November 22, 2024 • 34 mins
In this episode, ArtsAbly is in conversation with Lisa Sniderman, a musical theatre playwright, songwriter, ukelele player, and vocalist known by her artist name, Aoede, living in California.
During the interview, Lisa Sniderman mentions a certain number of resources that are listed on ArtsAbly’s website, in the Blog section. Access Lisa Sniderman’s resources
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
♪ Opening theme music ♪
Hello, and welcome to this episodeof ArtsAbly in Conversation.
My name is Diane Kolin.
This series presents artists, academics,and project leaders who dedicate their
(00:24):
time and energy to a better accessibilityfor people with disabilities in the arts.
You can find more of these conversationson our website, artsably.com,
which is spelled A-R-T-S-A-B-L-Y dot com.
♪ Theme music ♪
(00:54):
Today, Artsably is in conversationwith Lisa Sniderman, a musical theater
playwright, a songwriter, a ukuleleplayer, and a vocalist,
known by her artist's name, Aoede, living in California.
You can find the resources mentionedby Lisa Sniderman during this episode
on ArtsAbly's website in the blog section.
(01:17):
♪ Rhythmic music ♪
♪ Sounds of people connecting on Zoom ♪
Hey, everybody.Check this out.
What makes a live theater experience?
(01:38):
I'm driven to find ways to takethe spectacle of live theater,
the visuals, the audio,and especially the feel of being
in community with a live audience,and to create comparable, immersive,
engaging experiencesfor a virtual audience.
I'm Lisa Sniderman.
I'm the playwright and co-composerfor The Grieving Project.
For 16 years, I've livedwith rare chronic illness, and I
(02:00):
kept so busy creating I realized Ihad forgotten to grieve my illness.
And I've also been home for years, missingand unable to attend live theater.
And I had this visionof bringing live theater experience
to those like me in community with othersthrough hybrid stage performances,
which sparked The Grieving Project.
My name is Suzanne Richard, the theatricaldirector of The Grieving Project.
(02:24):
I wanted people to be able togo to the theater, and if they couldn't
go to the theater, to be therewatching a show in community with others.
My name is Jessica Wallach,and I am the Accessibility Director
of The Grieving Project.
We want people to have multipleaccess points to experience this show.
(02:46):
My name is Chistopher Morrison.
I'm the Digital Experience Directorfor the Grieving Project.
In order to bring in the showinto the metaverse space, we brought in a
three-camera team and a live stream team.
Inside that metaverse space,there are three hanging screens
over our digital twin of the theater.
We So I had a digital twin of the lobbyof the theater where our digital audience
could meet in avatar form, talk with eachother, obviously get some instructions
(03:08):
about how the space would work.
Hi, my name is Enoch Chan.
I am video director, a live video directoron Grieving Project.
It very much became about reallyallowing for the audience to choose
whatever moment they want to see, justlike they're actually in in light play.
♪ Ambient music ♪
I was independent, and I was strong.
(03:33):
I had passions and songs andwas free to follow dreams.
I didn't even give it thought.
One word that encapsulates how thismade you feel or what it made you think.
Cool, curious, engaging,interesting, introspective, challenging.
(03:57):
For those of us who can't go seebig shows like Water for Elephants
and The Outsiders in Hell's Kitchen,it's important that we, too, have
engaging, immersive theater experiencesbeyond Broadway on demand.
And this proof of conceptis only the beginning.
[End of the presentation.]
(04:18):
Welcome to this new episodeof ArtsAbly in Conversation.
Today, I am with Lisa Sniderman,who is a musical theater playwright,
a songwriter, a ukulily player, anda vocalist known by her artist's name, A.
Aoede, living in California.Welcome, Lisa.
(04:38):
Thank you.It's so great to be here.
Thank you for being with us today.
It's great to talk with you.
I know you have a lotof projects going on, a lot of
talents that you developed over the year.
I am very interested in knowinga little bit more about you.
(05:00):
As a first question, can youtalk about your background, your story,
Yes.I'm Lis.
I go by she/her, and I'm inthe San Francisco Bay Area, California.
Okay, thank you.
How did it start all that?
How did you come to music and arts?
(05:20):
Well, I have been livingwith a rare chronic illness for 16
and a half years, two actually.
Dermatomyositis, which is a progressive muscle weakness disease that affects my muscles,
skin, stamina, energy, and somethingcalled common variable immune deficiency.
That impacts my immune systemand that means I make few antibodies.
(05:42):
I've been homebound even beforethe pandemic due to compromised immunity.
Let's take us back, as you said, yearsbefore all of this happened, so that you
get a sense of that's where I am now.
This is where I started.
I started making music in a about 2006under my artist persona, Aoede.
(06:04):
I chose this name because she wasthe muse of song in Greek mythology.
I actually wanted to beaffiliated with inspiration, just
to remind myself to be inspiredand to continually inspire others.
Actually in - I focused on albums and folk pop rock,
(06:25):
initially, in a singer-songwriter genre.
Then in 2010, I actuallyhad a big health flare.
I was diagnosed in '08 withthe first of my muscle diseases.
In '10, I had a big flarethat hospitalized me.
I was unable to use my muscles, and soI had to relearn how to do everything,
(06:46):
basic functions, sit, play,stand, and relearn my instruments.
That was a big transition in my life.
I shifted my focus in 2012 to musical
theater, knowing that it was not really
in the cards for me anymoreto be doing my singer-songwriter dream.
(07:09):
I wasn't going to be able to tour.I couldn't do live performances.
So I had to shift and figure out,how do I keep my dreams alive?
And so at that point,I started creating young adult
fantasy musicals as audiobooks.
And I blended character voicesand narration and full musical scores.
So think of a radio play.I started putting those out in 2012.
(07:33):
At the time, I had released, I think,well, actually, over time, I've released
about 10 albums, including threeof these fantasy musical audiobooks
that I had put onto - that I'd recorded.
And then I adapted someof those to stage plays.
So basically, I had this health setbackthat prevented me
(07:56):
from fully staging my work.
And that was a big thing becauseI was really getting the musical theater
bug, but I wasn't able to move forward.
So the main thing is I created art,and I realized this only recently,
to escape from my illness.
And then I started making musicand theater to help others
struggling with chronic illness thrive.
(08:18):
I started integrating my illnessinto my art, and I discovered that
music and art are my lifelines,and I just can't stop creating.
I think when COVID hit, it openedthis possibility of connecting everywhere
in the world that then became the normal.
(08:39):
Did it influence your thoughts?
Okay, Let's continue thatand open it to the world.
There is no reason why we couldn't make it
part of this project where everybody
could connect from everywhere.
Yeah.
In my world, that leads towhat I'm doing artistically
(09:03):
or what I ended up doing is because...
So I had spent so much time basicallycreating that I realized I hadn't grieved
my illness for all of these years.
I just sort of - and a lot of us do this.
We put ourselves directlyinto our work and we just keep going.
Sometimes it's a society thingthat tells us, be strong.
(09:24):
Don't let your outsideshow what's going on on the inside.
And so I never really grieved,and that was a big thing.
So it sparked me to createthis project that I can talk about.
But when you talk about COVID,it all happened during the pandemic.
So it was a time where not only was Ilooking at like, Oh, all of these things
(09:47):
that I may not have grievedwith my illness and changed identity,
but here we have a pandemic.
So now we have loss on topof it that we were all feeling
that was also brought to that project,including how it was created.
Just the fact that we hadto be in different places.
I couldn't be physically at the studio.
My health doesn't allow that.
(10:09):
So my producer was at the studio.
So the pandemic helped shape the projectsthat I did during those years, for sure.
I think it also opened so muchpossibilities to other artists just
to imagine, Okay, I'm an artist creatingfrom my bed, but now I can create from
a theater with a computer, with someonehelping me put a computer there.
(10:31):
I saw so many artists having new ideasand also gaining confidence
on the fact that there wasa new possibility that was opening.
Absolutely.
For some of us living with illnessand disabilities, that wasn't new.
I'm not saying the abilityto connect with theater.
(10:54):
You'll see that the projectI'm talking about is exactly that,
bringing live theater experienceto people who can't attend like me.
However, but first, even Zoom,that was something for some people.
I'd been on Zoom for years.
That had been my main way of connecting.
And I gave workshops on things that Iwas doing to chronic illness communities.
(11:17):
So I was already in that realm.
In other words, the isolation factorwasn't as big for me for the pandemic
as it was for some becauseI had already been operating that way.
And a lot of I had talked to who hadbeen living with illness and not so much
out in the world were guidanceto other people when it happened because
(11:39):
we've been there, we've been isolated.
Yeah. It reminds me of the talks we can have
in disability studies and criticaldisability studies,
where really the medical modelof disability, framing everything around
whatever a condition is,blocks the humanity
(12:02):
and the social parts of the person.
Absolutely.
I always feel this.I am not my disease.
I have a disease, and it does shape partof my identity, as does disability.
I understand that about myself,but I am first and foremost an artist.
I am not saying, Hey,I am Dermatomyositis.
(12:27):
That is not me.
That's exactly what I mean by, Ithink we're on the same page about that,
that I'm not the medical model either.
Speaking of medical model,you did a very interesting project.
It's a video where you explainyour experience in this progression of
(12:50):
the disease, and it's an animated video.
Can you talk about this project?
Keep Shining, if that's the oneyou're talking about.
Yeah.
This was spark for the projectthat I'm going to be telling you about
called The Grieving Project.
The reason that it is such a sparkfor me is I think, as I was saying,
(13:11):
I denied or I avoided reallythinking about what happened to me back
when I was in the hospital.Well, that happened in 2010.
It was 2019 when I wascreating Keep Shining.
And I had interviewed a whole bunchof people for a project
called Lights in the Darkness.
(13:32):
I thought, like I had written a book.
I wanted to share my memoir.
It's called A Light in the Darkness: Transcending Chronic Illness (13:36):
undefined
Through the Power of Art and Attitude.
And when I thought to myself,what's the best way that I want
to share this with the world.
It was in collaborationwith other artists.
I looked all over the world to find peoplewho are also creating to heal
and did this Lights in the Darkness.
I created a song that was based on allof our experiences called Keep Shining.
(14:00):
It wasn't until I created the videofor it that I realized this is my story.
As it was unfolding that, Oh,my gosh, the storyboard is the hospital.
Oh, my gosh, the storyboardis recovery, et cetera.
That that was the first symbol to me.
I hadn't grieved my illness.
(14:21):
A nurse, when I was getting infusionsat the time, saw this video and said,
your video can help others access theirfeelings in a way that words alone can't.
And that sparked meto create The Grieving Project
as a spoken word musical audiobook.
So can you talk about this project,The Grieving Project?
(14:43):
Absolutely.
So not only did I describe that I'vebeen home due to health, but I've also
been able to not attend live theater.
And I envision bringing the spectacleof live theater to others.
And whether that's the audio, the visuals,the feeling of being in community
with others, all of thatsparked this vision to adapt an audiobook
(15:08):
that I created during the pandemicto a hybrid stage musical.
I don't want to spend a ton of timeon the audiobook, but I'll just say
during the pandemic, that was my sourceand inspiration was like, I basically
put together 14 tracks, and they allrevolved around grieving and thriving.
So seven related to the stages of griefand seven related to these stages
(15:31):
that I created of thriving becauseI didn't want to stop at acceptance.
That doesn't go far enough in my eyes.
So anyways, I created this.
I've started adapting it.
And my dream is to stage this,but I can't physically be part of it.
We ask ourselves, What do you do ifyou can't realize your dream in person?
(15:53):
This was what came to me aboutthis idea of the Grieving Project.
When I started adapting it,this goal is to reimagine theater
and bring experiences to peoplewho can't attend live shows.
We did this with a hybriddisability center musical
that blends live and virtual theater.
Basically, think about If I describewhat we did as a proof of concept,
(16:18):
which I'll describe in a little bit,it's like you're able to experience it.
If you can go in person,you can see it in a theater live.
If you can't, like me, you gointo a virtual computer generated space.
Think of it like that.
We meet, Diane.
We sit and we meet as avatars in a lobby,and we can talk, and we can see things
(16:41):
around us, and then we can go intothe theater and watch the show together.
It's a community experience.
It's an opportunity to engage and bringthis idea of spectacle to others.
In the story, it's set pre-pandemic,where there's four disabled artists
that compete on a reality showcalled Disabled Got Talent.
(17:01):
As the story progresses, we explore themesof illness and mental health
and identity and transformationthrough the lens of this reality show.
The 14 stages of Grievingand Thriving that I was mentioning
mirror the competition rounds.
So Lis is this playwrightand a game developer with
a progressive muscle weakness who dreamsof launching this musical carnival game
(17:25):
called Wonder Haven.
When the pandemic hits,it halts the contest, and the characters
are forced to decide, do theywant to continue this contest?
And so they end up in Wonder Havenin some fashion, this world
that Lis has created.
And the key question that it's askingis, how can we let the light in
(17:47):
and keep our dreams alive?
And that is what I'm also exploring as aalternate title is how the light gets in.
So that's another thingthat I'm playing with.
And I'll just say really quickly tosum this project, we secured $65,000 to
produce a proof of concept in Baltimore,working with Open Circle Theater.
(18:10):
They're a disability-ledtheater in the DC Metro area.
We were able to do this proof of concept.
This will evolve into a full hybridproduction through '27, we're thinking.
Musicals take a long time to get to stage.
The exciting thing is wewere It's selected for a Doris Duke
(18:31):
Performing Arts Technology Lab R&D grant.
That means that we are exploring the techand the accessibility elements for
the project over the next five months.
It's important to me. We'll talkabout accessibility specifically and
why that's so important to me personally.
But this is also notjust about the concept.
(18:54):
It's so easy to talk to people and go,Wow, look at this cool
virtual lobby that you've created! But I also want to root the story in
centering disability, authentic,making sure that it's an emotionally
driven story and not justan interesting concept.
Then the last thing I'll sayis it's developing a model for
(19:17):
radically accessible hybrid theater.
That's the intent of this.
It's fun to be pioneeringthis new concept.
It's really interesting becauseworking on music
specifically,and trying to work with people who can
find solutions of playing differently,
(19:40):
like teaching children to see music education in another way
and to integrate ASL,
but also to play withthe virtual instruments
that could allow to play without touch.
But we are so so far from what
(20:02):
the technology in theater can offer.
It must be fun to think of the newgeneration of theater where artificial
intelligence or IT could be included,and then we are in the whole universe.
That's what we are doing with your team.
That's what we're striving to do.
(20:22):
I will say, I feel likewe have a little ways to go
with accessibility, particularly.
Here's an example.
When we did our proof concept, we gota first-hand look at, okay, most people
will log into a website in order tocreate an avatar, and then they get into
a space that is now the virtual theater.It's just a website.
(20:44):
It's not a whole new app.
However, if you are low visionor blind, you may need a screen reader.
Well, how much of thisis keyboard-based versus mouse?
What can the screen reader read and do?
How efficient? How can you navigate these areas?
(21:04):
That's just one example.
Then within the platform itself,are there ways that we can use,
not saying haptics, but all kindsof different tools for immersive?
There's so many great things happening,and we get an opportunity to work with
XR Access, which is a consortium outof Cornell, to be a consultant on this.
(21:28):
I'm really excited by that because theywork with with disability, specifically
with XR and mixed reality and AR,all these terms that are in relation
to the VR world without necessarilyhaving to have VR glasses on.
There's a lot, like you say,it's opening up in an interesting way.
(21:49):
But I also say, so one ofthe most exciting things for me
was my participation was by robot.
I'm reimagining access in different ways than just traditional
when we think of the physical access.
Obviously, we think of digital access.
We'll talk about what accessibility means.
But for me, that also is expanding itbecause I couldn't be there.
(22:14):
Now people people like me as a behindthe scenes, so to speak, as a playwright
or a designer, can participate.
I did that for our whole productionfor two weeks by robot.
That means I was ableto control the robot from home.
I'm able to navigate in the spacedifferently than just say, relegated to
(22:34):
a Zoom square in the corner.
It's amazing.
It's amazing, yeah.
It's a good segue to this question,what does accessibility
in the arts mean for you?
Yeah.
In general, I believe that itmeans everybody, regardless of ability,
can create and experience and enjoy artfully and without barriers.
(22:58):
When we talked what I was sharinga little bit, I think my work is more
on the digital right now sideand the inclusive side, making sure
people with disabilitiesare part of design, et cetera.
But access extends to physical,sensory, and cognitive,
and programmatic, all these areas.
(23:21):
In my work, I feel likemy advocacy has been around...
I've been a passionate artist, and I'veworked extensively as advocate in the
chronic illness communities since 2018.
So my take is like, I'm ensuringthat people with chronic illness can
have access to arts in different ways.
(23:42):
When I launched, like I say, a lightin the darkness that I was talking about.
I collaborated with 50 artists,and I produced live multimedia events.
I hosted an online summit in June of 2020called How to Thrive with Chronic Illness
that had 1,800 participants after a yearof videoing interviews with experts that
(24:04):
I recorded from home and many from bed.
This is all stuff that I'm doingas somebody living with chronic illness
to help others in my community thrive.
Then I've alsoengaged with disabled communities over
the Grieving Project as the audiobook.
I have a support groupthat is part of my own illness community
(24:26):
called Myocytis Supportand Understanding, where I ran workshops.
I've been able to work withtheater company for a virtual reading
where I cast disabled actors.
I've worked with Open Circle Theateron accessibility-driven virtual
workshops, and even my work in RAMPD.
(24:46):
RAMPD is Recording Artists andMusic Professionals with Disabilities.
Diane knows because she'sa professional member of RAMPD, too.
I was Secretary and Engagement Coach here.
Even before that, I was workingon partnerships to help make
the Grammys more accessible.
A lot of my work actuallyis around access in different ways
(25:06):
than I would have ever thoughtthat access is actually happening.
Then directly in my project,in the Grieving Project,
it is disability-led, created for,by, with people with disabilities,
with rooted in accessibility.
We hired a accessibility director.
We had a directorof artistic sign language.
(25:28):
We had the basic, when I wouldsay basic, like assistive devices,
if people need it, et cetera.
But then beyond that, as I was saying,we were trying to figure out how
do we really include everyonefrom the top of this project,
from building in access rather thanthinking about access as an afterthought.
(25:51):
That's the key for our project is we say, Hey,
access extends to all aspects
of the project and all people, including me.
We're not thinking just our audiences.
What has been fabulous in this initiativeto work with the Grammys
is that they were responding.
(26:13):
They were actually listening which is rarefor big organizations that are like,
Oh, no, we have to accessibilizeour thing again.
No, not at all.
They were like, Okay,these people are awesome.
Let's listen to them.
Yeah, Yes, but Diane, and.Oh, yes, and that.
And accessibility is good for everyone.
(26:36):
And that is somethingthat we're starting to really...
That message is coming across.
I've heard it toutedmany times of curb cuts.
That initially it mighthave been for wheelchairs.
But people who have babies in strollers,moms with babies in strollers, use them.
So in other words, if wecreate accessible experiences,
(26:59):
then We're doing it for more.
In my project, my priority,my focus is people with
chronic illness and disabilities.
And yet I know that it's goingto speak to economic, it's going
to speak to geography, peoplewho can't get to theater for that,
for people who have problemswith physical access at theaters.
(27:20):
So there's different communitiesthat we're going to be able to serve.
And of course, since it's online,we're talking worldwide now.
So this is exciting It's exciting to me.
I'm not saying we're the first at all tobe creating hybrid theater by any means,
but I don't see a lot of hybrid theatercreating full musicals in a metaverse
(27:42):
style, like a virtual environment.
I also don't see it that'srooted in disability.
That's what I feel like our advantageor whatever we call it
that we can bring to the table.
Absolutely.
Well, this is fantastic.
Congratulations because it's really huge.
Even if it's just a proof of concept rightnow, everything you've accomplished
(28:07):
so far with this team, it's great.
Thank you.
I have a last question for you.
It's about people who might have impactedyou in your career or inspired you.
If you had to think of one or two peoplewho really counted in the progression
of your career, who would it be and why?
(28:31):
Yeah.
Honestly, right now, because I wasn'tnecessarily thinking of the past so much,
is the present, and that is Lachi.
So RAMPD has at its helm, the definitionof a rock star, in my opinion.
She's the founder of RAMPD.
She was the past president for the timesthat I served alongside her for a while.
(28:55):
And I've served alongside herwhile she was president.
And so I've gotten to know hermonthly, through monthly meetings,
et cetera, as well as different ways.
Watching her lead and grow RAMPDwhile skyrocketing her own career
has been very motivating and empowering.
She gives all of usa platform to rise and shine.
(29:17):
She shines her light brightlyin everything she does.
She's this exceptional leader,and she's a staunch, tireless advocate
and uber talented artist.
She promotes disability advocacy workwhile excelling in her own career.
To me, it's like sheelevates disability culture,
fights for authentic representation,and promotes identity pride.
(29:42):
I have had this excellent role modeland shows me, let's put it this way,
when I first was on the fence about how
I personally felt as a disabled artist,
I was still using differently able.
I was still using terms like that because
I had a community who thought that dis
(30:05):
meant different, separate in a negativeway, not necessarily in a way that was like,
Hey, we should celebrate this.This is part of us.
We're cool.
We bring problem solving in allthese different ways because not despite.
I always think of that.
I don't know if I got thatfrom Lachi, but that feeling
(30:27):
for me is because not despite.
She's bold and unapologetic, and she makesdisability visibility a priority.
It doesn't matter whether she's performingor speaking to somebody at the White House
or on a call with RAMPD members.
Everywhere that I've been ableto experience what she brings
(30:51):
has been very empowering.
If you use the word inspirationwith her, she might shoot you.
She always says, and this is fascinating,It's interesting to me because I have
affiliated myself with inspiration, muse.
I'm the one who's supposed toinspire in my head as my artist persona.
And that extended into my life,which made it hard to grieve in some ways
(31:16):
because I'm always supposed tobe the positive one and not be.
So for her, an inspiration,we had a conversation once that
it's about, what do I inspire you to do?
To act?
And so that's where shewants to be affiliated
with inspiration in some fashion.
(31:36):
But a lot of people in the disabilityworld have this whole thing about
"disability porn," meaning just becausesomebody gets out of bed and gets to
the store, don't mean that's inspiring.
That's just what they do.
And I'm saying it facetiously becauseit's true.
Even my director has sharedan experience about her pumping gas
(31:57):
while in a wheelchair,and that being something
that somebody else had to comment on as very inspiring.
Now, I know that some ofthese people are well-intentioned.
They are not meaning harmto Susie in this case.
They just don't know.
I don't know.
(32:18):
We could have a conversationfor 40 more minutes on this.
Yeah, for sure.
But speaking of conversation,it comes with the conversation.
It comes with the communication.
It comes with...
I'm a wheelchair user,so I have that a lot.
People come to me and say,Oh, you're so inspiring.
That's the way peoplehave been taught to see disability.
(32:43):
Now, how to change the narrative,how to change the education,
and how to change the non-intentional
behavior, it's by speaking with people.
I constantly, constantly have that.
Yes, I can imagine.
And, yes, and that, for me,I'm okay with being inspirational,
(33:05):
not because I'm disabled, but becausesomething I'm doing is giving somebody
an impact of some sort.
And Lachi does that for me.
So yes, she does motivate me sometimesto act, and that's what she's about.
That's where the inspiration comes in.
So yes, if somebody says,Wow, you're really inspirational,
(33:26):
that's okay for my artist identity.
It may not be okay my disability identity,but it's okay for me personally.
That's just where I'm at.
I'm sure you're going to bea role model for someone
who's listening or seeing your work.
Yeah, that's great.
(33:46):
Well, thank you so much.
It was great talking aboutall your fascinating projects
and really best of luck for everything.
Thank you for having me.
I just love what you're doing.
I'm so glad that you're hereto share, uplift, promote artists.
It's a great opportunity.Thank you.
(34:07):
Thank you so much.
Talk soon in another project.
Have a great day..
♪ Closing theme music ♪
♪ Opening theme music ♪
Hello, and welcome to this episodeof ArtsAbly in Conversation.
My name is Diane Kolin.
This series presents artists, academics,and project leaders who dedicate their
(00:24):
time and energy to a better accessibilityfor people with disabilities in the arts.
You can find more of these conversationson our website, artsably.com,
which is spelled A-R-T-S-A-B-L-Y dot com.
♪ Theme music ♪
(00:54):
Today, Artsably is in conversationwith Lisa Sniderman, a musical theater
playwright, a songwriter, a ukuleleplayer, and a vocalist,
known by her artist's name, Aoede, living in California.
You can find the resources mentionedby Lisa Sniderman during this episode
on ArtsAbly's website in the blog section.
(01:17):
♪ Rhythmic music ♪
♪ Sounds of people connecting on Zoom ♪
Hey, everybody.Check this out.
What makes a live theater experience?
(01:38):
I'm driven to find ways to takethe spectacle of live theater,
the visuals, the audio,and especially the feel of being
in community with a live audience,and to create comparable, immersive,
engaging experiencesfor a virtual audience.
I'm Lisa Sniderman.
I'm the playwright and co-composerfor The Grieving Project.
For 16 years, I've livedwith rare chronic illness, and I
(02:00):
kept so busy creating I realized Ihad forgotten to grieve my illness.
And I've also been home for years, missingand unable to attend live theater.
And I had this visionof bringing live theater experience
to those like me in community with othersthrough hybrid stage performances,
which sparked The Grieving Project.
My name is Suzanne Richard, the theatricaldirector of The Grieving Project.
(02:24):
I wanted people to be able togo to the theater, and if they couldn't
go to the theater, to be therewatching a show in community with others.
My name is Jessica Wallach,and I am the Accessibility Director
of The Grieving Project.
We want people to have multipleaccess points to experience this show.
(02:46):
My name is Chistopher Morrison.
I'm the Digital Experience Directorfor the Grieving Project.
In order to bring in the showinto the metaverse space, we brought in a
three-camera team and a live stream team.
Inside that metaverse space,there are three hanging screens
over our digital twin of the theater.
We So I had a digital twin of the lobbyof the theater where our digital audience
could meet in avatar form, talk with eachother, obviously get some instructions
(03:08):
about how the space would work.
Hi, my name is Enoch Chan.
I am video director, a live video directoron Grieving Project.
It very much became about reallyallowing for the audience to choose
whatever moment they want to see, justlike they're actually in in light play.
♪ Ambient music ♪
I was independent, and I was strong.
(03:33):
I had passions and songs andwas free to follow dreams.
I didn't even give it thought.
One word that encapsulates how thismade you feel or what it made you think.
Cool, curious, engaging,interesting, introspective, challenging.
(03:57):
For those of us who can't go seebig shows like Water for Elephants
and The Outsiders in Hell's Kitchen,it's important that we, too, have
engaging, immersive theater experiencesbeyond Broadway on demand.
And this proof of conceptis only the beginning.
[End of the presentation.]
(04:18):
Welcome to this new episodeof ArtsAbly in Conversation.
Today, I am with Lisa Sniderman,who is a musical theater playwright,
a songwriter, a ukulily player, anda vocalist known by her artist's name, A.
Aoede, living in California.Welcome, Lisa.
(04:38):
Thank you.It's so great to be here.
Thank you for being with us today.
It's great to talk with you.
I know you have a lotof projects going on, a lot of
talents that you developed over the year.
I am very interested in knowinga little bit more about you.
(05:00):
As a first question, can youtalk about your background, your story,
Yes.I'm Lis.
I go by she/her, and I'm inthe San Francisco Bay Area, California.
Okay, thank you.
How did it start all that?
How did you come to music and arts?
(05:20):
Well, I have been livingwith a rare chronic illness for 16
and a half years, two actually.
Dermatomyositis, which is a progressive muscle weakness disease that affects my muscles,
skin, stamina, energy, and somethingcalled common variable immune deficiency.
That impacts my immune systemand that means I make few antibodies.
(05:42):
I've been homebound even beforethe pandemic due to compromised immunity.
Let's take us back, as you said, yearsbefore all of this happened, so that you
get a sense of that's where I am now.
This is where I started.
I started making music in a about 2006under my artist persona, Aoede.
(06:04):
I chose this name because she wasthe muse of song in Greek mythology.
I actually wanted to beaffiliated with inspiration, just
to remind myself to be inspiredand to continually inspire others.
Actually in - I focused on albums and folk pop rock,
(06:25):
initially, in a singer-songwriter genre.
Then in 2010, I actuallyhad a big health flare.
I was diagnosed in '08 withthe first of my muscle diseases.
In '10, I had a big flarethat hospitalized me.
I was unable to use my muscles, and soI had to relearn how to do everything,
(06:46):
basic functions, sit, play,stand, and relearn my instruments.
That was a big transition in my life.
I shifted my focus in 2012 to musical
theater, knowing that it was not really
in the cards for me anymoreto be doing my singer-songwriter dream.
(07:09):
I wasn't going to be able to tour.I couldn't do live performances.
So I had to shift and figure out,how do I keep my dreams alive?
And so at that point,I started creating young adult
fantasy musicals as audiobooks.
And I blended character voicesand narration and full musical scores.
So think of a radio play.I started putting those out in 2012.
(07:33):
At the time, I had released, I think,well, actually, over time, I've released
about 10 albums, including threeof these fantasy musical audiobooks
that I had put onto - that I'd recorded.
And then I adapted someof those to stage plays.
So basically, I had this health setbackthat prevented me
(07:56):
from fully staging my work.
And that was a big thing becauseI was really getting the musical theater
bug, but I wasn't able to move forward.
So the main thing is I created art,and I realized this only recently,
to escape from my illness.
And then I started making musicand theater to help others
struggling with chronic illness thrive.
(08:18):
I started integrating my illnessinto my art, and I discovered that
music and art are my lifelines,and I just can't stop creating.
I think when COVID hit, it openedthis possibility of connecting everywhere
in the world that then became the normal.
(08:39):
Did it influence your thoughts?
Okay, Let's continue thatand open it to the world.
There is no reason why we couldn't make it
part of this project where everybody
could connect from everywhere.
Yeah.
In my world, that leads towhat I'm doing artistically
(09:03):
or what I ended up doing is because...
So I had spent so much time basicallycreating that I realized I hadn't grieved
my illness for all of these years.
I just sort of - and a lot of us do this.
We put ourselves directlyinto our work and we just keep going.
Sometimes it's a society thingthat tells us, be strong.
(09:24):
Don't let your outsideshow what's going on on the inside.
And so I never really grieved,and that was a big thing.
So it sparked me to createthis project that I can talk about.
But when you talk about COVID,it all happened during the pandemic.
So it was a time where not only was Ilooking at like, Oh, all of these things
(09:47):
that I may not have grievedwith my illness and changed identity,
but here we have a pandemic.
So now we have loss on topof it that we were all feeling
that was also brought to that project,including how it was created.
Just the fact that we hadto be in different places.
I couldn't be physically at the studio.
My health doesn't allow that.
(10:09):
So my producer was at the studio.
So the pandemic helped shape the projectsthat I did during those years, for sure.
I think it also opened so muchpossibilities to other artists just
to imagine, Okay, I'm an artist creatingfrom my bed, but now I can create from
a theater with a computer, with someonehelping me put a computer there.
(10:31):
I saw so many artists having new ideasand also gaining confidence
on the fact that there wasa new possibility that was opening.
Absolutely.
For some of us living with illnessand disabilities, that wasn't new.
I'm not saying the abilityto connect with theater.
(10:54):
You'll see that the projectI'm talking about is exactly that,
bringing live theater experienceto people who can't attend like me.
However, but first, even Zoom,that was something for some people.
I'd been on Zoom for years.
That had been my main way of connecting.
And I gave workshops on things that Iwas doing to chronic illness communities.
(11:17):
So I was already in that realm.
In other words, the isolation factorwasn't as big for me for the pandemic
as it was for some becauseI had already been operating that way.
And a lot of I had talked to who hadbeen living with illness and not so much
out in the world were guidanceto other people when it happened because
(11:39):
we've been there, we've been isolated.
Yeah. It reminds me of the talks we can have
in disability studies and criticaldisability studies,
where really the medical modelof disability, framing everything around
whatever a condition is,blocks the humanity
(12:02):
and the social parts of the person.
Absolutely.
I always feel this.I am not my disease.
I have a disease, and it does shape partof my identity, as does disability.
I understand that about myself,but I am first and foremost an artist.
I am not saying, Hey,I am Dermatomyositis.
(12:27):
That is not me.
That's exactly what I mean by, Ithink we're on the same page about that,
that I'm not the medical model either.
Speaking of medical model,you did a very interesting project.
It's a video where you explainyour experience in this progression of
(12:50):
the disease, and it's an animated video.
Can you talk about this project?
Keep Shining, if that's the oneyou're talking about.
Yeah.
This was spark for the projectthat I'm going to be telling you about
called The Grieving Project.
The reason that it is such a sparkfor me is I think, as I was saying,
(13:11):
I denied or I avoided reallythinking about what happened to me back
when I was in the hospital.Well, that happened in 2010.
It was 2019 when I wascreating Keep Shining.
And I had interviewed a whole bunchof people for a project
called Lights in the Darkness.
(13:32):
I thought, like I had written a book.
I wanted to share my memoir.
It's called A Light in the Darkness: Transcending Chronic Illness (13:36):
undefined
Through the Power of Art and Attitude.
And when I thought to myself,what's the best way that I want
to share this with the world.
It was in collaborationwith other artists.
I looked all over the world to find peoplewho are also creating to heal
and did this Lights in the Darkness.
I created a song that was based on allof our experiences called Keep Shining.
(14:00):
It wasn't until I created the videofor it that I realized this is my story.
As it was unfolding that, Oh,my gosh, the storyboard is the hospital.
Oh, my gosh, the storyboardis recovery, et cetera.
That that was the first symbol to me.
I hadn't grieved my illness.
(14:21):
A nurse, when I was getting infusionsat the time, saw this video and said,
your video can help others access theirfeelings in a way that words alone can't.
And that sparked meto create The Grieving Project
as a spoken word musical audiobook.
So can you talk about this project,The Grieving Project?
(14:43):
Absolutely.
So not only did I describe that I'vebeen home due to health, but I've also
been able to not attend live theater.
And I envision bringing the spectacleof live theater to others.
And whether that's the audio, the visuals,the feeling of being in community
with others, all of thatsparked this vision to adapt an audiobook
(15:08):
that I created during the pandemicto a hybrid stage musical.
I don't want to spend a ton of timeon the audiobook, but I'll just say
during the pandemic, that was my sourceand inspiration was like, I basically
put together 14 tracks, and they allrevolved around grieving and thriving.
So seven related to the stages of griefand seven related to these stages
(15:31):
that I created of thriving becauseI didn't want to stop at acceptance.
That doesn't go far enough in my eyes.
So anyways, I created this.
I've started adapting it.
And my dream is to stage this,but I can't physically be part of it.
We ask ourselves, What do you do ifyou can't realize your dream in person?
(15:53):
This was what came to me aboutthis idea of the Grieving Project.
When I started adapting it,this goal is to reimagine theater
and bring experiences to peoplewho can't attend live shows.
We did this with a hybriddisability center musical
that blends live and virtual theater.
Basically, think about If I describewhat we did as a proof of concept,
(16:18):
which I'll describe in a little bit,it's like you're able to experience it.
If you can go in person,you can see it in a theater live.
If you can't, like me, you gointo a virtual computer generated space.
Think of it like that.
We meet, Diane.
We sit and we meet as avatars in a lobby,and we can talk, and we can see things
(16:41):
around us, and then we can go intothe theater and watch the show together.
It's a community experience.
It's an opportunity to engage and bringthis idea of spectacle to others.
In the story, it's set pre-pandemic,where there's four disabled artists
that compete on a reality showcalled Disabled Got Talent.
(17:01):
As the story progresses, we explore themesof illness and mental health
and identity and transformationthrough the lens of this reality show.
The 14 stages of Grievingand Thriving that I was mentioning
mirror the competition rounds.
So Lis is this playwrightand a game developer with
a progressive muscle weakness who dreamsof launching this musical carnival game
(17:25):
called Wonder Haven.
When the pandemic hits,it halts the contest, and the characters
are forced to decide, do theywant to continue this contest?
And so they end up in Wonder Havenin some fashion, this world
that Lis has created.
And the key question that it's askingis, how can we let the light in
(17:47):
and keep our dreams alive?
And that is what I'm also exploring as aalternate title is how the light gets in.
So that's another thingthat I'm playing with.
And I'll just say really quickly tosum this project, we secured $65,000 to
produce a proof of concept in Baltimore,working with Open Circle Theater.
(18:10):
They're a disability-ledtheater in the DC Metro area.
We were able to do this proof of concept.
This will evolve into a full hybridproduction through '27, we're thinking.
Musicals take a long time to get to stage.
The exciting thing is wewere It's selected for a Doris Duke
(18:31):
Performing Arts Technology Lab R&D grant.
That means that we are exploring the techand the accessibility elements for
the project over the next five months.
It's important to me. We'll talkabout accessibility specifically and
why that's so important to me personally.
But this is also notjust about the concept.
(18:54):
It's so easy to talk to people and go,Wow, look at this cool
virtual lobby that you've created! But I also want to root the story in
centering disability, authentic,making sure that it's an emotionally
driven story and not justan interesting concept.
Then the last thing I'll sayis it's developing a model for
(19:17):
radically accessible hybrid theater.
That's the intent of this.
It's fun to be pioneeringthis new concept.
It's really interesting becauseworking on music
specifically,and trying to work with people who can
find solutions of playing differently,
(19:40):
like teaching children to see music education in another way
and to integrate ASL,
but also to play withthe virtual instruments
that could allow to play without touch.
But we are so so far from what
(20:02):
the technology in theater can offer.
It must be fun to think of the newgeneration of theater where artificial
intelligence or IT could be included,and then we are in the whole universe.
That's what we are doing with your team.
That's what we're striving to do.
(20:22):
I will say, I feel likewe have a little ways to go
with accessibility, particularly.
Here's an example.
When we did our proof concept, we gota first-hand look at, okay, most people
will log into a website in order tocreate an avatar, and then they get into
a space that is now the virtual theater.It's just a website.
(20:44):
It's not a whole new app.
However, if you are low visionor blind, you may need a screen reader.
Well, how much of thisis keyboard-based versus mouse?
What can the screen reader read and do?
How efficient? How can you navigate these areas?
(21:04):
That's just one example.
Then within the platform itself,are there ways that we can use,
not saying haptics, but all kindsof different tools for immersive?
There's so many great things happening,and we get an opportunity to work with
XR Access, which is a consortium outof Cornell, to be a consultant on this.
(21:28):
I'm really excited by that because theywork with with disability, specifically
with XR and mixed reality and AR,all these terms that are in relation
to the VR world without necessarilyhaving to have VR glasses on.
There's a lot, like you say,it's opening up in an interesting way.
(21:49):
But I also say, so one ofthe most exciting things for me
was my participation was by robot.
I'm reimagining access in different ways than just traditional
when we think of the physical access.
Obviously, we think of digital access.
We'll talk about what accessibility means.
But for me, that also is expanding itbecause I couldn't be there.
(22:14):
Now people people like me as a behindthe scenes, so to speak, as a playwright
or a designer, can participate.
I did that for our whole productionfor two weeks by robot.
That means I was ableto control the robot from home.
I'm able to navigate in the spacedifferently than just say, relegated to
(22:34):
a Zoom square in the corner.
It's amazing.
It's amazing, yeah.
It's a good segue to this question,what does accessibility
in the arts mean for you?
Yeah.
In general, I believe that itmeans everybody, regardless of ability,
can create and experience and enjoy artfully and without barriers.
(22:58):
When we talked what I was sharinga little bit, I think my work is more
on the digital right now sideand the inclusive side, making sure
people with disabilitiesare part of design, et cetera.
But access extends to physical,sensory, and cognitive,
and programmatic, all these areas.
(23:21):
In my work, I feel likemy advocacy has been around...
I've been a passionate artist, and I'veworked extensively as advocate in the
chronic illness communities since 2018.
So my take is like, I'm ensuringthat people with chronic illness can
have access to arts in different ways.
(23:42):
When I launched, like I say, a lightin the darkness that I was talking about.
I collaborated with 50 artists,and I produced live multimedia events.
I hosted an online summit in June of 2020called How to Thrive with Chronic Illness
that had 1,800 participants after a yearof videoing interviews with experts that
(24:04):
I recorded from home and many from bed.
This is all stuff that I'm doingas somebody living with chronic illness
to help others in my community thrive.
Then I've alsoengaged with disabled communities over
the Grieving Project as the audiobook.
I have a support groupthat is part of my own illness community
(24:26):
called Myocytis Supportand Understanding, where I ran workshops.
I've been able to work withtheater company for a virtual reading
where I cast disabled actors.
I've worked with Open Circle Theateron accessibility-driven virtual
workshops, and even my work in RAMPD.
(24:46):
RAMPD is Recording Artists andMusic Professionals with Disabilities.
Diane knows because she'sa professional member of RAMPD, too.
I was Secretary and Engagement Coach here.
Even before that, I was workingon partnerships to help make
the Grammys more accessible.
A lot of my work actuallyis around access in different ways
(25:06):
than I would have ever thoughtthat access is actually happening.
Then directly in my project,in the Grieving Project,
it is disability-led, created for,by, with people with disabilities,
with rooted in accessibility.
We hired a accessibility director.
We had a directorof artistic sign language.
(25:28):
We had the basic, when I wouldsay basic, like assistive devices,
if people need it, et cetera.
But then beyond that, as I was saying,we were trying to figure out how
do we really include everyonefrom the top of this project,
from building in access rather thanthinking about access as an afterthought.
(25:51):
That's the key for our project is we say, Hey,
access extends to all aspects
of the project and all people, including me.
We're not thinking just our audiences.
What has been fabulous in this initiativeto work with the Grammys
is that they were responding.
(26:13):
They were actually listening which is rarefor big organizations that are like,
Oh, no, we have to accessibilizeour thing again.
No, not at all.
They were like, Okay,these people are awesome.
Let's listen to them.
Yeah, Yes, but Diane, and.Oh, yes, and that.
And accessibility is good for everyone.
(26:36):
And that is somethingthat we're starting to really...
That message is coming across.
I've heard it toutedmany times of curb cuts.
That initially it mighthave been for wheelchairs.
But people who have babies in strollers,moms with babies in strollers, use them.
So in other words, if wecreate accessible experiences,
(26:59):
then We're doing it for more.
In my project, my priority,my focus is people with
chronic illness and disabilities.
And yet I know that it's goingto speak to economic, it's going
to speak to geography, peoplewho can't get to theater for that,
for people who have problemswith physical access at theaters.
(27:20):
So there's different communitiesthat we're going to be able to serve.
And of course, since it's online,we're talking worldwide now.
So this is exciting It's exciting to me.
I'm not saying we're the first at all tobe creating hybrid theater by any means,
but I don't see a lot of hybrid theatercreating full musicals in a metaverse
(27:42):
style, like a virtual environment.
I also don't see it that'srooted in disability.
That's what I feel like our advantageor whatever we call it
that we can bring to the table.
Absolutely.
Well, this is fantastic.
Congratulations because it's really huge.
Even if it's just a proof of concept rightnow, everything you've accomplished
(28:07):
so far with this team, it's great.
Thank you.
I have a last question for you.
It's about people who might have impactedyou in your career or inspired you.
If you had to think of one or two peoplewho really counted in the progression
of your career, who would it be and why?
(28:31):
Yeah.
Honestly, right now, because I wasn'tnecessarily thinking of the past so much,
is the present, and that is Lachi.
So RAMPD has at its helm, the definitionof a rock star, in my opinion.
She's the founder of RAMPD.
She was the past president for the timesthat I served alongside her for a while.
(28:55):
And I've served alongside herwhile she was president.
And so I've gotten to know hermonthly, through monthly meetings,
et cetera, as well as different ways.
Watching her lead and grow RAMPDwhile skyrocketing her own career
has been very motivating and empowering.
She gives all of usa platform to rise and shine.
(29:17):
She shines her light brightlyin everything she does.
She's this exceptional leader,and she's a staunch, tireless advocate
and uber talented artist.
She promotes disability advocacy workwhile excelling in her own career.
To me, it's like sheelevates disability culture,
fights for authentic representation,and promotes identity pride.
(29:42):
I have had this excellent role modeland shows me, let's put it this way,
when I first was on the fence about how
I personally felt as a disabled artist,
I was still using differently able.
I was still using terms like that because
I had a community who thought that dis
(30:05):
meant different, separate in a negativeway, not necessarily in a way that was like,
Hey, we should celebrate this.This is part of us.
We're cool.
We bring problem solving in allthese different ways because not despite.
I always think of that.
I don't know if I got thatfrom Lachi, but that feeling
(30:27):
for me is because not despite.
She's bold and unapologetic, and she makesdisability visibility a priority.
It doesn't matter whether she's performingor speaking to somebody at the White House
or on a call with RAMPD members.
Everywhere that I've been ableto experience what she brings
(30:51):
has been very empowering.
If you use the word inspirationwith her, she might shoot you.
She always says, and this is fascinating,It's interesting to me because I have
affiliated myself with inspiration, muse.
I'm the one who's supposed toinspire in my head as my artist persona.
And that extended into my life,which made it hard to grieve in some ways
(31:16):
because I'm always supposed tobe the positive one and not be.
So for her, an inspiration,we had a conversation once that
it's about, what do I inspire you to do?
To act?
And so that's where shewants to be affiliated
with inspiration in some fashion.
(31:36):
But a lot of people in the disabilityworld have this whole thing about
"disability porn," meaning just becausesomebody gets out of bed and gets to
the store, don't mean that's inspiring.
That's just what they do.
And I'm saying it facetiously becauseit's true.
Even my director has sharedan experience about her pumping gas
(31:57):
while in a wheelchair,and that being something
that somebody else had to comment on as very inspiring.
Now, I know that some ofthese people are well-intentioned.
They are not meaning harmto Susie in this case.
They just don't know.
I don't know.
(32:18):
We could have a conversationfor 40 more minutes on this.
Yeah, for sure.
But speaking of conversation,it comes with the conversation.
It comes with the communication.
It comes with...
I'm a wheelchair user,so I have that a lot.
People come to me and say,Oh, you're so inspiring.
That's the way peoplehave been taught to see disability.
(32:43):
Now, how to change the narrative,how to change the education,
and how to change the non-intentional
behavior, it's by speaking with people.
I constantly, constantly have that.
Yes, I can imagine.
And, yes, and that, for me,I'm okay with being inspirational,
(33:05):
not because I'm disabled, but becausesomething I'm doing is giving somebody
an impact of some sort.
And Lachi does that for me.
So yes, she does motivate me sometimesto act, and that's what she's about.
That's where the inspiration comes in.
So yes, if somebody says,Wow, you're really inspirational,
(33:26):
that's okay for my artist identity.
It may not be okay my disability identity,but it's okay for me personally.
That's just where I'm at.
I'm sure you're going to bea role model for someone
who's listening or seeing your work.
Yeah, that's great.
(33:46):
Well, thank you so much.
It was great talking aboutall your fascinating projects
and really best of luck for everything.
Thank you for having me.
I just love what you're doing.
I'm so glad that you're hereto share, uplift, promote artists.
It's a great opportunity.Thank you.
(34:07):
Thank you so much.
Talk soon in another project.
Have a great day..
♪ Closing theme music ♪
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History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.