November 9, 2025 • 51 mins
A hidden cemetery. A mill built by an enslaved craftsman. A song written on the hillside where roots hold memory. Eric Mingus joins us to unpack a lineage that runs through the Great Smoky Mountains, across Cherokee land, and into a body of work that insists legacy must stay alive, not embalmed. What began as a visit became The Mill—composed on site, later performed with Yo-Yo Ma, and now growing into a traveling forum that invites communities to gather, remember, and speak.
Music for ArtStorming was written and performed by John Cruikshank.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:02):
Have you ever wondered what makes creative
people tick?
Where do their ideas come from?
What keeps them energized?
What kinds of things get intheir way?
Is their life really as much funas it looks from the outside?
Hello, I'm your host, LilyPierpont, and this is
Artstorming, a podcast about howideas become paintings or poems,
(00:24):
performances, or collections.
Each episode, I'll chat with aguest from the arts community
and we'll explore how the mostcreative among us stare down a
blank canvas or reach into thevoid and create something new.
In our inaugural season,Artstorming the City Different,
we dipped our toes into the vastocean of creativity with a focus
(00:44):
on some of our favorite creatorsof Santa Fe, New Mexico.
That conversation was enjoyed byartists and non-artists alike
because it showed us how we canall benefit from learning how to
generate something from nothing,dream bigger, charter new
territories, and solve problemsin new ways.
In season two, we're going totake that concept of generating
(01:05):
our lives with intention to thenext level.
This season, we're talking aboutlegacy, art as legacy, and how
the most creative among ustackle this rich and deeply
personal subject.
Welcome to Artstorming The Artof Remembrance.
(01:25):
My guest today is themultifaceted creative Eric
Mingus.
He's a poet, woodworker,vocalist, musician, composer,
historian, and storyteller.
You also might know him as thecreator of The Middle, a project
so compelling that it recentlyled to a collaboration with
Yo-Yo Ma.
(01:46):
And yes, he's also the youngestson of jazz legend Charles
Mingus.
But no single title captures thetotality of this powerfully
insightful human being.
Eric's story has depth afterdeath, perfectly aligning with
our theme of how lineage,legacy, and death can be
boundless inspirations for art.
(02:08):
This was a challengingconversation precisely because
of that complexity.
We kept uncovering new layers ofrelevance as we went along.
In the vast history of his life,we touched on everything from
the legacy of family and musicaltradition handed down from one
generation to the next, the lossof legacy when the rights to an
artistic body of work are leftto chance, and the profound
(02:31):
impact of our darker legacies ofracism and slavery.
Dive in with me as we unpack thelife and legacy of Eric Mingus.
I am here with Eric Mingus, andI have to say, I've been looking
forward to this conversationsince I spoke to your wife,
(02:52):
Catherine Socora, who wassitting in that very chair at
the end of last season.
Actually, she was the one whosuggested that you would be an
incredible guest for our secondseason because she knew a little
bit about what our second seasonis.
So I think you've just come backfrom a trip that promoted your
latest project.
SPEAKER_00 (03:11):
Well, I yeah, I guess it would be essentially I
went to Montgomery, Alabama withYo-Yo Ma to perform the piece
The Mill that I wrote and werecorded.
And it was just releasedrecently.
And part of the podcast that hehas, Our Convention, which for
the episode I'm featuring on isabout Appalachia, you know, the
the Great Smoldy Mountains.
(03:32):
And we talked about my familyorigins there, and it's pretty
impressive.
SPEAKER_01 (03:37):
And had you been to Alabama before this whole event?
There's some crazy story aboutwhat even how this all happened.
SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
Part of it, I really have to say, is due to a friend
of mine, Hal Wilner, who's nolonger with us, who's a
producer.
Notably, he worked for SaturdayNight Live.
He was the he produced the musicfor the skits, not the bands,
but but he also was a veryeclectic producer and created
these records.
We didn't we didn't call themtrivia records, he didn't like
(04:05):
that, but they would bebasically people from different
musical backgrounds workingtogether on a project that was
devoted to one person composer.
He did one for my father.
The record was called WeirdNightmare.
But he and I became friends as aresult of that.
And I'd been I was working withhim for years on these projects.
Um we do the music of BillWithers or Ooh, I love Bill
Withers.
(04:26):
I'm just trying to think ofDisney shows for years.
And the pr people who helped himproduce many of those shows just
happened to be in the GreatSmoky Mountains with Yo-Yo Ma.
And I got a call.
They said, Eric, we, you know,we're in the Smoky Mountains of
Yo-Yo Ma.
We didn't know that yourgrandfather was born here.
And I said, Well, yeah, youknow, that's where he was born,
(04:48):
you know, but it the history ofthe family there isn't something
we've like run down and dopicnics with though now.
I've changed my mind, and Ithink picnicking on the ground
would be a good thing to do.
They asked, there were a lot ofthings falling into place.
Yo-Yo's presence in the SmokyMountains is bringing attention
to a lot of different things.
And there was at the time therewere park rangers that were
(05:11):
trying to show theAfrican-American history within
the Smoky Mountains because astime went on, it gets forgotten,
you know.
SPEAKER_01 (05:18):
Sure.
And how would Yo-Yo Ma be a partof that story?
SPEAKER_00 (05:23):
Well, Myo No has he's his, you know, our common
nature is uh is really uhrealigning us with our with
nature where we're from, and hewhat he does that's amazing is
he kind of lends his presence tohelp people.
I mean, one of the one of thethings that happened that is on
this podcast as well is one ofthe one of the mountains, it was
called Cleanling Stone.
(05:44):
Um, but the charity were therefor thousands of years, and it
was, you know, the um their theoriginal name was Quilly, which
I think is the Mulberry place.
And they actually, with theOEO's support, it got changed
back to its original name.
SPEAKER_01 (05:56):
Oh, cool.
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
Um and uh so that's what he does, you know, and and
in a way his presence there heconnected me with it.
I don't he wasn't necessarilyinvolved with the initial
project I did there.
That was this um thisorganization called the Office
of Warden Film, um, who workedwith How Wilner and I for years.
(06:18):
And they coordinated with thepark rangers and an organization
called the African AmericanExperience Project, which was
trying to basically show thatwithin the parks there's other
history other than justfootball.
No, you know, there's nosmallwald history.
And I knew, you know, from myfamily what our origins were
(06:38):
there.
I mean, Amingus is a slave name,and my great-grandfather Daniel
was born enslaved, and hehappened to be a very gifted
woodworker.
He built the white Vegas familyhome, and uh we believe he built
the mill that the that's stillthere.
And the mill is there.
It's all the Mingus Mill, youcan visit it.
(06:58):
Its purpose is more to show whata mill was like in the late
1800s.
It's an it's it and it's like ademonstration project.
Yeah, it it used to run.
I don't think it's running atthe moment because they need to
replace a beep.
But you could go and they'd begrinding corn for the chickens
because they it's to demonstratehow life was for the settlers at
the time.
There's usually someone therethat tells you how the place was
(07:21):
run and what it was like.
And the mill is a meeting placewhere people would go to get
their their grain ground up andstuff like that.
It was wrist smooth.
SPEAKER_01 (07:28):
So a center of the community.
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00 (07:30):
Um and the Mingus family built it.
I mean, it's actually the secondone.
There's an earlier one that theybuilt.
Oh, this is the newer one thathad a had a metal turbine that
ran in the water, which isreally the pressing for the era.
And so there's really not muchknown about the family, or at
least they don't talk about itin the in that sense.
And the Mingus family wereapparently the first to settle
(07:52):
in in that area in the SmokyMountains, apparently.
Dr.
Jacob Mingus was the one.
SPEAKER_01 (07:58):
And this is the white Mingus?
Yeah, okay.
Exactly.
So that's well, that's what'ssuch an interesting thing about
I mean, this whole story isreally about the discovery of
these two branches of thefamily.
SPEAKER_00 (08:08):
Is that I guess yeah.
I mean, I'm connected to bothbecause that's how it works.
It's uh Daniel is was born intoslavery.
They say the make the whiteMingus family reared him, so I
don't know exactly how thataligns.
But but Daniel had a had aflagrant affair with the
granddaughter, Clarinda Mingus.
And that's how my grandfatherwas born, so were they of blood
(08:30):
both bloodlines.
SPEAKER_01 (08:32):
Wow, cool.
SPEAKER_00 (08:33):
It's it's you know, it's an awkward thing in some
ways, because without slavery Iwouldn't be here, you know.
It's uh it's a it's awkward, butand interesting, and it and I
have to say I never reallythought to go there.
It wasn't my grandfather.
If you really want to get intothe depth of the story, my
grandfather, you know, lived inthe Mingus household with his
mother.
(08:53):
Daniel moved on.
My great-grandmother moved away.
You know, they didn't want himaround, so he moved on and he
became Daniel West.
He actually changed his name forthe next family that he worked
with, even though slavery wasgone.
SPEAKER_01 (09:05):
Well, I guess that was that was the tradition at
that time, as you took the nameof the family you worked for.
SPEAKER_00 (09:09):
Yeah, I guess.
Or maybe they made him changethis.
I don't know.
You know, they it's um it getsinto there gets in it gets into
some sort of manipulation of oneof the white mingus family
members was the census taker.
At first my grandfather was inthe system as a white mingus,
and then they took him outbecause they didn't want coming
back and laying claim to theproperty.
(09:30):
So when they asked if I wouldcome and write a they said,
would you write a piece for it?
I was like, I guess, you know, Idon't know.
And uh Catherine and I justhappened to be at the time
rescuing a tortoise.
Which sounds funny, but we havea tortoise that was needed at
home.
SPEAKER_01 (09:46):
And a tortoise, as in a thing with a shell.
A desert tortoise, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
It's and uh so we because you can't fly with a
tortoise or reptiles for thatmatter, we had to drive it.
So we were basically drivingfrom New York down to New Mexico
and decided we'd stomp inCharity, North Carolina, or
Smoky Mountains, Great SmokyMountains.
(10:10):
And uh this is before it evenreally commissioned me to do it.
You know, this was just I said,okay, I guess I'll go.
And I went, and it was weird,you know, it was a it was a
strange visit.
SPEAKER_01 (10:20):
And that was your first visit to this land.
SPEAKER_00 (10:23):
Yeah, to that area.
I don't think I'd ever reallybeen to North Carolina that I
recall maybe driven through it,but never really stopped.
And it was fascinating to see itand in some way familiar.
And when we first got there, Iwent to the mill, and at the
time it was it was stillfunctioning, and there was like
you know, a person that greetsyou, and it was at it was sort
of awkward because the guy hewas descendant from a white
(10:43):
family that lived there, and hedidn't really have any knowledge
of the connection with the milland Gerald Mingus.
And I guess it had become kindof evident to me.
I the mill kept popping upbecause the things like
Facebook, where mus bassistswould go and like stand in front
of the mill, you know, and sing,hey, here I'm with Mingus'
Mingus Mills, thumbs up, youknow.
And I was like, Well, it'sawkward.
(11:05):
You're sort of celebratinginflatement in some way and you
know, the creation of my family.
So I didn't really I've beensort of weighing how I feel
about it emotionally, and Istill continue to do that.
SPEAKER_01 (11:14):
Yeah.
I mean, just uh to to interject,did your father know anything
about the history?
SPEAKER_00 (11:19):
Well, he knew it was yeah, he knew that his father
was from there.
I bel I I have a feeling he hadgone there with his dad when he
was a kid.
In the history records of howother people talk about them in
his family, my grandfather left,came back once, but they never
came back again.
But he I know that he visitedhis mother, but she was living
in Tennessee at the time.
But the amazing thing thathappened out of all this is that
(11:39):
I have family down in NorthCarolina I didn't know I had,
um, and they're the West family.
And we've gotten to know eachother, and they and so as we
were talking, basically yourgrandfather used to come here a
lot and hang out with hisbrothers.
Half brothers.
So it was a gang of these guysthat hung out, and they were
apparently pretty formidableguys.
And my my grandfather went on tobe a the Buffalo soldier in the
(12:00):
army.
There's a whole other long storybecause when he ran when he left
the Mingus family, he joined thearmy as a white man because he
had red hair.
And somehow he passed.
So whatever I sent pictures ofhim, like he compared some.
But I guess people did.
SPEAKER_01 (12:15):
Well, you know, there's that whole thing right
now that redheads are all black.
Have you heard that?
I haven't heard that.
Well, I don't know another.
SPEAKER_00 (12:21):
Or have some genuine or something.
But you know, it it and uh heleft and you know married a
white woman.
Like there's this whole otherfamily of Minguses that didn't
know, and I think some know nowbecause of DNA.
So then he got caught basicallyfor passing, and then he left
and rejoined the army as a blackman and became a buffalo
soldier, which of course has awhole other layer of history and
(12:42):
the Indian Wars and all thethings.
SPEAKER_01 (12:51):
Well, no wonder Yo-Yo Ma is so fascinated with
you and the nearer story.
SPEAKER_00 (12:56):
Yeah, I mean he's been he was great, and he is
great.
And like I mean, like I said,the Montgomery thing was purely
it was an event as part of theEqual Justice Initiative.
And they have they have a legacymuseum, they have a memorial.
I mean, it's a it's it's anamazing place to visit.
It you get a sense of thathistory that we all share, not
(13:18):
just African American, but weall share.
And it's intense and it'spainful and it's earth-shaking,
but I am so glad I went.
We I had the option to sort ofgo and perform.
I have to say, graciously, itwas Branford Marcellus's
performance.
And he had Yo-Yo Ma involved inhis compositions that he allowed
(13:41):
me to do on my beast, so I'mreally grateful for that.
And well, dream of a huge fan ofRanford's.
But the uh so I was there for afew days and got to see all this
stuff.
I I could have not, I could havesaid, okay, I'm just gonna say
and focus on the music, but Idecided to go to the museum and
to the memorials, and it it'sabsolutely stunning.
(14:02):
Absolutely important stop tomake, as as difficult as people
would would think it would be.
Because I I grew up in the civilrights movement.
My father marched, I marched andwas involved in the country.
SPEAKER_01 (14:11):
Wait, were you are you from the East Coast or for
the East Coast?
East Coast.
Okay, so you're from New York.
Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:15):
And so, you know, we were very active in that.
I when I was a kid, I went to asummer camp that was more
politically active than anythingelse.
I knew all about the history,but I guess I never in some way
that instilled like, oh, whywould I go to the South?
SPEAKER_01 (14:29):
Well, I don't blame you.
I mean, uh I have the samefeeling.
SPEAKER_00 (14:32):
I don't have a black history.
I will have to say, and this isprobably the stuff I shouldn't
say on here what I'm saying.
I I have a deep love for theSouth.
I lived in Louisiana for awhile, and they have a tendency
to be straightforward and kind,even regardless of their
feelings for you.
Or their interpretations of yourrace, all that stuff.
There's a certain if someone'sracist or something or put the
(14:55):
situation, it's in your face andyou can process it.
Whereas on the East Coast of NewYork, people are racist behind
your back and manipulatingthings and they're like it's
very well hidden because theysay we're the liberals and we're
we're not racist, but it's veryembedded in the system.
And yes, and the thing is whenyou go down to this legacy
museum, you you know, I think alot of times people think the
the Northeast was like free ofslaves or free of lynching,
(15:17):
also.
But they have a deep, deep inputinto that, especially lynching,
as well as uh the profit fromthe slave trade went right to
New York, right to Wall Street,and it's the foundation of much
of the wealth this country wasformed.
SPEAKER_01 (15:31):
Yeah.
Well, this is the reason thatthese conversations are so
important.
As we develop more confidence orcomfort talking about difficult
things, we get to learn what'swhat's really been going on all
along.
But so I'm curious.
So with all this going on, Imean, well, this is the water
you swim in anyway, but thenthere's another whole layer to
(15:51):
it that is is your music andyour father's music and and the
piece of music that came out ofthis whole experience.
Right.
So you were describing, soyou're with your tortoise and
Catherine, and you you'vearrived in the South.
And um, so you know a little bitof the South, you're stopping to
see this history museum, you getto the mill, and uh, had you
(16:12):
already been asked to compose apiece of music at that point, or
this is when you were justtraveling through.
SPEAKER_00 (16:16):
I think we were discussing it, the paperwork is
in the process.
So I get there, and I was toldthat unfortunately the park
ranger who was part of theAfrican American Experience
Project had some car difficultyand couldn't meet me at the
time.
And she said, The slave cemeterywhere your ancestors are is just
past the parking lot orsomething.
(16:36):
And I kept looking for it.
I couldn't find it, I couldn'tfind it.
I went into the the mill and Ispoke to the person there, and
they said, Oh, you have to gothis way or that way.
And Catherine and I ended upwalking miles into the woods.
We saw at least seven snakes, acouple of rattlesnakes.
I was like, just we were like,Where are we going?
And fine, and then finally wesaid, Well, we're not finding
it.
So we turned around.
So we we made it back, but I wasvery frustrated because I
(16:59):
couldn't find that cemetery.
And went back to the hotel, andthe next morning we were getting
ready to leave, and I said, Youknow what?
I'm gonna go back to the milland I'm gonna see if I can find
it.
And sure enough, I just noticedthis path going up, and I was
right there, literally, likeright there.
Um, so I went up, yeah.
So let me sort of hang out thereon my own.
And um I pretty much wrote thepiece right then and there.
SPEAKER_01 (17:21):
So it just sort of uploaded.
SPEAKER_00 (17:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:23):
I mean it was I mean, that's that's my vision of
it.
That's my languaging of it.
But I just sort of feel likethat's I I just imagine you
getting this upload.
SPEAKER_00 (17:30):
Well, I wanted to write about not just my
experience, but it's my blooddown in that soil in the roots
of the trees that are around it.
And I just decided that I wantedto give voice to it as best I
could with what I know.
You know, I grew up with afather who was very outspoken,
not only about his music, butabout politics.
The well-known fables of Baldusabout segregationists, Governor
(17:52):
of Arkansas.
I always traveled this weirdthing of it's music, not
entertainment, or is itentertainment, or is it music?
Or can they be both?
Or can you, you know, can you dothat?
SPEAKER_01 (18:02):
And and um Because your father's take on it was a
little bit more serious orsomething.
SPEAKER_00 (18:06):
He was very serious in what he did.
So it was self-expression, itwas political, it was Yeah, and
and and arguably the titles ofthe pieces were more political
than the actual music, becausethere isn't lyrics, or rarely
there were lyrics, so a lot ofit was the titling just brought
attention to the topics, whetherit could be some sort of
(18:30):
imprisonment thing, somethingabout the justice system, or
racism.
It was very much in it, and hespoke about it very much on
stage, and and uh and I guessthat's sort of the legacy I
carry on, is I I do similarly dothat.
Though I try to be more or havetried to be more diplomatic
about it.
Because we're all I'm mixedrace.
I have a lot of stuff goingthrough me, and uh I think it's
(18:52):
really important that peoplejust view the world not so
categorized.
SPEAKER_01 (18:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:58):
And also allow yourself to be more than what
people determine your race tellsyou you're supposed to be able
to do or not do, or whatever.
And uh you know, that goes forpolitics too, you know.
I don't this hard line betweenDemocrats and Republicans is
ridiculous.
I don't feel anybody reallyaddresses a hundred percent of
what I want politically.
SPEAKER_01 (19:15):
Yeah.
Especially when you grow up in ahousehold where it's very
defined, we ha we have todifferentiate ourselves and come
up with our own version of aninterpretation of life.
And so finding your own voice,whether you're a musician your
musician's voice or yourpersonal voice, is it's a
struggle when you have outspokenparents.
SPEAKER_00 (19:33):
There's no difference between For me,
there's no difference between amusician voice and my personal
voice.
I can't not be who I am andeverything I do.
That's a big part of it.
But does it Yeah, the Millsstory really kind of just
happened and then I built on it.
Originally it was just, oh, I'llwrite the piece and I'll come
perform it.
And I sent it I sent the thedemo in and I got an email or or
(19:56):
a call and they said, you know,yo-yo is obsessed with this
tune, he really loves it andwants to do it with you.
Okay.
And so for background, my firstinstrument was cello, it was
taught to be my father when Iwas five or six, and it was the
same for yo-yo, he was taught byhis father, so we already we
connected on that a lot.
Um, we're not too far apart inage.
(20:18):
I was like, oh my goodness.
And I was very lucky.
I have my dad as my teacher ashe also played cello, and then
he would take me to see Poplovsat Carnegie Hall, so I love the
instrument, and I'd beenlistening to Yo-Yo play for
here, obviously more recordings.
I think I saw him live once along time ago.
But it's we met there at themill, first time, and just
(20:38):
started talking abouteverything, and he's been an
amazing supporter of thisproject in particular.
And when he he was going to bein Montgomery, he felt like you
have to be there.
And luckily it happened.
He mentioned it quite some timeago, and um I'm really thrilled
that it happened because it feltlike the right place to do the
piece.
SPEAKER_01 (20:55):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
And it brought it home for me in a lot of ways.
Sure.
I mean it's not easy stuff totalk about.
It isn't.
And I'm not sure.
The whole thing is everybodygets very defensive.
I mean, it's a big topic.
They're renaming forts again,and maybe arguing about woke.
But it's not about woke, it'sabout remembering that we're all
a community, and we used tofigure out how to get along as
(21:17):
best we could and try to make itbetter for the people it wasn't
so great for.
And the thing about the mill toois that it's on charity land.
They were there before anybody.
And so there's this stolen landthat there's this people that
were stolen and brought there,and we have to figure out a way
to keep coexisting becausewhat's happening now is we're
really just dividing more, andpeople are angry and it's such a
(21:40):
waste.
SPEAKER_01 (21:40):
Well, that that's why I think what you've done,
and you you and Yo-Yo have donewith music is the it's an
incredible unifier.
I mean, me people may have adifficult time accessing a
conversation because of whatevertheir prejudices or fear or
shame that they bring to it, butanybody can listen to a piece of
(22:01):
music.
SPEAKER_00 (22:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:02):
And it just in you know infiltrates us at a
cellular level.
And suddenly I have this fantasythat this piece of music came
through you, that you are theinstrument, and that it's
carrying the healing for thisparticular story.
Now that's probablyover-romanticizing it a little
bit, but I don't know.
Maybe it's notover-romanticizing it.
SPEAKER_00 (22:24):
For me personally, it's been it's been wonderful.
And like I said, I discovered Ihave actual family in North
Carolina that are amazing andwe're part of the same history.
But it also has strengthened mein the sense of all this talking
about this and my father and allof this is difficult in a lot of
ways because it wasn't when hepassed away, you know, when I
was young.
And in a lot of ways, his legacyisn't controlled by his blood
(22:47):
family.
It's taken over by someone else.
And I suppose in a lot of waysyou f feel when you're young and
you lose a parent, and you uhfeel you don't have any say in
your parents' uh existence onthe planet, you think there's
something wrong.
You think that your view must bewrong because people aren't
accepting it.
(23:08):
And uh it's not true.
And and and I'm just as valid inspeaking on my father as anyone.
I know him.
He taught me music.
He was my first music teacher.
I had a deeper understanding ofof him than a lot of people.
But talking about remembering orremembrance, I think I'm coming
(23:29):
to terms with what how peopleare remembered, how histories or
legacies are determined, and I'mstruggling with that a lot.
That my history goes furtherback than my father.
Because a lot of times it's likeI my life has been you're
asking, it's like asked Charleswhat's talking about Charles all
the time.
SPEAKER_01 (23:47):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (23:48):
I'm fine to talk about it.
For a long time I avoided it ifI could, because I was trying to
have my own career.
Sure.
I was making my own music, whichI would say was more blues than
anything else, but they'rejudging me in the jazz context,
and I thought that was unfairbecause it clearly wasn't the
music I was making.
I mean, even and I would say I Idon't really put my music in
genre because the piece I wrote,The Mill, is more lead in in
(24:11):
African-American classical vocalhistory, like with Paul Robeson
and that that issue than it isanything else.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01 (24:17):
Well, that was a question I was obviously wanting
to ask.
It's like was that uploadconsistent with the music that
you normally do?
SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
It's consistent with the music that I feel, to be
perfectly honest.
The tune The Mill is on a recordof mine, but it's called Grinds
My Bones.
So I was gonna ask you aboutthat too.
I switched it for this versionbecause I make music I want to
make, which is how I was taught.
I don't know any better.
I've had tunes that are sort ofrock or blues or jazz or monk
(24:46):
chanting, or you know, like oldstuff.
And I explore the voice as muchas I can because I want to know
the fullness of my instrument,how much I can sing, what sounds
I can make, and I, you know, Ialso, you know, grew up around
such amazing vocalists andcultures that have other ways of
singing.
I'm always working to expand it.
I don't always want to do thesame thing.
(25:08):
It's interesting to me to taketo try and do different things.
And I mimic sounds of birds, andsometimes it sticks, sometimes
it doesn't.
SPEAKER_01 (25:15):
Did your dad no, I mean this is also great.
So um, did your dad get a a achance to experience your
fullness as a musician?
SPEAKER_00 (25:23):
Um, I would s not no, I would say no, because uh I
don't think I discovered untilthen, but I will say that when I
was a kid, I could sing prettywell.
They were doing a talent show inNew York City, PS 198.
And uh I we were doing a talentshow and I was able to sing a
(25:44):
song, you know.
I don't remember what the songwas to be honest.
For some reason Red, Red Rodingoes bop blah blah blah along
comes to mind, but I'm not surethat was the right.
But he couldn't make theperformance, so he came to the
rehearsal.
And he was sitting in the youknow, in the audience and I was
up singing, and it looked likehe was sleeping.
(26:06):
So I was like, Oh great, youknow, dad's sleeping.
But I sang the tune and wewalked back.
And he was like, that was reallygood.
He was like, he was really proudof me.
SPEAKER_01 (26:13):
So he was had his eyes closed and he was
listening.
SPEAKER_00 (26:15):
Yeah, and that's one of the things that he taught me
is listening is the best tool ina lot of ways, too.
Especially in all contexts,listening is important.
We were brought up to be veryobservant and listen.
SPEAKER_01 (26:28):
And did he encourage you to explore in addition to
your voice?
Uh well, obviously cello, butother instruments as well.
And do you have siblings andwere they also musical?
SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
Some are, some are.
I have a sister that's my fullsister.
Again, there's half-brother,half-sister.
It's my bath Dab is married afew times.
Um, my sister has definitely anear for music, but she was more
involved in fashion.
My brother Charles, the oldestCharles III, he's a artist,
painter.
He's been around for ages doinglots of stuff.
Fortunately, we're the lastthree who left living.
(26:57):
There's my brother Dorian, whowas a musician as well.
Then Eugene, another one who wasa musician, but also so yeah, we
were all we're kind of in thearts creative.
SPEAKER_01 (27:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:07):
But grew up certainly separately and and I'm
the youngest.
SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
And so do you feel like you've been able to really
dis differentiate yourself fromyour father's career and strike
out on your own and and feellike you're your own human,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (27:23):
Yeah, I think so.
I mean it was it's probablyeasier for me doing uh singing
rather than playing bass.
I do play bass, you know.
And I mean when he taught mecello, we were kind of he was
kind of teaching me his style?
His style piano way.
I mean, the real thing behindhis teaching of me was that he
recognized there was asimilarity between the way I
(27:44):
could pick up an instrument,having no knowledge of the
instrument, find the notes onit, and be able to make music.
And I, you know, and he does thesame.
He could, he could play, heplayed cello in the youth
orchestra in LA and was great.
And then they just, you know,and he was like second cello or
something to playing it.
And then when he made the firstcello chair, they realized he
(28:05):
couldn't read very well orsighting very quickly left, you
know.
So he had to really work on itbecause sometimes your natural
ear can stop you from learningmore of the theory and stuff.
But then on the other hand,learning it by the page and
being devoted to the page canalso limit your expressions.
So I think she was hoping toteach me through that.
(28:25):
And in a way, I think you did.
I I have good ears and you canpretty much throw me in any
situation and I'll hold my own.
SPEAKER_01 (28:31):
So do you think do you think of yourself more as a
a composer?
SPEAKER_00 (28:35):
I find I have a difficult time calling myself
anything, to be perfectlyhonest.
When you're mixed race, peopleare always telling you to decide
what are you, which is the worstquestion.
Someone has to ask that to me toknow where you are.
Right, exactly.
And then no matter what I wouldchoose, someone else would look
at me and decide I'm somethingelse.
So it's like it's not up to mewhat my race is.
So I don't acknowledge itanymore.
(28:55):
I'm like, I'm just who I am, andI do the best I can to get
through this life unscathed.
And then with music, all thepeople I know that create music
listen to other music, they'renot just one thing.
And yo-yo, I went in and go, Oh,it's yo-yo ma.
And I did not expect him to workwith me on a piece.
And then we are even talkingabout doing more now and trying
to figure out what that wouldlook like.
SPEAKER_01 (29:17):
So I guess maybe the the the better question is not
how do you define yourself, butis there one thing that gives
you more joy?
Do you was what's your mostjoyful expression?
SPEAKER_00 (29:28):
I don't know.
I mean, I love singing, youknow.
I really, I really do.
I love creating music, but I Ido working with the audio has
been really exciting because wenever play it the same twice.
He's improvising behind me justas much as I'm working around
him.
It's and it's it's beautiful.
It's really like so when wefirst did it, he listened to the
tape and he came up with his ownpart, and it was great.
(29:50):
And I loved working with it.
And we did it again anothertime, and it evolved into
something else.
And then this time we did it inMontgomery, it was even better
because he gets more into.
It and and knows what possiblyknows where I might go.
I tell anybody I work with, Ican rehearse it with you for
weeks.
And when I guarantee you, whenI'm out there in front of the
audience, I'm gonna go somewherethat no one expects me to go,
(30:10):
even me.
Because that's what I do.
And when I to hit back to HalWilner, the producer that I
worked with, that's what hecounted on.
He would put me in the showwhere he was worried, like he
would do this multi-order show,and he'd put me in the in the
schedule right where he thoughthe'd need me.
Because I'd come out there andhe knew I would shake it up.
(30:31):
I think the gig uh I did a thingin Tennessee and Knoxville with
Yo-Yo Ma and friends, and likewe got to do the milk.
But I think, you know, when Idid the piece, uh, people was
like, he blew the roof off andthere's no roof.
You know, there wasn't anoutdoor concert, but I was like,
yeah, I I can do by do my thing.
But all to me is like I'm uh youknow, I'm just a blues artist
(30:52):
who applies it in every way Ican.
SPEAKER_01 (30:55):
Just a blues artist.
How old were you when you lostyour dad?
SPEAKER_00 (30:59):
Uh about 14.
SPEAKER_01 (31:01):
That's a very tough age to lose a dad.
SPEAKER_00 (31:04):
Yeah, it's it's a tough age, and also what's
really aggravating about it isthat people think when you're
when you lose a father at 14,somehow you didn't know them.
SPEAKER_01 (31:12):
Oh.
SPEAKER_00 (31:13):
Like somehow you always were just a kid, and I
beg to differ.
I think we would bear a clearerview of what was going on in
with him and around him thatpeople would perceive.
And and and one of the things II always say, the thing about my
father that I loved and alwaystried to emulate was that he
didn't treat children likeidiots.
(31:33):
Yeah, people think, oh, he'sjust a kid.
SPEAKER_01 (31:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:36):
And what his approach was and mine and how I
think about it is they're justminds that haven't been exposed
to stuff.
So if anything, they're moreopen and more able to comprehend
stuff that you don't need toprotect.
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:50):
And my dad didn't.
He would talk to me about veryheavy things when Martin Luther
King was killed.
It was my mother's birthday.
And I'm very young at thispoint.
And the phone rings, and it's myfather.
He's on the road and he hadheard, so he called and he
wanted to talk to me about it.
And he said Martin Luther Kingwas killed, and he talked about
(32:10):
it.
Nobody shied me away from it,and no one ran into the other
room, and it was and I and itwas particularly interesting
talking about that inMontgomery, because I said I was
on stage, I said that was one ofthe things, is that because when
you go to the legacy museumthere, or when you go to see the
memorial that's visuallydocuments the lynching that has
(32:31):
happened across this country,it's powerful and overwhelming.
And you can imagine, like, well,why would you want to show a kid
this?
But I grew up with all thatstuff.
I mean, that's the pound thepeople who want to ignore the
civil rights movement are peoplewho aren't the children that
were there were children notonly blown up in the churches
(32:51):
that were blown up, but theywere children also around that,
and people experienced that andthe violence in communities that
we see, you're you're exposed toit.
SPEAKER_01 (32:58):
So I'm curious.
So you've got these this verycomplex lineage.
You don't have children otherthan the tortoise.
And so how do you think aboutlegacy?
You just went to the LegacyMuseum.
You've done this beautiful jobof knitting together a lot of
disparate parts of yourself tocreate music that is from you
(33:22):
and that will live on as yourlegacy.
I guess so.
Your music is your legacy.
SPEAKER_00 (33:26):
I guess so.
I guess I'm not hung up on myown legacy, to be perfectly
honest.
I don't really care if peopleremember me after I'm gone.
But it doesn't I don't thinkthat that's not really it.
And I in a lot of ways, a lot ofways, I know my father didn't
really care either, which isserious counter to what's
happened with his legacy and onthe financial side of things.
Because when the we it was aparty, we were having my dad's
(33:50):
birthday party, and and someonesaid, you know, when you die,
your music's gonna live onforever.
And he was like, What do youmean?
They said, Well, you know, yourmusic.
And I think people forget thisabout my father, but he
basically felt that if he wasn'tthere playing the music, it
wasn't his music, it's not hismusic because he would change it
on the stage, it would evolve,it would become something else.
(34:11):
And it was very much, and themusicians he was with, it was
very much a creative act toperformance.
It was a very much spontaneouscomposition.
Things changed.
He would turn and go, play this.
You know, it was very active.
Later in his life, not as muchbecause he was ill and it was
very hard for him to do it, butit was a time for discovery, and
he wanted the audience on it.
So, in a way, he was like, No,you can't play make his music.
(34:36):
And so it's sort of counter towhat's happened with his music.
Now there's these dedicatedbands that play his music in the
format that he wouldn't want.
SPEAKER_01 (34:45):
Because he was gotta be very awkward for you.
SPEAKER_00 (34:48):
It's awkward for me, and also for musicians that used
to play with my dad that nolonger are part of that thing
because it it's amisrepresentation.
They've actually taken CharlesMigus' music and made it jazz
music.
I I will say that the bands aregreat, and the arrangements are
very great jazz arrangements,but it's not Charles Migus
music.
And I just wish that somebodywould take that chance and say,
(35:11):
let's evolve.
Because I I think the musiciansare amazing.
Some of the best jazz musiciansthat are around right now
playing in this in these bands.
And they'll play thearrangements as written and they
solo or they solo, whereas theconcept musically is should be
evolving and changing and moveand maybe even create new parts
or just try to do it.
SPEAKER_01 (35:28):
Have you ever thought of that person should be
you?
SPEAKER_00 (35:31):
Um I've I've thought about it, but I think I'm
contemplating taking on hismusic in the way that he taught
me that it would be played.
But also there's other music.
Jack Walworth, who's his trumpetplayer three years, tried to
work with bands with the conceptthat he learned from my father,
and it it didn't go well.
Again, it's the Westernrestrictions of what jazz should
(35:54):
be.
And because in the time of myfather's life, jazz became a
real genre, and it has to beplayed a certain way or for
whatever.
I'm not uh not everyone's thatstrict and everything, but it's
uh it's it in some ways almostformulaic.
So I think there's a mingusspirit that needs to go that I
put through in everything I do.
(36:15):
It's not just music when I'mdoing ceramics, woodworking,
instrument building, repairing.
I always try to put a little bitof you know, spontaneity and
creativity in the body.
SPEAKER_01 (36:24):
Well, I I like to think of legacy more in that
way, rather than this, as yousaid, what's happened to your
dad's music, this sort of fixedthing that gets, you know, kind
of crusty and old and irrelevantover time.
SPEAKER_00 (36:36):
Aaron Powell Well, that was the fear when when
Jazz's started wanted to getrecognition in the same way
classical music got recognition.
The fear from a lot of musicianswas well, is it going to become
what classical music has become?
Because my understanding ofclassical music is a lot of it
was there was a room forimprovisation when it was
written.
They would say, Oh, well, theviolin will do a solo over this.
(37:00):
This is what I was told from avery important person.
Said the music used to tour tothe orchestras of each city, and
there were sections where therewould be solos, violin solos or
a vocalist solo or something,and they weren't written in.
But if the music went to a townwhere they didn't have someone
(37:20):
that was really good atimprovising, they would write in
the solo.
So eventually they becamewritten in that classroom music
was just as open and free asjazz to a coach do.
I don't know how true that is,but that there are people that
discuss this all the time.
So the fear was that jazz wouldbecome that.
In a lot of ways, it has,because a lot of it has to do
with teaching.
SPEAKER_01 (37:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:41):
Because you have if you're going to set up an
organization that's going toteach people how to do music,
you have to have something toteach them.
And so it becomes more and morestructured as it goes.
And that's definitely what I'veseen in my lifetime of how jazz
was taught to me in thebeginning, from my father and
other musicians, and then towhat it is now.
And what I do, I I work at the Iwork sometimes at the new school
(38:03):
in New York.
And what I do is I try to teachstudents how to step outside of
that structure again and say,well, just play anything and see
what happens.
SPEAKER_01 (38:11):
You and Catherine have that in common because
she's also teaching people howto to work in the
improvisational realm.
Yeah.
And I was surprised when sheshared with me, it never
occurred to me that that thereare sections of classical music
where it just says, you know,take it away, do your thing.
And she said that certainclassically trained musicians
just sort of freeze in in thatmoment.
(38:33):
Yeah.
That it's a real skill set to beable to just riff on something,
especially in the classicalarena.
I guess we think of that more asa as a jazz thing.
SPEAKER_00 (38:43):
Yeah.
But it's it's in the line ofmusic.
And that's the thing, too.
It wasn't just it it became avery dominant part of jazz is
improvisation, but there are somany different cultures that had
a set structure that getsimprovised over, you know, a lot
of a lot of Native Americanmusicians do it.
SPEAKER_01 (39:01):
So I'm curious when, you know, now that you've had
this experience with Yo-Yo Maand the the this music that just
sort of came to you, and hereyou're in this new land.
Does the land here speak to you?
Do you feel a different kind ofsound or music from New Mexico
than you did when you were inNew York or something?
SPEAKER_00 (39:21):
You know, I think for me, sometimes being away
from New York is probably betterfor me.
You know, it holds it holds alot of memories, some great,
some not so great.
And sometimes you, you know, youhave a group of people that know
you, and they know you for whatyou've done, and they don't
necessarily let you have.
So in some ways it's green to beaway from it.
Um, because a lot of times itgoes, error, come to my gig and
do what you do.
(39:42):
And I'm like, what is it that Ido?
And they're like, you know, thatcrazy shit.
I'm like, yeah, okay.
Um New Mexico to me is I have anaffection for it, and a lot of
it has to do with the fact thereare so many people from so many
different backgrounds heretrying to doing their best to
get along and make it work, andthat's inspiring to me.
(40:02):
And cultures that have been heresince before here became named
here.
SPEAKER_01 (40:06):
Have you had the opportunity to work with any
native musicians?
SPEAKER_00 (40:09):
Uh not here.
That's in the orgs.
We have native blood in theMingus line, but we don't I I
never feel that I want to speakon it because it's not enough to
like I just I want to be an allyand I want to support everyone,
everyone's voice musically.
So I love working with anyone.
(40:40):
And in my case, well, what's thelargest percentage?
And I guess I'll go there, youknow.
This weird concept.
But I really I do like it here,and it definitely helps in my
writing because it puts me in agood headspace.
That's why the studio on thestudio here is really good for
that.
And it's it takes me outside ofwhat I know.
(41:00):
I don't feel like I'd be thesame musician if I was in New
York still.
SPEAKER_01 (41:03):
Yeah.
Well, the reason I was askingabout the native music is to it
just feels like you andCatherine have experience with
musical genres from all over theworld.
And there's there are differentharmonics, there are different
rhythms, there are differentbeats.
And because we're all so mixedup and spread all over the
(41:23):
world, it's really hard to saysometimes what is influencing
what.
So I was just sort of wonderingif that was a curiosity for you.
SPEAKER_00 (41:32):
Well, I meant to say it's curiosity, but it's a huge
part of who I am.
When I was really young, wemoved out of New York City to
western upstate New York.
I want to say near Oneonta.
My mom and her then husbandrented a farm or something and
sort of plumbed into this schoolthat was predominantly white and
(41:52):
full of racists.
And it was very hard.
And I had one friend, and he wasCherokee.
And his grandmother used toinvite they invite me over to
have a meal after school andstuff, so she shared some songs
with me.
And that probably is one of themost influential early voices
because I never heard anythinglike it, and I'm always grateful
for that.
(42:13):
But I don't think peopleunderstand how much uh native
indigenous music contributed towhat our music is in America.
We always say, oh, AfricanAmericans created rock and roll
and stuff, but I was fortunateto meet Harry Smith who did this
folk collection that's the onethat inspired Bob Dylan to be a
(42:36):
folk artist.
And it's this great compilation.
And a lot of it has to do withAppalachia, music and
Appalachia.
And I got to talk with him onseveral occasions.
He was a New York kind of iconand was friends with lots of
friends that I had.
And we started talking about themusic, and I don't think people
realized that Smoky Mountainswas sort of this place where
(42:56):
everybody kind of got together,and I mean got together because
that's how we have all thesemixed-race people.
But it's kind of a fascinatingcollection because I can imagine
when it first came out, onewould have a real hard time
discerning who's black, who'swhite, who because it's
literally just the music throwntogether.
And he said he does that onpurpose.
But he also said it's reallyhard because in the in
Appalachia at the time, you hadwhite people passing for black,
(43:20):
and black people passed forwhite, you had Cherokee people
black passing for white, so tospeak.
And he said, so all that musicreally kind of blended to become
what we know that music to be.
And to say that in that context,that mu American music is devoid
of any indigenous influence isridiculous.
You know, like that just isvalid.
(43:40):
And also there are quite a fewNative Americans that got into
jazz as well.
So it's we're musically, we'reall in on this.
And I think it's time to startnaming those influences.
Because I couldn't sing the wayI sing if it wasn't for the
music that is in my ears.
And when you start reallygetting into vocals specifically
(44:00):
and world music, the voice isjust there there are lots of
blendings and crossovers.
And if you think about how we asbeings traveled across this
world in shared song, we there'sa major influence on that.
I think it's important toacknowledge that there's bleed
in that.
And I would never say that Icame up with anything vocally on
my own.
I pick up stuff in my ears and Ido it.
(44:22):
Now when I play with Yo-Yo, Iconnected with him on a very
deep musical level.
Um I never would have expected.
I mean, I love the guy, he'sgreat.
Every time we get together, thisthing we're doing becomes
bigger.
And it's been great.
SPEAKER_01 (44:38):
Well, it's so exciting, and I feel like music
is is a really beautiful mediumfor bringing people together
that way.
And I was so excited to hearabout this podcast that he's
doing to acknowledge that we allhave our roots in the same
nature.
Yeah.
And I'm really curious to seewhere you go with this because
(44:58):
it seems like it's just thebeginning.
SPEAKER_00 (45:00):
The mill is going to be a big, a big project.
We're in the middle of gettingit more organized because the
story is more than the one song.
And I want to tell the story.
SPEAKER_01 (45:11):
So say a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00 (45:12):
Well, I want to I want to tell my family story,
but I also want to acknowledgethe Cherokee's place in it.
I mean, not that I'm the personto put the words to it, but I
want, like I said, it's stolenpeople brought to a stolen land.
Also, like I said, the whiteMinguses were the first to
settle in that area.
The thing that fascinates meabout the Smoky Mountain area is
interesting because all thesepeople came and settled there,
(45:34):
and then they got boosted out tomake the park itself.
So Teddy Roosevelt came as a getout because we want this to be
really ultimately a playgroundfor the wealthy people because
it was the leisure class.
Everybody else is working sevendays a week.
I don't know if people rememberthat that was our history as
workers, but we did not haveweekends.
SPEAKER_01 (45:51):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (45:52):
People don't understand that, but that's
reality.
And so while we didn't haveweekends, the leisure class was
going to these parks that thegovernment had claimed preserved
the nature, which I guess insome way I'm glad they did.
But so those people who were thesettlers who claimed that land
and took to claim that land orwere given the land by the
government were then ousted.
And the one thing about theSwilky Mountains that is the
(46:14):
positive is that they can'tcharge you to go into it because
that was the deal the settlersmade was that their families are
buried there, and we don't wantanyone ever to be charged to go
visit their family.
So you gotta pay to park.
SPEAKER_01 (46:29):
Yeah.
So the mill is a physicalstructure as well as some land
around the structure that hasthe the slave burial grounds.
SPEAKER_00 (46:37):
And also the the Mingus family.
And up beyond it, there's a youknow a wall-in uh cemetery where
my ancestors were also badpieces, you know, the the white
Mingus is.
And if you go to where theMingus Mill is, you're gonna
come to the Okonalufte visitorcenter.
And if across the streetactually, where you're gonna
drive through, there's thisamazing little open fields where
(47:00):
you'll see oh, but you'll seethese two fields.
And across from that, if you'regoing towards the Mingus Mill,
where that open field is, on theleft is where the Mingus House
used to be.
The main house used to be.
So it's about maybe half miledown the road, you know, before
it.
SPEAKER_01 (47:15):
So I'm just trying to the project is bringing
attention to the property andall the layers of the history
there.
And is it is it also about Yo-YoMa's project, or is that sort of
separate from that?
SPEAKER_00 (47:30):
It's separate from it.
SPEAKER_01 (47:31):
Separate from it just he just decided to bring it
attention to that as part of thearea, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:36):
And he wants to support my story being told
because he feels hits in PortHeat in the context of America
and how we all are.
Because my goal with it is totake this store, the mill, tell
my very personal family story.
And it the original concept isto take I wanted to recreate the
mill, literally build a mill anddrop it in every city and have
(47:58):
it sit there for like two weeks,and I would perform their the
mill show or the composition.
And then I wanted it to be ameeting place.
This is what mills are, where wecould all come and talk about
these things.
And what I really wanted to dois open that space to the people
who are from the area.
So if we plunked it down here inSanta Fe, we would open up to
(48:20):
people who are from this areawhose stories don't get told
that much either, and give thema platform, give artists and
poets and uh sculptors andeverything a chance to tell
their story that is have beenquieted by the overall American
story.
And that ultimately is what Iwant it to be.
I am now fortunate there's thisamazing photographer, Chip
Thomas, who was the doctor on uhNavajo Nation for 30 something
(48:45):
years.
We're working together on thisproject as well.
And so we're, you know, gettingfunding together and it looks
like it's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_01 (48:52):
It's such a strong vision that you have.
And speaking of somebody whodoesn't have a legacy, uh,
that's quite the legacy project.
And it's a legacy project, notfor you personally, but because
I think what one of the thingsthat define defines a legacy
project is while it may comefrom your direct experience, it
speaks to an entire group ofpeople who have whose story has
(49:16):
not been told.
I love this idea of creating themill as a performance that can
be taken from place to place toplace.
And I somehow think that that'swhat you and Yo-Yo Ma are gonna
cook up or might be yourproject.
SPEAKER_00 (49:31):
But it's like I don't know if yo-yo will come
along on it.
I mean, I have projects that areadjacent to it.
I have this vocal ensemblecalled the Sacred Reach Vocal
Ensemble, which is very much inthis storytelling thing.
SPEAKER_01 (49:43):
Um but I feel like the time is so rife right now
and uh for conversations thathighlight those aspects of our
origin stories all.
SPEAKER_00 (49:55):
This is Eric's fun tour of America.
SPEAKER_01 (49:58):
Well, no, it's really it's really important,
and and it's it's the perfectbeginning to a season that is
exploring lineage, legacy,inspiration that comes from all
of these challenging places,right?
And so um I I thank you so muchfor being part of this, and we
(50:21):
will see where it goes.
So thanks for joining us today.
Artstorming is brought to youand supported by Artbridge NM
and listeners like you.
Look for us on your favoritepodcast platforms or wherever
you listen.
(50:41):
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(51:02):
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and an even greater impact onour community.
Please visit our website atwww.heartbridgenm.org.
And thank you so much for beingan essential part of our work.
Have you ever wondered what makes creative
people tick?
Where do their ideas come from?
What keeps them energized?
What kinds of things get intheir way?
Is their life really as much funas it looks from the outside?
Hello, I'm your host, LilyPierpont, and this is
Artstorming, a podcast about howideas become paintings or poems,
(00:24):
performances, or collections.
Each episode, I'll chat with aguest from the arts community
and we'll explore how the mostcreative among us stare down a
blank canvas or reach into thevoid and create something new.
In our inaugural season,Artstorming the City Different,
we dipped our toes into the vastocean of creativity with a focus
(00:44):
on some of our favorite creatorsof Santa Fe, New Mexico.
That conversation was enjoyed byartists and non-artists alike
because it showed us how we canall benefit from learning how to
generate something from nothing,dream bigger, charter new
territories, and solve problemsin new ways.
In season two, we're going totake that concept of generating
(01:05):
our lives with intention to thenext level.
This season, we're talking aboutlegacy, art as legacy, and how
the most creative among ustackle this rich and deeply
personal subject.
Welcome to Artstorming The Artof Remembrance.
(01:25):
My guest today is themultifaceted creative Eric
Mingus.
He's a poet, woodworker,vocalist, musician, composer,
historian, and storyteller.
You also might know him as thecreator of The Middle, a project
so compelling that it recentlyled to a collaboration with
Yo-Yo Ma.
(01:46):
And yes, he's also the youngestson of jazz legend Charles
Mingus.
But no single title captures thetotality of this powerfully
insightful human being.
Eric's story has depth afterdeath, perfectly aligning with
our theme of how lineage,legacy, and death can be
boundless inspirations for art.
(02:08):
This was a challengingconversation precisely because
of that complexity.
We kept uncovering new layers ofrelevance as we went along.
In the vast history of his life,we touched on everything from
the legacy of family and musicaltradition handed down from one
generation to the next, the lossof legacy when the rights to an
artistic body of work are leftto chance, and the profound
(02:31):
impact of our darker legacies ofracism and slavery.
Dive in with me as we unpack thelife and legacy of Eric Mingus.
I am here with Eric Mingus, andI have to say, I've been looking
forward to this conversationsince I spoke to your wife,
(02:52):
Catherine Socora, who wassitting in that very chair at
the end of last season.
Actually, she was the one whosuggested that you would be an
incredible guest for our secondseason because she knew a little
bit about what our second seasonis.
So I think you've just come backfrom a trip that promoted your
latest project.
SPEAKER_00 (03:11):
Well, I yeah, I guess it would be essentially I
went to Montgomery, Alabama withYo-Yo Ma to perform the piece
The Mill that I wrote and werecorded.
And it was just releasedrecently.
And part of the podcast that hehas, Our Convention, which for
the episode I'm featuring on isabout Appalachia, you know, the
the Great Smoldy Mountains.
(03:32):
And we talked about my familyorigins there, and it's pretty
impressive.
SPEAKER_01 (03:37):
And had you been to Alabama before this whole event?
There's some crazy story aboutwhat even how this all happened.
SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
Part of it, I really have to say, is due to a friend
of mine, Hal Wilner, who's nolonger with us, who's a
producer.
Notably, he worked for SaturdayNight Live.
He was the he produced the musicfor the skits, not the bands,
but but he also was a veryeclectic producer and created
these records.
We didn't we didn't call themtrivia records, he didn't like
(04:05):
that, but they would bebasically people from different
musical backgrounds workingtogether on a project that was
devoted to one person composer.
He did one for my father.
The record was called WeirdNightmare.
But he and I became friends as aresult of that.
And I'd been I was working withhim for years on these projects.
Um we do the music of BillWithers or Ooh, I love Bill
Withers.
(04:26):
I'm just trying to think ofDisney shows for years.
And the pr people who helped himproduce many of those shows just
happened to be in the GreatSmoky Mountains with Yo-Yo Ma.
And I got a call.
They said, Eric, we, you know,we're in the Smoky Mountains of
Yo-Yo Ma.
We didn't know that yourgrandfather was born here.
And I said, Well, yeah, youknow, that's where he was born,
(04:48):
you know, but it the history ofthe family there isn't something
we've like run down and dopicnics with though now.
I've changed my mind, and Ithink picnicking on the ground
would be a good thing to do.
They asked, there were a lot ofthings falling into place.
Yo-Yo's presence in the SmokyMountains is bringing attention
to a lot of different things.
And there was at the time therewere park rangers that were
(05:11):
trying to show theAfrican-American history within
the Smoky Mountains because astime went on, it gets forgotten,
you know.
SPEAKER_01 (05:18):
Sure.
And how would Yo-Yo Ma be a partof that story?
SPEAKER_00 (05:23):
Well, Myo No has he's his, you know, our common
nature is uh is really uhrealigning us with our with
nature where we're from, and hewhat he does that's amazing is
he kind of lends his presence tohelp people.
I mean, one of the one of thethings that happened that is on
this podcast as well is one ofthe one of the mountains, it was
called Cleanling Stone.
(05:44):
Um, but the charity were therefor thousands of years, and it
was, you know, the um their theoriginal name was Quilly, which
I think is the Mulberry place.
And they actually, with theOEO's support, it got changed
back to its original name.
SPEAKER_01 (05:56):
Oh, cool.
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
Um and uh so that's what he does, you know, and and
in a way his presence there heconnected me with it.
I don't he wasn't necessarilyinvolved with the initial
project I did there.
That was this um thisorganization called the Office
of Warden Film, um, who workedwith How Wilner and I for years.
(06:18):
And they coordinated with thepark rangers and an organization
called the African AmericanExperience Project, which was
trying to basically show thatwithin the parks there's other
history other than justfootball.
No, you know, there's nosmallwald history.
And I knew, you know, from myfamily what our origins were
(06:38):
there.
I mean, Amingus is a slave name,and my great-grandfather Daniel
was born enslaved, and hehappened to be a very gifted
woodworker.
He built the white Vegas familyhome, and uh we believe he built
the mill that the that's stillthere.
And the mill is there.
It's all the Mingus Mill, youcan visit it.
(06:58):
Its purpose is more to show whata mill was like in the late
1800s.
It's an it's it and it's like ademonstration project.
Yeah, it it used to run.
I don't think it's running atthe moment because they need to
replace a beep.
But you could go and they'd begrinding corn for the chickens
because they it's to demonstratehow life was for the settlers at
the time.
There's usually someone therethat tells you how the place was
(07:21):
run and what it was like.
And the mill is a meeting placewhere people would go to get
their their grain ground up andstuff like that.
It was wrist smooth.
SPEAKER_01 (07:28):
So a center of the community.
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00 (07:30):
Um and the Mingus family built it.
I mean, it's actually the secondone.
There's an earlier one that theybuilt.
Oh, this is the newer one thathad a had a metal turbine that
ran in the water, which isreally the pressing for the era.
And so there's really not muchknown about the family, or at
least they don't talk about itin the in that sense.
And the Mingus family wereapparently the first to settle
(07:52):
in in that area in the SmokyMountains, apparently.
Dr.
Jacob Mingus was the one.
SPEAKER_01 (07:58):
And this is the white Mingus?
Yeah, okay.
Exactly.
So that's well, that's what'ssuch an interesting thing about
I mean, this whole story isreally about the discovery of
these two branches of thefamily.
SPEAKER_00 (08:08):
Is that I guess yeah.
I mean, I'm connected to bothbecause that's how it works.
It's uh Daniel is was born intoslavery.
They say the make the whiteMingus family reared him, so I
don't know exactly how thataligns.
But but Daniel had a had aflagrant affair with the
granddaughter, Clarinda Mingus.
And that's how my grandfatherwas born, so were they of blood
(08:30):
both bloodlines.
SPEAKER_01 (08:32):
Wow, cool.
SPEAKER_00 (08:33):
It's it's you know, it's an awkward thing in some
ways, because without slavery Iwouldn't be here, you know.
It's uh it's a it's awkward, butand interesting, and it and I
have to say I never reallythought to go there.
It wasn't my grandfather.
If you really want to get intothe depth of the story, my
grandfather, you know, lived inthe Mingus household with his
mother.
(08:53):
Daniel moved on.
My great-grandmother moved away.
You know, they didn't want himaround, so he moved on and he
became Daniel West.
He actually changed his name forthe next family that he worked
with, even though slavery wasgone.
SPEAKER_01 (09:05):
Well, I guess that was that was the tradition at
that time, as you took the nameof the family you worked for.
SPEAKER_00 (09:09):
Yeah, I guess.
Or maybe they made him changethis.
I don't know.
You know, they it's um it getsinto there gets in it gets into
some sort of manipulation of oneof the white mingus family
members was the census taker.
At first my grandfather was inthe system as a white mingus,
and then they took him outbecause they didn't want coming
back and laying claim to theproperty.
(09:30):
So when they asked if I wouldcome and write a they said,
would you write a piece for it?
I was like, I guess, you know, Idon't know.
And uh Catherine and I justhappened to be at the time
rescuing a tortoise.
Which sounds funny, but we havea tortoise that was needed at
home.
SPEAKER_01 (09:46):
And a tortoise, as in a thing with a shell.
A desert tortoise, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
It's and uh so we because you can't fly with a
tortoise or reptiles for thatmatter, we had to drive it.
So we were basically drivingfrom New York down to New Mexico
and decided we'd stomp inCharity, North Carolina, or
Smoky Mountains, Great SmokyMountains.
(10:10):
And uh this is before it evenreally commissioned me to do it.
You know, this was just I said,okay, I guess I'll go.
And I went, and it was weird,you know, it was a it was a
strange visit.
SPEAKER_01 (10:20):
And that was your first visit to this land.
SPEAKER_00 (10:23):
Yeah, to that area.
I don't think I'd ever reallybeen to North Carolina that I
recall maybe driven through it,but never really stopped.
And it was fascinating to see itand in some way familiar.
And when we first got there, Iwent to the mill, and at the
time it was it was stillfunctioning, and there was like
you know, a person that greetsyou, and it was at it was sort
of awkward because the guy hewas descendant from a white
(10:43):
family that lived there, and hedidn't really have any knowledge
of the connection with the milland Gerald Mingus.
And I guess it had become kindof evident to me.
I the mill kept popping upbecause the things like
Facebook, where mus bassistswould go and like stand in front
of the mill, you know, and sing,hey, here I'm with Mingus'
Mingus Mills, thumbs up, youknow.
And I was like, Well, it'sawkward.
(11:05):
You're sort of celebratinginflatement in some way and you
know, the creation of my family.
So I didn't really I've beensort of weighing how I feel
about it emotionally, and Istill continue to do that.
SPEAKER_01 (11:14):
Yeah.
I mean, just uh to to interject,did your father know anything
about the history?
SPEAKER_00 (11:19):
Well, he knew it was yeah, he knew that his father
was from there.
I bel I I have a feeling he hadgone there with his dad when he
was a kid.
In the history records of howother people talk about them in
his family, my grandfather left,came back once, but they never
came back again.
But he I know that he visitedhis mother, but she was living
in Tennessee at the time.
But the amazing thing thathappened out of all this is that
(11:39):
I have family down in NorthCarolina I didn't know I had,
um, and they're the West family.
And we've gotten to know eachother, and they and so as we
were talking, basically yourgrandfather used to come here a
lot and hang out with hisbrothers.
Half brothers.
So it was a gang of these guysthat hung out, and they were
apparently pretty formidableguys.
And my my grandfather went on tobe a the Buffalo soldier in the
(12:00):
army.
There's a whole other long storybecause when he ran when he left
the Mingus family, he joined thearmy as a white man because he
had red hair.
And somehow he passed.
So whatever I sent pictures ofhim, like he compared some.
But I guess people did.
SPEAKER_01 (12:15):
Well, you know, there's that whole thing right
now that redheads are all black.
Have you heard that?
I haven't heard that.
Well, I don't know another.
SPEAKER_00 (12:21):
Or have some genuine or something.
But you know, it it and uh heleft and you know married a
white woman.
Like there's this whole otherfamily of Minguses that didn't
know, and I think some know nowbecause of DNA.
So then he got caught basicallyfor passing, and then he left
and rejoined the army as a blackman and became a buffalo
soldier, which of course has awhole other layer of history and
(12:42):
the Indian Wars and all thethings.
SPEAKER_01 (12:51):
Well, no wonder Yo-Yo Ma is so fascinated with
you and the nearer story.
SPEAKER_00 (12:56):
Yeah, I mean he's been he was great, and he is
great.
And like I mean, like I said,the Montgomery thing was purely
it was an event as part of theEqual Justice Initiative.
And they have they have a legacymuseum, they have a memorial.
I mean, it's a it's it's anamazing place to visit.
It you get a sense of thathistory that we all share, not
(13:18):
just African American, but weall share.
And it's intense and it'spainful and it's earth-shaking,
but I am so glad I went.
We I had the option to sort ofgo and perform.
I have to say, graciously, itwas Branford Marcellus's
performance.
And he had Yo-Yo Ma involved inhis compositions that he allowed
(13:41):
me to do on my beast, so I'mreally grateful for that.
And well, dream of a huge fan ofRanford's.
But the uh so I was there for afew days and got to see all this
stuff.
I I could have not, I could havesaid, okay, I'm just gonna say
and focus on the music, but Idecided to go to the museum and
to the memorials, and it it'sabsolutely stunning.
(14:02):
Absolutely important stop tomake, as as difficult as people
would would think it would be.
Because I I grew up in the civilrights movement.
My father marched, I marched andwas involved in the country.
SPEAKER_01 (14:11):
Wait, were you are you from the East Coast or for
the East Coast?
East Coast.
Okay, so you're from New York.
Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:15):
And so, you know, we were very active in that.
I when I was a kid, I went to asummer camp that was more
politically active than anythingelse.
I knew all about the history,but I guess I never in some way
that instilled like, oh, whywould I go to the South?
SPEAKER_01 (14:29):
Well, I don't blame you.
I mean, uh I have the samefeeling.
SPEAKER_00 (14:32):
I don't have a black history.
I will have to say, and this isprobably the stuff I shouldn't
say on here what I'm saying.
I I have a deep love for theSouth.
I lived in Louisiana for awhile, and they have a tendency
to be straightforward and kind,even regardless of their
feelings for you.
Or their interpretations of yourrace, all that stuff.
There's a certain if someone'sracist or something or put the
(14:55):
situation, it's in your face andyou can process it.
Whereas on the East Coast of NewYork, people are racist behind
your back and manipulatingthings and they're like it's
very well hidden because theysay we're the liberals and we're
we're not racist, but it's veryembedded in the system.
And yes, and the thing is whenyou go down to this legacy
museum, you you know, I think alot of times people think the
the Northeast was like free ofslaves or free of lynching,
(15:17):
also.
But they have a deep, deep inputinto that, especially lynching,
as well as uh the profit fromthe slave trade went right to
New York, right to Wall Street,and it's the foundation of much
of the wealth this country wasformed.
SPEAKER_01 (15:31):
Yeah.
Well, this is the reason thatthese conversations are so
important.
As we develop more confidence orcomfort talking about difficult
things, we get to learn what'swhat's really been going on all
along.
But so I'm curious.
So with all this going on, Imean, well, this is the water
you swim in anyway, but thenthere's another whole layer to
(15:51):
it that is is your music andyour father's music and and the
piece of music that came out ofthis whole experience.
Right.
So you were describing, soyou're with your tortoise and
Catherine, and you you'vearrived in the South.
And um, so you know a little bitof the South, you're stopping to
see this history museum, you getto the mill, and uh, had you
(16:12):
already been asked to compose apiece of music at that point, or
this is when you were justtraveling through.
SPEAKER_00 (16:16):
I think we were discussing it, the paperwork is
in the process.
So I get there, and I was toldthat unfortunately the park
ranger who was part of theAfrican American Experience
Project had some car difficultyand couldn't meet me at the
time.
And she said, The slave cemeterywhere your ancestors are is just
past the parking lot orsomething.
(16:36):
And I kept looking for it.
I couldn't find it, I couldn'tfind it.
I went into the the mill and Ispoke to the person there, and
they said, Oh, you have to gothis way or that way.
And Catherine and I ended upwalking miles into the woods.
We saw at least seven snakes, acouple of rattlesnakes.
I was like, just we were like,Where are we going?
And fine, and then finally wesaid, Well, we're not finding
it.
So we turned around.
So we we made it back, but I wasvery frustrated because I
(16:59):
couldn't find that cemetery.
And went back to the hotel, andthe next morning we were getting
ready to leave, and I said, Youknow what?
I'm gonna go back to the milland I'm gonna see if I can find
it.
And sure enough, I just noticedthis path going up, and I was
right there, literally, likeright there.
Um, so I went up, yeah.
So let me sort of hang out thereon my own.
And um I pretty much wrote thepiece right then and there.
SPEAKER_01 (17:21):
So it just sort of uploaded.
SPEAKER_00 (17:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:23):
I mean it was I mean, that's that's my vision of
it.
That's my languaging of it.
But I just sort of feel likethat's I I just imagine you
getting this upload.
SPEAKER_00 (17:30):
Well, I wanted to write about not just my
experience, but it's my blooddown in that soil in the roots
of the trees that are around it.
And I just decided that I wantedto give voice to it as best I
could with what I know.
You know, I grew up with afather who was very outspoken,
not only about his music, butabout politics.
The well-known fables of Baldusabout segregationists, Governor
(17:52):
of Arkansas.
I always traveled this weirdthing of it's music, not
entertainment, or is itentertainment, or is it music?
Or can they be both?
Or can you, you know, can you dothat?
SPEAKER_01 (18:02):
And and um Because your father's take on it was a
little bit more serious orsomething.
SPEAKER_00 (18:06):
He was very serious in what he did.
So it was self-expression, itwas political, it was Yeah, and
and and arguably the titles ofthe pieces were more political
than the actual music, becausethere isn't lyrics, or rarely
there were lyrics, so a lot ofit was the titling just brought
attention to the topics, whetherit could be some sort of
(18:30):
imprisonment thing, somethingabout the justice system, or
racism.
It was very much in it, and hespoke about it very much on
stage, and and uh and I guessthat's sort of the legacy I
carry on, is I I do similarly dothat.
Though I try to be more or havetried to be more diplomatic
about it.
Because we're all I'm mixedrace.
I have a lot of stuff goingthrough me, and uh I think it's
(18:52):
really important that peoplejust view the world not so
categorized.
SPEAKER_01 (18:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:58):
And also allow yourself to be more than what
people determine your race tellsyou you're supposed to be able
to do or not do, or whatever.
And uh you know, that goes forpolitics too, you know.
I don't this hard line betweenDemocrats and Republicans is
ridiculous.
I don't feel anybody reallyaddresses a hundred percent of
what I want politically.
SPEAKER_01 (19:15):
Yeah.
Especially when you grow up in ahousehold where it's very
defined, we ha we have todifferentiate ourselves and come
up with our own version of aninterpretation of life.
And so finding your own voice,whether you're a musician your
musician's voice or yourpersonal voice, is it's a
struggle when you have outspokenparents.
SPEAKER_00 (19:33):
There's no difference between For me,
there's no difference between amusician voice and my personal
voice.
I can't not be who I am andeverything I do.
That's a big part of it.
But does it Yeah, the Millsstory really kind of just
happened and then I built on it.
Originally it was just, oh, I'llwrite the piece and I'll come
perform it.
And I sent it I sent the thedemo in and I got an email or or
(19:56):
a call and they said, you know,yo-yo is obsessed with this
tune, he really loves it andwants to do it with you.
Okay.
And so for background, my firstinstrument was cello, it was
taught to be my father when Iwas five or six, and it was the
same for yo-yo, he was taught byhis father, so we already we
connected on that a lot.
Um, we're not too far apart inage.
(20:18):
I was like, oh my goodness.
And I was very lucky.
I have my dad as my teacher ashe also played cello, and then
he would take me to see Poplovsat Carnegie Hall, so I love the
instrument, and I'd beenlistening to Yo-Yo play for
here, obviously more recordings.
I think I saw him live once along time ago.
But it's we met there at themill, first time, and just
(20:38):
started talking abouteverything, and he's been an
amazing supporter of thisproject in particular.
And when he he was going to bein Montgomery, he felt like you
have to be there.
And luckily it happened.
He mentioned it quite some timeago, and um I'm really thrilled
that it happened because it feltlike the right place to do the
piece.
SPEAKER_01 (20:55):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
And it brought it home for me in a lot of ways.
Sure.
I mean it's not easy stuff totalk about.
It isn't.
And I'm not sure.
The whole thing is everybodygets very defensive.
I mean, it's a big topic.
They're renaming forts again,and maybe arguing about woke.
But it's not about woke, it'sabout remembering that we're all
a community, and we used tofigure out how to get along as
(21:17):
best we could and try to make itbetter for the people it wasn't
so great for.
And the thing about the mill toois that it's on charity land.
They were there before anybody.
And so there's this stolen landthat there's this people that
were stolen and brought there,and we have to figure out a way
to keep coexisting becausewhat's happening now is we're
really just dividing more, andpeople are angry and it's such a
(21:40):
waste.
SPEAKER_01 (21:40):
Well, that that's why I think what you've done,
and you you and Yo-Yo have donewith music is the it's an
incredible unifier.
I mean, me people may have adifficult time accessing a
conversation because of whatevertheir prejudices or fear or
shame that they bring to it, butanybody can listen to a piece of
(22:01):
music.
SPEAKER_00 (22:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:02):
And it just in you know infiltrates us at a
cellular level.
And suddenly I have this fantasythat this piece of music came
through you, that you are theinstrument, and that it's
carrying the healing for thisparticular story.
Now that's probablyover-romanticizing it a little
bit, but I don't know.
Maybe it's notover-romanticizing it.
SPEAKER_00 (22:24):
For me personally, it's been it's been wonderful.
And like I said, I discovered Ihave actual family in North
Carolina that are amazing andwe're part of the same history.
But it also has strengthened mein the sense of all this talking
about this and my father and allof this is difficult in a lot of
ways because it wasn't when hepassed away, you know, when I
was young.
And in a lot of ways, his legacyisn't controlled by his blood
(22:47):
family.
It's taken over by someone else.
And I suppose in a lot of waysyou f feel when you're young and
you lose a parent, and you uhfeel you don't have any say in
your parents' uh existence onthe planet, you think there's
something wrong.
You think that your view must bewrong because people aren't
accepting it.
(23:08):
And uh it's not true.
And and and I'm just as valid inspeaking on my father as anyone.
I know him.
He taught me music.
He was my first music teacher.
I had a deeper understanding ofof him than a lot of people.
But talking about remembering orremembrance, I think I'm coming
(23:29):
to terms with what how peopleare remembered, how histories or
legacies are determined, and I'mstruggling with that a lot.
That my history goes furtherback than my father.
Because a lot of times it's likeI my life has been you're
asking, it's like asked Charleswhat's talking about Charles all
the time.
SPEAKER_01 (23:47):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (23:48):
I'm fine to talk about it.
For a long time I avoided it ifI could, because I was trying to
have my own career.
Sure.
I was making my own music, whichI would say was more blues than
anything else, but they'rejudging me in the jazz context,
and I thought that was unfairbecause it clearly wasn't the
music I was making.
I mean, even and I would say I Idon't really put my music in
genre because the piece I wrote,The Mill, is more lead in in
(24:11):
African-American classical vocalhistory, like with Paul Robeson
and that that issue than it isanything else.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01 (24:17):
Well, that was a question I was obviously wanting
to ask.
It's like was that uploadconsistent with the music that
you normally do?
SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
It's consistent with the music that I feel, to be
perfectly honest.
The tune The Mill is on a recordof mine, but it's called Grinds
My Bones.
So I was gonna ask you aboutthat too.
I switched it for this versionbecause I make music I want to
make, which is how I was taught.
I don't know any better.
I've had tunes that are sort ofrock or blues or jazz or monk
(24:46):
chanting, or you know, like oldstuff.
And I explore the voice as muchas I can because I want to know
the fullness of my instrument,how much I can sing, what sounds
I can make, and I, you know, Ialso, you know, grew up around
such amazing vocalists andcultures that have other ways of
singing.
I'm always working to expand it.
I don't always want to do thesame thing.
(25:08):
It's interesting to me to taketo try and do different things.
And I mimic sounds of birds, andsometimes it sticks, sometimes
it doesn't.
SPEAKER_01 (25:15):
Did your dad no, I mean this is also great.
So um, did your dad get a a achance to experience your
fullness as a musician?
SPEAKER_00 (25:23):
Um, I would s not no, I would say no, because uh I
don't think I discovered untilthen, but I will say that when I
was a kid, I could sing prettywell.
They were doing a talent show inNew York City, PS 198.
And uh I we were doing a talentshow and I was able to sing a
(25:44):
song, you know.
I don't remember what the songwas to be honest.
For some reason Red, Red Rodingoes bop blah blah blah along
comes to mind, but I'm not surethat was the right.
But he couldn't make theperformance, so he came to the
rehearsal.
And he was sitting in the youknow, in the audience and I was
up singing, and it looked likehe was sleeping.
(26:06):
So I was like, Oh great, youknow, dad's sleeping.
But I sang the tune and wewalked back.
And he was like, that was reallygood.
He was like, he was really proudof me.
SPEAKER_01 (26:13):
So he was had his eyes closed and he was
listening.
SPEAKER_00 (26:15):
Yeah, and that's one of the things that he taught me
is listening is the best tool ina lot of ways, too.
Especially in all contexts,listening is important.
We were brought up to be veryobservant and listen.
SPEAKER_01 (26:28):
And did he encourage you to explore in addition to
your voice?
Uh well, obviously cello, butother instruments as well.
And do you have siblings andwere they also musical?
SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
Some are, some are.
I have a sister that's my fullsister.
Again, there's half-brother,half-sister.
It's my bath Dab is married afew times.
Um, my sister has definitely anear for music, but she was more
involved in fashion.
My brother Charles, the oldestCharles III, he's a artist,
painter.
He's been around for ages doinglots of stuff.
Fortunately, we're the lastthree who left living.
(26:57):
There's my brother Dorian, whowas a musician as well.
Then Eugene, another one who wasa musician, but also so yeah, we
were all we're kind of in thearts creative.
SPEAKER_01 (27:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:07):
But grew up certainly separately and and I'm
the youngest.
SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
And so do you feel like you've been able to really
dis differentiate yourself fromyour father's career and strike
out on your own and and feellike you're your own human,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (27:23):
Yeah, I think so.
I mean it was it's probablyeasier for me doing uh singing
rather than playing bass.
I do play bass, you know.
And I mean when he taught mecello, we were kind of he was
kind of teaching me his style?
His style piano way.
I mean, the real thing behindhis teaching of me was that he
recognized there was asimilarity between the way I
(27:44):
could pick up an instrument,having no knowledge of the
instrument, find the notes onit, and be able to make music.
And I, you know, and he does thesame.
He could, he could play, heplayed cello in the youth
orchestra in LA and was great.
And then they just, you know,and he was like second cello or
something to playing it.
And then when he made the firstcello chair, they realized he
(28:05):
couldn't read very well orsighting very quickly left, you
know.
So he had to really work on itbecause sometimes your natural
ear can stop you from learningmore of the theory and stuff.
But then on the other hand,learning it by the page and
being devoted to the page canalso limit your expressions.
So I think she was hoping toteach me through that.
(28:25):
And in a way, I think you did.
I I have good ears and you canpretty much throw me in any
situation and I'll hold my own.
SPEAKER_01 (28:31):
So do you think do you think of yourself more as a
a composer?
SPEAKER_00 (28:35):
I find I have a difficult time calling myself
anything, to be perfectlyhonest.
When you're mixed race, peopleare always telling you to decide
what are you, which is the worstquestion.
Someone has to ask that to me toknow where you are.
Right, exactly.
And then no matter what I wouldchoose, someone else would look
at me and decide I'm somethingelse.
So it's like it's not up to mewhat my race is.
So I don't acknowledge itanymore.
(28:55):
I'm like, I'm just who I am, andI do the best I can to get
through this life unscathed.
And then with music, all thepeople I know that create music
listen to other music, they'renot just one thing.
And yo-yo, I went in and go, Oh,it's yo-yo ma.
And I did not expect him to workwith me on a piece.
And then we are even talkingabout doing more now and trying
to figure out what that wouldlook like.
SPEAKER_01 (29:17):
So I guess maybe the the the better question is not
how do you define yourself, butis there one thing that gives
you more joy?
Do you was what's your mostjoyful expression?
SPEAKER_00 (29:28):
I don't know.
I mean, I love singing, youknow.
I really, I really do.
I love creating music, but I Ido working with the audio has
been really exciting because wenever play it the same twice.
He's improvising behind me justas much as I'm working around
him.
It's and it's it's beautiful.
It's really like so when wefirst did it, he listened to the
tape and he came up with his ownpart, and it was great.
(29:50):
And I loved working with it.
And we did it again anothertime, and it evolved into
something else.
And then this time we did it inMontgomery, it was even better
because he gets more into.
It and and knows what possiblyknows where I might go.
I tell anybody I work with, Ican rehearse it with you for
weeks.
And when I guarantee you, whenI'm out there in front of the
audience, I'm gonna go somewherethat no one expects me to go,
(30:10):
even me.
Because that's what I do.
And when I to hit back to HalWilner, the producer that I
worked with, that's what hecounted on.
He would put me in the showwhere he was worried, like he
would do this multi-order show,and he'd put me in the in the
schedule right where he thoughthe'd need me.
Because I'd come out there andhe knew I would shake it up.
(30:31):
I think the gig uh I did a thingin Tennessee and Knoxville with
Yo-Yo Ma and friends, and likewe got to do the milk.
But I think, you know, when Idid the piece, uh, people was
like, he blew the roof off andthere's no roof.
You know, there wasn't anoutdoor concert, but I was like,
yeah, I I can do by do my thing.
But all to me is like I'm uh youknow, I'm just a blues artist
(30:52):
who applies it in every way Ican.
SPEAKER_01 (30:55):
Just a blues artist.
How old were you when you lostyour dad?
SPEAKER_00 (30:59):
Uh about 14.
SPEAKER_01 (31:01):
That's a very tough age to lose a dad.
SPEAKER_00 (31:04):
Yeah, it's it's a tough age, and also what's
really aggravating about it isthat people think when you're
when you lose a father at 14,somehow you didn't know them.
SPEAKER_01 (31:12):
Oh.
SPEAKER_00 (31:13):
Like somehow you always were just a kid, and I
beg to differ.
I think we would bear a clearerview of what was going on in
with him and around him thatpeople would perceive.
And and and one of the things II always say, the thing about my
father that I loved and alwaystried to emulate was that he
didn't treat children likeidiots.
(31:33):
Yeah, people think, oh, he'sjust a kid.
SPEAKER_01 (31:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:36):
And what his approach was and mine and how I
think about it is they're justminds that haven't been exposed
to stuff.
So if anything, they're moreopen and more able to comprehend
stuff that you don't need toprotect.
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:50):
And my dad didn't.
He would talk to me about veryheavy things when Martin Luther
King was killed.
It was my mother's birthday.
And I'm very young at thispoint.
And the phone rings, and it's myfather.
He's on the road and he hadheard, so he called and he
wanted to talk to me about it.
And he said Martin Luther Kingwas killed, and he talked about
(32:10):
it.
Nobody shied me away from it,and no one ran into the other
room, and it was and I and itwas particularly interesting
talking about that inMontgomery, because I said I was
on stage, I said that was one ofthe things, is that because when
you go to the legacy museumthere, or when you go to see the
memorial that's visuallydocuments the lynching that has
(32:31):
happened across this country,it's powerful and overwhelming.
And you can imagine, like, well,why would you want to show a kid
this?
But I grew up with all thatstuff.
I mean, that's the pound thepeople who want to ignore the
civil rights movement are peoplewho aren't the children that
were there were children notonly blown up in the churches
(32:51):
that were blown up, but theywere children also around that,
and people experienced that andthe violence in communities that
we see, you're you're exposed toit.
SPEAKER_01 (32:58):
So I'm curious.
So you've got these this verycomplex lineage.
You don't have children otherthan the tortoise.
And so how do you think aboutlegacy?
You just went to the LegacyMuseum.
You've done this beautiful jobof knitting together a lot of
disparate parts of yourself tocreate music that is from you
(33:22):
and that will live on as yourlegacy.
I guess so.
Your music is your legacy.
SPEAKER_00 (33:26):
I guess so.
I guess I'm not hung up on myown legacy, to be perfectly
honest.
I don't really care if peopleremember me after I'm gone.
But it doesn't I don't thinkthat that's not really it.
And I in a lot of ways, a lot ofways, I know my father didn't
really care either, which isserious counter to what's
happened with his legacy and onthe financial side of things.
Because when the we it was aparty, we were having my dad's
(33:50):
birthday party, and and someonesaid, you know, when you die,
your music's gonna live onforever.
And he was like, What do youmean?
They said, Well, you know, yourmusic.
And I think people forget thisabout my father, but he
basically felt that if he wasn'tthere playing the music, it
wasn't his music, it's not hismusic because he would change it
on the stage, it would evolve,it would become something else.
(34:11):
And it was very much, and themusicians he was with, it was
very much a creative act toperformance.
It was a very much spontaneouscomposition.
Things changed.
He would turn and go, play this.
You know, it was very active.
Later in his life, not as muchbecause he was ill and it was
very hard for him to do it, butit was a time for discovery, and
he wanted the audience on it.
So, in a way, he was like, No,you can't play make his music.
(34:36):
And so it's sort of counter towhat's happened with his music.
Now there's these dedicatedbands that play his music in the
format that he wouldn't want.
SPEAKER_01 (34:45):
Because he was gotta be very awkward for you.
SPEAKER_00 (34:48):
It's awkward for me, and also for musicians that used
to play with my dad that nolonger are part of that thing
because it it's amisrepresentation.
They've actually taken CharlesMigus' music and made it jazz
music.
I I will say that the bands aregreat, and the arrangements are
very great jazz arrangements,but it's not Charles Migus
music.
And I just wish that somebodywould take that chance and say,
(35:11):
let's evolve.
Because I I think the musiciansare amazing.
Some of the best jazz musiciansthat are around right now
playing in this in these bands.
And they'll play thearrangements as written and they
solo or they solo, whereas theconcept musically is should be
evolving and changing and moveand maybe even create new parts
or just try to do it.
SPEAKER_01 (35:28):
Have you ever thought of that person should be
you?
SPEAKER_00 (35:31):
Um I've I've thought about it, but I think I'm
contemplating taking on hismusic in the way that he taught
me that it would be played.
But also there's other music.
Jack Walworth, who's his trumpetplayer three years, tried to
work with bands with the conceptthat he learned from my father,
and it it didn't go well.
Again, it's the Westernrestrictions of what jazz should
(35:54):
be.
And because in the time of myfather's life, jazz became a
real genre, and it has to beplayed a certain way or for
whatever.
I'm not uh not everyone's thatstrict and everything, but it's
uh it's it in some ways almostformulaic.
So I think there's a mingusspirit that needs to go that I
put through in everything I do.
(36:15):
It's not just music when I'mdoing ceramics, woodworking,
instrument building, repairing.
I always try to put a little bitof you know, spontaneity and
creativity in the body.
SPEAKER_01 (36:24):
Well, I I like to think of legacy more in that
way, rather than this, as yousaid, what's happened to your
dad's music, this sort of fixedthing that gets, you know, kind
of crusty and old and irrelevantover time.
SPEAKER_00 (36:36):
Aaron Powell Well, that was the fear when when
Jazz's started wanted to getrecognition in the same way
classical music got recognition.
The fear from a lot of musicianswas well, is it going to become
what classical music has become?
Because my understanding ofclassical music is a lot of it
was there was a room forimprovisation when it was
written.
They would say, Oh, well, theviolin will do a solo over this.
(37:00):
This is what I was told from avery important person.
Said the music used to tour tothe orchestras of each city, and
there were sections where therewould be solos, violin solos or
a vocalist solo or something,and they weren't written in.
But if the music went to a townwhere they didn't have someone
(37:20):
that was really good atimprovising, they would write in
the solo.
So eventually they becamewritten in that classroom music
was just as open and free asjazz to a coach do.
I don't know how true that is,but that there are people that
discuss this all the time.
So the fear was that jazz wouldbecome that.
In a lot of ways, it has,because a lot of it has to do
with teaching.
SPEAKER_01 (37:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:41):
Because you have if you're going to set up an
organization that's going toteach people how to do music,
you have to have something toteach them.
And so it becomes more and morestructured as it goes.
And that's definitely what I'veseen in my lifetime of how jazz
was taught to me in thebeginning, from my father and
other musicians, and then towhat it is now.
And what I do, I I work at the Iwork sometimes at the new school
(38:03):
in New York.
And what I do is I try to teachstudents how to step outside of
that structure again and say,well, just play anything and see
what happens.
SPEAKER_01 (38:11):
You and Catherine have that in common because
she's also teaching people howto to work in the
improvisational realm.
Yeah.
And I was surprised when sheshared with me, it never
occurred to me that that thereare sections of classical music
where it just says, you know,take it away, do your thing.
And she said that certainclassically trained musicians
just sort of freeze in in thatmoment.
(38:33):
Yeah.
That it's a real skill set to beable to just riff on something,
especially in the classicalarena.
I guess we think of that more asa as a jazz thing.
SPEAKER_00 (38:43):
Yeah.
But it's it's in the line ofmusic.
And that's the thing, too.
It wasn't just it it became avery dominant part of jazz is
improvisation, but there are somany different cultures that had
a set structure that getsimprovised over, you know, a lot
of a lot of Native Americanmusicians do it.
SPEAKER_01 (39:01):
So I'm curious when, you know, now that you've had
this experience with Yo-Yo Maand the the this music that just
sort of came to you, and hereyou're in this new land.
Does the land here speak to you?
Do you feel a different kind ofsound or music from New Mexico
than you did when you were inNew York or something?
SPEAKER_00 (39:21):
You know, I think for me, sometimes being away
from New York is probably betterfor me.
You know, it holds it holds alot of memories, some great,
some not so great.
And sometimes you, you know, youhave a group of people that know
you, and they know you for whatyou've done, and they don't
necessarily let you have.
So in some ways it's green to beaway from it.
Um, because a lot of times itgoes, error, come to my gig and
do what you do.
(39:42):
And I'm like, what is it that Ido?
And they're like, you know, thatcrazy shit.
I'm like, yeah, okay.
Um New Mexico to me is I have anaffection for it, and a lot of
it has to do with the fact thereare so many people from so many
different backgrounds heretrying to doing their best to
get along and make it work, andthat's inspiring to me.
(40:02):
And cultures that have been heresince before here became named
here.
SPEAKER_01 (40:06):
Have you had the opportunity to work with any
native musicians?
SPEAKER_00 (40:09):
Uh not here.
That's in the orgs.
We have native blood in theMingus line, but we don't I I
never feel that I want to speakon it because it's not enough to
like I just I want to be an allyand I want to support everyone,
everyone's voice musically.
So I love working with anyone.
(40:40):
And in my case, well, what's thelargest percentage?
And I guess I'll go there, youknow.
This weird concept.
But I really I do like it here,and it definitely helps in my
writing because it puts me in agood headspace.
That's why the studio on thestudio here is really good for
that.
And it's it takes me outside ofwhat I know.
(41:00):
I don't feel like I'd be thesame musician if I was in New
York still.
SPEAKER_01 (41:03):
Yeah.
Well, the reason I was askingabout the native music is to it
just feels like you andCatherine have experience with
musical genres from all over theworld.
And there's there are differentharmonics, there are different
rhythms, there are differentbeats.
And because we're all so mixedup and spread all over the
(41:23):
world, it's really hard to saysometimes what is influencing
what.
So I was just sort of wonderingif that was a curiosity for you.
SPEAKER_00 (41:32):
Well, I meant to say it's curiosity, but it's a huge
part of who I am.
When I was really young, wemoved out of New York City to
western upstate New York.
I want to say near Oneonta.
My mom and her then husbandrented a farm or something and
sort of plumbed into this schoolthat was predominantly white and
(41:52):
full of racists.
And it was very hard.
And I had one friend, and he wasCherokee.
And his grandmother used toinvite they invite me over to
have a meal after school andstuff, so she shared some songs
with me.
And that probably is one of themost influential early voices
because I never heard anythinglike it, and I'm always grateful
for that.
(42:13):
But I don't think peopleunderstand how much uh native
indigenous music contributed towhat our music is in America.
We always say, oh, AfricanAmericans created rock and roll
and stuff, but I was fortunateto meet Harry Smith who did this
folk collection that's the onethat inspired Bob Dylan to be a
(42:36):
folk artist.
And it's this great compilation.
And a lot of it has to do withAppalachia, music and
Appalachia.
And I got to talk with him onseveral occasions.
He was a New York kind of iconand was friends with lots of
friends that I had.
And we started talking about themusic, and I don't think people
realized that Smoky Mountainswas sort of this place where
(42:56):
everybody kind of got together,and I mean got together because
that's how we have all thesemixed-race people.
But it's kind of a fascinatingcollection because I can imagine
when it first came out, onewould have a real hard time
discerning who's black, who'swhite, who because it's
literally just the music throwntogether.
And he said he does that onpurpose.
But he also said it's reallyhard because in the in
Appalachia at the time, you hadwhite people passing for black,
(43:20):
and black people passed forwhite, you had Cherokee people
black passing for white, so tospeak.
And he said, so all that musicreally kind of blended to become
what we know that music to be.
And to say that in that context,that mu American music is devoid
of any indigenous influence isridiculous.
You know, like that just isvalid.
(43:40):
And also there are quite a fewNative Americans that got into
jazz as well.
So it's we're musically, we'reall in on this.
And I think it's time to startnaming those influences.
Because I couldn't sing the wayI sing if it wasn't for the
music that is in my ears.
And when you start reallygetting into vocals specifically
(44:00):
and world music, the voice isjust there there are lots of
blendings and crossovers.
And if you think about how we asbeings traveled across this
world in shared song, we there'sa major influence on that.
I think it's important toacknowledge that there's bleed
in that.
And I would never say that Icame up with anything vocally on
my own.
I pick up stuff in my ears and Ido it.
(44:22):
Now when I play with Yo-Yo, Iconnected with him on a very
deep musical level.
Um I never would have expected.
I mean, I love the guy, he'sgreat.
Every time we get together, thisthing we're doing becomes
bigger.
And it's been great.
SPEAKER_01 (44:38):
Well, it's so exciting, and I feel like music
is is a really beautiful mediumfor bringing people together
that way.
And I was so excited to hearabout this podcast that he's
doing to acknowledge that we allhave our roots in the same
nature.
Yeah.
And I'm really curious to seewhere you go with this because
(44:58):
it seems like it's just thebeginning.
SPEAKER_00 (45:00):
The mill is going to be a big, a big project.
We're in the middle of gettingit more organized because the
story is more than the one song.
And I want to tell the story.
SPEAKER_01 (45:11):
So say a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00 (45:12):
Well, I want to I want to tell my family story,
but I also want to acknowledgethe Cherokee's place in it.
I mean, not that I'm the personto put the words to it, but I
want, like I said, it's stolenpeople brought to a stolen land.
Also, like I said, the whiteMinguses were the first to
settle in that area.
The thing that fascinates meabout the Smoky Mountain area is
interesting because all thesepeople came and settled there,
(45:34):
and then they got boosted out tomake the park itself.
So Teddy Roosevelt came as a getout because we want this to be
really ultimately a playgroundfor the wealthy people because
it was the leisure class.
Everybody else is working sevendays a week.
I don't know if people rememberthat that was our history as
workers, but we did not haveweekends.
SPEAKER_01 (45:51):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (45:52):
People don't understand that, but that's
reality.
And so while we didn't haveweekends, the leisure class was
going to these parks that thegovernment had claimed preserved
the nature, which I guess insome way I'm glad they did.
But so those people who were thesettlers who claimed that land
and took to claim that land orwere given the land by the
government were then ousted.
And the one thing about theSwilky Mountains that is the
(46:14):
positive is that they can'tcharge you to go into it because
that was the deal the settlersmade was that their families are
buried there, and we don't wantanyone ever to be charged to go
visit their family.
So you gotta pay to park.
SPEAKER_01 (46:29):
Yeah.
So the mill is a physicalstructure as well as some land
around the structure that hasthe the slave burial grounds.
SPEAKER_00 (46:37):
And also the the Mingus family.
And up beyond it, there's a youknow a wall-in uh cemetery where
my ancestors were also badpieces, you know, the the white
Mingus is.
And if you go to where theMingus Mill is, you're gonna
come to the Okonalufte visitorcenter.
And if across the streetactually, where you're gonna
drive through, there's thisamazing little open fields where
(47:00):
you'll see oh, but you'll seethese two fields.
And across from that, if you'regoing towards the Mingus Mill,
where that open field is, on theleft is where the Mingus House
used to be.
The main house used to be.
So it's about maybe half miledown the road, you know, before
it.
SPEAKER_01 (47:15):
So I'm just trying to the project is bringing
attention to the property andall the layers of the history
there.
And is it is it also about Yo-YoMa's project, or is that sort of
separate from that?
SPEAKER_00 (47:30):
It's separate from it.
SPEAKER_01 (47:31):
Separate from it just he just decided to bring it
attention to that as part of thearea, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:36):
And he wants to support my story being told
because he feels hits in PortHeat in the context of America
and how we all are.
Because my goal with it is totake this store, the mill, tell
my very personal family story.
And it the original concept isto take I wanted to recreate the
mill, literally build a mill anddrop it in every city and have
(47:58):
it sit there for like two weeks,and I would perform their the
mill show or the composition.
And then I wanted it to be ameeting place.
This is what mills are, where wecould all come and talk about
these things.
And what I really wanted to dois open that space to the people
who are from the area.
So if we plunked it down here inSanta Fe, we would open up to
(48:20):
people who are from this areawhose stories don't get told
that much either, and give thema platform, give artists and
poets and uh sculptors andeverything a chance to tell
their story that is have beenquieted by the overall American
story.
And that ultimately is what Iwant it to be.
I am now fortunate there's thisamazing photographer, Chip
Thomas, who was the doctor on uhNavajo Nation for 30 something
(48:45):
years.
We're working together on thisproject as well.
And so we're, you know, gettingfunding together and it looks
like it's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_01 (48:52):
It's such a strong vision that you have.
And speaking of somebody whodoesn't have a legacy, uh,
that's quite the legacy project.
And it's a legacy project, notfor you personally, but because
I think what one of the thingsthat define defines a legacy
project is while it may comefrom your direct experience, it
speaks to an entire group ofpeople who have whose story has
(49:16):
not been told.
I love this idea of creating themill as a performance that can
be taken from place to place toplace.
And I somehow think that that'swhat you and Yo-Yo Ma are gonna
cook up or might be yourproject.
SPEAKER_00 (49:31):
But it's like I don't know if yo-yo will come
along on it.
I mean, I have projects that areadjacent to it.
I have this vocal ensemblecalled the Sacred Reach Vocal
Ensemble, which is very much inthis storytelling thing.
SPEAKER_01 (49:43):
Um but I feel like the time is so rife right now
and uh for conversations thathighlight those aspects of our
origin stories all.
SPEAKER_00 (49:55):
This is Eric's fun tour of America.
SPEAKER_01 (49:58):
Well, no, it's really it's really important,
and and it's it's the perfectbeginning to a season that is
exploring lineage, legacy,inspiration that comes from all
of these challenging places,right?
And so um I I thank you so muchfor being part of this, and we
(50:21):
will see where it goes.
So thanks for joining us today.
Artstorming is brought to youand supported by Artbridge NM
and listeners like you.
Look for us on your favoritepodcast platforms or wherever
you listen.
(50:41):
Your subscriptions, likes,comments, and shares help us to
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And we've been offered amatching grant that will match
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