March 27, 2024 • 58 mins
Join SAA ED Em Ironstar and Roberta Cross for a lively discussion which dives into how the SAA is "Reimagining Governance" and the process that facilitated change. Em and Roberta talk about implementing honorarium payments for board members and bylaw changes that have critically shifted governance practices at the SAA. Governance and bylaw work might sound boring, but this episode is anything but!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Your collective voice for the arts across
Saskatchewan.
This is Arts Everywhere theSaskatchewan Arts Alliance
podcast.
Her mother, charlotte, was acreative in her own right.
(00:29):
Her dad, john, was a kookyvisionary.
Together, they gave thisepisode's guest the gift of
practicality.
So what has Roberta Cross donewith this gift?
Political and internationaldegrees, a diplomat with the
federal government for 11 years,live in Cuba and Spain and,
(00:49):
while you're there, earn abusiness degree and then
eventually come back toSaskatchewan, where you get to
offer insight and hands-onmediation and guidance.
And the Saskatchewan ArtsAlliance has been the
beneficiary of Roberta's gifts.
Roberta has amazing listeningskills and with those skills,
she inspires us all to imaginesomething new and then figure
(01:14):
out the practical.
Roberta and M Ironstar discusshow the Saskatchewan Arts
Alliance found a new vision ofgovernance and, with Roberta as
a facilitator, exceedexpectations of what that looks
like today.
If you have a clear picture,not based on the same old same
old, but based on what could bechange can come quickly.
(01:37):
This episode celebrates justhow far the Saskatchewan Arts
(02:02):
Alliance has come in itsgovernance.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Okay, cool Podcast time, podcast time.
Let's see, I feel like we'vebeen trying to do this for a
while, I know.
Yeah, hi, roberta.
Hey, so nice to be talking toyou.
Yeah, really really good tohave you as a guest on the
podcast.
And yeah, I was trying to kindof thinking back on my drive
over here.
I think it's probably maybegetting close to about two years
since we met.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
I think so, I think so, and it was right at the tail
end of COVID.
And yeah, I think we talked oremailed and then we actually saw
each other at Lugo, and it waslike oh my gosh, yeah, that's
right there was this moment?
Where is it okay to hug?
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Can we hug?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
each other.
And I think we did.
I remember that really well.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Yeah, yeah, time flies.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
I know, and it's been a beautiful time, yeah, yeah, a
really rich time, so I'mgrateful for it.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
And I'm happy to be able to talk about it.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Happy to be here in Saskatoonon Treaty 6.
It's you know I'm back andforth quite a bit these days and
it's always great to get tospend some time in Saskatoon.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
And so we're here at my house.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
And specifically, this house is on the land of the
Round Prairie Métis communitywho lived in this neighborhood.
Like now it's a neighborhood,but on this land up until the
50s.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Amazing.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yeah, so they actually had their homes, like
what is now a couple blocks fromhere.
Yeah, and this was likeforaging and pasturing area.
Wow, that's good to know.
Yeah, I think when you can getto know exactly who you're
grateful to and for for whereyou live, it's a really powerful
experience.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
I like to share that, thank you.
So for the folks listening outthere maybe just want to give a
little bit of an introduction toyourself and, kind of, maybe we
can get into why we're chatting, right, okay?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
The big picture, the embarrassing big picture.
Okay, well, I grew up inSaskatoon.
My parents were John andCharlotte Cross, and I only say
that because my Cree friendshave taught me how to make an
introduction like that and thatmy family and my background does
matter like that and that myfamily and my background does
(04:08):
matter.
And my mother was a verypractical person, very
intelligent woman, veryoutspoken, very funny, and my
dad was a real sort of visionary, a little kooky but had, like
big visions, and so I'm alwaysgrateful to them because I feel
that they've given me like thisweird mix of seeing the big
picture, like in being reallycreative but also like being
really practical, of like howare we going to get there?
(04:29):
And I think, when we can lookback at our ancestors and say,
wow, I inherited something goodand also leave behind the stuff
you don't need anymore, right, Ithink it's good.
So that's kind of.
That's sort of what I bringinto the world Other things too.
And so I did a politicalstudies degree, an international
studies degree, here at theUniversity of Saskatchewan, and
(04:50):
then I joined the federalgovernment.
I was a diplomat Most peopledon't know what that is and I
did it because I thought there'dbe a lot of parties and dancing
and there were but there wasalso a lot of really important
work in trying to understandpeople of different cultures,
people who speak differentlanguages, people have different
points of view, and then tryingto help explain what they need
(05:10):
or want to other people who maynot normally be in contact with
them or understand them.
I lived in Spain and I wasreally, really fortunate.
It was a good career and I meta lot of fascinating people and
I, yeah, and it was a reallycreative profession and a
(05:31):
difficult one too, but I'mgrateful to have had it, and I
did manage to spend a lot oftime with politicians and in
political offices at a veryyoung age like I was 23, and
sitting in a minister's officeand basically biting my nails,
wondering what the hell am Idoing here.
So I learned quite a bit abouthow government works and how the
(05:51):
letters get written and how thedecisions get made, because I
was part of that for a long time.
So, and then that was a greatcareer, but then I decided I'd
rather work for myself, so I dida business degree in Spain and
then ended up coming back toCanada.
I led a non-profit for a whileand then my mom felt sick and
(06:12):
she was here in Saskatoon and Iwanted to be with her.
So I came home and mostly havebeen doing projects like this
one, this beautiful one thatwe've been working on, as a
person who's self-employed, andso I've done a lot of mediation
and facilitation and writing,and you know, when people have
(06:32):
changes or challenges orconflicts, even I kind of like
to come in and sort of say, hey,you know, could we see this
differently, could you see a newperspective?
You know, how could this bedifferent?
And again going back to myparents, like imagining
something new but also figuringout the practical part, so
anyway, so that's kind oflong-winded but, that's great.
That's my piece.
(06:52):
Yeah, and I also, here inSaskatchewan, have a special
relationship with sometraditional land which I hold
for reconciliation.
So the company I have, which iscalled Grow Solutions, is
technically a social enterprisebecause all the profits go to
support that land and thatproject and protecting and
(07:12):
restoring that land on the SouthSaskatchewan River Amazing.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Yeah.
So yeah, we were kind of theway our circles intertwined was
at the time Tara Jansen, who wasat the Ramey and also on the
Saskatchewan Arts Alliance board, right when I had kind of first
started at the Arts Alliancearound HR, because as a new
(07:47):
executive director at the time Iwas feeling kind of completely
lost around around what to dowith, uh, you know, job
description development andmaking sure to get it right.
Um, and so she introduced usand that was kind of, I think,
one of our, our first projectsworking together after we had
gotten a increase in operationalfunding at the Arts Alliance to
be able to figure out what thisjob of research lead was going
(08:09):
to look like.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Absolutely right.
Yeah, and I mean Tara and Ihave known each other a long
time, so it's always nice to beintroduced, because then it's
based on relationship and that'swhat matters to me most Like
it's based on relationship andthat's what matters to me most.
And what I'm always interestedin is not like, like, what do
you really want to do?
(08:31):
I mean, I was so curious aboutyou as a person, as a
professional, in this new role.
Like it was so interesting tome to think and imagine what you
were going to do with thisbudget and how you were going to
envision the this budget andhow you were going to envision
the organization growing and howit was going to support you.
So for me, it was so excitingto have those conversations with
(08:53):
you and listen to you, yeah,and then be able to reflect back
to you oh well, I hear yougoing in this direction, or what
if we tried this?
And so, really, we just had anextended, in-depth conversation
about what does the SAA need andwith what you have now, and
like what you needed to reallythrive and enjoy this work and
(09:13):
your own skills, which are likehefty and wonderful, you know
what was really going to fly.
And so I was thrilled by thatand I mean I'm really thrilled
where you've taken it.
So I was thrilled by that and Imean I'm really thrilled where
you've taken it and I think theSAA to have an in-house
full-time researcher is sosignificant.
Focused on Saskatchewan,focused on the arts ecology here
(09:36):
, dedicated to really the goalsand the purpose of the SAA, and
I think it's tremendous and Ithink Arianna's, you know I mean
a year in like it's amazingwhat's happening and I'm really
proud to have been part of thoseconversations early on.
And like just hearing you know,okay, what could work right,
(09:56):
like to almost play a little bitand be a little artistic with
how could this work?
And even writing the jobdescription was an artistic
project.
Project like what do we want tosay and how do we want to talk
about it yeah, how to?
Speaker 3 (10:07):
how to set the tone for what we want, how we want to
work right?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
yeah, who do we invite in right?
Yeah like I mean, maybe thatgoes back to being a diplomat
and organizing a lot of parties.
But, yeah, a lot of situationslike how do we make this
welcoming for people?
How do we invite someone in?
That's really going to thriveand enjoy this environment right
(10:32):
.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
So, yeah, I think I was.
Actually.
We had a staff meeting thismorning and I think now, having
this conversation, justreflecting back on Arianna, and
having the research leadposition, I think one of the
most exciting things about it isthe ability to be responsive.
That in previous you knowiterations of research at the
Arts Alliance, it was alwaysvery focused because it was
based around projects, projectfunding, specific objectives
with different you knowinstitutions, which is great.
(10:55):
It's its own thing, you know.
No, no shade to that at all.
But what's been, I think what'sreally unique now is that we
have the ability to respond toarising needs from the community
, from the funders, fromgovernment, that we're not
locked into something specificnecessarily, even though there's
long-term priorities and thatsort of thing that we can.
(11:15):
Now the economic impact report,for example.
That wasn't really we reallywanted to do it, but we were
able to kind of shift thingsaround and reprioritize and say
this is important.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Now it's about responsiveness, yeah, and I
would even say having afull-time, permanent research
lead means, then, that Jessicacan focus on listening to the
membership and hearing what theyhave to say and being able to
(11:48):
respond to what they're askingfor, because a lot of what's
beautiful about what's happeningwith the SAA right now is that
it's responsive to the needs ofthe membership.
It's responsive to thegovernment's needs for
information and knowledge tomake good decisions, and so, by
having the in-house researchstrength means that you can
(12:09):
focus your outreach and yourcommunications on your
membership and hearing and thensaying, okay, we heard you,
here's what we have in response,and I think that's an exciting
change because, you're right,collaborative research is
gorgeous, but being able torespond to your membership is
fundamental, and it'sessentially who you are.
You're a membership driven, notdriven, I mean, you're a
(12:31):
membership organization, andunless that's a direct,
multi-directional conversationwith your membership, it gets a
little boring.
Yeah, for real.
Yeah, so, and I just want tosay jessica like brings so much
to the table too.
Yeah, and that was an excitingpart of the conversation early
on is how many people she knowsand the depth of her knowledge
(12:52):
about who's who in this province.
Yeah, so, and to see her havethe time and space to really
flourish with that knowledge.
Yeah, I think it's an excitingthing too.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Yeah, with that knowledge, I think is an
exciting thing too.
Yeah, and that was another partof the work that we started off
with in bringing the digitalcommunications collaborative
position and Tia, who you willhave heard of in a previous
episode.
So, yeah, really it's been justthe growth of the capacity and
the team at the SAA and kind ofbuilding on foundations.
(13:23):
It's been, it's been reallyexciting and it's it's um, so
heartening, I think, to kind ofwatch it form and, and you know,
the longer we work together,it's yeah, I think, I think
we're it's I couldn't ask for abetter team.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
No, you really couldn't.
It's fantastic, right, and it'salways wonderful to have
someone who stands a little bitoutside of your life, in your
circle, who has a little bitmore experience, and can just
say, hmm, what about this?
Yeah, hmm, what about that?
I heard you say such and suchthree weeks ago, and to just
remind us where we're at,because when you're starting
(14:02):
something new, find us wherewe're at, because when you're
starting something new and beingbrave as you have, it gets a
little disorienting sometimes,and I think it's a really
powerful human experience tohave someone else just say hey,
I see you and here's the thingsI see you doing, and let's keep
going.
So that's how I kind of seethis unfolding.
(14:23):
Again, I find consultants thatcome in and go oh, I have the
answer to be really offensivebecause they don't like.
Everybody knows their ownbusiness and everybody knows
their own life, and so I justenjoy being welcomed in to sort
of observe and say, hey, whatabout this?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Yeah, and I think, um , you know, as an artist and as
someone who, I think, operatesin a visual and auditory space a
lot of the time, I found it's areally interesting way of
working, to be working throughconversation.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Absolutely yeah, and we also had visual moments, do
you remember?
Yeah?
There was a final moment wherewe were like okay, what does the
research lead need to look like?
And it dawned on me to ask youcould you draw a picture, could
you make a visual of what thisperson needs to be and needs to
do?
And and bam that that coalescedthe whole story.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Yeah, if I could find it, maybe we'll try to find a
way to put it into the shownotes, because it's kind of fun
it was amazing, it was reallyreally great.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah, so, yeah, and I I think it's true like, as
artists, if we can't put ourthoughts and our projects into
our medium, then we need tospend some more time thinking
about them.
Yeah and um.
So when you were able toproduce that work of art in such
a short period of time, it wasclear to me that you knew
exactly and felt exactly whatthe right way forward was.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
So that was a great moment.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah, although I have to say I do use that visual
technique with, like more sortof corporate clients and you
wouldn't believe the looks ontheir faces when I get out the
pencil, crayons and the pastelsand I'm like, okay, we're going
to draw what the final result ofthis project is going to be and
everyone's like.
But then I keep like, I keepthose pictures and.
(16:10):
I pull them out, like during theprocess, and I remind people
visually of what they imagined.
And it is amazing the resultsof that and those people with
the kind of look on their facesstart to think oh no, there is
some consistency here.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Yeah, so it's in, everybody it is.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
And it transcends divisions.
Yeah, so when you're in asituation where you're trying to
determine an outcome andthere's some conflict or some
challenge, if you can look atthe image of it, the image of
where you need to be at the end,you don't get so tangled up in
the words or your own hang-upsor how you feel you need to be
(16:54):
right or how you're disagreeingwith the other person.
You can actually just getabsorbed in the shape and the
color and what you rememberedthat you'd visualized.
Right, so yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
So I think a lot of the kind of meat and potatoes
about what we want to talk abouttoday is around kind of the
next kind of piece or chunk ofwork of initiative that we did
together, work of initiativethat we did together and that
(17:29):
was around, I would say,reimagining what governance at
the SAA looks like, which wasreally exciting, I think,
probably one of the mostexciting things that's happened
at the SAA since I've been therefor the what?
two and a half years orsomething and this was something
that was brought forward as apriority by the current by Tara,
(17:52):
Tara and Alejandro and peopleon the board at the time.
Yeah, and it was needed.
It was definitely a neededpiece of work in order to, I
think, make sure that the SAAwas the organization that it
needed to be for the artscommunity.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
And you know, I think a lot of people think, oh,
governance, that's boring.
Right, and it can be boring,but if you see it as how do we
relate to each other and how dowe make decisions and how do we
make good decisions together?
And then also like imagininghow you want to make decisions
(18:33):
together, because I think a lotof governance is like they say
it has to be like this, yeah,and when we started these
conversations, there were a lotof people saying, well, you
can't pay honorariums, you'vegot to have this and you have to
do that.
Saying, well, you can't payhonorariums and you've got to
have this and you have to dothat.
And you can probably tell bynow I'm the kind of person where
you say that to me.
I'm like, oh really.
(18:56):
So when we dug into it, therewere actually a lot of examples
of people not doing those thingsand those were just old habits
that had come from buildingnonprofit boards based on a copy
of corporate boards in the 70sand it had never been updated.
And people just get into thathabit and then they think that's
how it has to be.
So I mean, one of the giftsagain of having lived overseas
and lived in other cultures isI'm always like well, does it
(19:18):
really have to be like that?
So and again, I'm going to goback to how like important
responsiveness is and how this,like the whole process, has been
about relationship, becauseTara Jansen and Alejandro Romero
were on the board and they werelike Alejandro wasn't quite
there yet.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Oh, wasn't he Not quite?
Oh, that's right too, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
That's right too.
Yeah, so, but I have to say hisname because he played a
significant part very quickly,and Tara's point was I'd like us
to pay honorariums to boardmembers to reflect the fact that
artists are working hard.
We have to respect artists andtheir time.
We're an organization that'sabout valuing artists, and
(20:03):
corporate boards pay people tobe on boards and we're taking
people's time and we're takingpeople's effort.
Why wouldn't we do that?
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
So I think we're, if I remember correctly, where this
started is.
That came to you and then westarted working together and
then the board passed like akind of a preliminary sort of
we're willing to look athonorariums and a few other
changes and gave you the mandateto go forward and start to
explore some of these ideas andsee how they could change and
(20:34):
improve the work of the board.
Yeah, so then I joined you andthen we interviewed eight people
.
Yeah, and there's some reallyfascinating people we talked to.
Yeah, we talked to people who'dbeen on the board and who'd
left and they were really, andall these interviews were
anonymous so that people couldbe frank, right, and people
talked about, you know, what hadbeen challenging and what
hadn't worked for them.
We talked to some of thethought leaders in this province
(20:56):
and we have some real powerfulpeople, right.
So people thinking aboutnonprofit governance and arts
governance and arts governancewe talked about to some people
who are doing thought leadershipin different areas of
accessibility and welcoming andmaking sure that all kinds of
people are present at the boardtable, because really the goal
(21:18):
was to have a board thatabsolutely reflects your
membership and your membershipis wonderful.
Your membership and yourmembership is whoa like
wonderful and all from allcorners and representing all
kinds of people.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
So the epitome of intersectionality right so, um,
we came back with a report,right, yeah, so we presented
that report and um I I have tosay, though, those conversations
were fascinating yeah, theywere really they were.
That was a really um, importantpart of kind of how we came to
(21:57):
you know the report and andgetting to kind of build those
connections and spend that timewith those folks was like really
I learned so much.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I did too.
Yeah, I did too, and I learneda lot from you and I learned a
lot from every person that spoke.
Yeah, and again it like for me,it just really opened my
thinking about what could happenhere and what are people
thinking about and how could wemake that practical.
How can we actually put that towork?
Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,it was fun and I really enjoyed
(22:30):
that.
Like we did it together, likewe did those interviews together
, and I took, like I did,transcription so we had people's
direct quotes, because I reallybelieve in that.
Like you have to listen toexactly what people are saying,
and I think I asked thequestions and you had the
freedom to listen and askadditional questions.
So it was also good because wewere both there to really listen
(22:53):
to the people who were sharing,and I thought that was
respectful.
And then the other respectfulpart was we gave everybody an
honorarium for their time.
We weren't like, oh, can you dothis for me?
No we were like you havesomething to say, we need to
hear it and we want to sharewith you, so I felt that that
was an important part of theprocess too.
Yeah, set the groundwork, yeahright, yeah Well, and then right
(23:14):
.
And then it was like well,that's an easy sidestep to say
well, board members needhonorariums too.
And we found that there areother organizations paying
honorariums to non-profit boardmembers.
Yeah, yeah, and we also foundthere was no rule against it.
Yeah, even though people thinkthere is one, there isn't one
Technically, no, no.
And I will never forget thelook on the lawyer's face when
(23:36):
we shared the bylaws with himeventually, and he just looked
completely perplexed but hecouldn't find anything wrong,
like he'd never seen what theSAA's new bylaws looked like.
He looked completely perplexedand yet sort of encouraged and
you used the word heartened LikeI wonder if he went home
thinking, wow, things could bedifferent.
So yeah, so we.
(23:58):
So I think what happened was wepresented that report,
Everybody on the board gave itsome consideration, and one of
those changes happened rightaway, which was the honorarium,
introducing an honorarium.
Do you want to explain how thatworks?
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Yeah, so we were able .
So one of the recommendationsthat came out of the report was
supported.
Kind of what we wanted to do andwhat we expected going in was
that, you know, we wanted tovalue people's time with an
honorarium, and so we proposed abylaw amendment at our 2022 AGM
(24:36):
.
Basically, that would allow forthat to occur, so we could give
board members honorariumpayments for the meetings that
they attend, members honorariumpayments for the meetings that
they attend, and basically whatended up happening is this was a
bylaw amendment in that way,but it's related to a policy, so
it's related to a board memberhonorarium and expenses policy
(24:59):
that was also approved at thetime and it basically just
outlines the details about, youknow, the amount of the
honorarium, the you know thefrequency of when it's paid, how
it's processed, like all thekind of nuts and bolts about how
it works, and those aredefinitely like.
All of this information is onour website and we'll link to it
(25:21):
because we want to freely sharekind of all the work we've done
around this to help otherpeople if it's something that
they're considering as well.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Absolutely Right.
And sometimes you hear the wordpolicy and you think, oh right,
but it's basically just whatare we going to do, how are we
going to do it?
And it's written down so thatyou don't everybody knows it's
agreed, it's transparent andit's shareable, and then you
don't have to think about itevery time.
You know exactly what's goingto happen.
Yeah, so some of this was aboutwriting good, clear policies.
(25:52):
Like you know, the how-to list,like policies and procedures
are just your how-to list, anddoing it in a really like clear
writing kind of way.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Yeah, so yeah yeah, and I will say just for
transparency sake that, um, oneof the things with with the
honorariums is that if wesettled on an amount, the amount
we went with was, I believe,$155.
And that was through some otherorganizations that are doing
things like this and what otherboards pay and that sort of
(26:20):
thing, and it felt comfortable,like a comfortable amount to
start out with and that if thereare changes to that amount made
in the future, it has to bevoted on by the SAA membership.
So it's not just, you know, theboard that can decide to change
the amount of the honorarium.
It's something that the wholemembership needs to come
(26:42):
together and agree on.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah, and then I think the other thing that's
important too is that allowsboard members to give the
honorarium back or just notaccept the honorarium, and that
accommodates or adapts to thefact that some people work in
large organizations, maybe makeenough money that they feel that
they don't need the honorariumor that that's not how they want
(27:05):
to live their lives, and sothat they can, they have the
freedom to make that choice, andso I thought that was really
beautiful too, because thatresponds to the different kinds
of people that also are in yourmembership and now on your board
.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Yeah, and that really was.
You know, that was somethingthat we always wanted to include
but, you know, once it wasactually in practice, that was a
really interesting spinoff forme, because what I didn't
realize because I'm not anaccountant was when those went
back to the bookkeepers that wework with from the Admin Center
for Sport, culture andRecreation Shout out Admin
(27:41):
Center Yay, admin Center.
That.
Basically that when thosehonorariums are donated back to
the SAA, that those count on ourbooks as donations and so that
increases our self-generatedrevenue, even though it's not an
actual physical exchange ofcash we get to.
(28:01):
You know, it looks different onour books and that was
something that I had neveranticipated.
So it's a good benefit, youknow, benefit for us as an
organization as well, eventhough there's no exchange of
currency.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
And shout out to those people who support you.
Right and I think that's anotherpiece that underlies all of
this work right and everythingthat we've done together in this
whole phase in the SAA isfinding ways to do less and more
meaningful work right, and sohaving a good relationship with
the admin center, where theylook after things like this so
(28:35):
you're not pulling your hair outor missing opportunities like
that, I think, is reallyimportant because you're finding
ways forward to make your ownwork less difficult and that's a
model for other people if theychoose to go there right.
And other arts organizations orany other nonprofit that says,
oh, what's happening in theadmin center?
Maybe we'll use the admincenter right, Because the less
(28:58):
time you spend doing things thataren't contributing to your
real work, the more time youhave to do your real work right,
which is sometimes theequivalent of a bump in funding
because you're just not wastingyour time and resources on
things that aren't thatinteresting so anyway, sorry, I
kind of digressed, but I'm bigon stuff like that.
Right yeah, so great.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Yeah.
So that that was kind of thefirst phase and that was
something that was that wewanted to do immediately and we
felt that it was I hate thephrase, but it was low-hanging
fruit that we could take care ofright away and it was a change
we could make fast saying youknow, we've been doing this work
I think we maybe started in thespring kind of thing and that
was a change that we were ableto implement almost immediately
(29:43):
at the fall AGM.
So that felt really good.
I like a lot of the work Ifound at the SAA around advocacy
and things.
It moves really slow, so itfelt nice to do something fast.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah, exactly, but also sometimes it's kind of fun
to laugh at low hanging fruit,but it's also it's moving at the
speed of trust.
If you say you're going tothink about this and you talk to
a bunch of people and ask themwhat they think it's important
to do something to show themthat you're actually responding
(30:15):
to what they had to say.
I don't think there's anythingmore discouraging than someone
asking you for your time andyour thought and your you know
your consideration and then theygo away and they do nothing.
So parts of this work neededtime and other parts were like,
well, we can do this, let's doit.
And I think it helped generatemore trust in the process and
(30:36):
more comfort actually at theboard table and people were like
, oh, wow, look, we're doingstuff.
And oh, I got an honorarium,which is also good, but also
your membership at the AGM gotto see, oh, we're actually being
invited to do somethingsubstantive, yeah, and make a
significant change so I think itwas great.
I mean I, like, yeah, it'slow-hanging fruit, but it's also
like quite fruitful.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Sorry, yeah, probably , yeah, fruitful yeah and then I
think, uh, one of the other keyuh actions that were identified
in the report from ourconversations was that our
bylaws, policies, kind ofanything, any documents any to
(31:17):
do with governance, needed to bewritten in a simple, accessible
, understandable way, accessible, understandable way.
And then, you know, started tokind of go back and look at the
essays, bylaws that were inplace and it immediately became
clear that a conversation neededto happen around those bylaws,
(31:38):
for a couple of reasons.
One, they were old, they wereoutdated, they were from 2003,
which you know they hadn't beenlooked at in 20 years, which is,
I totally understand.
I understand a lot of timesthese policy and procedure
things.
They are easy to slip down tothe bottom of your list.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Well, and I mean in their defense, let me speak on
behalf of those poor little oldbylaws.
They were great.
Well they were reallyfoundational.
Whoever wrote them.
It was art because, likebringing together an umbrella
organization representing theentire sector was genius, and
the way that it was written wasvery beautiful, Plus your bylaws
(32:21):
.
You're not meant to change themvery often.
They're meant to be like thisis basically who we are.
This is it no-transcript.
(32:49):
I often found myself confused,oh yeah, and I wasn't always
certain either what was going on.
So it was almost like okay,let's take the time to figure
out what really is foundationaland stays the same and what
needs to change, and then whatneeds to just be written better.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, yeah, yeah, so, yeah, yeah.
And so then we about February2023, we had a great board
retreat in Saskatoon at theRamey and spent some time
together as a group, which wasawesome because it was kind of
one of the first times we werethe whole board was together in
(33:25):
person.
We do all of our meetingsthroughout the year over Zoom,
so just kind of having thatin-person introduction and being
in the same physical roomtogether was really great, and
we decided we were going totackle updating these bylaws.
But there was a lot of pre-workthat was done kind of before
that actual retreat weekend too.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Oh yeah, and I'm going to mention Alejandro
Romero again because by thistime he was on the board and I
don't think this is betraying aconfidence.
But he really encouraged us tolook at anti-oppression
approaches and indigenousapproaches around governance and
(34:10):
looking at new ways of shapinghow you make decisions.
And he was right.
And when we think about whatdoes it mean to be in a time of
reconciliation?
And how do you decolonize?
Because that's an active word,it's an active verb, and how do
we put that to work?
(34:30):
And in my experience and in myway of being in the world, it's
a boat relationship and it's aboat saying hmm, are we all
equal partners here?
And how can we have equalpartners at the table?
And how can we make sure thateverybody feels included and
involved?
(34:50):
And rather than you know who'sin charge and who's the
executive, yeah, so that waskind of the spirit that we
carried into that retreat.
Yeah, and we did do quite a bitof work ahead of time, because
you don't want to invite a bunchof people into a room and say
(35:11):
here's 30 pages of boringreading.
Can you do that Like we?
You know, I took the time andwe took the time to go through
it, divide it up into thesections that needed changing,
that needed discussion, and thenones that just needed up like
needed new language.
So we made it manageable.
But I think what was excitingabout being in the same room
(35:34):
together was that people startedto realize that they could
change those bylaws.
Yeah, and we started theconversation by asking everybody
where were they in 2003?
When the bylaws were written 20years ago?
What were people doing?
Most people were still in highschool or in their first jobs,
and so it gave some context tooh, we're free, things are
(35:54):
different and we can dosomething different.
So I thought it was a reallyexciting time, and so do we want
to talk a little bit about whatcame out of it, because I think
, okay, so yeah, when you aboutit, like, it was really four
hours where a lot of thingsturned around.
So one of them was we realized,or the decision was made, that,
(36:16):
you know, having a board chairor president and a treasurer and
a secretary was really kind ofnot really you like, not really
the SAA and not reallyrelationship.
Yeah, and what was moreimportant was who was
responsible for sharinginformation, not who was
(36:38):
responsible for being in charge,but who was responsible for
making sure everybody waslearning what they needed to
learn.
So it was genius.
So, instead of a president, younow have a board liaison, which
is the same wonderful person,daniel, but that role was
described in the bylaws as beingsomeone who shares information
(36:58):
from the executive director tothe board and from the board
back to the executive director.
Yeah, main point ofcommunication, because yeah, you
don't want everybody to be onthe email distribution list or
everybody to be on Slack Likeyou do.
It's to make it work better andto facilitate the relationship,
right.
Yeah, and so it made that job,and we went into a lot of detail
(37:23):
of what that job exactly was.
Yeah, that was also reallybeautiful, because I think one
of the things we learned aboutbeing on a board is, unless it's
clear what you're doing there,it's really annoying.
Yeah, and it needs to be clear.
What am I being like?
I'm here at the table.
I'm here with goodwill, I'mhere with good intention.
What do you need me to do?
Yeah, and then to put it in thebylaws.
I think was quite beautiful.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
Because I do think that that was something kind of
universal that we heard from thepeople we talked to who had
been on boards.
A lot of people didn't knowwhat they were supposed to do,
and I can you know, and that'strue especially if you're new to
a board or you're not.
Yeah, If it's not laid outclearly, how do you know?
Speaker 2 (38:01):
You're guessing or you're making it up, and then
you're making your own lifecomplicated and other people's
lives complicated, right, and itjust becomes a very frustrating
exercise.
So we needed to make it clearso that people and not like
tight right, so that people areordered on, but make it clear
why people are there and whatthese roles are meant to be.
(38:23):
And the other big change that Ithought was beautiful was,
instead of having a treasurerbecause most of us don't really
like talking about money orthinking about money and
generally on boards you end uphaving one person who's got some
background in money or is anaccountant, and everyone goes,
oh, they'll decide.
Well, no, actually, if we're ona board, we're in this together
, everybody has a voice, and sohow can we make that possible?
(38:48):
And so this brilliant decisioncame forward to have a financial
liaison, so a personresponsible for explaining
what's happening financially,and to be a supportive person to
the executive director and tobe a supportive person to the
other people on the board, so noone kind of clamps down and
goes, oh I don't know, you knowlike, because that's how I would
(39:09):
feel on a board, and to have afriend that's going to explain
all that financial stuff.
Yeah, not that that one person'sresponsible, because you have
an annual audit.
Yeah, and I think the otherthing that happened the bylaws
was there were a couple adecision made about when
financial changes need to cometo the board so that you don't
have to guess anymore and theboard doesn't have to guess.
(39:29):
So it reduced some of theguessing around finances, but it
also made it a more supportiveenvironment, because I think we
heard when people don't joinboards, it's because they don't
know what their job is andthey're afraid of like, oh, I
won't understand the budget.
Yeah, so we had to deal withthat in a relationship based way
(39:49):
.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
Yeah, and I think the finance part of being on a
board is sometimes for peopleyou know, maybe one of the most
intimidating or one of the mostscary aspects about it, because
you know technically there is aliability.
It because you know technicallythere is a liability, and so I
think you know, introducing kindof this financial liaison
(40:10):
position and reframing it from atreasurer position where that
you know it's more traditionallyjust the one person kind of
carrying the weight and theburden of that, I think
reframing that to be a morecollective process, that kind of
brings everybody along on acommon understanding.
It kind of demystifies it a bitbut also eliminates or
mitigates some risk.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Absolutely, because that's the whole point of having
a group of people around thetable with different viewpoints
is to have different voices thatcan say, hey, I see this, and
that's how you manage risk andalso see opportunities right.
So making that conversationavailable for everybody I think
was really significant.
(40:51):
And people aren't wrong to beconcerned about money.
I mean, we're in the artssector.
Arts organizations have moneyissues and arts organizations
have challenges and risks aroundfinances and nonprofits have
big risks and we see it.
And so board members who arenervous about money aren't wrong
(41:14):
, because there is a bigresponsibility to keep the
organization going and keep itliquid and have the resources
that you need.
So I think this change isn'tkind of a little dream world.
It addresses the reality thatyou need to have a good
financial plan as a board andany nonprofit yeah for sure yeah
(41:35):
, the yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
So then we?
What were the other majorchanges?
We have the intersectionalrepresentation.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
And then I think also the interest.
That was a big one.
And then I mean there's simplethings too, like the decision,
like we still have notes takenand we still have someone
facilitate the board meeting,but that's not necessarily
someone at the board table,right?
Because those two things take uptime and energy.
So if it's someone on the boardtaking notes and someone on the
(42:05):
board sharing the meeting,they're not actually
participating in theconversation.
So the board now has thefreedom to invite or pay someone
to come and do those two jobs.
Yeah, they have to be done Likesomeone needs to do that, like
you can't have.
It's not a free for all.
Yeah, but it doesn't have to besomebody who's a member of the
(42:26):
board.
And then the other major changethat was so exciting was about
the endeavor tointersectionality, and that's
written in the bylaws.
So that's written in thefoundational documents of the
SAA.
Do you want to talk about howthat happened?
Speaker 3 (42:39):
Yeah, so that was probably one of the more
in-depth and challengingconversations, I think, because
there is a lot to a conversationlike that and you know we were
interested in articulating andcapturing some way in the bylaws
of talking about how we do wanta diverse board, we want
(43:11):
historically underrepresentedfolks at the table participating
with us and we want to entrenchthat some way for the future,
for the future of theorganization to be able to say
you know, this is something thatis foundational to our values
as an organization movingforward.
And so we started talking aboutwhat does that look like
(43:35):
without it tokenizing people?
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Absolutely.
Which is a huge problem, whichis a huge problem, and that's
one of the things we heard inthe early conversations.
Right, and asking people ontothe board and then burdening
them with responsibilities tospeak on behalf of which is
completely illegitimate yeah,anyway, but you're completely
right about that.
And then I'm going to tell youhow it actually happened.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Because one board member just started talking and
I wrote down what he said andthat's what turned into the
bylaw.
Yeah, because he had it soclear in his mind what needed to
be in the bylaws and as he wastalking, everybody was like,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
So once we all realized, oronce you all realized that
(44:21):
that's what you wanted, and onemember just started speaking the
truth, then it was really easy.
I was fascinated and when youlook at the bylaw now that was
passed in the AGM, it's almostword for word what that board
member had to share.
And there were some adjustmentsbased on some words and some
(44:42):
terms that the SA was usingalready, but not a lot of
changes.
Speaker 3 (44:47):
I don't think I actually realized that, oh yeah
absolutely Like it was.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
That change probably took 17 minutes yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
And it's huge.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
And it's a huge change.
Now there was all the workahead of that yeah, to have the
environment and whateverhappened, so that that board
member felt free to speak likethat.
But really it was 17 minutesthat made a really foundational
change.
And I think the word endeavorlike the term endeavor to
(45:18):
intersectionality is beautiful,because the word endeavor is
we're in this together.
This is what it means to me.
We're all in this together,we're making our best efforts,
we're going to put energy intoit too.
It's not just work, yeah, andbecause goal can like, can come,
sometimes create pressure, orendeavor to me seemed to be an
active word about here's wherewe're headed, yeah, and it said
(45:43):
we're going to endeavor to 50%intersectionality Again made it
really clear what that means.
And then I think what happenedwas you followed it up with
coming up with just a practicalpolicy of checking in once a
year and saying, okay, who is onthe?
board.
How are we doing with ourendeavor to intersectionality
(46:04):
and you can share how wellyou're doing.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
Yeah, we're.
I mean, you know we'rebasically we're meeting and
exceeding our endeavor.
So it's great.
I think the previous year, thefirst that we kind of talked
about this we were at, you know,62% intersectional
representation on the board andkind of how practically we're
(46:27):
doing that and checking in aboutthat is that we have a board
member intake form online form,which I acknowledge may not suit
everyone's needs, but we talkabout that.
And yeah, basically there's avoluntary self-declaration that
board members can or, if theychoose not to, they don't have
to, but they can fill out totalk about if they identify with
(46:51):
any of the areas that we wantrepresentation from on the board
, and we can then take thatinformation and use it to talk
about who's on our board and tosee if we're meeting this goal,
this endeavor that we've set out.
And yeah, I guess that might bea really good segue to talk
about what happened at our 2023AGM and kind of nominations
(47:16):
process, because that was it wassomething I was not expecting.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Okay, well then, I'm going to, I'm going to turn the
table and now.
I'm going to interview you.
What happened with the 2023 AGMnominations process?
Yeah, because you'd posted onyour website a call for people
to you know nominations andinvited people to join the board
.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
Yeah, like we had you know kind of as a board, maybe
more traditionally does.
We had you know people kind ofthat we had talked to, that were
kind of lined up, that you knowshoulder tapping essentially.
Exactly who, who, who, yeah,who might come and join our
little gang, right, yeah, whomight join us?
(48:00):
And we had people who were kindof, you know, agreeing in
principle to put their namesforward and that sort of thing,
that those were the people thatwould come forward.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
And that's pretty normal.
Yeah, you know most nonprofitsand most nonprofit boards go out
and recruit people to be on theboard.
Yeah, from shoulder tapping toarm twisting.
Yeah, right, for real.
Yeah, for real, because you'relike, ah, please.
Right, you're like, ah, please.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
Right, so it's a stressful position to be in.
It's normally.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
Normally it is and that's sort of common practice
for people to.
You know people on the board togo and find other people to be
on the board.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
So I just explained that background Right.
Yeah, what kind of shockinglyended up happening is that we
had quite a few more selfnominations just from the form,
just from the call out that wehad put into the community, and
we ended up with we.
I was a little bit nervousbecause I thought we were going
to have to have an election andI didn't want to have an elect.
(48:53):
I mean, elections are great,let's have elections in in board
, in board meetings and AGMs.
I think that's, you know,that's a good thing.
But it was just such a kind ofshift from, you know, really
kind of trying to get people toparticipate and engage to then
having like a full board wherewe might have an election to
like what are we doing?
So, um, yeah, we had a reallygreat group of people put their
(49:14):
name forward who wereenthusiastic about wanting to be
on the SAA board and to be apart of what what's happening at
the SAA, and so, yeah, we wentfrom a board of eight people I
think we had two people leave atthe AGM and we're up to our
full complement.
We have 12 amazing boardmembers Fantastic, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
Fantastic.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
Yeah, and that's been , yeah, a real honor to have
that, to have those peopledecide that's where they want to
spend their valuable time.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
Absolutely, and their energy and their artistic
practice.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:54):
Yeah, it's been great and we're looking forward to
another exciting board retreat.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Yeah, that's coming up soon, beginning of April, so
yeah, I'm looking forward tothat too, and seeing what
happens in 17 minutes or longerRight, so yeah.
I guess we'll see, and it is abeautiful thing to have people
say I want to join your party, Iwant to come, I want to be part
of this.
Yeah, I think it's reallyexciting and a fully stocked
board is a beautiful thing.
(50:20):
Yeah, so yeah that's great.
Speaker 3 (50:22):
I think it'll serve the SAA well in the years to
come.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
And again fulfills what the SAA is all about, is
speaking on behalf of artistsand encouraging artists, and so
having a full board of artistswho can speak and who can share
their views and their thoughtsand their voices, I think is
essential, yeah, yeah, reallyessential, so great, yeah.
One of the things that I thinkis really important about this
(50:49):
work and about the SAA isoffering this experience to
other nonprofits and othermember organizations of the SAA.
Eventually, what started likewhat's really important about
this whole process is it'sfocused on doing less and more
meaningful work, and I thinkevery arts organization has a
(51:13):
lot of work, yeah, and when youcan focus on the most meaningful
part of it and doing less ofthe not meaningful part of it is
a huge relief.
Like even the look on your faceis like oh yeah.
So it almost seems to me thatthis process was about the SAA,
but it's also about the SAAmembership, and what I want to
(51:37):
make sure is that any SAA member, anybody in the arts
organizations of Saskatchewan ornonprofits in Saskatchewan, if
you want to understand a bitmore about what we did and how
we did it, how this process wasbased on relationship and
responsiveness and listening andgot the SAA to a point where
(51:58):
they have a governance structurethat actually embodies who they
are and what they need to beaccomplishing with the least
amount of hassle and the leastamount of boredom.
We'd be happy to share it, andI think that's really, really
important.
I think for me it's been anhonor and a privilege to work
with the SAA and, like some ofthe most exciting work of my
(52:19):
life, to be involved in thisprocess, and if it just stops
here, I think that would be kindof sad because I think there's
a lot for other organizations tolearn from.
So we've toyed around having atoolkit or, you know, doing this
podcast as part of sharing thestory, but I think it's really
important.
If anybody listening or hearingabout this work wants some help
(52:39):
in getting started themselves,needs a little bit of guidance,
please reach out to the SAA.
Yeah, for sure, and I'm happyto help too.
This kind of new way of lookingat governance that's relational
, that's not based on hierarchy,that's not based on old,
outdated models that were copiedfrom somebody else's world Just
(53:02):
because it's the way it'salways been done.
That's, yeah, yeah, breakingdown, yeah, breaking down the
just the way it's always beendone, is my idea of fun.
So, yeah, we'd be really happyto help other organizations with
this, and I don't know exactlywhat that looks like yet.
But again, this whole processstarted because we were
responsive to someone saying wewant you to think about this, so
(53:23):
let's put it back on yourmembership and say, hey, let us
know what you need from us.
Speaker 3 (53:27):
Yeah, and there's some you know it's definitely
not just the SAA, not just usdoing this kind of work.
There's really amazing peoplehere in our own province that
are doing some foundational workaround this.
We've got like AKA Artist RunCenter, like amazing.
You know, we can all definitelywe'll put some links.
There's some good writtenpieces about the changes they've
(53:50):
made in their governance andworking as a collective doing
really great work.
Yvette Nolan, who we invitedthere's a panel discussion that
we held as a part of our springgathering last year in May that
talks about this and you knowabout some of the work it brings
together Some.
Aaron Kang from the OntarioNonprofit Network the Ontario
(54:11):
Nonprofit Network has a wholeinitiative called Reimagining
Governance that we're kind of,you know, connected to them now
through that, and so it's reallya conversation that's bubbling
up from many different places inour own province, outside of
our province and we're justhappy to is a huge piece of
building the SAA's profilenationally.
Speaker 2 (54:47):
And all of that contributes to you being able to
advocate for the membership andfor the arts ecology in
Saskatchewan, because now theOntario Nonprofit Network is
like oh who's?
The Saskatchewan Arts Alliance,and that connects you with a
whole new group of people.
And so I think this work hasimplications much farther than
(55:09):
Saskatchewan and much fartherthan just getting your own house
in order and updating 20 yearold bylaws.
It's actually about, again,about new relationships and
about building your ability toadvocate at a national level and
even at a provincial level.
So, anyway, it's super excitingin lots of ways, and I'm sure
we'll continue to see ways thatthis work is going to benefit
(55:32):
the SAA and you, and maybe evenme, going forward.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
Who knows?
Speaker 2 (55:37):
And I firmly believe that projects that benefit
everyone involved are the wayforward, and we live in a world
where it's far too much about oh, what do I get Like, what's you
know?
Oh good, I got something andthey didn't.
And that'll never go away.
(56:00):
I don't think that'll go away,but I think it's really exciting
to be involved, um with you andwith the membership and the
board, in projects that areabsolutely about what's best for
everybody and best for yourmoney and your effort and your
time, but also our hearts andyou like this.
(56:21):
This is a project that'slightened people's hearts.
Certainly it's lightened mine,and I think that's just good
work and I think that's the workof good art.
Speaker 3 (56:32):
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah, thanks for a greatconversation.
Speaker 2 (56:36):
Thank you, Em.
Thanks for inviting me in lotsof ways.
Speaker 1 (56:40):
The next episode of Arts Everywhere is coming soon,
so keep checking theSaskatchewan Arts Alliance
website and their social mediapages for more information and
if you're listening to thepodcast through your favorite
podcasting app, don't forget tohit the subscribe button so you
don't miss a single episode.
The Arts Everywhere theme musicis composed by Saskatchewan
(57:01):
musician Patrick Moon Bird,dancing to lo-fi from his album
entitled 2021.
Check out the show notes forlinks to Patrick's music.
The Saskatchewan Arts Alliancewould like to thank our funders,
Sask Culture and Sask Arts,both of whom benefit from
lottery ticket sales throughSask Lotteries Proceeds from
(57:21):
Sask Lotteries fund culturalorganizations all across the
province, and we wouldn't beable to do the work we do
without your support.
See you next time.
Your collective voice for the arts across
Saskatchewan.
This is Arts Everywhere theSaskatchewan Arts Alliance
podcast.
Her mother, charlotte, was acreative in her own right.
(00:29):
Her dad, john, was a kookyvisionary.
Together, they gave thisepisode's guest the gift of
practicality.
So what has Roberta Cross donewith this gift?
Political and internationaldegrees, a diplomat with the
federal government for 11 years,live in Cuba and Spain and,
(00:49):
while you're there, earn abusiness degree and then
eventually come back toSaskatchewan, where you get to
offer insight and hands-onmediation and guidance.
And the Saskatchewan ArtsAlliance has been the
beneficiary of Roberta's gifts.
Roberta has amazing listeningskills and with those skills,
she inspires us all to imaginesomething new and then figure
(01:14):
out the practical.
Roberta and M Ironstar discusshow the Saskatchewan Arts
Alliance found a new vision ofgovernance and, with Roberta as
a facilitator, exceedexpectations of what that looks
like today.
If you have a clear picture,not based on the same old same
old, but based on what could bechange can come quickly.
(01:37):
This episode celebrates justhow far the Saskatchewan Arts
(02:02):
Alliance has come in itsgovernance.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Okay, cool Podcast time, podcast time.
Let's see, I feel like we'vebeen trying to do this for a
while, I know.
Yeah, hi, roberta.
Hey, so nice to be talking toyou.
Yeah, really really good tohave you as a guest on the
podcast.
And yeah, I was trying to kindof thinking back on my drive
over here.
I think it's probably maybegetting close to about two years
since we met.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
I think so, I think so, and it was right at the tail
end of COVID.
And yeah, I think we talked oremailed and then we actually saw
each other at Lugo, and it waslike oh my gosh, yeah, that's
right there was this moment?
Where is it okay to hug?
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Can we hug?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
each other.
And I think we did.
I remember that really well.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Yeah, yeah, time flies.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
I know, and it's been a beautiful time, yeah, yeah, a
really rich time, so I'mgrateful for it.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
And I'm happy to be able to talk about it.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Happy to be here in Saskatoonon Treaty 6.
It's you know I'm back andforth quite a bit these days and
it's always great to get tospend some time in Saskatoon.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
And so we're here at my house.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
And specifically, this house is on the land of the
Round Prairie Métis communitywho lived in this neighborhood.
Like now it's a neighborhood,but on this land up until the
50s.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Amazing.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yeah, so they actually had their homes, like
what is now a couple blocks fromhere.
Yeah, and this was likeforaging and pasturing area.
Wow, that's good to know.
Yeah, I think when you can getto know exactly who you're
grateful to and for for whereyou live, it's a really powerful
experience.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
I like to share that, thank you.
So for the folks listening outthere maybe just want to give a
little bit of an introduction toyourself and, kind of, maybe we
can get into why we're chatting, right, okay?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
The big picture, the embarrassing big picture.
Okay, well, I grew up inSaskatoon.
My parents were John andCharlotte Cross, and I only say
that because my Cree friendshave taught me how to make an
introduction like that and thatmy family and my background does
matter like that and that myfamily and my background does
(04:08):
matter.
And my mother was a verypractical person, very
intelligent woman, veryoutspoken, very funny, and my
dad was a real sort of visionary, a little kooky but had, like
big visions, and so I'm alwaysgrateful to them because I feel
that they've given me like thisweird mix of seeing the big
picture, like in being reallycreative but also like being
really practical, of like howare we going to get there?
(04:29):
And I think, when we can lookback at our ancestors and say,
wow, I inherited something goodand also leave behind the stuff
you don't need anymore, right, Ithink it's good.
So that's kind of.
That's sort of what I bringinto the world Other things too.
And so I did a politicalstudies degree, an international
studies degree, here at theUniversity of Saskatchewan, and
(04:50):
then I joined the federalgovernment.
I was a diplomat Most peopledon't know what that is and I
did it because I thought there'dbe a lot of parties and dancing
and there were but there wasalso a lot of really important
work in trying to understandpeople of different cultures,
people who speak differentlanguages, people have different
points of view, and then tryingto help explain what they need
(05:10):
or want to other people who maynot normally be in contact with
them or understand them.
I lived in Spain and I wasreally, really fortunate.
It was a good career and I meta lot of fascinating people and
I, yeah, and it was a reallycreative profession and a
(05:31):
difficult one too, but I'mgrateful to have had it, and I
did manage to spend a lot oftime with politicians and in
political offices at a veryyoung age like I was 23, and
sitting in a minister's officeand basically biting my nails,
wondering what the hell am Idoing here.
So I learned quite a bit abouthow government works and how the
(05:51):
letters get written and how thedecisions get made, because I
was part of that for a long time.
So, and then that was a greatcareer, but then I decided I'd
rather work for myself, so I dida business degree in Spain and
then ended up coming back toCanada.
I led a non-profit for a whileand then my mom felt sick and
(06:12):
she was here in Saskatoon and Iwanted to be with her.
So I came home and mostly havebeen doing projects like this
one, this beautiful one thatwe've been working on, as a
person who's self-employed, andso I've done a lot of mediation
and facilitation and writing,and you know, when people have
(06:32):
changes or challenges orconflicts, even I kind of like
to come in and sort of say, hey,you know, could we see this
differently, could you see a newperspective?
You know, how could this bedifferent?
And again going back to myparents, like imagining
something new but also figuringout the practical part, so
anyway, so that's kind oflong-winded but, that's great.
That's my piece.
(06:52):
Yeah, and I also, here inSaskatchewan, have a special
relationship with sometraditional land which I hold
for reconciliation.
So the company I have, which iscalled Grow Solutions, is
technically a social enterprisebecause all the profits go to
support that land and thatproject and protecting and
(07:12):
restoring that land on the SouthSaskatchewan River Amazing.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Yeah.
So yeah, we were kind of theway our circles intertwined was
at the time Tara Jansen, who wasat the Ramey and also on the
Saskatchewan Arts Alliance board, right when I had kind of first
started at the Arts Alliancearound HR, because as a new
(07:47):
executive director at the time Iwas feeling kind of completely
lost around around what to dowith, uh, you know, job
description development andmaking sure to get it right.
Um, and so she introduced usand that was kind of, I think,
one of our, our first projectsworking together after we had
gotten a increase in operationalfunding at the Arts Alliance to
be able to figure out what thisjob of research lead was going
(08:09):
to look like.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Absolutely right.
Yeah, and I mean Tara and Ihave known each other a long
time, so it's always nice to beintroduced, because then it's
based on relationship and that'swhat matters to me most Like
it's based on relationship andthat's what matters to me most.
And what I'm always interestedin is not like, like, what do
you really want to do?
(08:31):
I mean, I was so curious aboutyou as a person, as a
professional, in this new role.
Like it was so interesting tome to think and imagine what you
were going to do with thisbudget and how you were going to
envision the this budget andhow you were going to envision
the organization growing and howit was going to support you.
So for me, it was so excitingto have those conversations with
(08:53):
you and listen to you, yeah,and then be able to reflect back
to you oh well, I hear yougoing in this direction, or what
if we tried this?
And so, really, we just had anextended, in-depth conversation
about what does the SAA need andwith what you have now, and
like what you needed to reallythrive and enjoy this work and
(09:13):
your own skills, which are likehefty and wonderful, you know
what was really going to fly.
And so I was thrilled by thatand I mean I'm really thrilled
where you've taken it.
So I was thrilled by that and Imean I'm really thrilled where
you've taken it and I think theSAA to have an in-house
full-time researcher is sosignificant.
Focused on Saskatchewan,focused on the arts ecology here
(09:36):
, dedicated to really the goalsand the purpose of the SAA, and
I think it's tremendous and Ithink Arianna's, you know I mean
a year in like it's amazingwhat's happening and I'm really
proud to have been part of thoseconversations early on.
And like just hearing you know,okay, what could work right,
(09:56):
like to almost play a little bitand be a little artistic with
how could this work?
And even writing the jobdescription was an artistic
project.
Project like what do we want tosay and how do we want to talk
about it yeah, how to?
Speaker 3 (10:07):
how to set the tone for what we want, how we want to
work right?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
yeah, who do we invite in right?
Yeah like I mean, maybe thatgoes back to being a diplomat
and organizing a lot of parties.
But, yeah, a lot of situationslike how do we make this
welcoming for people?
How do we invite someone in?
That's really going to thriveand enjoy this environment right
(10:32):
.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
So, yeah, I think I was.
Actually.
We had a staff meeting thismorning and I think now, having
this conversation, justreflecting back on Arianna, and
having the research leadposition, I think one of the
most exciting things about it isthe ability to be responsive.
That in previous you knowiterations of research at the
Arts Alliance, it was alwaysvery focused because it was
based around projects, projectfunding, specific objectives
with different you knowinstitutions, which is great.
(10:55):
It's its own thing, you know.
No, no shade to that at all.
But what's been, I think what'sreally unique now is that we
have the ability to respond toarising needs from the community
, from the funders, fromgovernment, that we're not
locked into something specificnecessarily, even though there's
long-term priorities and thatsort of thing that we can.
(11:15):
Now the economic impact report,for example.
That wasn't really we reallywanted to do it, but we were
able to kind of shift thingsaround and reprioritize and say
this is important.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Now it's about responsiveness, yeah, and I
would even say having afull-time, permanent research
lead means, then, that Jessicacan focus on listening to the
membership and hearing what theyhave to say and being able to
(11:48):
respond to what they're askingfor, because a lot of what's
beautiful about what's happeningwith the SAA right now is that
it's responsive to the needs ofthe membership.
It's responsive to thegovernment's needs for
information and knowledge tomake good decisions, and so, by
having the in-house researchstrength means that you can
(12:09):
focus your outreach and yourcommunications on your
membership and hearing and thensaying, okay, we heard you,
here's what we have in response,and I think that's an exciting
change because, you're right,collaborative research is
gorgeous, but being able torespond to your membership is
fundamental, and it'sessentially who you are.
You're a membership driven, notdriven, I mean, you're a
(12:31):
membership organization, andunless that's a direct,
multi-directional conversationwith your membership, it gets a
little boring.
Yeah, for real.
Yeah, so, and I just want tosay jessica like brings so much
to the table too.
Yeah, and that was an excitingpart of the conversation early
on is how many people she knowsand the depth of her knowledge
(12:52):
about who's who in this province.
Yeah, so, and to see her havethe time and space to really
flourish with that knowledge.
Yeah, I think it's an excitingthing too.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Yeah, with that knowledge, I think is an
exciting thing too.
Yeah, and that was another partof the work that we started off
with in bringing the digitalcommunications collaborative
position and Tia, who you willhave heard of in a previous
episode.
So, yeah, really it's been justthe growth of the capacity and
the team at the SAA and kind ofbuilding on foundations.
(13:23):
It's been, it's been reallyexciting and it's it's um, so
heartening, I think, to kind ofwatch it form and, and you know,
the longer we work together,it's yeah, I think, I think
we're it's I couldn't ask for abetter team.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
No, you really couldn't.
It's fantastic, right, and it'salways wonderful to have
someone who stands a little bitoutside of your life, in your
circle, who has a little bitmore experience, and can just
say, hmm, what about this?
Yeah, hmm, what about that?
I heard you say such and suchthree weeks ago, and to just
remind us where we're at,because when you're starting
(14:02):
something new, find us wherewe're at, because when you're
starting something new and beingbrave as you have, it gets a
little disorienting sometimes,and I think it's a really
powerful human experience tohave someone else just say hey,
I see you and here's the thingsI see you doing, and let's keep
going.
So that's how I kind of seethis unfolding.
(14:23):
Again, I find consultants thatcome in and go oh, I have the
answer to be really offensivebecause they don't like.
Everybody knows their ownbusiness and everybody knows
their own life, and so I justenjoy being welcomed in to sort
of observe and say, hey, whatabout this?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Yeah, and I think, um , you know, as an artist and as
someone who, I think, operatesin a visual and auditory space a
lot of the time, I found it's areally interesting way of
working, to be working throughconversation.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Absolutely yeah, and we also had visual moments, do
you remember?
Yeah?
There was a final moment wherewe were like okay, what does the
research lead need to look like?
And it dawned on me to ask youcould you draw a picture, could
you make a visual of what thisperson needs to be and needs to
do?
And and bam that that coalescedthe whole story.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Yeah, if I could find it, maybe we'll try to find a
way to put it into the shownotes, because it's kind of fun
it was amazing, it was reallyreally great.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah, so, yeah, and I I think it's true like, as
artists, if we can't put ourthoughts and our projects into
our medium, then we need tospend some more time thinking
about them.
Yeah and um.
So when you were able toproduce that work of art in such
a short period of time, it wasclear to me that you knew
exactly and felt exactly whatthe right way forward was.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
So that was a great moment.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah, although I have to say I do use that visual
technique with, like more sortof corporate clients and you
wouldn't believe the looks ontheir faces when I get out the
pencil, crayons and the pastelsand I'm like, okay, we're going
to draw what the final result ofthis project is going to be and
everyone's like.
But then I keep like, I keepthose pictures and.
(16:10):
I pull them out, like during theprocess, and I remind people
visually of what they imagined.
And it is amazing the resultsof that and those people with
the kind of look on their facesstart to think oh no, there is
some consistency here.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Yeah, so it's in, everybody it is.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
And it transcends divisions.
Yeah, so when you're in asituation where you're trying to
determine an outcome andthere's some conflict or some
challenge, if you can look atthe image of it, the image of
where you need to be at the end,you don't get so tangled up in
the words or your own hang-upsor how you feel you need to be
(16:54):
right or how you're disagreeingwith the other person.
You can actually just getabsorbed in the shape and the
color and what you rememberedthat you'd visualized.
Right, so yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
So I think a lot of the kind of meat and potatoes
about what we want to talk abouttoday is around kind of the
next kind of piece or chunk ofwork of initiative that we did
together, work of initiativethat we did together and that
(17:29):
was around, I would say,reimagining what governance at
the SAA looks like, which wasreally exciting, I think,
probably one of the mostexciting things that's happened
at the SAA since I've been therefor the what?
two and a half years orsomething and this was something
that was brought forward as apriority by the current by Tara,
(17:52):
Tara and Alejandro and peopleon the board at the time.
Yeah, and it was needed.
It was definitely a neededpiece of work in order to, I
think, make sure that the SAAwas the organization that it
needed to be for the artscommunity.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
And you know, I think a lot of people think, oh,
governance, that's boring.
Right, and it can be boring,but if you see it as how do we
relate to each other and how dowe make decisions and how do we
make good decisions together?
And then also like imagininghow you want to make decisions
(18:33):
together, because I think a lotof governance is like they say
it has to be like this, yeah,and when we started these
conversations, there were a lotof people saying, well, you
can't pay honorariums, you'vegot to have this and you have to
do that.
Saying, well, you can't payhonorariums and you've got to
have this and you have to dothat.
And you can probably tell bynow I'm the kind of person where
you say that to me.
I'm like, oh really.
(18:56):
So when we dug into it, therewere actually a lot of examples
of people not doing those thingsand those were just old habits
that had come from buildingnonprofit boards based on a copy
of corporate boards in the 70sand it had never been updated.
And people just get into thathabit and then they think that's
how it has to be.
So I mean, one of the giftsagain of having lived overseas
and lived in other cultures isI'm always like well, does it
(19:18):
really have to be like that?
So and again, I'm going to goback to how like important
responsiveness is and how this,like the whole process, has been
about relationship, becauseTara Jansen and Alejandro Romero
were on the board and they werelike Alejandro wasn't quite
there yet.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Oh, wasn't he Not quite?
Oh, that's right too, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
That's right too.
Yeah, so, but I have to say hisname because he played a
significant part very quickly,and Tara's point was I'd like us
to pay honorariums to boardmembers to reflect the fact that
artists are working hard.
We have to respect artists andtheir time.
We're an organization that'sabout valuing artists, and
(20:03):
corporate boards pay people tobe on boards and we're taking
people's time and we're takingpeople's effort.
Why wouldn't we do that?
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
So I think we're, if I remember correctly, where this
started is.
That came to you and then westarted working together and
then the board passed like akind of a preliminary sort of
we're willing to look athonorariums and a few other
changes and gave you the mandateto go forward and start to
explore some of these ideas andsee how they could change and
(20:34):
improve the work of the board.
Yeah, so then I joined you andthen we interviewed eight people
.
Yeah, and there's some reallyfascinating people we talked to.
Yeah, we talked to people who'dbeen on the board and who'd
left and they were really, andall these interviews were
anonymous so that people couldbe frank, right, and people
talked about, you know, what hadbeen challenging and what
hadn't worked for them.
We talked to some of thethought leaders in this province
(20:56):
and we have some real powerfulpeople, right.
So people thinking aboutnonprofit governance and arts
governance and arts governancewe talked about to some people
who are doing thought leadershipin different areas of
accessibility and welcoming andmaking sure that all kinds of
people are present at the boardtable, because really the goal
(21:18):
was to have a board thatabsolutely reflects your
membership and your membershipis wonderful.
Your membership and yourmembership is whoa like
wonderful and all from allcorners and representing all
kinds of people.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
So the epitome of intersectionality right so, um,
we came back with a report,right, yeah, so we presented
that report and um I I have tosay, though, those conversations
were fascinating yeah, theywere really they were.
That was a really um, importantpart of kind of how we came to
(21:57):
you know the report and andgetting to kind of build those
connections and spend that timewith those folks was like really
I learned so much.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I did too.
Yeah, I did too, and I learneda lot from you and I learned a
lot from every person that spoke.
Yeah, and again it like for me,it just really opened my
thinking about what could happenhere and what are people
thinking about and how could wemake that practical.
How can we actually put that towork?
Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,it was fun and I really enjoyed
(22:30):
that.
Like we did it together, likewe did those interviews together
, and I took, like I did,transcription so we had people's
direct quotes, because I reallybelieve in that.
Like you have to listen toexactly what people are saying,
and I think I asked thequestions and you had the
freedom to listen and askadditional questions.
So it was also good because wewere both there to really listen
(22:53):
to the people who were sharing,and I thought that was
respectful.
And then the other respectfulpart was we gave everybody an
honorarium for their time.
We weren't like, oh, can you dothis for me?
No we were like you havesomething to say, we need to
hear it and we want to sharewith you, so I felt that that
was an important part of theprocess too.
Yeah, set the groundwork, yeahright, yeah Well, and then right
(23:14):
.
And then it was like well,that's an easy sidestep to say
well, board members needhonorariums too.
And we found that there areother organizations paying
honorariums to non-profit boardmembers.
Yeah, yeah, and we also foundthere was no rule against it.
Yeah, even though people thinkthere is one, there isn't one
Technically, no, no.
And I will never forget thelook on the lawyer's face when
(23:36):
we shared the bylaws with himeventually, and he just looked
completely perplexed but hecouldn't find anything wrong,
like he'd never seen what theSAA's new bylaws looked like.
He looked completely perplexedand yet sort of encouraged and
you used the word heartened LikeI wonder if he went home
thinking, wow, things could bedifferent.
So yeah, so we.
(23:58):
So I think what happened was wepresented that report,
Everybody on the board gave itsome consideration, and one of
those changes happened rightaway, which was the honorarium,
introducing an honorarium.
Do you want to explain how thatworks?
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Yeah, so we were able .
So one of the recommendationsthat came out of the report was
supported.
Kind of what we wanted to do andwhat we expected going in was
that, you know, we wanted tovalue people's time with an
honorarium, and so we proposed abylaw amendment at our 2022 AGM
(24:36):
.
Basically, that would allow forthat to occur, so we could give
board members honorariumpayments for the meetings that
they attend, members honorariumpayments for the meetings that
they attend, and basically whatended up happening is this was a
bylaw amendment in that way,but it's related to a policy, so
it's related to a board memberhonorarium and expenses policy
(24:59):
that was also approved at thetime and it basically just
outlines the details about, youknow, the amount of the
honorarium, the you know thefrequency of when it's paid, how
it's processed, like all thekind of nuts and bolts about how
it works, and those aredefinitely like.
All of this information is onour website and we'll link to it
(25:21):
because we want to freely sharekind of all the work we've done
around this to help otherpeople if it's something that
they're considering as well.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Absolutely Right.
And sometimes you hear the wordpolicy and you think, oh right,
but it's basically just whatare we going to do, how are we
going to do it?
And it's written down so thatyou don't everybody knows it's
agreed, it's transparent andit's shareable, and then you
don't have to think about itevery time.
You know exactly what's goingto happen.
Yeah, so some of this was aboutwriting good, clear policies.
(25:52):
Like you know, the how-to list,like policies and procedures
are just your how-to list, anddoing it in a really like clear
writing kind of way.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Yeah, so yeah yeah, and I will say just for
transparency sake that, um, oneof the things with with the
honorariums is that if wesettled on an amount, the amount
we went with was, I believe,$155.
And that was through some otherorganizations that are doing
things like this and what otherboards pay and that sort of
(26:20):
thing, and it felt comfortable,like a comfortable amount to
start out with and that if thereare changes to that amount made
in the future, it has to bevoted on by the SAA membership.
So it's not just, you know, theboard that can decide to change
the amount of the honorarium.
It's something that the wholemembership needs to come
(26:42):
together and agree on.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah, and then I think the other thing that's
important too is that allowsboard members to give the
honorarium back or just notaccept the honorarium, and that
accommodates or adapts to thefact that some people work in
large organizations, maybe makeenough money that they feel that
they don't need the honorariumor that that's not how they want
(27:05):
to live their lives, and sothat they can, they have the
freedom to make that choice, andso I thought that was really
beautiful too, because thatresponds to the different kinds
of people that also are in yourmembership and now on your board
.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Yeah, and that really was.
You know, that was somethingthat we always wanted to include
but, you know, once it wasactually in practice, that was a
really interesting spinoff forme, because what I didn't
realize because I'm not anaccountant was when those went
back to the bookkeepers that wework with from the Admin Center
for Sport, culture andRecreation Shout out Admin
(27:41):
Center Yay, admin Center.
That.
Basically that when thosehonorariums are donated back to
the SAA, that those count on ourbooks as donations and so that
increases our self-generatedrevenue, even though it's not an
actual physical exchange ofcash we get to.
(28:01):
You know, it looks different onour books and that was
something that I had neveranticipated.
So it's a good benefit, youknow, benefit for us as an
organization as well, eventhough there's no exchange of
currency.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
And shout out to those people who support you.
Right and I think that's anotherpiece that underlies all of
this work right and everythingthat we've done together in this
whole phase in the SAA isfinding ways to do less and more
meaningful work right, and sohaving a good relationship with
the admin center, where theylook after things like this so
(28:35):
you're not pulling your hair outor missing opportunities like
that, I think, is reallyimportant because you're finding
ways forward to make your ownwork less difficult and that's a
model for other people if theychoose to go there right.
And other arts organizations orany other nonprofit that says,
oh, what's happening in theadmin center?
Maybe we'll use the admincenter right, Because the less
(28:58):
time you spend doing things thataren't contributing to your
real work, the more time youhave to do your real work right,
which is sometimes theequivalent of a bump in funding
because you're just not wastingyour time and resources on
things that aren't thatinteresting so anyway, sorry, I
kind of digressed, but I'm bigon stuff like that.
Right yeah, so great.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Yeah.
So that that was kind of thefirst phase and that was
something that was that wewanted to do immediately and we
felt that it was I hate thephrase, but it was low-hanging
fruit that we could take care ofright away and it was a change
we could make fast saying youknow, we've been doing this work
I think we maybe started in thespring kind of thing and that
was a change that we were ableto implement almost immediately
(29:43):
at the fall AGM.
So that felt really good.
I like a lot of the work Ifound at the SAA around advocacy
and things.
It moves really slow, so itfelt nice to do something fast.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah, exactly, but also sometimes it's kind of fun
to laugh at low hanging fruit,but it's also it's moving at the
speed of trust.
If you say you're going tothink about this and you talk to
a bunch of people and ask themwhat they think it's important
to do something to show themthat you're actually responding
(30:15):
to what they had to say.
I don't think there's anythingmore discouraging than someone
asking you for your time andyour thought and your you know
your consideration and then theygo away and they do nothing.
So parts of this work neededtime and other parts were like,
well, we can do this, let's doit.
And I think it helped generatemore trust in the process and
(30:36):
more comfort actually at theboard table and people were like
, oh, wow, look, we're doingstuff.
And oh, I got an honorarium,which is also good, but also
your membership at the AGM gotto see, oh, we're actually being
invited to do somethingsubstantive, yeah, and make a
significant change so I think itwas great.
I mean I, like, yeah, it'slow-hanging fruit, but it's also
like quite fruitful.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Sorry, yeah, probably , yeah, fruitful yeah and then I
think, uh, one of the other keyuh actions that were identified
in the report from ourconversations was that our
bylaws, policies, kind ofanything, any documents any to
(31:17):
do with governance, needed to bewritten in a simple, accessible
, understandable way, accessible, understandable way.
And then, you know, started tokind of go back and look at the
essays, bylaws that were inplace and it immediately became
clear that a conversation neededto happen around those bylaws,
(31:38):
for a couple of reasons.
One, they were old, they wereoutdated, they were from 2003,
which you know they hadn't beenlooked at in 20 years, which is,
I totally understand.
I understand a lot of timesthese policy and procedure
things.
They are easy to slip down tothe bottom of your list.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Well, and I mean in their defense, let me speak on
behalf of those poor little oldbylaws.
They were great.
Well they were reallyfoundational.
Whoever wrote them.
It was art because, likebringing together an umbrella
organization representing theentire sector was genius, and
the way that it was written wasvery beautiful, Plus your bylaws
(32:21):
.
You're not meant to change themvery often.
They're meant to be like thisis basically who we are.
This is it no-transcript.
(32:49):
I often found myself confused,oh yeah, and I wasn't always
certain either what was going on.
So it was almost like okay,let's take the time to figure
out what really is foundationaland stays the same and what
needs to change, and then whatneeds to just be written better.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, yeah, yeah, so, yeah, yeah.
And so then we about February2023, we had a great board
retreat in Saskatoon at theRamey and spent some time
together as a group, which wasawesome because it was kind of
one of the first times we werethe whole board was together in
(33:25):
person.
We do all of our meetingsthroughout the year over Zoom,
so just kind of having thatin-person introduction and being
in the same physical roomtogether was really great, and
we decided we were going totackle updating these bylaws.
But there was a lot of pre-workthat was done kind of before
that actual retreat weekend too.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Oh yeah, and I'm going to mention Alejandro
Romero again because by thistime he was on the board and I
don't think this is betraying aconfidence.
But he really encouraged us tolook at anti-oppression
approaches and indigenousapproaches around governance and
(34:10):
looking at new ways of shapinghow you make decisions.
And he was right.
And when we think about whatdoes it mean to be in a time of
reconciliation?
And how do you decolonize?
Because that's an active word,it's an active verb, and how do
we put that to work?
(34:30):
And in my experience and in myway of being in the world, it's
a boat relationship and it's aboat saying hmm, are we all
equal partners here?
And how can we have equalpartners at the table?
And how can we make sure thateverybody feels included and
involved?
(34:50):
And rather than you know who'sin charge and who's the
executive, yeah, so that waskind of the spirit that we
carried into that retreat.
Yeah, and we did do quite a bitof work ahead of time, because
you don't want to invite a bunchof people into a room and say
(35:11):
here's 30 pages of boringreading.
Can you do that Like we?
You know, I took the time andwe took the time to go through
it, divide it up into thesections that needed changing,
that needed discussion, and thenones that just needed up like
needed new language.
So we made it manageable.
But I think what was excitingabout being in the same room
(35:34):
together was that people startedto realize that they could
change those bylaws.
Yeah, and we started theconversation by asking everybody
where were they in 2003?
When the bylaws were written 20years ago?
What were people doing?
Most people were still in highschool or in their first jobs,
and so it gave some context tooh, we're free, things are
(35:54):
different and we can dosomething different.
So I thought it was a reallyexciting time, and so do we want
to talk a little bit about whatcame out of it, because I think
, okay, so yeah, when you aboutit, like, it was really four
hours where a lot of thingsturned around.
So one of them was we realized,or the decision was made, that,
(36:16):
you know, having a board chairor president and a treasurer and
a secretary was really kind ofnot really you like, not really
the SAA and not reallyrelationship.
Yeah, and what was moreimportant was who was
responsible for sharinginformation, not who was
(36:38):
responsible for being in charge,but who was responsible for
making sure everybody waslearning what they needed to
learn.
So it was genius.
So, instead of a president, younow have a board liaison, which
is the same wonderful person,daniel, but that role was
described in the bylaws as beingsomeone who shares information
(36:58):
from the executive director tothe board and from the board
back to the executive director.
Yeah, main point ofcommunication, because yeah, you
don't want everybody to be onthe email distribution list or
everybody to be on Slack Likeyou do.
It's to make it work better andto facilitate the relationship,
right.
Yeah, and so it made that job,and we went into a lot of detail
(37:23):
of what that job exactly was.
Yeah, that was also reallybeautiful, because I think one
of the things we learned aboutbeing on a board is, unless it's
clear what you're doing there,it's really annoying.
Yeah, and it needs to be clear.
What am I being like?
I'm here at the table.
I'm here with goodwill, I'mhere with good intention.
What do you need me to do?
Yeah, and then to put it in thebylaws.
I think was quite beautiful.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
Because I do think that that was something kind of
universal that we heard from thepeople we talked to who had
been on boards.
A lot of people didn't knowwhat they were supposed to do,
and I can you know, and that'strue especially if you're new to
a board or you're not.
Yeah, If it's not laid outclearly, how do you know?
Speaker 2 (38:01):
You're guessing or you're making it up, and then
you're making your own lifecomplicated and other people's
lives complicated, right, and itjust becomes a very frustrating
exercise.
So we needed to make it clearso that people and not like
tight right, so that people areordered on, but make it clear
why people are there and whatthese roles are meant to be.
(38:23):
And the other big change that Ithought was beautiful was,
instead of having a treasurerbecause most of us don't really
like talking about money orthinking about money and
generally on boards you end uphaving one person who's got some
background in money or is anaccountant, and everyone goes,
oh, they'll decide.
Well, no, actually, if we're ona board, we're in this together
, everybody has a voice, and sohow can we make that possible?
(38:48):
And so this brilliant decisioncame forward to have a financial
liaison, so a personresponsible for explaining
what's happening financially,and to be a supportive person to
the executive director and tobe a supportive person to the
other people on the board, so noone kind of clamps down and
goes, oh I don't know, you knowlike, because that's how I would
(39:09):
feel on a board, and to have afriend that's going to explain
all that financial stuff.
Yeah, not that that one person'sresponsible, because you have
an annual audit.
Yeah, and I think the otherthing that happened the bylaws
was there were a couple adecision made about when
financial changes need to cometo the board so that you don't
have to guess anymore and theboard doesn't have to guess.
(39:29):
So it reduced some of theguessing around finances, but it
also made it a more supportiveenvironment, because I think we
heard when people don't joinboards, it's because they don't
know what their job is andthey're afraid of like, oh, I
won't understand the budget.
Yeah, so we had to deal withthat in a relationship based way
(39:49):
.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
Yeah, and I think the finance part of being on a
board is sometimes for peopleyou know, maybe one of the most
intimidating or one of the mostscary aspects about it, because
you know technically there is aliability.
It because you know technicallythere is a liability, and so I
think you know, introducing kindof this financial liaison
(40:10):
position and reframing it from atreasurer position where that
you know it's more traditionallyjust the one person kind of
carrying the weight and theburden of that, I think
reframing that to be a morecollective process, that kind of
brings everybody along on acommon understanding.
It kind of demystifies it a bitbut also eliminates or
mitigates some risk.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Absolutely, because that's the whole point of having
a group of people around thetable with different viewpoints
is to have different voices thatcan say, hey, I see this, and
that's how you manage risk andalso see opportunities right.
So making that conversationavailable for everybody I think
was really significant.
(40:51):
And people aren't wrong to beconcerned about money.
I mean, we're in the artssector.
Arts organizations have moneyissues and arts organizations
have challenges and risks aroundfinances and nonprofits have
big risks and we see it.
And so board members who arenervous about money aren't wrong
(41:14):
, because there is a bigresponsibility to keep the
organization going and keep itliquid and have the resources
that you need.
So I think this change isn'tkind of a little dream world.
It addresses the reality thatyou need to have a good
financial plan as a board andany nonprofit yeah for sure yeah
(41:35):
, the yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
So then we?
What were the other majorchanges?
We have the intersectionalrepresentation.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
And then I think also the interest.
That was a big one.
And then I mean there's simplethings too, like the decision,
like we still have notes takenand we still have someone
facilitate the board meeting,but that's not necessarily
someone at the board table,right?
Because those two things take uptime and energy.
So if it's someone on the boardtaking notes and someone on the
(42:05):
board sharing the meeting,they're not actually
participating in theconversation.
So the board now has thefreedom to invite or pay someone
to come and do those two jobs.
Yeah, they have to be done Likesomeone needs to do that, like
you can't have.
It's not a free for all.
Yeah, but it doesn't have to besomebody who's a member of the
(42:26):
board.
And then the other major changethat was so exciting was about
the endeavor tointersectionality, and that's
written in the bylaws.
So that's written in thefoundational documents of the
SAA.
Do you want to talk about howthat happened?
Speaker 3 (42:39):
Yeah, so that was probably one of the more
in-depth and challengingconversations, I think, because
there is a lot to a conversationlike that and you know we were
interested in articulating andcapturing some way in the bylaws
of talking about how we do wanta diverse board, we want
(43:11):
historically underrepresentedfolks at the table participating
with us and we want to entrenchthat some way for the future,
for the future of theorganization to be able to say
you know, this is something thatis foundational to our values
as an organization movingforward.
And so we started talking aboutwhat does that look like
(43:35):
without it tokenizing people?
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Absolutely.
Which is a huge problem, whichis a huge problem, and that's
one of the things we heard inthe early conversations.
Right, and asking people ontothe board and then burdening
them with responsibilities tospeak on behalf of which is
completely illegitimate yeah,anyway, but you're completely
right about that.
And then I'm going to tell youhow it actually happened.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Because one board member just started talking and
I wrote down what he said andthat's what turned into the
bylaw.
Yeah, because he had it soclear in his mind what needed to
be in the bylaws and as he wastalking, everybody was like,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
So once we all realized, oronce you all realized that
(44:21):
that's what you wanted, and onemember just started speaking the
truth, then it was really easy.
I was fascinated and when youlook at the bylaw now that was
passed in the AGM, it's almostword for word what that board
member had to share.
And there were some adjustmentsbased on some words and some
(44:42):
terms that the SA was usingalready, but not a lot of
changes.
Speaker 3 (44:47):
I don't think I actually realized that, oh yeah
absolutely Like it was.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
That change probably took 17 minutes yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
And it's huge.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
And it's a huge change.
Now there was all the workahead of that yeah, to have the
environment and whateverhappened, so that that board
member felt free to speak likethat.
But really it was 17 minutesthat made a really foundational
change.
And I think the word endeavorlike the term endeavor to
(45:18):
intersectionality is beautiful,because the word endeavor is
we're in this together.
This is what it means to me.
We're all in this together,we're making our best efforts,
we're going to put energy intoit too.
It's not just work, yeah, andbecause goal can like, can come,
sometimes create pressure, orendeavor to me seemed to be an
active word about here's wherewe're headed, yeah, and it said
(45:43):
we're going to endeavor to 50%intersectionality Again made it
really clear what that means.
And then I think what happenedwas you followed it up with
coming up with just a practicalpolicy of checking in once a
year and saying, okay, who is onthe?
board.
How are we doing with ourendeavor to intersectionality
(46:04):
and you can share how wellyou're doing.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
Yeah, we're.
I mean, you know we'rebasically we're meeting and
exceeding our endeavor.
So it's great.
I think the previous year, thefirst that we kind of talked
about this we were at, you know,62% intersectional
representation on the board andkind of how practically we're
(46:27):
doing that and checking in aboutthat is that we have a board
member intake form online form,which I acknowledge may not suit
everyone's needs, but we talkabout that.
And yeah, basically there's avoluntary self-declaration that
board members can or, if theychoose not to, they don't have
to, but they can fill out totalk about if they identify with
(46:51):
any of the areas that we wantrepresentation from on the board
, and we can then take thatinformation and use it to talk
about who's on our board and tosee if we're meeting this goal,
this endeavor that we've set out.
And yeah, I guess that might bea really good segue to talk
about what happened at our 2023AGM and kind of nominations
(47:16):
process, because that was it wassomething I was not expecting.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Okay, well then, I'm going to, I'm going to turn the
table and now.
I'm going to interview you.
What happened with the 2023 AGMnominations process?
Yeah, because you'd posted onyour website a call for people
to you know nominations andinvited people to join the board
.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
Yeah, like we had you know kind of as a board, maybe
more traditionally does.
We had you know people kind ofthat we had talked to, that were
kind of lined up, that you knowshoulder tapping essentially.
Exactly who, who, who, yeah,who might come and join our
little gang, right, yeah, whomight join us?
(48:00):
And we had people who were kindof, you know, agreeing in
principle to put their namesforward and that sort of thing,
that those were the people thatwould come forward.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
And that's pretty normal.
Yeah, you know most nonprofitsand most nonprofit boards go out
and recruit people to be on theboard.
Yeah, from shoulder tapping toarm twisting.
Yeah, right, for real.
Yeah, for real, because you'relike, ah, please.
Right, you're like, ah, please.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
Right, so it's a stressful position to be in.
It's normally.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
Normally it is and that's sort of common practice
for people to.
You know people on the board togo and find other people to be
on the board.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
So I just explained that background Right.
Yeah, what kind of shockinglyended up happening is that we
had quite a few more selfnominations just from the form,
just from the call out that wehad put into the community, and
we ended up with we.
I was a little bit nervousbecause I thought we were going
to have to have an election andI didn't want to have an elect.
(48:53):
I mean, elections are great,let's have elections in in board
, in board meetings and AGMs.
I think that's, you know,that's a good thing.
But it was just such a kind ofshift from, you know, really
kind of trying to get people toparticipate and engage to then
having like a full board wherewe might have an election to
like what are we doing?
So, um, yeah, we had a reallygreat group of people put their
(49:14):
name forward who wereenthusiastic about wanting to be
on the SAA board and to be apart of what what's happening at
the SAA, and so, yeah, we wentfrom a board of eight people I
think we had two people leave atthe AGM and we're up to our
full complement.
We have 12 amazing boardmembers Fantastic, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
Fantastic.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
Yeah, and that's been , yeah, a real honor to have
that, to have those peopledecide that's where they want to
spend their valuable time.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
Absolutely, and their energy and their artistic
practice.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:54):
Yeah, it's been great and we're looking forward to
another exciting board retreat.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Yeah, that's coming up soon, beginning of April, so
yeah, I'm looking forward tothat too, and seeing what
happens in 17 minutes or longerRight, so yeah.
I guess we'll see, and it is abeautiful thing to have people
say I want to join your party, Iwant to come, I want to be part
of this.
Yeah, I think it's reallyexciting and a fully stocked
board is a beautiful thing.
(50:20):
Yeah, so yeah that's great.
Speaker 3 (50:22):
I think it'll serve the SAA well in the years to
come.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
And again fulfills what the SAA is all about, is
speaking on behalf of artistsand encouraging artists, and so
having a full board of artistswho can speak and who can share
their views and their thoughtsand their voices, I think is
essential, yeah, yeah, reallyessential, so great, yeah.
One of the things that I thinkis really important about this
(50:49):
work and about the SAA isoffering this experience to
other nonprofits and othermember organizations of the SAA.
Eventually, what started likewhat's really important about
this whole process is it'sfocused on doing less and more
meaningful work, and I thinkevery arts organization has a
(51:13):
lot of work, yeah, and when youcan focus on the most meaningful
part of it and doing less ofthe not meaningful part of it is
a huge relief.
Like even the look on your faceis like oh yeah.
So it almost seems to me thatthis process was about the SAA,
but it's also about the SAAmembership, and what I want to
(51:37):
make sure is that any SAA member, anybody in the arts
organizations of Saskatchewan ornonprofits in Saskatchewan, if
you want to understand a bitmore about what we did and how
we did it, how this process wasbased on relationship and
responsiveness and listening andgot the SAA to a point where
(51:58):
they have a governance structurethat actually embodies who they
are and what they need to beaccomplishing with the least
amount of hassle and the leastamount of boredom.
We'd be happy to share it, andI think that's really, really
important.
I think for me it's been anhonor and a privilege to work
with the SAA and, like some ofthe most exciting work of my
(52:19):
life, to be involved in thisprocess, and if it just stops
here, I think that would be kindof sad because I think there's
a lot for other organizations tolearn from.
So we've toyed around having atoolkit or, you know, doing this
podcast as part of sharing thestory, but I think it's really
important.
If anybody listening or hearingabout this work wants some help
(52:39):
in getting started themselves,needs a little bit of guidance,
please reach out to the SAA.
Yeah, for sure, and I'm happyto help too.
This kind of new way of lookingat governance that's relational
, that's not based on hierarchy,that's not based on old,
outdated models that were copiedfrom somebody else's world Just
(53:02):
because it's the way it'salways been done.
That's, yeah, yeah, breakingdown, yeah, breaking down the
just the way it's always beendone, is my idea of fun.
So, yeah, we'd be really happyto help other organizations with
this, and I don't know exactlywhat that looks like yet.
But again, this whole processstarted because we were
responsive to someone saying wewant you to think about this, so
(53:23):
let's put it back on yourmembership and say, hey, let us
know what you need from us.
Speaker 3 (53:27):
Yeah, and there's some you know it's definitely
not just the SAA, not just usdoing this kind of work.
There's really amazing peoplehere in our own province that
are doing some foundational workaround this.
We've got like AKA Artist RunCenter, like amazing.
You know, we can all definitelywe'll put some links.
There's some good writtenpieces about the changes they've
(53:50):
made in their governance andworking as a collective doing
really great work.
Yvette Nolan, who we invitedthere's a panel discussion that
we held as a part of our springgathering last year in May that
talks about this and you knowabout some of the work it brings
together Some.
Aaron Kang from the OntarioNonprofit Network the Ontario
(54:11):
Nonprofit Network has a wholeinitiative called Reimagining
Governance that we're kind of,you know, connected to them now
through that, and so it's reallya conversation that's bubbling
up from many different places inour own province, outside of
our province and we're justhappy to is a huge piece of
building the SAA's profilenationally.
Speaker 2 (54:47):
And all of that contributes to you being able to
advocate for the membership andfor the arts ecology in
Saskatchewan, because now theOntario Nonprofit Network is
like oh who's?
The Saskatchewan Arts Alliance,and that connects you with a
whole new group of people.
And so I think this work hasimplications much farther than
(55:09):
Saskatchewan and much fartherthan just getting your own house
in order and updating 20 yearold bylaws.
It's actually about, again,about new relationships and
about building your ability toadvocate at a national level and
even at a provincial level.
So, anyway, it's super excitingin lots of ways, and I'm sure
we'll continue to see ways thatthis work is going to benefit
(55:32):
the SAA and you, and maybe evenme, going forward.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
Who knows?
Speaker 2 (55:37):
And I firmly believe that projects that benefit
everyone involved are the wayforward, and we live in a world
where it's far too much about oh, what do I get Like, what's you
know?
Oh good, I got something andthey didn't.
And that'll never go away.
(56:00):
I don't think that'll go away,but I think it's really exciting
to be involved, um with you andwith the membership and the
board, in projects that areabsolutely about what's best for
everybody and best for yourmoney and your effort and your
time, but also our hearts andyou like this.
(56:21):
This is a project that'slightened people's hearts.
Certainly it's lightened mine,and I think that's just good
work and I think that's the workof good art.
Speaker 3 (56:32):
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah, thanks for a greatconversation.
Speaker 2 (56:36):
Thank you, Em.
Thanks for inviting me in lotsof ways.
Speaker 1 (56:40):
The next episode of Arts Everywhere is coming soon,
so keep checking theSaskatchewan Arts Alliance
website and their social mediapages for more information and
if you're listening to thepodcast through your favorite
podcasting app, don't forget tohit the subscribe button so you
don't miss a single episode.
The Arts Everywhere theme musicis composed by Saskatchewan
(57:01):
musician Patrick Moon Bird,dancing to lo-fi from his album
entitled 2021.
Check out the show notes forlinks to Patrick's music.
The Saskatchewan Arts Alliancewould like to thank our funders,
Sask Culture and Sask Arts,both of whom benefit from
lottery ticket sales throughSask Lotteries Proceeds from
(57:21):
Sask Lotteries fund culturalorganizations all across the
province, and we wouldn't beable to do the work we do
without your support.
See you next time.
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.