June 29, 2025 • 68 mins
What drives a person to repeatedly reinvent themselves with no safety net? Linda Durham's extraordinary life journey offers a masterclass in creative risk-taking and the rewards that come from embracing uncertainty.
Music for ArtStorming the City Different was written and performed by John Cruikshank.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Ever wonder what makes really creative people
tick?
Where do their ideas come from?
What keeps them energized?
What kinds of things get intheir way?
Is their life really as muchfun as it looks from the outside
?
Hello, I'm your host, liliPierpont, and this is
ArtStorming, a podcast about hownew ideas come to life and
become paintings, sculptures,plays or poems, performances or
(00:25):
collections.
Each episode, I'll chat with aguest from the arts community
and explore how the mostcreative among us stare down a
blank canvas or reach into thevoid and create something new.
Today, I'll be artstorming withLinda Durham.
Anyone who's traveled in thecontemporary art circles in
(00:47):
Santa Fe in the last 30 yearsknows the name.
She helped shape thecontemporary art scene here.
When I first met her in 2016-17, she had already closed her
gallery, but was still veryinfluential in the lives of many
artists.
By that time, she was well intodeveloping the Wonder Institute
, which you'll hear more aboutin our conversation.
(01:07):
I attended a few events hostedby Linda and then our
trajectories just seemed to takeus in different directions.
But as I was thinking aboutbringing this season to a close
with still so many people totalk to, I thought who can I add
to this season, who would roundit out and really give it some
context.
I thought who can I add to thisseason?
Who would round it out andreally give it some context?
I still had a long list ofpeople who absolutely belong in
(01:28):
this season, but I only had afew episodes left.
Minutes later I was scrollingthrough my social media and I
got my answer.
I can't remember if it was oneof her posts or a comment that
she made on one of my posts, butLinda's name sprang from the
screen and I had one of thoseduh moments.
I messaged her and, to mydelight, she accepted right away
(01:49):
and here is that conversation.
We are here and I am with LindaDurham.
I drove it's like driving backeast to get here.
It was just a long way away,but so such a beautiful drive
and so worth the wait.
And I was just about to saythat this podcast would not be
complete without you being partof it, because I think you have
(02:13):
raised or represented or ownartwork from almost every single
person I've spoken to.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
I think that's great and I look forward to knowing
you know.
I don't know exactly who hasbeen on your podcast and you
know because I am remiss in mypodcast listening.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Oh well, that is not a problem at all, I'm going to
change?
No need, because one of thethings we were talking about off
mic is that you're in the midstof a new project and you're
deep in a book that you're aboutto write.
I am.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I've been writing it for two years and I think by
August it will be ready, or evensooner, to be read by some
trusted readers before Ivolunteer.
You do, I do.
I pay people to read it becauseotherwise I think they don't
read it.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Really.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Well, not, you know, a small sum?
Yeah, because I would then askyou a few questions, of course,
about what made sounds or whatdidn't.
But yeah, I'm putting you onthe list, all right.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Well, it's interesting that it makes sense
that you're writing a bookbecause you have had such an
incredible life, and it mightnot be a memoir, but we're going
to get into a little of thedetails of your backstory here.
But what brought me here andthe reason that I wanted to talk
to you, is because you were avery major figure in the Santa
Fe art world for quite some time.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
It's a great, great part of my life, from the
beginning, of opening a gallery,when I knew nothing and had no
business experience, nobackground in art.
Just I think I'll start agallery and you know I had some
(04:03):
people who kind of supported theidea of me beginning a gallery,
but it was.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
But something tells me and I actually know the
answer to this a little bit.
But this wasn't your firstforay into doing something a
little bit off the grid.
No, I think.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
for me, the truth is I've lived my life a little off
the grid and now I'm livingliterally off the grid, but I
did that before.
Yes, I'm drawn to adventure andrisk and you know if it can be
done, maybe I can figure out howto do it, but naivete has been
(04:49):
my partner.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Beautifully said, because I just actually did a
solo podcast giving a little bitof the origin to why this
podcast came to be.
Podcast came to be and part ofit was a lark and part of it was
the learning curve and part ofit was like the the benefit of
not knowing what I was gettinginto.
Ignorance is bliss.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yes exactly, and I think I knew that because when I
met you, when we last reallyhad any time to talk, time to
Talk you were fairly new in townwith big ideas, and I've
watched from afar how you havetaken ideas and manifested them
(05:36):
Poof, like magic, or that's howit always seems to people who
are watching from afar.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Well, I'm so flattered that you've been
watching from afar and, as somepeople who have listened to my
podcast know, that urban arttripping, which was my original
big idea, which had a lot ofpotential, but then COVID
happened and poof, as you said,and so it's really great that
I've figured out.
For me, it's really great tohave figured out how to take
(06:05):
some of that energy and kind ofpivot and take it into a new
direction, but I still get totalk to all my same friends and
people.
Exactly, you know, I've kind ofbeen able to weave it into a
new tapestry.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
See, I have a million questions for you too, for when
I start my podcast.
Oh good, not that I.
You know I'm not going to starta podcast.
I was going to do somethinglike that and I found I don't
have the assistance that I need.
You know, I love ideas andtalking and creating, but I'm
(06:42):
not good at nuts and bolts.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Well, you might be able to find people through the
community that we have thatcould assist you with that,
because one of the things Iwanted to sort of a lost thread
speaking of that was whathappened with the Wonder
Institute, exactly what?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
happened with the Wonder Institute.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I wonder what happened with the Wonder
Institute.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
You know when I use this phrase when the gallery
failed, but people say, oh know,I use this phrase when the
gallery failed but people say,oh no, the gallery didn't fail.
But when it closed after 33years, I was so sad and I was so
alone and I was so broke and soat loose ends and sew at loose
(07:24):
ends.
And I remember the last day ofthe gallery in my last location
on 2nd Street.
Some people helped, I gave allthe art back and I gave a lot of
things away.
I did not owe any money to anyartists or business people in
(07:50):
town like framers or shippers,but I owed credit cards almost
$100,000.
And so I came home, home.
I put all the leftovers youknow everything that I removed
(08:12):
from the gallery in my garageand somebody helped me ship it
all to my house.
When they left, I sat on thefloor of the garage and I wept.
In fact you know I could weepnow.
Such a moment for me.
(08:34):
I didn't know like what?
What?
What next?
Who am I if I'm not LindaDurham girl art dealer?
Like what?
Speaker 1 (08:48):
But you had reinvented yourself before.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I know.
So I thought, okay, okay, whatdo I have?
What do I still have aside fromdebt?
I have this big old house and Ihave my abiding sense of wonder
, which I always have.
And my house was kind of likean institute, you know.
(09:14):
It was big, it had some grandrooms, and so I thought, well, I
could start the WonderInstitute, and that's all.
I had two words wonder andinstitute.
And so then from there, well,if you had a Wonder Institute,
what would go in it?
And as very little time went on, I found all these ideas, you
(09:42):
know.
So I had the Worldwide Women ofWonder, I had the Wonder
Postcard Project, I started theMuseum of events and poetry
(10:10):
readings, and it was great.
But I had no money and my housewas in danger of going into
foreclosure, into foreclosure,and so I had to wonder about how
(10:32):
do you save your life, how doyou keep bankruptcy away from
your door?
But not in a practical way likehow do you get a job or what,
Because right away I thought Ican now do something I've always
(10:56):
wanted to do.
I had a dream from my earlyyouth that you could go all the
way around the world.
I mean, you could start fromyour door and head left or right
or something, and keep goingand end up back at your door,
(11:16):
and it just was part of it's,part of me.
You know the circles and theMobius strip notion, and so I
even when I was still in debtand just starting to have the
Wonder Institute I got this idea.
I went way up into themountains and thought and
(11:40):
meditated and prayed and tore myhair and then I thought, okay,
I'm going to do this.
And how do you get thingshappening?
I always had this littleformula If you have an idea,
then you have to declare thatidea aloud and then you have to
(12:07):
proceed.
You know, you envision, it out.
Yeah, so I'm going around theworld.
How will I do that in depth?
I had a lot of great collectorswho liked me and whom I liked,
(12:30):
and I wrote a very carefulletter to 15 people who bought
from me, who had, as far as Icould tell, lots of money, and I
said I wanted to go around theworld and I had a project in
mind and if they would write mea check for $1,000, I would give
(12:53):
them something from mycollection worth $2,000 or
$3,000.
So 12 people sent me checks andthen I did like a couple of
public talks.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Is that where you used the words that we were
talking about?
No, that was even earlier.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
And I had a project in mind that I made these seeds,
these little disks embeddedwith wildflower seeds, and the
little discs had an image of theearth on one side and a woman
actually helped me make those,and I had people write prayers
(13:39):
for peace on the back side andmy idea was I would take them
around the world and plant them,and I did so.
I planted seeds of peace aroundthe world and I had enough
money.
I bought an around-the-worldticket and then I went around
(14:04):
the world and when I came backyou know I've always kept
journals, you know I kept notesThen, like magic happens.
I don't know, do you believe inmagic?
I don't know if you do.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Well, how can one not just even listening to the
story if I wasn't a believerbefore which I am Right, you
know, but that's the kind ofthing I just want to interject
that it was magic before youeven started.
It was magic getting from the.
I wonder how I'm going to dothis to the whatever inspired
and came through you to do that.
(14:42):
That's where the magic starts,so wonderful.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
And that's how the gallery started.
You know, I worked for ForrestFenn for one year and that's its
own long story and at the endof the year because I had
promised him I would stay a yearand I was his director of
(15:09):
research and at the end of theyear I was making $4.50 an hour.
And at the end of the year Iwrote a letter for the.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
We have some very talkative words.
We do, we do.
You can close that?
No, no, it's fine.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
For the better utilization of my time and
talent and I asked for $6 anhour.
This was in the late 70s andhis director, forrest, was out
of town and his director laughedwhen I said I wanted $6 an hour
.
So I didn't say this, but Ithought, well, fuck you.
(15:58):
And I resigned that day.
And then I thought what will Ido?
And a friend whom I met, areally good art dealer from New
York, said well, you could startyour own gallery.
And I well, how would I do that?
I don't have any money, mymarriage is falling apart, I
(16:20):
have two kids.
I have two kids and I don'treally warm to Remington's and
Russell's and the Taoistfounders, my friends, I have
friends who are artists.
That's the work I like and theydon't have proper
(16:45):
representation.
So I have that.
There's a formula, yes, right,the success of the no-nothing
formula.
And even when I worked forForrest I thought you know why
couldn't he take these shows toother places?
He didn't like the idea of youknow like trying to take a show
(17:07):
to New York or Chicago.
This was before the art fairs,and so I thought that's what
I'll do.
And I thought where could Itake a show of New Mexico, art
by people no one ever heard of.
And I thought Toronto.
(17:32):
I thought a bit, toronto wouldbe a great idea because it would
be international, and I lovethe idea of international.
You know, I don't have to worryabout how do you get across an
ocean.
And so I bought a ticket toToronto.
(17:54):
I didn't know anyone, but I knewsomebody who knew someone, and
I assembled a notebook I wish Istill had it, it would be so
much fun.
I assembled a notebook I wish Istill had it, it would be so
much fun Of slides Remember,pages of slides, oh yeah.
And miscellaneous littlegallery invitations of my
(18:16):
friends' art.
It just so happened that myfriends were Paul Sarkissian,
paul Pletka, alan Graham, larryBell Well, larry Bell, I didn't
know Ken Price at the time, buthe was part of the show Dick
(18:38):
Mason.
I had a friend who had anO'Keefe.
Two people gave me O'Keeffe'sfor my show Luis Jimenez and I
went to Toronto and FordRuthling, who's a long ago
(19:01):
artist in town, knew somebody, adesigner in Toronto, and he
gave me that name.
So first thing I did was go andvisit John Schofield, who turned
out to be very cheeky, greatdesigner, and he told me I I'm
(19:23):
looking for a venue.
You know, just a naive take andsometimes take you places.
And he said well, you know,they're building a big complex
in a nice part of Toronto andWilliam Louis Dreyfus is
(19:44):
building it.
I had never heard of him but Iknow now.
I mean he's like an amazingcollector.
His daughter is Julia LouisDreyfus.
So I went to meet with him.
I took this notebook I can'timagine how he must have laughed
as he turned these pages but hesaid I have a 5,000 square foot
(20:08):
space in this building I'mbuilding, you know, as a great
shopping center.
You can use that and great.
So I came back, I went to thebank and back then, you know, I
said I have an idea whose timehas come.
(20:28):
And I talked and talked to thisreally nice banker and he said
well, you convinced me and theyloaned me $25,000.
I did have a house at the time,but you know it was a simple
loan.
And so I started puttingeverything together and did that
(20:54):
show, except this show.
I did an invitation.
I got a mailing list of Torontocollectors and people and I
mailed 2,000 invitationshand-addressed.
Carol Mothner and a few otherpeople helped me address them.
(21:15):
They were really uglyinvitations.
But let's skip over that.
I didn't know it at the time.
Skip over that.
I didn't know it at the timeand I stamped them and mailed
them on the day of the greatCanadian postal strike, oh God.
And they never got there.
(21:35):
In fact, they might still be insome big mail box in you know
Alberta or somewhere I don'tknow.
So no one came.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
A couple of my friends you didn't- know it at
the time that you had picked anillustrious day for the mailing.
Well, how could I it?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
just happened.
It just happened.
I didn't know, you know that itwas pending or anything, I
didn't know.
And then bang.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
You know you read the news, so nothing ever got so it
probably didn't occur to youthat nothing got delivered until
nobody showed up well, no, Imean, then it's very, it's a big
deal.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
You know, if you have a postal strike, if we did no
mails going anywhere?
No, I knew, but I didn't knowbefore I mailed them.
And what could I have doneanyway?
And I did an ad for Art inAmerica, no, for Art News.
That would embarrass both of ustoday.
(22:39):
It was a Demis Culver paintingof a stylized New Mexico
landscape, but fanciful, notreal with the Toronto CN Tower
coming out of the middle of it,and the show was called New
Mexico in Toronto.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Straightforward yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
So virtually no one came.
I did everything, you know, Igot the lights, it looked good.
I had really good art.
John Fincher was in that show,carl Johansson, richard Thompson
, anyway.
Well, william Louis Dreyfusbought the big Ellen Gramps and
(23:30):
became a friend and so that itdidn't get me out of debt I mean
the show did not I lost money.
But when I got back all theartists put that show on their
(23:50):
resume and Larry Bell wasconnected with this impressive
group from California who wantedto come to Santa Fe and I
didn't have a gallery.
That was the other part.
I said the show was part, youknow, sponsored by or presented
(24:14):
by Linda Durham Gallery backthen and a few people.
I'm sorry this is such a longstory.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
No, it's fantastic If people could see my face.
My jaw is like in my lap.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
A few people did like wander from down below where
there were all these fancy shops, got off on the wrong floor of
the elevator and wandered in.
And I remember one personsaying oh, we've been to your
gallery, we love your gallery,we love Santa Fe.
And I didn't tell them therewas no gallery.
(24:50):
And then another beautifulcouple came in and said where
exactly is your gallery?
We're going to be in Santa Fein July and I gave them my home
address.
Well, that's thinking on yourfeet.
I turned my when I got back.
(25:10):
Well, I, the house we had I wasstill married was the De La
Pena house.
It's a magnificent house.
It's been ruined now by, if Imay say, jerry Pevers and
subsequent people who took anauthentic New Mexico treasure
(25:34):
and de-treasurized it, or anyway, I don't know.
So I turned a couple of roomsof the house into a gallery and
the collectors that Larry Belltold me about were from SICA,
the Society for the Advancement,no, the Society for the
(25:58):
Encouragement of ContemporaryArt.
And those people came to myhouse and the art was there.
And one of the people saidwould you think of doing a show
like you did in Toronto, in theBay Area?
So that was my second show andone of the big companies in the
(26:24):
Bay Area paid for that show, soit broke even.
And then these people from theScottish Arts Council wandered
through.
They were on a holiday acrossAmerica, wandering through New
Mexico, and they liked NewMexico and they thought where
(26:48):
could we see art?
And they asked somebody attheir hotel, a concierge, and
she said, well, linda Durham hasa gallery.
And they came to my house wehad just then I was buying the
(27:09):
house on 400 Canyon Road and Iwas just opening that and so
we're condensing the timeline alittle bit, otherwise he'll be
here until August.
And so they came and we talkedand we had a conversation about
(27:31):
how New Mexico and Scotland theart scenes had something in
common, because they drew reallytalented people, they were a
magnet for creative individuals,but a little too far from the
knowledge centers, but a littletoo far from the knowledge
(27:56):
centers.
And so one of the two peoplewas the head of the Scottish
Arts Council and we planned ashow I can show you a catalog
and they paid for everything andthis show was called New New
Mexico and I had Luis JimenezLarry Bell was in that Susan
(28:21):
Rollin, who's not around anymore.
I still have two GeorgiaO'Keeffe's.
Who else was in that show?
Speaker 1 (28:34):
it was a condensed show but it was elegant and they
paid for everything and itcoincided with the Fringe
Festival in Edinburgh and thenthe show went to another venue
in Scotland and it just unfoldedand well, I just want to
(29:03):
interject for a second, becauseyou know the the purpose of this
podcast was to, you know, givepeople a sense of you know how
do you access the creative field, how do you bring something
through you, and every storythat you're telling is a
beautiful illustration of that.
So we can keep going untilAugust, because that's the whole
(29:24):
idea here, right.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
And then you can think tomorrow and say let's
just talk about one little thing.
I don't know what you want todo, but you know like I'm
thrilled with my life, and wementioned this a little earlier.
(29:47):
You know, you embrace a projector a style or an idea and you
run with it, you gallop with it,you fall on your face with it
and it may end, but it's worthyof staying alive.
(30:12):
And you know, I wrote a littlebit about it in my last memoir,
and you know, and then yourealize you think that story, I
(30:33):
think those 33 years were as bigas the world.
But then, as you look, as timegoes by, as other things happen,
as you read, live and continue,read, live and continue.
(30:54):
It was my world, but it's onlytiny.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
You know, and it can disappear.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
That's why it'd be nice to be preserved forever in
a podcast, assuming thetechnology doesn't go the way of
Betamax, you know, or somethinglike that.
Right right set out on thisproject was how wonderful would
it be to have a collection oftoday, of new new mexico artist
(31:36):
voices and I didn't keep itlimited to painting, so I've
done dancers and writers andmusicians, and.
But it's just sometime in atime capsule somewhere there
will be this tiny little bubbleof what was happening in this
slice of time.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
In the voice of the people who were carrying it yeah
, yeah, yeah, trudgingly, orhowever, yeah, no, because I
believe this very deeply.
New Mexico is a magnet for thecreative individual and maybe
(32:18):
it's northern New Mexico, it'sbeyond this area, and they don't
have it in other states.
I could name, okay, nebraska,you know it's not there, it's
(32:39):
not in any of the other states.
The way it is in New Mexicoit's in the dirt and the people
are drawn to the dirt, or themountains, or the clouds, or the
sky, or the multiculturalpersonality in a manageable size
(33:01):
.
Yeah, new York is waymulticultural and it's its own
thing.
New Mexico is.
You know it's an amazing placeand in my experience, you look
around, you see who made a homehere, who made a painting here,
(33:28):
who created a fashion world here.
You know it's an amazing place.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yeah, it is the origin of a lot of creativity,
for sure.
And what drew you to Santa Feoriginally?
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Because I happen to know that you.
I was happy in New York and Imet my second husband.
I had like a starter marriageat 19 that didn't last very long
.
And then I met this amazing man,bart Durham amazing man, bart
(34:19):
Durham, and he had done hisundergraduate work and some
graduate work in New Mexico,although he was from Manhasset
and we fell in love and hisdream was to move to New Mexico,
whereas my dream was to becomefamous I didn't know how, you
(34:39):
know, like a famous what, linda,you know?
An actor, a politician, youknow what?
Speaker 1 (35:03):
But love really overtook me in an adventure, the
sense that, yeah, like maybethere's theater in new mexico, I
don't that other veryinteresting chapter of your life
involving bunny ears.
Let's just say that.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Well, I moved to New Mexico in 1966.
I moved to New York in 1962.
And that was when the bunnyyears, the bunny years.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
And did you think that maybe your path to fame
would be through the bunny years?
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Well, when I moved, there I thought, you know, I'll
just try out for something.
They'll realize my talent andyou know, broadway will say at
last she's here.
So yeah, it didn't happen likethat.
(36:10):
I actually moved to New York.
I was 19 during the greatnewspaper strike.
Strikes and you have something Ijust realized that those were
two games, yeah, and what wasstrike three, we'll get there.
And what was strike three,we'll get there.
(36:31):
And so I was trying to.
I was naive but I thought, youknow, I need to audition for a
part.
And you know, I had greataccolades from my college years
in the theater and I worked inthe professional theater from
(36:53):
the time I was 13, all throughhigh school.
So I thought, you know, butthere was a newspaper strike.
So I went around to employmentagencies, employment agencies,
and I said, you know, I'm anactor, I'm looking for a theater
(37:17):
job, a gig.
And this one guy said you know,they're hiring people at the
Playboy Club.
But I had never heard of thePlayboy Club and but he said you
know they're hiring, and hegave me an address where they
were.
And so I I went and I filledout this elaborate application
(37:48):
and then I got.
Then they said, okay, they werehaving these mass calls.
You had to show up in a leotardor a bathing suit and your
appointment is at 1.20 onThursday.
So I showed up in a leotard anda million and a million young
(38:14):
girls, young women, and I had myinterview and it wasn't Hugh
Hefner, but it was one of thebig Playboy executives, tony
Roma.
Later, I think he had a youknow a series of Italian
(38:35):
restaurants I'm not sure, but hewas Tony Roma and I had this
leotard on with three buttons onit because I had used it when I
was in high school where I wasvoted most talented and Tony
(38:57):
Roma said I like your buttons.
Of course I also had abeautiful figure.
So I got the call back and Igot a job.
So out of the 15,000 women theypicked 80 and I was one of them
(39:20):
, and then I became the head ofthe training department.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
So magic has followed you Everywhere, and all I can
think of is all the world's astage and you just keep taking
on new parts.
Yeah, that's it.
And then you play them to thehilt yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Right, and if it's not real, make it up Right,
improvise.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Make it real, yeah, yeah.
So how much of the chutzpah orwhatever you would call it
confidence that you developed tostart a gallery, to leave the
gallery business, to startwriting your memoir, etc.
Do you think that the genesisof that was in being a bunny, or
(40:07):
was it earlier than that?
Or was it earlier than that?
Speaker 2 (40:11):
I'm not sure I know what you mean, but starting the
gallery was.
You know it seemed like an ideatoo big to handle, but I knew
some of the beginning things.
I knew artists and I had workedfor Forrest.
And working for Forrest Ilearned a lot about what not to
(40:36):
do and what to do.
And I started it, as you know,in my house in those early shows
.
And then that building onCanyon Road came on the market
and in an instant I thought thatwould be a great location for a
(41:02):
gallery.
By then we were selling ourhouse to Jerry Peters.
It was a very bad deal.
We were also Bart and I weregetting divorced.
We split everything.
I got $25,000, my second$25,000.
(41:24):
And I made that a down payment.
And there was somebody elsealso bidding for that place.
It was $200,000.
And Forrest Fenn knew theprevious owners and I went to
(41:45):
him and I said I really wantthis.
And he talked to the people andthey accepted my offer.
Wow, this.
And he talked to the people andthey accepted my offer and so I
just moved in and then peoplecame along.
(42:09):
I had met people.
I hired somebody to be adirector Magic, now I can't
think of you know.
Somebody said well, if you hadto put the $25,000 down, how did
you do that?
I don't know Right, I don'tremember the money things.
I have never had any money formore than you know 10 minutes.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Well, it seems like you've got this kind of
mechanism where it just flowsthrough you.
It's part of the whole magic.
Gone to New York City andwalked into a very unique
position of being a bunny aseasily as you walked into being
a gallerist, and you know eachstep along the way.
(42:59):
You wore the buttons, you gotthe 25 grand.
I mean, it sort of sounds likethat's just Linda Durham's
special sauce.
I really think that.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
I don't think that.
That's just the way LindaDurham made it through.
I think you can tap into magic.
And what is it?
What enables you to tap intomagic?
You know Willing to risk.
You know Imagination.
(43:32):
You know imagination.
You know imagination, justenvision it and walk towards it
and it sounds naive.
And yes, that's part of it.
You know the naivete doesn'ttell you well, you can't do that
.
You don't actually have thecredentials.
(43:55):
Yeah, it takes.
You need much more money.
You don't know the art.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
You don't know anything.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
You don't know anything.
When I was doing the very firstshow and I knew some artists
and I said you know I'm going todo a show and will you be in it
?
And they said yes.
And then Paul Sarkissian saidwell, are you going to have Ken
Price in your show?
(44:27):
And I said well, who's KenPrice?
And he said you don't know whoKen Price is.
No, but I'm going to find out.
I got his phone number and Icalled him and I said Mr Price,
(44:49):
this is Linda Durham.
I'm curating an exhibition ofcontemporary New Mexico artists
in Toronto and Paul Sarkissiangave me your name and I would
like to come and talk to youabout it.
So he invited me.
I got there.
You know he had all his.
(45:12):
It was when he was puttingtogether Happy I can't remember
the name of the show.
It's the LA Museum, an LAMuseum, happy's Curio Theme.
And I looked around at thisweird work.
I had never seen his workbefore.
(45:33):
I didn't get it, I didn'tunderstand it and he said you
know, all of this is going tothe show, but in California.
But you can take this.
And he pointed in a plinth witha covering of a plexiglass box.
(45:54):
There was this little standlike a purple velvet stand, and
in it was something like a giantpeanut resting on the ceramic
peanut.
And I said, because you know, Ijust learned it's Ken Price I
(46:18):
said, oh, that would be perfect,I would love to take that.
And so I had this consignmentthings with like and we with
duplicate paper.
What do you call that?
(46:38):
Yeah, so he filled everythingout.
I said this would be great andI said you know, and how much is
this?
And he said you can sell it fornine.
And I said that would be greatand I wrote down 900.
So he signed it and I took itand we arranged, I picked it up,
(47:01):
but well, I didn't pick it up.
Then I went home and I went toa tea party.
Rosalind Constable was a friendof mine and she was an old
woman not as old as I am now,but you know she was old and she
had been the avant-garde artsreporter for Time Life and she
(47:25):
was friends with all kinds ofgreat people.
And I told her that I had justspoken to Ken Price and he had
given me a piece and she said,oh, that's wonderful, she's from
England.
You know, I saw Ken Price notlong ago, a little teacup and I
(47:47):
was going to buy it but it wasnine thousand dollars, and well,
I didn't buy it and I, you knowto buy it, but it was $9,000,
and well, I didn't buy it.
And you know I thought she said$9,000, $9,000.
, you didn't pardon thisconversation.
So that afternoon I called Kenback and I said you know, excuse
me, I'm just looking over myconsignment forms, me, I'm just
(48:09):
looking over my consignmentforms.
Did I inadvertently leave azero off your consignment thing?
He said, let me look.
He said, yeah, you did.
And I said well, just pleaseaddress that.
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
What a good recovery, Holy cow.
Anyway, you know, it's justAgain magic.
I'm going to have to keepsaying it because it just keeps
showing up.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Everywhere, and sometimes just in the nick of
time, usually just in the nickof time, and everything leads to
everything, and until itdoesn't, until it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
Well, what's?
Speaker 2 (48:55):
your next magic trick ?
Mine, you know well,rediscovering.
You know who I am if I don'thave all that you know.
And what is powerful,significant, exciting when
(49:21):
you're 82?
I'm 82 and a half, 82 and ahalf, 82 and a half, and I'm
discovering that you know.
I hope you're as lucky as I amand you get here and beyond,
because it's remarkable and Ican begin to look at things
(49:48):
differently and rediscover somuch about myself, about what
did and didn't happen, whathappens next, because I'm really
interested.
I want to stay healthy, healthy, healthy because I want to know
what happens next.
(50:09):
But all during those years, myunder life was a life of
investigating the world and thepeople in the world.
So you've been driven by wonderfrom the beginning.
I made a promise to myself whenI was really quite young that
(50:36):
every year I would go somewhereforeign and exotic and I would
never say that I didn't have thetime or the money, because I
knew that would always be true,because I knew that would always
be true, that you know.
But so almost everywhere I'veever gone.
(50:58):
Well, that's not true, becauseas time went on, you know not
that many years ago I took theTrans-Siberian Railway from
Moscow to Vladivostok and mylove, who came into my life also
(51:25):
in the nick of time, 12 yearsago, sponsored me for that trip.
And for that trip I thought I'mgoing to meet people, I'm going
to be gone for six weeks I thinkfive weeks and I'm going to
(51:48):
want to have a gift or somethingto give them and I'm only
taking one small suitcase.
So on Facebook and you mightknow about this I said I'm doing
this trip.
Would any of my artist friendsbe willing to give me a small
(52:10):
original work of art, awatercolor, a drawing no bigger
than a postcard, that I couldtake to give to people I meet on
my trip?
You know, I thought if I getlike 10 things, you know, that
would be great.
(52:30):
I got over 100.
And so I did the catalog.
I'll give you one, oh.
God, I would love that, of thatexperience, pictures of a lot of
the art that people gave me andpictures of people in Russia
(52:53):
holding a piece.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
And this is well after the Seed Project.
Oh yeah, this was right before.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
COVID oh wow, yeah, oh wow, yeah.
And here's a quote that I loveand it's deeply attributed to
Goethe.
Some couplet Whatever you cando or dream, you can begin it.
(53:22):
Boldness has genius, power andmagic in it.
Well, I should have thattattooed across my chest.
I'm not sure there would be anyroom.
Speaker 1 (53:32):
well, I should have that tattoo across my chest.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
But I already have Not sure there would be any room
.
So, yeah, so that is my life,one magic experience after
another.
And within the big magic thingare all the little ones, the
ones that happen every day, areall the little ones, the ones
(53:54):
that happen every day.
And so maybe, if I werestarting over and rewriting my
life, I would just say you knowthe magic within the magic,
that's it, and the wonder thatis just everywhere.
(54:14):
And you know, in the beginningyou don't wonder about this and
then later on you do.
You know, I never wonderedabout the planets and the
galaxies, but I live with anastronomer, among other things,
(54:38):
and it's very hard to live hereand not look up in the dark,
off-grid and not wonder and notlisten to the stories about
distances, things that like, nomatter how creative you are and
(54:59):
imaginative, you can't imaginethat it's that far and that this
represent, this tiny speck,represents something so big you
can't imagine.
And I also think something thatyou would see in a microscope
(55:22):
would be.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
Has a universe inside it.
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (55:25):
Yeah, anyway, that's an aside.
Speaker 1 (55:30):
Well, it's an aside, but you know it leaves me
totally speechless.
I mean, I feel like we could behere till August just to pick
up on you know a thread ofeverything that you've said.
But we started with whathappened to the Wonder Institute
.
Now I know it's, you've justembodied it you are the Wonder
Institute.
Speaker 2 (55:50):
I will.
You know if I had a dream oranother dream, because I am
redoing my small website.
My Wonder Institute website isnot available right now.
It exists somewhere.
I want to find it and itshouldn't die.
(56:14):
You know it shouldn't besomething like.
That was then.
This is now Because there's somuch more to it.
And you know, we did essaycontests.
I have all the postcards fromthe postcard project and it
(56:36):
would make you weep to see when.
You know, I gave thesepostcards out and I put stamps
on them because that helps youget them back, you know, and had
my the Wonder Institute addressand on the other side it just
(56:58):
said you know, I wonder, and itwas all blank.
You could fill in some of them.
The first batch said I wonderabout.
But afterwards, I wonder, andthe things people wrote and I
haven't, you know, stacked thathigh and some of them make you
(57:20):
cry, you know, and some of themare funny and some of them say,
yes, me too.
I wonder about this.
Will they ever have a?
I wonder if they'll ever have acure for cancer.
You know one that I remember soclearly.
I wonder whatever happened toJenny?
(57:45):
I miss you, jenny, love Mom.
I'm a sensitive person.
Speaker 1 (57:56):
Well, I mean, it's so deeply touching and I think
we're all so starved for wonderand awe, and somebody just sent
that to me.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:04):
You know, not to me, to the Wonder Institute.
And people drew.
You know I could make a book ofthose scars, but Well, you have
to stick around for quite a fewmore years because you've got a
lot of work to do.
Speaker 1 (58:20):
I do.
I've got a lot.
Speaker 2 (58:21):
Yeah, so you know I built a chapel.
That was a project to just likewhat.
We'll go out and see it later.
Speaker 1 (58:33):
Well, I saw the progress as I followed you on
social media and it'll be aprivilege to see it, but really,
I thought when you were cominghere, what are we going to talk
about?
Speaker 2 (58:48):
I thought we would be talking about the magnificent
artists who trusted me todisplay their work and by their
work, through their work, I hadlike uncountable wonders and
(59:16):
experiences of being with theirwork, seeing people respond to
it, taking it to Chicago andMiami and LA and New York and
Spain and Germany.
And you know, in Germany, Imean no, in Spain, at the big
(59:42):
Arco Fair.
At the big Arco Fair, the kingof Spain walked through my booth
and saw the art, you know, andother people and wondrous people
, you know.
(01:00:03):
That's the same thing Like howdid I know to show this work and
that work, a whole lot, youknow.
Going back to the beginningdays, I didn't know anything but
I had a real sense of who didand I listened to them and
(01:00:27):
mainly the people who knewsomething, something that could
help me choose and do Artistseverything.
The most important informationI ever got about living a life
(01:00:49):
during those years, informationcame from artists how to look,
how to see, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
Well, that's exactly.
The purpose of this project isto bring that into living rooms
across the world, because thoseinsights are so valuable.
Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
I'm looking at that Erica Wanamaker.
It was David Anderson, anotherartist, who said you ought to
look at Erica Wanamaker's work,and it was Alan Graham who said
you should look at RichardHogan's work.
(01:01:32):
And it was Richard Hogan whosaid you should look at Lucy
Mackey's work.
And it went like that.
It was Gene Newman who said youknow, do you know, john Connell
?
It unfolded like that andeventually I could see, not what
(01:01:59):
they saw necessarily, but whatI could see.
I could see, and I don't knowhow it happened, but for me
there came a time when I couldlook at something and say
there's something in here that'smuch bigger than my opinion.
(01:02:22):
But it ends up seeming like myopinion if I hang it on the wall
of my opinion.
But it ends up seeming like myopinion if I hang it on the wall
of my gallery.
But there's something here, Iwant to be around it, I want to.
Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
Well, when you're an open vessel for the energy that
is being expressed, the vehiclemight be an artist over there,
but they're tapping into thatfield and all you're doing is
being sort of a radio stationtuning it in.
What is that?
Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
field, you know, and thank you, Thank you for letting
me play in the field, yeah,really.
And then you know, once you'relooking at magnificent work,
once you're talking with theperson who manifested it, you
(01:03:19):
know it just fills you.
You know I am filled not, Iwould say, on one day, filled to
overflowing, but the flow goeson.
It, you know it will never beempty.
(01:03:39):
Certain things change, certainthings.
Now I like, for a differentreason, I collect.
I still collect work when I canNot necessarily work.
Oh, this would have been perfectin my gallery.
Or oh, yeah, this is just whatthe gallery would have shown,
(01:04:05):
but something in it.
And sometimes it's like I knowhow sincere this artist is.
I know this, you know, camefrom a really thoughtful, deep,
spiritual, intellectual, also,you know, extremely smart place
(01:04:30):
and I want to support it.
If I had money, you know, Iwould still be buying a whole
lot, collecting, giving away.
You know, because it's stillout there, it's harder to find.
For me it's still out there,it's harder to find.
For me it's a little harder tofind now, partly because, well,
(01:04:55):
there's so, there's so much outthere now and there are so many
people who have done eitherdecided to be an artist or open
a gallery or begin to collectand you know, and not all of it,
(01:05:22):
I think it's wonderful todecide to be an artist.
Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
Well, if I may say one of the things that you know,
you have matured and developedsuch a sophisticated attunement
to authentic work that forsomebody to connect with you
they have to be deeply in theirpractice.
Speaker 2 (01:05:48):
And that term authentic, you know, and so we
all have it, I think.
I mean we don't all display itor notice it or realize that we
have it, you know, but that'sjust it.
You know, the great artists, inmy opinion, are doing their
(01:06:09):
authentic work, and so you getthese little feelers that go out
.
Yeah, maybe I don't like it,but it's authentic, right, right
.
Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
And I think that once we attune to authenticity, we
can see it not just in the artworld.
We see it in a doctor, in agardener, in a you know name.
Insert profession here ornon-profession In the poem.
Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:06:40):
Yeah.
So I think that that's thewonder and the mystery and the
pondering is that you know whatis our authentic life?
If that was the question thatis sort of at the heart of what
you have lived your life.
What I'm trying to do is, youknow, how do we find that
(01:07:00):
expression of our authenticselves?
Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
And you've certainly given us lots of places and you
go through all different thingsand you wander here and you open
this door and you read thatbook and you go here and you
talk to whomever and it allmatters, it all adds to it If,
in fact, you are open to askingyourself that question, the
(01:07:24):
basic question.
You know like what more am I?
You know, who am I?
It sounds so trite, butfiguring it out, gives us the
whole journey.
Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
Yeah, that's perfect.
I'm going to end it there.
Well, thanks for joining ustoday.
Please like and follow us onartstormingorg, where you'll
find a list of our shows, atranscript of this episode with
links to the guest page, as wellas our other projects.
Artstorming is brought to youand supported by Artbridge and
(01:08:01):
listeners like you.
Look for us on your favoritepodcast platforms.
Ever wonder what makes really creative people
tick?
Where do their ideas come from?
What keeps them energized?
What kinds of things get intheir way?
Is their life really as muchfun as it looks from the outside
?
Hello, I'm your host, liliPierpont, and this is
ArtStorming, a podcast about hownew ideas come to life and
become paintings, sculptures,plays or poems, performances or
(00:25):
collections.
Each episode, I'll chat with aguest from the arts community
and explore how the mostcreative among us stare down a
blank canvas or reach into thevoid and create something new.
Today, I'll be artstorming withLinda Durham.
Anyone who's traveled in thecontemporary art circles in
(00:47):
Santa Fe in the last 30 yearsknows the name.
She helped shape thecontemporary art scene here.
When I first met her in 2016-17, she had already closed her
gallery, but was still veryinfluential in the lives of many
artists.
By that time, she was well intodeveloping the Wonder Institute
, which you'll hear more aboutin our conversation.
(01:07):
I attended a few events hostedby Linda and then our
trajectories just seemed to takeus in different directions.
But as I was thinking aboutbringing this season to a close
with still so many people totalk to, I thought who can I add
to this season, who would roundit out and really give it some
context.
I thought who can I add to thisseason?
Who would round it out andreally give it some context?
I still had a long list ofpeople who absolutely belong in
(01:28):
this season, but I only had afew episodes left.
Minutes later I was scrollingthrough my social media and I
got my answer.
I can't remember if it was oneof her posts or a comment that
she made on one of my posts, butLinda's name sprang from the
screen and I had one of thoseduh moments.
I messaged her and, to mydelight, she accepted right away
(01:49):
and here is that conversation.
We are here and I am with LindaDurham.
I drove it's like driving backeast to get here.
It was just a long way away,but so such a beautiful drive
and so worth the wait.
And I was just about to saythat this podcast would not be
complete without you being partof it, because I think you have
(02:13):
raised or represented or ownartwork from almost every single
person I've spoken to.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
I think that's great and I look forward to knowing
you know.
I don't know exactly who hasbeen on your podcast and you
know because I am remiss in mypodcast listening.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Oh well, that is not a problem at all, I'm going to
change?
No need, because one of thethings we were talking about off
mic is that you're in the midstof a new project and you're
deep in a book that you're aboutto write.
I am.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I've been writing it for two years and I think by
August it will be ready, or evensooner, to be read by some
trusted readers before Ivolunteer.
You do, I do.
I pay people to read it becauseotherwise I think they don't
read it.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Really.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Well, not, you know, a small sum?
Yeah, because I would then askyou a few questions, of course,
about what made sounds or whatdidn't.
But yeah, I'm putting you onthe list, all right.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Well, it's interesting that it makes sense
that you're writing a bookbecause you have had such an
incredible life, and it mightnot be a memoir, but we're going
to get into a little of thedetails of your backstory here.
But what brought me here andthe reason that I wanted to talk
to you, is because you were avery major figure in the Santa
Fe art world for quite some time.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
It's a great, great part of my life, from the
beginning, of opening a gallery,when I knew nothing and had no
business experience, nobackground in art.
Just I think I'll start agallery and you know I had some
(04:03):
people who kind of supported theidea of me beginning a gallery,
but it was.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
But something tells me and I actually know the
answer to this a little bit.
But this wasn't your firstforay into doing something a
little bit off the grid.
No, I think.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
for me, the truth is I've lived my life a little off
the grid and now I'm livingliterally off the grid, but I
did that before.
Yes, I'm drawn to adventure andrisk and you know if it can be
done, maybe I can figure out howto do it, but naivete has been
(04:49):
my partner.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Beautifully said, because I just actually did a
solo podcast giving a little bitof the origin to why this
podcast came to be.
Podcast came to be and part ofit was a lark and part of it was
the learning curve and part ofit was like the the benefit of
not knowing what I was gettinginto.
Ignorance is bliss.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yes exactly, and I think I knew that because when I
met you, when we last reallyhad any time to talk, time to
Talk you were fairly new in townwith big ideas, and I've
watched from afar how you havetaken ideas and manifested them
(05:36):
Poof, like magic, or that's howit always seems to people who
are watching from afar.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Well, I'm so flattered that you've been
watching from afar and, as somepeople who have listened to my
podcast know, that urban arttripping, which was my original
big idea, which had a lot ofpotential, but then COVID
happened and poof, as you said,and so it's really great that
I've figured out.
For me, it's really great tohave figured out how to take
(06:05):
some of that energy and kind ofpivot and take it into a new
direction, but I still get totalk to all my same friends and
people.
Exactly, you know, I've kind ofbeen able to weave it into a
new tapestry.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
See, I have a million questions for you too, for when
I start my podcast.
Oh good, not that I.
You know I'm not going to starta podcast.
I was going to do somethinglike that and I found I don't
have the assistance that I need.
You know, I love ideas andtalking and creating, but I'm
(06:42):
not good at nuts and bolts.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Well, you might be able to find people through the
community that we have thatcould assist you with that,
because one of the things Iwanted to sort of a lost thread
speaking of that was whathappened with the Wonder
Institute, exactly what?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
happened with the Wonder Institute.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I wonder what happened with the Wonder
Institute.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
You know when I use this phrase when the gallery
failed, but people say, oh know,I use this phrase when the
gallery failed but people say,oh no, the gallery didn't fail.
But when it closed after 33years, I was so sad and I was so
alone and I was so broke and soat loose ends and sew at loose
(07:24):
ends.
And I remember the last day ofthe gallery in my last location
on 2nd Street.
Some people helped, I gave allthe art back and I gave a lot of
things away.
I did not owe any money to anyartists or business people in
(07:50):
town like framers or shippers,but I owed credit cards almost
$100,000.
And so I came home, home.
I put all the leftovers youknow everything that I removed
(08:12):
from the gallery in my garageand somebody helped me ship it
all to my house.
When they left, I sat on thefloor of the garage and I wept.
In fact you know I could weepnow.
Such a moment for me.
(08:34):
I didn't know like what?
What?
What next?
Who am I if I'm not LindaDurham girl art dealer?
Like what?
Speaker 1 (08:48):
But you had reinvented yourself before.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I know.
So I thought, okay, okay, whatdo I have?
What do I still have aside fromdebt?
I have this big old house and Ihave my abiding sense of wonder
, which I always have.
And my house was kind of likean institute, you know.
(09:14):
It was big, it had some grandrooms, and so I thought, well, I
could start the WonderInstitute, and that's all.
I had two words wonder andinstitute.
And so then from there, well,if you had a Wonder Institute,
what would go in it?
And as very little time went on, I found all these ideas, you
(09:42):
know.
So I had the Worldwide Women ofWonder, I had the Wonder
Postcard Project, I started theMuseum of events and poetry
(10:10):
readings, and it was great.
But I had no money and my housewas in danger of going into
foreclosure, into foreclosure,and so I had to wonder about how
(10:32):
do you save your life, how doyou keep bankruptcy away from
your door?
But not in a practical way likehow do you get a job or what,
Because right away I thought Ican now do something I've always
(10:56):
wanted to do.
I had a dream from my earlyyouth that you could go all the
way around the world.
I mean, you could start fromyour door and head left or right
or something, and keep goingand end up back at your door,
(11:16):
and it just was part of it's,part of me.
You know the circles and theMobius strip notion, and so I
even when I was still in debtand just starting to have the
Wonder Institute I got this idea.
I went way up into themountains and thought and
(11:40):
meditated and prayed and tore myhair and then I thought, okay,
I'm going to do this.
And how do you get thingshappening?
I always had this littleformula If you have an idea,
then you have to declare thatidea aloud and then you have to
(12:07):
proceed.
You know, you envision, it out.
Yeah, so I'm going around theworld.
How will I do that in depth?
I had a lot of great collectorswho liked me and whom I liked,
(12:30):
and I wrote a very carefulletter to 15 people who bought
from me, who had, as far as Icould tell, lots of money, and I
said I wanted to go around theworld and I had a project in
mind and if they would write mea check for $1,000, I would give
(12:53):
them something from mycollection worth $2,000 or
$3,000.
So 12 people sent me checks andthen I did like a couple of
public talks.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Is that where you used the words that we were
talking about?
No, that was even earlier.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
And I had a project in mind that I made these seeds,
these little disks embeddedwith wildflower seeds, and the
little discs had an image of theearth on one side and a woman
actually helped me make those,and I had people write prayers
(13:39):
for peace on the back side andmy idea was I would take them
around the world and plant them,and I did so.
I planted seeds of peace aroundthe world and I had enough
money.
I bought an around-the-worldticket and then I went around
(14:04):
the world and when I came backyou know I've always kept
journals, you know I kept notesThen, like magic happens.
I don't know, do you believe inmagic?
I don't know if you do.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Well, how can one not just even listening to the
story if I wasn't a believerbefore which I am Right, you
know, but that's the kind ofthing I just want to interject
that it was magic before youeven started.
It was magic getting from the.
I wonder how I'm going to dothis to the whatever inspired
and came through you to do that.
(14:42):
That's where the magic starts,so wonderful.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
And that's how the gallery started.
You know, I worked for ForrestFenn for one year and that's its
own long story and at the endof the year because I had
promised him I would stay a yearand I was his director of
(15:09):
research and at the end of theyear I was making $4.50 an hour.
And at the end of the year Iwrote a letter for the.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
We have some very talkative words.
We do, we do.
You can close that?
No, no, it's fine.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
For the better utilization of my time and
talent and I asked for $6 anhour.
This was in the late 70s andhis director, forrest, was out
of town and his director laughedwhen I said I wanted $6 an hour
.
So I didn't say this, but Ithought, well, fuck you.
(15:58):
And I resigned that day.
And then I thought what will Ido?
And a friend whom I met, areally good art dealer from New
York, said well, you could startyour own gallery.
And I well, how would I do that?
I don't have any money, mymarriage is falling apart, I
(16:20):
have two kids.
I have two kids and I don'treally warm to Remington's and
Russell's and the Taoistfounders, my friends, I have
friends who are artists.
That's the work I like and theydon't have proper
(16:45):
representation.
So I have that.
There's a formula, yes, right,the success of the no-nothing
formula.
And even when I worked forForrest I thought you know why
couldn't he take these shows toother places?
He didn't like the idea of youknow like trying to take a show
(17:07):
to New York or Chicago.
This was before the art fairs,and so I thought that's what
I'll do.
And I thought where could Itake a show of New Mexico, art
by people no one ever heard of.
And I thought Toronto.
(17:32):
I thought a bit, toronto wouldbe a great idea because it would
be international, and I lovethe idea of international.
You know, I don't have to worryabout how do you get across an
ocean.
And so I bought a ticket toToronto.
(17:54):
I didn't know anyone, but I knewsomebody who knew someone, and
I assembled a notebook I wish Istill had it, it would be so
much fun.
I assembled a notebook I wish Istill had it, it would be so
much fun Of slides Remember,pages of slides, oh yeah.
And miscellaneous littlegallery invitations of my
(18:16):
friends' art.
It just so happened that myfriends were Paul Sarkissian,
paul Pletka, alan Graham, larryBell Well, larry Bell, I didn't
know Ken Price at the time, buthe was part of the show Dick
(18:38):
Mason.
I had a friend who had anO'Keefe.
Two people gave me O'Keeffe'sfor my show Luis Jimenez and I
went to Toronto and FordRuthling, who's a long ago
(19:01):
artist in town, knew somebody, adesigner in Toronto, and he
gave me that name.
So first thing I did was go andvisit John Schofield, who turned
out to be very cheeky, greatdesigner, and he told me I I'm
(19:23):
looking for a venue.
You know, just a naive take andsometimes take you places.
And he said well, you know,they're building a big complex
in a nice part of Toronto andWilliam Louis Dreyfus is
(19:44):
building it.
I had never heard of him but Iknow now.
I mean he's like an amazingcollector.
His daughter is Julia LouisDreyfus.
So I went to meet with him.
I took this notebook I can'timagine how he must have laughed
as he turned these pages but hesaid I have a 5,000 square foot
(20:08):
space in this building I'mbuilding, you know, as a great
shopping center.
You can use that and great.
So I came back, I went to thebank and back then, you know, I
said I have an idea whose timehas come.
(20:28):
And I talked and talked to thisreally nice banker and he said
well, you convinced me and theyloaned me $25,000.
I did have a house at the time,but you know it was a simple
loan.
And so I started puttingeverything together and did that
(20:54):
show, except this show.
I did an invitation.
I got a mailing list of Torontocollectors and people and I
mailed 2,000 invitationshand-addressed.
Carol Mothner and a few otherpeople helped me address them.
(21:15):
They were really uglyinvitations.
But let's skip over that.
I didn't know it at the time.
Skip over that.
I didn't know it at the timeand I stamped them and mailed
them on the day of the greatCanadian postal strike, oh God.
And they never got there.
(21:35):
In fact, they might still be insome big mail box in you know
Alberta or somewhere I don'tknow.
So no one came.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
A couple of my friends you didn't- know it at
the time that you had picked anillustrious day for the mailing.
Well, how could I it?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
just happened.
It just happened.
I didn't know, you know that itwas pending or anything, I
didn't know.
And then bang.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
You know you read the news, so nothing ever got so it
probably didn't occur to youthat nothing got delivered until
nobody showed up well, no, Imean, then it's very, it's a big
deal.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
You know, if you have a postal strike, if we did no
mails going anywhere?
No, I knew, but I didn't knowbefore I mailed them.
And what could I have doneanyway?
And I did an ad for Art inAmerica, no, for Art News.
That would embarrass both of ustoday.
(22:39):
It was a Demis Culver paintingof a stylized New Mexico
landscape, but fanciful, notreal with the Toronto CN Tower
coming out of the middle of it,and the show was called New
Mexico in Toronto.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Straightforward yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
So virtually no one came.
I did everything, you know, Igot the lights, it looked good.
I had really good art.
John Fincher was in that show,carl Johansson, richard Thompson
, anyway.
Well, william Louis Dreyfusbought the big Ellen Gramps and
(23:30):
became a friend and so that itdidn't get me out of debt I mean
the show did not I lost money.
But when I got back all theartists put that show on their
(23:50):
resume and Larry Bell wasconnected with this impressive
group from California who wantedto come to Santa Fe and I
didn't have a gallery.
That was the other part.
I said the show was part, youknow, sponsored by or presented
(24:14):
by Linda Durham Gallery backthen and a few people.
I'm sorry this is such a longstory.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
No, it's fantastic If people could see my face.
My jaw is like in my lap.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
A few people did like wander from down below where
there were all these fancy shops, got off on the wrong floor of
the elevator and wandered in.
And I remember one personsaying oh, we've been to your
gallery, we love your gallery,we love Santa Fe.
And I didn't tell them therewas no gallery.
(24:50):
And then another beautifulcouple came in and said where
exactly is your gallery?
We're going to be in Santa Fein July and I gave them my home
address.
Well, that's thinking on yourfeet.
I turned my when I got back.
(25:10):
Well, I, the house we had I wasstill married was the De La
Pena house.
It's a magnificent house.
It's been ruined now by, if Imay say, jerry Pevers and
subsequent people who took anauthentic New Mexico treasure
(25:34):
and de-treasurized it, or anyway, I don't know.
So I turned a couple of roomsof the house into a gallery and
the collectors that Larry Belltold me about were from SICA,
the Society for the Advancement,no, the Society for the
(25:58):
Encouragement of ContemporaryArt.
And those people came to myhouse and the art was there.
And one of the people saidwould you think of doing a show
like you did in Toronto, in theBay Area?
So that was my second show andone of the big companies in the
(26:24):
Bay Area paid for that show, soit broke even.
And then these people from theScottish Arts Council wandered
through.
They were on a holiday acrossAmerica, wandering through New
Mexico, and they liked NewMexico and they thought where
(26:48):
could we see art?
And they asked somebody attheir hotel, a concierge, and
she said, well, linda Durham hasa gallery.
And they came to my house wehad just then I was buying the
(27:09):
house on 400 Canyon Road and Iwas just opening that and so
we're condensing the timeline alittle bit, otherwise he'll be
here until August.
And so they came and we talkedand we had a conversation about
(27:31):
how New Mexico and Scotland theart scenes had something in
common, because they drew reallytalented people, they were a
magnet for creative individuals,but a little too far from the
knowledge centers, but a littletoo far from the knowledge
(27:56):
centers.
And so one of the two peoplewas the head of the Scottish
Arts Council and we planned ashow I can show you a catalog
and they paid for everything andthis show was called New New
Mexico and I had Luis JimenezLarry Bell was in that Susan
(28:21):
Rollin, who's not around anymore.
I still have two GeorgiaO'Keeffe's.
Who else was in that show?
Speaker 1 (28:34):
it was a condensed show but it was elegant and they
paid for everything and itcoincided with the Fringe
Festival in Edinburgh and thenthe show went to another venue
in Scotland and it just unfoldedand well, I just want to
(29:03):
interject for a second, becauseyou know the the purpose of this
podcast was to, you know, givepeople a sense of you know how
do you access the creative field, how do you bring something
through you, and every storythat you're telling is a
beautiful illustration of that.
So we can keep going untilAugust, because that's the whole
(29:24):
idea here, right.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
And then you can think tomorrow and say let's
just talk about one little thing.
I don't know what you want todo, but you know like I'm
thrilled with my life, and wementioned this a little earlier.
(29:47):
You know, you embrace a projector a style or an idea and you
run with it, you gallop with it,you fall on your face with it
and it may end, but it's worthyof staying alive.
(30:12):
And you know, I wrote a littlebit about it in my last memoir,
and you know, and then yourealize you think that story, I
(30:33):
think those 33 years were as bigas the world.
But then, as you look, as timegoes by, as other things happen,
as you read, live and continue,read, live and continue.
(30:54):
It was my world, but it's onlytiny.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
You know, and it can disappear.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
That's why it'd be nice to be preserved forever in
a podcast, assuming thetechnology doesn't go the way of
Betamax, you know, or somethinglike that.
Right right set out on thisproject was how wonderful would
it be to have a collection oftoday, of new new mexico artist
(31:36):
voices and I didn't keep itlimited to painting, so I've
done dancers and writers andmusicians, and.
But it's just sometime in atime capsule somewhere there
will be this tiny little bubbleof what was happening in this
slice of time.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
In the voice of the people who were carrying it yeah
, yeah, yeah, trudgingly, orhowever, yeah, no, because I
believe this very deeply.
New Mexico is a magnet for thecreative individual and maybe
(32:18):
it's northern New Mexico, it'sbeyond this area, and they don't
have it in other states.
I could name, okay, nebraska,you know it's not there, it's
(32:39):
not in any of the other states.
The way it is in New Mexicoit's in the dirt and the people
are drawn to the dirt, or themountains, or the clouds, or the
sky, or the multiculturalpersonality in a manageable size
(33:01):
.
Yeah, new York is waymulticultural and it's its own
thing.
New Mexico is.
You know it's an amazing placeand in my experience, you look
around, you see who made a homehere, who made a painting here,
(33:28):
who created a fashion world here.
You know it's an amazing place.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yeah, it is the origin of a lot of creativity,
for sure.
And what drew you to Santa Feoriginally?
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Because I happen to know that you.
I was happy in New York and Imet my second husband.
I had like a starter marriageat 19 that didn't last very long
.
And then I met this amazing man,bart Durham amazing man, bart
(34:19):
Durham, and he had done hisundergraduate work and some
graduate work in New Mexico,although he was from Manhasset
and we fell in love and hisdream was to move to New Mexico,
whereas my dream was to becomefamous I didn't know how, you
(34:39):
know, like a famous what, linda,you know?
An actor, a politician, youknow what?
Speaker 1 (35:03):
But love really overtook me in an adventure, the
sense that, yeah, like maybethere's theater in new mexico, I
don't that other veryinteresting chapter of your life
involving bunny ears.
Let's just say that.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Well, I moved to New Mexico in 1966.
I moved to New York in 1962.
And that was when the bunnyyears, the bunny years.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
And did you think that maybe your path to fame
would be through the bunny years?
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Well, when I moved, there I thought, you know, I'll
just try out for something.
They'll realize my talent andyou know, broadway will say at
last she's here.
So yeah, it didn't happen likethat.
(36:10):
I actually moved to New York.
I was 19 during the greatnewspaper strike.
Strikes and you have something Ijust realized that those were
two games, yeah, and what wasstrike three, we'll get there.
And what was strike three,we'll get there.
(36:31):
And so I was trying to.
I was naive but I thought, youknow, I need to audition for a
part.
And you know, I had greataccolades from my college years
in the theater and I worked inthe professional theater from
(36:53):
the time I was 13, all throughhigh school.
So I thought, you know, butthere was a newspaper strike.
So I went around to employmentagencies, employment agencies,
and I said, you know, I'm anactor, I'm looking for a theater
(37:17):
job, a gig.
And this one guy said you know,they're hiring people at the
Playboy Club.
But I had never heard of thePlayboy Club and but he said you
know they're hiring, and hegave me an address where they
were.
And so I I went and I filledout this elaborate application
(37:48):
and then I got.
Then they said, okay, they werehaving these mass calls.
You had to show up in a leotardor a bathing suit and your
appointment is at 1.20 onThursday.
So I showed up in a leotard anda million and a million young
(38:14):
girls, young women, and I had myinterview and it wasn't Hugh
Hefner, but it was one of thebig Playboy executives, tony
Roma.
Later, I think he had a youknow a series of Italian
(38:35):
restaurants I'm not sure, but hewas Tony Roma and I had this
leotard on with three buttons onit because I had used it when I
was in high school where I wasvoted most talented and Tony
(38:57):
Roma said I like your buttons.
Of course I also had abeautiful figure.
So I got the call back and Igot a job.
So out of the 15,000 women theypicked 80 and I was one of them
(39:20):
, and then I became the head ofthe training department.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
So magic has followed you Everywhere, and all I can
think of is all the world's astage and you just keep taking
on new parts.
Yeah, that's it.
And then you play them to thehilt yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Right, and if it's not real, make it up Right,
improvise.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Make it real, yeah, yeah.
So how much of the chutzpah orwhatever you would call it
confidence that you developed tostart a gallery, to leave the
gallery business, to startwriting your memoir, etc.
Do you think that the genesisof that was in being a bunny, or
(40:07):
was it earlier than that?
Or was it earlier than that?
Speaker 2 (40:11):
I'm not sure I know what you mean, but starting the
gallery was.
You know it seemed like an ideatoo big to handle, but I knew
some of the beginning things.
I knew artists and I had workedfor Forrest.
And working for Forrest Ilearned a lot about what not to
(40:36):
do and what to do.
And I started it, as you know,in my house in those early shows
.
And then that building onCanyon Road came on the market
and in an instant I thought thatwould be a great location for a
(41:02):
gallery.
By then we were selling ourhouse to Jerry Peters.
It was a very bad deal.
We were also Bart and I weregetting divorced.
We split everything.
I got $25,000, my second$25,000.
(41:24):
And I made that a down payment.
And there was somebody elsealso bidding for that place.
It was $200,000.
And Forrest Fenn knew theprevious owners and I went to
(41:45):
him and I said I really wantthis.
And he talked to the people andthey accepted my offer.
Wow, this.
And he talked to the people andthey accepted my offer and so I
just moved in and then peoplecame along.
(42:09):
I had met people.
I hired somebody to be adirector Magic, now I can't
think of you know.
Somebody said well, if you hadto put the $25,000 down, how did
you do that?
I don't know Right, I don'tremember the money things.
I have never had any money formore than you know 10 minutes.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Well, it seems like you've got this kind of
mechanism where it just flowsthrough you.
It's part of the whole magic.
Gone to New York City andwalked into a very unique
position of being a bunny aseasily as you walked into being
a gallerist, and you know eachstep along the way.
(42:59):
You wore the buttons, you gotthe 25 grand.
I mean, it sort of sounds likethat's just Linda Durham's
special sauce.
I really think that.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
I don't think that.
That's just the way LindaDurham made it through.
I think you can tap into magic.
And what is it?
What enables you to tap intomagic?
You know Willing to risk.
You know Imagination.
(43:32):
You know imagination.
You know imagination, justenvision it and walk towards it
and it sounds naive.
And yes, that's part of it.
You know the naivete doesn'ttell you well, you can't do that
.
You don't actually have thecredentials.
(43:55):
Yeah, it takes.
You need much more money.
You don't know the art.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
You don't know anything.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
You don't know anything.
When I was doing the very firstshow and I knew some artists
and I said you know I'm going todo a show and will you be in it
?
And they said yes.
And then Paul Sarkissian saidwell, are you going to have Ken
Price in your show?
(44:27):
And I said well, who's KenPrice?
And he said you don't know whoKen Price is.
No, but I'm going to find out.
I got his phone number and Icalled him and I said Mr Price,
(44:49):
this is Linda Durham.
I'm curating an exhibition ofcontemporary New Mexico artists
in Toronto and Paul Sarkissiangave me your name and I would
like to come and talk to youabout it.
So he invited me.
I got there.
You know he had all his.
(45:12):
It was when he was puttingtogether Happy I can't remember
the name of the show.
It's the LA Museum, an LAMuseum, happy's Curio Theme.
And I looked around at thisweird work.
I had never seen his workbefore.
(45:33):
I didn't get it, I didn'tunderstand it and he said you
know, all of this is going tothe show, but in California.
But you can take this.
And he pointed in a plinth witha covering of a plexiglass box.
(45:54):
There was this little standlike a purple velvet stand, and
in it was something like a giantpeanut resting on the ceramic
peanut.
And I said, because you know, Ijust learned it's Ken Price I
(46:18):
said, oh, that would be perfect,I would love to take that.
And so I had this consignmentthings with like and we with
duplicate paper.
What do you call that?
(46:38):
Yeah, so he filled everythingout.
I said this would be great andI said you know, and how much is
this?
And he said you can sell it fornine.
And I said that would be greatand I wrote down 900.
So he signed it and I took itand we arranged, I picked it up,
(47:01):
but well, I didn't pick it up.
Then I went home and I went toa tea party.
Rosalind Constable was a friendof mine and she was an old
woman not as old as I am now,but you know she was old and she
had been the avant-garde artsreporter for Time Life and she
(47:25):
was friends with all kinds ofgreat people.
And I told her that I had justspoken to Ken Price and he had
given me a piece and she said,oh, that's wonderful, she's from
England.
You know, I saw Ken Price notlong ago, a little teacup and I
(47:47):
was going to buy it but it wasnine thousand dollars, and well,
I didn't buy it and I, you knowto buy it, but it was $9,000,
and well, I didn't buy it.
And you know I thought she said$9,000, $9,000.
, you didn't pardon thisconversation.
So that afternoon I called Kenback and I said you know, excuse
me, I'm just looking over myconsignment forms, me, I'm just
(48:09):
looking over my consignmentforms.
Did I inadvertently leave azero off your consignment thing?
He said, let me look.
He said, yeah, you did.
And I said well, just pleaseaddress that.
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
What a good recovery, Holy cow.
Anyway, you know, it's justAgain magic.
I'm going to have to keepsaying it because it just keeps
showing up.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Everywhere, and sometimes just in the nick of
time, usually just in the nickof time, and everything leads to
everything, and until itdoesn't, until it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
Well, what's?
Speaker 2 (48:55):
your next magic trick ?
Mine, you know well,rediscovering.
You know who I am if I don'thave all that you know.
And what is powerful,significant, exciting when
(49:21):
you're 82?
I'm 82 and a half, 82 and ahalf, 82 and a half, and I'm
discovering that you know.
I hope you're as lucky as I amand you get here and beyond,
because it's remarkable and Ican begin to look at things
(49:48):
differently and rediscover somuch about myself, about what
did and didn't happen, whathappens next, because I'm really
interested.
I want to stay healthy, healthy, healthy because I want to know
what happens next.
(50:09):
But all during those years, myunder life was a life of
investigating the world and thepeople in the world.
So you've been driven by wonderfrom the beginning.
I made a promise to myself whenI was really quite young that
(50:36):
every year I would go somewhereforeign and exotic and I would
never say that I didn't have thetime or the money, because I
knew that would always be true,because I knew that would always
be true, that you know.
But so almost everywhere I'veever gone.
(50:58):
Well, that's not true, becauseas time went on, you know not
that many years ago I took theTrans-Siberian Railway from
Moscow to Vladivostok and mylove, who came into my life also
(51:25):
in the nick of time, 12 yearsago, sponsored me for that trip.
And for that trip I thought I'mgoing to meet people, I'm going
to be gone for six weeks I thinkfive weeks and I'm going to
(51:48):
want to have a gift or somethingto give them and I'm only
taking one small suitcase.
So on Facebook and you mightknow about this I said I'm doing
this trip.
Would any of my artist friendsbe willing to give me a small
(52:10):
original work of art, awatercolor, a drawing no bigger
than a postcard, that I couldtake to give to people I meet on
my trip?
You know, I thought if I getlike 10 things, you know, that
would be great.
(52:30):
I got over 100.
And so I did the catalog.
I'll give you one, oh.
God, I would love that, of thatexperience, pictures of a lot of
the art that people gave me andpictures of people in Russia
(52:53):
holding a piece.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
And this is well after the Seed Project.
Oh yeah, this was right before.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
COVID oh wow, yeah, oh wow, yeah.
And here's a quote that I loveand it's deeply attributed to
Goethe.
Some couplet Whatever you cando or dream, you can begin it.
(53:22):
Boldness has genius, power andmagic in it.
Well, I should have thattattooed across my chest.
I'm not sure there would be anyroom.
Speaker 1 (53:32):
well, I should have that tattoo across my chest.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
But I already have Not sure there would be any room
.
So, yeah, so that is my life,one magic experience after
another.
And within the big magic thingare all the little ones, the
ones that happen every day, areall the little ones, the ones
(53:54):
that happen every day.
And so maybe, if I werestarting over and rewriting my
life, I would just say you knowthe magic within the magic,
that's it, and the wonder thatis just everywhere.
(54:14):
And you know, in the beginningyou don't wonder about this and
then later on you do.
You know, I never wonderedabout the planets and the
galaxies, but I live with anastronomer, among other things,
(54:38):
and it's very hard to live hereand not look up in the dark,
off-grid and not wonder and notlisten to the stories about
distances, things that like, nomatter how creative you are and
(54:59):
imaginative, you can't imaginethat it's that far and that this
represent, this tiny speck,represents something so big you
can't imagine.
And I also think something thatyou would see in a microscope
(55:22):
would be.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
Has a universe inside it.
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (55:25):
Yeah, anyway, that's an aside.
Speaker 1 (55:30):
Well, it's an aside, but you know it leaves me
totally speechless.
I mean, I feel like we could behere till August just to pick
up on you know a thread ofeverything that you've said.
But we started with whathappened to the Wonder Institute
.
Now I know it's, you've justembodied it you are the Wonder
Institute.
Speaker 2 (55:50):
I will.
You know if I had a dream oranother dream, because I am
redoing my small website.
My Wonder Institute website isnot available right now.
It exists somewhere.
I want to find it and itshouldn't die.
(56:14):
You know it shouldn't besomething like.
That was then.
This is now Because there's somuch more to it.
And you know, we did essaycontests.
I have all the postcards fromthe postcard project and it
(56:36):
would make you weep to see when.
You know, I gave thesepostcards out and I put stamps
on them because that helps youget them back, you know, and had
my the Wonder Institute addressand on the other side it just
(56:58):
said you know, I wonder, and itwas all blank.
You could fill in some of them.
The first batch said I wonderabout.
But afterwards, I wonder, andthe things people wrote and I
haven't, you know, stacked thathigh and some of them make you
(57:20):
cry, you know, and some of themare funny and some of them say,
yes, me too.
I wonder about this.
Will they ever have a?
I wonder if they'll ever have acure for cancer.
You know one that I remember soclearly.
I wonder whatever happened toJenny?
(57:45):
I miss you, jenny, love Mom.
I'm a sensitive person.
Speaker 1 (57:56):
Well, I mean, it's so deeply touching and I think
we're all so starved for wonderand awe, and somebody just sent
that to me.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:04):
You know, not to me, to the Wonder Institute.
And people drew.
You know I could make a book ofthose scars, but Well, you have
to stick around for quite a fewmore years because you've got a
lot of work to do.
Speaker 1 (58:20):
I do.
I've got a lot.
Speaker 2 (58:21):
Yeah, so you know I built a chapel.
That was a project to just likewhat.
We'll go out and see it later.
Speaker 1 (58:33):
Well, I saw the progress as I followed you on
social media and it'll be aprivilege to see it, but really,
I thought when you were cominghere, what are we going to talk
about?
Speaker 2 (58:48):
I thought we would be talking about the magnificent
artists who trusted me todisplay their work and by their
work, through their work, I hadlike uncountable wonders and
(59:16):
experiences of being with theirwork, seeing people respond to
it, taking it to Chicago andMiami and LA and New York and
Spain and Germany.
And you know, in Germany, Imean no, in Spain, at the big
(59:42):
Arco Fair.
At the big Arco Fair, the kingof Spain walked through my booth
and saw the art, you know, andother people and wondrous people
, you know.
(01:00:03):
That's the same thing Like howdid I know to show this work and
that work, a whole lot, youknow.
Going back to the beginningdays, I didn't know anything but
I had a real sense of who didand I listened to them and
(01:00:27):
mainly the people who knewsomething, something that could
help me choose and do Artistseverything.
The most important informationI ever got about living a life
(01:00:49):
during those years, informationcame from artists how to look,
how to see, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
Well, that's exactly.
The purpose of this project isto bring that into living rooms
across the world, because thoseinsights are so valuable.
Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
I'm looking at that Erica Wanamaker.
It was David Anderson, anotherartist, who said you ought to
look at Erica Wanamaker's work,and it was Alan Graham who said
you should look at RichardHogan's work.
(01:01:32):
And it was Richard Hogan whosaid you should look at Lucy
Mackey's work.
And it went like that.
It was Gene Newman who said youknow, do you know, john Connell
?
It unfolded like that andeventually I could see, not what
(01:01:59):
they saw necessarily, but whatI could see.
I could see, and I don't knowhow it happened, but for me
there came a time when I couldlook at something and say
there's something in here that'smuch bigger than my opinion.
(01:02:22):
But it ends up seeming like myopinion if I hang it on the wall
of my opinion.
But it ends up seeming like myopinion if I hang it on the wall
of my gallery.
But there's something here, Iwant to be around it, I want to.
Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
Well, when you're an open vessel for the energy that
is being expressed, the vehiclemight be an artist over there,
but they're tapping into thatfield and all you're doing is
being sort of a radio stationtuning it in.
What is that?
Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
field, you know, and thank you, Thank you for letting
me play in the field, yeah,really.
And then you know, once you'relooking at magnificent work,
once you're talking with theperson who manifested it, you
(01:03:19):
know it just fills you.
You know I am filled not, Iwould say, on one day, filled to
overflowing, but the flow goeson.
It, you know it will never beempty.
(01:03:39):
Certain things change, certainthings.
Now I like, for a differentreason, I collect.
I still collect work when I canNot necessarily work.
Oh, this would have been perfectin my gallery.
Or oh, yeah, this is just whatthe gallery would have shown,
(01:04:05):
but something in it.
And sometimes it's like I knowhow sincere this artist is.
I know this, you know, camefrom a really thoughtful, deep,
spiritual, intellectual, also,you know, extremely smart place
(01:04:30):
and I want to support it.
If I had money, you know, Iwould still be buying a whole
lot, collecting, giving away.
You know, because it's stillout there, it's harder to find.
For me it's still out there,it's harder to find.
For me it's a little harder tofind now, partly because, well,
(01:04:55):
there's so, there's so much outthere now and there are so many
people who have done eitherdecided to be an artist or open
a gallery or begin to collectand you know, and not all of it,
(01:05:22):
I think it's wonderful todecide to be an artist.
Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
Well, if I may say one of the things that you know,
you have matured and developedsuch a sophisticated attunement
to authentic work that forsomebody to connect with you
they have to be deeply in theirpractice.
Speaker 2 (01:05:48):
And that term authentic, you know, and so we
all have it, I think.
I mean we don't all display itor notice it or realize that we
have it, you know, but that'sjust it.
You know, the great artists, inmy opinion, are doing their
(01:06:09):
authentic work, and so you getthese little feelers that go out
.
Yeah, maybe I don't like it,but it's authentic, right, right
.
Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
And I think that once we attune to authenticity, we
can see it not just in the artworld.
We see it in a doctor, in agardener, in a you know name.
Insert profession here ornon-profession In the poem.
Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:06:40):
Yeah.
So I think that that's thewonder and the mystery and the
pondering is that you know whatis our authentic life?
If that was the question thatis sort of at the heart of what
you have lived your life.
What I'm trying to do is, youknow, how do we find that
(01:07:00):
expression of our authenticselves?
Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
And you've certainly given us lots of places and you
go through all different thingsand you wander here and you open
this door and you read thatbook and you go here and you
talk to whomever and it allmatters, it all adds to it If,
in fact, you are open to askingyourself that question, the
(01:07:24):
basic question.
You know like what more am I?
You know, who am I?
It sounds so trite, butfiguring it out, gives us the
whole journey.
Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
Yeah, that's perfect.
I'm going to end it there.
Well, thanks for joining ustoday.
Please like and follow us onartstormingorg, where you'll
find a list of our shows, atranscript of this episode with
links to the guest page, as wellas our other projects.
Artstorming is brought to youand supported by Artbridge and
(01:08:01):
listeners like you.
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