June 1, 2025 • 60 mins
Join us for a conversation with singer-songwriter,Susan Anders, including her songwriting process, the challenges of the music industry, and the evolution of her artistic expression. She discusses the differences between writing lyrics versus music, the impact of personal experiences on her work, and the challenges of performing emotionally-charged songs. The conversation also touches on the changing landscape of the music industry, the difficulties of making a living as a musician, and the enduring human drive to create music despite these challenges.
Music for ArtStorming the City Different was written and performed by John Cruikshank.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Ever wonder what makes really creative people
tick?
Where do their ideas come from?
What keeps them energized?
What kinds of things get intheir way?
Is their life really as muchfun as it looks from the outside
?
Hello, I'm your host, liliPierpont, and this is
ArtStorming, a podcast about hownew ideas come to life and
become paintings, sculptures,plays or poems, performances or
(00:25):
collections.
Each episode I'll chat with aguest from the arts community
and explore how the mostcreative among us stare down a
blank canvas or reach into thevoid and create something new.
So today I'll be art stormingwith singer-songwriter Susan
Anders.
Finally, a musician it's beenweighing on me that musicians
(00:49):
have been underrepresented inthis series, and it's not like I
haven't tried to get some, butthe nature of their lifestyle as
artists is that they're oftentraveling for shows, so they're
not the easiest type of artistto nail down.
Then recently I was havingcoffee with a friend and she
asked me if I ever did talk tomusicians and did I know Susan
Anders.
Well, what a boon from theuniverse, right?
(01:11):
So naturally I jumped at thechance to meet her.
And not only did I get to meetSusan, but the timing actually
worked out that she was in SantaFe and between gigs.
So I scheduled her immediatelyand we were all set to go and
then she had to reschedulebecause she lost her voice.
I mean, I can only imagine howunnerving it is for a musician
to lose their voice, especiallyright before you're supposed to
(01:32):
release a new album.
Anyway, we persevered and hervoice healed and we were able to
capture this conversation justdays before Susan's Nashville
album release.
All right, so I am here withSusan Anders and this is really
fortunate because I've beenwanting to get a musician on the
show.
And when I met Kim the otherday and she suggested you, it's
(01:56):
really thrilling and you werekind enough to send me one of
your latest albums.
Is that the latest one?
Yeah, it's coming out at theend of.
May Great.
So I got a little sneak peekand got to hear that I was
filled with all kinds ofquestions, Because you're the
first musician that I've spokento.
It occurs to me that it's avery different art form.
So how do you distinguishbetween being a poet?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
or being a songwriter .
Songwriters add music and, asnear as I can tell, with poetry
you can paint a whole picturewith words.
Sometimes you'll hear songslike that.
I hear songs from people thatto me the lyrics are more poetic
(02:40):
than mine.
I think my lyrics are a littlemore conversational, but when
you add the music it alters it.
To me that's the differencewith songs.
You can have maybe more plainspoken lyrics and you add music
to it and it makes it moreevocative.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
And which comes first , the music or the lyric, or do
you?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
hear them together.
It's easier for me to writemusic, so it can go both ways
with me.
I actually try and write lyricsfirst, or the beginning of
lyrics, so I know what's goingon before I add music, because I
find it much harder to addlyrics to music.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Say more about that.
Why is it harder?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
The words don't come to me.
Music comes to me much moreeasily.
I'm sure you know about morningpages and people writing and
I've done that off and on foryears and I'll do that if I'm
(03:56):
stuck in any way.
At one point a friend when Iwas living in Nashville said
well, you know, I heard aboutmusical morning pages and you
basically go to your instrumentand play gobbledygook for 11
minutes and that gets theriffraff out of your brain and
(04:20):
you get to the more interestingstuff.
So I do that off and on andinvariably around 11 minutes,
like, oh, that's kind of cool, Ilike that.
I, with morning pages, I willwrite, write shopping lists.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Sometimes it's not, and that's just me it's just
sort of brain-pen connection.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
It can work to get to the good stuff, but not always
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
And so if you were to do music morning pages, do you
come to the piano or to yourguitar?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Typically the piano yeah, even though I mostly
perform with guitar.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
And so when you're writing your songs, are you
writing them with the piano forthe guitar Sometimes?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Sometimes I start on guitar, sometimes I start on
piano and switch it to guitar.
Very rarely guitar to piano.
The album that you justlistened to is unusual because I
think there are five pianosongs in there.
I don't do that much, I wasbeing indulgent.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Do you find that the deeper you get into your career,
the more indulgent you are withyourself?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Partly, or the less indulgent are with yourself.
Partly less indulgent this time.
I think it's an age thing ofI'm just going to do what
pleases me.
But because this album cameafter we had moved across the
country after 20 years innashville, and then right after
(06:06):
we unpacked my father died andso Newtown, dad gone, mourning
all that, I think I just letmyself do whatever.
Plus, I think when you're inmourning you don't have the
filters and the walls that youusually have, and so things were
(06:35):
flowing a lot more for me thatfirst year after he died than
they had in years, because ofall the emotion, the emotion and
because of the filtering nothappening.
I am in my head a great dealand I was clearly much more, as
(06:59):
you said, emotional, so thingsflowed more.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
So do you think, now that you've had that experience,
that you can access the thefield of emotion?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
on request it's a great question, but I don't
think so.
I don't think so.
I, I, I tend to be prettyregimented about how I work.
I will have a period of timewhere I'm just writing and in
the ether, and then a period ofrecording, which ended a few
(07:35):
months ago for this one, andthat's a whole other creative
process.
In this case, and it's usuallywith my husband Tom, he's got
the studio and we co-produce andso we're collaborating there.
And then there's the wholechunk of promotion which I'm in
the middle of now, which is awhole other animal, and I have
(08:01):
been trying to write a littlebit here and there during this
time.
It's really hard.
I work much better if thingsare all in writing, all in
recording, all in.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
It's so funny.
It reminds me I didn't get toair this episode because there
were complicated reasons.
But I spoke to a potter and shesaid that her process.
She builds the pots and thenshe fires the pots and then she
glazes the pots and she collectsa number of pieces and then it
goes from one phase to another.
So it's not surprising to methat there are sort of phases of
(08:41):
it.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
For me.
I think there are many, manymusicians that, oh, I'm writing
and I'm touring at the same timeand I'm going to go in the
studio next week, and I thinkI'm a little too much of a
control freak for that.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Well, or just mindful of how you work at this point.
I mean, it's one of the thingsyou get to do when you're a
mid-career artist is you get tosay this is how, this is what I
like, this is how I am Right,and so are you.
Mostly you're performing yourown songs, Do you?
Do you have other peopleperformed your songs?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Yes, there have been various artists over the years
who've recorded songs and when Imoved to Nashville, as so many
people do, I thought that I wassick of being a
singer-songwriter and I wasgoing to write songs
(09:37):
specifically for other people torecord.
And I played that game for awhile, which is what half of the
people living in Nashville aredoing and at some point I and
this was country music and atsome point I thought I'm not
sure I like the values ofcountry music.
I don't listen to it since theDixie Chicks got booted out.
(10:02):
I love them and that's not totrash country music.
There are some incrediblynuanced, beautiful songs in that
realm, but there's also a lotof bro country lifestyle.
That's not my lifestyle.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
So when you're writing a song, did it work out
that somebody heard your musicand said I want to do, I want to
cover that song, or did youwrite specifically for other
people and what's that processlike compared to writing for
yourself?
Speaker 2 (10:35):
I've done both.
I've had people who did coversongs that I had released as an
artist, and so they just heardmy stuff or heard me live.
And then I also, specifically,was writing for artists, and
that could be kind of limitingbecause you're thinking of a
(10:59):
certain market.
I was pretending that I was 25years old.
What would a 25-year-old or30-year-old do in this situation
?
So there was more play actinggoing on and then writing from
that character.
I've written from characters myentire life, off and on, so
(11:23):
that wasn't wasn't difficult.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Well, that's so interesting to me because I had
a background a little bit of anas an interior designer, and so
when you go in and you create aspace for somebody else, you are
, you're putting yourself intheir shoes.
I'm obviously not decoratingfor me, I'm decorating for them
and their lifestyle and whattheir needs are.
But when somebody does yoursong, what was that like to have
(11:46):
a song that you wrote foryourself and then somebody else
interpreted it?
What's the experience oflistening to somebody else do
one of your pieces?
I loved it.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Did they change it significantly, sometimes,
sometimes and sometimes theyimproved it, and I'd think, why
didn't I use that word?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
That's great yeah.
So changing lyrics, as well asthe arrangements or as well as
the instruments used, all ofthat.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, and I think some artists care, but I didn't.
It's just fun when someone elsedoes your song and gets it out
there.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, well, I mean, it's just so interesting
thinking about.
So many of the people that I'vetalked to are painters or
sculptors, and you know oncesomebody puts something down on
paper nobody else can do itright, Exactly.
It's like that wonderful linethat Joni Mitchell said you know
, can't paint a starry nightagain.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Right, exactly, that's immediately where I went.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
When you said that, I thought that's like Joni
Mitchell.
Yeah, exactly, so it's.
You know.
It's kind of like it's really,it's really.
I don't know it's yours, butit's kind of like once you let
it go.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
It sort of belongs to the collective unconscious.
Again, the baby's gone.
The baby's gone.
On the other hand, when someonegoes to look at a painting,
they're bringing their wholeexperience to it and they are
having their own relationshipwith it.
If somebody hears one of mysongs and is moved by it, that's
(13:32):
their experience.
I was writing a friend of minewho's in China right now.
She had heard a song I'dwritten about dad.
That seems to be getting moreof a response than anything from
the album and she said it wasso moving.
And I said, yeah, but my dadhad to die for me to write it
and that sucks.
And and she said you know, Ithink I wouldn't have had the
(13:57):
profound experience of it had myfather not died.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
So well, that's really beautiful in this in the
sense that there are sort of twodirections.
I want to go with that.
My next season is called artand legacy and death as muse.
So you know, this wholeexperience that we have get
access to when we touch thatdimension, right is it?
(14:23):
Just informs a whole otherlayer of our being right and and
so I'm dedicating an entireseason to it, and maybe we'll
have to come back and and talkagain when it comes to that, but
I I think that, um, whensomebody else hears a song that
you've done and it touches themdeeply speaking to, you know,
having an audience, one of thethings that's very unique for a
(14:47):
singer-songwriter, especiallyperforming singer-songwriter is
that you know you get to performthat over and over again and
witness the audience response toit, and sometimes I guess an
audience is this big, blurrything that you know you can't
see somebody's personal reactionto it, but I imagine you get
feedback from some of youraudience members from time to
(15:10):
time, absolutely and well,sometimes right after the show,
talking to them.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
You can't always tell , because sometimes if everyone
is moved, they're quiet.
So there have been a couple oftimes when I've looked out and
thought I am not connecting withthese people.
They look so grim and thenafterwards people will say I was
(15:40):
just so moved, I couldn't sayanything and I was in it.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
So I was not reading them particularly well, Well,
especially because your lyricsare not.
You know, they're not light.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Not this album.
Well, they're never light.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
But I mean, what I loved about listening to your
songs is that, like a lot of theother mid-career artists that
I'm talking to, there's amaturity, there's a life
experience that comes throughthem.
So they're not just sort ofbebop, you know, right well,
coming of age songs.
They're coming of age of adifferent, you know a different
part of our life.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I had a goal going in with this album.
I had gone to see a couple offamous singer-songwriters who
are a little older than I am andI thought these guys are going
to give me a vision of what it'slike getting older.
And they didn't.
It was a very disappointingshow in that realm and I thought
(16:41):
I am just going to write songsfor people of my generation.
Taylor Swift is writing greatsongs for her generation.
They speak to everyone thereand I know I like Taylor Swift
and some of her songs move me.
But I don't need to talk aboutthemes of young love.
(17:05):
I did that and that was foryounger years.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
I want to talk about things that happened to us as
we're older, like losing parents, aging, Well, obviously we all
go through that trajectory inlife, but somehow, even though I
do listen to music, my musicaltastes have changed.
I'm not listening to both sidesof the album, consistent, you
know, continuously, and the factthat I even call it an album.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Right, but what we did when we were young.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
But yeah, and I was very, very.
I mean I can still hear a songand, and it takes me right back
to the summer that I listened tothat album on both sides,
continuously, and so you know, Isort of define my life in these
(17:57):
chapters, but my life hasgotten so busy that I don't have
musicians that I listen to.
That would define this momentof my life, and I would imagine
that the younger people comingthrough are listening to the
lyrics and the music of thepeople that are of their age
group, of the people that are oftheir age group.
So who do you find is listeningto your?
How do people our age find amusician of our age who is
speaking to issues of our age?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
You find one artist and I don't do Spotify much but
Pandora I'll pop that artist inand Pandora will find some other
artists and I get a lot offriends.
Friends will just say I've beenlistening to so-and-so a lot.
(18:36):
I was when I was filling outthe form for you.
I was thinking what do I listento really?
And I listen to artists doingsomething in the realm of what I
do.
So singer-songwriters at leastI'm trying to have some
substance with maybe someinteresting production,
(19:00):
non-traditional percussion,things that it's not rock and
roll.
But if I'm making dinner I'mlistening to john batiste or
tower of power or silk sonic Iwant.
I want to hear funk, I wantdance music.
I want to hear some wailingsingers.
(19:23):
If the lyrics aren't deep, Idon't care.
So that it really is two realmsfor me and I don't do what you
and I did when we were youngerthe listening.
I could tell you, joni MitchellBlue, which song was on which
(19:47):
side of the record.
Oh, me too.
And in what order.
Yeah, and that no more.
That doesn't happen anymore.
People listen to playlists.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Well, and they're out of context, which was one of
the questions I wanted to askyou is that how do you decide
what order you're going?
I mean, back in the day, whenwe listened to an album, it was
like listening to chapters andit seemed to matter.
Maybe it was arbitrary, but itwhich song comes next on the
album, Absolutely, and so it waslike part of the listening
experience.
(20:19):
And if it was on the radio, itwas like wait a minute, you
can't play.
You know Eagles after JoniMitchell, I mean you could.
And now on Spotify, that's whatthese kids hear.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
That's exactly what happens and sometimes they are
related and it can be fun.
We're in this world where I'mputting out a CD.
Every musician I know that isputting out a CD calls all their
(20:59):
friends and say should I dothis anymore?
And it depends on the genre,because in singer-songwriter you
can go and play shows andpeople.
Our generation still buys CDsand I have a CD player in my car
(21:19):
so I still listen to them there.
It's a dying form, for whateverreason.
We have a guy who's promotingthe album to radio and he said I
need 400 CDs.
He's sending CDs to all ofthese DJs, really, so for some
(21:45):
people they are still working,even though most of us the vast,
vast majority of music now islistened to on spotify right.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Well, so it's almost like back to the way it was
originally, with like a single.
You know, you would just likerelease the 45, right that was
right and most people somepeople listening won't even know
what I mean by a 45.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
So figuring out the order is it's sort of insane.
It's sort of insane to evenrecord a CD.
Some artists just put outsingles now.
But I, since we were in theproject and I had 12 or 13 songs
, let's go for it.
We, we enjoy, not the royal, we, my husband and I enjoy the
(22:27):
process, so we wanted to do abunch of them.
When we put the order it waswith the knowledge at least what
I've heard that the vastmajority of people, if they have
an album, will listen to thefirst five or six songs two to
three times more than the othersongs.
(22:48):
So we, instead of thinking whatis the most artful order, we
tried to have that.
But we were much more pragmatic.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
We wanted to put what we thought were the strongest
songs we wanted to top load and,uh, we sent the album out to a
dozen friends and we had themvote interesting because as I
listened to it and it's my firsttime through hearing one of
your, any of your music, butstarting with float, that the
(23:22):
the next, maybe because my earhad a tune to your style and
your rhythm, but you know, theall of the songs that came after
that sort of really resonatedfor me.
So I kind of had the mirror orthe flip side effect I had side.
B.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Well, it's also like a performance.
You're not going to walk onstage, or most people are not
going to walk on stage and sitat the piano and play their
slowest, saddest song.
Unless all of their songs arelike that and that's what
everyone loves them for they'regoing to come out and probably
do a mid-to-up-tempo song that'snot lyrically quite so dense
(24:02):
and that's maybe a littlelighter.
Quite so dense and that's maybea little lighter.
It's a welcoming people in tountil you get into the heavier
stuff.
And so that's with this one,the.
The first couple of songs Idon't think were the deep songs,
and then we things got a littledeeper than that.
I.
(24:22):
It makes me wonder about herewe are in Santa Fe.
It's Gallery Central when youwalk in, when people are
thinking about it beyond thepolitical.
If it's a group show, you knowI want my right by the front
door, but how do you set that upso that you're invited in?
(24:46):
And then, whoa, that'sinteresting.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
It's that I've curated shows and so I know what
is in my mind as I'm hangingthings, but usually it's not as
sequential as something like.
I mean, you really don't havethe opportunity to walk across
the.
I mean, I suppose, withtechnology being what it is, you
can skip from song to song,right, but you can't tell what
that song is, the same way thatwhen you walk into a gallery you
(25:14):
are drawn to a particular blockof color or something or
something figure, whatever it isin that piece, whether it's the
frame or whatever it is whereit's situated in the gallery.
But your eye will be drawn.
So, because I come from a moreof an interior design background
, what informs me when I havehung a show is really more how
things relate to each other, andI've never been given an order
(25:37):
or layers of significance by theartist.
Usually it's at the discretionof the person hanging the show.
But so that does make it.
It is so different.
You know that how you have tokind of curate for the listener.
You know the order in which youwill build toward the final
piece.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
I'm still thinking about the gallery With albums
and a whole bunch of songs a lotof people including me.
I will look at the key the songis in and try not to have the
same key in a row Because ofsameness.
(26:17):
I'll try to not have the sametempo in a row and it was
trickier with this album, but Itry not to have the same theme
in it.
And I do the same thing if I'mbuilding a set for a live show
and building the order of songs.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yeah, yeah, well, you know, it occurs to me too that
it's a different thing if you,if somebody's showing a body of
work, that is, a particularcollection, it's different than
if you're hanging aretrospective.
And if you're doing aretrospective of somebody's work
, obviously you're going to kindof go a little bit more
chronologically.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
That would be the logic of a show.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
But I do think it's interesting because, as I was
listening to your album againfirst time through I was, and I
didn't read anything.
My preference is to listenfirst or to look at a painting
first before I read the plaqueor listen to anything written
and you know, I was struck bylike I was trying to decide,
okay, which genre would I puther in?
(27:12):
And then I thought, well, waita minute, that's not fair.
Just listen, don't genre-fy anddon't who does she remind you
of, and don't do anything.
Just listen completely openly.
But there was an opening Idon't remember which song it was
that sounded a little bit liketraffic at the very beginning,
with that little piano thing andI was like oh okay, low Spark
of High Heel Boys, that's funny.
(27:33):
So I mean like, but I thinkmaybe I don't know if it's my
brain or it's pretty common towant to make an association
between this work and that work.
I mean, certainly people do itvisually.
This work reminds me of itAbsolutely.
And in the art critic world,you know, when we say somebody's
work is derivative of it, itsounds like it's not the most
(27:54):
complimentary thing.
But you know, the truth is isthat we're influenced by life.
There's nothing new?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
There's nothing new in music.
It's just how are we weavingthese elements together and are
we doing it in an interestingway that might move people?
Speaker 1 (28:13):
So this last body of work, something kite, what was
it called?
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Now I'm a kite.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Now I'm a kite and I love that song that opens it.
I was a table and now I'm akite.
Oh yes, and that one kind ofhad some significance for me,
because my mother died in askydiving accident and so the
references to being kind of inflight and I know that they were
different, they were about yourdad's death, but I heard that
song and I was like woo, that'sjust and chills in a way.
(28:41):
But because this work is thecollection is organized around
the emotion that you had aroundyour father's death.
Did you know that you had afull genre, I mean a full oeuvre
of work?
That, or, you know, are therethings that didn't make it onto
this album?
I guess would be another way toask that question.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
The ones that didn't make it on, I just became
disenchanted with.
They just didn't make the cutfor me.
And one that got on.
Let me interrupt myself.
Early on I thought, okay, thisis just going to be a morning
album.
And then, as I went along, Ithought, no, this is going to be
(29:23):
about themes that hit olderpeople, because I didn't feel
like having 12 or 13 songs aboutmourning.
I needed other things in thereand I had other things going on,
but the song about Ruth Asawa.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
I like that song too.
I like that a lot.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
I tossed that at one point, not because of the theme,
it just wasn't working for me,and then I brought it back into
the fold and I like it, and soit doesn't really fit
thematically with anything goingon in the album.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
So what I'm wondering is when I talk to a lot of
painters, they'll say you knowthey'll have, they'll wrestle
with certain pieces, right, andthey'll come into their studio.
They'll leave it the nightbefore and come back the next
day and it's like, no, it's allwrong.
They'll scrape the whole thingoff or they'll wrestle it to the
ground.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Do you have the same kind of problem with certain
songs, or do they kind of justappear and then it's in the
context, like the Ruth Osawasong, whether it fits into the
album.
As soon as I put it in there Ithought, well, whatever she said
those words when she was older,she lived to be an old woman.
(30:38):
I'm gonna say that it works tohave it in an album about being
older.
I just got arbitrary thatparticular song.
I had written an entirelydifferent Ruth Azzawa song a few
years before that I didn't likeand then I started writing this
(30:59):
one and I spent a long time.
Some songs I will write a bitset aside, come back to it.
I can see it and hear it withfresh eyes and ears.
Work on it some more.
I don't push them as much as Iused to.
(31:19):
Also, I keep thinking aboutvisual art here as I'm writing.
I will take it to my writinggroup like someone writing a
book.
My writing group has been goingfor 35 years.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
We're spread everywhere.
We meet on Zoom now.
When we first met, we were allliving in Los Angeles, and so
these are people I trust I knowthey're just want to help me
write a good song, so I will geta song to a certain place and
(31:58):
then I'll take it to them.
Get feedback and rewrite,rewrite, rewrite.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
So that really has me curious about whether, when
you've been with a particulargroup as long as you have, do
you see influences in eachother's work.
I mean, it's like a community,it's like a commune in a way.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Not so much.
I have written some melodieswhere I thought that's a
Christina Olsen melody, but notso much.
Our writing is pretty differentand there are how many of you?
Four of us, oh, just four ofyou, just four.
So four of you for a longperiod of time.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yes, it was bigger it shrank, and you've seen each
other evolve through all thattime.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
How interesting, and is everybody else writing lyrics
that reflect their lifeexperience as well?
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yes, addressing their life experience as a mid-career
or older artist yes, I wouldsay that's true, because
everyone is somewhere in thefolk, americana pop realm of
things.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Jazz One woman is writing jazz, so yes, yeah, and
you know that actually, since itis a storytelling genre, it
makes sense that you would betelling stories that are
relevant to the life you'releading.
How long have you been in thisgenre?
Have you been writing?
I mean, I know you've beendoing this since your early 20s
(33:29):
and I did read something.
I usually don't read people'swebsites but, I saw the thing
about the singing telegram and Ijust thought that was hilarious
so you're going to have to tellthat story.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Okay, so well, I'll say it right now.
My best friend in college and Ineeded a job, so we formed a
singing telegram company, and Iwas pretending that I wasn't an
introvert and I made a fully settable that I could wear around
(34:03):
my waist and our claim to famewas we would write a song for
the person they would tell usit's, you know, grandma Mamie's
birthday and she was born then,and so we'd write a song.
One of us would show up.
I realized it's a job forextroverts, not good for me.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
But if you could have just been the person writing
the song and somebody elseperforming it, do you think you
would have been more comfortablewith that?
Absolutely, because it seemslike in order to that kind of
creativity on demand, I meanother than I mean.
At a younger age.
I remember when we were allgetting married we all used to
write, you know, the songs forthe rehearsal dinner that we
would sing and they would all berhyming and catchy and silly.
(34:51):
There was a time where thatcame more freely.
If I had to do that now, Ithink it would not happen.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Writing on demand can be really fun and I've done
that and it's fun.
Performing on demand not somuch.
There are people that just comealive when they're on stage and
then there are introverts likeme that takes a little bit more
effort to do somethingmarginally well on stage.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
So say a little bit more about your stage experience
versus your creative experience.
Not that they're not bothcreative, but they're a
different type of creative, sospeak to that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
When you and I were young, musicians went off into
their cubbyhole.
They did not have to post onInstagram, they didn't have to
be public and they didn't haveto post on instagram.
They didn't have to be publicand they didn't have to engage
with their fans in a constantway.
They could go off and get theirvisions and do their, their
(35:58):
work.
And, coming from thatgeneration, I continue to do
that a bit.
I'm on social media, but I'mnot posting every two hours and
it's a different realm now, adifferent relationship with fans
(36:21):
and, as a result, I don't haveas big an audience, and I'm okay
with that.
I just thought I'm just goingto do what I want to do and
please myself and hopefully somepeople will like it.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Well, I mean, your subject matter is very intimate.
So I mean it would make sensethat you would prefer a smaller
audience that's actually payingattention and listening.
It's not just a foot tappingright right ear swelling moment,
right right.
So it means to connect with areal audience and to have that,
that exchange.
Are you as comfortable, though,when you're, when you're
(37:00):
writing a song and and composingthe music for it?
Do you imagine yourselfperforming it?
Or are those two very differentsilos, for lack of a better
word, that's a good questionsometimes.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
And sometimes I will write something and think this
is going to be a good song toput in the set.
In between all the heavier ones, this one's more up tempo.
Here's a.
Here's an icebreaker song.
I will be manipulative that way.
And then there will be othersongs uh, like shoes on the new
(37:39):
album, the one about my dad,where I wrote that for me I
didn't think it would go on thealbum, it was just a
self-comfort song, and then myhusband, tom, said nope, you're
putting it on the album and it'sthe song that I'm getting the
most response to.
(38:00):
Because it was so personal, Ithink so and so when it works
that way, that's great.
But I didn't know that thatwould happen and I certainly
didn't imagine that I would beperforming it, as I am about to
do, in a couple of weeks.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
And so how does it feel when you perform that very,
you know, intimate andvulnerable song over and over
again?
Does it help process the griefand does it re-traumatize you?
Speaker 2 (38:33):
It does not re-traumatize.
The real issue is tapping backinto the emotion of it.
So it's an authenticperformance.
It's very easy with thepractice that musicians do.
They're just practicing andpracticing constantly.
It's not like you can practiceokay, I'm good to go a year from
(38:57):
now.
You have to practice all thetime, and in that practicing,
distance happens, and so evenwhen I was recording the song, I
had to have a little talk withmyself and just say stop
thinking about the tone, stopthinking about your pitch, get
(39:18):
back into the moment of what wasgoing on when you wrote it.
And I think that's whatperforming artists are doing all
the time.
They're trying to.
They don't want to do things byrote.
They need to re-inhabit it withfeeling, but not so much that
they collapse on the stage andstart crying.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Right.
Well, and it's also probably alittle bit different when you're
the singer, songwriter,performer, mostly a solo act as
opposed to a group where you'vegot somebody or co-writers or
whatever and so it's sort of agroup effort.
So you have it diffused over.
You know a number of people andthe interpretations are
different and people arebringing their different moods
(40:03):
and whatever to it.
So when you're on stage, areyou largely performing solo or
do you?
Because I know your album Inoticed you had other people
working, doing, playing harmony,other instruments, et cetera.
Do you have them on stage withyou typically?
Speaker 2 (40:16):
I will for the shows I'm about to do in Nashville and
Santa Fe.
We have several people whoplayed on the album in Nashville
and we have several otherpeople who played on the album
who in Nashville and we haveseveral other people who played
on the album in Santa Fe, sowe're creating two different
bands.
That's not something that'sthat I do.
(40:37):
It's not financially viable.
So when I perform, it's just me, or me and Tom, my husband,
backing me up.
He's a much better guitaristthan I and he sings backup.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
So when you're performing anything with another
person or people and they'rebringing their own thing to it,
how do you kind of modulate, youknow, like you're in a
particular mood, you're in aparticular headspace and you're
singing, wanting to sing thesong a particular way, or it's
(41:12):
like moving you in a particularway, and then you get on stage
and you've got other.
You know you've got to sort offreeform it a little bit right.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Yes, and when I have put bands together in recent
years, I have made a.
My plan for the longest time isto surround myself with
musicians who are much betterthan I am and they also know to.
They're not going to bringtheir drama on to the stage.
(41:43):
I'm probably not going tochange the tempo or throw some
extra bars into the middle ofthe song.
I'm going to play by the rules,but they're all such good
musicians and so sensitive thatthey would follow me as I have.
I've sung backup for people offand on for years and if they're
(42:08):
doing their song, I'm usuallynot looking at the audience.
I'm directing energy towardsthem.
I feel like our job is to sendall the energy to the lead
person and they send that out tothe audience.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Oh, it's interesting.
So now I'm going to have adifferent experience when I
observe a band on stage.
I mean, you sort of get a senseof that when you're watching
people that are especially jazz,where you know the attunement
to each other is part of theexperience and part of the
audience experience, even tojust be noticing that Right.
So another question I don'tknow, it seems like out of left
(42:46):
field, but, um, so when youwrite a song, say you, you you
said that often, I know I can'teven remember what you said you
write the music first.
I try and write the lyricsfirst, try to write the lyrics
first, so you've have somelyrics that you, and then you
start to hear the sounds or thetempo or the whatever, and then
(43:06):
you decide which instrumentyou're going to start with piano
.
Have you ever switched gearsLike you thought it was a song
for piano and now all of asudden it?
Speaker 2 (43:15):
becomes a song.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
And how does that happen?
I mean, does the song tell youitself Like people talk about
their paintings, basicallytelling them, informing them as
to what needs?
Speaker 2 (43:27):
to happen.
There's a lot of just kind ofmushing around.
I'm going to try this and I canbe manipulative.
I haven't written anything inthree, four in years.
I'm going to try that and thenI can have disasters.
And then I can have disasters.
(44:02):
I also can be very much.
There's my mother's patchworkquilt over there and I realized
she influenced me.
I will patchwork songs togetherwhere I.
There's a piano riff that wason my work tape for years and I
really liked it.
I couldn't think of anything todo with it and finally had some
lyrics and I'm just going topatchwork these together and see
if they work.
So sometimes you have happyaccidents.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Yeah, so it's more like working in multimedia, if
you were to compare it to apointer.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Yeah, so sometimes it's not that organic media, if
you were to compare it to apointer yeah, so sometimes it's
not that organic.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
So say a little bit more now about you're also a
voice coach and you work withother singer-songwriters, or
mostly people who are just usingtheir voice as an instrument.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
The full gamut.
I've pulled way back fromteaching.
It was how I made my living foryears and I had famous people
on the record labels would sendto me I'm saying, record labels,
what would they call them?
Now I don't know, what wouldthey?
Labels, labels.
And I would teach people whocould barely sing and just loved
(45:05):
singing For the pure joy ofsinging.
And so I, for the pure joy ofsinging, yeah, the pure joy of
it.
And all genres except forclassical, so just a huge
variety of singers and we wouldwork on completely different
(45:26):
things, sometimes very technical.
How do you sing in tune?
How do you?
The irony here is that I've gotthe vocal fatigue now,
post-bronchitis.
But how do you hold on to yourvoice If you're on tour?
So it could be a milliondifferent things.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
And what do you find that will block people from
having their voice?
Because I think this is whereyour particular art form is so
interesting, because, in termsof what I'm trying to offer in
this podcast series, which isgiving people access to their
voice, even though I haven't putit specifically around music,
(46:08):
but finding your voice as anartist or as a human being, you
would be amazed how many singersI worked with who, at one point
or another, said I had ateacher who told me I sucked, my
mother told me to stop singing.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Who in their childhood were completely
slammed for singing, and so whenthey finally got back to
lessons, there was that realm ofjust being allowed to let their
voice do its thing.
And then there was themechanical hey, you've got a
(46:50):
voice, let's work on how tobring it out.
Let's talk about breathing.
Let's talk about resonance,where you're feeling the sound.
Let's talk about how you'reopening or not opening your
mouth, these mechanical thingsthat can improve one's singing.
And then, when that happens,people feel like oh, here's my
(47:11):
voice.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
But here's my voice, beyond just the sound that it
makes what I have.
Here's what's within me that'snow allowed to express itself
right.
So are you really conscious ofother people's speaking voices?
I would imagine that would belike anybody who has sensitivity
to color or flavors Do you kindof know what part of their body
(47:33):
they're using to amplify or not?
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yes, I do notice voices and I hear.
Well in Santa Fe I hear thedryness here in many voices, and
so when someone has a, and youand I, we both have a little bit
of that going on right now.
And you and I, we both have alittle bit of that going on
(47:59):
right now.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
If someone appears with the big, booming voice, I
think, wow, how'd they escapethat Santa Fe air?
I'm definitely dealing withallergies, but it's so
interesting that you could hearthat because we've never spoken
before.
So it's not like you're hearingsomething that's different from
my normal voice.
Never spoken before.
So it's not like you're hearingsomething that's different from
my normal voice.
You're just so attuned to justthe mechanics of voice that you
can hear that.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
I can't tell the difference between someone who
is dry aired out and someonedealing with allergies.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
Right, so yeah, but still, that's.
That's like if you were.
If you and I were having thisconversation on the East coast,
where it's good and humid, youwould probably hear my voice
slightly.
I'm not sure that I would beable to hear the qualitative
differences, but you probablyare that attuned that you could.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
I notice things like that fairly quickly.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
yes, and so when you I'm fascinated with this because
you know, there's all thiswhole idea of like resonance,
because I'm very drawn to veryresonant voices, in part because
for many, many years I didn'trealize I was hearing impaired
and a resonant voice I was ableto hear better than in that
middle register, right, right.
So I'm very drawn to deep, low,big voices, right.
(49:11):
But, um, I'm wondering if youcan tell, like, what's going on
psychologically with somebodybased on how they use the
instrument of their voice.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Fairly quickly.
When I start working withsomebody, I can tell there are
many of us that our brains mustbe severed from the rest of our
bodies.
And where does that happen?
Well, our necks.
And so how do we sever that?
(49:44):
I worked with someone years agowho had been abused as a child
and his voice was just like that.
He was just gripping in histhroat.
I am pinching the sound out, soI that is pretty.
It's easy to figure out whenthat's going on with somebody.
(50:06):
It's not always easy to fix,but there are things you can do
right away that make right soyou mean first, it sounds like
you locate, like where is theinterference?
Right.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
And then like what has to happen, to release it.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Yes, and this is the big one.
The throat is the musclesaround the vocal cords we're all
trying to manipulate and theyshouldn't be that involved, and
yet they are, and it messesthings up.
There's that, and then there'sthe breath, because most of us
(50:42):
there's that book that came outa few years ago called yes, and
he's saying most of us arewalking around holding our
breath.
And it's true, I love that book.
I had it for at least a yearbefore I read it, because I'm
not going to learn anything fromthis.
And then I started reading andthought whoa, nellie, this is
(51:06):
great.
Yeah, what a great book.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
Yeah Well, and I just think that it's breath and song
and dance and these things thatare so native to our human
experience that, as we live inthis sort of mechanized world
that has become very left brainand very not integrated, and so
I think having access to breathis so primordial.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
And to be able to have that be your instrument
must be such a cold he wouldplunge into a depression and
(52:01):
everyone in his workforce.
Speaker 2 (52:03):
They'd all get depressed too, because work
would stop until he had hisvoice back.
But I think a lot of singers,we're so identified with our
ability to vocalize that whenit's impaired, well sure we are.
(52:23):
Yeah, things are jumbled.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
Do you notice the difference?
This might be an odd question,but do you notice the difference
between you mentioned earlierintroverts and extroverts?
Do introverts and extrovertshave a different way of using
their voice?
Speaker 2 (52:36):
do introverts and extroverts have a different way
of using their voice?
I don't think so.
No, I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
I think that plays out more in the performance
realm, but when they'reperforming- can you tell the
difference between an introvertand an extrovert on stage
Usually?
Speaker 2 (52:54):
But there are many, many, many artists out there who
would say they're introvertsand they have figured out what
to do on stage so they havetheir stage persona.
It's like when I go into—I wasat a book reading a couple days
ago and I went into sociableSusan mode and that's what you
(53:15):
do.
I figured out how to do that atsome point.
That's your professionalism,right yeah.
And so you figure out thesethings, even though, at the end
of the day, introverts mightwant to go to a noisy bar and
have a bunch of people aroundthem, and someone like me would
like to go home and read a goodbook.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
Yeah, yeah.
So switching gears just alittle bit.
What do you think is happeningwith the music industry going
forward?
I mean, I just saw aninteresting article speaking
again of fine art, that the bluechip art market is really
changing.
The new generation comingthrough is less interested in
spending a gajillion dollars ona piece of artwork.
They want something moreintimate, they want something
(53:56):
more immediately identifiable.
How do you find that that'saffecting the music industry or
your particular corner of themusic industry At?
Speaker 2 (54:06):
some point and this is, I think, a very rarefied air
At some point I thought I'mjust going to teach and that's
how I'm going to make my livingand what I do musically.
I'm not going to worry aboutmaking money, I just am going to
try and get the music out to asmany people as possible.
(54:27):
That is not the case for a30-year-old singer-songwriter
who's paying rent, who isworking a job that is not paying
all of her bills and maybe getsa bunch of airplay on Spotify
(54:48):
and then gets a check for I mean, I constantly have friends
posting their checks on Facebook.
Here I just got three centsfrom Spotify, or you know, $12.
So the music industry is rough,rough, rough now and the people
(55:13):
I know who are making a go ofit are touring all the time and
they are just in their cardriving to gigs and they're not
home much.
And this is why I thought I'mgoing to teach, so I can stay
home a little bit more.
It's a rough, rough industry.
Speaker 1 (55:34):
Well, and especially when you consider that there's
such a difference between Idon't know why I want to call it
sort of the acoustic thesinger-songwriter who's actually
writing every word, writingevery note, and these people who
are doing I know it's a popularsort of I don't know what you'd
even call it a genre, but thesesort of mashups where they just
take bits and pieces ofelectronically collaging songs
(55:59):
pieces of, you know,electronically collaging songs
and, um, you know you've gotthese kids who have these, these
keyboards that make all thedifferent instruments and all
the different sounds and some ofthem are really quite.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
There's some great, amazing, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
But it's such a different thing and it seems,
you know, like that I reallyfeel for you sort of analog
people out there.
Speaker 2 (56:18):
Absolutely.
It's a tough way to make aliving anymore.
And even in Nashville, when Imoved there in 2002, well, I had
friends who would write a hitsong that someone famous would
record and they'd buy a house.
That doesn't happen anymore.
(56:39):
That's not going to happenanymore If you get a cut with an
artist, you don't have thependulum.
Speaker 1 (56:45):
Swing back.
Speaker 2 (56:46):
No.
Speaker 1 (56:47):
It's gone.
Speaker 2 (56:49):
Well, people don't buy CDs anymore, they listen to
Spotify, and Spotify pays nextto nothing for airing a song, so
it's just for artists.
It's a terrible state of theindustry and artists now are
constantly looking at other waysto make a living.
(57:12):
The irony when we were livingin Nashville we were having a
backyard party at one point andI was looking around and
thinking that guy had wrote twonumber one hits.
That one is pretty well knowntouring singer, songwriter
everywhere.
I was just seeing all thesepeople.
We're all around a picnic tableand what was anyone talking
(57:34):
about?
They were talking about realestate.
Because when we moved toNashville in 2002, you could buy
a house for cheap and so andyou could live for cheap and be
a musician.
And so people move there.
They'd buy cheap houses, they'dfix them up, they'd rent them
out and that is how they fundedtheir musical life.
Speaker 1 (58:00):
Well, it's such a bizarre thing to think about
when you think how, again,native music I mean making music
is so primal to us as humansand yet it's no longer a viable
way necessarily to make a livingfrom what it sounds like.
And yet people are still bornwith this drive to make music,
(58:23):
and making music is sort of ametaphor for, you know, like
living a joyous life.
So it'll be really interestingto see what happens to whether
it's the music industry or justwhat happens to music and how we
as human beings continue alongthis trajectory of being musical
beings.
Music and dance and all thesethings that are so integral to
(58:44):
being human.
Speaker 2 (58:46):
I like to think that the drive is so strong that even
if someone has to work a coupleof jobs, they will squeeze in
that 20 minutes at night and itstill brings them joy, and what
they're working on may bringsomeone else joy.
But I have for many yearsthought about the pragmatic part
(59:11):
of being an artist, and I wasthinking of Tina Mayan when I
was driving across the countryand we stopped at the hotel in
Winslow, arizona, where all ofher stuff is there and I thought
this is brilliant.
She got out of LA, she has aplace where she can do all of
her work and the kicker of itwas she had one piece that I
(59:34):
just wow, this isn't.
This wasn't available so Idon't have it now, but she was
doing very moving work and shehad a vehicle for displaying it.
And they were making a livingbecause they owned a hotel.
Speaker 1 (59:52):
So I guess we'll just see those creative iterations
hopefully coming up and hard topredict where it's going to
hotel.
So I guess we'll just see thosecreative iterations hopefully
coming up and hard to predictwhere it's going to go.
Speaker 2 (59:59):
I think that's the optimist in me is hoping for
that.
Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
Great.
Well, I think that's theperfect place to leave it, and
thank you so much.
I loved this conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
Well, thanks for joining us today.
Please like and follow us onartstormingorg, where you'll
find a list of our shows, atranscript of this episode with
links to the guest page, as wellas our other projects.
Art Storming is brought to youand supported by ArtBridge and
listeners like you.
Look for us on your favoritepodcast platforms.
Ever wonder what makes really creative people
tick?
Where do their ideas come from?
What keeps them energized?
What kinds of things get intheir way?
Is their life really as muchfun as it looks from the outside
?
Hello, I'm your host, liliPierpont, and this is
ArtStorming, a podcast about hownew ideas come to life and
become paintings, sculptures,plays or poems, performances or
(00:25):
collections.
Each episode I'll chat with aguest from the arts community
and explore how the mostcreative among us stare down a
blank canvas or reach into thevoid and create something new.
So today I'll be art stormingwith singer-songwriter Susan
Anders.
Finally, a musician it's beenweighing on me that musicians
(00:49):
have been underrepresented inthis series, and it's not like I
haven't tried to get some, butthe nature of their lifestyle as
artists is that they're oftentraveling for shows, so they're
not the easiest type of artistto nail down.
Then recently I was havingcoffee with a friend and she
asked me if I ever did talk tomusicians and did I know Susan
Anders.
Well, what a boon from theuniverse, right?
(01:11):
So naturally I jumped at thechance to meet her.
And not only did I get to meetSusan, but the timing actually
worked out that she was in SantaFe and between gigs.
So I scheduled her immediatelyand we were all set to go and
then she had to reschedulebecause she lost her voice.
I mean, I can only imagine howunnerving it is for a musician
to lose their voice, especiallyright before you're supposed to
(01:32):
release a new album.
Anyway, we persevered and hervoice healed and we were able to
capture this conversation justdays before Susan's Nashville
album release.
All right, so I am here withSusan Anders and this is really
fortunate because I've beenwanting to get a musician on the
show.
And when I met Kim the otherday and she suggested you, it's
(01:56):
really thrilling and you werekind enough to send me one of
your latest albums.
Is that the latest one?
Yeah, it's coming out at theend of.
May Great.
So I got a little sneak peekand got to hear that I was
filled with all kinds ofquestions, Because you're the
first musician that I've spokento.
It occurs to me that it's avery different art form.
So how do you distinguishbetween being a poet?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
or being a songwriter .
Songwriters add music and, asnear as I can tell, with poetry
you can paint a whole picturewith words.
Sometimes you'll hear songslike that.
I hear songs from people thatto me the lyrics are more poetic
(02:40):
than mine.
I think my lyrics are a littlemore conversational, but when
you add the music it alters it.
To me that's the differencewith songs.
You can have maybe more plainspoken lyrics and you add music
to it and it makes it moreevocative.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
And which comes first , the music or the lyric, or do
you?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
hear them together.
It's easier for me to writemusic, so it can go both ways
with me.
I actually try and write lyricsfirst, or the beginning of
lyrics, so I know what's goingon before I add music, because I
find it much harder to addlyrics to music.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Say more about that.
Why is it harder?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
The words don't come to me.
Music comes to me much moreeasily.
I'm sure you know about morningpages and people writing and
I've done that off and on foryears and I'll do that if I'm
(03:56):
stuck in any way.
At one point a friend when Iwas living in Nashville said
well, you know, I heard aboutmusical morning pages and you
basically go to your instrumentand play gobbledygook for 11
minutes and that gets theriffraff out of your brain and
(04:20):
you get to the more interestingstuff.
So I do that off and on andinvariably around 11 minutes,
like, oh, that's kind of cool, Ilike that.
I, with morning pages, I willwrite, write shopping lists.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Sometimes it's not, and that's just me it's just
sort of brain-pen connection.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
It can work to get to the good stuff, but not always
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
And so if you were to do music morning pages, do you
come to the piano or to yourguitar?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Typically the piano yeah, even though I mostly
perform with guitar.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
And so when you're writing your songs, are you
writing them with the piano forthe guitar Sometimes?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Sometimes I start on guitar, sometimes I start on
piano and switch it to guitar.
Very rarely guitar to piano.
The album that you justlistened to is unusual because I
think there are five pianosongs in there.
I don't do that much, I wasbeing indulgent.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Do you find that the deeper you get into your career,
the more indulgent you are withyourself?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Partly, or the less indulgent are with yourself.
Partly less indulgent this time.
I think it's an age thing ofI'm just going to do what
pleases me.
But because this album cameafter we had moved across the
country after 20 years innashville, and then right after
(06:06):
we unpacked my father died andso Newtown, dad gone, mourning
all that, I think I just letmyself do whatever.
Plus, I think when you're inmourning you don't have the
filters and the walls that youusually have, and so things were
(06:35):
flowing a lot more for me thatfirst year after he died than
they had in years, because ofall the emotion, the emotion and
because of the filtering nothappening.
I am in my head a great dealand I was clearly much more, as
(06:59):
you said, emotional, so thingsflowed more.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
So do you think, now that you've had that experience,
that you can access the thefield of emotion?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
on request it's a great question, but I don't
think so.
I don't think so.
I, I, I tend to be prettyregimented about how I work.
I will have a period of timewhere I'm just writing and in
the ether, and then a period ofrecording, which ended a few
(07:35):
months ago for this one, andthat's a whole other creative
process.
In this case, and it's usuallywith my husband Tom, he's got
the studio and we co-produce andso we're collaborating there.
And then there's the wholechunk of promotion which I'm in
the middle of now, which is awhole other animal, and I have
(08:01):
been trying to write a littlebit here and there during this
time.
It's really hard.
I work much better if thingsare all in writing, all in
recording, all in.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
It's so funny.
It reminds me I didn't get toair this episode because there
were complicated reasons.
But I spoke to a potter and shesaid that her process.
She builds the pots and thenshe fires the pots and then she
glazes the pots and she collectsa number of pieces and then it
goes from one phase to another.
So it's not surprising to methat there are sort of phases of
(08:41):
it.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
For me.
I think there are many, manymusicians that, oh, I'm writing
and I'm touring at the same timeand I'm going to go in the
studio next week, and I thinkI'm a little too much of a
control freak for that.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Well, or just mindful of how you work at this point.
I mean, it's one of the thingsyou get to do when you're a
mid-career artist is you get tosay this is how, this is what I
like, this is how I am Right,and so are you.
Mostly you're performing yourown songs, Do you?
Do you have other peopleperformed your songs?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Yes, there have been various artists over the years
who've recorded songs and when Imoved to Nashville, as so many
people do, I thought that I wassick of being a
singer-songwriter and I wasgoing to write songs
(09:37):
specifically for other people torecord.
And I played that game for awhile, which is what half of the
people living in Nashville aredoing and at some point I and
this was country music and atsome point I thought I'm not
sure I like the values ofcountry music.
I don't listen to it since theDixie Chicks got booted out.
(10:02):
I love them and that's not totrash country music.
There are some incrediblynuanced, beautiful songs in that
realm, but there's also a lotof bro country lifestyle.
That's not my lifestyle.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
So when you're writing a song, did it work out
that somebody heard your musicand said I want to do, I want to
cover that song, or did youwrite specifically for other
people and what's that processlike compared to writing for
yourself?
Speaker 2 (10:35):
I've done both.
I've had people who did coversongs that I had released as an
artist, and so they just heardmy stuff or heard me live.
And then I also, specifically,was writing for artists, and
that could be kind of limitingbecause you're thinking of a
(10:59):
certain market.
I was pretending that I was 25years old.
What would a 25-year-old or30-year-old do in this situation
?
So there was more play actinggoing on and then writing from
that character.
I've written from characters myentire life, off and on, so
(11:23):
that wasn't wasn't difficult.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Well, that's so interesting to me because I had
a background a little bit of anas an interior designer, and so
when you go in and you create aspace for somebody else, you are
, you're putting yourself intheir shoes.
I'm obviously not decoratingfor me, I'm decorating for them
and their lifestyle and whattheir needs are.
But when somebody does yoursong, what was that like to have
(11:46):
a song that you wrote foryourself and then somebody else
interpreted it?
What's the experience oflistening to somebody else do
one of your pieces?
I loved it.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Did they change it significantly, sometimes,
sometimes and sometimes theyimproved it, and I'd think, why
didn't I use that word?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
That's great yeah.
So changing lyrics, as well asthe arrangements or as well as
the instruments used, all ofthat.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, and I think some artists care, but I didn't.
It's just fun when someone elsedoes your song and gets it out
there.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, well, I mean, it's just so interesting
thinking about.
So many of the people that I'vetalked to are painters or
sculptors, and you know oncesomebody puts something down on
paper nobody else can do itright, Exactly.
It's like that wonderful linethat Joni Mitchell said you know
, can't paint a starry nightagain.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Right, exactly, that's immediately where I went.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
When you said that, I thought that's like Joni
Mitchell.
Yeah, exactly, so it's.
You know.
It's kind of like it's really,it's really.
I don't know it's yours, butit's kind of like once you let
it go.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
It sort of belongs to the collective unconscious.
Again, the baby's gone.
The baby's gone.
On the other hand, when someonegoes to look at a painting,
they're bringing their wholeexperience to it and they are
having their own relationshipwith it.
If somebody hears one of mysongs and is moved by it, that's
(13:32):
their experience.
I was writing a friend of minewho's in China right now.
She had heard a song I'dwritten about dad.
That seems to be getting moreof a response than anything from
the album and she said it wasso moving.
And I said, yeah, but my dadhad to die for me to write it
and that sucks.
And and she said you know, Ithink I wouldn't have had the
(13:57):
profound experience of it had myfather not died.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
So well, that's really beautiful in this in the
sense that there are sort of twodirections.
I want to go with that.
My next season is called artand legacy and death as muse.
So you know, this wholeexperience that we have get
access to when we touch thatdimension, right is it?
(14:23):
Just informs a whole otherlayer of our being right and and
so I'm dedicating an entireseason to it, and maybe we'll
have to come back and and talkagain when it comes to that, but
I I think that, um, whensomebody else hears a song that
you've done and it touches themdeeply speaking to, you know,
having an audience, one of thethings that's very unique for a
(14:47):
singer-songwriter, especiallyperforming singer-songwriter is
that you know you get to performthat over and over again and
witness the audience response toit, and sometimes I guess an
audience is this big, blurrything that you know you can't
see somebody's personal reactionto it, but I imagine you get
feedback from some of youraudience members from time to
(15:10):
time, absolutely and well,sometimes right after the show,
talking to them.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
You can't always tell , because sometimes if everyone
is moved, they're quiet.
So there have been a couple oftimes when I've looked out and
thought I am not connecting withthese people.
They look so grim and thenafterwards people will say I was
(15:40):
just so moved, I couldn't sayanything and I was in it.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
So I was not reading them particularly well, Well,
especially because your lyricsare not.
You know, they're not light.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Not this album.
Well, they're never light.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
But I mean, what I loved about listening to your
songs is that, like a lot of theother mid-career artists that
I'm talking to, there's amaturity, there's a life
experience that comes throughthem.
So they're not just sort ofbebop, you know, right well,
coming of age songs.
They're coming of age of adifferent, you know a different
part of our life.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I had a goal going in with this album.
I had gone to see a couple offamous singer-songwriters who
are a little older than I am andI thought these guys are going
to give me a vision of what it'slike getting older.
And they didn't.
It was a very disappointingshow in that realm and I thought
(16:41):
I am just going to write songsfor people of my generation.
Taylor Swift is writing greatsongs for her generation.
They speak to everyone thereand I know I like Taylor Swift
and some of her songs move me.
But I don't need to talk aboutthemes of young love.
(17:05):
I did that and that was foryounger years.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
I want to talk about things that happened to us as
we're older, like losing parents, aging, Well, obviously we all
go through that trajectory inlife, but somehow, even though I
do listen to music, my musicaltastes have changed.
I'm not listening to both sidesof the album, consistent, you
know, continuously, and the factthat I even call it an album.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Right, but what we did when we were young.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
But yeah, and I was very, very.
I mean I can still hear a songand, and it takes me right back
to the summer that I listened tothat album on both sides,
continuously, and so you know, Isort of define my life in these
(17:57):
chapters, but my life hasgotten so busy that I don't have
musicians that I listen to.
That would define this momentof my life, and I would imagine
that the younger people comingthrough are listening to the
lyrics and the music of thepeople that are of their age
group, of the people that are oftheir age group.
So who do you find is listeningto your?
How do people our age find amusician of our age who is
speaking to issues of our age?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
You find one artist and I don't do Spotify much but
Pandora I'll pop that artist inand Pandora will find some other
artists and I get a lot offriends.
Friends will just say I've beenlistening to so-and-so a lot.
(18:36):
I was when I was filling outthe form for you.
I was thinking what do I listento really?
And I listen to artists doingsomething in the realm of what I
do.
So singer-songwriters at leastI'm trying to have some
substance with maybe someinteresting production,
(19:00):
non-traditional percussion,things that it's not rock and
roll.
But if I'm making dinner I'mlistening to john batiste or
tower of power or silk sonic Iwant.
I want to hear funk, I wantdance music.
I want to hear some wailingsingers.
(19:23):
If the lyrics aren't deep, Idon't care.
So that it really is two realmsfor me and I don't do what you
and I did when we were youngerthe listening.
I could tell you, joni MitchellBlue, which song was on which
(19:47):
side of the record.
Oh, me too.
And in what order.
Yeah, and that no more.
That doesn't happen anymore.
People listen to playlists.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Well, and they're out of context, which was one of
the questions I wanted to askyou is that how do you decide
what order you're going?
I mean, back in the day, whenwe listened to an album, it was
like listening to chapters andit seemed to matter.
Maybe it was arbitrary, but itwhich song comes next on the
album, Absolutely, and so it waslike part of the listening
experience.
(20:19):
And if it was on the radio, itwas like wait a minute, you
can't play.
You know Eagles after JoniMitchell, I mean you could.
And now on Spotify, that's whatthese kids hear.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
That's exactly what happens and sometimes they are
related and it can be fun.
We're in this world where I'mputting out a CD.
Every musician I know that isputting out a CD calls all their
(20:59):
friends and say should I dothis anymore?
And it depends on the genre,because in singer-songwriter you
can go and play shows andpeople.
Our generation still buys CDsand I have a CD player in my car
(21:19):
so I still listen to them there.
It's a dying form, for whateverreason.
We have a guy who's promotingthe album to radio and he said I
need 400 CDs.
He's sending CDs to all ofthese DJs, really, so for some
(21:45):
people they are still working,even though most of us the vast,
vast majority of music now islistened to on spotify right.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Well, so it's almost like back to the way it was
originally, with like a single.
You know, you would just likerelease the 45, right that was
right and most people somepeople listening won't even know
what I mean by a 45.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
So figuring out the order is it's sort of insane.
It's sort of insane to evenrecord a CD.
Some artists just put outsingles now.
But I, since we were in theproject and I had 12 or 13 songs
, let's go for it.
We, we enjoy, not the royal, we, my husband and I enjoy the
(22:27):
process, so we wanted to do abunch of them.
When we put the order it waswith the knowledge at least what
I've heard that the vastmajority of people, if they have
an album, will listen to thefirst five or six songs two to
three times more than the othersongs.
(22:48):
So we, instead of thinking whatis the most artful order, we
tried to have that.
But we were much more pragmatic.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
We wanted to put what we thought were the strongest
songs we wanted to top load and,uh, we sent the album out to a
dozen friends and we had themvote interesting because as I
listened to it and it's my firsttime through hearing one of
your, any of your music, butstarting with float, that the
(23:22):
the next, maybe because my earhad a tune to your style and
your rhythm, but you know, theall of the songs that came after
that sort of really resonatedfor me.
So I kind of had the mirror orthe flip side effect I had side.
B.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Well, it's also like a performance.
You're not going to walk onstage, or most people are not
going to walk on stage and sitat the piano and play their
slowest, saddest song.
Unless all of their songs arelike that and that's what
everyone loves them for they'regoing to come out and probably
do a mid-to-up-tempo song that'snot lyrically quite so dense
(24:02):
and that's maybe a littlelighter.
Quite so dense and that's maybea little lighter.
It's a welcoming people in tountil you get into the heavier
stuff.
And so that's with this one,the.
The first couple of songs Idon't think were the deep songs,
and then we things got a littledeeper than that.
I.
(24:22):
It makes me wonder about herewe are in Santa Fe.
It's Gallery Central when youwalk in, when people are
thinking about it beyond thepolitical.
If it's a group show, you knowI want my right by the front
door, but how do you set that upso that you're invited in?
(24:46):
And then, whoa, that'sinteresting.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
It's that I've curated shows and so I know what
is in my mind as I'm hangingthings, but usually it's not as
sequential as something like.
I mean, you really don't havethe opportunity to walk across
the.
I mean, I suppose, withtechnology being what it is, you
can skip from song to song,right, but you can't tell what
that song is, the same way thatwhen you walk into a gallery you
(25:14):
are drawn to a particular blockof color or something or
something figure, whatever it isin that piece, whether it's the
frame or whatever it is whereit's situated in the gallery.
But your eye will be drawn.
So, because I come from a moreof an interior design background
, what informs me when I havehung a show is really more how
things relate to each other, andI've never been given an order
(25:37):
or layers of significance by theartist.
Usually it's at the discretionof the person hanging the show.
But so that does make it.
It is so different.
You know that how you have tokind of curate for the listener.
You know the order in which youwill build toward the final
piece.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
I'm still thinking about the gallery With albums
and a whole bunch of songs a lotof people including me.
I will look at the key the songis in and try not to have the
same key in a row Because ofsameness.
(26:17):
I'll try to not have the sametempo in a row and it was
trickier with this album, but Itry not to have the same theme
in it.
And I do the same thing if I'mbuilding a set for a live show
and building the order of songs.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yeah, yeah, well, you know, it occurs to me too that
it's a different thing if you,if somebody's showing a body of
work, that is, a particularcollection, it's different than
if you're hanging aretrospective.
And if you're doing aretrospective of somebody's work
, obviously you're going to kindof go a little bit more
chronologically.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
That would be the logic of a show.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
But I do think it's interesting because, as I was
listening to your album againfirst time through I was, and I
didn't read anything.
My preference is to listenfirst or to look at a painting
first before I read the plaqueor listen to anything written
and you know, I was struck bylike I was trying to decide,
okay, which genre would I puther in?
(27:12):
And then I thought, well, waita minute, that's not fair.
Just listen, don't genre-fy anddon't who does she remind you
of, and don't do anything.
Just listen completely openly.
But there was an opening Idon't remember which song it was
that sounded a little bit liketraffic at the very beginning,
with that little piano thing andI was like oh okay, low Spark
of High Heel Boys, that's funny.
(27:33):
So I mean like, but I thinkmaybe I don't know if it's my
brain or it's pretty common towant to make an association
between this work and that work.
I mean, certainly people do itvisually.
This work reminds me of itAbsolutely.
And in the art critic world,you know, when we say somebody's
work is derivative of it, itsounds like it's not the most
(27:54):
complimentary thing.
But you know, the truth is isthat we're influenced by life.
There's nothing new?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
There's nothing new in music.
It's just how are we weavingthese elements together and are
we doing it in an interestingway that might move people?
Speaker 1 (28:13):
So this last body of work, something kite, what was
it called?
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Now I'm a kite.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Now I'm a kite and I love that song that opens it.
I was a table and now I'm akite.
Oh yes, and that one kind ofhad some significance for me,
because my mother died in askydiving accident and so the
references to being kind of inflight and I know that they were
different, they were about yourdad's death, but I heard that
song and I was like woo, that'sjust and chills in a way.
(28:41):
But because this work is thecollection is organized around
the emotion that you had aroundyour father's death.
Did you know that you had afull genre, I mean a full oeuvre
of work?
That, or, you know, are therethings that didn't make it onto
this album?
I guess would be another way toask that question.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
The ones that didn't make it on, I just became
disenchanted with.
They just didn't make the cutfor me.
And one that got on.
Let me interrupt myself.
Early on I thought, okay, thisis just going to be a morning
album.
And then, as I went along, Ithought, no, this is going to be
(29:23):
about themes that hit olderpeople, because I didn't feel
like having 12 or 13 songs aboutmourning.
I needed other things in thereand I had other things going on,
but the song about Ruth Asawa.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
I like that song too.
I like that a lot.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
I tossed that at one point, not because of the theme,
it just wasn't working for me,and then I brought it back into
the fold and I like it, and soit doesn't really fit
thematically with anything goingon in the album.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
So what I'm wondering is when I talk to a lot of
painters, they'll say you knowthey'll have, they'll wrestle
with certain pieces, right, andthey'll come into their studio.
They'll leave it the nightbefore and come back the next
day and it's like, no, it's allwrong.
They'll scrape the whole thingoff or they'll wrestle it to the
ground.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Do you have the same kind of problem with certain
songs, or do they kind of justappear and then it's in the
context, like the Ruth Osawasong, whether it fits into the
album.
As soon as I put it in there Ithought, well, whatever she said
those words when she was older,she lived to be an old woman.
(30:38):
I'm gonna say that it works tohave it in an album about being
older.
I just got arbitrary thatparticular song.
I had written an entirelydifferent Ruth Azzawa song a few
years before that I didn't likeand then I started writing this
(30:59):
one and I spent a long time.
Some songs I will write a bitset aside, come back to it.
I can see it and hear it withfresh eyes and ears.
Work on it some more.
I don't push them as much as Iused to.
(31:19):
Also, I keep thinking aboutvisual art here as I'm writing.
I will take it to my writinggroup like someone writing a
book.
My writing group has been goingfor 35 years.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
We're spread everywhere.
We meet on Zoom now.
When we first met, we were allliving in Los Angeles, and so
these are people I trust I knowthey're just want to help me
write a good song, so I will geta song to a certain place and
(31:58):
then I'll take it to them.
Get feedback and rewrite,rewrite, rewrite.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
So that really has me curious about whether, when
you've been with a particulargroup as long as you have, do
you see influences in eachother's work.
I mean, it's like a community,it's like a commune in a way.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Not so much.
I have written some melodieswhere I thought that's a
Christina Olsen melody, but notso much.
Our writing is pretty differentand there are how many of you?
Four of us, oh, just four ofyou, just four.
So four of you for a longperiod of time.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yes, it was bigger it shrank, and you've seen each
other evolve through all thattime.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
How interesting, and is everybody else writing lyrics
that reflect their lifeexperience as well?
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yes, addressing their life experience as a mid-career
or older artist yes, I wouldsay that's true, because
everyone is somewhere in thefolk, americana pop realm of
things.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Jazz One woman is writing jazz, so yes, yeah, and
you know that actually, since itis a storytelling genre, it
makes sense that you would betelling stories that are
relevant to the life you'releading.
How long have you been in thisgenre?
Have you been writing?
I mean, I know you've beendoing this since your early 20s
(33:29):
and I did read something.
I usually don't read people'swebsites but, I saw the thing
about the singing telegram and Ijust thought that was hilarious
so you're going to have to tellthat story.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Okay, so well, I'll say it right now.
My best friend in college and Ineeded a job, so we formed a
singing telegram company, and Iwas pretending that I wasn't an
introvert and I made a fully settable that I could wear around
(34:03):
my waist and our claim to famewas we would write a song for
the person they would tell usit's, you know, grandma Mamie's
birthday and she was born then,and so we'd write a song.
One of us would show up.
I realized it's a job forextroverts, not good for me.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
But if you could have just been the person writing
the song and somebody elseperforming it, do you think you
would have been more comfortablewith that?
Absolutely, because it seemslike in order to that kind of
creativity on demand, I meanother than I mean.
At a younger age.
I remember when we were allgetting married we all used to
write, you know, the songs forthe rehearsal dinner that we
would sing and they would all berhyming and catchy and silly.
(34:51):
There was a time where thatcame more freely.
If I had to do that now, Ithink it would not happen.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Writing on demand can be really fun and I've done
that and it's fun.
Performing on demand not somuch.
There are people that just comealive when they're on stage and
then there are introverts likeme that takes a little bit more
effort to do somethingmarginally well on stage.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
So say a little bit more about your stage experience
versus your creative experience.
Not that they're not bothcreative, but they're a
different type of creative, sospeak to that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
When you and I were young, musicians went off into
their cubbyhole.
They did not have to post onInstagram, they didn't have to
be public and they didn't haveto post on instagram.
They didn't have to be publicand they didn't have to engage
with their fans in a constantway.
They could go off and get theirvisions and do their, their
(35:58):
work.
And, coming from thatgeneration, I continue to do
that a bit.
I'm on social media, but I'mnot posting every two hours and
it's a different realm now, adifferent relationship with fans
(36:21):
and, as a result, I don't haveas big an audience, and I'm okay
with that.
I just thought I'm just goingto do what I want to do and
please myself and hopefully somepeople will like it.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Well, I mean, your subject matter is very intimate.
So I mean it would make sensethat you would prefer a smaller
audience that's actually payingattention and listening.
It's not just a foot tappingright right ear swelling moment,
right right.
So it means to connect with areal audience and to have that,
that exchange.
Are you as comfortable, though,when you're, when you're
(37:00):
writing a song and and composingthe music for it?
Do you imagine yourselfperforming it?
Or are those two very differentsilos, for lack of a better
word, that's a good questionsometimes.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
And sometimes I will write something and think this
is going to be a good song toput in the set.
In between all the heavier ones, this one's more up tempo.
Here's a.
Here's an icebreaker song.
I will be manipulative that way.
And then there will be othersongs uh, like shoes on the new
(37:39):
album, the one about my dad,where I wrote that for me I
didn't think it would go on thealbum, it was just a
self-comfort song, and then myhusband, tom, said nope, you're
putting it on the album and it'sthe song that I'm getting the
most response to.
(38:00):
Because it was so personal, Ithink so and so when it works
that way, that's great.
But I didn't know that thatwould happen and I certainly
didn't imagine that I would beperforming it, as I am about to
do, in a couple of weeks.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
And so how does it feel when you perform that very,
you know, intimate andvulnerable song over and over
again?
Does it help process the griefand does it re-traumatize you?
Speaker 2 (38:33):
It does not re-traumatize.
The real issue is tapping backinto the emotion of it.
So it's an authenticperformance.
It's very easy with thepractice that musicians do.
They're just practicing andpracticing constantly.
It's not like you can practiceokay, I'm good to go a year from
(38:57):
now.
You have to practice all thetime, and in that practicing,
distance happens, and so evenwhen I was recording the song, I
had to have a little talk withmyself and just say stop
thinking about the tone, stopthinking about your pitch, get
(39:18):
back into the moment of what wasgoing on when you wrote it.
And I think that's whatperforming artists are doing all
the time.
They're trying to.
They don't want to do things byrote.
They need to re-inhabit it withfeeling, but not so much that
they collapse on the stage andstart crying.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Right.
Well, and it's also probably alittle bit different when you're
the singer, songwriter,performer, mostly a solo act as
opposed to a group where you'vegot somebody or co-writers or
whatever and so it's sort of agroup effort.
So you have it diffused over.
You know a number of people andthe interpretations are
different and people arebringing their different moods
(40:03):
and whatever to it.
So when you're on stage, areyou largely performing solo or
do you?
Because I know your album Inoticed you had other people
working, doing, playing harmony,other instruments, et cetera.
Do you have them on stage withyou typically?
Speaker 2 (40:16):
I will for the shows I'm about to do in Nashville and
Santa Fe.
We have several people whoplayed on the album in Nashville
and we have several otherpeople who played on the album
who in Nashville and we haveseveral other people who played
on the album in Santa Fe, sowe're creating two different
bands.
That's not something that'sthat I do.
(40:37):
It's not financially viable.
So when I perform, it's just me, or me and Tom, my husband,
backing me up.
He's a much better guitaristthan I and he sings backup.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
So when you're performing anything with another
person or people and they'rebringing their own thing to it,
how do you kind of modulate, youknow, like you're in a
particular mood, you're in aparticular headspace and you're
singing, wanting to sing thesong a particular way, or it's
(41:12):
like moving you in a particularway, and then you get on stage
and you've got other.
You know you've got to sort offreeform it a little bit right.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Yes, and when I have put bands together in recent
years, I have made a.
My plan for the longest time isto surround myself with
musicians who are much betterthan I am and they also know to.
They're not going to bringtheir drama on to the stage.
(41:43):
I'm probably not going tochange the tempo or throw some
extra bars into the middle ofthe song.
I'm going to play by the rules,but they're all such good
musicians and so sensitive thatthey would follow me as I have.
I've sung backup for people offand on for years and if they're
(42:08):
doing their song, I'm usuallynot looking at the audience.
I'm directing energy towardsthem.
I feel like our job is to sendall the energy to the lead
person and they send that out tothe audience.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Oh, it's interesting.
So now I'm going to have adifferent experience when I
observe a band on stage.
I mean, you sort of get a senseof that when you're watching
people that are especially jazz,where you know the attunement
to each other is part of theexperience and part of the
audience experience, even tojust be noticing that Right.
So another question I don'tknow, it seems like out of left
(42:46):
field, but, um, so when youwrite a song, say you, you you
said that often, I know I can'teven remember what you said you
write the music first.
I try and write the lyricsfirst, try to write the lyrics
first, so you've have somelyrics that you, and then you
start to hear the sounds or thetempo or the whatever, and then
(43:06):
you decide which instrumentyou're going to start with piano
.
Have you ever switched gearsLike you thought it was a song
for piano and now all of asudden it?
Speaker 2 (43:15):
becomes a song.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
And how does that happen?
I mean, does the song tell youitself Like people talk about
their paintings, basicallytelling them, informing them as
to what needs?
Speaker 2 (43:27):
to happen.
There's a lot of just kind ofmushing around.
I'm going to try this and I canbe manipulative.
I haven't written anything inthree, four in years.
I'm going to try that and thenI can have disasters.
And then I can have disasters.
(44:02):
I also can be very much.
There's my mother's patchworkquilt over there and I realized
she influenced me.
I will patchwork songs togetherwhere I.
There's a piano riff that wason my work tape for years and I
really liked it.
I couldn't think of anything todo with it and finally had some
lyrics and I'm just going topatchwork these together and see
if they work.
So sometimes you have happyaccidents.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Yeah, so it's more like working in multimedia, if
you were to compare it to apointer.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Yeah, so sometimes it's not that organic media, if
you were to compare it to apointer yeah, so sometimes it's
not that organic.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
So say a little bit more now about you're also a
voice coach and you work withother singer-songwriters, or
mostly people who are just usingtheir voice as an instrument.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
The full gamut.
I've pulled way back fromteaching.
It was how I made my living foryears and I had famous people
on the record labels would sendto me I'm saying, record labels,
what would they call them?
Now I don't know, what wouldthey?
Labels, labels.
And I would teach people whocould barely sing and just loved
(45:05):
singing For the pure joy ofsinging.
And so I, for the pure joy ofsinging, yeah, the pure joy of
it.
And all genres except forclassical, so just a huge
variety of singers and we wouldwork on completely different
(45:26):
things, sometimes very technical.
How do you sing in tune?
How do you?
The irony here is that I've gotthe vocal fatigue now,
post-bronchitis.
But how do you hold on to yourvoice If you're on tour?
So it could be a milliondifferent things.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
And what do you find that will block people from
having their voice?
Because I think this is whereyour particular art form is so
interesting, because, in termsof what I'm trying to offer in
this podcast series, which isgiving people access to their
voice, even though I haven't putit specifically around music,
(46:08):
but finding your voice as anartist or as a human being, you
would be amazed how many singersI worked with who, at one point
or another, said I had ateacher who told me I sucked, my
mother told me to stop singing.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Who in their childhood were completely
slammed for singing, and so whenthey finally got back to
lessons, there was that realm ofjust being allowed to let their
voice do its thing.
And then there was themechanical hey, you've got a
(46:50):
voice, let's work on how tobring it out.
Let's talk about breathing.
Let's talk about resonance,where you're feeling the sound.
Let's talk about how you'reopening or not opening your
mouth, these mechanical thingsthat can improve one's singing.
And then, when that happens,people feel like oh, here's my
(47:11):
voice.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
But here's my voice, beyond just the sound that it
makes what I have.
Here's what's within me that'snow allowed to express itself
right.
So are you really conscious ofother people's speaking voices?
I would imagine that would belike anybody who has sensitivity
to color or flavors Do you kindof know what part of their body
(47:33):
they're using to amplify or not?
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yes, I do notice voices and I hear.
Well in Santa Fe I hear thedryness here in many voices, and
so when someone has a, and youand I, we both have a little bit
of that going on right now.
And you and I, we both have alittle bit of that going on
(47:59):
right now.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
If someone appears with the big, booming voice, I
think, wow, how'd they escapethat Santa Fe air?
I'm definitely dealing withallergies, but it's so
interesting that you could hearthat because we've never spoken
before.
So it's not like you're hearingsomething that's different from
my normal voice.
Never spoken before.
So it's not like you're hearingsomething that's different from
my normal voice.
You're just so attuned to justthe mechanics of voice that you
can hear that.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
I can't tell the difference between someone who
is dry aired out and someonedealing with allergies.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
Right, so yeah, but still, that's.
That's like if you were.
If you and I were having thisconversation on the East coast,
where it's good and humid, youwould probably hear my voice
slightly.
I'm not sure that I would beable to hear the qualitative
differences, but you probablyare that attuned that you could.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
I notice things like that fairly quickly.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
yes, and so when you I'm fascinated with this because
you know, there's all thiswhole idea of like resonance,
because I'm very drawn to veryresonant voices, in part because
for many, many years I didn'trealize I was hearing impaired
and a resonant voice I was ableto hear better than in that
middle register, right, right.
So I'm very drawn to deep, low,big voices, right.
(49:11):
But, um, I'm wondering if youcan tell, like, what's going on
psychologically with somebodybased on how they use the
instrument of their voice.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Fairly quickly.
When I start working withsomebody, I can tell there are
many of us that our brains mustbe severed from the rest of our
bodies.
And where does that happen?
Well, our necks.
And so how do we sever that?
(49:44):
I worked with someone years agowho had been abused as a child
and his voice was just like that.
He was just gripping in histhroat.
I am pinching the sound out, soI that is pretty.
It's easy to figure out whenthat's going on with somebody.
(50:06):
It's not always easy to fix,but there are things you can do
right away that make right soyou mean first, it sounds like
you locate, like where is theinterference?
Right.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
And then like what has to happen, to release it.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Yes, and this is the big one.
The throat is the musclesaround the vocal cords we're all
trying to manipulate and theyshouldn't be that involved, and
yet they are, and it messesthings up.
There's that, and then there'sthe breath, because most of us
(50:42):
there's that book that came outa few years ago called yes, and
he's saying most of us arewalking around holding our
breath.
And it's true, I love that book.
I had it for at least a yearbefore I read it, because I'm
not going to learn anything fromthis.
And then I started reading andthought whoa, nellie, this is
(51:06):
great.
Yeah, what a great book.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
Yeah Well, and I just think that it's breath and song
and dance and these things thatare so native to our human
experience that, as we live inthis sort of mechanized world
that has become very left brainand very not integrated, and so
I think having access to breathis so primordial.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
And to be able to have that be your instrument
must be such a cold he wouldplunge into a depression and
(52:01):
everyone in his workforce.
Speaker 2 (52:03):
They'd all get depressed too, because work
would stop until he had hisvoice back.
But I think a lot of singers,we're so identified with our
ability to vocalize that whenit's impaired, well sure we are.
(52:23):
Yeah, things are jumbled.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
Do you notice the difference?
This might be an odd question,but do you notice the difference
between you mentioned earlierintroverts and extroverts?
Do introverts and extrovertshave a different way of using
their voice?
Speaker 2 (52:36):
do introverts and extroverts have a different way
of using their voice?
I don't think so.
No, I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
I think that plays out more in the performance
realm, but when they'reperforming- can you tell the
difference between an introvertand an extrovert on stage
Usually?
Speaker 2 (52:54):
But there are many, many, many artists out there who
would say they're introvertsand they have figured out what
to do on stage so they havetheir stage persona.
It's like when I go into—I wasat a book reading a couple days
ago and I went into sociableSusan mode and that's what you
(53:15):
do.
I figured out how to do that atsome point.
That's your professionalism,right yeah.
And so you figure out thesethings, even though, at the end
of the day, introverts mightwant to go to a noisy bar and
have a bunch of people aroundthem, and someone like me would
like to go home and read a goodbook.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
Yeah, yeah.
So switching gears just alittle bit.
What do you think is happeningwith the music industry going
forward?
I mean, I just saw aninteresting article speaking
again of fine art, that the bluechip art market is really
changing.
The new generation comingthrough is less interested in
spending a gajillion dollars ona piece of artwork.
They want something moreintimate, they want something
(53:56):
more immediately identifiable.
How do you find that that'saffecting the music industry or
your particular corner of themusic industry At?
Speaker 2 (54:06):
some point and this is, I think, a very rarefied air
At some point I thought I'mjust going to teach and that's
how I'm going to make my livingand what I do musically.
I'm not going to worry aboutmaking money, I just am going to
try and get the music out to asmany people as possible.
(54:27):
That is not the case for a30-year-old singer-songwriter
who's paying rent, who isworking a job that is not paying
all of her bills and maybe getsa bunch of airplay on Spotify
(54:48):
and then gets a check for I mean, I constantly have friends
posting their checks on Facebook.
Here I just got three centsfrom Spotify, or you know, $12.
So the music industry is rough,rough, rough now and the people
(55:13):
I know who are making a go ofit are touring all the time and
they are just in their cardriving to gigs and they're not
home much.
And this is why I thought I'mgoing to teach, so I can stay
home a little bit more.
It's a rough, rough industry.
Speaker 1 (55:34):
Well, and especially when you consider that there's
such a difference between Idon't know why I want to call it
sort of the acoustic thesinger-songwriter who's actually
writing every word, writingevery note, and these people who
are doing I know it's a popularsort of I don't know what you'd
even call it a genre, but thesesort of mashups where they just
take bits and pieces ofelectronically collaging songs
(55:59):
pieces of, you know,electronically collaging songs
and, um, you know you've gotthese kids who have these, these
keyboards that make all thedifferent instruments and all
the different sounds and some ofthem are really quite.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
There's some great, amazing, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
But it's such a different thing and it seems,
you know, like that I reallyfeel for you sort of analog
people out there.
Speaker 2 (56:18):
Absolutely.
It's a tough way to make aliving anymore.
And even in Nashville, when Imoved there in 2002, well, I had
friends who would write a hitsong that someone famous would
record and they'd buy a house.
That doesn't happen anymore.
(56:39):
That's not going to happenanymore If you get a cut with an
artist, you don't have thependulum.
Speaker 1 (56:45):
Swing back.
Speaker 2 (56:46):
No.
Speaker 1 (56:47):
It's gone.
Speaker 2 (56:49):
Well, people don't buy CDs anymore, they listen to
Spotify, and Spotify pays nextto nothing for airing a song, so
it's just for artists.
It's a terrible state of theindustry and artists now are
constantly looking at other waysto make a living.
(57:12):
The irony when we were livingin Nashville we were having a
backyard party at one point andI was looking around and
thinking that guy had wrote twonumber one hits.
That one is pretty well knowntouring singer, songwriter
everywhere.
I was just seeing all thesepeople.
We're all around a picnic tableand what was anyone talking
(57:34):
about?
They were talking about realestate.
Because when we moved toNashville in 2002, you could buy
a house for cheap and so andyou could live for cheap and be
a musician.
And so people move there.
They'd buy cheap houses, they'dfix them up, they'd rent them
out and that is how they fundedtheir musical life.
Speaker 1 (58:00):
Well, it's such a bizarre thing to think about
when you think how, again,native music I mean making music
is so primal to us as humansand yet it's no longer a viable
way necessarily to make a livingfrom what it sounds like.
And yet people are still bornwith this drive to make music,
(58:23):
and making music is sort of ametaphor for, you know, like
living a joyous life.
So it'll be really interestingto see what happens to whether
it's the music industry or justwhat happens to music and how we
as human beings continue alongthis trajectory of being musical
beings.
Music and dance and all thesethings that are so integral to
(58:44):
being human.
Speaker 2 (58:46):
I like to think that the drive is so strong that even
if someone has to work a coupleof jobs, they will squeeze in
that 20 minutes at night and itstill brings them joy, and what
they're working on may bringsomeone else joy.
But I have for many yearsthought about the pragmatic part
(59:11):
of being an artist, and I wasthinking of Tina Mayan when I
was driving across the countryand we stopped at the hotel in
Winslow, arizona, where all ofher stuff is there and I thought
this is brilliant.
She got out of LA, she has aplace where she can do all of
her work and the kicker of itwas she had one piece that I
(59:34):
just wow, this isn't.
This wasn't available so Idon't have it now, but she was
doing very moving work and shehad a vehicle for displaying it.
And they were making a livingbecause they owned a hotel.
Speaker 1 (59:52):
So I guess we'll just see those creative iterations
hopefully coming up and hard topredict where it's going to
hotel.
So I guess we'll just see thosecreative iterations hopefully
coming up and hard to predictwhere it's going to go.
Speaker 2 (59:59):
I think that's the optimist in me is hoping for
that.
Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
Great.
Well, I think that's theperfect place to leave it, and
thank you so much.
I loved this conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
Well, thanks for joining us today.
Please like and follow us onartstormingorg, where you'll
find a list of our shows, atranscript of this episode with
links to the guest page, as wellas our other projects.
Art Storming is brought to youand supported by ArtBridge and
listeners like you.
Look for us on your favoritepodcast platforms.
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