ArtStorming the City Different: Ron & Dalit Holzman

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The Holzmans' work offers important lessons about resilience, creativity, and finding beauty in the discarded. Hear more about this father-daughter duo on this episode. 

Music for ArtStorming the City Different was written and performed by John Cruikshank.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Ever wonder what makes really creative people
tick?
Where do their ideas come from?
What keeps them energized?
What kinds of things get intheir way?
Is their life really as muchfun as it looks from the outside
?
Hello, I'm your host, liliPierpont, and this is
ArtStorming, a podcast about hownew ideas come to life and
become paintings, sculptures,plays or poems, performances or

(00:25):
collections.
Each episode, I'll chat with aguest from the arts community
and explore how the mostcreative among us stare down a
blank canvas or reach into thevoid and create something new.
Today, I'll be artstorming withRon and Delete Holtzman, a
father-daughter duo, who I metat the tail end of my first

(00:47):
season.
I thought I had already taped mylast episode, but then I walked
into a preview show at the CCAWaxman Gallery called
Conscientious Objecteur, and Iknew right away that I had to do
one more.
It's hard to describe what Isaw, but the space was filled
with these creations that, whilemade of machine parts, felt
absolutely alive.

(01:08):
It was like a steampunkwonderland.
These objects were mounted onthe wall, suspended from the
ceiling, like life-sizemarionettes, and the lighting of
each piece by these tiny littlespotlights gave each thing a
moment of its own.
Gave each thing a moment of itsown.
The individual works of artwere created by Ron Holtzman,

(01:31):
but the installation itself,created by his daughter, delete,
was a work of art in its ownright.
And then, the night of theopening, another dimension was
generated by the addition of allthese flesh and bone people
meandering through this forestof joyful objects.
It was magic and a wonderfultribute to the objects
themselves, as well as theartist who created them.
And so not only was this lastshow, you know, an incredible

(01:52):
thing to add on to the end ofseason one City Different, but
it's also the perfect segue toour next season, in which we'll
be discussing the topics oflineage, legacy and remembrance.
Be discussing the topics oflineage, legacy and remembrance.
I'm here with Dalit and RonHoltzman.
Father, daughter, I'm going tocall you a team, because you
really are a team.

(02:12):
I mean, I'm sitting in thisgarage right now, which is
hardly garage, is like not, itmight be the word for the
exterior of it, but it's agallery, and it is absolutely
sensational.
We are surrounded by Ron's workand since I've only gotten to
speak to you for a very fewminutes, I know so little about

(02:34):
how this whole thing came to be.
Has this been your property allthese years?

Speaker 2 (02:38):
No, actually, dorothy , my partner and I, we met in
1998.
And I had a one-man show at theEdith Lambert Gallery in Santa
Fe and she and I just hit it offand we just became friends.

(03:01):
She's a painter, sculptor, andso we had a lot of things in
common and so we started datingin 1998, 26 years ago.

Speaker 3 (03:16):
And Dad was living out in Lamy.
He was off-grid for how manyyears, dad, 25 years, 25 years
at the very end of the road.
So he was living out there.
And then this is Dorothy'shouse, we're right, right here,
and so they would spend, youknow, sort of four days a week
kind of together and do alltheir music things and their
in-town things, and then hewould go back out to lay me and
sculpt and she would be paintinghere.

(03:37):
Um, about 10 years ago theirhealth, dorothy's health, really
was not doing well.
She had broken her leg and hada stroke, and then Dad was
having his journey with cancerand the need for them to really
live together became evident.
So they combined homes andthat's why we're here.

Speaker 1 (03:59):
And that was 10 years ago, I guess.

Speaker 3 (04:01):
It was, it was well 14.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
Yeah 14.
So I can only imagine what itmust have been like to move all
of these bits and pieces.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
You know, it was something that I did gradually
because I saw that Dorothyneeded more of my care, so I
needed to spend more time withher and, as a consequence, the
garage, so to speak, became myworking area, spending more time
with Dorothy, and then,eventually I moved here because

(04:31):
it was too difficult to go backand forth all the time, so I
started incorporating my workhere in the garage.
Yeah, Well, I mean, it's amazingbecause you have all these bits
and pieces and I don't know, Ican't even fathom how you
catalog the bits and pieces youknow you really don't, because

(04:55):
what you do is I have to seeeverything physically so that I
know what I have and I know whatI have available, so that I
know what I have and I know whatI have available.
So it was more focusing on thespecific objects that I had, and

(05:21):
so I was more able toincorporate some of the parts
and put other things away that Ididn't need, so to speak.
So, as you can see around, Ihave a lot of things out which
were ideas or our ideas for newsculptures and these things kind
of.
They come to.
They come together very, veryquietly where I see two objects

(05:43):
and and I start to think interms of incorporating the two
objects together withoutdisturbing the integrity of each
object.

Speaker 1 (05:50):
Right, because you don't use any.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
I don't do any weld or anything.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
yeah, I wish the audience could see what I'm
looking at, because the Well youcall yourself, the show is
called Conscientious Objecteur,which I just love because in
French there's the bricoleur,which is the term that is for
somebody who collects lots ofall kinds of different things.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
You know what I think it is.
These things become kind ofenigmatic to me where I look at
an object and I think to myselfthis is a beautiful object.
I don't want to disturb theintegrity of the object, but by
the same token, if you haveseveral objects and you want to
put them together, it's kind oflike a gentle union, if you will

(06:33):
, even though when you have theunion it's still very temporary,
because all these things can betaken apart, so everything is,
so to speak, in a temporarystate, if you will.
So when you put these thingstogether, they kind of become
somewhat permanent and it justopens up your ideas as to what

(06:59):
it looks like to you.
And the secondary thing is,you're not concerned about what
it looks like to somebody else,you're more concerned how it
feels to you.
And the secondary thing isyou're not concerned about what
it looks like to somebody else,you're more concerned how it
feels to you.
Somebody else looking at it issecondary to how I feel about an
object, because I might seesomething that somebody else
might not see at all.

(07:20):
You know, because it maybe itforms, it's a recollection of
the past, so to speak, wherethat reminds me of this and that
reminds me of that, and it'skind of like an amalgamation of
these things coming together butthere's something meta going on
here, because Dalit can respondto it.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
I didn't know anybody at that show who wasn't having
a really viscerally joyfulexperience, because there's a
quality of joyfulness in yourwork.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
That gives me the greatest pleasure.
Let me tell you an instance.
During the show, two gentlemencame up people in their, I think
, probably in their 70s, and oneof the fellows saw my pieces
and one of the fellas saw mypieces and he kind of like, he

(08:11):
went into kind of euphoria andhe was saying to me I've been
collecting all my life and hereI see these objects together.
And you know what he said youmade my year and he's a sculptor
.
It was so touching, it was likethe highlight of the show was

(08:32):
when he said that, because Irealized that I touch other
people besides myself.

Speaker 1 (08:39):
Oh, and you absolutely do.
And how long have you beensharing your work?

Speaker 2 (08:45):
Probably 50 years, over 50 years, I guess.
A lot of it started when I wasliving in Israel.
I was having a really hard timesleeping at night and I had a
lot of these objects and Istarted putting these things
together and what it did?

(09:07):
It calmed my spirit.
Oh yeah, so I think that's whenit really all started.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
Well, and you just hit on something, because when
it calms your spirit, that'swhat's so infectious, and I
think that that because to haveliterally so many objects that
really they all relate to eachother in that calming spirit way
and in that joyful way, buteach individual object is a
total, standalone object, and tobe able to put all of these in

(09:39):
one space and have them inconversation with each other,
and so that's kind of your gig,you, you're the one who, who
puts the dinner party together,right, right, yeah, they're all
having a big party, they'rehaving a big conversation so say
a little bit more about how yougot involved with your dad's
process.

Speaker 3 (09:59):
I mean, you know just the collection aspect as a
little kid like when we were,when we lived in the dc area
we'd go to the Potomac River andwe'd walk our dog.
That's when Dad was starting tofind a lot of the wood that's
there on the wall.
We would just collect thosepieces and he started putting
things together.
It was always Dad's realm andit was so magical.

(10:25):
As I got older, of course, Ikind of took it for granted in a
sense, and then as I got older,I really understood.
I was like, oh wow, he's a realartist, it's really real.
And my dad does enjoy smokingweed and I thought if I just
smoke weed I'll be able to do it.

(10:48):
I'll just be able to have themagic of the finding of them,
you know, the magic kind ofthing, coming together and in
fact that's not the case, youknow it's.
It's so much more than that.
He's his ability to be able tofind things.
Like if we go out on a walkwhen he looked in Lamy, we'd
walking along and he'd just likebend down and there'd be like a
tiny arrowhead, or he's alwaysbeen that way he has an absolute

(11:09):
magic for finding things, andso to be able to just I don't
know, like not in the way thathe doesn't force the union with
things, for me it's like I don'tknow.
I mean, I don't know.
You know, when I was going intothe space at CCA to hang that
show it was, I had no real likefloor plan I had.

(11:32):
I kind of had a sense of liketwo, two pieces really like, and
I knew I'd, you know, be a wall.
Maybe I'd want to have some,but it was really like okay,
I've got three days and I haveto trust myself, and then the
quality of the work and then myphysical and functional ability,
which is, I have to say, someof these pieces are large and, I

(11:55):
imagine, quite heavy, and theydance as if they have no weight
to them at all.

Speaker 1 (12:00):
Right, right, I mean, they have a gravitas to them,
but without heaviness, that'sright.
And yet you're a petite woman.
I mean, you were up there onladders.
I saw you as you were takingthe show down.
This was athletic.

Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yeah, it was yeah, but thankfully that's part of my
little wheelhouse that I have.
So, yeah, it was perfect.
It's like, yeah, dad's got hismagic and I have my magic and it
all works and it's interestingbecause, yeah, it's.
It's really only been what dad,like, I think like in the last
10 years, where sometimes youknow he'll be like ask me about

(12:38):
a piece you know, and that's,that's been new that's been
something, but I've embraceddelete more in my thoughts about
things in the last 10 years.
Yeah yeah, and the process andwe've like, because of all of
the medical things, like Ididn't end up growing up with my
dad and it's really been likewe started spending more, as is

(12:59):
with most kids.
You start having more qualitytime when, like after you're 18,
right, it's like as you'rebecoming a young adult, you're
actually forming a realrelationship, and so that was
happening.
But then with the whole medicaljourney, um for for his body
sort of falling apart, his face,all of these things, like you

(13:20):
know, my dad is like almost bledout in my arms a couple of
times, you of times looking intomy eyes, and so what you end up
finding in yourself and in yourrelationship is a whole new
level.
And so I think that's the thing.
It's like there's no—we're bothvery strong individuals and we

(13:44):
just really trust each other.
I think that we recognize whateach other's beautiful strengths
are and yeah, I mean and thatwe're family.
There's so many aspects ofmyself that I like just love and
that I know that they come frommy father.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
So the space of being able to just allow for that
beautiful kind of interactionwell, and then there's a third
component to this, which are thepieces themselves, and you're
breathing life into theseobjects over and over again.
That's got to be like an entrypoint or an access to

(14:22):
life-givingness for you for sureyou, I think, when you're
working with old objects.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
These objects were used for something in mind and
they were designed for theutility of what they were
designed for.
But by the same token, therewas a kind of a the artistic
side of the object, that whenyou take these pieces apart,

(14:53):
you're still feeling the energyof people that use these things
in their hands.
So I think a lot of that energygets trapped in the objects.
Let me tell you an example.
I had the fortune, great fortune, of meeting a very famous man
about 15 years ago, murrayGell-Mann.

(15:17):
He was the Nobel Prize winnerof inventing the quark and I met
him at a Christmas dinner atPenn LaForge.
He's a writer here in Santa Fe,and so he and I a gentleman
probably.
He was in his late 70s at thetime I started expounding my

(15:42):
feelings about these objectsthat I was working with and he
was listening to me and what wasamazing was that I had his
attention and he probablythought I was totally nuts, but
he was still taking in what Iwas saying because I was trying
to reiterate my feelings towardthese objects, because I was

(16:05):
trying to reiterate my feelingsfor these objects, how they come
about and how I feel towardthem.
So it was really a very Istarted being more introspective
about the objects that I wasworking with, because I actually
feel the energy from theseobjects and that's probably

(16:26):
where it all started where Ihave an object in my hand and I
can feel the energy still inthat object.

Speaker 3 (16:35):
Yeah, and the beauty of components.
I mean it's just like you know.
That's the thing aboutmechanical Like.
You know, like this, like thisis nothing, but like I mean,
like to me I was just looking atthat before thing about
mechanical like, even like this,like this is nothing, but like
I mean, like to me, I was justlooking at that before it's like
tiny, it's a face, it's alizard, like there's just so
much and it's just so, it's sopretty, it's like nothing, but
it's not nothing, right?

(16:55):
I just think.
And then there's so many thingsother than something like that.
You know, it's there's just andit's also and they can't be
used anymore, right, it's also.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
It's a recollection of the past, because we don't
deal with these objects anymore.
We're dealing in plastics, sothe whole concept of objects has
changed, if you will.
Things are much moreutilitarian, they're going to
last forever, type of thing,whereas long in these old pieces

(17:28):
they came from a fleeting past,if you will.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
Well, I mean to get a little quantum physical about
it.
I mean, here we've got thesematerial objects, mechanical
objects, you were just saying,and yet you are creating
absolute poetry with them.
There's nothing mechanicalabout the final product and so
you've figured out a way to youknow.
It said once particle and waveit's.

(17:56):
You know it's this beautifultransformation and it just must.
It reflects so much.
It makes me feel like I knowyou because you're somebody who
can take the mechanical and turnit into bullshit.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
My soul is very much open to that, for sure.

Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, and I think that your willingness to do that
out loud is what gives peopleaccess to this.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah, and it also makes me feel somewhat
vulnerable, if you will, becausebut that's not important to me
the thing is that I'm still ableto express myself in a way that
I wish to express myself, sonothing.
So there's nothing reallyholding me back in my expression

(18:45):
.
Sometimes, when I'm workingwith an object, I think to
myself don't over-embellish,because sometimes if you
over-embellish, you kind of missthe point of what you're trying
to get at, and sometimes I havea little difficulty with that.

(19:05):
Just don't overdo it, you know,because it's overdoing it to
myself, not about somebody elselooking at it, type of thing.
Sure, it's what feelscomfortable with me within me.
Well, that must be sointeresting.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
I think the only thing I can possibly relate it
to is getting dressed in themorning and putting on
accessories and then taking themoff because you got too many
things going.
But so how do you decide whenthe pieces must speak to you?

Speaker 2 (19:35):
Oh yeah.
So you're in dialogue with thesepieces which so many artists
have shared.
You know, sometimes when you'reworking with one piece it's
coming to you just like you'rewriting beautiful music.
Other times you have to kind ofput it aside because what it is
is too overwhelming for you atthe time that you're working

(19:58):
with it.
So sometimes what you're doingin order to circumvent that
you're working with maybe two orthree objects in the same
evening, let's say so that yourmind is still working on
different objects, but you'remuch more relaxed, if you will,
because you don't want to forcethe issue.

(20:21):
That's the important thing isnot to feel that you're forcing
it, making it too contrived, ifyou will.
But I don't have really a hardtime with that.
Periodically, maybe once in ablue moon type of thing, and
what it does.

(20:41):
It makes you scratch your headand be a little bit skeptical,
but that's okay because then youcan look back, Because no time
element doesn't come into thesethings at all, Because the time
is inconsequential, Because thepleasure you're getting and the

(21:02):
comfort of your spirit duringthe time that you're doing it,
that's the most important thingto you.

Speaker 1 (21:07):
yeah well, when you're looking at a piece that
you've made long ago, or evensome time ago in the, when you
look at it, do you, are you ableto get into the headspace that
you were in when you were makingit?
Or oh yeah, so it does take youback to that story?

Speaker 2 (21:24):
For sure, because when I look at these objects I
look at my history and where Iwas at the time that I created
these things.
So it's essentially it's adiary of my life's work, if you
want to call it that, becauseit's a compendium of my thought

(21:46):
processes and how things wereaffecting me at the time,
wherever I was, you know.
So it's like when I look atthese things I can say, oh, I
can remember that when Deletewas five or six years of age and
we found these two objects inthe barn in Maryland, and we
found these two objects in thebarn in Maryland.

(22:06):
So a lot of these things are,they're my living history, so to
speak.
You know what it is, lily.
It's nostalgia in a really goodway.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
In a good way.
Yeah, yeah, and so do you havethe same experience, or do you
remember?
Are there certain pieces thatfreeze you in time and it takes
you back to when your dadfinished that piece, or because
you were involved a little bitlater on?
There's a lot of stuff herethat.

Speaker 3 (22:34):
The ones that are, yeah, of the last 10 years,
absolutely, yeah, like some ofthe wood that's here are things
that you know I collected off ofislands, you know, around the
vancouver area, you know we'd goout in the little boat and I'd
get up on the stand-uppaddleboard and go over and
collect wood and so, yeah, thatfrom my own personal and like

(22:54):
interaction with some of thematerials, yes, but then, yeah,
and there's some pieces in herethat my dad like kind of put
together there was like fivethat he did in a very short span
of time when they first movedup to Vancouver for half the
year, each year, and that was anextraordinary exciting time,
yeah, so there are some the onesthat are really older, you know

(23:18):
, like Hope Springs, eternalthat's right over there, the one
on the big spring, or this oneMystified by the Recipes, the
one with the really big.
That's nostalgic to me.
That reminds me of our dog,daphne.
It reminds us both of our dog,our Dalmatian, that we had.
She was 18 when she passed away, so you know we got her when I

(23:40):
was three.
So, yeah, there's definitelyaspects, but you know it's, it's
interesting.
It's interesting, having beenaround item objects, that I
wasn't in the process, I didn'tcreate them, so they've kind of
like, they're just, kind of, ina sense, I mean I love them but

(24:01):
like their family, they're just,they've.
They've been here always, so Idon't even know it's.
It's so interesting because I,at the show, so many people were
like, wow, you were sofortunate to be able to grow up
in the environment of havingsuch a creative father and to
have such whimsy, and I actuallynever thought about it.

(24:22):
I really never was like, yeah,it just was always what it was.
I never, it never kind ofdawned on me.
And then, you know, I wasjournaling about it after people
were saying that and I was like, yeah, of course, of course it
was wonderful, right, and alsoeverything else that was going
on in life and all of thedynamics of everybody and the

(24:44):
family and all that stuff withthe human family.
So it's interesting, think I myentire personality is very
geared toward wanting otherpeople to be able to see my
dad's work, because I know howmuch it's magic and so that's
I'm, I'm a, I'm a real doer, Ireally move forward and so and I

(25:08):
know that that's kind of how Iinteract with it, of just being
like other people must other.
You know it's incumbent upon meas an only child.

Speaker 1 (25:18):
Other people well, I think, when you, when you grow
up with I love the use of theword whimsy, because when you
grow up with whimsy and you gointo the world and you expect
the world to be whimsical andyou see that it's not, then you
get this appreciation for the,the magical world that is here,
yeah, and I can totally see youwanting to kind of pull people
in because of the.

(25:38):
It's such, such a nourishingenvironment and there's so few
places we can go that are fullof stuff, especially mechanical
objects, and find suchnourishment right and it's not.

Speaker 3 (25:50):
I think that's the thing.
It's like, as much as there'slike the meta, as you said, of
it and like the data said, likehe's gotten introspective.
At the end of the day, this isjust fun, right, and this is
like these come together.
It's a lot of.
It is kind of having a sense ofhumor about oneself.
You know, there's just, it'sjust silly, it's kind of silly,
but it's not silly.

(26:10):
Right, it's just, but it's it'slight and and and makes its
mental health it's playful.
Yeah, yes, it's like it's just,but it's it's light and and and
makes its mental health it'splayful.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah, yes, it's like it's definitely art as medicine
in a way, totally yeah.

Speaker 3 (26:22):
And to me, like my entire feeling in my life at
this point, at 50, is sort oflike if, if thing, unless it's
falling in my lap, then it'slike everything that's falling
in my lap is the path right.
It's just, it's got to be thatobvious, and that's what I feel
like for my dad.
It's like if the things arelike oh, you are meant to be
together, like there it is, andI, I just it's so, it's so easy,

(26:46):
and I'm just being like, oh,this is fun, oh, this is fun, oh
this.
And so the whimsy yeah, it is,it's whimsy and it's, um, yeah,
and it's just likesy and itsyeah, and it's just like
lightness, it's just humor, alot of humor in the family.
You know what?

Speaker 2 (27:00):
I think it is really, when you come down to it, we
must not take ourselves tooseriously.
You know because I think that'sprobably where I am is that as

(27:21):
long as I can have a smile on myface, that's the most important
thing, Because having a smileon your face frees you up,
totally, Totally.
So I think that not takingoneself too seriously is is the
key to it all, you know yeah,well, that playfulness is

(27:41):
something that you know, I think, we appreciate.

Speaker 1 (27:43):
The older we get, the more we appreciate this, this
notion of playfulness and theharder it is to necessarily get
back to that yeah because we getso layered and burdened and and
yet again, you show us that allof these could be construed as
burdens, but you turn them ontheir head and it's kind of like
the.
Tao of poo.
It's like just another lovely,blissful day.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
For sure.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
And it connects and the piece that I got from you
right now.
I haven't hung it yet.
It's still on my coffee table,kind of as a almost like a large
paperweight, but it makes mesmile every darn time I look at
it.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
Now I want to tell you something about that piece.
Yeah, Dorothy and I went to seeTosca at the Metropolitan Opera
in New York.

Speaker 1 (28:38):
Was it Pavarotti?

Speaker 2 (28:42):
Luciano Pavarotti, and that was his swan song, that
was his last opera.
So, anyway, while we were there, I walked past Steinway and I
went into Steinway and there wasa fellow working there, an

(29:05):
older gentleman, and I saidwould you have any of the pedals
from pianos that you don't need?
And he said, yes, that's whereone of the pieces came.

(29:27):
Those pedals came from Steinwayin New.

Speaker 3 (29:29):
York, so he brought out like a box of them.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
Yeah, I did.

Speaker 3 (29:34):
I gave him a hundred dollars and he gave me a whole
bunch of pedals, and that's howthey're matching sets yeah, so
then that's how it started andthat's really unusual because
dad, it's a, it's actually aseries, and dad never really has
anything cast, but he had theface of them all cast, so
they're all identical.
There's another one over there,actually, um, and with

(29:55):
different pedals.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah, well, you want to know what's so amazing about
that, speaking of crazy things.
So a dear friend of mine, whohappens to be on my executive
board, made a documentary calledthe making of a steinway,
really, and so he followed thethe process from start to finish
of the making of steinwaypianos and the artists who would
come into theway and play onthem and everything.

(30:19):
And so, from you know, now Ihave to.
I can't wait to show them thatpiece.

Speaker 2 (30:22):
I mean that's kind of a full circle.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
That is just incredible.
That is incredible.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
Let me tell you something else.
On the back of that piece Isigned it with my mother's
maiden name, r Rose.
You'll see R-O-S-E on it and itwas really.
My history is kind of aninteresting history, if you have

(30:49):
time to listen to, of course.
I was born in London in 1936.
1939, the war started and so Ihad a brother two years older
and a sister three years olderTwo years older than him Than I.

(31:11):
So the war started in 1939.
My father was conscripted intothe army and they started
bombing England and mom and daddecided they had to do something
with the kids because there wasall this anti-Semitism that was
going on in Europe.

(31:32):
So they decided in 1940 thatthey would ship us out to South
Africa.
So my mother, my brother and Iand my sister, we went to South
Africa in 1940.
We spent the war years inJohannesburg and the interesting

(31:56):
thing about this my history isthat what they were doing when
the war started they got thekids out of the cities.
They sent them to small townsin Scotland and Wales and
Ireland just to get them out ofthe city.
So what happened was peoplewent out to Canada, to Brazil,

(32:25):
to South Africa when the warstarted.

Speaker 3 (32:29):
It was during you ended up in boarding school as a
child.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
No, well, no.
So what happened?
So we 1940, we went out.
It was the beginning of theBattle of Britain, so they were
bombing England and so we wentout of South Africa and the ship
that was following us wastorpedoed.
But anyway, we got to SouthAfrica and the ship that we were

(32:56):
on six months later it wastorpedoed.
So why I'm telling you thisstory is because the government
was not paying for you to getout of town.
You had to find your own way,so to speak.
So I had a very famous greataunt, my mother's auntie, and

(33:20):
she was an opera singer inEurope.
She was a well-known operasinger and she was given a
diamond by one of the royalty Ithink it was Franz Josef.
So she bequeathed that diamondto my sister, to my mother and
my mother's sister.
My mother's sister was livingin Johannesburg, so my mother

(33:44):
sold her share of the diamond toher sister so we would have
passage to be able to get toSouth Africa.
That's how we got out ofEngland during the war.
That's crazy.
So I think what happened duringthis time?
We were living in South Africafor five years very, very

(34:06):
comfortably.
There was plenty of food, therewas no rationing and we got
back to England and I was likenine years of age and that's
when I had the hardest time inmy life because there was so
much anti-Semitism going on inEngland this is after the war

(34:26):
that I was going to school everyday and getting beaten up every
day in school.
So they put my brother and I inboarding school and the
boarding school was run by a.
It was a Jewish boarding schoolbut all the teachers were Irish
Catholics, so the disciplinewas terrible, terrible, and so

(34:53):
it was kind of a time in my lifewhere I really felt ostracized.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
Yeah, and then we came to Montreal and Canada in
1948 so when you say we, thatwas still your parents and your
siblings came to.

Speaker 3 (35:09):
Montreal, yeah his dad was gone fighting for 7
years.
I didn't see him for sevenyears, so it was just mom and
his brother, and then Julie,your sister.
How much older was she, papa?

Speaker 2 (35:23):
She was four years older than I, four years older
than you, but it was a verytraumatic time in my life and it
took me many years to be ableto resolve it, if you will.
So I think a lot of thesethings in my creative experience
, if you will, I think there waskind of maybe some it had

(35:44):
something to do with it.
If you will, yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:47):
Sorry, you should talk about the gas mask
situation.
I'm always just amazed by that.

Speaker 2 (35:52):
You talk about the gas mask situation.
I'm always just amazed by that.
When I was three years of age,my brother and I were at home he
was five and a man cameknocking at the door.
He was an air raid warden andhe was dressed with a gas mask
on his face and to a three and afive-year-old kid it looked

(36:13):
like he came from Mars.
It was such a terrible,traumatic experience for both of
us.

Speaker 3 (36:21):
And then you had to have your own gas masks.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah, so as an aside to the story not a story, this
preamble, if you want to call it, that is that everybody had to
have a gas mask, no ifs, ands orbuts.
So if you left your house youhad your box with your gas mask,

(36:46):
Everybody, everybody.
If you were out without yourgas mask, the warden would come
to you and fine you on the spotand he would sell.
He would sell you a gas mask onthe spot and you had to pay for
it.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
They would fine you the price of a gas mask.
You would have to buy it thenand there.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
So the gas masks were made until 1954.
This is 9 years after the war.
Right, and what they werefinding was the people that were
making the gas masks were dyingof cancer because the gas masks

(37:29):
were made with asbestos and thekids ones they were Mickey
Mouse masks were made withasbestos, and the kids ones were
Mickey Mouse.

Speaker 3 (37:40):
So you're three years old, the filters were asbestos
Asbestos, of course.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
So this is a looking back during the pandemic.
This whole issue with wearingmasks, not wearing masks right,
and I said to myself this is anational emergency, everybody

(38:03):
should wear a mask.
No ifs, ands or buts, becausethey didn't know when the war
started in 1939 that the Germanswere going to drop poison gas
over the population in England.
So here we are in a pandemicwhere Dorothy and I what was

(38:28):
happening?
We were doing a world cruise.
We were going from Miami to SanFrancisco all the way around.
It was a 170-day.
It was an incredible cruise.
What happened In the middle ofthe cruise?
They forcibly took us off theboat in Canberra, Australia, we

(38:49):
didn't even have masks.
We were in such a panic andeverybody I mean because nobody
knew what this whole pandemicwas about, whether you could
contract it from your next doorneighbor or whomever you so
everybody was in a panic.
So it was like a flashback tothe time when the war started in

(39:15):
1939 in England, whereeverybody had to wear masks, had
to carry gas masks.
So it was like what's thequestion here?
If you have to do it, you haveto do it.
There shouldn't even be aquestion about it type of thing
you know.

Speaker 1 (39:31):
Well, what's astounding to me is that such a
traumatic situation in memory inyour life and yet I mean a lot
of these characters almost looklike they're wearing gas masks
and yet there's anything buttrauma or terror emitting from
any of these things.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
You know what I think it is.
You turned it around.
I think it's a liberation.
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
For sure, because this whole story about the gas
masks gives me a whole differentaccess to all of these
characters?

Speaker 2 (40:04):
Yeah, because that was a huge trauma in my life.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
I certainly understand.
Wow, wow and wow.
You must have gotten reallywhat happened after.
Now I have to know how you gotback safely to the United States
from Canberra.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
We stayed there for two weeks.
Dalit was organizing this fromCanada.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
It was nuts.
Yeah, it was.
Yeah, I was.
And yeah, yeah, I was fucked up.
Yeah, I mean, because they well, where was it done?
You guys were at sea for howlong, like they wouldn't let you
die 70 days, 70 days withoutthem, first class yeah, I mean,
that's what was nuts right isthat they were doing this really
off the hook?
And I'm just like God.
The whole world is shuttingdown, dad, the whole world is

(40:54):
shutting down.
You guys are living, you know,because remember the whole
cruises there were some thatwere like sick wards and people
were like dying and theywouldn't let them ashore because
they were quarantined.
I mean, everyone was healthy onthis boat and so it was like dad
, you guys are in a very luckysituation, right, and you're,
and you're, and you're firstclass.
Like the world is not firstclass right now, like good luck
getting toilet paper, and so,yeah, when they finally I think

(41:17):
it was Perth right when they letyou off, and so and not
Canberra.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 (41:22):
Perth, perth.
And so it was, it was, it wasnuts for me to be trying to
prepare my father for what wasabout to happen.
You know, I said dad, dad, youknow, there's no, no groceries.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
and dorothy was already in a wheelchair dorothy
was really were you here takingcare of dorothy, or were he?
Dorothy was with my dad.

Speaker 3 (41:39):
Yeah, and so that, and that was the thing too is
like because her, her care, likeshe was needing more help with,
you know, with food, and so youknow it was wasn't assisted
living, but it was kind of likeassisted living on the ocean
right for like five months orwhatever.
So, um, so it was, like youknow, lovely lap of luxury,
wonderful travel.
They're huge world travelstravelers like in their lives

(42:01):
Dorothy went to like 180countries in her life, dad like
not many fewer than that, um,and so it was just a way for
them to be able to continuetravel, even though her health
was declining, um, and to beable to have the help.
And so, no, I was in vancouverin canada, and uh, and so I was
just trying to describe to mydad what was going to be

(42:21):
happening when they were gettingoff the boat and I just said,
look, you know, no, groceries,like I, I had found where there
was a convenience store.
They were going to get an uber.
You know I had scheduled theuber that was going to pick them
up at the, at the cruiseterminal, take them to an airbnb
, like dad had never evenchecked into an airbnb before.
So, and of course, everythingwas remote and even more remote

(42:43):
now because of so I'm trying todescribe the dystopian universe
that he's about to step into.
So I'm like there's aconvenience store, I've called
ahead.
There's milk.
If you can find someblueberries, like there's going
to be, hopefully some dry cereal, that's all you guys are going
to have for a minute.
Like there's nothing that'sopen, you're going to be brought
to.
You know the, the Airbnb, thisis how you check in.

(43:04):
You know he got Dorothy there.
He layered down on the bed, sothen he and then he had to go
out and get cash out of themachine.
He, you know he's like.
Now I mean again, it's like,and now he's in a hot
environment like this isaustralia.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
You know he's run down and I had to rent a car had
yeah, had to go, yeah, so hadto go get cash.

Speaker 3 (43:25):
So, like I'm I'm looking at where my dad is on
the find my iphone and he's gotthe camera on so I can tell him
okay, walk to that nextintersection, you're going to
take a right and then you'rejust, you know, to be able to
get him to an ATM to describe tohim how to use the ATM.
That's going to be safe becausenobody's touching anything.
Right, I mean, everyone's nutsat that point about like don't
touch anything, um, and you know, and then of course, we hadn't,

(43:49):
like informed the bank, andthen, of course, we hadn't
informed the bank, so then hecouldn't get the cash and then
he had to go get the car.
So I mean, my dad isunbelievably resourceful and
flexible, but at 84 years old,it's like Jesus Christ, you know
, you're getting really—this isa lot of stress to be throwing
at a human being.
So now he's got a right-handdrive vehicle, which my dad has

(44:12):
had experience on another humanbeing.
So now he's got a right handdrive vehicle, which my dad has
had experience on.
But again, when you're jugglingeverything else, it's like
lagged and and it's just allthis stuff right, and just like
the shock.
I mean, you know, you rememberwhat it was like.
But we all kind of graduallywent down to understanding the
gravity of the situation.
They literally were in the mostridiculous you know, not normal
even for them situation in thisfirst class.

(44:34):
So it's nuts and so, yeah,that's how we're managing it.
I would wake up in the morning,it would be their bedtime.
I'd be right, you know, when I,in the nighttime, I'd call them
, it was their morning and Iwould arrange the food for the
day with uber eats to drop offfor them.
I had groceries but theycouldn't come for an entire week
and you know how it was.
We were all thinking it wasgoing to end.
So it's like, okay, stay maybefor two weeks, we'll see how

(44:56):
it's going to be.
And then Australia was theanybody that was trying that
they were going to go stay,cause I was like, well, maybe
you guys should head to the bush, like just kind of wait it out
in a more chill environment,right.
And I got in touch with someplaces there like to rent, you
know short-term things, and theywere like, you know, we want to
know what they're coming from,what they came off of a cruise.

(45:17):
No way Like people were sayingabsolutely not to people that
were coming off of cruises.
And it was like, oh Lord, youknow, and Dorothy really was at
the point where she didn't wantto be flying at all anymore and
I just said, dad, like you know,I was thinking about flying
there.
I was because I'm a US and aCanadian citizen.

(45:37):
I had the ability to kind of toat least travel between those
two countries, so I'd be likethe only person in all of
Albuquerque airport, I would beone of four people on a plane,
you know flying.
I'd be the only person at theborder into the United States,
at Peace Arch in Vancouver, likea huge part across.
It was crazy times.

(45:58):
But so then I was like, shouldI fly to Australia?
No, that'll be insane.
And we all felt like we wereall putting our lives at risk
too.
It's like we were all veryscared at that time, and so I
was like, dad, you guys aregoing to have to do this.
So they did 30 hours of travel,the two of them, and what was

(46:18):
nuts is that they got to theairport.
I had the whole itinerary inorder to come through.
I think they were comingthrough San Francisco and it was
going to be this crazy level,all this crazy Perth, sydney,
perth, sydney, sydney to SanFrancisco and then to here to
Albuquerque.
And so he, they get to theairport Again, they're like the
only ones at the airport inPerth and it's late at night.

(46:42):
He's got Dorothy in thewheelchair and five suitcases,
huge suitcases, from being on acruise around the world that was
supposed to be for five months.
So he's got this, he's got thewheelchair.
He needs to bring back the car.
He's gone to bring back the car.
Nobody's at the desk.
Some elder woman sees him,tries to help out.
Is then helping with the andcorrect me if I'm wrong with it,

(47:05):
but then it is is helping himto be able to get to, you know,
the terminal.
Get to the terminal, theairport, the airline has
shuttered business just then.
And there to the terminal, theairport, the airline has
shuttered business just then.
And there the airline.
So guess they're not flying out.
Oh, and I had informed, I hadsuggested, I'd counseled my
father that he should probablytake an out of van, and that's
so, should Dorothy, because thisis going to be an asshole of a

(47:28):
travel right.
So they'd done that.
So now they're feeling chilland like, and now they're stuck
there, no car, they've you know,five suitcases Like.
So somehow my dad I mean I, I'mlike I would have had a nervous
breakdown if I was 30 in thatsituation to be this age, the
age that they were and andsomehow we managed, you know got
back to the house so they hadbeen renting and then they left

(47:50):
the next day, the 30 hours oftravel, you know, and just like
flashbacks of what that time waslike.
Right, you know, I went down toAlbuquerque, pick them up, put
them in the back seat, you know,open up all the windows because
we were all thinking we wereall going to be contaminated.
I got my mask on.
Right, of course.

(48:10):
Get to Santa Fe, get here, gethere.
Also, I had been here for threedays.
Their water heater hadcompletely busted, like there
were internal issues.
So it somehow, again in SantaFe, miraculously, people came
and like everything was we'regood to go, we have a working
house again, and so, you know, Iget them in and I strip them
down.
You know, in the shower, like,get it.

(48:32):
You know, it's like theinsanity of the time.
Like, take their clothes inlike a garbage bag.
And you know, like with a mask,put them into the washing
machine, and so on.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
Yeah, everybody was in paranoia.
You know, it was unbelievable,we were all nuts.

Speaker 3 (48:44):
Remember we'd get mail and we'd like put it in the
freezer Right right, yeah, Imean I do, yeah, I mean, I do, I
actually do.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
And you know what that was all about, lily.
We had a president who didn'teven look at Fauci with any
respect, and so he was creatinga lot of this angst that people
had.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:08):
I mean, yeah, and I have to say that in the back of
my mind, as I'm hearing you tellthe story, I'm thinking this is
how somebody who is, you know,infinitely resilient, who has
the capacity to think out of thebox, and you know, it's like,
if not for your ability to work,like with whatever you're given

(49:32):
, I mean and that is one of thereasons I feel like having
access to our creativity andhaving that as a muscle that we
use all the time.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
For sure, it's a strength, it's imperative, for
sure.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
And it's just like we have a religious practice or a
physical practice athleticpractice.

Speaker 3 (49:50):
Having a creative practice builds that resiliency
to us, and there's no way thatthat wasn't a horrific scene, no
matter what, but I can onlyimagine had you not had the
flexibility and limberness to dothat.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
But you know, something in the history of this
country, it was always we wereable to.
It was can-do.
We were able to do these thingsat one time where, you know, we
had Rosie the Riveter, we hadall these people that were able
to work it out.
I think we've lost a lot ofthat.

Speaker 3 (50:28):
We're starting.
Some of it, I think, isstarting to atrophy, and I think
it is.
It's so important too.
One thing when we were talkingbefore about the idea of like
stepping away from somethingthat might be a conundrum in
terms of how it comes togetherDad and I, we both do crossword
puzzles and sometimes when I'mdealing with some of the hard,
hard ones, harder ones, and I'mstuck and it's funny, I'll be

(50:51):
lying kind of in bed and I'll belying kind of in bed and I'll
be falling asleep and all of asudden the answers come to me
and it's like that space ofbeing relaxed and being
disconnected.
I think that allows for thatplasticity and the creativity to
come.
And, as we know, you know, theidea of being disconnected and
relaxed and away frominformation is something that
people I don't even think youknow.

(51:12):
The idea of prioritizing that,I think, is becoming potentially
less and less.
Yeah, I'm kind of hoping thatthere might be a pendulum swing
back, because we've gotten sofar away from that Right right.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
That and especially, even with the introduction of AI
, I think that this idea ofhaving, you know, a face-to-face
conversation, and even thoughthis conversation is going to be
conveyed over technologyironically I choose to do it
without images and not in avideo format because I think
that ear-to-brain connection ofthe storytelling and the

(51:43):
storytelling and a lot of what'sbeing revealed in this panel
discussion thing that I'm doingis this swing back towards
makers and storytelling, and Ithink that that's such an
important component Sharinginformation.
Yeah, and sharing, absolutely,absolutely.
So there's a part of me thatwants to just pick randomly an

(52:04):
object and have you say a littlebit about it.
Would that feel comfortable, Imean, or maybe you could pick an
object, or maybe, delene, I'llmake you pick the object, that's
even better, your dad's lookingat me.

Speaker 3 (52:18):
Papa, what, which, which object?
Yeah, I mean like kind of, Ithink.
I think usually what happens isthat people want to know kind
of what the components are, likea little bit about it or how it
kind of came together, and thatsort of thing that's marvelous.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
I mean, it sort of reminds me of a pirate.
Since we've been on the greatseas, that might be kind of yeah
that's the Oryx of Napoleon.

Speaker 3 (52:37):
Dad, you want to talk about that over here?

Speaker 2 (52:40):
You know, I think what it is is that it's made of
different things.
The legs are from an Oryx yeah,I can see that and the Oryx.
The interesting thing about theOryx is that that Oryx was from
White Sands, New Mexico, and in1967, Saudi Arabia gave a herd

(53:08):
of Oryx to White Sands, NewMexico, and since 1967, they've
thrived.
They've thrived because theylove the desert climate and in
White Sands they're thriving.

Speaker 1 (53:25):
I have never even seen a picture of that, but what
an image.
These orcs on that white sand.
Oh, they're beautiful creatures, oh my.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
God, and I think probably what stands out with
the orcs are the horns.
They're beautiful creatures, ohmy God.
And I think probably whatstands out with the orcs are the
horns, because they're verystraight and they're very.
They look like legs to me.
So I think that that was thefirst thing that started with
that piece was that those arelegs and that's the end of it.

(53:54):
So the other, the goose, thegoose necks are from a chair and
when I saw that I could see theshoulders, I could see the arms
and it kind of it started.

(54:15):
The piece started comingtogether with that and the oryx
horns and then the piece on thetop, it's a.
So when I saw that I could seethat was Napoleon's tricolor,

(54:42):
the hat that he wore, and that'show, essentially how the piece
came together, because I had the, I had the concept, and the
other, the head, is a hat, mold,mold, and so it just came.
It came together very Magically, yeah, very gently, and that's

(55:08):
how it grew and that was.
I worked on that for quite awhile.
I mean, it was something that Ididn't do overnight type of
thing.
It was something that itgerminated over a period of time
.

Speaker 3 (55:23):
But other pieces, you know, there's one in the corner
.
It's like quite an exquisitepiece and I think it only took
Dad like three days.
I mean it was quick, quick.
It's funny how the time canjust vary.
It's like things just sort oflike come together and then, of
course, as things are comingtogether, you're like that's the
most exciting feedback.
You're like, oh my God.

Speaker 2 (55:48):
It's kind of strange how it happens, because when you
don't force something and ittakes, it kind of grows very,
very gently and it can sometimesgerminate overnight when the
whole piece comes together boomit happened.

Speaker 3 (56:09):
It's like Noelle says .
It's like life is not somethingto be fought, but it's like a
mystery to be revealed.
It's a mystery to be revealed.
It's like life is not somethingto be fought, but it's like a
mystery to be revealed.

Speaker 2 (56:15):
It's a mystery to be revealed Also, what it is.
It's a synchronicity, very mucha synchronicity of something
where it's meant to happen, typeof thing, without much forcible
thought behind it, type ofthing.

Speaker 1 (56:33):
Well, you, know, what I picture here is like the
workshop at night, and all thesepieces are coming together and
they're having conversationswith each other.
And I mean, it wouldn'tsurprise me in the least if you
said that you went to bed onenight and you came back and this
piece had migrated from thispart of the studio to this part
of the studio to be and thenlike Toy Story or something you

(56:56):
wake up, you open the doors andall of a sudden everybody
pretends to be quiet Becausethere is so much life force like
you said you can feel it, butit's not the least bit.
Woo-woo, it is absolutely likeyou're in the midst of a frozen
animation.
That is like as soon as youlook away, they're actually

(57:16):
moving.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
It's very strange.
It's not even enigmatic.
It's even more than enigmatic,because it seems like kind of a
predestiny, if you want to callit that.
You know, it's kind of, andit's a of, that's right, and
it's a very difficult thing toexplain how these things happen,

(57:41):
but sometimes they happen verymagically.
Yeah, you're right.

Speaker 3 (57:48):
It's funny too, because I think that's what?
Because there's other peoplewhose work kind of looks like
this-ish.
But it's funny because I don'tknow what it is.
It's like it's not the physicalfact that there's welding that
makes it feel forced, it's it'slike the whole the even bringing
in that concept is what makesit all of a sudden feel forced.

(58:08):
Yeah, where it's just like,where you can't just be like oh,
how are things magically goingto come together?
Because I'm just on a technicallevel, right, it's like if
things don't have the, you know,a thread to screw on, if there
isn't some build, it's not goingto happen Like end of story.
It's not like, oh, I'm going tomake it and it's going to.
Well, it's done.

(58:29):
It's like no, so it's funny, oh, it's funny.
Oh, it's kind of makes me thinkabout, like when I cook, right,
where I love, my favorite wayto cook is like whatever I have
in the refrigerator and justlike, then the magic happens.
Or like the concept of like,you know, if anything that you
grow in the garden in a certainseason, or that's that's from

(58:49):
the same region in the sameseason, is magic, it was meant
to be together and so, like, asyou're cooking, you're, there's
no thought about that.
It's going to be wrong becauseit has to be right yeah, like
that.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
That was that way.

Speaker 3 (59:02):
Yeah, they were like they were born together so it's
like I just feel like, it's likethat, it's like as an artist or
as a as as the you're just likea you're, you're like a
facilitator and nothing more.
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
Yeah, that's a good word.

Speaker 3 (59:18):
Yeah, so I don't.

Speaker 2 (59:19):
I don't Facilitator Right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (59:23):
So I don't know.
So it takes.
It takes away the pressure oflike it's like you're doing the
crossword puzzle.
It's like, well, it's going tohappen.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
There's that trust.
Interesting the facilitation, Ithink you're right.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
Well, I think so many of the artists that I've spoken
to have had the experience thatwhen they're in flow, they are
an instrument through whichsomething else is coming and
they just their arms make ithappen or somehow like that, and
writers and musicians talkabout that same experience.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
But you know, again, it's an easy thing to lose your
way, how so A lot of artistsfeel in a way, when they,
especially if they have galleryrepresentation, where they have

(01:00:20):
to kind of like exceed, if youwill, to the gallery owner
saying, if you do more of this,this will sell more.
So again, it's easilycorruptible and I think that a
lot of artists who rely oncreating their art get a little

(01:00:45):
bit corrupted because they'relooking toward having to sell
art, because everybody, thereality is the reality, the
gallery owner has to make money.
All these other things arethere.
They're kind of, in a way,preventing artists from being
totally.
It's like Gauguin he went off,I mean, where you have total

(01:01:10):
freedom, where you don't have tothink in terms of I gotta do
this in order, to terms of Igotta do this in order to get
that, I gotta do this in orderyeah, yeah so I think it's an
easily corruptible creativity,if you want to call it that yeah
, I can totally see that, andyou've had the privilege of not

(01:01:34):
doing that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
In fact, you know, at the last show you weren't even
charging, but you were.

Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
You were not pricing your no, I and I intentionally
did that on purpose, because Ididn't want to even think in
terms of.
I wanted people to enjoy mywork without thinking in terms
of buying or any of this otherstuff, because I thought it
would adulterate it a little bit.
The first night type of thingwhen I started creating my

(01:02:02):
objects, I was creating for oneperson, myself, so I was very,
very reticent to be able toshare them with other people.
You're still very, very selfishin a way, because I was doing
this for me, not for anybodyelse, and I think that's the

(01:02:27):
thing I've always felt.
When I create something, I'mnot creating for anybody but
myself, totally one on one,where I have no ulterior reason
for doing it other than my owninternal satisfaction.

Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
So when a piece does leave your family, I'm happy now
.

Speaker 2 (01:02:54):
Why?
Because I've come to a point inmy life where I want to share
my things with people.
So it's changed a lot in thesense that I feel that I'm much
more myself now, because I'mwilling to share, to share my

(01:03:15):
creations, if you world withother people and the concept of
like legacy, and well, I wasjust thinking that same word
just came to mind yeah, likewhat and what, what that kind of
means, and like.

Speaker 3 (01:03:26):
It's something that hit me as all of this was
happening.
And again because of theprinciple of like if it's
falling in your lap, the peoplewho ended up purchasing the
pieces are.
Some of them are alreadyessentially like family to me,
and now the ones that have theothers have become family like.

(01:03:47):
For myself as an only child,there was the reality of the
fact that, as much as I love mydad's work, for me to have all
of this at the end of the day isa bit much.
Yeah, right, yeah, it's a bitmuch.
And a bit much when nobody elsecan share it.
If we can have a conversationand all love it, then it's not a
bit much at all.

(01:04:08):
It extends it my dad iscontinuing to live in this
community that means so much tome, and that we're still holding
him through his children, mybrothers and sisters, these
beings right, so that?
So what?
Yeah, the word legacy, likeI've heard it so much that it's

(01:04:28):
become a little bit moreflattened or a little bit more
binary or something like that.
I I don't know, but it justreally made me, yeah, what that
really feels.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
Well, to me it feels like the conversation will
continue Exactly, and it remainsto be seen how the conversation
will continue, for sure, andyou're a writer, are you not?
Yes, musician and a writer,yeah, Okay, well so musician
writing two different media thatlend itself to this same story?
Oh exactly, and the legacy ofjust I mean, I was as you were

(01:04:57):
all talking, I was thinking thisis a whole philosophy.
I mean, like you, could, youcould?
This approach to life?
I mean this is more than agroup of fantastically beautiful
objects, this is a wholeapproach to living life.

Speaker 3 (01:05:12):
That, that's your story will be told as long as
these objects are eithertogether or distributed for
other people to weave into theirstories and so it's the gift
that keeps on giving a hundredpercent and I'm also one of the
sculptures right and my kids areright and like that.
That whole aspect of just likeyeah, the inherited ethos around

(01:05:35):
it is very present, you know,in the family.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
Well, that is.
We're going to sort of close itthere, because it's the perfect
segue to my second season fromthe Santa Fe City Different
Artists of the City, differentto the next chapter, which is
called Lineage and Legacy, and Ican't think of a more perfect
segue to this next season.
So thank you both.

Speaker 2 (01:05:58):
So much you know.
It was total, perfect.
It was a great, a great morningreally thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:06:06):
Well, thanks for joining us today.
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