March 23, 2025 • 50 mins
Matthew Chase Daniel shares the journey of Axle Contemporary, a mobile art gallery housed in a renovated 1970s delivery truck that brings artistic experiences directly to communities across the Southwest. For fifteen years, this innovative platform has broken down barriers between high art and everyday people by parking outside grocery stores, appearing at flea markets, and traveling to rural areas typically overlooked by traditional galleries.
Music for ArtStorming the City Different was written and performed by John Cruikshank.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Ever wonder what makes really creative people
tick?
Where do their ideas come from?
What keeps them energized?
What kinds of things get intheir way?
Is their life really as muchfun as it looks from the outside
?
Hello, I'm your host, liliPierpont, and this is
ArtStorming, a podcast about hownew ideas come to life and
become paintings, sculptures,plays or poems, performances or
(00:25):
collections.
Each episode, I'll chat with aguest from the arts community
and explore how the mostcreative among us stare down a
blank canvas or reach into thevoid and create something new.
Today, I'll be art-storming withMatthew Chase Daniel, and it
almost happened by accident.
(00:46):
I had Matthew on my list ofpotential guests, but what
sealed the deal and made theinterview actually happen when
it did is a perfect Santa Festory.
Now, santa Fe is big enoughthat you can go for years
without seeing someone you knowquite well, even when you're in
the same general circles.
And maybe it's because Santa Feart Circle is so huge, or maybe
(01:08):
the people I know are just ondifferent schedules and they're
pulling into Trader Joe's justas I'm pulling out.
But today was one of thosesmall world Santa Fe encounters.
I was picking up a prescription.
The line was really long and Inoticed that Matthew was several
people ahead of me.
Now, I wasn't trying to jump inline or anything, but the point
is there was plenty of time tosay hello.
(01:30):
I usually see Matthew at events,and it's often across the room,
and he's often engaged with avisitor to his gallery, which
you'll hear about shortly, so Irarely get a chance to chat with
him in depth.
Anyway, we started the usualcatch-up banter and then I
remembered that I had heard orseen that he had a radio show,
and I asked him if that wasstill going Well.
(01:51):
The time passed very quickly,we each had our prescriptions
and walked our conversation outto the parking lot.
Naturally, I asked him if he'dconsider being a guest on
ArtStorming and he said sure.
And when we started to do thecalendar thing, he said, well,
I'm free now.
And I said now well, I guessI'm actually free now too.
So this is what that now turnedinto.
(02:12):
So I'm here with Matthew, chaseDaniel.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Everyone's got a podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
now they say it's a new thing.
So as an introduction I'll justsay that the last time you were
here at this house probablysitting in that chair- we were
doing another project together,which was through Axel, which
I'm going to make you talk about.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
And it was with an artist, stephen Osher, and we
created this like trippy thinginside.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, it was called Iris and you went in through the
back and there was a tiny roommade out of mirrors with this
ball, glowing ball in the centerthat flashed incredibly bright
light in different colors.
So you get closed up in there Acomponent to it, where the
floor was vibrating.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
So it's a sensory experience and so the people had
a two minute experience.
We stopped experience and itwould do so that people had a
two minute experience.
We strapped.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
They had to sign a release in case they died in
there and we monitored theirbrain activity.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
And then we had this little what do you call it?
What did I call it?
Like a little breakout session.
Afterwards, I had used theseblow up chairs when we were in
the rail yard.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Oh yeah, that was wonderful and a little space
there and talked about theexperience.
Yeah, and the flashing lightexperience.
It's sort of like a psychedelicexperience and sort of like a
meditative experience.
It really changes your sort ofpsychological reality for a
little while and maybe for along time, and Stephen continued
to do research and work withthat sort of stuff um he and I
(03:47):
work together.
Um, the lena wall is a thing Icurate on the corner of lena
street and second street, whichis where steven's studio is, so,
um, so we were involved in thatbecause he's engaged in that
and very supportive of that.
When we have opening events andartist talks and stuff that all
happens in his studio.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Which is a great space.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah, which used to be Cloud Cliff Cafe restaurant
the bakery is still in the back,but the front, what used to be
where people would sit and eat,which my wife Julie worked in
when we first moved here 35years ago, is now Steven's
studio, and Stephen has a showup now at G2 Gallery on Chipsy
(04:31):
Alley on Kenyon Road.
Yeah, but it's up to the middleof this month, middle of
February.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Check it out, me too.
I just want to insert here,because it's just so much fun,
that the way this is evenhappening is that we were
standing in line at Walgreenswaiting for prescriptions and we
bumped into each other, andthat's the cool thing about
Santa Fe is, you know, you canjust be going about your day and
these, this, this wonderfuloverlap of people, all come
(04:58):
together and we all actuallylive here in addition to doing
all our various artisticendeavors.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Pedantic things like go pick up prescriptions at
Walgreens.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
And then we get something spontaneous like this
to happen.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
And they did it fast for me at Walgreens.
They didn't have it filled andthey said, oh, you have to come
back in four hours.
And I said can't you just do itnow?
And five minutes later it'sdone.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I see Small town.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Ho, small town, not know is a mobile art space
gallery in an old 1970 aluminumdelivery truck which has raised
ceilings and lighting andwindows, and my friend jerry
wellman and I have been runningthat since 2010, so that's 14th.
We're in our 15th year, I guess.
And uh, we mobile gallery.
It's a mobile gallery.
Um, sometimes we have likegroup shows, mostly in in the
summer, works on the wall, worksfor sale around different
(06:10):
themes.
Sometimes we have installationart.
There's nothing for sale.
You just look in the back.
Those are more in the coldweather so we're not sitting in
there.
During COVID shutdown westarted doing printed
wheat-pasted art on the exterior, so it was a COVID-safe thing.
People could walk by or driveby.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Like a la JR.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yeah, or any wheat-paste street art kind of
thing.
So each artist who does itdesigns work to use the space.
It's usually not just like arectangle of print of a painting
or a photograph stuck on theoutside.
It's on all four sides andbetween the windows and on the
doors and wrapped it's a wholewrap thing and we print those
(06:57):
and glue those up.
The artist just does the designwork.
So we did that during COVID in2020, 2021, but we really liked
it so we keep doing that.
So those are sort of our threethings the outside broadsides
work, the installation work andthen the group shows inside.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
And that's a nonprofit organization.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yeah, we run it.
There's actually twoorganizational structures
there's an LLC that does theday-to-day operations and
there's a nonprofit that doesthe grant writing and the
fundraising and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
You often park in a central location at the rail
yard or something, but you cantake it around to various
different sites, so it'sgenuinely mobile.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
It's very mobile.
Yeah, and it's right.
So if there's an exciting eventhappening we can be there, if
we're invited or if we want tobe there.
And then other times we'reoutside a coffee shop or grocery
store or on the plaza or onCanyon Road, all over town, down
by the Genevieve Chavezswimming pool, and sometimes we
(08:05):
take it out of town.
So last year, in 24, we did twobig projects.
One was on the Navajo Nationand we were in Utah, Arizona and
New Mexico during the month ofJune going to different places
with Diné artist Rafael Begayand that was sort of a social
engagement interactive projectand there was photography on the
(08:27):
outside and on the inside andhe was with us the whole way.
And then there was more photoson A-frames, sort of like
realtor A-frame signs outside,and we were at flea markets and
national parks and art eventsand different things all around
the nationwhich was great.
And then in the fall end ofAugust, september, beginning of
(08:48):
October, we did the finalportion of our traveling
portrait thing, where the insideof the gallery is set up as a
portrait studio and we takeportraits of people and print
them right there, give them outfor free to the people and then
also glue copies on the outsideof the truck.
So we've, during the last 12years we've traveled all around
(09:10):
New Mexico.
Each every two years adifferent area for a month or
two, take pictures of the peoplein that area.
So this last one was insoutheastern and south central
New Mexico.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
What I love so much about what you do is that it
really is.
Has you can see the directcommunity impact.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
In a place where so many arts organizations can be
accused of being somewhatelitist, and that you know being
supported by donors who thenbecome their audience, you know
you guys really are, have a hugeand broad reach and you're
bringing artwork to attentionthat might otherwise get
(09:52):
overlooked, so you're doing ahuge community service, Thank
you.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, I think a lot of our larger art organizations
really want to do that communityengagement and they're a little
stuck because there isculturally.
It's a little difficult to getpeople to show up in your fancy
museum or gallery and if we justgo park outside the grocery
(10:18):
store where people are gettinggroceries, they might just peek
in the back and maybe they seeit for two seconds and they get
a little hit of something that'sinteresting.
But maybe they're more engagedand they come and talk to one of
us and we spend an hour havinga conversation and they take
more time looking and so it's atricky, useful way of getting
(10:40):
people engaged.
And we didn't necessarily havea big mission or plan.
It sort of evolved that way Forus.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
We started at thinking it was kind of a silly,
fun idea and let's just do itBecause, without thinking it,
that's the best way for thingsto emerge, because then you
don't really have this wholeprojected idea of what it's
supposed to be like, whateverright, we didn't have a business
plan, we didn't have a bigmission, um, we didn't actually
(11:10):
think it was a good idea.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
And I think that's a important thing for, you know,
young people in the arts, um,and in all sorts of business is,
if you have an idea that soundsreally stupid, maybe there's a
grain of something really greatin it.
Um, because it's hard to findsomething that hasn't been
overdone.
You look on the internet.
Now you want to start a mobileart gallery.
(11:32):
There's probably hundreds outthere, even though you've never
heard of it.
You thought you invented it.
So anything you think of that'snot the sort of thing that
other people are already doingmight be worth exploring.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Well, how did you and Jerry come to the idea of it in
the first place?
So you had to get the truck.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
It had to be a little bit thought through.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah Well, we're both working artists and I was
working on a series of portraitsof artists working in their
studios series of portraits ofartists working in their studios
and so I spent a few hours withhim while he was making some
drawings, taking pictures of him, and we started talking about
(12:18):
this.
I live out on Las Vegas Highwaya little bit and there where
they sell firewood and rocks onthe side, there was this 1970
International Harvester, bigflatbed truck, yellow and red,
and I just thought it was themost beautiful thing and I
wanted it.
For no reason I'm not a personwho generally wants to collect a
lot of things, but I wanted it.
(12:39):
So I was telling Jerry about itand he had a little travel
trailer and he was thinking ofhanging some little small works
of his and parking it somewhere.
So he was like, oh, what if weopened an art gallery, you know,
bought this InternationalHarvester?
So we contacted the owner andit turned out it wasn't the
right truck.
(12:59):
And then we were sort of off andwe were looking at airport, um,
shuttle, bus things.
You know.
We wanted something easy towalk into and, um, not too
intimidating, and uh, so wesettled on step vans cause they
have the interior stairs there.
It's not too high to get in.
Like a flat bed all of that.
And uh, then we looked aroundand we found the truck for sale
(13:23):
on Craigslist in ColoradoSprings and brought it home and
spent a couple months liftingthe roof and building the walls
inside and then we had a showand people loved it and then we
had another show.
Now it's been about 200 shows.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
That's so amazing.
Did you show your?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
work.
We have shown some of our works, but it's never been, I think,
that first show.
Maybe we both had work, andthen also Paula Castillo and
Eliza Naranjo-Morris I think itwas maybe the four of us.
It might have been more youshowed Paula's work because
that's pretty big Paula's workwere drawings or digital
(14:04):
drawings.
Big Apollo's work were drawingsor digital drawings.
Sort of related to, but notexactly the same as her
sculpture.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Wow, and so you've been here long enough that
you've cultivated all theserelationships with artists and
as an artist yourself.
Were you ever a showing artist?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
here in Santa Fe.
I show in a gallery mostly inLos Angeles Craig Kroll Gallery
in Santa Monica but I have shownhere.
Victoria Price used to show mywork and Evo Gallery used to
show my work, and then I've hadpieces in other shows over the
years.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Which side do you like?
Being on better, being on thecreative?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
side, or the promot, the promoter, promoter side
no-transcript, how to say.
I wasn't that motivated to makemore objects to put out in the
world, partly because it wasisolation and just like I don't
need to make this for who, forwhat, but partly it was like a
(15:03):
huge buying spree, becausepeople were cooped up.
Yeah, and a lot of people arelike oh my God, I can just stay
home and make work all the time.
That's great.
But for me it was the opposite.
I was like I don't need to makeanything.
And it never came back.
It used to be.
I was sort of driven to it.
I had to go out in my studioand go outside and be constantly
putting things together, likegoing on a vacation and lying on
(15:25):
the beach in the sun was theworst thing I could imagine.
So I'd go on a beach vacationwith family or whatever and I'd
bring some pliers and some wireand some needle and thread and
find things and put themtogether and make things, you
know, while I was there.
So I have made things since thattime, but less driven to and
(15:46):
more interested in sort of whatI do at Actel and through the
other things I'm involved inpromoting and helping other
people get their work out in theworld, because there are tons
of people out there who are veryexcited to make things all the
time.
Yeah, but they don'tnecessarily know or everyone
(16:06):
always needs help getting it outbetter and more.
So I do my podcast radio showon KTRC Coffee and Culture and I
do curate the Lena Wall on 2ndStreet and Lena Street and I'm
on the Rail Yard Art Committeechoosing art, helping choose art
for the Rail Yard Park.
(16:28):
So stuff like that isgratifying.
It's gratifying in a differentway, but it feels like a nice
service to the community in away.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
I think a lot of what I talk to about when I'm
talking to the artists on thisshow is like how they access the
creative field and what thatfeels like coming through them
as the medium.
But you know, there's there's athere's a bigger component to
that which is bringing art, youknow, going into the field,
literally, of artists andbringing that out to the public.
So there's another tier of thatand it sounds to me like that's
(17:02):
really you're finding yoursatisfaction in that.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Yeah, and you know, if I go to galleries here in
Santa Fe or New York or LA orwherever, I might see a hundred
different artists work and theremight be one or two, if I'm
lucky, that really thrilled meand inspired me.
You know most of the art I see.
I'm like, oh, after.
You know, when I look at artall the time every day, most of
(17:29):
you get I get a little jaded,like it's rare that something
really stands out and inspiresme, and when it does, I'm very
excited to help that.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
I can totally get that, because there's a certain,
you know, we talk about, likehow does the authenticity come
through?
And I think for me, for a lotof people, because I do see a
lot of artwork and I can bepleased by it, you know, but for
something to really kind ofslap me in the face there's,
there's some kind of struggle orsomething.
(18:02):
It doesn't have to be likeexistential struggle, but
there's, you can, I can feelthere's something in real time
happening, that's, that'sextending beyond that particular
work so yeah the energy of theartist going into the work, and
then it's still going.
It hasn't just landed.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Right, and there's something also in looking at
work where you can see things.
You've learned a certainlanguage and you can look at
stuff really quickly.
I was doing a studio visit acouple of days ago and there was
the work of an interestingartist who passed away and his
widow is trying to find home forhis big five foot by five foot
(18:42):
paintings, of which they'reabout 20.
And they were showing the womanand the other artists were
showing me the work and movingthem because they're so big and
there was one good spot to lookat them.
They were moving in and so tellme when you're ready to look at
the next one.
And they moved when I was like,okay, I'm ready for the next.
Okay, and it was like a fewseconds, like you get a great
(19:05):
hit on something and get a senseof it.
You're not necessarily sittingthere living with it.
You know that's a different wayof engaging with art, but, um,
just, I feel like I've learned alot about looking at art in
just through the practice ofdoing it, as well as through
school and talking with otherartists.
(19:26):
I went to college in liberalarts and I studied sculpture and
photography and anthropologyand ethnology Did you have a
school role as an artist, yeah.
So I finished school I was inNew York and then I moved to
Paris and finished school thereand then worked as an artist
(19:49):
right away but also workedrenovating houses and apartments
in Paris and in Nice and inBakersfield and in Boston and
here Eventually ended up here bythe time I was 25 or so so that
was soon after that and did alot of renovations and
(20:10):
historical renovations on adobehouses and redoing kitchens and
building fireplaces and stuff,just pretty much independently
what there is.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
That seems to be a connection, but, because I come
from an interior designbackground too, there's
something about likeexperiencing spaces in a
three-dimensional way,especially when you're engaging
with the, the creation of thosespaces.
That gives you a, gives onelike a three-dimensional way of
understanding the world, and Ithink it really does inform how
we look at art.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, especially at sculpture, yeah, yeah.
No, I was studying sculptureand working on houses I mean
making sculpture and working onhouses and at one point I
considered going to architectureschool.
I went and visited a bunch ofschools in California and
thought about doing that as away of sort of combining the two
, and then I realized I was muchmore interested in making art
and not, you know, working withclients figuring out what they
(21:05):
wanted, but more of a pureexperience of making what I
wanted somebody, a creative likethat, who?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
is sort of um I think summers had a great term of
compulsively creative and andsomebody who I'm calling them
the civilians of the world, youknow, who are just kind of they
can appreciate it, but theydon't have that like drug.
What?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
what?
Where's that?
Oh, it's.
Uh.
Who knows, it could be somedysfunction, psychological
dysfunction, of like hunger insomething yeah it's the same.
You know we're making all thetime, or we're eating all the
time or having sex all the time,or whatever the function
dysfunction is that drives us totry and work something out.
You know, some people go topsychotherapy and that's really
(21:49):
meaningful to them and I've donesome of that and it's been
great.
But I work a lot out.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
It feels like through the, through the making and
just that the creatives have inmy observation and my own honest
, personal experience is thatyou know, it becomes a lot
easier to invent your day likeif you're used to creating from
nothing and you're not afraid ofmaking mistakes.
You can mistakes, you canproblem, solve the little stupid
(22:17):
things of the day a little biteasier, because things don't
have the same weight.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
You're used to throwing something at a canvas
and if it doesn't work, you doit another way.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
And I feel like that kind of emboldens people I mean
creatives.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah, the last few months, you know Axel had our
last show was maybe thebeginning of december and we
don't have something else untilbeginning of march, and that
usually takes a lot of my time.
We usually don't take that muchtime off in the winter, and so
I've been finding myself bored alittle bit, which is very
unusual for me and just likewaking up in the morning and
(22:52):
like I don't know, I'll check myemail, I'll look at social
media, whatever.
Prescription and do a podcastRight, and it's a little unusual
and difficult.
But I'm also sort of trying torelax into that boredom and
allow that to be the sort of letsomething percolate to the top
(23:15):
in a way that I don't when I'msuper busy, just like getting
the next grant in or writing thenext press release, or painting
the next wall, or driving tothe next town or whatever for
the other work I do.
And so I think you know, I feelprivileged that I have the time
(23:36):
to be bored and that I don'thave a nine to five job these
days and I can wake up and feelbored.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Well, I mean, you know, nine to five.
I mean, I'm sure the work youdo exceeds the nine to five
bracket.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Yeah, it's more than 40 hours, it's all.
Yeah, all I do.
Yeah, more than 40 hours, it'sall.
Yeah, all I do, yeah, andrecently there's a bunch of
pinyon trees that have diedaround where I live and so I've
been cutting them and trimmingthem a little and flipping them
upside down and peeling all thebark off of them and putting
(24:11):
them in the landscape.
It's odd, it's compelling to me.
I'm not sure you know, I don'thave a great explanation for why
it's interesting, but it'sinteresting and so Is it because
you're engaging with a naturalmaterial which is different from
your normal medium or Well,I've cut a lot of trees for
firewood, so it sort of grew outof that.
(24:31):
It was like a dead tree that Iwanted to come down because I
didn't want it to fall on afence or whatever.
So I was cutting it down andthen I was like, oh, what if it
was the other way?
And so maybe don't cut it upfirst.
And then the bark beetles, youknow, make it, so the bark is
loose.
So then I would just, with alittle hatchet, taking off the
(24:52):
bark and cleaning it, and thenit's like these beautiful
natural forms.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
and then it's like, okay, so I'll haul one, you know
, drag one behind my truck up tothis little meadow space, and
yeah, I mean, I think I, I thinkthose of us who sort of traffic
in the creative field forgetthat you know it's, it's, it's
not a common thing to do whenyou're out like chopping wood
for firewood and then all of asudden be deep ensconced enough
in the project that you justthink to turn that, flip the
(25:17):
thing over.
And then you, you know, youstrip it up its arms and
whatever you call it yeah, yeahand then all of a sudden,
something else is emerging, butthat takes a particular type of
curiosity in mind and, likeevery, every, yeah or is is is
taken for granted.
Nothing is just a normal thing.
Everything is a potential artproject.
Yeah, maybe that's just becauseI'm bored because I stopped
smoking weed and it's somethingis is taken for granted.
Nothing is just a normal thing.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Everything is a potential art project yeah,
maybe that's just because I'mbored, because I stopped smoking
weed and it's something.
Um, no, I think, um, yeah, Ithink it's an openness to think
about that.
I don't really believe that,like creative people, artists,
people are like some specialbreed that other people aren't.
I think it's just a choice ofhow to engage and how to look,
(25:59):
and taking that time Like you'renot just there cutting the wood
because you need the wood.
You're cutting the wood becauseyou need the wood to heat the
house, but you're also engagedin the physicality of it and
looking at the grain of the woodand looking at the bark and the
different kinds of wood and thebugs that ate it and what their
little grubs look like whenyou're peeling the bark and just
(26:20):
an interest, and it's aninterest in science and ecology
and art and nature and all thosethings.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
I mean, yes, we all have that capacity, and one of
the reasons I'm doing thisproject is so that we can all
remember that we all have thatcapacity, something that is
reserved for one particulargroup.
But I think it does involvedisengaging from the little
square thing that we are mostlyattached to and getting back
(26:50):
doing something that involvesengaging with something outside
of technology.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Yeah, but technology can be a way in too.
I just made a video of there'sa new installation by James
Gould called Sprickle, which isthis strange little looks like a
barn or greenery in the middleof the rail yard park, and I
spent a week on and off helpinghim install it, and while I was
doing that I shot a bunch ofvideo of him and his helpers um
(27:19):
putting it together and I justyou know it's something to
promote it on Instagram, and sothat's using my little, my
little rectangular machine in acreative way.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
And.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
I really enjoy that making, shooting video, editing
video and with social media andall that.
As much as it is a distraction,it's also a great way to put
out things like short films.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Another case in point that you know you're just one
of those animals that, no matterwhat tools in your hand, you're
using it for some kind ofcreative, it's just how you're
wired.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Right, I put in the screw helping him, and then with
the other hand, then I'm like,oh, I need to shoot more video,
you know, back and forth.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
I think it's staying busy too.
I'm I'm not great at beingstill maybe.
Well, I'm trying.
Why?
Why am I trying?
Well, like what I was sayingbefore about boredom, like, just
like, oh, you're bored, youdon't know what to do.
Don't just don't just dosomething yet on instagram and
doom scroll.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Just sit there and and stare at the wall, drink
your coffee and do you know like, and do you know, when that
moment happens, that you've beenstill enough that something
comes through?
Can you feel it happening?
Speaker 2 (28:36):
yeah, usually just like something pops up, like
that little message that's on myscreen or who knows what those
are, or I think, oh right, Ihave to call blah, blah, blah.
And then I go to find my phoneand make a call, or so often in
the morning I'll wake up and I'mlying in bed and just being
still and then all of a suddenlike oh right, I remember that
(28:57):
thing, I better do that, and Iget up and start doing that.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
So well, that's me like.
You're like it's like all partof the process, it's all part of
the creative process.
So you don't distinguishbetween random everyday shit you
gotta do and and and thecreative work.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Yeah, it's all.
Yeah, I mean bookkeeping.
Maybe it's a little different,but I've learned to enjoy that
too.
There's a satisfaction, yeah,no, there's a satisfaction when
you do this and you do that andyou figure out all the math and
you're like, okay, well, thatworks that all works brain
integration thing going, becauseI mean you know not bookkeeping
(29:34):
, uh-uh I don't know I mean Ican do it, I have to do it.
It's one of those yeah, if youhave to do it, you may as well
enjoy it.
It's like grant writing too.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
No, can't do it.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Yeah, there's a satisfaction.
Yeah, and I've done.
Yeah, I've done it for Axel andfor the Lena Wall and for
projects I'm involved in, butI've also done it for hire for
other organizations over thepast few years, and that's a lot
harder to do when you're notembedded in the organization and
(30:05):
know all the details by heartto try and write about what
someone else is doing.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Well, I mean, I guess , when you're passionate about a
project and you want to get itdone.
You know that obviously is alot of juice for right getting
it done, whatever it's going totake.
Yeah, yeah, so I totally well.
What's what's next in terms ofexciting projects that you're
cooking up?
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Well, axel has a show by Inge Hendriksen which is
sort of these biomorphic,brightly colored abstract forms
that hang from the ceiling andcome out of the walls and the
floor.
So it's an installation andthat'll be up the month of March
, maybe into the beginning ofApril, around Santa Fe, and then
(30:51):
in April and May we have workby Jameson Chase Banks and
Animkewa White Eagle, which isso it's a show about dioramas
and about this proto-dinosaurfossil which is named after
(31:11):
George O'Keefe and there arethousands of them, I think,
found up at Ghost Ranch, whichis why they named it after her
up near Abq.
And so Jameson Chase Banks hascarved in cedar a life-size
figure of this dinosaur creatureand so we're showing that.
(31:38):
And then we're going todifferent schools and places in
Abiquiu and around Santa Fe andhe's running workshops with the
kids about making their owndioramas, about different things
.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Is the dinosaur you know talking about how old Santa
Fe is?
I mean, I've recently seen thisnew information about.
You know the footprints thatwere found under white sands
Under white sands, yeah.
How old this is, and so youknow it's pre-ice age.
Yeah, We've been here.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah, well, the dinosaurs.
I don't think they're dinosaursand people mixed together up in
those fossils.
But yeah, it's about a lot ofthings I can't really say.
I'll know more once we show thework.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
And how do you decide who's next?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Well, that show.
This is the second year we'veworked with the Georgia O'Keeffe
Museum.
A few years ago they bought atruck, sort of like Axle, and
outfitted it as a travelingworkspace and it opens up and
they have tables to do projects.
It's called Art2Go G-O, likeGeorgia O'Keeffe, so we've been
(32:47):
working with them doing a mobileartist-in-residence where an
artist we together people atO'Keeffe, chic, lake Corcolis
and Beth Murphy and JerryWellman and I together choose
artists, invite them and ifthey're interested they get paid
a stipend and do a project withthe George O'Keefe mobile thing
(33:12):
for a while and then do a showin Axel.
So that's how that one cameabout.
Others people send ussubmissions.
We have an email link on ourhomepage where people can send
us proposals for installationsor to show us their art for
group shows.
So usually when we do groupshows, jerry and I come up with
(33:36):
a theme, but sometimes we haveguest curators or partner with
other organizations that weapproach or they approach us to
do a project.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
It's all very unscripted and fluid how things
come to us entity that goesbetween a significant
institution like GeorgiaO'Keeffe Museum and, you know,
hanging out in front of agrocery store to just engage
people with the arts.
And my experience in Santa Feis that a lot of the larger arts
organizations are a little bitsiloed.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
And there isn't this, you know overreach that I feel
like there could be, and whatcould we do if there was more?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Yeah, sometimes I feel like we're sewing, like
we're a little needle dragging athread and driving around and
pulling these things togetherand weaving something together.
And we adore working withGeorgia O'Keeffe or Sight Santa
Fe or the Folk Art Museum or theMuseum of Indian Arts and
Culture or countless bigcultural institutions that we've
(34:46):
worked with over the years, butalso working with things that
aren't perceived, you know,grocery stores and coffee shops
and just and being on the streetand available and accessible
and unpretentious.
So we try and break down thosebarriers and our feeling is
those organizations are reallytrying to break down those
(35:06):
barriers too.
They don't mean to be silent,it's just the nature of the
history of the museum and thecollection and the art gallery.
You know the fancy New York artgallery where I go to a gallery
in New York and Chelsea aresinging.
I walk in and there's someonebehind the desk sort of typing
(35:26):
on their computer and the wallsare all white and it's all very
clean and cold and I feelintimidated going in there.
And why would I feelintimidated?
There's nothing that shouldintimidate me, but I feel it
nonetheless.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
So there is.
Maybe it's a little bitintentional in new york to kind
of create this mystique of highart exactly, I really object to.
It's one of the reasons I gotinto the field.
That I got into is to kind ofbreak that down a little bit,
because when a 22 year old youknow kind of gives me attitude
about like what am I doing inher gallery, excuse me, yeah, I
(36:04):
have a whole thing about that.
But I'm wondering do you thinkthat it sounds like you're sort
of like a pollinator, like a beethat goes to these flower
institutions?
Do you think more pollinatingsmall organizations would be
beneficial to Santa Fe as acommunity to get even more of
those connections happening?
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Yeah, I mean, I think there are things there's little
alternative art spaces andmusic spaces, and I don't even
know what they all are, but theycome and go and graduate and
become bigger things or closedown and the people move away.
You know there's a whole rangeof things.
So I don't think I think themore of those the better.
(36:45):
But I also think it's very hardto make it work.
Like Jerry and I run Axel andwe hire an accountant to help us
file our taxes for a fewhundred dollars a year and we
pay for insurance and otherwisewe do all the work ourselves,
whether it's writing pressreleases or social media or
curation or even a lot of, youknow, changing the alternator in
(37:10):
the vehicle or whatever.
So, and both of us are older andhave had other careers and have
some money, so we don't need topay our mortgages on our houses
with the money we make fromrunning Axel, and so we're in a
privileged position to be ableto do what we do.
And if I were 25 and didn'thave other resources and tried
(37:37):
to make a go of it, I don'tthink that would be the smartest
way to go, but maybe I mean wedo, jerry and I have been doing
it a long time and he's a littleolder than I am.
We think about what Axel willbe in five years or ten years,
and how can we bring otherpeople in who can do… To carry
(37:59):
it on when we're done, or tohelp us so we can do less, or
whatever it is.
So we're always on the lookoutfor how that could be, and it's
not easy to figure out.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Have you noticed sort of the direct impact that you,
as that coordinating, you knowthat uniting thread has had on
the community, uniting threadhas had on the community?
I mean, what underservedcommunities have you really been
?
Speaker 2 (38:29):
able to feel like you've reached.
Well, we mix it up a lot, sosome of the communities we reach
are well-served communities.
They're people who like art andwho go to art galleries or who
are on the plaza or Canyon Roada lot of tourists, I think.
But then there's also peoplewho don't do that on the south
(38:49):
side of town or, you know, thewest side of town or at grocery
stores, and so it's just peopleof all walks of life,
economically and racially inevery way might come by and
racially in every way might comeby.
What's most remarkable, I think,is since we've been in Santa Fe
for so long and Santa Fe isreally an art town people aren't
(39:25):
that surprised to see art in anold truck on the side of the
road here, belen or Lordsburg orClayton or Las Vegas or you
know, we've been all over thestate of New Mexico or Monument
Valley in Utah or the fleamarket in Shiprock.
It is a surprise and people arethrilled and inspired to see
that there and reallyappreciative that we bother to
(40:00):
drive out Democratic communitiesand they might be really
conservative you know Republicanvoting communities in southern
New Mexico but all feel ingeneral and there's occasional
exceptions, but rarely everpeople are thrilled to see us
there and appreciative thatwe're there, see us there and
(40:24):
appreciate that we're there, andyou know.
So we've gradually also madeall these connections with
people in each of these littlecommunities where we've wanted
to go.
So we contact people and theyhelp us and now it's easy for us
to go back there.
So, partnering with other largeorganizations that are trying
to get their work out in theworld, it's really nice that
Axel can help do that.
(40:44):
Like, oh yeah, we can go toHobbs, we know the people down
there who will help and you know, whatever it, comes down to
relationships as much as the artthat you're actually bringing.
Yeah, the relationships allow usto get it out there, because we
can show up somewhere in sometown and park on the side of the
road and that's fine.
But if there's an article inthe local paper or everyone gets
(41:13):
an email from someone they know, or it's on.
And social media has reallyhelped too, because we can pay
for boosting of a Facebook eventin some little town, you know
in Deming or something, whereanyone who's on Facebook
endemming will see that we'regoing to be there.
And before there was socialmedia that was impossible and we
can do that for 20 bucks orsomething.
So I forget what your questionwas.
(41:36):
But yeah, who do we reach andhow do we?
Speaker 1 (41:41):
I think it's so interesting because we tend to
in in our culture, materialisticculture, tend to get so focused
on measuring our impact withdollars that are raised or
whatever.
But your perfect example, theanti-version of that, where
you're really focusing onliterally expanding your reach
and how many communities can youyou touch, how many
(42:01):
relationships can you forge?
right and I think that's areally important um uh role
model for for what organizationslike ours arts organizations
you know are about, because atthe end of the day, you know
it's, it's about reaching asmany people and letting them
know that they are important,that this is theirs too.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Yeah, yeah.
And I find that democratizing ofthe yeah, and when we have to
report for a grant and say howmany, what the numbers are,
that's very difficult because wedon't count the numbers.
And the majority of our stuffthere's nothing for sale and
there's never any fee toparticipate.
Everything's offered for freeand occasionally we have work
(42:49):
for sale and that helps supportour organization for sure, when
we sell stuff but that's not thewe don't have to sell stuff in
order to pay the rent and thestaff and all of that.
So it really frees stuff up tobe more for the community, Whose
lives you're going to touch inthe doing of that.
So it really frees stuff up tobe more for the community.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Whose lives you're going to touch in the doing of
that right?
I mean, how many young emergingartists have resulted from
being present when your truckcomes through town, and they
just happen to be in the rightplace at the right time?
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Yeah, and we've been doing it long enough.
I mean, I've run into, you know, 25 year olds who like, oh my
God, this has been my favoritething since I was a kid.
You know, I'm so excited, youknow, and it's just like, oh my
God, that's so.
Doing something for a long timereally is satisfying that way.
But the you know, your podcast,my podcast, those sort of
(43:39):
things too, are great ways ofinspiring people and getting
work out in the world in a waythat you don't know.
Just having these conversations, giving people an opportunity
to speak about their work, andnot just like their creative
work, but just like their livesand like how it fits all
together.
Like you know, we've beentalking about a little bit.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Yeah, no, I think it really is important.
Do you think can you everconceive of a situation where
you had a whole fleet of axletrucks, or would that kind?
Speaker 2 (44:09):
of space, but we didn't really want to bother
trying to figure that out.
But anyone who asks us, we'vehad people say can I pick your
(44:31):
brain, how do I make this work?
I want to do it in Tucson orsomething.
And we say sure, and we spendan hour, whatever it takes, and
sit down and have coffee andtell them, answer their
questions and tell them what weknow.
So there's a giving and asharing in that way, doing it
ourselves.
And people used to say so whenare you going to get a real
gallery?
You know, brick and mortargallery?
I'd be like no, I don't thinkwe're, we don't want to do that,
because there's this thoughtthat success is growth, right,
(44:56):
so you start your food truck andthen, if it's really successful
, you open the real restaurant.
And so, axel, we had to reallyresist success being measured by
growth, because we didn't wantto sit in a brick and mortar
gallery for eight hours a day inorder to sell art and then
worry about the rent and all ofthat.
(45:17):
It was better to keep itcontained in what it was better
to keep it contained in what itwas.
We did have an idea, which wehaven't done and probably won't
do, which is to have some sortof creative carnival traveling
that goes town to townthroughout the Southwest with 10
or 20 different vehicles thatare outfitted as stages and
(45:40):
galleries, like a circus.
A circus, yeah, and we findsome, like you know, prearrange
it, but some empty lot on theoutside of town and set up all
the things and have a bonfireand hang out and everyone you
know camps out there and thenthe next day there's a big event
and you know, for a weekend.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
I mean, the reason that that excites me so much is
because, you know, when Istarted Santa Fe Arts Club
during COVID, when we were, allyou know, cooped up, you know I
made it arts plural because Iwanted to engage the music arts
and the performance arts anddance arts and all that.
And what would be so much funabout a caravan of things to
(46:21):
have, like you said, thesestages with you know sort of a
dance focus and a theater focus?
Speaker 2 (46:27):
or a music focus right, and a magic show and
whatever.
Yeah, yeah, we've talked a bitwith um joe west, who's a
musician here, who's great ummusician and performer and
impresario um, and he's excitedabout it.
But the thing thing is it takessomeone maybe you're the person
takes someone to organize it.
Like there's insurance, there's, everyone needs their vehicle.
(46:50):
You know it's a lot of work.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
When you call these things, one of those pop up
things called oh God, there's aname for it where you know, a
flash mob, a flash mob and kindof one gorilla.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Does it still have to ?
I guess we still have have to.
We have to get people to showup.
Uh, yeah, who knows, there's amillion ways to do it.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Yeah, you should do it, lily well, I think we need
to talk about yeah, okay, Ireally do, because I think that
I mean at least once a year andand we can't really talk.
We can't talk about it herebecause it has to be a surprise
if it's going to be in thespirit of flash mob, which I
think it really could be fun, awhole bunch of, I mean, because
I know choreographers who wouldlove to be involved, I know some
musicians who would love to beinvolved and you know, we just
(47:30):
like decide on a day and like wejust show up and we do it yeah,
that's possible all right.
Well, maybe we'll talk aboutthat.
Um again, there are more ideasthan there are hours in the day
right.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Yeah, it's good to have ideas and throw them around
.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
Yeah, why not?
I mean, I think the mostimportant thing that could come
out of all of this is thatobviously we're living in a time
where there's a lot of tensionaround and there are a lot of
unknowns.
Really I haven't noticed, butbut we're gonna have to keep it
light, we're gonna have to stayengaged in a way that's you know
that's not the doom scrollingand this and that and and what
(48:11):
better way.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
I mean this is one of the other great things about
the arts is that you know it cankind of take us outside of that
realm of that life is going tohold a handbasket and kind of
introduce something new andunexpected, and we'll just need
to yeah, you got to keep, keepand I think it's important to
engage with not the doomscrolling but the doom and see
(48:34):
where the opportunities are tomake a difference and have
activate those um, and it'simportant also to get away from
that and do things that are likeyou say are light or fun or
yeah, yeah, and I guess that'snot.
That's not to um deny thatthere's bad stuff going right
(48:54):
and to some degree we'reimplicated in the bad stuff and
we need to take responsibilityfor our role in society and what
we do.
And so I don't think we canignore the bad stuff or just say
, oh it's bad, I don't want tolook at it.
We have to look at it, but thenwe have to do other things too.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
I mean, that's sort of the thing that the artists
can do is we can say this isanother, another channel through
, you know, the dark and stormyis to look it straight in the
eye and be in action inretaliation or whatever.
It is whatever.
So well cool, anything elsethat we haven't covered.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
No, that's everything I could ever think of.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
Well, I'm really glad I bumped into you.
Speaker 2 (49:42):
Yeah, this has been fun.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Well, we'm really glad I bumped into you.
Yeah, this has been fun.
Well, we'll see.
Hopefully.
The sound quality I think I gotmy mic turned around and your
voice is louder than mine, butwhatever, this will be great and
yeah, so look for us onartstormingorg and what's your
podcast?
Speaker 2 (49:58):
If you look, Coffee and Culture with Matthew Chase,
Daniel you can find it.
Or you can go to my website,chasedanielcom, and that has
links to all the different theLena, Wall and Axel and my own
artwork and all things.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
Excellent, cool, all right, well, we'll end it there.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Okay, thank you so much.
Thank you, lily.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Well, thanks for joining us today.
Please like and follow us onartstormingorg, where you'll
find a list of our shows, atranscript of this episode with
links to the guest page, as wellas our other projects.
Art Storming is brought to youand supported by Artbridge and
listeners like you.
Look for us on your favoritepodcast platforms.
Ever wonder what makes really creative people
tick?
Where do their ideas come from?
What keeps them energized?
What kinds of things get intheir way?
Is their life really as muchfun as it looks from the outside
?
Hello, I'm your host, liliPierpont, and this is
ArtStorming, a podcast about hownew ideas come to life and
become paintings, sculptures,plays or poems, performances or
(00:25):
collections.
Each episode, I'll chat with aguest from the arts community
and explore how the mostcreative among us stare down a
blank canvas or reach into thevoid and create something new.
Today, I'll be art-storming withMatthew Chase Daniel, and it
almost happened by accident.
(00:46):
I had Matthew on my list ofpotential guests, but what
sealed the deal and made theinterview actually happen when
it did is a perfect Santa Festory.
Now, santa Fe is big enoughthat you can go for years
without seeing someone you knowquite well, even when you're in
the same general circles.
And maybe it's because Santa Feart Circle is so huge, or maybe
(01:08):
the people I know are just ondifferent schedules and they're
pulling into Trader Joe's justas I'm pulling out.
But today was one of thosesmall world Santa Fe encounters.
I was picking up a prescription.
The line was really long and Inoticed that Matthew was several
people ahead of me.
Now, I wasn't trying to jump inline or anything, but the point
is there was plenty of time tosay hello.
(01:30):
I usually see Matthew at events,and it's often across the room,
and he's often engaged with avisitor to his gallery, which
you'll hear about shortly, so Irarely get a chance to chat with
him in depth.
Anyway, we started the usualcatch-up banter and then I
remembered that I had heard orseen that he had a radio show,
and I asked him if that wasstill going Well.
(01:51):
The time passed very quickly,we each had our prescriptions
and walked our conversation outto the parking lot.
Naturally, I asked him if he'dconsider being a guest on
ArtStorming and he said sure.
And when we started to do thecalendar thing, he said, well,
I'm free now.
And I said now well, I guessI'm actually free now too.
So this is what that now turnedinto.
(02:12):
So I'm here with Matthew, chaseDaniel.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Everyone's got a podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
now they say it's a new thing.
So as an introduction I'll justsay that the last time you were
here at this house probablysitting in that chair- we were
doing another project together,which was through Axel, which
I'm going to make you talk about.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
And it was with an artist, stephen Osher, and we
created this like trippy thinginside.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, it was called Iris and you went in through the
back and there was a tiny roommade out of mirrors with this
ball, glowing ball in the centerthat flashed incredibly bright
light in different colors.
So you get closed up in there Acomponent to it, where the
floor was vibrating.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
So it's a sensory experience and so the people had
a two minute experience.
We stopped experience and itwould do so that people had a
two minute experience.
We strapped.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
They had to sign a release in case they died in
there and we monitored theirbrain activity.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
And then we had this little what do you call it?
What did I call it?
Like a little breakout session.
Afterwards, I had used theseblow up chairs when we were in
the rail yard.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Oh yeah, that was wonderful and a little space
there and talked about theexperience.
Yeah, and the flashing lightexperience.
It's sort of like a psychedelicexperience and sort of like a
meditative experience.
It really changes your sort ofpsychological reality for a
little while and maybe for along time, and Stephen continued
to do research and work withthat sort of stuff um he and I
(03:47):
work together.
Um, the lena wall is a thing Icurate on the corner of lena
street and second street, whichis where steven's studio is, so,
um, so we were involved in thatbecause he's engaged in that
and very supportive of that.
When we have opening events andartist talks and stuff that all
happens in his studio.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Which is a great space.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah, which used to be Cloud Cliff Cafe restaurant
the bakery is still in the back,but the front, what used to be
where people would sit and eat,which my wife Julie worked in
when we first moved here 35years ago, is now Steven's
studio, and Stephen has a showup now at G2 Gallery on Chipsy
(04:31):
Alley on Kenyon Road.
Yeah, but it's up to the middleof this month, middle of
February.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Check it out, me too.
I just want to insert here,because it's just so much fun,
that the way this is evenhappening is that we were
standing in line at Walgreenswaiting for prescriptions and we
bumped into each other, andthat's the cool thing about
Santa Fe is, you know, you canjust be going about your day and
these, this, this wonderfuloverlap of people, all come
(04:58):
together and we all actuallylive here in addition to doing
all our various artisticendeavors.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Pedantic things like go pick up prescriptions at
Walgreens.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
And then we get something spontaneous like this
to happen.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
And they did it fast for me at Walgreens.
They didn't have it filled andthey said, oh, you have to come
back in four hours.
And I said can't you just do itnow?
And five minutes later it'sdone.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I see Small town.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Ho, small town, not know is a mobile art space
gallery in an old 1970 aluminumdelivery truck which has raised
ceilings and lighting andwindows, and my friend jerry
wellman and I have been runningthat since 2010, so that's 14th.
We're in our 15th year, I guess.
And uh, we mobile gallery.
It's a mobile gallery.
Um, sometimes we have likegroup shows, mostly in in the
summer, works on the wall, worksfor sale around different
(06:10):
themes.
Sometimes we have installationart.
There's nothing for sale.
You just look in the back.
Those are more in the coldweather so we're not sitting in
there.
During COVID shutdown westarted doing printed
wheat-pasted art on the exterior, so it was a COVID-safe thing.
People could walk by or driveby.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Like a la JR.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yeah, or any wheat-paste street art kind of
thing.
So each artist who does itdesigns work to use the space.
It's usually not just like arectangle of print of a painting
or a photograph stuck on theoutside.
It's on all four sides andbetween the windows and on the
doors and wrapped it's a wholewrap thing and we print those
(06:57):
and glue those up.
The artist just does the designwork.
So we did that during COVID in2020, 2021, but we really liked
it so we keep doing that.
So those are sort of our threethings the outside broadsides
work, the installation work andthen the group shows inside.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
And that's a nonprofit organization.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yeah, we run it.
There's actually twoorganizational structures
there's an LLC that does theday-to-day operations and
there's a nonprofit that doesthe grant writing and the
fundraising and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
You often park in a central location at the rail
yard or something, but you cantake it around to various
different sites, so it'sgenuinely mobile.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
It's very mobile.
Yeah, and it's right.
So if there's an exciting eventhappening we can be there, if
we're invited or if we want tobe there.
And then other times we'reoutside a coffee shop or grocery
store or on the plaza or onCanyon Road, all over town, down
by the Genevieve Chavezswimming pool, and sometimes we
(08:05):
take it out of town.
So last year, in 24, we did twobig projects.
One was on the Navajo Nationand we were in Utah, Arizona and
New Mexico during the month ofJune going to different places
with Diné artist Rafael Begayand that was sort of a social
engagement interactive projectand there was photography on the
(08:27):
outside and on the inside andhe was with us the whole way.
And then there was more photoson A-frames, sort of like
realtor A-frame signs outside,and we were at flea markets and
national parks and art eventsand different things all around
the nationwhich was great.
And then in the fall end ofAugust, september, beginning of
(08:48):
October, we did the finalportion of our traveling
portrait thing, where the insideof the gallery is set up as a
portrait studio and we takeportraits of people and print
them right there, give them outfor free to the people and then
also glue copies on the outsideof the truck.
So we've, during the last 12years we've traveled all around
(09:10):
New Mexico.
Each every two years adifferent area for a month or
two, take pictures of the peoplein that area.
So this last one was insoutheastern and south central
New Mexico.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
What I love so much about what you do is that it
really is.
Has you can see the directcommunity impact.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
In a place where so many arts organizations can be
accused of being somewhatelitist, and that you know being
supported by donors who thenbecome their audience, you know
you guys really are, have a hugeand broad reach and you're
bringing artwork to attentionthat might otherwise get
(09:52):
overlooked, so you're doing ahuge community service, Thank
you.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, I think a lot of our larger art organizations
really want to do that communityengagement and they're a little
stuck because there isculturally.
It's a little difficult to getpeople to show up in your fancy
museum or gallery and if we justgo park outside the grocery
(10:18):
store where people are gettinggroceries, they might just peek
in the back and maybe they seeit for two seconds and they get
a little hit of something that'sinteresting.
But maybe they're more engagedand they come and talk to one of
us and we spend an hour havinga conversation and they take
more time looking and so it's atricky, useful way of getting
(10:40):
people engaged.
And we didn't necessarily havea big mission or plan.
It sort of evolved that way Forus.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
We started at thinking it was kind of a silly,
fun idea and let's just do itBecause, without thinking it,
that's the best way for thingsto emerge, because then you
don't really have this wholeprojected idea of what it's
supposed to be like, whateverright, we didn't have a business
plan, we didn't have a bigmission, um, we didn't actually
(11:10):
think it was a good idea.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
And I think that's a important thing for, you know,
young people in the arts, um,and in all sorts of business is,
if you have an idea that soundsreally stupid, maybe there's a
grain of something really greatin it.
Um, because it's hard to findsomething that hasn't been
overdone.
You look on the internet.
Now you want to start a mobileart gallery.
(11:32):
There's probably hundreds outthere, even though you've never
heard of it.
You thought you invented it.
So anything you think of that'snot the sort of thing that
other people are already doingmight be worth exploring.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Well, how did you and Jerry come to the idea of it in
the first place?
So you had to get the truck.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
It had to be a little bit thought through.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah Well, we're both working artists and I was
working on a series of portraitsof artists working in their
studios series of portraits ofartists working in their studios
and so I spent a few hours withhim while he was making some
drawings, taking pictures of him, and we started talking about
(12:18):
this.
I live out on Las Vegas Highwaya little bit and there where
they sell firewood and rocks onthe side, there was this 1970
International Harvester, bigflatbed truck, yellow and red,
and I just thought it was themost beautiful thing and I
wanted it.
For no reason I'm not a personwho generally wants to collect a
lot of things, but I wanted it.
(12:39):
So I was telling Jerry about itand he had a little travel
trailer and he was thinking ofhanging some little small works
of his and parking it somewhere.
So he was like, oh, what if weopened an art gallery, you know,
bought this InternationalHarvester?
So we contacted the owner andit turned out it wasn't the
right truck.
(12:59):
And then we were sort of off andwe were looking at airport, um,
shuttle, bus things.
You know.
We wanted something easy towalk into and, um, not too
intimidating, and uh, so wesettled on step vans cause they
have the interior stairs there.
It's not too high to get in.
Like a flat bed all of that.
And uh, then we looked aroundand we found the truck for sale
(13:23):
on Craigslist in ColoradoSprings and brought it home and
spent a couple months liftingthe roof and building the walls
inside and then we had a showand people loved it and then we
had another show.
Now it's been about 200 shows.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
That's so amazing.
Did you show your?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
work.
We have shown some of our works, but it's never been, I think,
that first show.
Maybe we both had work, andthen also Paula Castillo and
Eliza Naranjo-Morris I think itwas maybe the four of us.
It might have been more youshowed Paula's work because
that's pretty big Paula's workwere drawings or digital
(14:04):
drawings.
Big Apollo's work were drawingsor digital drawings.
Sort of related to, but notexactly the same as her
sculpture.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Wow, and so you've been here long enough that
you've cultivated all theserelationships with artists and
as an artist yourself.
Were you ever a showing artist?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
here in Santa Fe.
I show in a gallery mostly inLos Angeles Craig Kroll Gallery
in Santa Monica but I have shownhere.
Victoria Price used to show mywork and Evo Gallery used to
show my work, and then I've hadpieces in other shows over the
years.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Which side do you like?
Being on better, being on thecreative?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
side, or the promot, the promoter, promoter side
no-transcript, how to say.
I wasn't that motivated to makemore objects to put out in the
world, partly because it wasisolation and just like I don't
need to make this for who, forwhat, but partly it was like a
(15:03):
huge buying spree, becausepeople were cooped up.
Yeah, and a lot of people arelike oh my God, I can just stay
home and make work all the time.
That's great.
But for me it was the opposite.
I was like I don't need to makeanything.
And it never came back.
It used to be.
I was sort of driven to it.
I had to go out in my studioand go outside and be constantly
putting things together, likegoing on a vacation and lying on
(15:25):
the beach in the sun was theworst thing I could imagine.
So I'd go on a beach vacationwith family or whatever and I'd
bring some pliers and some wireand some needle and thread and
find things and put themtogether and make things, you
know, while I was there.
So I have made things since thattime, but less driven to and
(15:46):
more interested in sort of whatI do at Actel and through the
other things I'm involved inpromoting and helping other
people get their work out in theworld, because there are tons
of people out there who are veryexcited to make things all the
time.
Yeah, but they don'tnecessarily know or everyone
(16:06):
always needs help getting it outbetter and more.
So I do my podcast radio showon KTRC Coffee and Culture and I
do curate the Lena Wall on 2ndStreet and Lena Street and I'm
on the Rail Yard Art Committeechoosing art, helping choose art
for the Rail Yard Park.
(16:28):
So stuff like that isgratifying.
It's gratifying in a differentway, but it feels like a nice
service to the community in away.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
I think a lot of what I talk to about when I'm
talking to the artists on thisshow is like how they access the
creative field and what thatfeels like coming through them
as the medium.
But you know, there's there's athere's a bigger component to
that which is bringing art, youknow, going into the field,
literally, of artists andbringing that out to the public.
So there's another tier of thatand it sounds to me like that's
(17:02):
really you're finding yoursatisfaction in that.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Yeah, and you know, if I go to galleries here in
Santa Fe or New York or LA orwherever, I might see a hundred
different artists work and theremight be one or two, if I'm
lucky, that really thrilled meand inspired me.
You know most of the art I see.
I'm like, oh, after.
You know, when I look at artall the time every day, most of
(17:29):
you get I get a little jaded,like it's rare that something
really stands out and inspiresme, and when it does, I'm very
excited to help that.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
I can totally get that, because there's a certain,
you know, we talk about, likehow does the authenticity come
through?
And I think for me, for a lotof people, because I do see a
lot of artwork and I can bepleased by it, you know, but for
something to really kind ofslap me in the face there's,
there's some kind of struggle orsomething.
(18:02):
It doesn't have to be likeexistential struggle, but
there's, you can, I can feelthere's something in real time
happening, that's, that'sextending beyond that particular
work so yeah the energy of theartist going into the work, and
then it's still going.
It hasn't just landed.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Right, and there's something also in looking at
work where you can see things.
You've learned a certainlanguage and you can look at
stuff really quickly.
I was doing a studio visit acouple of days ago and there was
the work of an interestingartist who passed away and his
widow is trying to find home forhis big five foot by five foot
(18:42):
paintings, of which they'reabout 20.
And they were showing the womanand the other artists were
showing me the work and movingthem because they're so big and
there was one good spot to lookat them.
They were moving in and so tellme when you're ready to look at
the next one.
And they moved when I was like,okay, I'm ready for the next.
Okay, and it was like a fewseconds, like you get a great
(19:05):
hit on something and get a senseof it.
You're not necessarily sittingthere living with it.
You know that's a different wayof engaging with art, but, um,
just, I feel like I've learned alot about looking at art in
just through the practice ofdoing it, as well as through
school and talking with otherartists.
(19:26):
I went to college in liberalarts and I studied sculpture and
photography and anthropologyand ethnology Did you have a
school role as an artist, yeah.
So I finished school I was inNew York and then I moved to
Paris and finished school thereand then worked as an artist
(19:49):
right away but also workedrenovating houses and apartments
in Paris and in Nice and inBakersfield and in Boston and
here Eventually ended up here bythe time I was 25 or so so that
was soon after that and did alot of renovations and
(20:10):
historical renovations on adobehouses and redoing kitchens and
building fireplaces and stuff,just pretty much independently
what there is.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
That seems to be a connection, but, because I come
from an interior designbackground too, there's
something about likeexperiencing spaces in a
three-dimensional way,especially when you're engaging
with the, the creation of thosespaces.
That gives you a, gives onelike a three-dimensional way of
understanding the world, and Ithink it really does inform how
we look at art.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, especially at sculpture, yeah, yeah.
No, I was studying sculptureand working on houses I mean
making sculpture and working onhouses and at one point I
considered going to architectureschool.
I went and visited a bunch ofschools in California and
thought about doing that as away of sort of combining the two
, and then I realized I was muchmore interested in making art
and not, you know, working withclients figuring out what they
(21:05):
wanted, but more of a pureexperience of making what I
wanted somebody, a creative likethat, who?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
is sort of um I think summers had a great term of
compulsively creative and andsomebody who I'm calling them
the civilians of the world, youknow, who are just kind of they
can appreciate it, but theydon't have that like drug.
What?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
what?
Where's that?
Oh, it's.
Uh.
Who knows, it could be somedysfunction, psychological
dysfunction, of like hunger insomething yeah it's the same.
You know we're making all thetime, or we're eating all the
time or having sex all the time,or whatever the function
dysfunction is that drives us totry and work something out.
You know, some people go topsychotherapy and that's really
(21:49):
meaningful to them and I've donesome of that and it's been
great.
But I work a lot out.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
It feels like through the, through the making and
just that the creatives have inmy observation and my own honest
, personal experience is thatyou know, it becomes a lot
easier to invent your day likeif you're used to creating from
nothing and you're not afraid ofmaking mistakes.
You can mistakes, you canproblem, solve the little stupid
(22:17):
things of the day a little biteasier, because things don't
have the same weight.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
You're used to throwing something at a canvas
and if it doesn't work, you doit another way.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
And I feel like that kind of emboldens people I mean
creatives.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah, the last few months, you know Axel had our
last show was maybe thebeginning of december and we
don't have something else untilbeginning of march, and that
usually takes a lot of my time.
We usually don't take that muchtime off in the winter, and so
I've been finding myself bored alittle bit, which is very
unusual for me and just likewaking up in the morning and
(22:52):
like I don't know, I'll check myemail, I'll look at social
media, whatever.
Prescription and do a podcastRight, and it's a little unusual
and difficult.
But I'm also sort of trying torelax into that boredom and
allow that to be the sort of letsomething percolate to the top
(23:15):
in a way that I don't when I'msuper busy, just like getting
the next grant in or writing thenext press release, or painting
the next wall, or driving tothe next town or whatever for
the other work I do.
And so I think you know, I feelprivileged that I have the time
(23:36):
to be bored and that I don'thave a nine to five job these
days and I can wake up and feelbored.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Well, I mean, you know, nine to five.
I mean, I'm sure the work youdo exceeds the nine to five
bracket.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Yeah, it's more than 40 hours, it's all.
Yeah, all I do.
Yeah, more than 40 hours, it'sall.
Yeah, all I do, yeah, andrecently there's a bunch of
pinyon trees that have diedaround where I live and so I've
been cutting them and trimmingthem a little and flipping them
upside down and peeling all thebark off of them and putting
(24:11):
them in the landscape.
It's odd, it's compelling to me.
I'm not sure you know, I don'thave a great explanation for why
it's interesting, but it'sinteresting and so Is it because
you're engaging with a naturalmaterial which is different from
your normal medium or Well,I've cut a lot of trees for
firewood, so it sort of grew outof that.
(24:31):
It was like a dead tree that Iwanted to come down because I
didn't want it to fall on afence or whatever.
So I was cutting it down andthen I was like, oh, what if it
was the other way?
And so maybe don't cut it upfirst.
And then the bark beetles, youknow, make it, so the bark is
loose.
So then I would just, with alittle hatchet, taking off the
(24:52):
bark and cleaning it, and thenit's like these beautiful
natural forms.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
and then it's like, okay, so I'll haul one, you know
, drag one behind my truck up tothis little meadow space, and
yeah, I mean, I think I, I thinkthose of us who sort of traffic
in the creative field forgetthat you know it's, it's, it's
not a common thing to do whenyou're out like chopping wood
for firewood and then all of asudden be deep ensconced enough
in the project that you justthink to turn that, flip the
(25:17):
thing over.
And then you, you know, youstrip it up its arms and
whatever you call it yeah, yeahand then all of a sudden,
something else is emerging, butthat takes a particular type of
curiosity in mind and, likeevery, every, yeah or is is is
taken for granted.
Nothing is just a normal thing.
Everything is a potential artproject.
Yeah, maybe that's just becauseI'm bored because I stopped
smoking weed and it's somethingis is taken for granted.
Nothing is just a normal thing.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Everything is a potential art project yeah,
maybe that's just because I'mbored, because I stopped smoking
weed and it's something.
Um, no, I think, um, yeah, Ithink it's an openness to think
about that.
I don't really believe that,like creative people, artists,
people are like some specialbreed that other people aren't.
I think it's just a choice ofhow to engage and how to look,
(25:59):
and taking that time Like you'renot just there cutting the wood
because you need the wood.
You're cutting the wood becauseyou need the wood to heat the
house, but you're also engagedin the physicality of it and
looking at the grain of the woodand looking at the bark and the
different kinds of wood and thebugs that ate it and what their
little grubs look like whenyou're peeling the bark and just
(26:20):
an interest, and it's aninterest in science and ecology
and art and nature and all thosethings.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
I mean, yes, we all have that capacity, and one of
the reasons I'm doing thisproject is so that we can all
remember that we all have thatcapacity, something that is
reserved for one particulargroup.
But I think it does involvedisengaging from the little
square thing that we are mostlyattached to and getting back
(26:50):
doing something that involvesengaging with something outside
of technology.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Yeah, but technology can be a way in too.
I just made a video of there'sa new installation by James
Gould called Sprickle, which isthis strange little looks like a
barn or greenery in the middleof the rail yard park, and I
spent a week on and off helpinghim install it, and while I was
doing that I shot a bunch ofvideo of him and his helpers um
(27:19):
putting it together and I justyou know it's something to
promote it on Instagram, and sothat's using my little, my
little rectangular machine in acreative way.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
And.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
I really enjoy that making, shooting video, editing
video and with social media andall that.
As much as it is a distraction,it's also a great way to put
out things like short films.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Another case in point that you know you're just one
of those animals that, no matterwhat tools in your hand, you're
using it for some kind ofcreative, it's just how you're
wired.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Right, I put in the screw helping him, and then with
the other hand, then I'm like,oh, I need to shoot more video,
you know, back and forth.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
I think it's staying busy too.
I'm I'm not great at beingstill maybe.
Well, I'm trying.
Why?
Why am I trying?
Well, like what I was sayingbefore about boredom, like, just
like, oh, you're bored, youdon't know what to do.
Don't just don't just dosomething yet on instagram and
doom scroll.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Just sit there and and stare at the wall, drink
your coffee and do you know like, and do you know, when that
moment happens, that you've beenstill enough that something
comes through?
Can you feel it happening?
Speaker 2 (28:36):
yeah, usually just like something pops up, like
that little message that's on myscreen or who knows what those
are, or I think, oh right, Ihave to call blah, blah, blah.
And then I go to find my phoneand make a call, or so often in
the morning I'll wake up and I'mlying in bed and just being
still and then all of a suddenlike oh right, I remember that
(28:57):
thing, I better do that, and Iget up and start doing that.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
So well, that's me like.
You're like it's like all partof the process, it's all part of
the creative process.
So you don't distinguishbetween random everyday shit you
gotta do and and and thecreative work.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Yeah, it's all.
Yeah, I mean bookkeeping.
Maybe it's a little different,but I've learned to enjoy that
too.
There's a satisfaction, yeah,no, there's a satisfaction when
you do this and you do that andyou figure out all the math and
you're like, okay, well, thatworks that all works brain
integration thing going, becauseI mean you know not bookkeeping
(29:34):
, uh-uh I don't know I mean Ican do it, I have to do it.
It's one of those yeah, if youhave to do it, you may as well
enjoy it.
It's like grant writing too.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
No, can't do it.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Yeah, there's a satisfaction.
Yeah, and I've done.
Yeah, I've done it for Axel andfor the Lena Wall and for
projects I'm involved in, butI've also done it for hire for
other organizations over thepast few years, and that's a lot
harder to do when you're notembedded in the organization and
(30:05):
know all the details by heartto try and write about what
someone else is doing.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Well, I mean, I guess , when you're passionate about a
project and you want to get itdone.
You know that obviously is alot of juice for right getting
it done, whatever it's going totake.
Yeah, yeah, so I totally well.
What's what's next in terms ofexciting projects that you're
cooking up?
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Well, axel has a show by Inge Hendriksen which is
sort of these biomorphic,brightly colored abstract forms
that hang from the ceiling andcome out of the walls and the
floor.
So it's an installation andthat'll be up the month of March
, maybe into the beginning ofApril, around Santa Fe, and then
(30:51):
in April and May we have workby Jameson Chase Banks and
Animkewa White Eagle, which isso it's a show about dioramas
and about this proto-dinosaurfossil which is named after
(31:11):
George O'Keefe and there arethousands of them, I think,
found up at Ghost Ranch, whichis why they named it after her
up near Abq.
And so Jameson Chase Banks hascarved in cedar a life-size
figure of this dinosaur creatureand so we're showing that.
(31:38):
And then we're going todifferent schools and places in
Abiquiu and around Santa Fe andhe's running workshops with the
kids about making their owndioramas, about different things
.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Is the dinosaur you know talking about how old Santa
Fe is?
I mean, I've recently seen thisnew information about.
You know the footprints thatwere found under white sands
Under white sands, yeah.
How old this is, and so youknow it's pre-ice age.
Yeah, We've been here.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah, well, the dinosaurs.
I don't think they're dinosaursand people mixed together up in
those fossils.
But yeah, it's about a lot ofthings I can't really say.
I'll know more once we show thework.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
And how do you decide who's next?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Well, that show.
This is the second year we'veworked with the Georgia O'Keeffe
Museum.
A few years ago they bought atruck, sort of like Axle, and
outfitted it as a travelingworkspace and it opens up and
they have tables to do projects.
It's called Art2Go G-O, likeGeorgia O'Keeffe, so we've been
(32:47):
working with them doing a mobileartist-in-residence where an
artist we together people atO'Keeffe, chic, lake Corcolis
and Beth Murphy and JerryWellman and I together choose
artists, invite them and ifthey're interested they get paid
a stipend and do a project withthe George O'Keefe mobile thing
(33:12):
for a while and then do a showin Axel.
So that's how that one cameabout.
Others people send ussubmissions.
We have an email link on ourhomepage where people can send
us proposals for installationsor to show us their art for
group shows.
So usually when we do groupshows, jerry and I come up with
(33:36):
a theme, but sometimes we haveguest curators or partner with
other organizations that weapproach or they approach us to
do a project.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
It's all very unscripted and fluid how things
come to us entity that goesbetween a significant
institution like GeorgiaO'Keeffe Museum and, you know,
hanging out in front of agrocery store to just engage
people with the arts.
And my experience in Santa Feis that a lot of the larger arts
organizations are a little bitsiloed.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
And there isn't this, you know overreach that I feel
like there could be, and whatcould we do if there was more?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Yeah, sometimes I feel like we're sewing, like
we're a little needle dragging athread and driving around and
pulling these things togetherand weaving something together.
And we adore working withGeorgia O'Keeffe or Sight Santa
Fe or the Folk Art Museum or theMuseum of Indian Arts and
Culture or countless bigcultural institutions that we've
(34:46):
worked with over the years, butalso working with things that
aren't perceived, you know,grocery stores and coffee shops
and just and being on the streetand available and accessible
and unpretentious.
So we try and break down thosebarriers and our feeling is
those organizations are reallytrying to break down those
(35:06):
barriers too.
They don't mean to be silent,it's just the nature of the
history of the museum and thecollection and the art gallery.
You know the fancy New York artgallery where I go to a gallery
in New York and Chelsea aresinging.
I walk in and there's someonebehind the desk sort of typing
(35:26):
on their computer and the wallsare all white and it's all very
clean and cold and I feelintimidated going in there.
And why would I feelintimidated?
There's nothing that shouldintimidate me, but I feel it
nonetheless.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
So there is.
Maybe it's a little bitintentional in new york to kind
of create this mystique of highart exactly, I really object to.
It's one of the reasons I gotinto the field.
That I got into is to kind ofbreak that down a little bit,
because when a 22 year old youknow kind of gives me attitude
about like what am I doing inher gallery, excuse me, yeah, I
(36:04):
have a whole thing about that.
But I'm wondering do you thinkthat it sounds like you're sort
of like a pollinator, like a beethat goes to these flower
institutions?
Do you think more pollinatingsmall organizations would be
beneficial to Santa Fe as acommunity to get even more of
those connections happening?
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Yeah, I mean, I think there are things there's little
alternative art spaces andmusic spaces, and I don't even
know what they all are, but theycome and go and graduate and
become bigger things or closedown and the people move away.
You know there's a whole rangeof things.
So I don't think I think themore of those the better.
(36:45):
But I also think it's very hardto make it work.
Like Jerry and I run Axel andwe hire an accountant to help us
file our taxes for a fewhundred dollars a year and we
pay for insurance and otherwisewe do all the work ourselves,
whether it's writing pressreleases or social media or
curation or even a lot of, youknow, changing the alternator in
(37:10):
the vehicle or whatever.
So, and both of us are older andhave had other careers and have
some money, so we don't need topay our mortgages on our houses
with the money we make fromrunning Axel, and so we're in a
privileged position to be ableto do what we do.
And if I were 25 and didn'thave other resources and tried
(37:37):
to make a go of it, I don'tthink that would be the smartest
way to go, but maybe I mean wedo, jerry and I have been doing
it a long time and he's a littleolder than I am.
We think about what Axel willbe in five years or ten years,
and how can we bring otherpeople in who can do… To carry
(37:59):
it on when we're done, or tohelp us so we can do less, or
whatever it is.
So we're always on the lookoutfor how that could be, and it's
not easy to figure out.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Have you noticed sort of the direct impact that you,
as that coordinating, you knowthat uniting thread has had on
the community, uniting threadhas had on the community?
I mean, what underservedcommunities have you really been
?
Speaker 2 (38:29):
able to feel like you've reached.
Well, we mix it up a lot, sosome of the communities we reach
are well-served communities.
They're people who like art andwho go to art galleries or who
are on the plaza or Canyon Roada lot of tourists, I think.
But then there's also peoplewho don't do that on the south
(38:49):
side of town or, you know, thewest side of town or at grocery
stores, and so it's just peopleof all walks of life,
economically and racially inevery way might come by and
racially in every way might comeby.
What's most remarkable, I think,is since we've been in Santa Fe
for so long and Santa Fe isreally an art town people aren't
(39:25):
that surprised to see art in anold truck on the side of the
road here, belen or Lordsburg orClayton or Las Vegas or you
know, we've been all over thestate of New Mexico or Monument
Valley in Utah or the fleamarket in Shiprock.
It is a surprise and people arethrilled and inspired to see
that there and reallyappreciative that we bother to
(40:00):
drive out Democratic communitiesand they might be really
conservative you know Republicanvoting communities in southern
New Mexico but all feel ingeneral and there's occasional
exceptions, but rarely everpeople are thrilled to see us
there and appreciative thatwe're there, see us there and
(40:24):
appreciate that we're there, andyou know.
So we've gradually also madeall these connections with
people in each of these littlecommunities where we've wanted
to go.
So we contact people and theyhelp us and now it's easy for us
to go back there.
So, partnering with other largeorganizations that are trying
to get their work out in theworld, it's really nice that
Axel can help do that.
(40:44):
Like, oh yeah, we can go toHobbs, we know the people down
there who will help and you know, whatever it, comes down to
relationships as much as the artthat you're actually bringing.
Yeah, the relationships allow usto get it out there, because we
can show up somewhere in sometown and park on the side of the
road and that's fine.
But if there's an article inthe local paper or everyone gets
(41:13):
an email from someone they know, or it's on.
And social media has reallyhelped too, because we can pay
for boosting of a Facebook eventin some little town, you know
in Deming or something, whereanyone who's on Facebook
endemming will see that we'regoing to be there.
And before there was socialmedia that was impossible and we
can do that for 20 bucks orsomething.
So I forget what your questionwas.
(41:36):
But yeah, who do we reach andhow do we?
Speaker 1 (41:41):
I think it's so interesting because we tend to
in in our culture, materialisticculture, tend to get so focused
on measuring our impact withdollars that are raised or
whatever.
But your perfect example, theanti-version of that, where
you're really focusing onliterally expanding your reach
and how many communities can youyou touch, how many
(42:01):
relationships can you forge?
right and I think that's areally important um uh role
model for for what organizationslike ours arts organizations
you know are about, because atthe end of the day, you know
it's, it's about reaching asmany people and letting them
know that they are important,that this is theirs too.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Yeah, yeah.
And I find that democratizing ofthe yeah, and when we have to
report for a grant and say howmany, what the numbers are,
that's very difficult because wedon't count the numbers.
And the majority of our stuffthere's nothing for sale and
there's never any fee toparticipate.
Everything's offered for freeand occasionally we have work
(42:49):
for sale and that helps supportour organization for sure, when
we sell stuff but that's not thewe don't have to sell stuff in
order to pay the rent and thestaff and all of that.
So it really frees stuff up tobe more for the community, Whose
lives you're going to touch inthe doing of that.
So it really frees stuff up tobe more for the community.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Whose lives you're going to touch in the doing of
that right?
I mean, how many young emergingartists have resulted from
being present when your truckcomes through town, and they
just happen to be in the rightplace at the right time?
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Yeah, and we've been doing it long enough.
I mean, I've run into, you know, 25 year olds who like, oh my
God, this has been my favoritething since I was a kid.
You know, I'm so excited, youknow, and it's just like, oh my
God, that's so.
Doing something for a long timereally is satisfying that way.
But the you know, your podcast,my podcast, those sort of
(43:39):
things too, are great ways ofinspiring people and getting
work out in the world in a waythat you don't know.
Just having these conversations, giving people an opportunity
to speak about their work, andnot just like their creative
work, but just like their livesand like how it fits all
together.
Like you know, we've beentalking about a little bit.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Yeah, no, I think it really is important.
Do you think can you everconceive of a situation where
you had a whole fleet of axletrucks, or would that kind?
Speaker 2 (44:09):
of space, but we didn't really want to bother
trying to figure that out.
But anyone who asks us, we'vehad people say can I pick your
(44:31):
brain, how do I make this work?
I want to do it in Tucson orsomething.
And we say sure, and we spendan hour, whatever it takes, and
sit down and have coffee andtell them, answer their
questions and tell them what weknow.
So there's a giving and asharing in that way, doing it
ourselves.
And people used to say so whenare you going to get a real
gallery?
You know, brick and mortargallery?
I'd be like no, I don't thinkwe're, we don't want to do that,
because there's this thoughtthat success is growth, right,
(44:56):
so you start your food truck andthen, if it's really successful
, you open the real restaurant.
And so, axel, we had to reallyresist success being measured by
growth, because we didn't wantto sit in a brick and mortar
gallery for eight hours a day inorder to sell art and then
worry about the rent and all ofthat.
(45:17):
It was better to keep itcontained in what it was better
to keep it contained in what itwas.
We did have an idea, which wehaven't done and probably won't
do, which is to have some sortof creative carnival traveling
that goes town to townthroughout the Southwest with 10
or 20 different vehicles thatare outfitted as stages and
(45:40):
galleries, like a circus.
A circus, yeah, and we findsome, like you know, prearrange
it, but some empty lot on theoutside of town and set up all
the things and have a bonfireand hang out and everyone you
know camps out there and thenthe next day there's a big event
and you know, for a weekend.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
I mean, the reason that that excites me so much is
because, you know, when Istarted Santa Fe Arts Club
during COVID, when we were, allyou know, cooped up, you know I
made it arts plural because Iwanted to engage the music arts
and the performance arts anddance arts and all that.
And what would be so much funabout a caravan of things to
(46:21):
have, like you said, thesestages with you know sort of a
dance focus and a theater focus?
Speaker 2 (46:27):
or a music focus right, and a magic show and
whatever.
Yeah, yeah, we've talked a bitwith um joe west, who's a
musician here, who's great ummusician and performer and
impresario um, and he's excitedabout it.
But the thing thing is it takessomeone maybe you're the person
takes someone to organize it.
Like there's insurance, there's, everyone needs their vehicle.
(46:50):
You know it's a lot of work.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
When you call these things, one of those pop up
things called oh God, there's aname for it where you know, a
flash mob, a flash mob and kindof one gorilla.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Does it still have to ?
I guess we still have have to.
We have to get people to showup.
Uh, yeah, who knows, there's amillion ways to do it.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Yeah, you should do it, lily well, I think we need
to talk about yeah, okay, Ireally do, because I think that
I mean at least once a year andand we can't really talk.
We can't talk about it herebecause it has to be a surprise
if it's going to be in thespirit of flash mob, which I
think it really could be fun, awhole bunch of, I mean, because
I know choreographers who wouldlove to be involved, I know some
musicians who would love to beinvolved and you know, we just
(47:30):
like decide on a day and like wejust show up and we do it yeah,
that's possible all right.
Well, maybe we'll talk aboutthat.
Um again, there are more ideasthan there are hours in the day
right.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Yeah, it's good to have ideas and throw them around
.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
Yeah, why not?
I mean, I think the mostimportant thing that could come
out of all of this is thatobviously we're living in a time
where there's a lot of tensionaround and there are a lot of
unknowns.
Really I haven't noticed, butbut we're gonna have to keep it
light, we're gonna have to stayengaged in a way that's you know
that's not the doom scrollingand this and that and and what
(48:11):
better way.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
I mean this is one of the other great things about
the arts is that you know it cankind of take us outside of that
realm of that life is going tohold a handbasket and kind of
introduce something new andunexpected, and we'll just need
to yeah, you got to keep, keepand I think it's important to
engage with not the doomscrolling but the doom and see
(48:34):
where the opportunities are tomake a difference and have
activate those um, and it'simportant also to get away from
that and do things that are likeyou say are light or fun or
yeah, yeah, and I guess that'snot.
That's not to um deny thatthere's bad stuff going right
(48:54):
and to some degree we'reimplicated in the bad stuff and
we need to take responsibilityfor our role in society and what
we do.
And so I don't think we canignore the bad stuff or just say
, oh it's bad, I don't want tolook at it.
We have to look at it, but thenwe have to do other things too.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
I mean, that's sort of the thing that the artists
can do is we can say this isanother, another channel through
, you know, the dark and stormyis to look it straight in the
eye and be in action inretaliation or whatever.
It is whatever.
So well cool, anything elsethat we haven't covered.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
No, that's everything I could ever think of.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
Well, I'm really glad I bumped into you.
Speaker 2 (49:42):
Yeah, this has been fun.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Well, we'm really glad I bumped into you.
Yeah, this has been fun.
Well, we'll see.
Hopefully.
The sound quality I think I gotmy mic turned around and your
voice is louder than mine, butwhatever, this will be great and
yeah, so look for us onartstormingorg and what's your
podcast?
Speaker 2 (49:58):
If you look, Coffee and Culture with Matthew Chase,
Daniel you can find it.
Or you can go to my website,chasedanielcom, and that has
links to all the different theLena, Wall and Axel and my own
artwork and all things.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
Excellent, cool, all right, well, we'll end it there.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Okay, thank you so much.
Thank you, lily.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Well, thanks for joining us today.
Please like and follow us onartstormingorg, where you'll
find a list of our shows, atranscript of this episode with
links to the guest page, as wellas our other projects.
Art Storming is brought to youand supported by Artbridge and
listeners like you.
Look for us on your favoritepodcast platforms.
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