ArtStorming the City Different: April Cleveland

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What happens when a group of professional actors abandon conventional theater, move into a house together during a global pandemic, and reimagine how performances are created, staged, and funded?

Music for ArtStorming the City Different was written and performed by John Cruikshank.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Ever wonder what makes really creative people
tick?
Where do their ideas come from?
What keeps them energized?
What kinds of things get intheir way?
Is their life really as muchfun as it looks from the outside
?
Hello, I'm your host, liliPierpont, and this is
ArtStorming, a podcast about hownew ideas come to life and
become paintings, sculptures,plays or poems, performances or

(00:25):
collections.
Each episode, I'll chat with aguest from the arts community
and explore how the mostcreative among us stare down a
blank canvas or reach into thevoid and create something new.
I am with April Cleveland, and Iwill have not to prompt her to
project her voice because she isan actor.

(00:46):
Well, I'm a director, she's adirector at her current, but
you've been an actor, right, Imean you, you, you present in a
very I give actor, you giveactor, yeah.
So anyway, we're here, and shewas nice enough to come to my
house, and Bree is also here, sohopefully she won't make any
noise, but okay, so I'm so gladyou're here and I had the great

(01:08):
privilege of seeing aperformance a pre-performance, I
guess is what you call it ofCyrano, and it was amazing.
And during that.
So I'm going to let youintroduce yourself, because your
story is so great During that.
So I'm going to let youintroduce yourself because your
story is so great and one of thereasons I wanted to get you on
this episode is because I saw apresentation that you gave at

(01:31):
Creative Mornings and yourorigin story is one of the most
compelling I have heard in along time.
So I'm just going to give youthe mic and let you do that all
over again.
Okay, yeah, so you got started,I mean, and how you got to Santa
mic.
And let you do that all overagain.
Okay, yeah, so you got started,I mean, and how you got to
Santa Fe and how you startedExodus yeah, so I want to hear
it all.
Okay, I want them to hear it all.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
So I'm going to I'll distill a little because that
talk was, like you know, 30minutes long.
But basically I was born inChampaign Illinois, and I
started acting when I was a kid.
And you know, you're not reallyable to, you can't, you can't
be a child director, so the onlyway that I had access to
theater was through doingmusicals and um performing at

(02:15):
school and performing in, likeevery community but were you
wanting to be a director becauseyou wanted to, you were bossy
already and wanted to to, or youhad a vision already.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
Is what a better way to say?

Speaker 2 (02:26):
it.
You know, I think I wasdirecting very young, naturally,
like on the playground, like Iwould force my friends like I
couldn't imagine why they didn'twant to do this all recess, but
I would like force them to bedirected by me in these like
skits or plays at recess, and Iwould get like a lot of pushback
and it was kind of the onlything that I wanted to do, like

(02:46):
from elementary school.
So I guess I started doing thatreally early and I realized
that I wanted to direct when Iwas like maybe 12 or 13.
And it was because I wouldwatch this director in this
summer theater company that Iwould do and I would just sort
of feel like that's what I wantto do.
Like I see her running therehearsal and giving notes and

(03:09):
having a vision, and I don'teven remember why, but it was
just like I was very attractedto that role in the room and um
kind of set my eyes on that whenI was I don't know like 13
years old and then, under afterhigh school, undertook a very
long training program that Idesigned for myself, um, to set

(03:32):
myself up to enter the world asa director.
So I started with four years ofacting school at the Strasburg
Institute in West Hollywood.
I moved to LA in high school sothat was like in my backyard.
Um did that for four years.
Then came to Santa Fe for thefirst time and went to St John's
college because I knew thatthat was.

(03:53):
I didn't talk that much aboutthat at creative mornings, but
St John's was like probably themost foundational educational
period for me as a director,because for me directing starts
with being able to find thedeepest questions and
contradictions within a text andthat just for people who don't

(04:15):
know about saint john's.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
It's a, it's a curriculum that's based on the
classics.
Yeah, so it's a deep immersioninto a very I don't want to say
limited, as if it's limited, butinto a very specific number of
books and texts that you godeeply into.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, and you get.
It's a very peculiar school andyou have to be.
It's not a school that mostpeople would want to go to
because you get no choices.
So if you go to St John's, youhave an all required curriculum
across all four years.
So if you go to St John's, youhave an all required curriculum
across all four years, and it'snot just the humanities, it
includes math and science.
And there's no textbooks, likeeverything is from a primary

(04:51):
source, which is reallyattractive to me, because I was
sort of like uncomfortable withthe idea of textbooks and
secondary literature in generaland there was something really
appealing about like I reallystruggled with math in high
school but like what if I couldgo back to the beginning and
what if I could study math, um,starting with Euclidean geometry
, like before, there's numbersand is there something about

(05:13):
like going all the way back tofirst principles and then
working your way to modernity?
That could like kind of answerthis question that I was looking
for in literature andphilosophy and drama and math
and science.
So I went there because Iwanted to be able to look at any
text, whatever it was, nomatter how hard it was, and find
my way into it and I thoughtthat like okay, if I'm going to

(05:35):
be the kind of director I wantto be, then I want to be able to
tackle anything, even if it'snot like my gift, like a math
text or something.
So I went to St John's for fouryears, met my partner, which is
important in my story.
We were both students.
Then I went and got my MFA indirecting in Chicago at DePaul
university and that is where Igot to practice directing um

(05:59):
intensively for three years andI got to work with like really
amazing undergraduate actors.
After St John's or sorry, afterDePaul I started directing um in
Chicago and New York and I wasabout to go to London to help
bring over some West end showsto New York.
So things were like veryexciting and big and that was

(06:21):
2020.
And so COVID happened and I wasworking on a show.
It was about to open, it wasshut down and then, like
everything I had lined up forthe next year and a half, which
was a lot of huge projects, werejust like bam, bam, bam.
It was like, within you know,two weeks, everything.
16 months out just stopped, yeah, um, and it did for everybody I

(06:44):
knew.
And then, in July of 2020, mypartner, who was um defending
his dissertation at the time,was hired back at St John's um
to be on the faculty.
And so we sublet our apartmentin Chicago where we were living
and we drove to Santa Fe.
And on the way to Santa Fe, Igot the idea that all these

(07:09):
incredible actors I knew who Ireally wanted like.
My vision was like okay, oneday I'm going to be, I'm going
to have be up there enough as adirector that I'll be able to
get all these people back into aroom together.
And all I wanted was to likehave this group of people that
I'd gone to school with, whowere so amazing, um, be able to
be in a show together that Iwould direct?

(07:30):
And I was like that might be in15 or 20 years, but in COVID
they all lost their work.
So I was like you know what?
I'm going to invite them all tomove to Santa Fe, new Mexico,
with me for what I thought wouldbe a short period of time and
just make some work together.
So I sent this like crazy eightpage email about why I thought

(07:51):
they should move to Santa Fe,what I wanted to create together
and, um, and also that theyneeded to do it in like three
weeks and that we'd figure itout.
So I sent the email on July30th of 2020.
And on September 1st of 2020,uh, I think eight actors arrived

(08:14):
in Santa Fe and we all movedinto a house together and we
started to create work together.
That answered the question.
Create work together thatanswered the question how can we
make theater?
That isn't boring to us?
Because we were allprofessional Well, I'm a
director but they were allprofessional actors trained in

(08:36):
theater but had gotten veryquickly soured by what was
available in the professionalregional theater world and we
wanted to make something that wewould be captivated if we could
see.
And so we spent a lot of timeinterrogating everything about

(08:57):
theater and coming up with thevalues that we would share and
rally around and create workaround, and we chose words like
color, saturated, fast paced.
What else was there?
Like daring, edgy, irreverent,like disgusting but sexy, like

(09:18):
we just chose these words andwe're like, okay, we're going to
make work like that.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
Well, I just want to pause for a second, because all
those um terms that you justthrew out are exactly we're.
We're very much present in the,in the presentation that I saw.
That's great, yeah.
So I mean, yeah, you, you'vesucceeded in taking it not only
from inception to what's.
This is your.
What performance?

Speaker 2 (09:41):
the zero, now 400, something it's our seventh like
production, production thatwe've created together, and like
our 400, something umperformance together
unbelievable, so go back to so.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
So you are crafting this way forward and you're all
living in the house together,and that must have been its own
story yeah it was and was, andyou know I had a sense, I was.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
I was a bit older than everyone else because I had
been a grad student when I metall these undergraduate actors,
so they were all 22 years old,ish.
When they moved here I was like31.
Um, and I had this sense thatlike, okay, not only do we need
to go back to the firstprinciples of what matters to us
in live theater, we need to goback to the first principles of
what matters to us in livetheater.
We need to go back to the firstprinciples of how people

(10:30):
coexist together, cause I hadthis feeling that like okay,
this could go really wrong andhaving any like, we should never
just assume that we share thesame living standards.
So I remember this moment thatat the time I felt like was so

(10:51):
silly.
But now I'm glad I did this,where I've had everybody
together and I've picked up aspray bottle and a paper towel
and demonstrated how to spraydown a counter, and then cause I
was I just remembered fromearly roommate situations that
so much bad stuff happens whenwe don't communicate and share
standards about how to sharespace, and so I was.
I feel like it's reallyimportant that we know how to do

(11:13):
this, or everything's going tofall apart.
And we like instituted a weeklydeep clean, which have a full
blown spreadsheet checklist, andevery week there was three
hours set aside where the househad to be deep cleaned, and so
it was a combination of insanetheatrical experimentation and
an experiment in like how do youget 10 people to share a space

(11:38):
without killing each other?
And it was sort of equal parts.
Yeah, it was St John's in a way, because it was like let's go
back to the beginning ofeverything.
Yeah, how to make art happywith each other.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
I mean, you hear about exercises, that companies
where they take people to kindof do a bonding exercise.
What better bonding exercise?
And the fact that you were ableto integrate the theater into
it.
I mean, were people prettylighthearted about it and kind
of took on roles and practicethings, or what did that end up
looking like?

Speaker 2 (12:10):
Or were you just scrubbing toilets.
Like whether people well, wewere definitely scrubbing
toilets, but we, I mean, I thinkthe thing I really thought
about before I brought everyonetogether was like what is this
going to look like and where arewe going to focus our time?
And we, I knew, we knew that wewere going to take these three

(12:32):
months to create one major work,and that was a decision.
And then, on the side of that,we would create, you know, other
smaller, adjacent projects, andthen we would also take time to
train as an ensemble and toforge a vocabulary together
through different methods, fromactually actor training

(12:56):
exercises to going up, you know,going up the mountain together
to the Ospens and like pitchingsource authors.
So we had a lot.
We were focused on the hydrosthat we were going to undertake
and we knew we were going tomake one big thing.
And so it was like how are wegoing to do that?
That was a question.

(13:16):
We ended up choosing to read abunch of public domain texts,
and the reason we did that wasbecause anything in the public
domain which is before it'ssomething like 1923.
It changes every year by a year.
We can change it however wewant.
So if you take something thatwas written in the 1800s.
You can slice it up and you canedit it, and you can inject it,

(13:40):
and you can say it in your ownwords, and there's nothing wrong
with that, and is that why wesee so many iterations of
shakespeare, for example?
it might be.
Yeah, it's like shakespeare,checkoff, ibsen, um, any, yeah,
anything before 1920.
Something is just like up forgrabs, right, it's also, um,
something you don't have to payfor rights for.
So it was like we were thinkingpractically in a way which is

(14:03):
like, well, we don't have anymoney, so we can't buy rights,
and also we don't want to be.
We want to be loyal to theauthor by identifying what we
think is the essence ofsomething and then adapting it

(14:23):
into our own voice and our own.
So, again, very saint johnsianyeah, yeah, yeah, and it was
like we don't want to.
We're not going to be beholdento an author because they're, uh
, important or because they'reold or because they wanted
something.
We're going to look into thetext for ourself and we're going
to find what we think are thebones and the muscles, and then

(14:45):
we're going to discardeverything else and we're going
to try to make something thathopefully the original author
and who cares because they'redead would either be really
proud of or really angry at, butthat we decide as a group is
like the DNA that we're going totake and run with.
So we read all these publicdomain texts, we read the Bible,
we read Shakespeare, chekhov,ibsen, we read a bunch of stuff,

(15:09):
and then we ended up voting onthe author.
So the author we voted on wasChekhov, and it was because we
had a literary appreciation ofChekhov.
But none of us had ever beensatisfied seeing Chekhov and we
were like, okay, this issomething you study in school,
it's something you know isbeautiful, but when you go to

(15:32):
see it, it very rarely makes youlaugh out loud or actually cry
or feel alive.
Can we make it feel alive?
So we, we voted on Chekhov andthen we pitched all of Chekhov's
major plays to each other andwe took a vote on which play it
would be, and we ended upselecting the play Ivanov, which

(15:55):
is one of his least known plays, and it's about.
It's basically about a sad guywho has a series of tragedies
that he kind of brings uponhimself and ends up taking his
own life, and so we chose thatshow, but we chose to do it

(16:15):
through the lens of like ateenage drama, and we were
thinking about TV shows likeSkins or Degrassi or like the OC
, and we were like, ok, chekhovis about all these relationships
between people who are likekind of in love with each other
but kind of hate each other butkind of can't but, but have a

(16:38):
lot of unrequited feelings.
Well, that's a lot like showswe watch, like Euphoria or the
OC.
What if we made a Chekhov playthat felt like that fast paced
and like that high stakes?

Speaker 1 (16:50):
Right and add all those those terms into it, like
the colorful and the yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, and so that was our challenge to ourself.
We were like we're bored everytime we go to see this.
What's wrong, Can we unboringit?
And then we set about devisingthat show and we made it in our
house from September to Decemberof 2020.
And Santa Fe was totally shutdown.
Every you couldn't go inrestaurants.

(17:17):
It was that period.
So we didn't have anybody elsein town.
We just had each other and ourlike excursions to the hot
springs and stuff.
So we had like ourselves, ourhouse and the outdoors, and we
would just spend every daycreating this show through our
own weird process, which is aseries of like improvisations

(17:38):
that get iterated over time sohow did you?

Speaker 1 (17:41):
did you start with the script and then deviate?
Or did you rewrite the script?
Or did you just get to know thematerial so well that you just
say, let's do the scene wherethis and such happens Go?

Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah, we actually try .
We we kind of intentionally tryto not get to know the script.
Well, like we read it.
I think we read Ivanov twiceand then we put it down and we
never looked at it again.
And then we did an exercisewhere we're like, ok, everybody,
we've read it once or twice,we're not allowed to look at it.
Write down all the major eventsthat you remember.

(18:14):
And it was sort of an exerciseto be like what from your gut,
what's stuck?
Yeah, what sticks, what's thestory, without being able to
look and be like, well, thishappens and this happens.
And from that exercise we wereable to get like a vertebra of
like major events and we neverlooked at the script again.
And then we started thinkingabout, okay, it's a this many

(18:37):
act play, these are the bigthings that happen in each act.
Let's start improvising aroundthose events and like we also
are going to have to kill offall the adults because
everybody's 22 in our companyand so, like that play has, like
these two important parentalfigures, our parental figures
like die in a car accident atthe very beginning, which sort
of sets the show in motion.

(18:58):
And then we would um createcharacters, relationships and
events that have been translatedinto our at the time, like 21st
century world, with thesecharacters in this place, and
our characters in ivanov aresanta feans like they're these.

(19:21):
They're these siblings who livein new york who have a lot of
money and their parents die inthis car accident.
And they decide that they'rethese.
They're these siblings who livein New York who have a lot of
money and their parents die inthis car accident.
And they decide that they'regoing to go back to their roots,
which is this like house inSanta Fe, because that's where
we lived, and so it's like, well, we're in this house, this is
the house that these characterslive in and this is the house
that the other characters kindof come into, and this is where

(19:41):
it's going to take place, and sowe would like create scenes in
every room.
And that play just started toorganically be this experience
that moved from room to room,and it was this old house, like
many are in santa fe, that hadthis like wraparound, um, like
retainer wall, so it alreadyfelt like this kind of old

(20:02):
chicovian estate and likeeverything was connected.
There was like 30 doors, becauseit's santa fe and and it would,
the whole experience would justlike weave from room to room
like a real rabbit warren yeah,and it's like this scene would
be out in the front lawn andthen you'd climb through the
window and it would be the nextscene in the bedroom and then
and this is all a co-creation,yeah, and as a director, yeah,

(20:25):
like that's.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
You know, you're gonna have to help me understand
a little bit between you.
Know, obviously you're notimposing a vision, you're.

Speaker 2 (20:34):
You're letting everybody kind of co-create and
then you're sort of steppingback to see what's working,
what's not working is that, yeah, I give a lot of prompts like
go make something like this thathas like these qualities, like
you're gonna make a scene, gooff for 10 minutes and make a
scene where these characters areat a birthday party and this
character sees her boyfriendkiss somebody else, and it needs

(20:55):
to have a moment of slow motionand a moment where a pop song
plays in a moment whereeverybody's talking at the same
time and how do you know to dothat for the scene?

Speaker 1 (21:05):
How do I know yeah, I mean, like, where does your
inspiration to say I want to seethis, this and this, to give
the directive, like, have you?
It's just so hard for me tounderstand If you haven't, if
you're not working from anarrative and you haven't
already seen it, how do you knowwhat to even like what context
that you want to create?

Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yeah, that's a good question.
I mean, I guess we do startwith an original story.
So we're like, all right,beginning, middle end, beginning
, character, these characterscome together.
Or like some of them cometogether, Like this play has
maybe 15 characters, but we onlyhave six people or seven people
, so it's going to have seven.

(21:51):
Who are the seven?
Let's start experimenting withcharacters.
So go off and make a scenewhere there's this character, z
and this character, ivanov, andthey're doing something.
It's just this process of likelayering, where it's like, well,
if at the end of the day, we'regoing to need characters,
events and relationships, thenwe're going to create 1500
little scene lists that explorecharacters and you kind of pick

(22:13):
and explore scenes and explorewhat the relationships are like,
and then we're going to need aplot and it's like, over time,
these improvisations andbeginning to sequence them
together starts to create a verylike macro draft of something
and it doesn't have most of thethings you need for the play,

(22:34):
but you're like, okay, it seemslike what we're, what we're
getting attracted to, are likethese seven characters and and
then just to interject there,how on earth do you figure out
who the character is?

Speaker 1 (22:45):
your ensemble is a very diverse group of people
with, you know, I'm sure, veryspecific types of personalities.
So how do you cast somethinglike that?
Do you decide that, oh, youwould probably be the right
person for Ivanov, or does thatemerge from the whole?

Speaker 2 (23:04):
collaboration?
Yeah, because, well, especiallythe first few shows, I didn't
do any casting and what's kindof nice is.
It's like, well, the actor iscreating.
Anytime they dive into animprovisation, they're bringing
all of their skills andqualities to whatever that role
is they're creating in themoment.

(23:25):
So it's like I don't have anidea.
Well, that's not what Ivanov islike.
So I'm like, well, I don't knowwhat Ivanov is like in this
version.
You are what Ivanov is like.
So it's like if Nick Wren,who's the original Ivanov,
starts to like be Ivanov in theimprovisations that we start to
do, we're like okay well, you'reIvanov and he's like this.

(23:48):
And then Kaya, who you just sawin Cyrano.
She plays Sasha, who's thislike 16 year old, like YouTube
diva, who is like extremelyexuberant but her parents have
just died and she's dealing withthis like insane grief that
she's covering up by being thislike um social media youtube

(24:12):
star.
And it's like, well, that sashais the sasha that emerged from
kaya playing that role inimprovisations from the
beginning, and so it just startsto patterns start to emerge, I
guess, and then other choicesstart to fall away.
So it's like, if there's abillion choices to begin with,

(24:34):
then each time we do anotherimprovisation, something becomes
clearer and we start to go downa pathway so that eventually
it's like, well, clearer, and westart to go down a pathway so
that eventually it's like well,it looks like kaya is sasha, the
16 year old gracie is anna, thesick girlfriend of ivanov.
Garrett is the like boisterousgay boyfriend who is trying to

(24:54):
like keep this house in order.
And people just start to fallinto who they're going to be and
I just accept it.
And it's like as, as they startto jive with something they're
playing, I'm like, okay, like itseems like you're really
clicking and like something'sreally starting to happen and we
just like, without, withoutverbally saying anything, this

(25:17):
like agreement about what we'recreating starts to unfold.

Speaker 1 (25:20):
Yeah, so you really become a unit, a single unit
that's moving.
We're hearing the coyotes yeah,that's why she was starting the
book.
So we're going to hear Bree andthe coyotes doing the
background to April's podcast.
I love that.
Hold on.
We might have to hold on.
We're going to just break forone second.
Okay, we're back.
The coyotes seem to have calmeddown, they've calmed down and

(25:43):
Bree has calmed down a littlebit.
So we were talking aboutcasting and getting in character
and you guys are.
So now you're kind of moving asa unit, like a dance troupe or
jazz musicians or anything.
You're working as an entity.
How did that carry over backinto living?
So you're practicing this play.

(26:04):
You've got something likeactively that you're creating.
Do you?
Did the characters come backinto your living situation?
Like, how did you separatepractice from life, especially
in isolation?
I?

Speaker 2 (26:20):
mean that was a weird , I don't know.
I mean that it was a weird, Idon't know.
I mean it was a weird timeCause you, you referenced like
when people go on retreats forbonding and it's like this was
that was such a funny timebecause there was no clear
picture of when it would be over, so like, as opposed to a
retreat, it felt more like Lordof the flies, Like this is what

(26:43):
the world is now.
We don't know when that's goingto ever change, and so it was
like I think when we go toretreats, we're like, well, this
is going to end.
Then we go back to life andhopefully we learned something,
and this is like we're forging anew world and there was
something, so we were able tosurrender into the creation of
it all because there was not adefinite end date.

(27:05):
So I think living was like I hadsuch a different experience
than most people's in COVID,because most people were alone
or with their partner and I waswith nine people for most of
COVID in a house together,working every day, and it was
wild, but it was also veryorderly in the sense that, yeah,
that's a crazy thing to do, butat the same time, we had to

(27:29):
wake up every day and everyonehad to meet on my rooftop at 8am
and we would write morningpages, which is a practice from
Julia Cameron's the Artist's Way, where you have to write three
handwritten like journal pagesevery day, and we all did the
artist way together.
So all 12 weeks of it, and itwas like you had to be there
date and if you were late it waslike, hey, why were you late,

(27:50):
don't be late.
Then after that we would likestart rehearsal and then we
would have designated lunchtimes and then we would keep
rehearsing and there was aschedule every single day.
So it was like there were crazythings, like we would all go to
the mountains together but atthe same time, we like kept this
very regimented schedule inorder.

(28:11):
I think to say we're decidingto do this crazy thing together,
but we're working Like we'renot here just like screwing
around.
We are actually very seriousand we need to complete this big
project and did you know what.

Speaker 1 (28:28):
What did complete look like that you were going to
perform it, and did you knowthat?
Were you going to perform it inthe house, or was that you know
, like, yeah, from a stage, likehow did you figure that part
out?

Speaker 2 (28:38):
well, we knew we'd never.
We knew it wasn't for a stageand we knew that we were.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
We knew it wasn't for a stage, like we knew that
wherever it ended up being andwhere it ended up being was
every room of our house, thatthat's the kind of experience
that it was but did you have youever been to a venue where,
where it happens, like I mean,we talked about the McKittrick
Hotel, I think is what it'scalled, but still, I mean that's

(29:05):
a theatrical venue for the mostpart.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
I had done some site-specific work before, like
I had done with three of theoriginal actors in Exodus.
I had done a project with theMCA Museum of Contemporary Art
in Chicago and we had created ashort adaptation of a kafka
novel in a freight elevator andso yeah, at mca, and so I

(29:31):
already had this like attractionto different kinds of spaces
and I was sort of like overprosceniums and so that was
something that was like alreadyvery interesting to me so that
was that.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
That's was part of your um intention when you came
here is that you were going todo part of what was going to be
uncharacteristic of typicaltheater was even the venue.
You knew.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
Yeah, because in my head when we, when I invited
everyone to move here, we wouldrehearse outside.
Um, that was like the obviousthing in my head.
But then when we got here, itwas more complicated because we
found out we couldn't be outsidein groups larger than five in
santa fe.
So, okay, well, we're notactually allowed to be together

(30:22):
in public, so I get or outside,so I guess we'll do it in the
house, and so that was kind of ashift.
But as soon as we startedshortly after we started like
creation mode in the house, itwas like, oh yeah, it's in a
house and checkoff plays areusually in houses and they're

(30:44):
like these groups of people thatcome together in houses and
then there's like dynamite thatexplodes because you're shoving
different groups of people whohave complicated feelings for
each other into an estate andwe're like, oh, that's where we
are.
We're in this estate wherethese families are coming
together so when did you finallyperform it?

(31:09):
yeah.
So we basically we worked andworked and worked on it and we
created this show from scratch.
That was like almost four hourslong it's a little shorter now,
it's like three hours long andchange.
But we were like, okay, we needto do it for someone, cause we
don't know if we're going tostick around or like what's

(31:30):
going to happen next year.
So we had our friend who we'dgone to school with, um drive
down from Utah and film it,cause he had a lot of like
behind the camera experience andwas also an actor.
He came down for like two orthree days and we showed it to
him and then he filmed likearchival, an archival like tape

(31:50):
of it.
And then we were like, well,that's great, but we want to
like do it for someone.
And so my I had a friend herewho I'd gone to saint john's
with and we called her and wewere like I called her, no one
else knew her, and I was like,do you want to see this thing
that we made?
And she was like, okay, so shecame over to the house and we

(32:22):
performed.
This was like I just had likewhat was worth like a $3,000
ticket.
And that's when I was kind oflike huh, like that's
interesting, because I didn'tthink about money at all and I
hadn't thought about like well,what is the value of this
experience?
And she was like well, that wasone of the greatest artistic
experiences of my life and Ifeel like the value is like so

(32:47):
high.
And I was like the first timeI'd heard I hadn't even thought
about like money or like howthis would work, because we
didn't.
We didn't know if we'd keepdoing it.

Speaker 1 (32:58):
And then she was so for you is that in the doing of
it, and how?
How was her and I want to getback to the money piece, but how
was her witnessing of it?
How did that impact theexperience of having done it?
So you've been working on thisfor months and months, and
months and months, and now youhave this, this third thing or
this yeah, yeah, because we'ddone it like I'd seen it.

Speaker 2 (33:20):
But I'm very different, because it's like I'm
making it with them, watching,watching it with them.
My partner had seen it, but hewas also sort of like in the
group Matt, who'd filmed it, hadseen it.
But then when Maggie came, itwas like I don't know.
It was like okay, like therewas like that little bit of um,

(33:43):
nervousness that we hadn't hadwith each other and it was all
for one person, right For fourhours of taking them through
this like pretty epic experiencethat ends in like a profoundly
tragic way that they'rewitnessing alone.
So it was.
It was exciting and nervewracking.
And then afterwards we just didthis like I don't know 30
minute like and nerve wracking.
And then afterwards we just didthis like I don't know 30

(34:05):
minute like feedback sessionwith her, cause it felt like we
should.
And then she left and then Ilike had coffee with her, like a
week later, and it was likethrough her eyes that I started
to see that like maybe makingthis happen was not as crazy as

(34:26):
I thought it was and that thingsthat seemed so nuts to me, like
well, yeah, like at the timeshe was like, well, how much
money do you need to raise tolike keep people here?
And I was like, oh, I don't know, like $20,000.
And in my head that was likeimpossible.
And she was like, okay, well,it's not that bad.
And I was like really, and itmy head that was like impossible
.
And she was like, okay, well,it's not that bad.
And I was like really, and itwas like I would talk to her.

(34:46):
She works in a pretty highposition at Meow Wolf and so she
was able to like start gettingthis kind of business and number
stuff into my head in a waythat was very new at the time
and just like begin to thinkabout, like, what does it mean
to crunch numbers?

(35:06):
What would you need to charge?
Does charging even make sensewith, like how expensive it
would be?
And those conversations sort ofset up the groundwork for
taking very seriously like whatdoes it mean to keep doing this
together as the pandemic startsto, you know, fade away?

Speaker 1 (35:28):
a little bit.
And so what was the experienceof your fellow ensemblers?
I mean, did, did they?
What was it as satisfying forthem to just have?
I mean, if the goal was just toproduce this thing, that
wouldn't bore you.
And you've gotten to the pointwhere you have the beginning,
the middle and end.
You've got the choreographythrough the rooms.

(35:48):
You've got a thing, you'vethinged it, you've done that.
Now it's done.
Is there a hunger to start fromscratch and do a whole other
one?
Or was it not complete untilyou got to have the audience
experience?

Speaker 2 (36:04):
Say a little bit more about, yeah, that space we
wanted to show people, but wehad to make the decision, like
when we showed Maggie, it wasDecember of 2020, so everybody
was gonna leave and go to theirfamilies for the holidays and we
had to make the decisiontogether, like, like, after the
holidays, are we going to comeback or are we going to go back
to like our normal life?

(36:25):
And we decided that we'd comeback, and I think people were.
They were eager for the work tobe shown, but it seemed like
people were equally eager tobegin the next thing, but it
seemed like people were equallyeager to begin the next thing.
And so, when we got back andmoved into a different house

(36:48):
together, we did start showingIvanov Well, we had to translate
it into the new house, sure andthen we did start showing it.
And, at the same time, westarted developing the next show
together.
And did you use the sameprocess?
We used the same pitchingprocess, yeah, so everybody
could put forth a source text,we would investigate, we would

(37:12):
vote, and then the final winnerwas chosen through a vote.
And that second show wasBathsheba from the David and
Bathsheba story in the Bible.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
Well, it must have been so satisfying for you to
have the dream fulfilled ofknowing that at some point you
wanted to work with this cast ofincredible actors.
And now you've done it, you'vesucceeded.
So what was going through yourmind?
Did it just whet your appetitefor more?

(37:45):
I mean, what role did you playin in convincing them or
inviting them to take on thisnext project of Bathsheba?

Speaker 2 (37:57):
I mean, I think my main other than the creative
which is directing the pieces is, and especially in the early
years was figuring out how tomake it possible logistically,
because doing it was really hardand we never were part-time.

(38:20):
So it was always like my beliefand I think, our shared belief
that to create somethingextraordinary means doing it all
the time, full time.
And it's a little bit differentfor, like, a visual artist or a
solitary artist can create, makea schedule, um, a group of

(38:43):
people, like in my art form, weneed everybody to be there
together all the time and thatmeans that this has to be
everybody's job.
And that's really hard to do,especially when we didn't have
very much money.
So it was like, okay, we stilldon't have very much money, but
it was like we need a house thateverybody can pay $300 a month

(39:07):
for rent and afford.
We need to share cars.
We need to get everybody onMedicaid and health insurance.
We need everybody to apply forfood stamps.
We need to, like, make theconditions that make it possible
for a group of 10 people towork together eight hours a day,
every single day.
And I think the thing I didthat's most important actually

(39:31):
isn't artistic.
It was this like tirelesscommitment to the fact, to the
belief that doing this wouldrequire it to always be a
full-time job for everyone, andfiguring out how that would be
possible.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
And so you know you've taken it out completely
out of the context of a typicaltheater venue where people are
buying tickets and you know thethe income or the revenue stream
is certain based on how manyseats you can fill and all of
that.
So how did you get from thisgerm of an idea to bringing

(40:13):
people in and the performance?
From what I understand, it'sstill not an expensive ticket,
it's free, it's a volunteer pay,as you what you want.
So how on earth did you figureout the mathematics to make that
work?
And that really points toanother skill set that you have,
in addition to mastermindingthis incredible creative

(40:37):
component, to be able tomastermind a context, a
financial context, for this isanother kind of creativity.
So say a little bit how you gotto that.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
Yeah, well, I think it.
It required being very attunedto everyone's individual needs
and being like okay, life is acombination of, among other
things, how much things cost.
How can I make that cost so lowfor people?

(41:11):
What is it going to take?
Well, it's going to take peopleonly needing to pay $300 a
month for rent.
Student loans are suspendedright now.
I know they don't have to paythat right now.
They make so little money.
I know they don't have to paythat right now.
They make so little money.
I know they can get food stamps.
Okay, that's going to give them$200 a month for groceries.
Then I just need to cover alittle bit more right now for

(41:32):
them.
And so it's getting like reallyspecific about like, what's the
in and out of people's incomeversus expensive expenses, and
everyone's in a differentsituation.
But I could kind of be likewell, I know what the rent costs
because we're all being housedtogether.
I know what this costs.
I know what this costs.
So I just had to be reallyintentional about creating that

(41:54):
whole like ecosystem of howliving would work, which
required really tough livingconditions for a while, because
living together and workingtogether in that in any context
is pretty crazy and that wasnecessary for the beginning and
I think important that that's nolonger how we live, but it was

(42:17):
how it had to be for the firstcouple of years when the way
revenue started working and ithappened really fast.
Right, because it's like wemade this play.
We showed it to one person inDecember.
Everyone went home.
I had to scout and negotiatefor like super cheap rent for
like two houses for the team.

(42:38):
They came back in February.
We started performing foraudiences of six at a time in
March and it was these tinyaudiences and it was just sort
of an accident that after eachperformance we'd be like hey, if
you liked that, like pleasemake a donation.
And we started to notice thatpeople would give a lot, like

(43:01):
people who seemed like they werejust like us would be like wow,
that was life changing.
And there were only six of ushere's like five hundred dollars
and we're like whoa, likepeople are really giving and
that money because we didn'thave overhead like rent for a
theater or like operationalcosts.

(43:22):
It was like everything in isgoing to go in a bucket to then
go back out to these artistsbecause the only thing that
matters is they need to haveenough money to live and we just
did that, performance afterperformance, and we would.
I remember the first timesomeone gave like I remember the
first time someone gave, like Iremember the first time someone

(43:43):
gave $1,000.
And I was just like that's themost money like I've ever seen.
That's crazy.
And then I remember a coupleweeks later, someone came to a
show, who I didn't know, andthey pulled me aside afterward
and they were just like this,really unassuming, like southern
gentleman, and he was like thatwas amazing, I want to give you
$30,000.
And I was like that, that wasamazing, I want to give you

(44:03):
thirty thousand dollars and Iwas like what.
And I like took him to lunch andI was like thank you so much,
like what do you like, what doyou want?
And he was like I just wanty'all to stay here and keep
doing what you're doing.
And I was like, okay, well,maybe we just need to be really
upfront and honest and be likewe're doing this.
If you want it to be here,please support us.

(44:26):
And also we acknowledge thatsome people some people's $50 is
the same as some people's$5,000.
Some people's $5 is the same assome people's $1, dollars.
And to, I think, always givevoice to that explicit
difference in people and thenjust ask people to like show up

(44:48):
in the way that they can and bysaying that every single
performance we found that likeokay, the performance you went
to, someone gave $5, someonegave a thousand dollars, someone
gave $50, someone gave fivehundred dollars, and it's like a
bunch of people gave tendollars and people sort of come
together and make this thingwork and it's really like

(45:12):
unpredictable.
And yet it's been likepredictable, show after show
that's just so amazing.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
It's really crazy, yeah, and I think it's just like
amazing.

Speaker 2 (45:21):
It's really crazy, yeah, and I think it's just like
obviously, we're all reallypassionate about what we do and
the group is extremely talented.
That's really important.
But also we just ask people forwhat we need and then we we
produce a lot as well, andpeople have been pretty amazing

(45:43):
in meeting us, where they are,where we are, and last year we
raised $600,000.
But also that's what it costsnow, whereas when we started,
it's like it costs a lot.
Well, we didn't even thinkabout costs.
I was just like well, I needthese people to be able to live.
And now it's like well, we have10 or 11 professional artists.

(46:06):
This is their job, job, this iswhat they do every day.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
They need to be compensated fairly and they've
all moved from wherever theycame from to santa fe and
they're now permanent residents.
We're so lucky to have all ofyou, yeah and so now I want to
drill down a little bit, and andso here you are, 400 episodes.
I mean, uh, yeah shows showslater of however many you said,

(46:31):
seven productions or something,and um, currently in in the
Cyrano series, which was just socreative.
And so I don't want to sayhilarious, because there were
some hilarious parts, but therewere some very dramatic, very
poignant, very touching parts,to the point where I was crying

(46:51):
and I couldn't help but noticeeven though I was so captivated
by what was going on, becauseoften you were not too there
were 16 of us in the audience.
Yeah, 15 of us.
And so sometimes we were sort ofall lined up and you'd be there
at the end taking notes, andthere was another gal who was
also taking notes.
I noticed and so I waswondering.
I mean, the the version of whatI saw was flawless, I would say

(47:15):
, and so I was I'm.
I asked you this the other daylike what on earth were you
taking notes about?

Speaker 2 (47:21):
Yeah, everything from technical stuff that has to do
with light and sound, but moreoften scene work stuff, because
we're creating the show togetherand it's always fresh, always

(47:45):
fresh, and especially in theseearly performances, it changes
every day.
I'm watching to understand likehow does this scene need to
work?
And to hear something like no,you shouldn't say that.
I think you should saysomething more like this or like
that scene went on, that scenespun out longer than it needed
to.
Why don't you just like?
Why don't you just end it Likeafter you hit the conflict here?

Speaker 1 (48:04):
So so in a scene like that, because again you have no
script, yeah, and so an actorhas to remember, from from scene
to scene, from show to show,what approximately what they did
the time before, what thedynamic was, and obviously it
gets so in their bones that theycan do that.
Yeah, but how do you give noteson something that is so

(48:26):
immediate and in the moment?

Speaker 2 (48:28):
yeah, in a very normal way actually.
I mean it is.
They are extraordinary, theyare some of the most.
They have some of the mostincredible muscles that act as
actors because they have to beable to take a note from me and
implement it, like immediatelyin the next show and do it every
single night, just likechanging they, every show they

(48:52):
do up through opening and beyond, is different and they have to
be ready to take an adjustmentand just run with it.
And that's not a skill, that'sa rare skill and the speed with
which they're able to likesynthesize a note is pretty rare
and comes from doing this allthe time and being really
talented.
But giving notes is actuallyvery it's very normal and in a

(49:16):
way it's a lot like how I did itin my previous director life,
where it's like, okay, well,you're going to get a note.
It might be about saying linesdifferently, but it's just we.
We give the notes and wereceive the notes like you would
an actor in a play with ascript.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
Well, I mean, obviously they have a certain
amount of trust in you that youknow you're seeing it from the
audience perspective and youhave a perspective that that
they can't see because they'rein it doing it so you're, you're
a bird's eye view, or yeah, forlack of a better word, and so
you know you, you get to see thewhole, the whole context yeah,

(49:56):
yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:57):
And every night it's sort of like they're.
It's sort of like we're writinga novel and it's not done yet,
and it's it's either a novel ora symphony, but it's not done
yet.
And so every night we'rechanging the notes or the
sentences to try to get it tothat living, breathing ecosystem

(50:18):
where the entire thing is indialogue with the rest of the
entire thing.
And to get there, that meansthat the chapters are going to
have to change every night.
The way the chapter starts isgoing to have to change and
they're in it like as thesecharacters, as these sentences,
and they have to just be readyto be like okay.
Well, tonight we're cuttingchapter three and tonight, maybe

(50:38):
last night, chapter four endedwith this big bang, but it's
just going to end with thislittle whimper, and they're like
okay, and then we might like Imight give them a note and be
like did you want to just trythat real quick?
And they'll be like no, I'mgood, I'll do it in performance
tonight.
Or they might be like yeah,let's try that.
And so they're just ready.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
And with 16 audience members, I would imagine.
I mean, given that it was aninteractive experience as an
audience member and you know, myname was actually woven into
the context of the show and Iwas sort of startled.
I was like, oh, there's a Liliin this show, and then I
realized that you were justriffing off whoever was in the

(51:18):
audience, and that was really.
It was startling in a good way,you know.
But obviously there is an.
They have a skill set asimprovisers that they can kind
of take into consideration whothe audience in in that slice of
time is.
I mean, we had a.
I had brought Brie, so you had.
You know, even Brie got intothe action somehow, I'm not

(51:41):
really sure how she was referred.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
I'm sure she did yeah .

Speaker 1 (51:43):
But you know, it was just.
It's fascinating.
So do your artists express?
I mean, this must be amazingfor them, your whole troupe,
because they've leftconventional theater and now
they're doing this with you.
What feedback do you get fromthem as actors in this
experience?

Speaker 2 (52:02):
I mean it's a lot.
We ask a lot of our actors.
So I think it's like probablyit's some of the most
challenging, intensive work thatan actor can undertake and it's
very physical and it's very.
I mean they're running I don'tknow how big those galleries are
Tons of tens of I don't knowtens of thousands of square feet
and as you experienceexperience, you're moving from

(52:24):
place to place.
Meanwhile the actors, to get toa place, are having to run
around the whole building to getin.
So it's very physical, it'svery emotional and it's very
demanding in terms of like howpresent and aware you have to be
and be with the audience everynight.
So I think it's really hard.
But the level of like autonomythat an actor gets to have in

(52:46):
terms of what they're creatingin exodus is really pretty high.
They still most of them, dotheir primary theater work with
exodus.
We have someone on broadwayright now he'll be back later
but they do lots of tv and filmand commercials outside of this
work.
So it's like they're they're onset, but that's a very

(53:09):
different.
It's like almost the oppositein the.
You know, it's like amicroscopic slice of something
that you're shooting and thenyou're stopping and everything
is very precise.
So I think it's actually reallyuseful that they're moving back
and forth from like TV and filmand camera work back into
Exodus work, because I think ourwork, though like highly

(53:30):
theatrical, also feels, it feelscinematic immediate, it feels
kind of like TV show e movie e.
So I like them to be, I likethem to be TV and film actors
who then can bring that into amore expressive medium of
theater.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
So do you think that this is, you know, what you've
hit on here is something that isum trending in theater in
general, or is it very, veryunique to you guys?

Speaker 2 (54:11):
I don't know enough about theater to be able to to
comment about that.
I think it's pretty unique tous because it requires it
required us to create acompletely different framework
of creation.
So, like in my former life as adirector, you get three weeks
to rehearse and then you knowthere's no time for risk.
Everything is just like um, toolittle time, too little
everything.
Well, because it's part of afinancial machine, a machine
that's like not conducive toanything except like a very

(54:34):
systematic way of programming.
And I was always just like,well, that's not how art works
and like, sure, that's how thesebig theaters work.
But I don't think, and I thinktheater is demonstrating that
it's not how art works and likesure, that's how these big
theaters work, but I don't think, and I think theaters
demonstrating that it's notgoing to keep surviving with
audiences unless it changes.
And so I think I don't know,like even the McKittrick Hotel

(54:56):
that you saw, sleep no More.
That is an immersive theater,but it's a very different style
than ours because it's likeenvironmental, like you're
exploring an environment.
Ours moves from room to room,but it's all driven by the
acting and the narrative, whichto me, is like how can we take
what's most essential abouttheater, which is an opportunity

(55:19):
to see extraordinary acting andextraordinary stories, and keep
those things there as theheartbeat, but then adopt
contemporary frameworks that canbe exciting again to people?

Speaker 1 (55:37):
Well, yeah, I mean, there's no lack of excitement
with what you're doing.
So I should add that, when youwere referring to the thousands
of square feet, you are nowdomiciled at CCA, which is
important to say, and hopefullyyou'll be there for a while and
it seems to be a really goodvenue for you.
And so, how are you?
What's your vision for keepingthis a sustainable thing, as

(55:59):
taxing as it is on the actors,as taxing as it is on your um,
you know, spreadsheet, Um, what?
What do you envision for thefuture?
What's your ideal Like if youcould speak into the audience?
Your, your wish for Exodusgoing forward?
What does that look like?
What does that look like?

Speaker 2 (56:20):
Well, my wish for Exodus is that we can always be
based in Santa Fe it's veryimportant to us, Our community
is important but that we canincreasingly share our work in
other cities.
So we want to be able to takethe work to New York, which we

(56:40):
are planning on doing soon, andthen we want to be able to take
the work to other cities andcountries internationally and to
have a voice and to be a leaderin the future of theater, not
only like from Santa Fe, butacross the country.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
And then you know, and so that obviously is going
to mean not a single, the smallensemble that you have now, but
it would it sounds like youwould need in order to keep it
active, or would it just be onetroupe that travels to various
different places and then makestheir way back to santa fe?
I mean, I imagine there are alot of different ways this to
play out, but to have an exodustroupe in san francisco, in

(57:22):
boston, in chicago, in new york,or is it more like this
particular group goes everywhere, which is exhausting?

Speaker 2 (57:29):
just sounding yeah.
Well, to me it is the thisgroup, because I think I don't.
I think something that'sspecial about exodus is that
it's not really franchisable.
Not that other people can't beinspired by like what we're
making, but it's like anexquisite, obsessive attention

(57:52):
to the work of art and who'smaking it and how and how it's
made.
Yeah, and there's only one ofme, there's only one of each of
these actors.
I think what needs to happen islike we have grown, we've
gotten so that the actors canhave coverage when it's like if
so-and-so books, a TV show, wehave another actor who's

(58:15):
understudying.

Speaker 1 (58:16):
Right, that's new, actually we didn't have.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
We used to have it where if someone got sick, we
had to cancel the show oh wowFor like years because we just
didn't have enough like coverage, and so that's been growth into
the sustainable.
And then, as we move forward,it's like well, we do need to
grow a bit, we need more talent.
We also need more support.
Ideally it's like we keep.

(58:39):
We keep what's essential aboutwho we are while we grow the
infrastructure so that we can bein New York and do the London
trip and and always come backhere.
And I think what's so cool aboutSanta Fe is like we grow these
pieces here and we have theseaudiences now that have been

(59:00):
with us, and we have theseaudiences now that have been
with us.
Like what's neat is like a lotof people have seen all seven
shows and a lot of people haveseen them in their very early
stages and then years later andthey've seen like six different
casts do these shows, and so wehave this like family here that
like understands how we work,and so we always want this to be

(59:21):
like where our home is, andthen go do a four week tour in
New York, right, right, andthree weeks in London.

Speaker 1 (59:28):
Well, that is my wish for you too, then.
Thanks, yeah, and um, I'mreally excited that I'll get to
spend some more time with you,because we're about to do this
project at CCA, thiscollaboration lab, and you're
going to be on the panel forthat, and I think your episode
is going to air right in themiddle of that, probably right
before we do your panel.

(59:48):
So this, this will be a niceintegration piece, and so people
can find you at Exodus Exodusensemblecom or on Instagram at
the Exodus Ensemble.
Okay, great.
Well, we'll leave it there.
Thank you so much, april.
Thank you, take care, okay.
Well, thanks for joining ustoday.

(01:00:10):
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