yeah yeah, okay.
Sheel Mohnot (10:27):
So back to raising the funds.
So fund one, so fund zero.
We call it 500 fintech.
It was really hard.
Then fund fund um, btv one, um.
So I had jake as a partner andit was also took a while.
So the first like, we raisedmillion.
The first 20 were fairly easyto raise.
(10:48):
Like I had raised 15 millionbefore.
Most of those folks are almostall those folks came back in and
we had some other friends, um,we had a little bit of a track
record.
People liked us, people knew us, um, so the first 20 was easy.
And then it was tough, um, itwas also the beginning of the
pandemic we were hoping to.
We did a first close december2019 and we had to do that close
(11:12):
because we had committed toleading our first deal, which
was unit.
We had committed to it in likeaugust or september and we were
like we promise we have themoney or we'll come up with the
money.
And so they waited a few monthsand we wired them the money for
their seed round and that first20 million that we raised was
(11:37):
enough to do that.
And then we were like, okay,we're going to do another close
March 30th 2020.
We were like, okay, we're goingto do another close March 30th
2020.
And obviously March 2020 did notpan out as we expected.
We did our first ever, actuallyfirst and only to date ever
(11:59):
trip that Jake and I went on forfundraising was like the first
or second week of March.
We went out to the East Coastand everything was normal when
we went out, and then, like twodays after we got there, like
the NBA shut down, likeeverything shut down, all of
these meetings we had planned,everyone was just canceling, and
(12:19):
so we ended up being in NewYork for a few days doing
meetings in Zoom.
Maia Bittner (12:24):
Anyway, I think we were sharing a hotel room at
like a courtyard Marriott.
Sheel Mohnot (12:36):
Is this a fund that was lucky with timing, or
is that a different fund?
No, that's not the fund thatwas lucky with time, although
although, to be honest, likelook so.
That was really tough in Marchand we kind of paused
fundraising for a couple ofmonths figuring the world had to
figure itself out.
But then, you know, the moneyprinter started going.
Maia Bittner (12:49):
The economy was booming that summer.
Everything was-.
Sheel Mohnot (12:51):
Yeah, interest rates were zero.
So actually, like, a bunch offolks that had told us no
earlier came back and said, hey,actually we're interested in
you guys.
So then we had raised our money.
We actually had only planned toraise 60 and we raised 75 by
that August.
So it was easier to raise thanthe 500 FinTech, but still it
(13:11):
wasn't easy.
And then the last fundraise, wegot super lucky on timing.
It was December of 2021 and itwas peak market.
Our fund was looking great,fintech was looking great.
Fintech was really hot yeah,fintech was really hot.
So everything conspired to belike, okay, people could not
(13:41):
give us.
It felt like people werethrowing money at us.
They would commit an amount andthen increase their commitment
before we closed and we had toturn people away.
We had to cut their commitments.
It was super interestingbecause I think never in my life
actually not, I think I knowfor sure Never in my life before
then had somebody been givingme money and I said, no, I can't
(14:02):
take your money.
Maia Bittner (14:02):
Well, I actually, yeah, tell me why you did that
right?
I've heard like is it becauseyou didn't think you could
deploy it?
Like your fund strategy didn'tmake sense?
Sheel Mohnot (14:12):
Yeah, there's this saying your fund size is your
strategy, and it's true, right,I think the larger your fund
goes, the more you your fundgoes, the more you you know.
We feel like 150 is a greatsize for our, our team, um, but
(14:33):
beyond that it becomes like youend up getting pushed and doing
things you don't want to do.
You have to own more of acompany or or you know we
already feel like we have to owna lot of our company at a 150,
but um you, you start to writelarger checks and this is not
what we enjoy.
We love helping companies atthe earliest stages precedence
seed, and so growing more didn'treally make sense, and we are
not in this business to get richoff management fees.
(14:56):
When Jake and I went into thisbusiness together, one of the
core principles was we don'tcare about management fees.
Together, like, one of the coreprinciples was we don't care
about management fees, so we weactually pay ourselves less than
um than you would expect from afund of our size, because we
want to reinvest into the fundand we only want to make money
if our companies do well and wewant to make money through carry
(15:18):
and raising a larger fund isactually kind of at odds with
that.
Right.
Where do you think that?
Sam Maule (15:24):
comes from that, that commitment to you know pre-seed
and seed rounds, and yeah, Kindof make your next billion.
Sheel Mohnot (15:33):
I think it's just more fun.
I think like we could easily.
We would be richer if we wentdown a different path, but it
wouldn't be as fulfilling.
I think there's nothing likebeing the first person to
believe in a founder and likethat stays with you.
Sam Maule (15:52):
That is a great quote .
Sheel Mohnot (15:55):
And it's like these, I tell you like right now
.
So I ran Accelerator 2016 to2018.
And those founders like now I'mrunning Accelerator now and
those founders you know that aresuccessful like anything I ask
them for, like they're flying infrom around the country to
mentor these companies Becausethey're like, hey, you gave me a
(16:17):
chance.
I want to pay it forward tothese guys and it's just a great
feeling and I love being in thesame room with people building
something, helping in any way Ican, just jumping on a
whiteboard when they have aproblem to solve, and that's
(16:39):
what I love doing.
The earlier you go, the moreyou are investing in people and
helping sort of people in adream, and the later you go, the
more you're investing in aspreadsheet and I'm more a
people in a dream kind ofinvestor.
Maia Bittner (16:58):
Have you ever invested in a founder where you
hated the idea?
Sheel Mohnot (17:03):
Yeah.
Sam Maule (17:07):
Multiple times.
Maia Bittner (17:08):
Multiple times.
Sheel Mohnot (17:10):
Yeah, putting a bet on a person.
I'll give you just the firstexample that came to mind.
I think it's a company you know, Maia, the company's, albert
albertcom, and they started outas a personal finance manager,
and this is in 2016.
It was one of the firstcompanies I invested in January
2016.
(17:31):
And there were a lot ofpersonal finance managers and
none of them really weresuccessful.
Mint had a decent outcome at thetime I think it was 170 million
or something like that and thena lot of other people said, hey
, we can do this better.
Plaid comes along, makes itsuper easy, and it's so easy
that everybody does it.
Everybody tries to build apersonal finance manager and
(17:54):
Yinon was a founder who wasdoing that.
But he really compelled me.
You know, I think I was likenot that sure I was into it.
He was based in LA.
He actually flew out to SanFrancisco and said, hey, why
don't we get breakfast?
I'll convince you, and he did.
He was just like you know.
I had the feeling that he wasgoing to do whatever it took to
(18:17):
make this company successful andin that case, it turned out to
be right, like it was totallythe right call.
He, you know, he expandedbeyond personal finance
management, kept on adding moreand more features.
Now you know it's a nine figurerevenue business and if I did
(18:40):
my math right in the hundreds ofmillions of revenue counting
zeros over here.
Yeah, um and um, and it's reallya testament to the founder,
like it's really.
It's that first business wasn'tthe right business but he kept
(19:01):
pivoting, micro pivoting his wayinto something that made sense.
And another.
Another great story about himactually is at the at the post
post pandemic sort of like 22interest rates go up, world
changes.
He's burning a ton of money Iwon't say how much, but like a
(19:23):
lot of money and he just getsthe memo quicker than anyone
turns the business around andhe's like hey, listen, I'm not
going to raise any more money,this is it.
I don't want to have to raisemoney, I'm going to get cashflow
positive.
And I literally laughed on thephone.
I was like, dude, you'reburning X millions of dollars
(19:51):
per month.
And he did it.
He made it happen.
I think within six months ofthat conversation he was
cashflow positive.
Now he's got tons of EBITDA andso it was really a founder bet.
But I didn't like the businesshe originally presented and that
continues to be the case today.
It happens from time to timeand because of those early
examples I have with him and afew other companies, I'm willing
(20:11):
to make those bets, but youhave to make those bets at the
earliest stages.
So you have to make that bet atpre-seed accelerator stage,
because the longer things go on,the more chance, the more set
you are in the business thatyou're building.
So at pre-seed I'm willing toinvest in a founder in a
(20:33):
business that I might hate mighthate.
Sam Maule (20:37):
So I went on Twitter about an hour before we did this
and just went ahead and said ifyou've got a question for Shiel
, ask me and I'll make sure I'llask him.
So I've got to do this now andI'm going to slaughter names.
So, everybody, when I say yourname, come on, just you know, be
(20:59):
nice to me.
So Sashi Belumkanda asked allright, you already said that you
invest in pre-seed and seedfintech.
What would you do outside offintech?
Sheel Mohnot (21:06):
For investments, any verticals you look at yeah.
Yeah, I think I really likeinvesting in vertical SaaS too.
I like thinking about theproblems that an SMB has in
trying to solve them.
Where we've invested for themost part has been at the
intersection of FinTech andvertical SaaS, and so, as an
(21:31):
example, companies like Unitthat sell a banking product into
vertical SaaS that's embeddedbanking.
We have a company called Salsathat sells embedded payroll and
then we have a company calledLayer that's embedded accounting
.
They're all sort of of asimilar thesis that these
vertical SaaS companies willbecome fintech companies by
(21:51):
plugging in these variousservices.
But I'd also like to invest inthose vertical SaaS companies
directly.
We've done a couple, but not asmany as I'd like, and I think
the reason is we have built abrand and reputation around
FinTech.
Maia Bittner (22:08):
I was going to say people don't send you their hot
vertical SaaS founders, theydon't think of you.
Yeah, you don't have thatreputation.
Sheel Mohnot (22:16):
Exactly, that's exactly it.
Maia Bittner (22:18):
You get all the best fintech deals.
Sheel Mohnot (22:21):
So, yeah, I think we have some ideas on how we can
build more of a brand invertical SaaS, but right now we
don't have it.
But that's sort of the space.
I would go into A couple ofthings there that the listener
might find interesting is thereare really vertical SaaS
companies being built in everycategory and like the nichiest
(22:42):
categories.
You'll see one moving companies, golf clubs, what else, like
lawn services, businesses andwhile I want to invest in these
categories, in vertical SaaS asa category, I do think some of
these are too small.
Some of these will lead to $200million business, $300 million,
(23:06):
$500 million business, which,for a $150 million fund,
unfortunately, an exit of thatsize doesn't move the needle for
me.
I'm still interested in thecategory, but it has to be one
where I think there's anopportunity to build a
billion-dollar-plus business.
Sam Maule (23:28):
All right, the next one.
This is for Maia and Sheel.
Sheel Mohnot (23:31):
This one comes from our friend Jesse.
Sam Maule (23:32):
Padel who doesn't know Jesse Talking about
Pittsburgh.
He said look, I'd like to knowboth Maia and Sheel's
perspective on consumer, fintechand non-bank financial
providers.
Sheel Mohnot (23:42):
Where is the growth and?
Sam Maule (23:43):
expansion going to come from?
Should there be more neobanks?
And Maia's smiling at me.
Sheel Mohnot (23:50):
Maia, you go first I could go first.
Maia Bittner (23:54):
So I'm excited about consumer fintech.
I think it is really hard tobuild a billion-dollar business
in consumer fintech.
Like Sheel was saying, it'slike you've got to build
something big and it's reallytricky to find the business
model that's going to make sensethere.
In terms of neobanks, I thinkthere could be more neobanks,
(24:24):
but you've got to be reallyprecise about the customer that
you're serving and why yoursolution is going to be better
than what's out there.
We've talked on this podcastbefore about chase.
Chase does a damn good job atcredit cards.
They do a great.
Their atms are incredibly cool.
Have you seen the like blinkylights and you can scan?
Sam Maule (24:41):
I like their ATMs.
Maia Bittner (24:42):
That's what I'm saying.
Their ATMs are great, likeChase does a great job at
consumer banking the middleclass and their app.
I don't know if you use theChase app.
It's great, it's easy to use,transfer your money, do your
thing.
It's got my mortgage and mycredit cards in one place.
So I think you know.
I'm not saying there's not roomfor more neobanks, but you got
(25:03):
to find the customer segmentthat is not, that is not getting
what they need from Chase todayor all the other like.
There's just a lot of options,really crowded space.
That's my answer.
Sheel Mohnot (25:12):
All right, shiel, you're up, okay.
I tend to agree with Maia.
So I would say I think thereare verticals where you can make
it work.
It's really hard.
I think a couple of reasons whyit might be more exciting than
it was in the past.
We didn't, during the likegolden age of neobanks sort of
(25:36):
like 2020 and 2021, when everysingle neobank was getting
funded you know the neobank Iused to joke that there would be
a neobank for pets and then Iliterally saw a neobank for pet
owners and you know, while allthose were getting funded, we
mostly stayed on the sidelines.
We did a couple.
(25:56):
We did a company called Relaythat's an SMB focused neobank.
It's doing very well, and thenwe did a company called Charlie
that is a neobank plus plus forseniors, and we felt like that
one was an underserved marketand a founder that we really
(26:18):
liked, but we stayed away fromthe bulk of them.
Now why?
I think now could be a bettertime than it was then.
If you find the right vertical,the right niche to go after is
one.
Actually, these companies won'tbe overfunded and part of the
(26:47):
problem was overfunding in thesector, not to say that a
neobank for pet owners is what Iwould invest in, but some sort
of consumer app that wasinteresting and innovative could
totally work, and not havingtoo much money is actually a
superpower.
I think the overfunding led tosort of not getting to product
(27:11):
market fit soon enough.
It led to long payback periods,stuff like that, and having
less money might mean a moreefficient business to start with
.
And then I actually thinkcustomer acquisition has gotten
a little bit better.
I think it isn't much talkedabout, but meta has made a lot
(27:34):
of strides with AI and some ofthose have been better ad
targeting, so you actually cando paid a little bit better In
consumer fintech.
I generally think, generallyspeaking, you have to start out
with paid marketing.
There are some businesses thathave some other way to do it,
(27:56):
but generally, paid is part ofit.
So you are, generally speaking,shoveling some money to
Facebook and Google, and thefact that they've gotten a
little bit better is a goodthing.
This is a personal question,this one's for me, because I'm
like I think I already know Maiamaya's position on this, because
you're talking about M meta andI've I've had issues with the
(28:18):
company in the past.
Just yeah, you know, let's befrank, but what they've done in
this partnership with R rayban,I'm beyond impressed, dude, I
feel like she'll, she'll wearingthem.
Maia Bittner (28:32):
Sheel and I are biggest fans.
Sam Maule (28:34):
Yeah, I'm impressed.
I didn't see that coming,really slick.
Sheel Mohnot (28:39):
It's a great product and I think it's it's
interesting Like I've had thesesince December now and I've
literally only seen a coupleother people.
I actually just I think I'veonly seen one other person
wearing them.
Maia Bittner (28:53):
There are all these AI products out there,
you're in San Francisco, right,I'm in San Francisco exactly.
They tell you how good it is.
Sam Maule (29:01):
We have done this entire podcast.
We've been talking for 29minutes and I just now figured
out you're wearing them.
They actually look.
That's the confidence.
Sheel Mohnot (29:09):
They're just my everyday glasses Shooting video,
video, video, audio.
Um, video, photo audio are themost useful things, but actually
I'm starting to use the aithing more.
Um, and it's just like you know, meta, ai, um, whatever they
use in these glasses, it feelsyou know reasonably good um, as
(29:32):
goodGPT, but the answers arepretty short.
So, better, yeah, nice, and soI really like it.
And, sam, you should get them.
Anybody who wears glassesalready it feels like if you
wear glasses and you liketechnology, you're okay trying a
(29:53):
V2 product.
It's a pretty slick V2 product.
So, yeah, I'm a big fan.
And in general, meta, I thinkyou know I think so, a like
caveat, my wife works there, butB and I'm a stockholder.
But yeah, I think the year ofefficiency was really good for
(30:15):
them and they did have too manypeople, but they're working on
really cool stuff.
They're investing a lot in AI.
They're building products likethis that are great, like this
(30:37):
that are great and um, I thinkzuck said he thinks the future
of the mobile phone might beglasses like these and, um, the
future laptop might be your vrgoggles, like the meta quest or
apple vision pro I made mayaconvince me.
Sam Maule (30:50):
I've been following Maia on Twitter and her
interactions using it with herkids.
It just makes all the sense inthe world to me.
Maia Bittner (30:57):
It's really cool for kids.
Sheel, have you tried the SoulReader?
Sheel Mohnot (31:03):
I haven't.
People talk about it and seemto love it To read books right.
Maia Bittner (31:09):
Yeah, to read books.
I just bought one.
Don't have it yet.
Sheel Mohnot (31:14):
I know it's super hype Like there's like a waiting
list to get one or something.
Maia Bittner (31:17):
Yeah, well, I mean , anybody can have a waiting
list.
You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, butit is hype.
I'm excited.
I mean, a Kindle is prettylight and easy to hold, but
people say it's a great readingexperience.
I just I have to say I reallydidn't expect that glasses would
be like the new human computerinterface standard.
Sheel Mohnot (31:41):
Yeah, I feel now, for the first time, fortunate
for my poor eyesight.
Sam Maule (31:47):
Yeah, well, that that and again.
I mean, you know, as a formerGoogler, remember when Google
Glass came out?
Yeah, I had that, yeah, so it'sthe whole.
You know there'll be a glasshole and that whole effect.
And, like I said, we've beentalking for 30 minutes and until
you turned your head I didn'trealize you were wearing them.
You know, Until I saw theRay-Bans logo, I was like holy
cow.
Sheel Mohnot (32:06):
I actually think Like so I think the world has
changed in the.
What has it been?
It's been 12 years since GoogleGlass launched and you know
there were the people kicked outof the restaurant in San
Francisco for wearing it orwhatever back then.
But the world has changed.
(32:26):
Like, everybody has smartphones, everybody's taking photos all
the time.
Everybody has smartphones.
Everybody's taking photos allthe time.
I don't think the perception ofbeing photographed is the same
as it was 12 years ago, so theprivacy issues, I think, are
much less than they were then.
(32:47):
I do have people like, wheneverI post something from it, like I
posted something today.
I was in New Orleans yesterdayat Jazz Fest and I posted a
short video of, like, walkingdown the street Cause it's
something where, like, I didn'twant to have my phone out, I
just want to enjoy the moment,but pressing a button and
recording was really fun.
And somebody is like, oh well,did you get?
Did you get sign off from allthose people that you took video
from from your glasses?
It's like no, but like there'sa bunch of people out there with
(33:09):
phones out and they didn'teither.
And, by the way, if you're in aparade, a TV station is taking
a video and they're not like.
Every time I post something,somebody is like talking about
the privacy concerns, but itdoesn't make any sense to me
whatsoever.
That's not a rule we have inthis country.
Maia Bittner (33:26):
It also you're allowed to take people on the
streets Blinking light on it.
Sheel Mohnot (33:29):
It has a blinking light, true, yeah, exactly, yeah
, it kind of shows you.
I'm taking a video right now.
You can see the light.
Maia Bittner (33:37):
It looks electronic, it looks like you're
doing something, even if youdidn't know, that meant you were
taking a video.
I feel like it's more in yourface than if somebody's like oh,
it looks like they're textingon their phone and they're
actually recording totally,totally.
Sam Maule (33:49):
This is a form factor .
Makes sense to me.
You know the iphone or theandroid order.
They have this brick.
It's been around now forforever and a day.
You know, we're almost comingup on 20 years and what is the
next thing?
And I gotta say I was watchingone in miami over the weekend
and at the start, and all thepeople with their phones out
recording, I thought, man, itjust makes much more sense for
(34:10):
the glasses you know to be inthe moment to do both to record
and all that, but to be in themoment and actually not looking
through.
Sheel Mohnot (34:18):
You know this handheld device that was the
first time where I went uh-oh, Ithink I'm starting to see maybe
a paradigm shift, you know itis funny.
You go to a concert and peoplelike everybody has their phones
out and is basically looking atthe concert through their phone.
It's just like kind of weird.
Um, I do, I don't, you know.
I haven't figured out whatpeople who don't wear glasses
(34:41):
already are going to do, though,like this makes sense if you
already wear glasses.
If you don't, are you going tostart wearing glasses with clear
, clear lenses?
Um, maybe I?
I don't.
Sam Maule (34:53):
Yeah, it'll be curious to see how the adoption
goes for it.
Maia Bittner (34:57):
So, Shiel, you're recording this podcast for us,
and I noticed that you'rewearing your glasses and your
AirPods.
I'm curious if you thoughtabout just having the sound
through your glasses and if youever do that?
Sheel Mohnot (35:11):
yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, great question.
So I um, I don't use the audiofrom my glasses for my laptop
it's not, I use it on my phone.
Maia Bittner (35:23):
Okay, well, and I could use.
Sheel Mohnot (35:25):
I could do it, but the handoff is not, so I only
use the glasses.
Audio for my phone Okay, and Ithink the audio quality is
probably a little bit better onthe AirPods, but it's pretty
good on the glasses.
Like when I'm talking to peopleon the phone, most of the time
(35:47):
I'm using my glasses.
And like when I'm walking orbiking around the city, I
usually use my glasses.
Okay, I I'm walking or bikingaround the city, I usually use
my glasses.
Maia Bittner (35:54):
Okay, I was just curious, right, if it was your
all-day Zoom meeting setup ornot.
That makes sense.
Sam Maule (36:03):
Okay, Sam, you can go .
You got another one for him.
Maia Bittner (36:05):
Yeah, back to you.
Sam Maule (36:07):
I should have done this whole thing on this man
dude.
I really didn't realize.
Rachel, you edit all this out.
Maia Bittner (36:14):
I really have no clue.
And I don't wear glasses and Ilove the metal glasses.
Sam Maule (36:21):
Yeah, I know you do.
I mean.
Sheel Mohnot (36:23):
I did?
Sam Maule (36:23):
I got laser eyes.
Sheel Mohnot (36:25):
All right, one last question, so do you wear
the sunglasses or do you weartransition?
What do you do?
Maia Bittner (36:29):
So I got the transition ones.
Sunglasses, or do you weartransition, what do you?
So I got the transition ones.
I kind of regret it, um,because transitions are, they're
like.
They're just, I feel likethey're kind of lame.
They don't get like as dark asI want.
They're not as clear like it'stoo slow yeah, I don't do that.
Sam Maule (36:44):
Yeah, I talk to.
I've worn glasses my whole lifeand I put on I put on well, I
need my phone.
I put on prescription glasses,sunglasses, ray-bans, of all
things.
When I go out, I just switchthem around.
Maia Bittner (36:56):
I'm thinking so the medical glasses.
I think they're like sold outand there's a wait list, so I
was thinking about selling mineon eBay or something and buying
two of them clear ones andsunglass ones because the
transitions bother me that much.
Or maybe even just sunglassones, because the transitions
bother me that much, I but, ormaybe even just sunglass ones,
um, I'm not sure.
(37:16):
the thing is, I love talking onthe phone with them because I
feel like I can hear everythingaround me, they're just the best
way to do phone calls and, likesometimes, I'm just in my house
and I don't want to be wearingsunglasses in my house to take a
phone call.
Sam Maule (37:30):
Yeah, or any of the big.
Sheel Mohnot (37:35):
No, I think I think it's.
It's just with with Ray-Ban, Ithink.
I think actually what happenedwas Ray-Ban hired people.
So there were these Bose Bosesunglasseslass, sunglasses with
(37:55):
audio and then I remember those,yeah, yeah they didn't really
take off, but if I think, rayban hired some people from that
team yeah and so they werebuilding something already, and
then they teamed up with meta todo the smart stuff.
There, you, go.
Sam Maule (38:11):
Okay, that makes sense.
Okay, sorry, rachel, that wasjust selfish because I had to
know.
Okay, last question this iscoming from andrew morris, um,
and this is actually a prettyinteresting question.
So, shiel, what's the bestthing you've ever said on stage
at industry event and what's theworst thing you've ever said on
stage?
Sheel Mohnot (38:30):
that is a great question best thing you've said
on stage worst thing you've saidon stage oh man, I I can think
of the worst thing I've said onstage.
Probably I think I was, um, Iwas skeptical that this is
(38:51):
probably 2016 or somethingaround then and I think I
probably I shared my skepticismaround wealth front being a big
business and I think you know Iwas just like they make a small
margin.
You know it's kind of race tothe bottom on fees, costs a lot
(39:14):
to acquire customers and it'stough, and I think all those
things are true, but they'vedone better than I expected.
You know they had that whatever$1.4 billion acquisition that
didn't end up going through, butI think now they're doing
better.
So, you know, worst thing I didwas was doubt Wealthfront.
(39:37):
Best thing I've said, I don'tknow, I think.
I think I think around that sametime I probably said, probably
had some like negative thoughtson lending that most of these
lenders should not be, are notventure businesses, and the
reason that I believe that is,as venture capitalists, we
(40:00):
invest in growth and it's easyto grow giving out money and
it's hard to get that money backsometimes, or or sometimes an
event happens where it's hard,where things change, and so I
kind of said, oh no, guys,here's, here's a downside of
(40:20):
these glasses.
I just touched the side of myglasses and now can you hear
what?
Can you hear what's happening?
And it's playing your podcastartificially intelligent.
Sam Maule (40:37):
That's actually crazy .
Sheel Mohnot (40:38):
Okay, meta use case yeah, sorry, okay, so um
what I was saying?
Okay, lending, um.
So I think the smartest thing Isaid was you know, pure play,
lending is not a venture scalebusiness I love that.
Maia Bittner (40:49):
Both your best and worst were skepticisms of
businesses and their businessmodels.
That's.
Sam Maule (40:55):
That's what happens when you're an OG.
So, folks, we got, we got tohave to wrap.
We could do this for hours.
Sheel Mohnot (41:02):
Yeah, this is fun guys.
It is, you guys are funconversationalists.
Sam Maule (41:07):
What's the best place for folks to learn more about
you and learn more about theclub?
Sheel Mohnot (41:11):
Probably Twitter at pit.
They see p-i-t-d-e-s-i I.
I actually did a.
Somebody asked me to review theglasses, so I like recorded
myself walking around for sixminutes with them so you can
find that on there, um, but yeah, and from there you can find my
website and other stuff too.
I'm 100 per se.
Sam Maule (41:31):
Yeah, I will say if you really want to have a lot of
fun, follow MaiaB on Twitter.
File show on Twitter.
I do both.
I think it's funny as hell, butyou also learn a lot.
So there's my recommendationFor me LinkedIn or Twitter.
Just ping me If you have ideasfor a show let us know.
We'd love to hear them Alsogive us a review, five stars, of
course, anything else, go writeanother podcast.
Sheel Mohnot (41:53):
Thanks for listening everybody.
We love having you here.
Send me an email Good review,bad review - Screw, you Don't do
it.
Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of
Artificially Intelligent.
I'm your perpetual intern, SamMau le, one of your co-hosts.
Maia Bittner (00:14):
And I'm Maia Bittner, your other co-host.
You know, S sam, I just openedmy front door and checked my
packages and I got to tell you Ifeel like I've finally made it.
I got a free sparkling watersample today.
Sheel Mohnot (00:34):
Ooh, uh-huh.
Sam Maule (00:35):
What list did you get on?
Maia Bittner (00:37):
I know it was like totally unprompted, no memo
free.
Six-pack variety pack ofsparkling water that's.
Sam Maule (00:46):
That's how you know you're living large and becoming
a celebrity in this space,which it's just the worst way
ever.
Yeah, this is my worst segueever to get our guest on because
we're talking about.
I love doing this mic, so itmakes me laugh.
Sheel Mohnot (01:01):
I'm talking about one of the og we're talking
about a man who cannot keep hisshirt on on Twitter.
Sam Maule (01:06):
It's embarrassing A man who loves tacos as much as I
do.
I'm great.
I'm just thinking about thingsthat I've gotten for free in the
mail.
And it's like it's, it's notnot that much stuff, although
once I tweeted that my feet hurtand I got four different pairs
(01:30):
of shoes in the mail wow, whichwas pretty awesome it's a lot of
shoes.
I wore those for a long time, um, but what else I?
I uh tweeted about robin hood.
A lot of people think that Iget paid for these things.
Like I don't get paid foranything.
I tweeted that I am excitedabout Robinhood's new 3%
(01:54):
cashback card and some otherstuff about Robinhood.
So the CEO reached out to meand was like, hey, we'd like to
send you something.
And I was like, oh, I'm goingto get something awesome.
And then I got it was stickersand a hat that says market cap
and a key chain stickers.
(02:14):
Man, right and you're like.
Maia Bittner (02:19):
By the way, I'm Sheel M Shilmanot.
I have like 100,000 followerson Twitter.
I am the guy in fintech.
I literally just raved aboutyour newly launched consumer
card and drove like tons of highquality traffic.
Thank you for the key chain.
Sheel Mohnot (02:36):
Literally a key chain.
Maia Bittner (02:38):
Like I know, fintech customer acquisition
costs.
Like that's a valuable tweet.
Yeah Well for those that don'tknow we're talking about S
shield.
Sam Maule (02:47):
Um, he's one of the gps at better tomorrow ventures.
Um.
Did it with his co-founder,jake gibson and I love jake too.
Founder of nerd wallet.
God, who doesn't love nerdwallet?
I love nerd wallet.
Maia, you love nerd wallet lovenerd wallet -should love J jake
, but you and I do, and that'swhat matters.
Sheel Mohnot (03:03):
You know I love I learned so much from there.
Sam Maule (03:07):
Yeah, he's great when did you first meet jake?
I don't even know that yeah,yeah.
Sheel Mohnot (03:13):
So I met jake in 2016.
I was running a different fund500 fintech with an accelerator
and um was a big fan of nerdwallet, like you two and um they
actually they had an office inthe same building as our office,
so it just like was top of mindall the time because I could
see them in the elevator.
And then a friend of a friendor a friend was like, hey, I
(03:37):
know Jake, one of theco-founders, and I said, oh, put
me in touch.
And then he got in touch, or wegot in touch.
He came in to mentorAccelerator, ended up investing
in a bunch of companies inAccelerator, and then later on
we had an event it was calledPre-Money this big conference
(04:01):
for venture capitalists and Jakesent me a note saying, hey, any
way I can get a free ticket.
And I was like, hmm, I know away you can get a free ticket.
Maia Bittner (04:04):
And I was like Hmm , I, I know a way you can get a
free ticket.
Sheel Mohnot (04:07):
You can become an EIR with me and you'll get a
free ticket.
See, everyone's just lookingfor free shit, just looking for
free shit, like all of us.
Maia Bittner (04:18):
Like all of us, a lot of stickers, a lot of
stickers, a lot of free stuff,sparkling water sparkling water.
Sheel Mohnot (04:30):
Yeah, here we are, years later.
You know that free ticket ledto us working together and then
deepening our relationship, sortof end of 2019, when we started
btv, that's fantastic.
Maia Bittner (04:35):
I think of you as having just started better
tomorrow, but I think I know thepandemic time warp.
It was actually totally five,four or five years ago.
Sheel Mohnot (04:46):
Yeah, four and a half years ago.
Yeah, and I totally agree itfeels brand new.
But we're actually, you know,we're on fun two.
We'll probably have fun threelater this year, so it still
feels new, but I guess it's sortof old.
And now Sam's calling me an OG,which means that I'm old.
(05:07):
You got gray on the beard.
Sam Maule (05:09):
You're like me.
I got a lot of gray.
Maia Bittner (05:11):
We got a lot of gray.
And do you want to give us the30 second pitch for Better
Tomorrow?
What kinds of stuff do youinvest in?
What checks?
Sheel Mohnot (05:18):
do you?
Maia Bittner (05:18):
write what stage.
Sheel Mohnot (05:20):
Totally so.
We are pre-seed and seedinvestors in FinTech.
So everything we invest in isFinTech or FinTech adjacent.
(05:41):
And when I say FinTech adjacent, that could be vertical SaaS
that's going to have a bigFinTech component, or B2B
marketplaces that are, which isa $150 million fund.
We also have a follow-onvehicle that's under $75 million
and our check sizes rangebetween a half million at the
lower end and up to about $4million at the high end for a
first check.
And and the half million dollarchecks are usually pre seed
(06:03):
investments that we do out of anaccelerator called the mint,
where companies come here, workout of our office, work super
closely with us, and we invest ahalf million, as I said, and
then you know, larger checkstend to be a little bit further
along into our sort of seedbucket.
Sam Maule (06:23):
Yeah, it's something I don't know, so I'm curious.
You know, when you're instartup life, I'm back in
startup life everybody if youdidn't know it, congratulations.
So yeah, I'm at the Series Bcompany, so when you're in
startup life it's it's almostlike being a politician right.
It's all about oh God, what'sthe raise I got?
I got to do a raise.
What's the next raise?
(06:43):
What is it?
I got to get to do that, wellwhat's it like?
Raising a fund.
I mean, that's gotta be just aspainful, isn't it?
Sheel Mohnot (06:51):
Yeah.
So I've done it three times now.
First time was really painful,second time was a little less
painful and the third time wejust got really lucky on timing.
So I can tell you a little bitabout each of them.
So the first one it was myfirst fund 500 FinTech ended up
being $15 million.
(07:14):
Originally I was masqueradingas having a fund and I was
actually investing my owncapital and did a bunch of
investments out of my owncapital, sort of masqueraded as
500 fintech.
And I did that not because Iwanted to or because I had so
much money, but because I had tobecause no one would give me
(07:36):
money and so I faked.
Maia Bittner (07:41):
What year was this ?
Sheel Mohnot (07:42):
Because I feel like yeah, yeah, yeah, this was
started investing in January2016.
Cool, Okay, so we startedinvesting in January 2016.
And every investment I madeuntil May 2017 was out of my own
pocket and it was a 0% interestloan to the fund yeah.
Sam Maule (08:07):
So your wife really loves you.
I'm just gonna go ahead and saythat she really loves you yeah,
so it was.
Sheel Mohnot (08:15):
It was a lot, it was, and it was a significant
part of my net worth, to befrank, um, and but I knew that I
was gonna do whatever I had todo to have a fund and that was
part of it and eventually, youknow, we just record an episode
on ftx and sbf and one of thethings I was saying is I really
(08:38):
think there's some like thisfake it till you make it right
is is on a continuum with fraud.
Sam Maule (08:44):
Yeah.
Maia Bittner (08:45):
Do you?
Sam Maule (08:46):
know what I mean and, like you, invest in your own
money.
Maia Bittner (08:49):
like it's not like nobody can follow.
It's like that's awesome, Likeit's such like you know, like
obviously not fraud.
It's like incredible and youhad to do what you had to do to
make it work and like now you'rethe shamanaut.
You know SPF right, okay, likemisappropriated you know, like I
(09:13):
think it exists on a continuumand, like you, kind of hustle to
make it like tech.
It's like this is kind of one ofthe biggest games in the world.
It's very competitive, likepeople are very ambitious or
trying and like you know you gotto give it all, you got well
you know what I find fascinating, and I'm you know we died
laughing recording that lastepisode.
Sam Maule (09:30):
When we're talking about this, because there's this
is part of a persona right whenyou look at svf.
Right, it's a persona of wellman I mean.
Sheel Mohnot (09:38):
There's a million different ways you could take
that, but but you've got thesame thing right.
Sam Maule (09:43):
I mean, if there was like a the same thing medium
you're always laughing, you'realways happy.
You're doing, you're doingmetal verse, freaking wedding
nonsense.
Maia Bittner (09:57):
That's who you are , but I know behind the scenes
sbf has with the playing videogames games during the pitch.
You know it's like that's thelore she'll get married at Taco.
Sheel Mohnot (10:08):
Bell it's true.
Maia Bittner (10:10):
I'm not saying the word because I don't know how
to pronounce it, but is ithutzpah?
What's the word?
Sam Maule (10:17):
hutzpah, hutzpah, yeah, yeah yeah, okay.
Sheel Mohnot (10:27):
So back to raising the funds.
So fund one, so fund zero.
We call it 500 fintech.
It was really hard.
Then fund fund um, btv one, um.
So I had jake as a partner andit was also took a while.
So the first like, we raisedmillion.
The first 20 were fairly easyto raise.
(10:48):
Like I had raised 15 millionbefore.
Most of those folks are almostall those folks came back in and
we had some other friends, um,we had a little bit of a track
record.
People liked us, people knew us, um, so the first 20 was easy.
And then it was tough, um, itwas also the beginning of the
pandemic we were hoping to.
We did a first close december2019 and we had to do that close
(11:12):
because we had committed toleading our first deal, which
was unit.
We had committed to it in likeaugust or september and we were
like we promise we have themoney or we'll come up with the
money.
And so they waited a few monthsand we wired them the money for
their seed round and that first20 million that we raised was
(11:37):
enough to do that.
And then we were like, okay,we're going to do another close
March 30th 2020.
We were like, okay, we're goingto do another close March 30th
2020.
And obviously March 2020 did notpan out as we expected.
We did our first ever, actuallyfirst and only to date ever
(11:59):
trip that Jake and I went on forfundraising was like the first
or second week of March.
We went out to the East Coastand everything was normal when
we went out, and then, like twodays after we got there, like
the NBA shut down, likeeverything shut down, all of
these meetings we had planned,everyone was just canceling, and
(12:19):
so we ended up being in NewYork for a few days doing
meetings in Zoom.
Maia Bittner (12:24):
Anyway, I think we were sharing a hotel room at
like a courtyard Marriott.
Sheel Mohnot (12:36):
Is this a fund that was lucky with timing, or
is that a different fund?
No, that's not the fund thatwas lucky with time, although
although, to be honest, likelook so.
That was really tough in Marchand we kind of paused
fundraising for a couple ofmonths figuring the world had to
figure itself out.
But then, you know, the moneyprinter started going.
Maia Bittner (12:49):
The economy was booming that summer.
Everything was-.
Sheel Mohnot (12:51):
Yeah, interest rates were zero.
So actually, like, a bunch offolks that had told us no
earlier came back and said, hey,actually we're interested in
you guys.
So then we had raised our money.
We actually had only planned toraise 60 and we raised 75 by
that August.
So it was easier to raise thanthe 500 FinTech, but still it
(13:11):
wasn't easy.
And then the last fundraise, wegot super lucky on timing.
It was December of 2021 and itwas peak market.
Our fund was looking great,fintech was looking great.
Fintech was really hot yeah,fintech was really hot.
So everything conspired to belike, okay, people could not
(13:41):
give us.
It felt like people werethrowing money at us.
They would commit an amount andthen increase their commitment
before we closed and we had toturn people away.
We had to cut their commitments.
It was super interestingbecause I think never in my life
actually not, I think I knowfor sure Never in my life before
then had somebody been givingme money and I said, no, I can't
(14:02):
take your money.
Maia Bittner (14:02):
Well, I actually, yeah, tell me why you did that
right?
I've heard like is it becauseyou didn't think you could
deploy it?
Like your fund strategy didn'tmake sense?
Sheel Mohnot (14:12):
Yeah, there's this saying your fund size is your
strategy, and it's true, right,I think the larger your fund
goes, the more you your fundgoes, the more you you know.
We feel like 150 is a greatsize for our, our team, um, but
(14:33):
beyond that it becomes like youend up getting pushed and doing
things you don't want to do.
You have to own more of acompany or or you know we
already feel like we have to owna lot of our company at a 150,
but um you, you start to writelarger checks and this is not
what we enjoy.
We love helping companies atthe earliest stages precedence
seed, and so growing more didn'treally make sense, and we are
not in this business to get richoff management fees.
(14:56):
When Jake and I went into thisbusiness together, one of the
core principles was we don'tcare about management fees.
Together, like, one of the coreprinciples was we don't care
about management fees, so we weactually pay ourselves less than
um than you would expect from afund of our size, because we
want to reinvest into the fundand we only want to make money
if our companies do well and wewant to make money through carry
(15:18):
and raising a larger fund isactually kind of at odds with
that.
Right.
Where do you think that?
Sam Maule (15:24):
comes from that, that commitment to you know pre-seed
and seed rounds, and yeah, Kindof make your next billion.
Sheel Mohnot (15:33):
I think it's just more fun.
I think like we could easily.
We would be richer if we wentdown a different path, but it
wouldn't be as fulfilling.
I think there's nothing likebeing the first person to
believe in a founder and likethat stays with you.
Sam Maule (15:52):
That is a great quote .
Sheel Mohnot (15:55):
And it's like these, I tell you like right now
.
So I ran Accelerator 2016 to2018.
And those founders like now I'mrunning Accelerator now and
those founders you know that aresuccessful like anything I ask
them for, like they're flying infrom around the country to
mentor these companies Becausethey're like, hey, you gave me a
(16:17):
chance.
I want to pay it forward tothese guys and it's just a great
feeling and I love being in thesame room with people building
something, helping in any way Ican, just jumping on a
whiteboard when they have aproblem to solve, and that's
(16:39):
what I love doing.
The earlier you go, the moreyou are investing in people and
helping sort of people in adream, and the later you go, the
more you're investing in aspreadsheet and I'm more a
people in a dream kind ofinvestor.
Maia Bittner (16:58):
Have you ever invested in a founder where you
hated the idea?
Sheel Mohnot (17:03):
Yeah.
Sam Maule (17:07):
Multiple times.
Maia Bittner (17:08):
Multiple times.
Sheel Mohnot (17:10):
Yeah, putting a bet on a person.
I'll give you just the firstexample that came to mind.
I think it's a company you know, Maia, the company's, albert
albertcom, and they started outas a personal finance manager,
and this is in 2016.
It was one of the firstcompanies I invested in January
2016.
(17:31):
And there were a lot ofpersonal finance managers and
none of them really weresuccessful.
Mint had a decent outcome at thetime I think it was 170 million
or something like that and thena lot of other people said, hey
, we can do this better.
Plaid comes along, makes itsuper easy, and it's so easy
that everybody does it.
Everybody tries to build apersonal finance manager and
(17:54):
Yinon was a founder who wasdoing that.
But he really compelled me.
You know, I think I was likenot that sure I was into it.
He was based in LA.
He actually flew out to SanFrancisco and said, hey, why
don't we get breakfast?
I'll convince you, and he did.
He was just like you know.
I had the feeling that he wasgoing to do whatever it took to
(18:17):
make this company successful andin that case, it turned out to
be right, like it was totallythe right call.
He, you know, he expandedbeyond personal finance
management, kept on adding moreand more features.
Now you know it's a nine figurerevenue business and if I did
(18:40):
my math right in the hundreds ofmillions of revenue counting
zeros over here.
Yeah, um and um, and it's reallya testament to the founder,
like it's really.
It's that first business wasn'tthe right business but he kept
(19:01):
pivoting, micro pivoting his wayinto something that made sense.
And another.
Another great story about himactually is at the at the post
post pandemic sort of like 22interest rates go up, world
changes.
He's burning a ton of money Iwon't say how much, but like a
(19:23):
lot of money and he just getsthe memo quicker than anyone
turns the business around andhe's like hey, listen, I'm not
going to raise any more money,this is it.
I don't want to have to raisemoney, I'm going to get cashflow
positive.
And I literally laughed on thephone.
I was like, dude, you'reburning X millions of dollars
(19:51):
per month.
And he did it.
He made it happen.
I think within six months ofthat conversation he was
cashflow positive.
Now he's got tons of EBITDA andso it was really a founder bet.
But I didn't like the businesshe originally presented and that
continues to be the case today.
It happens from time to timeand because of those early
examples I have with him and afew other companies, I'm willing
(20:11):
to make those bets, but youhave to make those bets at the
earliest stages.
So you have to make that bet atpre-seed accelerator stage,
because the longer things go on,the more chance, the more set
you are in the business thatyou're building.
So at pre-seed I'm willing toinvest in a founder in a
(20:33):
business that I might hate mighthate.
Sam Maule (20:37):
So I went on Twitter about an hour before we did this
and just went ahead and said ifyou've got a question for Shiel
, ask me and I'll make sure I'llask him.
So I've got to do this now andI'm going to slaughter names.
So, everybody, when I say yourname, come on, just you know, be
(20:59):
nice to me.
So Sashi Belumkanda asked allright, you already said that you
invest in pre-seed and seedfintech.
What would you do outside offintech?
Sheel Mohnot (21:06):
For investments, any verticals you look at yeah.
Yeah, I think I really likeinvesting in vertical SaaS too.
I like thinking about theproblems that an SMB has in
trying to solve them.
Where we've invested for themost part has been at the
intersection of FinTech andvertical SaaS, and so, as an
(21:31):
example, companies like Unitthat sell a banking product into
vertical SaaS that's embeddedbanking.
We have a company called Salsathat sells embedded payroll and
then we have a company calledLayer that's embedded accounting
.
They're all sort of of asimilar thesis that these
vertical SaaS companies willbecome fintech companies by
(21:51):
plugging in these variousservices.
But I'd also like to invest inthose vertical SaaS companies
directly.
We've done a couple, but not asmany as I'd like, and I think
the reason is we have built abrand and reputation around
FinTech.
Maia Bittner (22:08):
I was going to say people don't send you their hot
vertical SaaS founders, theydon't think of you.
Yeah, you don't have thatreputation.
Sheel Mohnot (22:16):
Exactly, that's exactly it.
Maia Bittner (22:18):
You get all the best fintech deals.
Sheel Mohnot (22:21):
So, yeah, I think we have some ideas on how we can
build more of a brand invertical SaaS, but right now we
don't have it.
But that's sort of the space.
I would go into A couple ofthings there that the listener
might find interesting is thereare really vertical SaaS
companies being built in everycategory and like the nichiest
(22:42):
categories.
You'll see one moving companies, golf clubs, what else, like
lawn services, businesses andwhile I want to invest in these
categories, in vertical SaaS asa category, I do think some of
these are too small.
Some of these will lead to $200million business, $300 million,
(23:06):
$500 million business, which,for a $150 million fund,
unfortunately, an exit of thatsize doesn't move the needle for
me.
I'm still interested in thecategory, but it has to be one
where I think there's anopportunity to build a
billion-dollar-plus business.
Sam Maule (23:28):
All right, the next one.
This is for Maia and Sheel.
Sheel Mohnot (23:31):
This one comes from our friend Jesse.
Sam Maule (23:32):
Padel who doesn't know Jesse Talking about
Pittsburgh.
He said look, I'd like to knowboth Maia and Sheel's
perspective on consumer, fintechand non-bank financial
providers.
Sheel Mohnot (23:42):
Where is the growth and?
Sam Maule (23:43):
expansion going to come from?
Should there be more neobanks?
And Maia's smiling at me.
Sheel Mohnot (23:50):
Maia, you go first I could go first.
Maia Bittner (23:54):
So I'm excited about consumer fintech.
I think it is really hard tobuild a billion-dollar business
in consumer fintech.
Like Sheel was saying, it'slike you've got to build
something big and it's reallytricky to find the business
model that's going to make sensethere.
In terms of neobanks, I thinkthere could be more neobanks,
(24:24):
but you've got to be reallyprecise about the customer that
you're serving and why yoursolution is going to be better
than what's out there.
We've talked on this podcastbefore about chase.
Chase does a damn good job atcredit cards.
They do a great.
Their atms are incredibly cool.
Have you seen the like blinkylights and you can scan?
Sam Maule (24:41):
I like their ATMs.
Maia Bittner (24:42):
That's what I'm saying.
Their ATMs are great, likeChase does a great job at
consumer banking the middleclass and their app.
I don't know if you use theChase app.
It's great, it's easy to use,transfer your money, do your
thing.
It's got my mortgage and mycredit cards in one place.
So I think you know.
I'm not saying there's not roomfor more neobanks, but you got
(25:03):
to find the customer segmentthat is not, that is not getting
what they need from Chase todayor all the other like.
There's just a lot of options,really crowded space.
That's my answer.
Sheel Mohnot (25:12):
All right, shiel, you're up, okay.
I tend to agree with Maia.
So I would say I think thereare verticals where you can make
it work.
It's really hard.
I think a couple of reasons whyit might be more exciting than
it was in the past.
We didn't, during the likegolden age of neobanks sort of
(25:36):
like 2020 and 2021, when everysingle neobank was getting
funded you know the neobank Iused to joke that there would be
a neobank for pets and then Iliterally saw a neobank for pet
owners and you know, while allthose were getting funded, we
mostly stayed on the sidelines.
We did a couple.
(25:56):
We did a company called Relaythat's an SMB focused neobank.
It's doing very well, and thenwe did a company called Charlie
that is a neobank plus plus forseniors, and we felt like that
one was an underserved marketand a founder that we really
(26:18):
liked, but we stayed away fromthe bulk of them.
Now why?
I think now could be a bettertime than it was then.
If you find the right vertical,the right niche to go after is
one.
Actually, these companies won'tbe overfunded and part of the
(26:47):
problem was overfunding in thesector, not to say that a
neobank for pet owners is what Iwould invest in, but some sort
of consumer app that wasinteresting and innovative could
totally work, and not havingtoo much money is actually a
superpower.
I think the overfunding led tosort of not getting to product
(27:11):
market fit soon enough.
It led to long payback periods,stuff like that, and having
less money might mean a moreefficient business to start with
.
And then I actually thinkcustomer acquisition has gotten
a little bit better.
I think it isn't much talkedabout, but meta has made a lot
(27:34):
of strides with AI and some ofthose have been better ad
targeting, so you actually cando paid a little bit better In
consumer fintech.
I generally think, generallyspeaking, you have to start out
with paid marketing.
There are some businesses thathave some other way to do it,
(27:56):
but generally, paid is part ofit.
So you are, generally speaking,shoveling some money to
Facebook and Google, and thefact that they've gotten a
little bit better is a goodthing.
This is a personal question,this one's for me, because I'm
like I think I already know Maiamaya's position on this, because
you're talking about M meta andI've I've had issues with the
(28:18):
company in the past.
Just yeah, you know, let's befrank, but what they've done in
this partnership with R rayban,I'm beyond impressed, dude, I
feel like she'll, she'll wearingthem.
Maia Bittner (28:32):
Sheel and I are biggest fans.
Sam Maule (28:34):
Yeah, I'm impressed.
I didn't see that coming,really slick.
Sheel Mohnot (28:39):
It's a great product and I think it's it's
interesting Like I've had thesesince December now and I've
literally only seen a coupleother people.
I actually just I think I'veonly seen one other person
wearing them.
Maia Bittner (28:53):
There are all these AI products out there,
you're in San Francisco, right,I'm in San Francisco exactly.
They tell you how good it is.
Sam Maule (29:01):
We have done this entire podcast.
We've been talking for 29minutes and I just now figured
out you're wearing them.
They actually look.
That's the confidence.
Sheel Mohnot (29:09):
They're just my everyday glasses Shooting video,
video, video, audio.
Um, video, photo audio are themost useful things, but actually
I'm starting to use the aithing more.
Um, and it's just like you know, meta, ai, um, whatever they
use in these glasses, it feelsyou know reasonably good um, as
(29:32):
goodGPT, but the answers arepretty short.
So, better, yeah, nice, and soI really like it.
And, sam, you should get them.
Anybody who wears glassesalready it feels like if you
wear glasses and you liketechnology, you're okay trying a
(29:53):
V2 product.
It's a pretty slick V2 product.
So, yeah, I'm a big fan.
And in general, meta, I thinkyou know I think so, a like
caveat, my wife works there, butB and I'm a stockholder.
But yeah, I think the year ofefficiency was really good for
(30:15):
them and they did have too manypeople, but they're working on
really cool stuff.
They're investing a lot in AI.
They're building products likethis that are great, like this
(30:37):
that are great and um, I thinkzuck said he thinks the future
of the mobile phone might beglasses like these and, um, the
future laptop might be your vrgoggles, like the meta quest or
apple vision pro I made mayaconvince me.
Sam Maule (30:50):
I've been following Maia on Twitter and her
interactions using it with herkids.
It just makes all the sense inthe world to me.
Maia Bittner (30:57):
It's really cool for kids.
Sheel, have you tried the SoulReader?
Sheel Mohnot (31:03):
I haven't.
People talk about it and seemto love it To read books right.
Maia Bittner (31:09):
Yeah, to read books.
I just bought one.
Don't have it yet.
Sheel Mohnot (31:14):
I know it's super hype Like there's like a waiting
list to get one or something.
Maia Bittner (31:17):
Yeah, well, I mean , anybody can have a waiting
list.
You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, butit is hype.
I'm excited.
I mean, a Kindle is prettylight and easy to hold, but
people say it's a great readingexperience.
I just I have to say I reallydidn't expect that glasses would
be like the new human computerinterface standard.
Sheel Mohnot (31:41):
Yeah, I feel now, for the first time, fortunate
for my poor eyesight.
Sam Maule (31:47):
Yeah, well, that that and again.
I mean, you know, as a formerGoogler, remember when Google
Glass came out?
Yeah, I had that, yeah, so it'sthe whole.
You know there'll be a glasshole and that whole effect.
And, like I said, we've beentalking for 30 minutes and until
you turned your head I didn'trealize you were wearing them.
You know, Until I saw theRay-Bans logo, I was like holy
cow.
Sheel Mohnot (32:06):
I actually think Like so I think the world has
changed in the.
What has it been?
It's been 12 years since GoogleGlass launched and you know
there were the people kicked outof the restaurant in San
Francisco for wearing it orwhatever back then.
But the world has changed.
(32:26):
Like, everybody has smartphones, everybody's taking photos all
the time.
Everybody has smartphones.
Everybody's taking photos allthe time.
I don't think the perception ofbeing photographed is the same
as it was 12 years ago, so theprivacy issues, I think, are
much less than they were then.
(32:47):
I do have people like, wheneverI post something from it, like I
posted something today.
I was in New Orleans yesterdayat Jazz Fest and I posted a
short video of, like, walkingdown the street Cause it's
something where, like, I didn'twant to have my phone out, I
just want to enjoy the moment,but pressing a button and
recording was really fun.
And somebody is like, oh well,did you get?
Did you get sign off from allthose people that you took video
from from your glasses?
It's like no, but like there'sa bunch of people out there with
(33:09):
phones out and they didn'teither.
And, by the way, if you're in aparade, a TV station is taking
a video and they're not like.
Every time I post something,somebody is like talking about
the privacy concerns, but itdoesn't make any sense to me
whatsoever.
That's not a rule we have inthis country.
Maia Bittner (33:26):
It also you're allowed to take people on the
streets Blinking light on it.
Sheel Mohnot (33:29):
It has a blinking light, true, yeah, exactly, yeah
, it kind of shows you.
I'm taking a video right now.
You can see the light.
Maia Bittner (33:37):
It looks electronic, it looks like you're
doing something, even if youdidn't know, that meant you were
taking a video.
I feel like it's more in yourface than if somebody's like oh,
it looks like they're textingon their phone and they're
actually recording totally,totally.
Sam Maule (33:49):
This is a form factor .
Makes sense to me.
You know the iphone or theandroid order.
They have this brick.
It's been around now forforever and a day.
You know, we're almost comingup on 20 years and what is the
next thing?
And I gotta say I was watchingone in miami over the weekend
and at the start, and all thepeople with their phones out
recording, I thought, man, itjust makes much more sense for
(34:10):
the glasses you know to be inthe moment to do both to record
and all that, but to be in themoment and actually not looking
through.
Sheel Mohnot (34:18):
You know this handheld device that was the
first time where I went uh-oh, Ithink I'm starting to see maybe
a paradigm shift, you know itis funny.
You go to a concert and peoplelike everybody has their phones
out and is basically looking atthe concert through their phone.
It's just like kind of weird.
Um, I do, I don't, you know.
I haven't figured out whatpeople who don't wear glasses
(34:41):
already are going to do, though,like this makes sense if you
already wear glasses.
If you don't, are you going tostart wearing glasses with clear
, clear lenses?
Um, maybe I?
I don't.
Sam Maule (34:53):
Yeah, it'll be curious to see how the adoption
goes for it.
Maia Bittner (34:57):
So, Shiel, you're recording this podcast for us,
and I noticed that you'rewearing your glasses and your
AirPods.
I'm curious if you thoughtabout just having the sound
through your glasses and if youever do that?
Sheel Mohnot (35:11):
yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, great question.
So I um, I don't use the audiofrom my glasses for my laptop
it's not, I use it on my phone.
Maia Bittner (35:23):
Okay, well, and I could use.
Sheel Mohnot (35:25):
I could do it, but the handoff is not, so I only
use the glasses.
Audio for my phone Okay, and Ithink the audio quality is
probably a little bit better onthe AirPods, but it's pretty
good on the glasses.
Like when I'm talking to peopleon the phone, most of the time
(35:47):
I'm using my glasses.
And like when I'm walking orbiking around the city, I
usually use my glasses.
Okay, I I'm walking or bikingaround the city, I usually use
my glasses.
Maia Bittner (35:54):
Okay, I was just curious, right, if it was your
all-day Zoom meeting setup ornot.
That makes sense.
Sam Maule (36:03):
Okay, Sam, you can go .
You got another one for him.
Maia Bittner (36:05):
Yeah, back to you.
Sam Maule (36:07):
I should have done this whole thing on this man
dude.
I really didn't realize.
Rachel, you edit all this out.
Maia Bittner (36:14):
I really have no clue.
And I don't wear glasses and Ilove the metal glasses.
Sam Maule (36:21):
Yeah, I know you do.
I mean.
Sheel Mohnot (36:23):
I did?
Sam Maule (36:23):
I got laser eyes.
Sheel Mohnot (36:25):
All right, one last question, so do you wear
the sunglasses or do you weartransition?
What do you do?
Maia Bittner (36:29):
So I got the transition ones.
Sunglasses, or do you weartransition, what do you?
So I got the transition ones.
I kind of regret it, um,because transitions are, they're
like.
They're just, I feel likethey're kind of lame.
They don't get like as dark asI want.
They're not as clear like it'stoo slow yeah, I don't do that.
Sam Maule (36:44):
Yeah, I talk to.
I've worn glasses my whole lifeand I put on I put on well, I
need my phone.
I put on prescription glasses,sunglasses, ray-bans, of all
things.
When I go out, I just switchthem around.
Maia Bittner (36:56):
I'm thinking so the medical glasses.
I think they're like sold outand there's a wait list, so I
was thinking about selling mineon eBay or something and buying
two of them clear ones andsunglass ones because the
transitions bother me that much.
Or maybe even just sunglassones, because the transitions
bother me that much, I but, ormaybe even just sunglass ones,
um, I'm not sure.
(37:16):
the thing is, I love talking onthe phone with them because I
feel like I can hear everythingaround me, they're just the best
way to do phone calls and, likesometimes, I'm just in my house
and I don't want to be wearingsunglasses in my house to take a
phone call.
Sam Maule (37:30):
Yeah, or any of the big.
Sheel Mohnot (37:35):
No, I think I think it's.
It's just with with Ray-Ban, Ithink.
I think actually what happenedwas Ray-Ban hired people.
So there were these Bose Bosesunglasseslass, sunglasses with
(37:55):
audio and then I remember those,yeah, yeah they didn't really
take off, but if I think, rayban hired some people from that
team yeah and so they werebuilding something already, and
then they teamed up with meta todo the smart stuff.
There, you, go.
Sam Maule (38:11):
Okay, that makes sense.
Okay, sorry, rachel, that wasjust selfish because I had to
know.
Okay, last question this iscoming from andrew morris, um,
and this is actually a prettyinteresting question.
So, shiel, what's the bestthing you've ever said on stage
at industry event and what's theworst thing you've ever said on
stage?
Sheel Mohnot (38:30):
that is a great question best thing you've said
on stage worst thing you've saidon stage oh man, I I can think
of the worst thing I've said onstage.
Probably I think I was, um, Iwas skeptical that this is
(38:51):
probably 2016 or somethingaround then and I think I
probably I shared my skepticismaround wealth front being a big
business and I think you know Iwas just like they make a small
margin.
You know it's kind of race tothe bottom on fees, costs a lot
(39:14):
to acquire customers and it'stough, and I think all those
things are true, but they'vedone better than I expected.
You know they had that whatever$1.4 billion acquisition that
didn't end up going through, butI think now they're doing
better.
So, you know, worst thing I didwas was doubt Wealthfront.
(39:37):
Best thing I've said, I don'tknow, I think.
I think I think around that sametime I probably said, probably
had some like negative thoughtson lending that most of these
lenders should not be, are notventure businesses, and the
reason that I believe that is,as venture capitalists, we
(40:00):
invest in growth and it's easyto grow giving out money and
it's hard to get that money backsometimes, or or sometimes an
event happens where it's hard,where things change, and so I
kind of said, oh no, guys,here's, here's a downside of
(40:20):
these glasses.
I just touched the side of myglasses and now can you hear
what?
Can you hear what's happening?
And it's playing your podcastartificially intelligent.
Sam Maule (40:37):
That's actually crazy .
Sheel Mohnot (40:38):
Okay, meta use case yeah, sorry, okay, so um
what I was saying?
Okay, lending, um.
So I think the smartest thing Isaid was you know, pure play,
lending is not a venture scalebusiness I love that.
Maia Bittner (40:49):
Both your best and worst were skepticisms of
businesses and their businessmodels.
That's.
Sam Maule (40:55):
That's what happens when you're an OG.
So, folks, we got, we got tohave to wrap.
We could do this for hours.
Sheel Mohnot (41:02):
Yeah, this is fun guys.
It is, you guys are funconversationalists.
Sam Maule (41:07):
What's the best place for folks to learn more about
you and learn more about theclub?
Sheel Mohnot (41:11):
Probably Twitter at pit.
They see p-i-t-d-e-s-i I.
I actually did a.
Somebody asked me to review theglasses, so I like recorded
myself walking around for sixminutes with them so you can
find that on there, um, but yeah, and from there you can find my
website and other stuff too.
I'm 100 per se.
Sam Maule (41:31):
Yeah, I will say if you really want to have a lot of
fun, follow MaiaB on Twitter.
File show on Twitter.
I do both.
I think it's funny as hell, butyou also learn a lot.
So there's my recommendationFor me LinkedIn or Twitter.
Just ping me If you have ideasfor a show let us know.
We'd love to hear them Alsogive us a review, five stars, of
course, anything else, go writeanother podcast.
Sheel Mohnot (41:53):
Thanks for listening everybody.
We love having you here.
Send me an email Good review,bad review - Screw, you Don't do
it.
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