November 23, 2025 • 59 mins
Memory can move like a boat in a draft, and that’s exactly what happened the moment we stepped into Elizabeth Fergus Jean’s dream studio in the woods. Suspended vessels, flickering shadows, stones with rings of time, and a labyrinth set on a forest power point created a space where grief felt present, tender, and strangely full of life. We set out to talk about legacy and found a living bridge between ancestry, art-making, and the land that holds us.
Music for ArtStorming was written and performed by John Cruikshank.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:02):
Have you ever wondered what makes creative
people tick?
Where do their ideas come from?
What keeps them energized?
What kinds of things get intheir way?
Is their life really as much funas it looks from the outside?
Hello, I'm your host, LilyPierpont, and this is
Artstorming, a podcast about howideas become paintings or poems,
(00:24):
performances, or collections.
Each episode, I'll chat with aguest from the arts community
and we'll explore how the mostcreative among us stare down a
blank canvas or reach into thevoid and create something new.
In our inaugural season,Artstorming the City Different,
we dipped our toes into the vastocean of creativity with a focus
(00:44):
on some of our favorite creatorsof Santa Fe, New Mexico.
That conversation was enjoyed byartists and non-artists alike
because it showed us how we canall benefit from learning how to
generate something from nothing,dream bigger, charter new
territories, and solve problemsin new ways.
In season two, we're going totake that concept of generating
(01:05):
our lives with intention to thenext level.
This season, we're talking aboutlegacy, art as legacy, and how
the most creative among ustackle this rich and deeply
personal subject.
Welcome to Artstorming, The Artof Remembrance.
I met my next guest, ElizabethFergus Jean, this summer while
(01:28):
visiting magical northernMichigan.
We connected instantly.
Turns out she also spends amonth every year here in Santa
Fe.
But touring her enchanted studionear Lake Michigan was an
otherworldly experience.
I was immediately struck bythese full-size painted memory
boats suspended from theceiling, and her nature-inspired
(01:48):
imagery everywhere.
This cemented my desire to haveher on a future episode of
Artstorming Based on Biophilia.
But then, when I was mentioningthe upcoming season's theme,
Elizabeth shared that she hadcreated an entire body of work
called Veils of Remembrancededicated to the loss of her
mother.
Well, that sealed the deal.
We recorded the episode the verynext day, and then afterward,
(02:12):
walking her mossy labyrinth inthis enchanted forest.
I can't tell you how muchgratitude I felt for the
serendipity that brought ustogether.
I am really excited to be herewith Elizabeth Fergus Hyphen
Jean.
I'm in Harvard Springs,Michigan, and I came to visit
(02:33):
relatives, and of course, I hadto have an introduction to one
of their artist friends.
So we got here yesterday, and ofcourse, I had to have a podcast
with you because this place ismagic.
You called it your dream studio.
So say a little bit just for ourlisteners, because they don't
get the benefit of visuals, butsay a little bit about this
space and how special it is andhow you came to have it.
SPEAKER_00 (02:55):
Well, it is literally my dream studio.
I've been dreaming about havinga big studio with a fireplace in
the woods with a long white,literally a long, windy gravel
road back to it.
Why I don't know, but that'sbeen part of the dream.
And and really, it was basicallya barn sheep that I always saw
(03:20):
in my mind's eye.
And so that was the turret partof it.
So the turret is from that'sreally a nod to Carl Jung in my
depth psych background, depthpsychology background.
So Carl Jung had the BullagingTower, and so that's my tower.
The nod.
And it's a great way.
It's it invites you into thisimagable space.
(03:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
Yeah, it's it's surrounded by windows, I would
say, and it's huge ceilings withthese amazing canoes.
They are canoes, right?
Or some some type of boat shell.
You know, they'll say they're uhwhen I designed these.
SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
And so it's a cross between a sailboat hall and a
canoe hall.
Okay, except for the big one.
And they are I had a local boatbuilder, Steve Van Dam, make the
frames for me.
And then my husband and Istretched them with canvas, and
they were foiling canvas.
SPEAKER_01 (04:22):
And they are suspended from the ceiling, and
it just creates such anotherworldly experience when you
walk in.
Of course, walking into thatround space with the cove with
uh smaller versions of these, sothose smaller ones are called
memory boats.
SPEAKER_00 (04:38):
And they are actually when I began The Veils
of Remembrance, it was dealingwith my personal remembrance and
personal memories, and then Imoved out to community memories
and cultural memories, and thenof course, memory of the land.
And so those pieces are reallytapping into the memory of the
(05:00):
land and wanting the viewers toremember their personal
encounters with being out andexperiencing different parts of
nature because it's so importantthat we have an eye-bow
(05:20):
relationship with our naturalworld.
And I try to with my work toreach through the heart.
It's what matters most to me.
So I'm just wanting to, if youremember, if you Oh, I remember
walking through and seeing allthe oak hydrangeas.
(05:43):
And that just kindles mychildhood.
You're gonna want to take careof what's going on around you,
rather than an I it relationshipwith so many people have.
So those are those small boats,those are all two footboats.
The hulls themselves I designedafter Nordic burial ships.
(06:04):
Really, because they again it'sdealing with environment tending
to the environment.
So it's that shadowy referenceto if we don't tend, it's it's
the burial.
And so they're floating boatsrather than literal boats
(06:27):
because when they're imaginable,right?
And so you it takes you out ofthe literal into that imaginal
realm where you can have yourown encounter with it.
Those boats are actually allthese boats were originally
designed to move with aircurrent so that when you walk
into the space, they move.
(06:49):
And the shadows with thelighting, you know, they kind of
flicker on the walls.
SPEAKER_01 (06:54):
And well, it I love that it sort of talks about the
in the space in between, thosethat liminal space, which is a
word that gets overused.
But in this case, we'reliterally talking about this
space in between life and whatelse comes later or whatever.
Yes.
But what I think is so amazingabout this encounter is that
(07:14):
when I can walked in, obviouslyI was thinking, oh, you'd be a
perfect guest for my biophiliapodcast series, which will be
coming later.
But then we started talkingdeeper, and I told you about our
next series, and you said thatyou had done a whole body of
work that dealt with Death asMuse, which is sort of the theme
for this season.
So say a little bit more,because I haven't had a chance
to look at that series that youdid.
(07:36):
You said it was inspired by thedeath of your mother.
SPEAKER_00 (07:39):
Yes.
So my mom unexpectedly died in2000.
And shortly thereafter, I gotvery injured.
I told you about that backinjury.
And so I couldn't go to mystudio and work on big works
because I was working on largerpieces.
(08:01):
And you're just so it's soincredibly difficult to move
through that.
And what I had from my mom, Ihad photographs, and I had some
of her clothing, and Iphysically couldn't do anything,
(08:24):
and I've worked with Leeans mywhole life.
It's part of the female line, weall work with our hands, and so
I just thought I started takingthese photographs, taking the
photographs of her, and Iprinted them on a material
called polyso, and I thenstarted applying images of my
(08:49):
mother onto articles of herclothing, and then started
beading them, started puttinglace with them.
And as I did that, so the wholetime I'm just every day just
sitting with my mom and working,doing this handwork with there
(09:14):
is an aroma still in theclothes, and these images of my
mom, and they're most of themare when I didn't know her yet.
You know, I hadn't been born,and so I was imagining what was
her life because I hadn't askedher those questions, I didn't
know a lot of the background ofa lot of the images, and so I
(09:37):
was just weaving, it's likeweaving her life, beating her
life, and so I ended up creatinga body of work, and I had a
large museum show a year later,and you know, you always want to
(10:00):
include your most recent work,and so I had some big boats and
yeah, I had work, but that wasmy most recent work, and I
really wanted to include it.
And my husband said, You can'tinclude that, that work is
entirely too personal.
(10:20):
Why would you ever and I'm likeall the only work is personal,
you're always speaking from yourheart, what matters most.
I said, I I need to.
And so it I included in the showwas a lot of people, it was the
work that resonated the mostbecause it was an honoring of an
(10:42):
ancestor.
And from that, I was offeredanother exhibit just on that
work, and so that got me goinginto um my father who passed
away when I was 20, and workingwith his images.
I had one piece of clothing,this old army coat.
(11:04):
My son, who was in art school atthe time, and he's a phenomenal
photographer.
I had these photographs of dadin that coat.
And so I made uh I put the coaton and had my son take studio
shots of me in the coat.
(11:25):
So those are side by side, andso those became pieces.
I found my mom's wedding dress.
So then, you know, there are allthese with me trying on my mom's
wedding dress, and I found herwedding gloves.
Oh, but they didn't fit.
So then I made a piece with aphotograph with the literal
(11:47):
gloves over them because it wasthe only way they fit.
And then I made it, I foundtheir honeymoon pictures, which
I had never heard anything.
So I made a piece about thathoneymoon.
I got I had my grandmother'sveil, I made a piece about my
grandmother's veil.
So a whole body of work was bornout of this, and it was it just
(12:13):
was a beautiful way to honorthem.
SPEAKER_01 (12:15):
And how did it feel to share something so
vulnerable?
SPEAKER_00 (12:19):
Yes.
But it opened up for me I neverknew that how other people would
respond so strongly.
(12:40):
And it really rekindled theirown imaginations and thoughts
about their parents and howcould they do something with
their photographs.
And I've had people who've seenthe shows actually contact me
(13:00):
later and say that they've putsomething together.
So I never expected that, and ofcourse, and um yeah.
It really touched me in a injust unexpected ways.
SPEAKER_01 (13:14):
Well, one of the reasons I wanted to do this
particular series is because Ithink that it's such unexplored
territory and a way for us tocome together in community in
ways that we just don't haveaccess to right now because we
get so I'm gonna say Englishabout the way we what we share
and what we don't share.
Yes, yes.
And this is such, you know, wewe can talk about the you know,
(13:34):
saving the environment, we talkabout all the things, but when
it comes to our our humanity,yeah, it's this like siloed,
contained thing, and we're allso uptight about it.
And it it it just felt likethere was a a barrier that
needed to piercing a veil thatneeded to kind of happen.
And artists are always going tobe the ones that introduce that
(13:57):
conversation.
Yes.
And so I'm so curious to findout all the different ways that
that veil has been pierced.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
It um so one of the things about myself with my work
and this body really shows thatwe're motivated by what matters
most.
And a lot of that is that deep,deep sorrow.
And they're mixed emotions whenyou think about like when your
(14:27):
appearance are snatched early,there's grief, but there's
anger, but there's you justdon't know how to work through
that.
And I do think there's somethingto giving voice to the beautiful
aspects of um of things.
(14:51):
You feel the utter grief, but itdoesn't have to be portrayed
harshly to really communicatethe deep love and memories that
you have.
SPEAKER_01 (15:09):
Yeah, well, and there's this bittersweet quality
though, I think that when yougive yourself permission to go
deep enough into it, it revealslayer after layer.
SPEAKER_00 (15:17):
Yes.
Yeah, and I don't know that Iwould have done that like when
my dad died, it was when it wasI was in art school.
Uh I didn't have the tools to beable to do that at all to go
deep.
Um, and I I did literally canEnglish up, as you said.
(15:40):
You know, I I really didn'toutwardly express that, it
didn't manifest overtly in mywork.
I was embarrassed to cry inpublic.
I'd go into the bathroom stalland cry.
SPEAKER_01 (15:56):
Well had you grown up in a more reserved context?
SPEAKER_00 (16:02):
Or was it was more reserved.
Yeah.
My dad was the big personality.
My mom less uh from she's fromthe South.
So I don't need the same one.
I mean they're they're proper.
SPEAKER_01 (16:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well I think sometimes too,until you get mature, I I lost
both my parents relatively youngas well.
And so I think that, you know,when you there's certain
thresholds that you get to, yes,like when you're the age that
your parents were and youreflect that you've now lived
one year beyond them, two yearsbeyond whatever that is.
And you have such a different,it's a total paradigm shift
(16:39):
because when you were 20something or under 20, you have
a different world view.
And then you get to 40something, 50 something, 60
something, and you keep changingyour so I I I go through
different periods.
My experience is that almostevery decade I have a whole
different vantage point fromwhich to process those losses.
(17:00):
Yes.
Yeah.
And I I feel like a body of worklike you've shared gives people
so at all those differentstages, different opportunities
to go back and revisit that in away that's not so close to, you
know, it's sort of distant, butbut um authentic.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (17:19):
Absolutely.
I mean, I had to do it.
And it's interesting thatbecause I was so injured, I was
so injured, it was my healing ofmy body and my heart by making
this work.
Because it was just in that inthat holding rather than
(17:44):
painting big things.
Um and that it so with with mywork, so much of it it just
flams into me way before it'sbeen made, right?
Interesting.
Like I knew I had to make boatsbefore I even knew how to oil
paint.
I knew they needed to be in oil,so I knew I needed to learn oil.
(18:06):
Um, so I like I've got all theseseries that want to be foreign
that are just waiting, justtweet and just saw my shoulder.
And that were was clearly notpreconceived, was clearly not it
(18:26):
just it was just through.
You know what I mean?
Just sitting on the floor withthose boxes.
Just yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
And so did you have a sense that either of your
parents were with you as youwere working, or was this
something that was sort of yourown independent process?
SPEAKER_00 (18:48):
Well, I think they're always with us, aren't
they?
So I do think that they're withus.
I I don't think that like thenotion of being guided and led
to do certain things.
I didn't have that sense, but Icertainly could feel and
(19:11):
sometimes like you see out ofthe corner of your eye their
shadow fly.
And and they're there and it'smoving.
So I I definitely experiencedthat that I didn't feel yeah, I
(19:32):
just felt like I was doing whatI needed to do.
I it felt like a weavingtogether.
It really felt like a reallyimportant weaving their life
with my life.
Was really coming together andliterally stitching together.
SPEAKER_01 (19:49):
So it was just so do you think your the the depth
psychology component of yourstudy played into that in a way?
Did it give you access?
SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
Because my mom she had a massive stroke, and I was
called the day I was leaving togo at my first dissertation
meeting, which I was flying outto California.
And um Were you at Pacifica?
I went to Pacifica.
(20:23):
That's where I'm also on Caly.
But um so I got a call from mystepfather and he just said,
Your mom just had a massivestroke for they were in North
Carolina and so of course Iimmediately literally
immediately got on a plane.
(20:44):
And so it was uh it was a bigshift for everything because
here I am working on this bigdissertation project and so
everything stopped.
That this my whole life stoppedthat this you know, that
(21:08):
attending to my mom, right?
I was her person, so I stayedwith her until we had to take
her off life support and yeah,and then all I it was all I
could do.
SPEAKER_02 (21:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:28):
Yeah.
And it obviously what it what'svery um tender for me listening
to this story is that clearlyyou processed a lot, but you
processed it obviously in a waythat you still have access to it
because I can feel, you know,the the the sadness that is
still there.
(21:48):
And uh that is such anincredible thing to be able to
share with people, especiallyfor I I'm acknowledging that at
a point in time where you had togo into a stall to express and
and feel those emotions, and yetyou can be so present with it
right now.
I I feel very honored that youfeel safe enough to do that.
(22:10):
Yeah, that's that's beautiful.
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
But yeah, I think it was a gift to be able to do
that.
But it was a gift to to imaginetheir lives, to see my mom
dancing with someone I'd neverseen before, way before she got
married.
And just imagine, I mean, alljust imagining joy and events in
(22:36):
their lives was also it broughtjoy into my life.
So it was a really healingprocess.
SPEAKER_01 (22:42):
And do you have siblings?
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
Were they part of this process?
So I have two older siblings.
And they um it is a curiousquestion, and and the answer is
yeah.
So another question would be howdid they respond to this work?
Because they certainly weren'tinvolved with the work.
And we'll just leave we'll justleave that a mystery.
SPEAKER_01 (23:06):
Excellent.
I love that.
No, I really, I really do, Ireally do, because that is how
it goes, right?
I mean, and and you know, justlike there's the mystery of who
were the people, who was thatman in the picture dancing with
Ma?
Yeah, that's a question we'llnever know the answer to.
And that we have to kind of fillin the pieces.
Yeah.
And that's that's sort of thethat's I don't want to say fun
(23:30):
because that seems to minimizeit, but that's that's sort of
where a lot of magic andpossibility live, right?
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And so when you're teaching, yousaid you are involved with
teaching creativity or have somecreativity process.
Yeah.
So has death become a muse forthat practice?
SPEAKER_00 (23:48):
Well, I really, because of this experience, I
really wanted to do workshopsvery specifically with this
material and to work with peoplewho were moving through grief.
And reached out to a colleagueat Pacifica actually to see if
she wanted to get together to dothat and and work on a book
(24:12):
together.
Timing wasn't right for her.
The timing wasn't right for her.
I think timing wasn't right forher, and and I became very swept
off with needing to give voiceto environmental issues.
It just became very forefront inlarge measure because of this
(24:37):
body of work.
You know, when you're dealingwith death, we're looking at the
deaths of our environment.
And so that work really led intothose small votes and giving
voice to those and yeah, andthen remembrance and and making
(24:59):
pieces about community memoriesand what lasts and what doesn't,
and that type of thing.
SPEAKER_01 (25:07):
Well, I think that that's also really interesting
because my first series wasbased in largely in Santa Fe and
New Mexico, and I've spoken to anumber of Native American
artists, and lineage and legacyis such a huge component of
theirs.
And I've gotten such a muchdeeper appreciation.
As somebody who lost yourparents early, there's not a lot
of continuity in eitherdirection, right?
(25:27):
Right.
And so I have this deepappreciation for cultures that
are much more deeply rooted inthis idea of that they have a
responsibility to theirancestors to live with this kind
of responsibility towards thefuture generations.
And so there's this continuitythat the landscape is such a
(25:48):
perfect expression of, right?
And so we have this, what comesbefore us and what what we're
leaving behind and how we takecare of that whole lineage.
So it's a perfect segue in mymind.
I mean, the two are all reallydeeply related.
And did you grow up in a forest?
Was that part of your childhood?
SPEAKER_00 (26:06):
So I grew up by a ravine and woods, and I was
super duper shy.
My family will tell you I waspainfully shy.
People who know me now can'tbelieve that, but and so the
woods were that was mycompanion, all the trees, all
(26:29):
the exploring.
So I was held from an early ageby the woods, and then we've my
whole life have summered innorthern Michigan, which I
consider my soul home, which iswhy I'm in love, love, love to
be able to finally live hereyear-round.
(26:50):
And so the lake is also, youknow, growing up by the lake.
And the lake just listens.
There's so much wisdom.
We're surrounded by so muchwisdom.
So we just need to listen.
(27:11):
We just need to listen to themas well.
So yes, I was I was clearlybrought up, and I was also
brought up with kind of aninfinite view, and so that's why
in designing the studio, Ireally wanted to make it the
outside the inside.
(27:32):
So yeah, I'm very much at home.
SPEAKER_01 (27:36):
Yeah.
And say a little bit about thestonework that surrounds the
place because there's a thesteps leading up to this dream
cottage are absolutelyphenomenal.
And the stonework around, and Ihappen to know there's a
labyrinth out there somewherewhich I haven't seen, but yes, I
think I might have to check outbefore I leave.
SPEAKER_00 (27:55):
You absolutely have to look at the labyrinth.
Yeah.
You know, you're the firstperson who's ever talked about
the stones.
Are you kidding me?
No one.
SPEAKER_01 (28:05):
How is that possible?
SPEAKER_00 (28:06):
No one has mentioned the stones.
No one.
And it's so interesting becauseI've always collected there,
they're everywhere.
They're they're everywhere.
SPEAKER_01 (28:19):
Yeah, they have that's why I'm so flabbergasted
that nobody's mentioned them.
SPEAKER_00 (28:23):
Yeah.
So they just hold so muchmemory, and there's there's a
narrative in each stone.
It's tumbled through so manymillennial, and so of course you
want to be supported by that.
That energy is just all around.
(28:44):
So yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:46):
And did you select each stone for that fireplace?
SPEAKER_00 (28:49):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
It was really important.
Because the center stone ismagnificent.
Yeah, well, that's a wishingrock.
So you have to have a wishingrock.
Um so you know, I've alwayscalled them wishing rocks, and I
think also that I don't know.
A wishing rock is a rock thathas a band around it.
(29:10):
Uh.
A continuous band.
And then so when you're walkingon the beach and you find a
wishing rock, you hold it yourhand, you make a wit into the
sea or lake, wishes come true.
Yeah, that's the wishing.
SPEAKER_01 (29:26):
So there must be a ton of um wishing stones in in
uh Lake Michigan with yourdreams of creating this this
studio.
There are.
SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
Yeah, there literally are.
Yeah.
Yeah, this the studio is istruly a dream come true.
You never and I was unawarebecause it's all the pieces,
when we were finally able tobuild, you know, to buy some
(29:56):
property.
I was looking for I needed atleast five acres.
And I was looking for a barn,because remember that whole barn
image?
Or acre, you know, some acronym.
And I had my, I had been lookingfor five years, and we finally
were like, okay, now we reallyhave some money together to be
(30:18):
able to do this.
So I came up with my son whotook the photographs, right?
We came up to really do a deepdive up here because I had I
needed to find something.
And this property was had beenlisted.
And I'm like, no, no, this istoo close to my home.
(30:41):
That road does I've never heardof that road.
What are you talking about?
And you know, looking going in,oh, this is actually a road.
And when we drove, it was atwo-track, you couldn't come
back, you had to just drive tothe beginning of the property
and walk back.
My son and I, we were not fivefeet into the property.
(31:03):
We looked at each other, and itwas just we both knew this was
it.
And I mean, it was just therewas no questions, and it felt
like this landed waiting.
So when we built so we startedbuilding two years later, and
(31:29):
the workers, the property hadbeen on the market for 14 years.
Waiting for you for sure.
Waiting for me.
And the workers when they cameback here, and these are people,
this is not a huge community.
So these guys are doing jobs,everybody knows everything.
I said, How did you find this?
(31:52):
How did you find this property?
And I'm like so nobody, it waslike it was cloaked.
It was cloat waiting.
And so yeah, it really felt likethis was really meant to be.
And you can see and the thestags will probably come out,
(32:12):
you know.
SPEAKER_01 (32:13):
We saw a stag yesterday.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (32:14):
There are four that live on property, and two that
are best friends that that comearound together all the time.
SPEAKER_01 (32:21):
Sometimes you see all four together and I know
what they're up to, but well,it's clearly a magic place, but
I'll I want to hear more becausethe stones are so intriguing to
me.
And, you know, you've created alabyrinth back there, and that's
a whole other layer of magic.
It is a layer of mandate.
(32:42):
Obviously, either extracted fromthis place or given to this
place.
I'm not sure how thatrelationship goes, but say a
little bit more about that.
SPEAKER_00 (32:50):
I've been a labyrinth facilitator, right,
since 95, 96.
And I've always wanted alabyrinth.
I mean, before my son wouldliterally mow a labyrinth in our
backyard.
And so uh knowing as much as Ido about labyrinths, I knew I
(33:15):
needed a stone labyrinth, right?
Because we were by the water,and that's the tradition.
When you're buy water to have astone labyrinth.
And so in walking the property,trying to decide where to cite
the structure, I found aPowerPoint on the property.
(33:35):
And so that's where thelabyrinth is.
It's on the ley lines, and itlaid itself out.
I knew the orientation it had tobe.
And so what's interesting aboutthe labyrinth, I actually call
it my acorn labyrinth.
(33:56):
And then again, that's so thereare two nods there.
One is from our home in uh myancestral home in Ohio.
They uh my mom found cookconcretions, which are condensed
minerals.
They're like the pearls of theearth.
And so they are in the, youknow, and they're beautifully
(34:19):
round.
And so I, when she sold, I said,Can I take these?
So I have three, two perfectlyorbs that are on property, with
ones here, one's at the otherplace, and then one that looked
just like an acorn, right?
And um, and then studying devpsychology, James Hillman wrote
(34:42):
the book, The Acorn Theory.
And so the acorn, well, it'sit's not called the acorn
theory, but it's about the acorntheory.
And that's looking at at Platoand the and the notion that
we're born with a daemon, withuh this seed inside us that
we're meant to nourish and grow,and that's what we give back to
(35:06):
the world, right?
That's our life calling.
And I was brought up with that.
That's how I was raised.
To you're born with some, youknow, with this inner ability.
It's your responsibility to tonurture it, become the best that
you can, and give that to theworld.
(35:27):
And so I call it my acorn theorybecause two things, three things
happen back there.
One is it really helpsindividuals when they're not
sure where to go with their lifewhen they walk it, what has
transpired with because it's setin the middle of the woods, it
(35:50):
also uh the woods are catchingin the birds and all the insects
and uh and all the uh thenon-seems they're communicating,
and so you're being held so itopens up individuals to that
relationship.
But the center of the labyrinthis like the ancestral well of
(36:12):
remembrance and it's a powerpoint, and that's where you can
tap into your ancestralknowledge.
It's amazing.
And so that's not I've learnedthat as I walked it, but that
was not a preconceived notionwhen I built it.
(36:36):
That's what's transpired overthe years walking it and it
revealing its story and itsholding.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:47):
So amazing because as I was walking up the
beautiful stone steps surroundedwith ferns and all kinds of
ground cover.
I mean, it's really magical.
There was come that I will getthe name, do you and the forget
me not.
SPEAKER_00 (37:02):
You want to talk about magical what you're seeing
there, and that's just wildforget me not just just going
crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (37:09):
Oh, I I would manage to come back and see that
because as I was walking up thestairs, there was a an acorn
that was the head of you know,the top of an acorn that was
perfectly sort of set in thecrevice of the stone step.
And I almost stopped and took ifI hadn't been running a little
bit late, I would have whippedmy phone out and taken a picture
of it because it was sopicturesque, like you have all
(37:31):
these little people that youhave kind of perched in nooks
and crannies.
It looked like it was literallyplaced there.
And I I'm uh it absolutely madesuch an impression on me.
And here we are talking aboutthe acorn.
Here we are.
SPEAKER_00 (37:43):
And so it knew, and that just happened.
That something's happened,right?
Yeah.
Tree wanted you to acorn wantedyou to see it.
SPEAKER_01 (37:53):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:54):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:55):
So how soon after your mom died did this manifest?
SPEAKER_00 (37:59):
So that was 2000, you said?
Yeah, that was 2000, and so webegan so I was able I f got the
land in 14, began building in16, it was finished in 17.
And um And was your did your sonknow either of your parents?
So only kids knew my mom, noneof my kids Oh right, your dad
(38:23):
died while you were in college.
So knew my dad.
And so they that's I mean, I I'msure you know that's really hard
because he he so defined who Iam.
You know, I'm as an artist, I'muh incredibly driven and in cr
incredibly uh I I have a greatpractice.
(38:46):
You know, I'm very disciplinedwith my practice.
I love it.
It's my it's who I am, but thatthat's so much of my dad, and
that's also embracing is likegiving back to my father and
giving back to my ancestors isthat honoring and and that
respect to them, but that'sstill working as hard as ever.
(39:13):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (39:14):
Yeah, like so yeah.
So did but did your son uh yourson got to know your father, I
would imagine, through thatproject that you did with the
army jacket?
SPEAKER_00 (39:25):
Yes.
So yeah, so I recent and so andthat son Robbie and he did and
um and what I like to do on onmy dad on his birthday is I will
often send pictures of my dad orletters from my dad to me, or
(39:47):
and I do that with about my momwith the kids too.
Just cool tradition.
Yeah, just to give them andyeah, just little threads, you
know, those yeah, to g and tokeep to keep my parents alive in
their minds because my mom wascertainly a big part of their
life, but my dad and mygrandmother was part of their
(40:09):
life too, so yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:11):
And was that your maternal grandmother?
Yes.
Uh-huh.
Was she s in Ohio in Ohio?
Is that she moved.
SPEAKER_00 (40:17):
She was You know, my mom's from Alabama.
Oh, right, you did saysomething.
Yeah, yeah.
And so she when she got sheended up getting double
pneumonia, so she reluctantly inher eighties got moved to Ohio,
a place she never was.
And yeah, so that was great.
(40:37):
That was like hugest gift forall of us because she was like
the dream grandmother and um soit was a gift for my kids to get
us spend time with Baba.
SPEAKER_01 (40:53):
Baba was her name.
Baba.
That's what you call her.
Oh, that's great.
SPEAKER_00 (40:56):
Yeah.
Um so yeah.
Her she still was on.
We every time we would go seeher, we'd always say, Howdy bub.
And so this is a a meanderthread.
Talk about a meander thread.
So I believe I'm I'm clearlyinto ritual.
And so I wanted my uh husband totake the boys on their manhood
(41:22):
trip when they turned 13.
And on the manhood trip, theyfound this big huge curved bear
with the sign howdy on it.
SPEAKER_01 (41:30):
And that was awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (41:32):
That was awful.
So they did this trip in asuburban and they were and so
they brought up the bear back,you know, and some bear in the
suburban.
And so it's at the house out andit's on, it's lived with us ever
since howdy.
And so you can't look at thebear and see, I called my father
(41:52):
bear.
And so, you know, just thosethings are just so important
because it works on youconsciously, but also it's then
it's just a just a thread thatyou're not thinking about, but
there it is, and you know, it'sfun for the kids, and yeah, and
then it's their bear becauseboth boys saw it.
(42:14):
They saw it when my older sonand my husband went out, and
then they my younger son, theydid a similar path, and it was
still for sale.
They bought it at a time.
SPEAKER_01 (42:29):
That is such a great story.
And I love that you talk aboutthreads because you earlier were
talking about sort of the thestitching together of you know
the the the stitching that youdid on the on the pieces of your
mother's clothes.
So that's clearly a a theme.
And it is a theme.
It's a way we it's ametaphorical theme that we talk
about all the time with the warpand weft of life and that.
(42:50):
Yeah, it's just so cool.
Now, are are we on native groundhere?
SPEAKER_00 (42:54):
Was this well I I think so that's an interesting
question because I'm gonna sayuh it has to be, doesn't it?
But I'm also native in that Ifeel so of this land, and as the
(43:16):
quote that's attributed to ChiefSeattle, how can you buy or sell
this guy?
This idea is strange.
It's none of us own the land,it's it's in my DNA.
So, yes, there were clearlypeoples who lived here before
(43:37):
this life of my life, right?
But we're all related, and sothere's stories held in the land
that clearly percolate up intomy work, and so I'm giving voice
to stories that are so beyond mycapability of memory and
(44:01):
remembrance that are justtapping in by being here.
Yeah.
And and honoring because a hugepart of it see you know, you
nuts like from goosebow police.
Everybody wants to be seen.
(44:23):
All the trees want to be seen.
The mushrooms want to be seen,the birds want to be seen, you
want to be seen, I want to beseen, and we will we want that
to be valued and heard andhonored.
And so when you just move intothat type of relationship with
(44:44):
your work with everything, youinevitably it's like how we've
clicked.
There's so many of ournarratives, our threads, they're
just like uncanny.
And it's just you we're broughttogether, but we're we've also
somehow opened up to each otherthat that's what's revealing
(45:06):
itself.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:10):
Well, it it ties back to what you said earlier
about you know, when you aren'tother, like when you become one
with something and there is noother.
So you know, at a metaphysicallevel, it's like that all
unified field of consciousness,which ties back to, you know,
(45:30):
your depth psychology stuff.
And the if you know it's it'sreally uh obviously that's a a
passion of mine as well.
So we could go there a lot.
And you know, one of the thingsI'm kind of excited about,
you're the first person I'vespoken to in season two, this
whole, you know, uh, the art ofremembrance.
Yeah.
And you've used so many of thebuzzwords that I that have
(45:54):
captured my imagination toinform this next season.
And I kind of have to leave itopen to where the season's gonna
take me.
I have my ideas of where it'sgonna go.
But one of the things that Ilearned from talking to so many
artists is sometimes you justhave to surrender to the
process.
And so I'm just gonna let theseconversations kind of go where
they go and see where it takesme.
(46:14):
And I I have some some concreteideas for it, but um, I'm just
so delighted that it's this isthe kickoff.
I mean, it couldn't it couldn'tbe any more perfectly timed.
And I I took this trip, I I cameeast to go visit family, and
then I came up here to see morefamily, but I'd never been to
this part of the world before.
(46:35):
And whenever I'm starting a newchapter, I really like to do
something completely new as aritual for myself.
Yes, and cross-country roadtrips are easy, low-hanging
fruit for me at this stage.
I mean, I I wasn't able to go tosome far-flung destination, but
just coming up to this part ofthe world, which is so new to
(46:56):
me.
And so, and here we are.
I feel like the lesson iswhenever you take a chance and
swing out, yes you know, theworld just sort of Yes.
It opens up the intuition.
Well, it was a total invitationon my part.
This is this is the new patternthat I've learned from all so
many artists is to justsurrender to the to the space in
between.
SPEAKER_00 (47:16):
Absolutely.
It's like having your ear to theground, right?
Feeling the pulse, listening.
And then responding.
Even when you don't know whereyou're going, you don't know
where it's leading.
It's just having the faith totake the leap.
SPEAKER_01 (47:40):
Yeah.
And that's another reason that II started this whole podcast
series is because I may havementioned I used to do art
travel and then that gotinterrupted by COVID.
And I wanted to createconversations with people who
were at that stage of their lifewhere they weren't sure, you
know, empty nest or women orwhatever.
People were just at that at acrossroads.
And I thought introducing peoplethose people to artists who
(48:02):
stare down a blank canvas everyday is to kind of help them
learn the muscle to how you yougenerate your life from nothing.
Yes.
And sharing them now that thispodcast format allows me to
share it with a much largeraudience than I would have been
(48:23):
able to do with my art travel.
So it's amazing to me how muchit's landing and how much it's
stimulating.
I get a lot of feedback, whichis so satisfying that, oh, I
picked up a paintbrush for thefirst time in 20 years because
they were inspired by one of theartists that I spoke to.
And it's that's that whole ideaof reconnecting with the greater
(48:44):
community, helping us feel lessisolated in our world.
And the beauty of I wanteverybody to have access to the
experience that we had yesterdaywhere I just walked in here and
it was like you know, thefireworks of connections.
And it was just so it was forme, it was really magic.
No, it was.
It was amazing.
Yeah, yeah.
So I mean, that's kind of bringsus all full circle.
(49:08):
And um, yeah, so I have no, I'mon my way back.
I'm gonna make one or two pitstops and we'll see what magic
happens then.
But other than that, we're thisis just sort of the beginning of
whatever circle.
So I'm kind of I want to bringit back to a labyrinth.
I don't know if all labyrinthsare constructed like this, but
I'm talking to the right personto answer me.
(49:28):
But in the Shaw labyrinth, yougo pretty straight in pretty
quickly.
You think you're gonna get tothe center pretty quickly, and
then all of a sudden it spinsyou out again, and then it takes
a long time to get actually backto the center before you start
your retreat back out.
Is that the nature oflabyrinths?
SPEAKER_00 (49:45):
So do you always Well that's the nature of the
unicursal labyrinths?
There are two types oflabyrinths.
There's unicursal, which is onepath then, one path out, and
multicursal, which is ourlabyrinths with dead ends,
false.
Oh that was more like the theminotaur labyrinth with the
Absolutely Okay.
(50:06):
So what's interesting about thatthough, when it's portrayed on
coins, it's a unicursal.
So you often, when you readabout labyrinths, they'll be
multicursal, they'll be with thedead ends and the false turns.
Today, we've really lost the useof those two words.
So we typically think of amulticursal as a maze, right?
(50:30):
Like a corn maze, right, right.
Hedge maze.
Right.
And we think of the wordlabyrinth representing a
universal labyrinth, the onepath in, one path out.
And what's amazing about them isthat from the outside, you see
the beautiful pattern that theycreate.
(50:50):
They're geometric, they'regorgeous, right?
But when you're in it, there isa feeling of chaos.
You're not quite sure where youare in the path.
So it's a metaphor for one'sjourney through life.
You know, you're just takingthat next step, next step until
you get to the center, right?
(51:12):
And so you're following, so youyou don't necessarily see the
the path as a whole, but whenyou're but the the but the
former has a lot more hope.
SPEAKER_01 (51:23):
I mean, the idea that you're going to eventually
get to the center.
Yeah, you're getting to thecenter.
But if if in the other, in thealternative, if there are starts
and stops, right, it's it's likea life that gets interrupted or
something.
What would what was the theorybehind those?
SPEAKER_00 (51:40):
And well, that's the way I mean they're so they're um
archetypal forms that are thatare found in every culture.
And so y we could easily saythat they are metaphors for
different journeys through life.
And we all know plenty of peoplewho have, for one reason or
(52:00):
another, been stopped and havenot been able to figure their
way through um every event of soWow.
SPEAKER_01 (52:09):
And so how is there a relationship?
That's really a lot for me tothink about right now.
I gotta collect myself for aminute because you know,
obviously, you think about thepeople who die young, like my
mother and so many people asbeing on this that type of
labyrinth.
SPEAKER_00 (52:23):
And I So I I would not I would not necessarily
agree with that.
Oh, so say more.
Because she lived her life.
And she lived, I imagine, whenshe was here full life.
And so her journey was what itwas supposed to be.
Um not the journey that maybeyou want and or her had hoped
(52:47):
for.
But a little I think the lifeinterrupted, the life stopped.
This is a real this is a deepdive, right?
This is we're segueing here bigtime.
Would be where people have hadjust come to events where
(53:09):
they've not been able to figureout how to continue on, right?
And right, it becomeslabyrinthian and hard to
navigate.
SPEAKER_01 (53:23):
So in that second kind of labyrinth is at at when
you get to the dead end, can youyou can absolutely find your
way, you can find a new way.
SPEAKER_00 (53:32):
So it's really more of a you can always find your
way to the center and you canalways find your way out.
SPEAKER_01 (53:39):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (53:40):
You can always find your way.
You can always find your way.
You can always find your way.
Sometimes it's a much morechallenging adventure because
it's like, well, this didn'twork.
Let's let's try something new.
Let's go back and take adifferent path, and then you go,
(54:03):
and maybe you continue to makecorrect turns so you get to the
center, but maybe you don't.
And so then you end up atanother dead end.
So then you have the courage toturn around, go back a little
bit, and then you you go theother way.
SPEAKER_01 (54:24):
And well, I mean, that happens definitely looks
more like that too.
SPEAKER_00 (54:27):
I think most people's lives look like that.
Certainly within creativity,that happens all the time in the
studio.
Sure.
You know you're makingsomething, and then that didn't
work.
Right, right, right.
And so you adjust, you know,you're nimble.
Yeah.
And so in a lot of ways, yes,everyone's life, most people's
(54:51):
lives, are going to be that typeof journey.
You still can get to the centerand you still can get out.
But it takes courage andnimbleness.
SPEAKER_01 (55:01):
And giving yourself permission, which is I think
another theme that came up outof the first uh season, was that
the artists who are successfulare constantly giving themselves
permission to do to pivot and tokind of start something new.
And that you know, once you'reon a path, you don't have to go
there and beat your head againstthe wall if it's not working.
SPEAKER_00 (55:22):
Absolutely.
You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (55:23):
And I think that's a really important metaphor for
life in general.
SPEAKER_00 (55:27):
The the universal labyrinth, where people
typically think of as thelabyrinth, it's why it's been
embodied so much within the past30 years as a form of
meditation.
Because you really are stayingon a path.
And that makes so much sense.
SPEAKER_01 (55:46):
Because monkey mind is the other one.
I mean, I'm constantly bumpingup the start again, start again,
start again.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (55:53):
Yeah.
And so it's really good to havea labyrinth.
And so it doesn't have to needto be a literal labyrinth, but
going for a walk in the wounds,going for a walk along the lake,
to be able to allow your sensesand your body to kind of unwind
and tether, and you just allowyourself to get back into your
(56:18):
own rhythm, right?
So it helps attune yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (56:24):
Yeah.
Which sounds like sort of whatyou did with the project to
bring us full circle.
The the project that you didwith your around your mother's
loss of your mother.
It was a way for you to justkind of, you know, focus and get
yourself back.
And so was the healing of yourback uh ultimately consistent
with when the project wasterminated?
(56:44):
Were they were they around thesame time?
SPEAKER_00 (56:47):
How did you decide that the project was so what
happened, like I said, the theone project took a year?
And so I was significantlybetter because I had surgery and
in the beginning part of thatsoon after my mom died.
And so the surgery was verysuccessful.
(57:08):
And so my um but it takes a longtime to heal your bad.
And so because I was asked to dothis other show, it opened up
another door for me to engage inmaterial, and that just kind of
kept going.
And that door has not closed,because it's still just right
(57:29):
there.
It still feels like that thesurrounding here has they're
demanding I give voice to them,the enchanted forest, and really
giving voice.
They're they want to be seen.
SPEAKER_01 (57:45):
So well, it sounds like with that first body of
work you completed an octave andthen you kind of entered into
the next octave.
SPEAKER_00 (57:52):
Yes.
And it felt like it was, youknow, one of the things about
art exhibits that are sowonderful for artists is that
you get the body of worktogether and there is a feeling,
there is a feeling of closure.
And so when I had that uh secondexhibit around that body of
work, it was enough for mypsyche to go, okay.
(58:15):
And so even though I continuedto do some pieces, there was a
real settling that allowed me tothen open up to other projects,
you know, and other images thatwanted to be birthed.
And so yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (58:29):
Yeah.
Well, that's cool.
Well, I hope this is thebeginning of a new octave for
us.
And yes, yay.
And I believe you ended there.
It was just absolutely worth it.
Thank you so much.
Just been awesome.
Incredible.
Love talking with you.
Thank you.
So thanks for joining us today.
Artstorming is brought to youand supported by Artbridge and M
(58:52):
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(59:14):
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(59:36):
you so much for being anessential part of our work.
Have you ever wondered what makes creative
people tick?
Where do their ideas come from?
What keeps them energized?
What kinds of things get intheir way?
Is their life really as much funas it looks from the outside?
Hello, I'm your host, LilyPierpont, and this is
Artstorming, a podcast about howideas become paintings or poems,
(00:24):
performances, or collections.
Each episode, I'll chat with aguest from the arts community
and we'll explore how the mostcreative among us stare down a
blank canvas or reach into thevoid and create something new.
In our inaugural season,Artstorming the City Different,
we dipped our toes into the vastocean of creativity with a focus
(00:44):
on some of our favorite creatorsof Santa Fe, New Mexico.
That conversation was enjoyed byartists and non-artists alike
because it showed us how we canall benefit from learning how to
generate something from nothing,dream bigger, charter new
territories, and solve problemsin new ways.
In season two, we're going totake that concept of generating
(01:05):
our lives with intention to thenext level.
This season, we're talking aboutlegacy, art as legacy, and how
the most creative among ustackle this rich and deeply
personal subject.
Welcome to Artstorming, The Artof Remembrance.
I met my next guest, ElizabethFergus Jean, this summer while
(01:28):
visiting magical northernMichigan.
We connected instantly.
Turns out she also spends amonth every year here in Santa
Fe.
But touring her enchanted studionear Lake Michigan was an
otherworldly experience.
I was immediately struck bythese full-size painted memory
boats suspended from theceiling, and her nature-inspired
(01:48):
imagery everywhere.
This cemented my desire to haveher on a future episode of
Artstorming Based on Biophilia.
But then, when I was mentioningthe upcoming season's theme,
Elizabeth shared that she hadcreated an entire body of work
called Veils of Remembrancededicated to the loss of her
mother.
Well, that sealed the deal.
We recorded the episode the verynext day, and then afterward,
(02:12):
walking her mossy labyrinth inthis enchanted forest.
I can't tell you how muchgratitude I felt for the
serendipity that brought ustogether.
I am really excited to be herewith Elizabeth Fergus Hyphen
Jean.
I'm in Harvard Springs,Michigan, and I came to visit
(02:33):
relatives, and of course, I hadto have an introduction to one
of their artist friends.
So we got here yesterday, and ofcourse, I had to have a podcast
with you because this place ismagic.
You called it your dream studio.
So say a little bit just for ourlisteners, because they don't
get the benefit of visuals, butsay a little bit about this
space and how special it is andhow you came to have it.
SPEAKER_00 (02:55):
Well, it is literally my dream studio.
I've been dreaming about havinga big studio with a fireplace in
the woods with a long white,literally a long, windy gravel
road back to it.
Why I don't know, but that'sbeen part of the dream.
And and really, it was basicallya barn sheep that I always saw
(03:20):
in my mind's eye.
And so that was the turret partof it.
So the turret is from that'sreally a nod to Carl Jung in my
depth psych background, depthpsychology background.
So Carl Jung had the BullagingTower, and so that's my tower.
The nod.
And it's a great way.
It's it invites you into thisimagable space.
(03:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
Yeah, it's it's surrounded by windows, I would
say, and it's huge ceilings withthese amazing canoes.
They are canoes, right?
Or some some type of boat shell.
You know, they'll say they're uhwhen I designed these.
SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
And so it's a cross between a sailboat hall and a
canoe hall.
Okay, except for the big one.
And they are I had a local boatbuilder, Steve Van Dam, make the
frames for me.
And then my husband and Istretched them with canvas, and
they were foiling canvas.
SPEAKER_01 (04:22):
And they are suspended from the ceiling, and
it just creates such anotherworldly experience when you
walk in.
Of course, walking into thatround space with the cove with
uh smaller versions of these, sothose smaller ones are called
memory boats.
SPEAKER_00 (04:38):
And they are actually when I began The Veils
of Remembrance, it was dealingwith my personal remembrance and
personal memories, and then Imoved out to community memories
and cultural memories, and thenof course, memory of the land.
And so those pieces are reallytapping into the memory of the
(05:00):
land and wanting the viewers toremember their personal
encounters with being out andexperiencing different parts of
nature because it's so importantthat we have an eye-bow
(05:20):
relationship with our naturalworld.
And I try to with my work toreach through the heart.
It's what matters most to me.
So I'm just wanting to, if youremember, if you Oh, I remember
walking through and seeing allthe oak hydrangeas.
(05:43):
And that just kindles mychildhood.
You're gonna want to take careof what's going on around you,
rather than an I it relationshipwith so many people have.
So those are those small boats,those are all two footboats.
The hulls themselves I designedafter Nordic burial ships.
(06:04):
Really, because they again it'sdealing with environment tending
to the environment.
So it's that shadowy referenceto if we don't tend, it's it's
the burial.
And so they're floating boatsrather than literal boats
(06:27):
because when they're imaginable,right?
And so you it takes you out ofthe literal into that imaginal
realm where you can have yourown encounter with it.
Those boats are actually allthese boats were originally
designed to move with aircurrent so that when you walk
into the space, they move.
(06:49):
And the shadows with thelighting, you know, they kind of
flicker on the walls.
SPEAKER_01 (06:54):
And well, it I love that it sort of talks about the
in the space in between, thosethat liminal space, which is a
word that gets overused.
But in this case, we'reliterally talking about this
space in between life and whatelse comes later or whatever.
Yes.
But what I think is so amazingabout this encounter is that
(07:14):
when I can walked in, obviouslyI was thinking, oh, you'd be a
perfect guest for my biophiliapodcast series, which will be
coming later.
But then we started talkingdeeper, and I told you about our
next series, and you said thatyou had done a whole body of
work that dealt with Death asMuse, which is sort of the theme
for this season.
So say a little bit more,because I haven't had a chance
to look at that series that youdid.
(07:36):
You said it was inspired by thedeath of your mother.
SPEAKER_00 (07:39):
Yes.
So my mom unexpectedly died in2000.
And shortly thereafter, I gotvery injured.
I told you about that backinjury.
And so I couldn't go to mystudio and work on big works
because I was working on largerpieces.
(08:01):
And you're just so it's soincredibly difficult to move
through that.
And what I had from my mom, Ihad photographs, and I had some
of her clothing, and Iphysically couldn't do anything,
(08:24):
and I've worked with Leeans mywhole life.
It's part of the female line, weall work with our hands, and so
I just thought I started takingthese photographs, taking the
photographs of her, and Iprinted them on a material
called polyso, and I thenstarted applying images of my
(08:49):
mother onto articles of herclothing, and then started
beading them, started puttinglace with them.
And as I did that, so the wholetime I'm just every day just
sitting with my mom and working,doing this handwork with there
(09:14):
is an aroma still in theclothes, and these images of my
mom, and they're most of themare when I didn't know her yet.
You know, I hadn't been born,and so I was imagining what was
her life because I hadn't askedher those questions, I didn't
know a lot of the background ofa lot of the images, and so I
(09:37):
was just weaving, it's likeweaving her life, beating her
life, and so I ended up creatinga body of work, and I had a
large museum show a year later,and you know, you always want to
(10:00):
include your most recent work,and so I had some big boats and
yeah, I had work, but that wasmy most recent work, and I
really wanted to include it.
And my husband said, You can'tinclude that, that work is
entirely too personal.
(10:20):
Why would you ever and I'm likeall the only work is personal,
you're always speaking from yourheart, what matters most.
I said, I I need to.
And so it I included in the showwas a lot of people, it was the
work that resonated the mostbecause it was an honoring of an
(10:42):
ancestor.
And from that, I was offeredanother exhibit just on that
work, and so that got me goinginto um my father who passed
away when I was 20, and workingwith his images.
I had one piece of clothing,this old army coat.
(11:04):
My son, who was in art school atthe time, and he's a phenomenal
photographer.
I had these photographs of dadin that coat.
And so I made uh I put the coaton and had my son take studio
shots of me in the coat.
(11:25):
So those are side by side, andso those became pieces.
I found my mom's wedding dress.
So then, you know, there are allthese with me trying on my mom's
wedding dress, and I found herwedding gloves.
Oh, but they didn't fit.
So then I made a piece with aphotograph with the literal
(11:47):
gloves over them because it wasthe only way they fit.
And then I made it, I foundtheir honeymoon pictures, which
I had never heard anything.
So I made a piece about thathoneymoon.
I got I had my grandmother'sveil, I made a piece about my
grandmother's veil.
So a whole body of work was bornout of this, and it was it just
(12:13):
was a beautiful way to honorthem.
SPEAKER_01 (12:15):
And how did it feel to share something so
vulnerable?
SPEAKER_00 (12:19):
Yes.
But it opened up for me I neverknew that how other people would
respond so strongly.
(12:40):
And it really rekindled theirown imaginations and thoughts
about their parents and howcould they do something with
their photographs.
And I've had people who've seenthe shows actually contact me
(13:00):
later and say that they've putsomething together.
So I never expected that, and ofcourse, and um yeah.
It really touched me in a injust unexpected ways.
SPEAKER_01 (13:14):
Well, one of the reasons I wanted to do this
particular series is because Ithink that it's such unexplored
territory and a way for us tocome together in community in
ways that we just don't haveaccess to right now because we
get so I'm gonna say Englishabout the way we what we share
and what we don't share.
Yes, yes.
And this is such, you know, wewe can talk about the you know,
(13:34):
saving the environment, we talkabout all the things, but when
it comes to our our humanity,yeah, it's this like siloed,
contained thing, and we're allso uptight about it.
And it it it just felt likethere was a a barrier that
needed to piercing a veil thatneeded to kind of happen.
And artists are always going tobe the ones that introduce that
(13:57):
conversation.
Yes.
And so I'm so curious to findout all the different ways that
that veil has been pierced.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
It um so one of the things about myself with my work
and this body really shows thatwe're motivated by what matters
most.
And a lot of that is that deep,deep sorrow.
And they're mixed emotions whenyou think about like when your
(14:27):
appearance are snatched early,there's grief, but there's
anger, but there's you justdon't know how to work through
that.
And I do think there's somethingto giving voice to the beautiful
aspects of um of things.
(14:51):
You feel the utter grief, but itdoesn't have to be portrayed
harshly to really communicatethe deep love and memories that
you have.
SPEAKER_01 (15:09):
Yeah, well, and there's this bittersweet quality
though, I think that when yougive yourself permission to go
deep enough into it, it revealslayer after layer.
SPEAKER_00 (15:17):
Yes.
Yeah, and I don't know that Iwould have done that like when
my dad died, it was when it wasI was in art school.
Uh I didn't have the tools to beable to do that at all to go
deep.
Um, and I I did literally canEnglish up, as you said.
(15:40):
You know, I I really didn'toutwardly express that, it
didn't manifest overtly in mywork.
I was embarrassed to cry inpublic.
I'd go into the bathroom stalland cry.
SPEAKER_01 (15:56):
Well had you grown up in a more reserved context?
SPEAKER_00 (16:02):
Or was it was more reserved.
Yeah.
My dad was the big personality.
My mom less uh from she's fromthe South.
So I don't need the same one.
I mean they're they're proper.
SPEAKER_01 (16:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well I think sometimes too,until you get mature, I I lost
both my parents relatively youngas well.
And so I think that, you know,when you there's certain
thresholds that you get to, yes,like when you're the age that
your parents were and youreflect that you've now lived
one year beyond them, two yearsbeyond whatever that is.
And you have such a different,it's a total paradigm shift
(16:39):
because when you were 20something or under 20, you have
a different world view.
And then you get to 40something, 50 something, 60
something, and you keep changingyour so I I I go through
different periods.
My experience is that almostevery decade I have a whole
different vantage point fromwhich to process those losses.
(17:00):
Yes.
Yeah.
And I I feel like a body of worklike you've shared gives people
so at all those differentstages, different opportunities
to go back and revisit that in away that's not so close to, you
know, it's sort of distant, butbut um authentic.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (17:19):
Absolutely.
I mean, I had to do it.
And it's interesting thatbecause I was so injured, I was
so injured, it was my healing ofmy body and my heart by making
this work.
Because it was just in that inthat holding rather than
(17:44):
painting big things.
Um and that it so with with mywork, so much of it it just
flams into me way before it'sbeen made, right?
Interesting.
Like I knew I had to make boatsbefore I even knew how to oil
paint.
I knew they needed to be in oil,so I knew I needed to learn oil.
(18:06):
Um, so I like I've got all theseseries that want to be foreign
that are just waiting, justtweet and just saw my shoulder.
And that were was clearly notpreconceived, was clearly not it
(18:26):
just it was just through.
You know what I mean?
Just sitting on the floor withthose boxes.
Just yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
And so did you have a sense that either of your
parents were with you as youwere working, or was this
something that was sort of yourown independent process?
SPEAKER_00 (18:48):
Well, I think they're always with us, aren't
they?
So I do think that they're withus.
I I don't think that like thenotion of being guided and led
to do certain things.
I didn't have that sense, but Icertainly could feel and
(19:11):
sometimes like you see out ofthe corner of your eye their
shadow fly.
And and they're there and it'smoving.
So I I definitely experiencedthat that I didn't feel yeah, I
(19:32):
just felt like I was doing whatI needed to do.
I it felt like a weavingtogether.
It really felt like a reallyimportant weaving their life
with my life.
Was really coming together andliterally stitching together.
SPEAKER_01 (19:49):
So it was just so do you think your the the depth
psychology component of yourstudy played into that in a way?
Did it give you access?
SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
Because my mom she had a massive stroke, and I was
called the day I was leaving togo at my first dissertation
meeting, which I was flying outto California.
And um Were you at Pacifica?
I went to Pacifica.
(20:23):
That's where I'm also on Caly.
But um so I got a call from mystepfather and he just said,
Your mom just had a massivestroke for they were in North
Carolina and so of course Iimmediately literally
immediately got on a plane.
(20:44):
And so it was uh it was a bigshift for everything because
here I am working on this bigdissertation project and so
everything stopped.
That this my whole life stoppedthat this you know, that
(21:08):
attending to my mom, right?
I was her person, so I stayedwith her until we had to take
her off life support and yeah,and then all I it was all I
could do.
SPEAKER_02 (21:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:28):
Yeah.
And it obviously what it what'svery um tender for me listening
to this story is that clearlyyou processed a lot, but you
processed it obviously in a waythat you still have access to it
because I can feel, you know,the the the sadness that is
still there.
(21:48):
And uh that is such anincredible thing to be able to
share with people, especiallyfor I I'm acknowledging that at
a point in time where you had togo into a stall to express and
and feel those emotions, and yetyou can be so present with it
right now.
I I feel very honored that youfeel safe enough to do that.
(22:10):
Yeah, that's that's beautiful.
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
But yeah, I think it was a gift to be able to do
that.
But it was a gift to to imaginetheir lives, to see my mom
dancing with someone I'd neverseen before, way before she got
married.
And just imagine, I mean, alljust imagining joy and events in
(22:36):
their lives was also it broughtjoy into my life.
So it was a really healingprocess.
SPEAKER_01 (22:42):
And do you have siblings?
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
Were they part of this process?
So I have two older siblings.
And they um it is a curiousquestion, and and the answer is
yeah.
So another question would be howdid they respond to this work?
Because they certainly weren'tinvolved with the work.
And we'll just leave we'll justleave that a mystery.
SPEAKER_01 (23:06):
Excellent.
I love that.
No, I really, I really do, Ireally do, because that is how
it goes, right?
I mean, and and you know, justlike there's the mystery of who
were the people, who was thatman in the picture dancing with
Ma?
Yeah, that's a question we'llnever know the answer to.
And that we have to kind of fillin the pieces.
Yeah.
And that's that's sort of thethat's I don't want to say fun
(23:30):
because that seems to minimizeit, but that's that's sort of
where a lot of magic andpossibility live, right?
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And so when you're teaching, yousaid you are involved with
teaching creativity or have somecreativity process.
Yeah.
So has death become a muse forthat practice?
SPEAKER_00 (23:48):
Well, I really, because of this experience, I
really wanted to do workshopsvery specifically with this
material and to work with peoplewho were moving through grief.
And reached out to a colleagueat Pacifica actually to see if
she wanted to get together to dothat and and work on a book
(24:12):
together.
Timing wasn't right for her.
The timing wasn't right for her.
I think timing wasn't right forher, and and I became very swept
off with needing to give voiceto environmental issues.
It just became very forefront inlarge measure because of this
(24:37):
body of work.
You know, when you're dealingwith death, we're looking at the
deaths of our environment.
And so that work really led intothose small votes and giving
voice to those and yeah, andthen remembrance and and making
(24:59):
pieces about community memoriesand what lasts and what doesn't,
and that type of thing.
SPEAKER_01 (25:07):
Well, I think that that's also really interesting
because my first series wasbased in largely in Santa Fe and
New Mexico, and I've spoken to anumber of Native American
artists, and lineage and legacyis such a huge component of
theirs.
And I've gotten such a muchdeeper appreciation.
As somebody who lost yourparents early, there's not a lot
of continuity in eitherdirection, right?
(25:27):
Right.
And so I have this deepappreciation for cultures that
are much more deeply rooted inthis idea of that they have a
responsibility to theirancestors to live with this kind
of responsibility towards thefuture generations.
And so there's this continuitythat the landscape is such a
(25:48):
perfect expression of, right?
And so we have this, what comesbefore us and what what we're
leaving behind and how we takecare of that whole lineage.
So it's a perfect segue in mymind.
I mean, the two are all reallydeeply related.
And did you grow up in a forest?
Was that part of your childhood?
SPEAKER_00 (26:06):
So I grew up by a ravine and woods, and I was
super duper shy.
My family will tell you I waspainfully shy.
People who know me now can'tbelieve that, but and so the
woods were that was mycompanion, all the trees, all
(26:29):
the exploring.
So I was held from an early ageby the woods, and then we've my
whole life have summered innorthern Michigan, which I
consider my soul home, which iswhy I'm in love, love, love to
be able to finally live hereyear-round.
(26:50):
And so the lake is also, youknow, growing up by the lake.
And the lake just listens.
There's so much wisdom.
We're surrounded by so muchwisdom.
So we just need to listen.
(27:11):
We just need to listen to themas well.
So yes, I was I was clearlybrought up, and I was also
brought up with kind of aninfinite view, and so that's why
in designing the studio, Ireally wanted to make it the
outside the inside.
(27:32):
So yeah, I'm very much at home.
SPEAKER_01 (27:36):
Yeah.
And say a little bit about thestonework that surrounds the
place because there's a thesteps leading up to this dream
cottage are absolutelyphenomenal.
And the stonework around, and Ihappen to know there's a
labyrinth out there somewherewhich I haven't seen, but yes, I
think I might have to check outbefore I leave.
SPEAKER_00 (27:55):
You absolutely have to look at the labyrinth.
Yeah.
You know, you're the firstperson who's ever talked about
the stones.
Are you kidding me?
No one.
SPEAKER_01 (28:05):
How is that possible?
SPEAKER_00 (28:06):
No one has mentioned the stones.
No one.
And it's so interesting becauseI've always collected there,
they're everywhere.
They're they're everywhere.
SPEAKER_01 (28:19):
Yeah, they have that's why I'm so flabbergasted
that nobody's mentioned them.
SPEAKER_00 (28:23):
Yeah.
So they just hold so muchmemory, and there's there's a
narrative in each stone.
It's tumbled through so manymillennial, and so of course you
want to be supported by that.
That energy is just all around.
(28:44):
So yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:46):
And did you select each stone for that fireplace?
SPEAKER_00 (28:49):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
It was really important.
Because the center stone ismagnificent.
Yeah, well, that's a wishingrock.
So you have to have a wishingrock.
Um so you know, I've alwayscalled them wishing rocks, and I
think also that I don't know.
A wishing rock is a rock thathas a band around it.
(29:10):
Uh.
A continuous band.
And then so when you're walkingon the beach and you find a
wishing rock, you hold it yourhand, you make a wit into the
sea or lake, wishes come true.
Yeah, that's the wishing.
SPEAKER_01 (29:26):
So there must be a ton of um wishing stones in in
uh Lake Michigan with yourdreams of creating this this
studio.
There are.
SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
Yeah, there literally are.
Yeah.
Yeah, this the studio is istruly a dream come true.
You never and I was unawarebecause it's all the pieces,
when we were finally able tobuild, you know, to buy some
(29:56):
property.
I was looking for I needed atleast five acres.
And I was looking for a barn,because remember that whole barn
image?
Or acre, you know, some acronym.
And I had my, I had been lookingfor five years, and we finally
were like, okay, now we reallyhave some money together to be
(30:18):
able to do this.
So I came up with my son whotook the photographs, right?
We came up to really do a deepdive up here because I had I
needed to find something.
And this property was had beenlisted.
And I'm like, no, no, this istoo close to my home.
(30:41):
That road does I've never heardof that road.
What are you talking about?
And you know, looking going in,oh, this is actually a road.
And when we drove, it was atwo-track, you couldn't come
back, you had to just drive tothe beginning of the property
and walk back.
My son and I, we were not fivefeet into the property.
(31:03):
We looked at each other, and itwas just we both knew this was
it.
And I mean, it was just therewas no questions, and it felt
like this landed waiting.
So when we built so we startedbuilding two years later, and
(31:29):
the workers, the property hadbeen on the market for 14 years.
Waiting for you for sure.
Waiting for me.
And the workers when they cameback here, and these are people,
this is not a huge community.
So these guys are doing jobs,everybody knows everything.
I said, How did you find this?
(31:52):
How did you find this property?
And I'm like so nobody, it waslike it was cloaked.
It was cloat waiting.
And so yeah, it really felt likethis was really meant to be.
And you can see and the thestags will probably come out,
(32:12):
you know.
SPEAKER_01 (32:13):
We saw a stag yesterday.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (32:14):
There are four that live on property, and two that
are best friends that that comearound together all the time.
SPEAKER_01 (32:21):
Sometimes you see all four together and I know
what they're up to, but well,it's clearly a magic place, but
I'll I want to hear more becausethe stones are so intriguing to
me.
And, you know, you've created alabyrinth back there, and that's
a whole other layer of magic.
It is a layer of mandate.
(32:42):
Obviously, either extracted fromthis place or given to this
place.
I'm not sure how thatrelationship goes, but say a
little bit more about that.
SPEAKER_00 (32:50):
I've been a labyrinth facilitator, right,
since 95, 96.
And I've always wanted alabyrinth.
I mean, before my son wouldliterally mow a labyrinth in our
backyard.
And so uh knowing as much as Ido about labyrinths, I knew I
(33:15):
needed a stone labyrinth, right?
Because we were by the water,and that's the tradition.
When you're buy water to have astone labyrinth.
And so in walking the property,trying to decide where to cite
the structure, I found aPowerPoint on the property.
(33:35):
And so that's where thelabyrinth is.
It's on the ley lines, and itlaid itself out.
I knew the orientation it had tobe.
And so what's interesting aboutthe labyrinth, I actually call
it my acorn labyrinth.
(33:56):
And then again, that's so thereare two nods there.
One is from our home in uh myancestral home in Ohio.
They uh my mom found cookconcretions, which are condensed
minerals.
They're like the pearls of theearth.
And so they are in the, youknow, and they're beautifully
(34:19):
round.
And so I, when she sold, I said,Can I take these?
So I have three, two perfectlyorbs that are on property, with
ones here, one's at the otherplace, and then one that looked
just like an acorn, right?
And um, and then studying devpsychology, James Hillman wrote
(34:42):
the book, The Acorn Theory.
And so the acorn, well, it'sit's not called the acorn
theory, but it's about the acorntheory.
And that's looking at at Platoand the and the notion that
we're born with a daemon, withuh this seed inside us that
we're meant to nourish and grow,and that's what we give back to
(35:06):
the world, right?
That's our life calling.
And I was brought up with that.
That's how I was raised.
To you're born with some, youknow, with this inner ability.
It's your responsibility to tonurture it, become the best that
you can, and give that to theworld.
(35:27):
And so I call it my acorn theorybecause two things, three things
happen back there.
One is it really helpsindividuals when they're not
sure where to go with their lifewhen they walk it, what has
transpired with because it's setin the middle of the woods, it
(35:50):
also uh the woods are catchingin the birds and all the insects
and uh and all the uh thenon-seems they're communicating,
and so you're being held so itopens up individuals to that
relationship.
But the center of the labyrinthis like the ancestral well of
(36:12):
remembrance and it's a powerpoint, and that's where you can
tap into your ancestralknowledge.
It's amazing.
And so that's not I've learnedthat as I walked it, but that
was not a preconceived notionwhen I built it.
(36:36):
That's what's transpired overthe years walking it and it
revealing its story and itsholding.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:47):
So amazing because as I was walking up the
beautiful stone steps surroundedwith ferns and all kinds of
ground cover.
I mean, it's really magical.
There was come that I will getthe name, do you and the forget
me not.
SPEAKER_00 (37:02):
You want to talk about magical what you're seeing
there, and that's just wildforget me not just just going
crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (37:09):
Oh, I I would manage to come back and see that
because as I was walking up thestairs, there was a an acorn
that was the head of you know,the top of an acorn that was
perfectly sort of set in thecrevice of the stone step.
And I almost stopped and took ifI hadn't been running a little
bit late, I would have whippedmy phone out and taken a picture
of it because it was sopicturesque, like you have all
(37:31):
these little people that youhave kind of perched in nooks
and crannies.
It looked like it was literallyplaced there.
And I I'm uh it absolutely madesuch an impression on me.
And here we are talking aboutthe acorn.
Here we are.
SPEAKER_00 (37:43):
And so it knew, and that just happened.
That something's happened,right?
Yeah.
Tree wanted you to acorn wantedyou to see it.
SPEAKER_01 (37:53):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:54):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:55):
So how soon after your mom died did this manifest?
SPEAKER_00 (37:59):
So that was 2000, you said?
Yeah, that was 2000, and so webegan so I was able I f got the
land in 14, began building in16, it was finished in 17.
And um And was your did your sonknow either of your parents?
So only kids knew my mom, noneof my kids Oh right, your dad
(38:23):
died while you were in college.
So knew my dad.
And so they that's I mean, I I'msure you know that's really hard
because he he so defined who Iam.
You know, I'm as an artist, I'muh incredibly driven and in cr
incredibly uh I I have a greatpractice.
(38:46):
You know, I'm very disciplinedwith my practice.
I love it.
It's my it's who I am, but thatthat's so much of my dad, and
that's also embracing is likegiving back to my father and
giving back to my ancestors isthat honoring and and that
respect to them, but that'sstill working as hard as ever.
(39:13):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (39:14):
Yeah, like so yeah.
So did but did your son uh yourson got to know your father, I
would imagine, through thatproject that you did with the
army jacket?
SPEAKER_00 (39:25):
Yes.
So yeah, so I recent and so andthat son Robbie and he did and
um and what I like to do on onmy dad on his birthday is I will
often send pictures of my dad orletters from my dad to me, or
(39:47):
and I do that with about my momwith the kids too.
Just cool tradition.
Yeah, just to give them andyeah, just little threads, you
know, those yeah, to g and tokeep to keep my parents alive in
their minds because my mom wascertainly a big part of their
life, but my dad and mygrandmother was part of their
(40:09):
life too, so yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:11):
And was that your maternal grandmother?
Yes.
Uh-huh.
Was she s in Ohio in Ohio?
Is that she moved.
SPEAKER_00 (40:17):
She was You know, my mom's from Alabama.
Oh, right, you did saysomething.
Yeah, yeah.
And so she when she got sheended up getting double
pneumonia, so she reluctantly inher eighties got moved to Ohio,
a place she never was.
And yeah, so that was great.
(40:37):
That was like hugest gift forall of us because she was like
the dream grandmother and um soit was a gift for my kids to get
us spend time with Baba.
SPEAKER_01 (40:53):
Baba was her name.
Baba.
That's what you call her.
Oh, that's great.
SPEAKER_00 (40:56):
Yeah.
Um so yeah.
Her she still was on.
We every time we would go seeher, we'd always say, Howdy bub.
And so this is a a meanderthread.
Talk about a meander thread.
So I believe I'm I'm clearlyinto ritual.
And so I wanted my uh husband totake the boys on their manhood
(41:22):
trip when they turned 13.
And on the manhood trip, theyfound this big huge curved bear
with the sign howdy on it.
SPEAKER_01 (41:30):
And that was awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (41:32):
That was awful.
So they did this trip in asuburban and they were and so
they brought up the bear back,you know, and some bear in the
suburban.
And so it's at the house out andit's on, it's lived with us ever
since howdy.
And so you can't look at thebear and see, I called my father
(41:52):
bear.
And so, you know, just thosethings are just so important
because it works on youconsciously, but also it's then
it's just a just a thread thatyou're not thinking about, but
there it is, and you know, it'sfun for the kids, and yeah, and
then it's their bear becauseboth boys saw it.
(42:14):
They saw it when my older sonand my husband went out, and
then they my younger son, theydid a similar path, and it was
still for sale.
They bought it at a time.
SPEAKER_01 (42:29):
That is such a great story.
And I love that you talk aboutthreads because you earlier were
talking about sort of the thestitching together of you know
the the the stitching that youdid on the on the pieces of your
mother's clothes.
So that's clearly a a theme.
And it is a theme.
It's a way we it's ametaphorical theme that we talk
about all the time with the warpand weft of life and that.
(42:50):
Yeah, it's just so cool.
Now, are are we on native groundhere?
SPEAKER_00 (42:54):
Was this well I I think so that's an interesting
question because I'm gonna sayuh it has to be, doesn't it?
But I'm also native in that Ifeel so of this land, and as the
(43:16):
quote that's attributed to ChiefSeattle, how can you buy or sell
this guy?
This idea is strange.
It's none of us own the land,it's it's in my DNA.
So, yes, there were clearlypeoples who lived here before
(43:37):
this life of my life, right?
But we're all related, and sothere's stories held in the land
that clearly percolate up intomy work, and so I'm giving voice
to stories that are so beyond mycapability of memory and
(44:01):
remembrance that are justtapping in by being here.
Yeah.
And and honoring because a hugepart of it see you know, you
nuts like from goosebow police.
Everybody wants to be seen.
(44:23):
All the trees want to be seen.
The mushrooms want to be seen,the birds want to be seen, you
want to be seen, I want to beseen, and we will we want that
to be valued and heard andhonored.
And so when you just move intothat type of relationship with
(44:44):
your work with everything, youinevitably it's like how we've
clicked.
There's so many of ournarratives, our threads, they're
just like uncanny.
And it's just you we're broughttogether, but we're we've also
somehow opened up to each otherthat that's what's revealing
(45:06):
itself.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:10):
Well, it it ties back to what you said earlier
about you know, when you aren'tother, like when you become one
with something and there is noother.
So you know, at a metaphysicallevel, it's like that all
unified field of consciousness,which ties back to, you know,
(45:30):
your depth psychology stuff.
And the if you know it's it'sreally uh obviously that's a a
passion of mine as well.
So we could go there a lot.
And you know, one of the thingsI'm kind of excited about,
you're the first person I'vespoken to in season two, this
whole, you know, uh, the art ofremembrance.
Yeah.
And you've used so many of thebuzzwords that I that have
(45:54):
captured my imagination toinform this next season.
And I kind of have to leave itopen to where the season's gonna
take me.
I have my ideas of where it'sgonna go.
But one of the things that Ilearned from talking to so many
artists is sometimes you justhave to surrender to the
process.
And so I'm just gonna let theseconversations kind of go where
they go and see where it takesme.
(46:14):
And I I have some some concreteideas for it, but um, I'm just
so delighted that it's this isthe kickoff.
I mean, it couldn't it couldn'tbe any more perfectly timed.
And I I took this trip, I I cameeast to go visit family, and
then I came up here to see morefamily, but I'd never been to
this part of the world before.
(46:35):
And whenever I'm starting a newchapter, I really like to do
something completely new as aritual for myself.
Yes, and cross-country roadtrips are easy, low-hanging
fruit for me at this stage.
I mean, I I wasn't able to go tosome far-flung destination, but
just coming up to this part ofthe world, which is so new to
(46:56):
me.
And so, and here we are.
I feel like the lesson iswhenever you take a chance and
swing out, yes you know, theworld just sort of Yes.
It opens up the intuition.
Well, it was a total invitationon my part.
This is this is the new patternthat I've learned from all so
many artists is to justsurrender to the to the space in
between.
SPEAKER_00 (47:16):
Absolutely.
It's like having your ear to theground, right?
Feeling the pulse, listening.
And then responding.
Even when you don't know whereyou're going, you don't know
where it's leading.
It's just having the faith totake the leap.
SPEAKER_01 (47:40):
Yeah.
And that's another reason that II started this whole podcast
series is because I may havementioned I used to do art
travel and then that gotinterrupted by COVID.
And I wanted to createconversations with people who
were at that stage of their lifewhere they weren't sure, you
know, empty nest or women orwhatever.
People were just at that at acrossroads.
And I thought introducing peoplethose people to artists who
(48:02):
stare down a blank canvas everyday is to kind of help them
learn the muscle to how you yougenerate your life from nothing.
Yes.
And sharing them now that thispodcast format allows me to
share it with a much largeraudience than I would have been
(48:23):
able to do with my art travel.
So it's amazing to me how muchit's landing and how much it's
stimulating.
I get a lot of feedback, whichis so satisfying that, oh, I
picked up a paintbrush for thefirst time in 20 years because
they were inspired by one of theartists that I spoke to.
And it's that's that whole ideaof reconnecting with the greater
(48:44):
community, helping us feel lessisolated in our world.
And the beauty of I wanteverybody to have access to the
experience that we had yesterdaywhere I just walked in here and
it was like you know, thefireworks of connections.
And it was just so it was forme, it was really magic.
No, it was.
It was amazing.
Yeah, yeah.
So I mean, that's kind of bringsus all full circle.
(49:08):
And um, yeah, so I have no, I'mon my way back.
I'm gonna make one or two pitstops and we'll see what magic
happens then.
But other than that, we're thisis just sort of the beginning of
whatever circle.
So I'm kind of I want to bringit back to a labyrinth.
I don't know if all labyrinthsare constructed like this, but
I'm talking to the right personto answer me.
(49:28):
But in the Shaw labyrinth, yougo pretty straight in pretty
quickly.
You think you're gonna get tothe center pretty quickly, and
then all of a sudden it spinsyou out again, and then it takes
a long time to get actually backto the center before you start
your retreat back out.
Is that the nature oflabyrinths?
SPEAKER_00 (49:45):
So do you always Well that's the nature of the
unicursal labyrinths?
There are two types oflabyrinths.
There's unicursal, which is onepath then, one path out, and
multicursal, which is ourlabyrinths with dead ends,
false.
Oh that was more like the theminotaur labyrinth with the
Absolutely Okay.
(50:06):
So what's interesting about thatthough, when it's portrayed on
coins, it's a unicursal.
So you often, when you readabout labyrinths, they'll be
multicursal, they'll be with thedead ends and the false turns.
Today, we've really lost the useof those two words.
So we typically think of amulticursal as a maze, right?
(50:30):
Like a corn maze, right, right.
Hedge maze.
Right.
And we think of the wordlabyrinth representing a
universal labyrinth, the onepath in, one path out.
And what's amazing about them isthat from the outside, you see
the beautiful pattern that theycreate.
(50:50):
They're geometric, they'regorgeous, right?
But when you're in it, there isa feeling of chaos.
You're not quite sure where youare in the path.
So it's a metaphor for one'sjourney through life.
You know, you're just takingthat next step, next step until
you get to the center, right?
(51:12):
And so you're following, so youyou don't necessarily see the
the path as a whole, but whenyou're but the the but the
former has a lot more hope.
SPEAKER_01 (51:23):
I mean, the idea that you're going to eventually
get to the center.
Yeah, you're getting to thecenter.
But if if in the other, in thealternative, if there are starts
and stops, right, it's it's likea life that gets interrupted or
something.
What would what was the theorybehind those?
SPEAKER_00 (51:40):
And well, that's the way I mean they're so they're um
archetypal forms that are thatare found in every culture.
And so y we could easily saythat they are metaphors for
different journeys through life.
And we all know plenty of peoplewho have, for one reason or
(52:00):
another, been stopped and havenot been able to figure their
way through um every event of soWow.
SPEAKER_01 (52:09):
And so how is there a relationship?
That's really a lot for me tothink about right now.
I gotta collect myself for aminute because you know,
obviously, you think about thepeople who die young, like my
mother and so many people asbeing on this that type of
labyrinth.
SPEAKER_00 (52:23):
And I So I I would not I would not necessarily
agree with that.
Oh, so say more.
Because she lived her life.
And she lived, I imagine, whenshe was here full life.
And so her journey was what itwas supposed to be.
Um not the journey that maybeyou want and or her had hoped
(52:47):
for.
But a little I think the lifeinterrupted, the life stopped.
This is a real this is a deepdive, right?
This is we're segueing here bigtime.
Would be where people have hadjust come to events where
(53:09):
they've not been able to figureout how to continue on, right?
And right, it becomeslabyrinthian and hard to
navigate.
SPEAKER_01 (53:23):
So in that second kind of labyrinth is at at when
you get to the dead end, can youyou can absolutely find your
way, you can find a new way.
SPEAKER_00 (53:32):
So it's really more of a you can always find your
way to the center and you canalways find your way out.
SPEAKER_01 (53:39):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (53:40):
You can always find your way.
You can always find your way.
You can always find your way.
Sometimes it's a much morechallenging adventure because
it's like, well, this didn'twork.
Let's let's try something new.
Let's go back and take adifferent path, and then you go,
(54:03):
and maybe you continue to makecorrect turns so you get to the
center, but maybe you don't.
And so then you end up atanother dead end.
So then you have the courage toturn around, go back a little
bit, and then you you go theother way.
SPEAKER_01 (54:24):
And well, I mean, that happens definitely looks
more like that too.
SPEAKER_00 (54:27):
I think most people's lives look like that.
Certainly within creativity,that happens all the time in the
studio.
Sure.
You know you're makingsomething, and then that didn't
work.
Right, right, right.
And so you adjust, you know,you're nimble.
Yeah.
And so in a lot of ways, yes,everyone's life, most people's
(54:51):
lives, are going to be that typeof journey.
You still can get to the centerand you still can get out.
But it takes courage andnimbleness.
SPEAKER_01 (55:01):
And giving yourself permission, which is I think
another theme that came up outof the first uh season, was that
the artists who are successfulare constantly giving themselves
permission to do to pivot and tokind of start something new.
And that you know, once you'reon a path, you don't have to go
there and beat your head againstthe wall if it's not working.
SPEAKER_00 (55:22):
Absolutely.
You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (55:23):
And I think that's a really important metaphor for
life in general.
SPEAKER_00 (55:27):
The the universal labyrinth, where people
typically think of as thelabyrinth, it's why it's been
embodied so much within the past30 years as a form of
meditation.
Because you really are stayingon a path.
And that makes so much sense.
SPEAKER_01 (55:46):
Because monkey mind is the other one.
I mean, I'm constantly bumpingup the start again, start again,
start again.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (55:53):
Yeah.
And so it's really good to havea labyrinth.
And so it doesn't have to needto be a literal labyrinth, but
going for a walk in the wounds,going for a walk along the lake,
to be able to allow your sensesand your body to kind of unwind
and tether, and you just allowyourself to get back into your
(56:18):
own rhythm, right?
So it helps attune yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (56:24):
Yeah.
Which sounds like sort of whatyou did with the project to
bring us full circle.
The the project that you didwith your around your mother's
loss of your mother.
It was a way for you to justkind of, you know, focus and get
yourself back.
And so was the healing of yourback uh ultimately consistent
with when the project wasterminated?
(56:44):
Were they were they around thesame time?
SPEAKER_00 (56:47):
How did you decide that the project was so what
happened, like I said, the theone project took a year?
And so I was significantlybetter because I had surgery and
in the beginning part of thatsoon after my mom died.
And so the surgery was verysuccessful.
(57:08):
And so my um but it takes a longtime to heal your bad.
And so because I was asked to dothis other show, it opened up
another door for me to engage inmaterial, and that just kind of
kept going.
And that door has not closed,because it's still just right
(57:29):
there.
It still feels like that thesurrounding here has they're
demanding I give voice to them,the enchanted forest, and really
giving voice.
They're they want to be seen.
SPEAKER_01 (57:45):
So well, it sounds like with that first body of
work you completed an octave andthen you kind of entered into
the next octave.
SPEAKER_00 (57:52):
Yes.
And it felt like it was, youknow, one of the things about
art exhibits that are sowonderful for artists is that
you get the body of worktogether and there is a feeling,
there is a feeling of closure.
And so when I had that uh secondexhibit around that body of
work, it was enough for mypsyche to go, okay.
(58:15):
And so even though I continuedto do some pieces, there was a
real settling that allowed me tothen open up to other projects,
you know, and other images thatwanted to be birthed.
And so yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (58:29):
Yeah.
Well, that's cool.
Well, I hope this is thebeginning of a new octave for
us.
And yes, yay.
And I believe you ended there.
It was just absolutely worth it.
Thank you so much.
Just been awesome.
Incredible.
Love talking with you.
Thank you.
So thanks for joining us today.
Artstorming is brought to youand supported by Artbridge and M
(58:52):
and listeners like you.
Look for us on your favoritepodcast platforms or wherever
you listen.
Your subscriptions, likes,comments, and shares help us to
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(59:14):
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(59:36):
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