ArtStorming the City Different: Hiro Cash

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Follow the artistic journey of a young Navajo painter, Hiro Cash, who draws inspiration from a variety of influences, including music, fashion, and his cultural heritage.Learn how he came upon his unique style, overcoming self-doubt, and experimenting with different mediums from screen printing to sculpture. 

Now available on your favorite podcast station or ArtStorming.org

Music for ArtStorming the City Different was written and performed by John Cruikshank.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Ever wonder what makes really creative people
tick?
Where do their ideas come from?
What keeps them energized?
What kinds of things get intheir way?
Is their life really as muchfun as it looks from the outside
?
Hello, I'm your host, liliPierpont, and this is
ArtStorming, a podcast about hownew ideas come to life and
become paintings, sculptures,plays or poems, performances or

(00:25):
collections.
Each episode I'll chat with aguest from the arts community
and explore how the mostcreative among us stare down a
blank canvas or reach into thevoid and create something new.
For today's episode, I'm goingto take you a little deeper into
the land of enchantment, toGallup, new Mexico, the gateway

(00:48):
to the Navajo Nation.
To get there, I drove southwestacross breathtaking landscapes
which, when depicted inpaintings, seem like they must
be fantasy.
But here they were whizzing byme.
I passed magnificent redsandstone cliffs, home to
Anasazi, archaeological sitesdating to 300 AD.
A slow-moving freight train withbrightly colored cars parallels

(01:11):
the legendary Route 66.
Back in the day, it would havebeen more than a full day's
journey to get to these Navajolands from Santa Fe.
Today it took about three hourseach way.
Well worth the trek to meet ayoung artist with a bright
future.
All right, so here we arefinally.

(01:33):
This has been a long timecoming, right.
Yes, it has, I've been tradingcommunications back and forth
since I first met your father in.
Santa Fe, since I first metyour father in Santa Fe.
So the backstory here.
I was at Indian Market anddoing the contemporary sort of
leg, you know, with all of thethings.

(01:54):
And I guess you'd gone off tolunch or something.
But I got to the you were onthe very end on the left and I
turned around and stopped deadin my tracks.
Your work stopped me dead in mytracks.
Your work stopped me dead in mytracks.
Then I started talking to yourdad, who you were sharing a
booth with him, and your dad isa very well-known jeweler.
We got to chatting and it wasthen that I knew that I just

(02:17):
absolutely had to meet you, andwhat I was reflecting on on the
way here is so I drove to Gallupto be here yes, and to see your
studio and, um, I realized thatyou're one of the first people
that I've spoken to on mypodcast series, where I met your
work before I met you.
Here's the great story that Iwanted to tell you I was invited

(02:40):
to a friend of mine's house fordinner and I walked into his
house.
It's the first time I've beenat his house it was.
Perry's house and I walked inand I went oh my god that's.
Hiro and he's like wait, wait.
How do you know Hiro?

Speaker 2 (02:53):
and so I told him the whole story.
So that's the small world thatgoes there so he told you yeah,
I let's see.
I first met him at Santa FeIndian Market and he loved that
painting that's in his home andhe just he stopped in his tracks
.
He came in.

(03:13):
Another person was there aswell and you know they were
interested in the same paintingand he's a person that's like he
doesn't regret and not buyingstuff.
So that's what he told me.
But something about thatparticular painting attracted
him and he was there and hestayed there for a while and

(03:34):
then he was wondering if he hadroom in his home and then he
went home to go measure and hesaid I'll take the painting.
He's such a nice person.
We dropped the painting offwith him later that night.
The painting, he's such a niceperson.
We dropped the painting offwith him later that night and he
has such a beautiful home andit was.
I was really glad that thatpainting went and it's in good
company yeah, he's got a lot ofimportant pieces, yeah, so you

(03:58):
are I met him just recently atthe herd museum and he mentioned
you and said that you're greatfriends and that you came over
for dinner one night and thatyou saw my painting there and
you were just like this isHiro's painting.
And I was really happy withthat, that you got to see one of

(04:18):
my paintings in person beforeeven coming here to the studio
and, yeah, it was a coolexperience.

Speaker 1 (04:27):
Well, it's worth noting, I think, that you're a
young, emerging artist, and foryour work to be so recognizable
that I could spot it from acrossthe room, after having just
seen a small collection of yourwork at Indian Market, speaks to
know to your recognizable stylewhich for a young artist is

(04:49):
really impressive yeah, it is,thank you.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
And you know, I'm not sure how to still feel about
you know, if you know me beingwith me, being so young, it's
still surreal to me like my workcan do that and that I've
created such a distinct style,based off of the influences of
my favorite artists, that I sojust say more about who is your

(05:14):
favorite artist.
I'm gonna say you know when,when I first started painting, I
didn't really know a lot of anycontemporary artists and there
was only one that I knew of andhis name is Wes Ling, and he is
a contemporary painter as well,who does like the Basquiat type

(05:38):
of paintings, and so I fell inlove with his work first, and
then, when I first startedpainting, it was you know I was
I didn't know who Boskout was,which is a surprise, and and
that was just or I first startedpainting and it was more of
like not stick figures, but itwas like characters, something

(06:00):
like these uh-huh, those areearlier drawings and they were.
I started doing those first, andthen that's when my dad was um,
he said, your work reminds meof Basquiat, and so I looked him
up and that opened like a wholeworld for me and influence for
me, and that was just like whoa.

(06:22):
Like you know, he was the firstartist to do this style in a
way of being recognized andcreating just something, and to
me I've always wanted to justcreate these types of creatures
and figures because to methey're alive in the paintings

(06:43):
and that they're living theirown life wherever they may be in
these paintings, and once I'mdone painting with it, that's
they go off on their own with so, like you, give birth to these
little creatures yeah so so.

Speaker 1 (06:59):
So how do they come to you um?
Do you have conversations withthem or?

Speaker 2 (07:04):
yeah, usually it's.
One of my main influences ismusic and that's just another
huge influence on me with thepaintings.
It ranges from the music,ranges from like classical jazz,
and then it goes into the punkrock music and metal and classic

(07:26):
rock and that's where I'mreally getting that like energy.
So when I'm here painting I puton my music through speaker and
whatever that energy is givingfrom the music, it just goes
through me and then it goesthrough the canvas.
But I always try not to beperfect.
I, you, I try to draw like achild because we in a way we all

(07:50):
have a child's mind and want tostill be a child in some days
and so in a way I can be justmyself and have the child mind
and free forms of just workingand everything.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
Well, you know, I think it's attributed to Picasso
, who says it's keeping thatbeginner's mind that's the
hardest thing to do as an artist.
Yeah, that's totallyparaphrased.
So how is it working for you tobe at IAIA?
You're at school there, right?
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (08:18):
I am in my third year , so I'll be finishing up.
Next year I'll be in my senioryear and with that I met so many
great artists and students andthey're just very cool.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
Do you feel like you're able to stay your kid
self?

Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
I think IAIA has a really interesting and different
kind of art program.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
Yeah, they do.
Yeah, because with the classesI've taken in the past semesters
, they've always been verysupportive of their students'
works and very supportive of mywork as well.
Lot, because I know there'ssome art schools that are very

(09:08):
like you do your own style, butthey want you to focus with
whatever is assigned with um,like whatever their assignment
is, but with IA they, um, theylet you be yourself and so like
give me an example of a kind ofassignment that you might get?
Yeah, so last semester I had areally cool teacher.

(09:28):
His name is Daniel McCoy Jr andhe's a painter and he was our
instructor for a 2D fundamentaldrawing class and a lot of the
assignments he gave were just todo black and gray shading and
then to do a little bit ofpainting.

(09:50):
But he would always encourage usto paint whatever we wanted to
do.
You don't have to followimagery or follow a construct, a
structure, a construct, astructure.
So with that, you know thatreally helped me to paint what I

(10:11):
wanted to paint without beingmaybe judged or being like maybe
you should change this orchange that to this, and so that
really helped me with uh, tokeep going, and he was really
really supportive with my workand he's he keeps, keeps.
He tells me to go big with myart, you know, because most of
the assignments were like maybe16 by 20 inches of canvas or

(10:32):
paper, but once he's seen mywork he's like you have to go
bigger with it.
He said you can do small, butthe main thing is to go big with
it yeah, and so what's it liketo have other students in the
class with you?

Speaker 1 (10:46):
Do you find yourself influenced by their style, or
are you so clear on your voice?
I mean, it seems to me likeyour voice is really clear.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, I mean, I'm inspired by everything in life.
That's where a lot of theseinfluences with the imagery in
my work comes from is justthings in life that has happened
and also things that'shappening.
And when I saw other students'work, I was like, wow,
everyone's talented in their ownway and it's like some of it's

(11:15):
really fine art and then most ofthe work were fine arts instead
of scribbles and stuff.
But that really inspired me aswell.
And yeah, I'm not sure it'sweird, it's.
You know, when you're withother students working in the

(11:36):
same space, it's like there's alot of energy going on there and
everyone's creative energy islike mixing together and
sometimes it can throw offanother person.
Sometimes it throws off me whenI'm working, because it's like
most, you know, most of the timeI work alone and I do that, but
when it's with other people, Ithink there's just a whole

(11:59):
nother dimension that's beingcreated and well, that's.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
That's a really unique experience that you're
getting to be literally creatingamong other creatives who are
tapping into that field too,because so so many of the
artists that I've been talkingto who are probably, um, either
mid-career artists or orwherever they are in their
trajectory they're definitelypast school age and they're

(12:24):
relegated to their studio orwherever they choose to do
trajectory they're definitelypast school age and they're
relegated to their studio orwherever they choose to do their
work.
So that interaction of bumpingoff of other people's energy who
are also engaged in it is likeit's a.
It's a pretty unique experienceto art school.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
I would think yeah, it is.
And unless you're on a residencyprogram or something like that,
yeah, and yeah, art school Ididn't really I knew I wanted to
go to art school, just becauseI was really encouraged to.
But at the same time I just wantto do myself and do me with my
art.
But art school has helped a lot, especially with discovering

(12:57):
and learning history on theRenaissance art.
And you know, that's what I'mlearning right now is taking a
course on european art, and youknow, with that it's very, it's
so, it's so different fromwhat's today, because that, you
know, it was like a new style inthe 1500s and way back then and

(13:20):
then it started evolvingthrough these different artists
and it all came throughgenerations and so when I
learned last semester, I learnedabout like the art between
1930s to maybe 90s around there,and that's when I um, finally

(13:46):
figured out that the art wasmore.
I guess the style I do isneo-expressionism, it fits more
into that category, but thenagain, I don't really want to
fit into a category, but in theart world it has to sure, well,
I mean yeah.
I suppose it does but what?

Speaker 1 (14:03):
what you're, what?
What I'm thinking of as you'respeaking is that certainly in
the Renaissance, one of thethings that was very present was
an apprenticeship program whereyou were learning from teachers
and there were very specificconventions that were taught and
passed down, and passed down,and passed down.
And because contemporary artdoesn't follow that lineage,
you're not in the studiostudying with a master before

(14:25):
you get to try your own hand atit.
So you had these lineages ofartists.
So, as Native painters, youguys have this direct line to
your ancestors that's coming,and so there's this kind of
really interesting parallelbetween the Renaissance artists
and you.
So do you feel like you've gotthe ancestors coming through?

Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah, definitely, because you know, through my
life as a kid my dad's beencollecting Native American art
and a lot of it has culturalinfluences in them and you know

(15:08):
it's definitely a NativeAmerican style and so I grew up
around that and you know, but atthe time I did not know that we
were getting these pieces, whowere maybe like thousands of
dollars and but these artistswere famous and they were known
for their imagery and so in away it does flow through me and

(15:34):
I do feel the energy that itdoes.
And you know I come from.
You know I come from a line ofI don't come from a line of
artists because my dad's thefirst artist, I guess, in our
family, but through, you know,through that he learned the hard

(15:55):
way of becoming a self-employedartist, going and making that
his main job.
Well, you grew up seeing him dothat right, yeah, Right, and
it's just I don't know.
It's definitely a weirdexperience still with that.

(16:16):
Yeah, I'm not sure how toexplain it.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
He's in a different medium, so you've distinguished
yourself, you know from that.
So you're, you know in a wayyou're following in his footstep
as an artist, but completelydifferent medium and certainly
do you feel like there.
Do you recognize an influenceof your father's style in

(16:40):
jewelry to your painting?
I'm noticing this ring thatkeeps flashing behind me.
It's hard not to notice.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
Is that one of his pieces, or is that your piece?
This one is Cody Sanderson.
Oh, cody Sanderson yeah, my dadgot this for my birthday last
year Very cool.
You know he's friends with him,but everyone has their own
style, especially my dad's.
He definitely does traditionaljewelry work, navajo jewelry

(17:12):
work but also he ties in with alittle bit of contemporary work.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
Like the spider, that's very, you know, different
from a traditional bolonecklace and, yeah, we were
looking upstairs right before westarted talking this amazing
collection that you've beenliving with, this art I mean, it
can't not influence you and oneof the pieces is the piece that
your dad made for the herdmuseum and that's with the

(17:37):
spider on it yeah, and you know,at his gallery or not, his
gallery, uh, his studio, he hasa lot of books on different uh
silversmith artists and you knowI used to look through the
books of those and I

Speaker 2 (17:54):
can see the influence that my dad has as well through
those and it's like wow.
But also you know the way hiscreativity is.
It's so much different from thepainting, I don't know.
It's like I can't tap into thattype of influence or creativity

(18:15):
with jewelry I tried.
At one point, maybe when I waslike eight.
I was very inspired with whathe was doing and I was like I
want to make something like that.
I just did a sketch, but then Inever got to do the jewelry
work.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Well, I noticed when we walked in there was a wire
sculpture that you've done sohave you worked with sculpture
at all?

Speaker 2 (18:41):
No, that was my first sculpture that I've worked with
and you know, when I firststarted that class, I was kind
of lost at first because, youknow, I just draw and paint and
that's what I'm very inspired by.
But now I've been inspired withsculptures and different, all

(19:02):
types of different sculpturesthat influenced me, and that one
was based off a drawing that Idid and I knew I wanted to
create like a, like a head butin my style as if it was in a
painting, and it came out theway I wanted it to.
and now with the.

(19:24):
So now I want to get more intothe sculpture because it seems
it seems fun.
You know, that's what theeffect of IAEA has done on me
was taking these differentcourses of different mediums is
to try to expand your, try toexpand my medium more out.
And with sculpture that reallycaptured another part of me and

(19:51):
I still want to work on it.
I still want to do more withthe water sculpturing and kind
of just go out of the boundarieswith it, not maybe put clay or
something around it or duct tape, the duct tape.
I was really inspired with anartist.
His name is Banks Violet andhe's I'm not sure he's like a

(20:14):
minimalist artist, but his workis like so unique and it's like
awesome because it's inspiredfrom music influences as well,
mainly metal and punk music.

Speaker 1 (20:29):
Well, I was going to ask you about that because you
were talking about going fromthree dimensions with the
sculpture, from two dimensionsof the painting.
But how many dimensions are inmusic?
Yeah, I mean.
So to me it seems like you knowthere's lots of room yeah right
, lots of space to explore.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
there's definitely.
There's definitely is.
You know, with music it's likeyou can add so many layers to it
and you know it doesn't have tojust be a drum or bass or
guitar.
There's so many thousands ofmusical instruments we have now
today and those influence me,singing with my music and the
way I play, and it's the way Ilook at my art too.

(21:12):
Being experimental is what Ireally try to aim for, and same
with the paintings I try to beexperimental.
One painting I put, like a Ihad raw canvas sitting around
and I screen printed a graphicover it and I collaged the raw
canvas onto the painting and itwas very different.

(21:37):
It still is different.
I'm not sure.
I'm pretty sure some peoplehave done that, but it was
different for me to try that anda lot of people were like
surprised with it becausethey've never seen a painting
with a raw canvas collaged ontoanother canvas.
And collaging I've been reallyinto now, especially with

(21:57):
painting, I try to collageoriginal drawings into my
paintings as well.
And I guess another topic to geton is my first.
I guess my first introductioninto art was fashion.
That was was yeah, it'ssurprising for a lot of people
because, um, because they, youknow, I do painting now, but

(22:23):
fashion was the first.
I guess art medium or art thatI wanted to do, that was
influences from my olderbrothers.
They were, you know, the olderbrothers always have the biggest
, like coolest things in lifeand they know who's coming up
and the coolest bands and stuff,and so with my brothers it was

(22:46):
through that and with theirmusic that they were listening
to.
I was like this is cool and Isaw that, or I looked up the
artist and then I found outthat's a lot of them, or some of
them have like clothing brandsand for one was a clothing brand

(23:09):
called golf wing by a rappernamed Tyler the Creator, and so
in like mid school, like likeseventh grade, was where I
really wanted to do clothing andscreen printing, so I was
inspired with that and then Ikind of just went off on my own
through mid-school until highschool was when I wanted to do

(23:31):
screen printing, but at the timeI didn't know how to do screen
printing or didn the time.
I didn't know how to like doscreen printing or didn't know
the dynamics of it, so I wouldjust draw.
And then I would just buy blankhoodies or t-shirts and draw my
logo or art on them and I wouldsell them to my friends and

(23:51):
they would buy them and some ofthem still have it to this day
and I mean, yeah, I guess thatwas like my first art was um
drawing on t-shirts and hoodies.
After high school.
That's when I firstexperimented with trying to
screen print uh, just me, youknow, doing it myself, and it

(24:14):
was a.
It was a lot of trial and errorthrough that because the first
time I tried it I didn't reallyum the emulsion or like the
burning through the burning ofthe design onto the screen and
washing it out, and you knowit's such a complex thing.
But once you get the hang of ityou're just, you can do it like

(24:35):
that, like painting for me, andso I did that.
I sold those and I'm coming upwith new designs now to still go
on with selling hoodies andclothing.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
But that was like my first intro to introduce, uh
intro to art was screen printingand digital art so you think
you'd take some of these, youknow, because now they've got
these all kinds of capacities totake artwork and just reproduce
it into clothing yeah, that'swhat I want to do with some of
the artwork and the imagery.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
You know, I've done some of it with hoodies and
based off of my drawings andit's, yeah, a lot of people love
it.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
It's cool yeah, for sure.
Well, I, what do you?
What have you got?
Oh, she found a leg of a chairI'm noticing a ton of books.
So the you said you lovedhaving books around you.
Is that something that that youdiscovered was inspiration for
you?
After you developed your ownstyle, you got curious about

(25:37):
other people's styles, or howdid the books start to come into
the scheme of things?

Speaker 2 (25:42):
I've always loved books.
I mainly just looked at theimages through books, because as
a kid I never really read andthe only time I would read was
just like if it was a signthrough school.
But my dad is the one whoalways said that reading will

(26:03):
take you places.
You know, reading will make yousuccessful.
That's stuck with me since highschool, when I first started
painting.
I didn't have any books tostart with, but we a bookshelf
upstairs and it's just a wholeline of books different, all
kinds of books With influences.

(26:24):
You know, a lot of it is artbooks that I have, and it's way
better than looking on yourphone, even though Google has
everything.
But I feel like having thephysical copy is so much.
It's better and it makes youfeel better as well, especially
as an artist, to have such coolbooks as well, and I've always

(26:45):
wanted to collect books.
I've always liked the look ofbooks laying around as well
Makes your studio look morealive.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
We were talking earlier about the medieval guild
system and the way they used toteach the artists.
Have you ever attempted topaint in the style of somebody
else?

Speaker 2 (27:04):
The first time, when I first started painting, I was
inspired with a.
He owns a clothing brand and heposted a painting one time that
he did and it was like it wasjust a collage of images
together and one thing thatstuck out to me was a kind of

(27:24):
like an abstract skull, and sothat I wanted to do something in
that sense and I was like maybemy junior year of high school I
tried and I didn't do wellbecause I kind of I kind of
doubted myself with it and Ikind of I just gave up on it and
after that I was like I wasstill trying to find myself in a

(27:47):
sense of what I want to do aswell.
But then I wasn't worrying aboutit too much and I was like I
want to try painting again and Ikind of just drew this figure
of like a neck and a face andlike he had spiked hair and it
was just like he was one of myfirst characters and figures

(28:09):
that I introduced into my artand with that I really loved the
way he came out and loved theway he looked.
And I was inspired with likecheckered type of colors and so
I did like a red and blue colorin the background and then put

(28:30):
layered this person over with itand I put like a cigarette in
his mouth, because I don't knowsomething about the aesthetic of
smoking, especially inpaintings.
It always it's like it comes outat you and I like how they look
in paintings as well, eventhough it's not good for you,
but in the paintings they'regood for them.
But that was like the firststyle that I tried doing but

(28:54):
didn't succeed at first.
But later on in the years Icame back to it and found out
that it was for me, even thoughI may have failed in the first
time well, so say a little bitmore about that self-doubt,
because I think anybody who'sbeen, who's danced with the
creative, has had thatexperience.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
So how did you know that it was doubt and how did
you know that you would overcomeit?

Speaker 2 (29:22):
I think the first time you know that first time
that I sat with doubt was Icouldn't do it and I was like I
can't paint like that.
I think it was.

Speaker 1 (29:34):
When you say you couldn't do it, you mean the
rendering that you had createddidn't match your idea of what
it was supposed to be in yourhead.
Yeah, yeah, I think.
That's really.
I think, so many artistsespecially people who are trying
to render.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah, definitely, and I think that's what taught me
to just be free with it all.
You don't have to be sodistinct.
Depends on what style, but youdon't have to be so distinct
with the art you want to create.
You know it's has to be freeform and you have to kind of

(30:07):
just let your mind and let yourbody go and like, in a way, you
have to turn off the back ofyour head or something, to turn
off your mind and to just, uh,go with it.
Go with the flow, actually, andtrust the process.
And that time I think I wastrying too hard to render

(30:29):
someone else's style and notfinding my own, and that's what
I think put the doubtness in meand I was like, okay, I'm not it
was sort of like a kind ofcomparison.

Speaker 1 (30:41):
Is that what you're?
I'm just teasing this outbecause I think that anybody who
sits down and tries to dosomething for the first time
usually has an idea in theirhead of what they're trying to
do, and it's usually based onsomething that somebody else has
done, because we don'tnecessarily I mean, it's a rare
bird, I think that knows whatthey're trying to do, and it's
usually based on something thatsomebody else has done, because
we don't necessarily, I mean,it's a rare bird, I think that
knows what they want to createinside their own head and then,
like, just goes for it.

(31:02):
I mean I do know a few peoplehave had that lucky opportunity,
definitely, and that was um itwas a pretty.

Speaker 2 (31:14):
It was just an experience that I had to go
through because through that Ihad to find myself and I
eventually did with what I'mdoing well.

Speaker 1 (31:24):
What's remarkable about that?
And and I hope this doesn'tsound patronizing, but to find
yourself at the ripe young ageof whatever you are and I don't
know how old you are, but I Imean, you know it's a great gift
.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
And did you find it in music as readily?
Yeah, you know, music I grew uplistening to, from punk to
classic rock, to country, oldcountry, and you know, with my
dad he's you know his music wasthat.
And it wasn't until high schoolwas when I really started
falling in love with um, thepunk music, and my first

(32:04):
introduction was like theramones and that had such a
influence on me because it, youknow, their music made me feel
somehow and I wanted to kind ofrebel and you know that's what
the point of the punk music wasis to rebel against and that's
what it made me feel.
And so through that I starteddiscovering more artists and

(32:28):
more bands, older bands, and youknow the bands I still listen
to today and I think they'll bewith me forever.
And that has such a hugeinfluence with how I work and
how I found myself as a person.
You know I'm 21 years old andthat you know.
A lot of people are verysurprised with me knowing these

(32:52):
bands that no one else knows.

Speaker 1 (32:54):
Well, I mean, I had to kind of do some math when you
were saying that, because ofcourse the ramones are yeah it's
like I was probably your age orolder when they were around and
so you know it's like sure, theramones.
And then I have to do realizethat that was 40, 50, 40 years
ago, right.
So, yeah, that's, that's prettywild.
But in terms of the music, Ithink, especially in our era,

(33:18):
people have way more access tomusic growing up than they do
fine art or painting.
Do you play other people'smusic or do you write your own
music or I play other people'smusic.

Speaker 2 (33:31):
That's uh, let's see.
You know, I'm inspired with uhjohn frusciante from the red hot
chili peppers.
They're one of my favoritebands and with his playing style
.
You know it varies from jimmyhendrix and all these other
artists that play in, like theseblue scales and john frusciante

(33:51):
and jimmy hendrix, have a biginfluence on me with my guitar
playing.
Just because it gives me, Iguess it's, I can be complex
with it and I can teach myselfthese chords and it's like I'm
not sure what it's like Now.

(34:12):
it's kind of easy for me to playbecause I've been playing for
maybe four years and I can playthem like easier than when I
first started playing.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
I keep coming back to this sort of correlation
between painting and playingmusic and you know, in painting
you sort of carved your own pathand your own style, so it's
definitely your music so tospeak.
But with music you'recomfortable kind of riffing off
of somebody else's style.

(34:47):
And it's interesting thatsomething about music lends
itself to people taking somebodyelse's music and playing with
it, yeah, um, and I?
you know, I don't see that we dothat in art and in painting.
I think the expectation is thatyou find your own unique style,
but there's something aboutmusic that's interesting and

(35:08):
that you can play the same songover and over again and have a
completely new experience of iteach time yeah, you know, I
think it depends on where youare at and like like where you
play.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
You know I love playing here, just because it's
my safe place or sanctuary andit's my own private area and I
try to write my own music.
I do want to start a band andmy friends me and him want to
just play music.
It's okay if we don't get big oranything, but it's a passion of

(35:45):
ours to just play, becausemusic holds such a unique energy
and how it can attach on tosomeone's soul and stay with
them forever.
You know, I guess that's whatart does.
It's it just.
It attaches onto yourself andyou can't let it, even though

(36:08):
you may push it away it can't?

Speaker 1 (36:10):
it keeps coming back yeah, you, yeah.
So between music and painting,do you just sort of bounce back
and forth, or do you have aparticular ritual that you use,
where you spend a certain amountof time with your music and a
certain amount of time withpainting?

Speaker 2 (36:27):
Yeah, usually when I come down into the studio I
start on a painting or startfinishing a painting and I have
my music playing and then ifthere's like a specific song
that comes on or a certain song,it'll, I'm like I want to try
to learn it by ear, listen to itand then figure out the chords

(36:49):
through it.
So I'll take a break from ifI'm having like not creative
block but like any step awayfrom this for a while.
Then I'll come over here andtry to learn whatever song was
playing and that helps mebecause it's like it gives me
it's like a therapy.
You know you're with yourselfand you're with your own
thoughts and you can just beyourself and try to learn it,

(37:14):
with the mistakes and everything, and not have anyone hear your
progress.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
So have you ever had the experience where you're
playing and you've shifted mindstates and suddenly it informs
what needs to happen next on apainting?

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Yeah, it definitely does.
I'll sit here and then I'll beplaying, and then I'll be
playing, and then I'll beplaying like a really fast and
heavy punk riff and then I go, Ilet go, and I go back to the
painting and add in whatever Iwant to add in through the
energy that I'm getting throughthe guitar and music, and it

(37:50):
just goes on to a canvas so itjust sort of goes back and forth
.

Speaker 1 (37:55):
Yeah, it goes back and forth.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
But sometimes I'll just stay at the canvas and just
sit there and paint, and I'mnot sure when a painting's
finished as well.
It's like it's so weird becausemost of the paintings it's like
I guess it speaks to me andit's not telling me when it's

(38:18):
done.
But I have to know when it isand I think when it's done I
have to step away and kind ofgather my thoughts and feelings
and look at it and then okay,it's done.

Speaker 1 (38:33):
Well, it's interesting Once again, music
has a beginning, a middle and anend yeah, and there's a kind of
a form that a piece of musicwill take yeah, and it
definitely has a conclusion.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
So I think it's easier to know when a song is
done yeah, but it's harder toknow when a painting is done
yeah, there's an interview withthe drummer from Metallica and
he he owned one of Basquiat'spaintings and I think they asked
him like when do you know asong is done?

(39:04):
And he like referred toBasquiat's painting behind him
and he said there was like Iforget what the painting was,
but in the top left corner it'sjust like a black spot and with
little markings from the end ofthe brush.
And he was like what did he say?

(39:24):
He was like why isn't there morestuff right there, or why is it
just left, like that.
And he was like you know, I'mnot sure when the music, when
the song is done or if it's done.
It was like, you know, I'm notsure when that song is done or
if it's done, it's like when isthe painting done.
And that always sticks with meas well and it's like, yeah,
when is the painting done?

(39:45):
But yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
So when you look at, say, the piece, we're looking at
a very striking piece that is askeleton with a headdress sort
of I guess that's how youdescribe it.
Do you hear pieces of musicthat you were listening to as
you were working on that?

Speaker 2 (40:05):
Yeah, when I look at this painting, I was listening
to a lot of jazz music.
So when I look at it, that'swhat bounces off at me is I can
hear the trumpets and the drumsand the piano playing and it's
like jazz, music is such acomplex type of music and you

(40:30):
know it can pick up pace realquick and I was doing that.
You know it can pick up pacereal quick and I was doing that.
Once it started picking up thepace, that's when I was like
just going back and forth to thepalette, to the paint palette,
and then going back to thecanvas and just laying down
layers, and then I took a stepback and then saw that the
bottom part was the one thingthat I was only missing and I

(40:53):
just went with it.
And then I went with littleparts of different colors of
paint and that's when I finishedthe last stroke and I came back
and it was.
It looked done to me well, thatthat's really.

Speaker 1 (41:09):
That's really cool.
So there's a, there's a.
There's a phenomenon calledsynesthesia.
Have you heard of of that?
That's when people hear colors.
It's where the musical part ofthe brain and the visual part of
the brain kind of like crossover.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
Yeah, that's one thing I never really experienced
with was hearing colors Onlysometimes, you know, depends on
what the music is playingthrough my playlist.
It you know with the red.
I really love working with redbecause it's such a bold and
striking color that sticks outso much, but also it can tell so

(41:43):
much with what else goes on tothe painting.
Like this painting, for example, is I was really listening to,
like the Misfits and the Germans, and so when I look at the red,
I can see, I can hear the, thepunk influence and punk music
that came through as well andit's like I know it's like a

(42:09):
room.
I was very inspired withFrancis Bacon's work and that's
another one of my favoriteartists.
His work is, even though it'sdark, but it's.
It tells so much in a sense, ofwhat's going on and I created
this weird I really love thislike mouth type of figure and
that was influenced with with ananatomy book that I have and

(42:32):
I've always been fascinated withanatomy.
That's one thing.
If I wasn't an artist.
I would have gone into themedical field of being a surgeon
or something, just because mydad wanted us to be a doctor or
something.
My dad was very wanted us to bea doctor or something, and but
with that I've always beenfascinated with, like, the human

(42:53):
body and the anatomy of it,like the ribs and the skeletons,
and it's just I don't know.
It's like that's our structure,is that's what makes us up as
humans, is this whole, uh,different organs and so many
weird names for them, and that'swhere I get these, like

(43:16):
skeleton faces or like otherstuff.
And yeah, that comes fromanother type of energy.
That's really weird.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
Well, I think it's, I think it's fascinating because,
again, you know like those areprimal archetypal forms, right?

Speaker 2 (43:34):
yeah, they are you're kind of playing with them yeah,
and that was another thing thatfrom you know the renaissance
era of art was, they were makingthese anatomies of the body I
can't remember where it was inthe scheme of things, because
for a long time the church todesecrate a body, to look at the
anatomy, was a big no-no.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
But I think that there were artists and I think
Leonardo was one of them, whoyou know.
There were these groups ofartists working covertly to
dissect bodies and understandanatomy.

Speaker 2 (44:05):
So that's the beginning of that and alchemical
process and all kinds ofmysteries yeah, and with that,
with the understanding theanatomy of the body you know,
when I put skulls into my work,or like the anatomy of the
skeleton, it's not coming off asaid or it's not coming off as a

(44:28):
negative type of imagery.
I paint it with beauty.
I paint it with positive energyand I paint it knowing that it's
a part of us and that's whatholds up our structure.
We have to take care of it andit'll take care of us, and so
that's the way I see theskeletons and stuff.

(44:50):
You know it's.
It's there when we're born andthen when it's the end of our
life cycle it's going to bethere.
And that's where and I thinkthat's where a lot of people see
it as dark, just because youknow, at the end of the life
cycle it's's just your skeleton,but to me it's part of our life

(45:10):
.
Still it's us.
So when I do paint skeletons,it's always with a positive
beauty painted with that.

Speaker 1 (45:22):
So how do you think that?
Because one of the things thatIAIA is organized around is the
notion of the indigenous NativeAmerican contribution, and my
understanding is that there isan emphasis on stories and
storytelling and knowing whatthe stories are.

(45:45):
So do you feel like you've beengiven greater access to your
lineage?
I mean, we're talking aboutcontinuity, like what came
before you and what comes afteryou, and the skeletons being
kind of a good symbol for thatin a way.
It's not necessarily alwaysused in that context, but how do
you feel like that connects you?
How do you feel connected tothe artists that have come

(46:06):
before you in the tradition ofIndigenous art, and what are you
leaving in your wake?
You still have a long way to goobviously I'm not sure you know
.
It may not even becontextualized like that for you
, but you know it's still again,you're sort of young looking

(46:26):
forward at so much, and maybethat's a question that's sort of
better suited to somebody who'shad a lot of life to look back
on.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
You know, with the art after school, I want to just
do more shows, I want to getmore out there, but also I just
want to keep creating and keepgoing with it because you know,
time's not promised as well andI want to make just so much that
I can and leave that muchimpact on my culture and my

(46:59):
people as well.
And I grew up mainlytraditional through my practice
of being an abo and with thatit's it's all, and say a little
bit for people who don't know.

Speaker 1 (47:11):
Say a little bit more about what that might mean for
you yeah, you know, I didn't.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
I didn't grow up religious or christianity, even
though I went to um a christianschool.
But my family, theirgenerations, always practice
traditional and cultural beliefsand we still practice it today,

(47:38):
even though a majority of ithas gone from is gone from the
effects of the US government andthe genocide of Native
Americans.
And so you know, when I look atreligious stuff, it's um.
I respect it still.
You know, if someone believesin it, that's totally fine.

(48:00):
But it's just not something forme, or I try not to think about
it too much, just because thisis my life, that I'm trying to
just create as much as I can.
And the school is very, they'revery supportive and they're
cultural and they let their.
They let a lot of their studentsyou know a lot of the students

(48:22):
are from different tribes allover the world and they let them
practice their own way and theydon't try to give them into one
thing and that's what theyteach in their history classes,
as well as the like sovereigntyand the history of Native

(48:44):
American people, and a lot ofkids or students there don't
know about it as well, justbecause a lot of the school
systems never really taught thatpart of history.
I mean the Christian schoolthat I went to.
They were, even though beforethey were a mission school for

(49:05):
Native American children.
They changed and theyincorporated with their history
classes, which is good becausethey're in a and were they
specifically teaching the Navajotraditions?

Speaker 1 (49:22):
Or because you went to school here, I'm presuming.

Speaker 2 (49:24):
Yeah, right here in Galway.
Yeah, they taught to all thestudents and not just
specifically Navajo people.

Speaker 1 (49:35):
So what cross-section of students would you have had
in your class growing up?
Just?

Speaker 2 (49:40):
out of curiosity, the majority was Navajos and maybe
yeah it was like half Navajo andhalf white people that were in
the school and you know, luckilythe students and everyone went
to Rehoboth, understood us aspeople and everything you know,

(50:02):
my all of, except all of mysiblings, except one, all went
to the same school and they,they were taught the same thing
and it does have an effect onthem, which is because the
school named Jehovah and theywere.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
They did start out as like a boarding school, for
they did start out as like aboarding school for Native
children, but I think later onthey put up, they reintegrated
the Native traditional.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
Well, I think it's really important, because I grew
up on the East Coast and as faras we were taught, or knew
almost, that the NativeAmericans no longer existed, and
so I mean that seems like agross overstatement, except it
really isn't.
You know, as far as we weretaught, the integration was

(50:59):
complete and, yes, there werereservations, but it was like
this other concept.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
Growing up I never really knew that it was.
Navajo because I never reallythought about it and I never
thought about the history oranything, just because I was
really young and I just was akid and I would just make
friends and be with them and domy own thing.
And then it was like mid-highschool and I was like really

(51:27):
understanding that high schoolsand I was like really
understanding that like there'sno, not a lot of representations
of Native Americans in media orTV or anything you know until
now.
You know that we have a lot ofNative American celebrities who
are like being recognized andit's cool seeing that, because

(51:49):
as a kid you rarely saw that itwas more seen Native Americans
seen as people who weren't hereanymore or like there's such a
small group of them.
And but once you realize andlook deeper, it's, it's totally
the opposite.

Speaker 1 (52:09):
you know, even we're very spread out.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
Now you know there's so many like I never realized
that there were so manydifferent tribes and until I got
to like I was like well,there's like so many tribes and
well, and I just want to saythis and I hope nobody jumps
down my throat about it, but,like, if you didn't know, how
are those?

Speaker 1 (52:30):
you know we all went through the same school system.
So how we, as white people, toknow either, and, yes, it's time
for that to get corrected.
And again, I think it's reallyimportant that there is focus
being made to kind of just getall the the stories, because
this, this story's out there,yeah, and and all the stories

(52:51):
because the story's out there,yeah, and all the richness of
the culture.
Yeah, definitely, and that youcan own being a part of a great
great tradition that has so muchto offer.

Speaker 2 (53:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:03):
So do you identify?
I mean and I feel like I'mputting a lot of words out here
but do you identify as nativeindigenous?
Do you identify as Navajo?
How do you?
I mean, because you're still ayoung person, kind of deciding
how you're going to presentyourself to the world.
Is it important to you that youjust are received as an artist

(53:23):
for your art, or is there anelement of wanting to own your
tradition, or how do you feel?
How do you feel about that?

Speaker 2 (53:31):
let's see how I feel.
You know I'm, I know I'mindigenous and I identify as
indigenous in navajo.
But as artists, you know, whenI first started painting and
doing art, I didn't want to bein the category of traditional
Native American art.

(53:51):
You know because you know when,when, when a Native artist does
do art, it's usually verytraditional and the imagery is
like cultural and you know it'sfrom generations of like those
types of art and like textilesand everything and those I would

(54:14):
see as Native American art justbecause it fits into how the
imagery and style comes out anddesigns.
But when I first wanted to be,I wanted to be more than just a
Native artist.
I wanted to be seen as acontemporary artist, more than

(54:35):
just a Native American artist.
And I've been doing that.
And when I first started,that's what I wanted to do was
to change the way of how NativeAmerican art looks.
You know, because there's a lotof Native American art shows,
such as I heard, that followwith traditional and traditional

(55:04):
cultural art and same style,same everything.
And you know.
I enter my work there and a lotof the awards that are given to
are like traditional, and so ina way I want to change that
perspective of the way peoplesee native art and that it's

(55:29):
more than just landscapes orhorses and stuff that it can be
these weird figures that areinfluenced from everything in
the world, and that it can bemore than.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
Well, after all, you are a Native and an Indigenous
person living in 2025.

Speaker 2 (55:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:48):
So I mean, we're not living in an isolated world.
We're living in a world thathas access to influences from
everywhere, so it's suitablethat you would be incorporating
things from where all of thewhole world that you live in and
my influence of mine is FritzScholder.

Speaker 2 (56:07):
Oh yeah, and that influence of mine is Fritz
Scholder, oh yeah.
And I have a couple books onhim and his work really changed
the perspective of how Native.
You know he put Native Americanpeople in the time that they
were living in.
And some of it can be, you know, the older generation can see

(56:30):
it as being taboo or can see itas offensive, but it's like real
, just because that's whatthey're living.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
It didn't occur to me that you know, from the
perspective of the traditionalnative art forms, that these
contemporary art forms, peopletaking liberties with it, might
be considered offensive.
It's never.
I mean.
I know that because, um, thethe um indian market has an
entire category.

(56:59):
Now that is just contemporary.
So for some reason I guess Iassume that there was a blessing
on on playing with sort of someof the original styles and
features, but I guess if you'rea traditionalist that might be
considered offensive.

Speaker 2 (57:15):
Yeah, you know.
Yeah, I think it depends.
Disrupt it.
It depends on the artists whodo practice in traditional
Native design work and you knowwhen new things, new things, you
know people don't like changesand we can see that all over,
and when one, when one thingsticks, it's there, but when

(57:40):
someone tries to change it forthem or for the art world or
world just in the sense itdisrupts how they feel.
Like Fritz Scholder, you know,he, he definitely him and TC
Cannon definitely changed theportraits of Native American
people in their art and puttingthem in traditional regalia and

(58:05):
clothing but in a sense of beingin a city and more contemporary
places.
And so with mine, you know, I'minspired with that, which just
being, you know, I love puttingin the Native American imagery,
mainly the Chiefs.
You know, I've always beenfascinated with the headdresses

(58:28):
and how they look, because theylook like warriors, they work,
they are warriors and in mypaintings that's what they are
and they're, you know, and a lotof the paintings they're seen
as heroes.
To me they're seen and and whatare.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
What is, what is their fight?
Who are they warriors for?

Speaker 2 (58:46):
I think they're warriors for themselves and for
wherever they are.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
You know, it's so many things that go on in these
paintings that so is it morelike a warrior for the, the self
to becoming this, like theinterior landscape and yeah,
yeah, it's.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
you know it's being.
You know, these are weirdplaces that they are in, and
some of them are in like roomsor like for that one is like, uh
, I got inspired with thechateau marmont and that's the
place that I really wanted tostay at and make art in that

(59:26):
place, and so with that, it'slike being in LA and they're
just living their life more?

Speaker 1 (59:37):
Do you see yourself staying here in New Mexico, in
the land of enchantment?

Speaker 2 (59:42):
I would like to move to Santa Fe.
There's such a unique art worldout there and I've done a few
shows in Santa Fe and a lot ofpeople are very supportive and
they love my work in Santa Feand especially LA with doing the
Autry.
A lot of people love that.
But I think two places, maybethree would be LA, new York and

(01:00:10):
Seattle those are like the topthree places.

Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
Have you visited either New York or Seattle?

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Yeah, I've been to New York last year and it's such
a cool, weird place.
I got to visit the MoMA Museumof Modern Art and seeing that
art there and the art scene inNew York is pretty much where

(01:00:36):
this neo-expressionism and thistype of style started from was
New York, but I would try to gofor LA just because, that's.
I'm very inspired with where Igo, and LA is an inspirational
place to me because it's such aweird place as well.

(01:00:58):
Some of my older pieces as wellwere inspired from LA.

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
Well, when I think of the music that you were talking
about earlier, I think of NewYork just sounds like punk rock.
So if you were to attribute akind of music to LA, what sound
does LA make for?

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
you or the Red.
Hot Chili Peppers.
Just because those two bandsdid start in LA.
You know their energy, the waythey perform and the way they
make music is like the way Imake art and the way I put color
on it.
It's so many layers and it's socomplex that it matches with

(01:01:43):
that music that starts from it.
And yeah, when I think of NewYork, it's more punk and like
jazz music.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
And jazz, yeah for sure jazz.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
That's been a daily playlist of mine, when I created
a few of these pieces with jazzmusic, John Coltrane, and put
it on shuffle and it just variesthrough it and then it just
goes on to the painting.

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
That's awesome.
Well, I can't wait to see whereyou go next with everything,
and I'm so glad we finally gotto do this.
Yeah, all right.
Well, thank you so much.
We'll end it there.
Well, thanks for joining ustoday.
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(01:02:31):
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