TRAINER'S EYE #141 - "Roselia Following the Sweet Scent to Community" ft. Greg Leatherman from Very Random Encounters - As The Pokeball Turns

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg Leathermen (00:00):
Hello, I am Greg, and this is my Pokemon
story.

David Hernandez (00:49):
Welcome to as the Pokemon Turns, where we
interview people about theirexperience with Pokemon.
My name is David Hernandez I'mjoined by Liz Sander, AKA.
You may know him as Greg, one ofthe speakers from It's super
effective here to share hisexperience with Pokemon Greg,
welcome to Ask the PokemonTurns.
Thank you for coming on.

Yeah.
Thanks for having me.
Hello.
Hello everybody.

Hello.
Hello.
It definitely is, and it'salways nice to see people who
are fans of the franchise, whohave been fans for a long time.
Because I told you before werecord, we're kind of a
different breed.
We've been through ins and outsand the ups and downs of what
comes with Pokemon.
I wanna start with this, uh,question.
What keeps you engaged when itjust comes to Pokemon itself?

It's funny because I didn't have the same
experience that a lot of peopledo.
This wasn't that I picked up asa kid.

Mm-hmm.

not a child when this started.
a full grown adult.
but I find the whole seriesincredibly charming.
It makes me think of a betterworld in some ways.
it's generally a good gameplay.
I find the stories that theytell when they're bad, mildly
interesting.

(01:56):
you know, I'm a, game designer.
I play a lot of role playinggames.
I find the world really just afascinating world to think
about.
Be in, think about the lore.
For the most part, with someexceptions.
I like pretty much every aspectof the games, and a bunch of the
side games.
I think their strength hasalways been like, one of the

(02:18):
things they've done is they'vemade a thousand creatures now
and all for about like four,that somebody's favorite.
There was like four that werevoted on that got zero That got
zero votes, but almosteverything else had, everybody
has a favorite.

That's kind of crazy though, like we're a
thousand deep and then you know,like you said, the world
building and just how deep itgoes into is always been
something that's interested inme because there's always like.
The surface level stuff, andthen there's always like, if you
go deeper into it, so you don'te either way, you still get kind
of an experience and the moredeeper you get into the
franchise, the more you kind ofrealize like, man, they really

(02:53):
thought this stuff through.

I wish they thought it threw more, um.

What's one of your big peeves?
Let's type, let's talk aboutwhat's one thing that bugs you.

so it really came forward in, so I mean they
fixed one of the longstandingissues, right?
Like so they finally stated inOmega, ruby, alpha sapphire that
each console is its ownuniverse.
like they finally solved thatproblem.
Like you're, all of these are intheir own universes, which is
why, you know, the Let's GoCanto, which is in its own

(03:26):
switch universe is differentthan the Game Boy canto.
Like they are differentuniverses.
They have different rules thatthey play by, they have done a
good job of sort of implyingthat if you inadvertently cross
universes.
You will lose your memory.
So we have examples like Annabelcoming into Omega, Ruby, alpha Z

(03:49):
remember who she is.
INO in, legend Zaist has nomemory, has vague memories of
what was going on.
The problem is that we get tothe Scarlet and Violet, where
they play with that idea, butrefuse to actually answer the
question of paradox.
do they mean by paradox?

(04:09):
And they begin to play with theidea of time travel, which
effective in Violet, like goinginto the future.
We have no idea of what'shappening in the future, but if
Sada actually goes into thepast, that creates a whole slew
of problems.
would be a record.
We know they dig up fossils.
There would be things about aperson traveling to the past

(04:33):
that we would find record of,and they just sort of refuse to
answer that.
They also don't really answerwhy the paradox Pokemon aren't
any of the Fossil Pokemon, whythey're so different.
Like they just sort of refusedto answer those lower questions
and they kept promising like,we're gonna learn the secret of
Area Zero.
We're like, cool.
We're gonna answer what paradoxPokemon are.

(04:54):
Nope, it's just a turtle.
Okay.
Like, the turtle does what?
What is the turtle doing?
How?
How does that affect paradoxthat you've created?
Are they people's dreams?
Are they wishes?
Are they actually from adifferent time?
Is it a different dimension?
Like what are, you've created alore, but you will not go enough

(05:17):
to actually make somethingconcrete, which.
I don't like, I want concreteanswers so that things
consistent and play by the samerules from game to game.
And they really, in Scarlet andViolet, were like, no, we're not
gonna answer that.
And we're just gonna be looseygoosey with it.
Like they also, copped out atthe end of Legends Archus as

(05:40):
well, like, how are we in thepast?
But it is a different region andthey don't sort of explain how
that transfers over into, intoactual Cino.
They're sort of like, oh, wellit, it's different region.
And then for some reason his SuiPokemon are now in the future,
but we're not gonna explain howthey got there either that it's

(06:01):
gonna be in raids or they'rejust gonna be on this area.
And the people found them.
Or Blood Moon, UR Sauna was justarou, like swam here and was
just around.
So it's been around for.
many thousand years?
How many years?
Like what?
What are you doing with thesetimelines?
Like I just want a level ofconsistency to just so that I

(06:21):
feel like somebody at thecompany has a big book of, of
lore and is actually like, thisis the lore of our world and I
just don't feel that they dothat.
And it makes me bananas.

And that's the tricky part with time travel and
forward or backwards andstories.
They usually are tried bestavoid it because it creates this
kind of.
Oddly enough paradox.
Right?
And it bugged me too, becauseyou think about legends, we'll
start with there.
You got his and Arana, you'vegot his and Zora.

(06:55):
Okay then how are they not inthe present?
Right?
And then you think about you,you alluded to the fossil
Pokemon, they're, how are theynot alluded to in Pokemon, um,
Scarlet.
And you've got now more of theseinconsistencies and you're kind
of just left off.
Oh, it just this mystery

Yeah.
trying to string together thelore, like they did a lot of
heavy lifting by finally sayingeach one was a different
universe, but they just sort ofrefuse to really tie it down.

mm-hmm.

think like, at this point, it feels like they
just kind of don't care aboutbeing consistent, which is a
choice.
I'm, fine with that.
If they would just sort of comeout and just say, we're, you
know, these are, we are tellingmyths, we are telling mythology,
we are creating fairytales andit doesn't have to be

(07:45):
consistent.
I'm sort of fine with that.
If they would just make thatstatement.

I think it would've been fine if we had
just found out that all theseworlds are just from a memory
from a kid.
they started from collectingbugs.
That was the whole story.
And this, his kid just maybe hadjust been writing stories the
entire time and were just likefigments of his dreams.
I would've actually been betterwith that than what we're trying
to do now.
But anyway, go ahead.

I mean it makes the dream world even more
complicated.
'cause they introduced that.
It's like, okay, what is, whereis that?
What does that mean?

A dreaming and a dream.

out of the dream world?
It what, what is that even?
Yeah, it's, it's wild.

Well, you know, obviously you have a lot of
experience.
Let's start from the beginningreal quick.
Let's, uh, dive into that.
You know, what's your firstexperience with Pokemon?

So my first experience was when the games
came out in 1998 here inAmerica.
I.
Was a full blown adult and I wasgonna go sit in line'cause it
was the nineties and youcouldn't do things online.
and I were gonna go sit in lineto pick up Star Wars tickets
'cause you had to sit in line toactually get tickets.

(08:50):
Like, so we were like, okay,we're gonna go there, we're
gonna get there at like eight inthe morning.
The box office opens at likefour, so we're just gonna sit in
line.
And I was like, well I needsomething to do while I'm
sitting in line'cause I'm notgonna talk to my brother for
roughly eight hours.
It's just not gonna happen.

Oh, you're having to camp out for this?
Oh, wow.

yeah, we had to go sit line out, well camp out.
It was indoors, it was at theMall of America, so it wasn't
really, it wasn't like out onthe street, but

sure.

indoors and I was a big comic reader and I
kept seeing ads for this newrole playing game Pokemon.
And I'm like, I like.
JR pgs, I am a big final fantasyfan.
This looks fun.
I'll just pick it up.
'cause what's the worst thingthat happened?
I pick it up, I don't like it.
put it away and play a differentNo harm, no foul, like whatever.

(09:41):
It's 30 bucks.
popped it in started and I wasimmediately hooked.
I'm like, this hits all thenotes.
It's a good RPG, it's got asemi-decent combat system.
It's got super cute creatures.
And I was in, I'm like, yep,this is a really great series.
and then I started, like,expanded out from there, like

(10:02):
looking at the anime and I'mlike, oh, the anime's fine.
know, it's got its charm, butit's also very much geared
towards kids, because it's not acomplex series and they aren't
very consistent.
But I just thought.
The creatures that they werecreating and sort of the world
that they were hinting to werereally fascinating.
And I just loved it.

(10:22):
I'm like, this is just, and it'salso just fun, right?
Like Gen one didn't work verywell.
Half the moves didn't do whatthey said they would like.
It took me years to get over thefact that Swords dance actually
worked and Focus Energy actuallyworked.
'cause they didn't work in Genone.
So my first experience was like,why would I ever use these?
They don't work, they don't doanything that it says, I am

(10:43):
reading the text, but that isnot happening in this game.
then I was just, I was in, like,I was just sold on the series,
on the concept, very let down bygen two.
And then gen three, which is mygen, really sort of solidified
like, this is a real, this is areal thing.
They're gonna really try to makethis a franchise.

I think you're the first one I've ever heard.
Who doesn't like gen two?

Gen two is awful.

Wow.
Why?
What's your reasoning behindthat?
That's very interesting.

Gen two, and again, I will preface this like
I was a full blown adult playingthis game and realizing it was a
poor of everything they did inGen one.
They made a tiny region, theybrought back team Rocket, but
made them worse.
So instead of making them acriminal organization that was

(11:35):
actually a threat n Gen two,they suddenly made them a cult
to personality that couldn'tfunction without a leader, which
is like, okay, why now?
'cause you were a threat beforeand you're leader left and
you're still around, but you'rejust lost and you don't know
what to do without Giovanni.
Like that doesn't make sensewith what you were before and

(11:56):
you're doing the same things.
Okay?
So instead of taking over adepartment store and a scientist
place, you're taking over aradio station.
It's the exact same plot line.
the gym leaders didn't use Gentwo Pokemon half the time.
It's like, what are you, whatare you doing?
Why?
it really heavily relies on alot of backtracking.
And then instead of having abigger, more flushed out region,

(12:20):
they're like, well, let's goback to canto'cause this is our
last hurrah.
And they didn't do anything.
They didn't do anything overthere.
The gym leaders didn't reallyprogress the levels between
things that you capture and thegrasp versus where the levels
are for the gym.
Leaders are incongruent.
Like they don't try to match thelevels.
They don't have a set reason foryou to be over there other than

(12:41):
you're just revisiting a gamethat you had just played two
years ago.
It was clear, and they have saidthis, it was clear when they
started that that was going tobe the last game in the series.
And I think they phoned in a lotof that game.
they weren't forward thinkingwhen they made gen two.
They were, let's just repeat thesuccess we had of Gen one.

(13:02):
And it's a good formula torepeat your success.
It's not a great formula ifyou're going to have a
franchise.
and so gen two, as an adult,hearing how Angry Gen Two made
parents because of the day nightcycle, the events that happened
on certain days, parents werejust furious that their kids
were like making weird demandsabout this dumb game.

(13:25):
And I think really that, sort ofhurt them for a while going
forward.
it's just a problematicgeneration that I always look at
like.
You had the chance to reallymake a sparkling sequel and you
just kind of made a rehash ofGen one.
Thank God.
Gen three came along because Genthree was when I could tell that

(13:45):
they were being very deliberateabout the games they were gonna
make going forward.
And Gen three really is aturning point.
I look at that as like one ofthe most important generations
because they were willing tosay, we know we can't connect to
the old games, so we're leavingthem behind and we'll figure it
out as we go forward, but we areactually going to move forward.

I think you bring up a good point because a
lot of people who grew up withGen two, gen one were younger.
You know, were still not able toprocess the reasoning behind the
story.
And you kind of bring up some ofthe flaws I guess, that kinda
get overlooked to where TeamRocket appeared as a threat in
Gen one.

Mm-hmm.

know, cops and everybody were worried about
these organizations and then yougo to gen two and they're in a
slow poke, well, couldn't slowpoke tail for reasons.
And it kinda shows that it kindawas just duct taped together in
a way.
But then I loved Gen three forthe reasons you said.
I felt like the world buildingwas much better.
I really enjoyed the plot line,although I didn't understand

(14:43):
Team Mwa at the time.
I understood more team magma,but that's just because I didn't
get the whole political side ofit within Japan.
But I felt more complete, moreat home when it came to Gen
three.

Gen three is interesting'cause Gen three was
the first time they decided totackle a big world question of
environmentalism.
But Pokemon has this terriblehistory of asking a big question
and not having an answer for it.
'cause we don't have an like, wedon't have, have an answer for
environmentalism,

Mm-hmm.

their general answer is like, well, what do
you do about.
Needing more water or needingmore land, like this is an
environmental impact, it doesn'tmatter.
Just defeat the, just defeat thebad guys and never think about
it again.
Like it is their solution ofjust defeat the bad guy and you
don't have to think about it.
I, I think it's one of theproblems they have, like, I
applaud you for asking bigquestions, but you know, maybe

(15:38):
have a better answer, but like,they're a conservative company,
they're not going to give a verycontroversial answer.

right.

gonna be like, well just beat up the bad guy
and don't think about it.

When it comes to gen three.
I guess, what are some of yourfavorite parts?
I know you said, like I said,they ask star giants questions,
but they don't answer'em, and wesee that more and more.
But what about just Gen threespecifically, since that's your
favorite?

they were very deliberate about.
How they wanted to make gamesgoing forward.
So Gen three gives us doublebattles, which becomes the
standard for pretty mucheverything they do going
forward, right?
Like double battles become thething that they use for VGC for
a million things.
they were also willing to say,we are going to start over.

(16:21):
Like there are no, it is a wholenew polka dex except for the few
things that you get in, in thesafari zone.
You are not getting into the oldstuff.
You are starting over in a brandnew region

the first Dex exit.
Yeah.

everything new.
You have never seen these thingsbefore.
they really did.
And I mean it's important to thestory that you're half on land
and half on water.
Like they are tying the land tothe story that you're being told
there is not enough land.
There is not enough water andyou are forced to deal with the

(16:56):
two sides of this islandstructure of, okay.
Like one group is literally yourun outta land and now you're on
the water and you're like, okay,well there's also too much
water.
So what is going, like, theyreally did try to do something
there.
They really tried to create twovery unique, interesting,

(17:18):
nuanced, I mean they only coulddo so much, but like the
philosophies of aqua and magma,both sort of wanting the same
thing but really coming at it attwo different ways and depending
on which game you played, youwere getting one or the other
perspective, like they reallydid a lot of really interesting
things with just sort ofexpanding the world, getting
deliberate about their design,getting deliberate about the

(17:41):
Pokemon that they are going toinclude in a region.
While it is far from a perfectgame, although I think Emerald
is probably one of the best inthe series, you can tell that
they were beginning to think,oh, okay, so what is this series
going to be in 10 years, 20years, 30 years, 40 years?
What are we putting as the rootsto build off of?

(18:01):
And I think you can really feelthat in gen three.

And a lot of stuff that we did in gen three
still exist today.
They solidified the items.
There's no longer PRZ berry.
There's, you know, lum berries,cherry berries, and all this.
You've got double bowels, youalluded to, and you've got this
whole idea of.
They start asking biggerquestions.
Now how they answer those ofcourses differently?
I think they try to come tomiddle ground.

(18:25):
'cause you think of, I thinkit's called Pacific Log to where
I think they build the bridgeson top of the sea.
Kind of maybe leaning towardslike, oh you can still kind of
build on top of the sea despiteyou not really needing land.
And then you got the top of thecity, which is built inside of a
crater.

Yeah.

And I think they kind of try to address the
answer that way.
Just it's not as clear becauseit's, some of it's, yeah, it's
just not as clear.
And you know, like I said, you,you said you saw Pokemon's not
gonna be that

Mm-hmm.

like this.
The answer, this has gotta beway for, that's just not who
they Yeah.
Always been.
But sometimes it leaves stufflike this very nuanced.
The one that always comes tomind for me is of course black
and white to where they askactually a very good question of
are we kind of a enslaving thesePokemon?
Or in some ways are we havingthese Pokemon, you know, they
should be free kind of thing.
And they don't really doubledown on it.

it's really, they really had a chance to
answer it it's not a difficultanswer to come to.
I think a lot of people sort of,if you look at the capture
mechanics and how they actually.
Sort of present to you thisworks.
Like the biggest clue, thatanswers that question is you

(19:32):
cannot capture something thathas been knocked out because
they have to be conscious toagree to enter the pact, right?
Like that is a huge part of howthat ga that they don't ever
really say.
But if you look at the gamemechanics and understand, they
are clearly saying the creaturehas to be awake and aware to be

(19:56):
willing to agree to beingcaptured, to being a part of
this team.
That if you knock them out, theyare no longer available to you.
They cannot.
Agree become part of this team.
Like it is an important, it is athing that's been a part of that
game that entire time.
And they walked up to thatdoorstep and then just walked

(20:18):
away said, well just go beat himup.

Yeah.

And then again, just beat up the bad guy and we
don't have to think about it.
And I think game plays with theidea of people wondering, am I
really not in a goodrelationship with this thing?
And the interesting is they giveyou so many examples of how it
is a mutual re relationship, butthey never really offer an
answer like n being able to pullPokemon.

(20:45):
Like if you watch how Nprogresses through those teams,
every time you fight him, he'sfighting with Pokemon from the
areas that you're in.
His

Mm-hmm.

Stay consistent because he is pulling on that
relationship of things thattrust him will fight for him
because he can speak to them andthen they, and then they're set
free.
He doesn't believephilosophically in forming a
permanent attachment.
And through that time, he isalso commenting on the bond you
have with your captured Pokemon,the level of trust.

(21:16):
And they keep, they walk up tothe door and just refuse to open
it.
And that's part of the thingwhere I'm like, it, it, it, all
the pieces are there.
Just be bold and make thestatement, just say, this is how
it is.

And I mean, it's not that controversial
statement'cause that's reallywhat Pokemon's built on is that
relationship.
So it makes no sense for that,at least to not be kind of
doubled down.
Like, no, you aren't slave inPokemon.
We're working together.
And then, I don't know.
That's been something that, it'sone of the few critiques, but
that's something you have tokind of dig deep and really
think about.
That's bugged me when it comesto black and white.
Love the games, love the story.

(21:52):
But

great.

yeah,

but yeah, they, again, they are just, they are
afraid to, put answers in stoneand that, that has always been a
thing that I'm like, just comeon, just please just answer one
of your questions.

we never found out who Ash's dad is, and I'm
still winning to this day.

I mean, the funny thing about like the first
games is they are clearlycommenting on the devastation of
World War ii, right?
Like, this is a post World Warii, world surge is from America
who talked in the war.
you know, it is definitelyJapan's missing generation.
Like you can talk about it, likehow devastating, like a lot of

(22:33):
kids didn't have parentsbecause.
The effects of, of war took outa generation like they, again,
they hint to it and it is verymuch a part of their culture.
They just won't answer thatquestion.
Like, yeah, Ash's dad probablydidn't survive

The, maybe he really did go on a journey and

Japanese people didn't survive post World War
ii.

mm

We did, we did a bad, we did a bad there.

just a little bit.

A little bad.

Let's ask like, what's, what Pokemon do you
like?
What's your favorite?
Let's start there.

Oh, my favorite is Rosalea forever,

Why rose?

so when I saw it in gen three, it was.
Everything that I think makes agood Pokemon design.
It's expressive.
It immediately had apersonality.
It looks like a creature thatfits into nature.
It has a very natural feel, butstill has a lot of expression to

(24:11):
it.
I don't necessarily agree withthe typing'cause I think there's
way too many poison grass types.
but I think they really sort ofhit what I think is, makes a
good Pokemon design.
Something that feels like it ispart of a natural world, like
these little forces of naturethat slide like Pikachu being an

(24:33):
electric mouse.
Like it is a mouse that feeds onelectricity, like it feels like
an outcropping of the naturalworld.
And Rose really felt that sameway to me.
Plus I just think it haspersonality for days.
Like it's just.
It's got so much expression inits face for how basic its face
is, and they can do so much withit.

Mm-hmm.

Um, particularly in the Colosseum
and

Yes, I was about to say.
So

1000% was my favorite.
Yeah, I love it.

yeah.
What is that?
I think it's when it getsattacked, it has its roses on
the hips and it just goes like,

falls back and then gets mad on its and
saunters forth.
Pure genius.
Love it.

One that I always think of.
It's more recent.
Flamingo is one of my favorites.
It

great.

is so simple, but it has so much depth to it
to where it's a fighting symboland it's a flight.
It's a fighting bird, and I justlove it to death.
Oh my gosh.

like a giant foot.

What about the evolution?
What about gen four with therosary?
You know, you got Badu and thenit got the evolution with
rosary.
Do you still have that kind ofsame fondness, or did it not get
to you as much?

line.
I think the thing that keeps mefrom really loving Rose raid
they made the choice to not makethe pou kts detailed.
If you look

Mm.

they are very plain and they are very abstract
in a lot of ways.
So you, so, so you went from areally detailed flower to a very
abstract bouquet shape.
And I, I don't enjoy it.
I think it was a misstep if theyhad just added a few more lines
of detail to actually show thattheir flowers, I think I would

(26:12):
like it more.
I mean, I still really love theline, but me from it from being
in my top 10 because I justthink they really just weren't
intentional with that part ofthe design.

I know you love the role playing aspect, you
love the story.
You mentioned gen three after,you know, gen four and beyond,
like what are some of, what'sanother story that you enjoyed?

Um, I think the best story in all of the games
is the story of Sunden Moon.
I think they really told ageneration of kids who grew up.
Playing these games, Hey, maybeyour parents weren't great and
you should probably go totherapy to talk about it.

(26:57):
Um, because they really tackledan incredibly important family
dynamic.
Like how do you deal with familytrauma?

Mm-hmm.

with a narcissistic parent?
and also showing a group of newparents like this is a game that
isn't a generation where they'dbe introducing this to their
kids and they're playing ittogether and they're being
confronted with, here's thedamage that can be done through
parenting to children.
Here is sort of theresponsibility that you now have

(27:32):
as the next generation, asyou're introducing your kids to
these games.
Look at the effect that parentshave on children and maybe
examine and.
What you're doing how you are.
And think about the weird, aboutfamily dynamics, think about how

(27:53):
kids grow, think about all thesethings and inde what
independence for kids means.
Like this is a really smallcontain story of here's family
dynamics set against, again, auniverse that's sort of out of
control.
But again, that's saying you areparents in a chaotic world where

(28:14):
very bad things are happeninghere.
Let's talk about yourresponsibility.
Like so many parental bonds arerepresented in those games.
Some of them are really good andsome of'em are broken.
Like are so many ways theycomment on family in that game.
And I think it's really a greatview into.

(28:36):
Kids and parents, the damagethat they do to each other, how
they work through that, how youcan work through that.
What are good examples?
I just think it's a reallybrilliantly done story set in
sort of this fantastical,oversized world.

And I think that's kind of going to show
that on your point, I thinkabout, you know, when I grew up,
my dad was more the old school.
Macho, you don't play kittystuff kind of game, but that's
just the time period he grew on.
Now you've got people who arebecoming parents who grew up
with Pokemon.
How do you approach thatquestion to where, how do you

(29:13):
engage with your, kids in thatway to where you say like, this
is what happens.
Like you said, if you don't havethe right role model, this is
what happens when you've gotsomebody who doesn't have your
best interest in the child.
'cause that happens so much, andlike you said, it points to like
try to be something different,try to be something that's
better and hopefully leave abetter lasting impression,

Yeah, those

but

brilliant.

mm-hmm.

just, I just think they re and the, and the
problem is, is they sort ofruined the story and Alt Ultra
Sun and Ultra Moon are bettergames,

Mm-hmm.

is way worse.
They really stepped away from,of how really bad loosening is
in Sun and Moon.
They really sort of try to giveher more justification for how
she is, which is like, youdidn't really, you didn't need
it.
Like you could have kept thestory the same.
It, it, it is an important storythat I think they really felt

(30:06):
like maybe we sort of stepped onparents to a little bit too
hard.
We'll back off a, the adultultrasound ultra moon.
Um, but I, I do think it isvery.
Good and intentional when theytake time to think about who
their entire audience is and howthey wanna speak to them.
And I think Sun and Moon is aprime example of considering

(30:27):
kids and adults playing thatgame.

Now around that time, there was actually a
mobile game that I heard wasvery popular and I wanted to
know, it's called Pokemon Go.
I think you've heard it.
Maybe.
How was that, whenever it cameout?
Were you kind of involved?
Like how deep did you get intothat game?

I mean, it was, first year of Pokemon Go was
phenomenal and super exciting,even though the game didn't work
very well, like it would have amap.
It's like there's a Pokemon twofeet away and you'd go there and
like nothing.
No, there's not, there's nothinghere.
It was super, super excitingbecause the promise of the game

(31:06):
could be felt endless.
Right?
Like you really felt like thisis, I am taking these things on
a journey with me.
I am longer in a solitary,in-house personal game.
I am walking out in the worldand finding other people who are

(31:26):
also walking out in the world,who are the joy of Pokemon in a
very communal way.
Um, and I think it was soexciting.
It was so fun.
when you didn't know how thegame really worked and you'd run
into people and you're like,okay, there's something down
here.
I just, I just ran into it.
Let's go down here.
It was on this corner.
And you'd go to that corner andtry to find it.

(31:47):
And then of course the mapwasn't working.
You're like, okay, well it's notworking.
Or my game just locked up andfroze.
So,

Yeah,

oh well, It was super fun.
It was super exciting.
yeah, I had a lot of fondmemories about that summer.
Uh, it's, it was also everybodysort of knew up here in the
northern states that this was alimited, this is a limited
thing.
'cause it was soon to going tobe very hard to walk outside.
it's like when it gets to benegative 60 up here, I'm like,

(32:14):
I'm not, not going out there.
I'm not, I'm

but,

down the block.

you're supposed to travel the lands, Greg.
You're supposed to like get outthere and you're

The lands are trying to kill me right now.
No, thank you.
Uh, I'm out.
I'm gonna sit in here

in the heater.

and where it's warm.
Uh, and then like the cracksbegan to show like, people in
rural areas were having realhard time with the game because
without people they wouldn'tspawn.
things spawned more in citiesand not in parks and nature,
which sort of felt like.

Yeah.

not how this game is supposed to work.
Like these are, like when you'rein cities in the game, there
aren't Pokemon around.
Then you go out into the grassand there are, and it's very
different and go.

Mm-hmm.

for that first year, I think it was just super,
super exciting just to have, acultural phenomenon to have so
many people all excited aboutthis one thing and we all got to
share in it.
Like, I'll never forget thatfirst year.
It was just a super, it was justsuper fun.

And that's always been something that's
bugged me with Pokemon Go, likeyour example.
I've always wished that it wasmore nature.
I wish Pokemon you had to go outand search for in that way.
But if you know you go to aparking lot, that's where the
best way to catch Pokemon is.
It's so counterintuitive and itruins the idea of what Pokemon
Go was built on,

Yeah.

you can travel around and catch random Pokemon
and I don't know that I didn'tcatch it right away.
It took me a couple years.
I was more addicted to it, butslowly became more of what is
Pokemon Go really about.
It just seemed like it's more ofjust getting people this one
location for an event and that'sit.
And it's slowly has become,that's all the game has become.

(33:57):
It's been a shell of what it'sformed self, in my opinion.

I mean, it, it is, its former self, that's,
that's sort of the problem.
and it fundamentally hasn't Itis the same game we had in 2016.
They've added a few more things,but ultimately it's the same
game has the same mechanics thatask you to do the same things.

(34:24):
As they are now pushing more ofthe games and it's like a
limited polka deck and youshould catch all these things
and we give you special things.
The catching of things in thatgame no longer feels unique or
surprising.
Like we know all the Pokemonexist, like we know what you're
putting in your game and we knowhow you're gonna drip feed them.

(34:45):
like I still play the game onand off.

Mm-hmm.

you know, I still interact with Pokemon
stuff, but, I don't know whattheir future needs to look like
to really breathe a lot of lifeback into the game.
it's an old game, like it is bymost standards for most people.
An ancient game.

Take it this way.
Imagine if you played PokemonRed Balloon yellow for years,
like eventually, as much as welove Gen one,

we have been playing those games for 30 years
and I if, if we get anotherCanto game for the 30th, which I
know we're going to, and I knowI'm gonna buy it, I'm just gonna
be mad about it because I'm sotired of going to Canto.
I have been to Canto so manytimes now.
No,

right.
I've always said, we're gonnaget a cantos legends game.
That's what we're gonna get intothe 30th anniversary.

no, no.
I don't want it.
I don't want, I would be,actually, I would be happy with
a sequel or a Prequel to cantosomething that's not the same
game.
Like if we get a sequel, like,here is Canto, 30 years later,
would 100% go back to

Oh, so you don't mind that?
You just don't want to see arehash of the

play that game again.
I have played it.
I played the first ones.
I played Fire, red Leaf Green.
I have played, let's Go Pikachuand Evie.
I had to play through it.
Every time I've played gen two,I have to go back to that region
and do it all over again with nochanges.
I have played the death out ofthat original game.

(36:15):
I want something new.

Greg's going off.
I love it.
I know that I had a chance tomeet you briefly at Go Fest, New
York City,

Yep.

and I want to ask, so like, is that the only,
I'm sure you've been to otherlive events for Pokemon.
What are some of the other onesyou've gone to and what has it
been like to go to those?

so I, again, having come to an adult.
For this series, I had money totravel.
Things I've done, I did all themall tours.

Oh, wow.

I went to the one that was the Mall of
America.
I've done all the mall tours togo there and play.
And so mal tours were important'cause like, there was a bug in
Ruby and Sapphire.
There's no internet, right?
Like you can't download a patch,

Right.

you had to go.
So I went to there to get mygame patch so it would work
properly.
Um, and then just being around abunch of people again, it's was
awkward at that time'cause itwas still early in the series
and it was still very much a kidseries.
So being an adult at this placewithout children of my own,
like, you'd have to find theother adults around your age and

(37:23):
be like, okay, we're just allplaying this game and we're

Yeah.

And like, they didn't have divisions of
tournaments then.
So if you were gonna do VGC.
You were like, hi, I am 30 andmy opponent is 12.
this is not how this should beworking.
This is not cool people.
but, but they were super fun.
Like they are really invested, Ithink, in trying to build a

(37:46):
solid community.
And those events were a way inthe very beginning to sort of
find other people like you fromaround the world when we didn't
really have an easy way tocommunicate with each other and
just sort of buy merch and justbe immersed in the world that
they're creating and just havefun with it and be like, this is

(38:06):
just a dumb thing I do for fun.
And I'm here to look at all thefun things and take pictures and
just sort of play these games ina communal environment and enjoy
it.
so yeah, I've done all the malltours.
I've done a lot of the go fests.
I've done Chicago's and.
I have never done a world I needto, worlds always falls at a
really awkward time where I'mlike, I can't make that work.

(38:27):
'cause I have a nine to five joband I only have so much vacation

Right.

this is problematic.

like to have money to come in so I can keep
doing this stuff future.
So it's kind of important.
Yeah.

funds and vacation time to be able to do
these things.
So, but I've done some of theminor regionals I've done, I've
kind of visited because I justenjoy meeting the community.
Um, it's fun to meet people whowould, who listen to the show
and meet them and just talk tothem.
Like actually connect withpeople who.
Have heard my voice, but we'venever met, like, you know me

(39:00):
more than I've ha I have no cluewho you people are, but I have
been in your ears for a longtime, and so it's fun to be able
to meet people who have listenedto things that I've done and and
just have a chance to have itother way for a change to
actually have a conversationinstead of a one-way talk.

that makes sense.
'cause that's what I've alwaysenjoyed about.
'cause unfortunately I never gota chance to do the malls.
My first Pokemon event was goingto go fest and then I started
going to regionals and it's justso much fun to be around people
who love Pokemon just as much asyou are.
'cause if you're shelling moneyout for this event, no matter
what it is, you're a diehardPokemon fan to some degree.

a fan.

Yeah, you're a fan.
And it's just such a uniqueexperience.
So I've always loved going to'em, love meeting the people.
The Pokemon's almost kind ofsecond nature to a way, so,

yeah.

yeah.

It's the foundation upon everything else
is being built, all theinteractions, everything.
You have a common language andthen you're branching out from
there.
And I, I always, I've alwaysenjoyed it.

One thing I kind of want to ask you, I know
originally your interested withPokemon started'cause you really
loved RPGs and obviously, youknow, Pokemon is an RPG game to
where you know you got toexplore the world.
I.
What is it about rpg just ingeneral that kind of entices
you, not just even just on aPokemon, but just on a regular
level compared to other types ofgames?

So RPGs are, like an interactive novel.
The good ones are telling you astory.
The good ones are making youthink about the world in new and
interesting ways.
The good ones are telling youthings In a very interactive,
personal way where you are sortof like confronted with somebody

(40:39):
else's ideologies and areworking through both mentally
what they're telling you, butalso like I am making choices
and my choices are affectingthis world, and what does that
mean in this frame of this worldthat I've found myself in?
they are a great way to engage anew audience and tell new

(41:05):
stories to, we as a speciesthrive on stories.
We learn about each otherthrough stories.
We can get other viewpoints andget a sense of what it's like to
experience them stories androle-playing games.
The ones that really do thatwell, really can expand your.

(41:27):
Understanding of the worldaround you and build in ideas
that you can sort of sit withand think, is this something
that I'm accepting of?
Am I resisting this?
Why am I resisting?
what is happening here?
Why do I feel uncomfortable?
Why do I have to make thischoice?
I think you can really learn alot through RPGs that you don't

(41:51):
get with like a platformer.
Like, I don't care why Mario'sjumping a couple of mushrooms,
and then I get to the end.
And of course the princess isn'tthere because the game has to
continue.
Like there's nothing there otherthan a skill check, right?
Like

Mm-hmm.

just a skill check.
That's a dexterity game.
That's me figuring out patterns.
I'm not sort of being confrontedwith much.
In my own story or in my ownlife where role-playing games
and in general really do havethat component of you are
stepping into a role and you arebeing put through a series of

(42:27):
things and it's going to leaveyou with something at the end.

It kind of reminds me of there's some, like
I say, I call it quick card andart that makes you kind of think
a bit, A lot of people preferthe former.
And they just enjoy it.
Like maybe it's just a catchytune or maybe it's just very
shallow.
Like, like you said, once you doit, it's more skills beyond just
like telling a story, tellingkind of a message in a way.
And it's fun for a bit, buteventually that stuff kind of

(42:52):
gets old.
It goes very fast.
But when you talk about storystuff, it challenges your view
in a way to where you have tothink about it a little bit.
You have to really kind of chewon what this video or what the
game or the source the media istelling you.
And it's like, do I, what do Ithink about this?
What is it that I like and whatdo I dislike and what do I agree
and disagree?

(43:13):
And you can keep going back toit.
I think that's what makesPokemon so great is that that's
why we keep going back becauseyou get to kind of relive it and
from a fresher eyes, even as youget older, to where the story
that I may have related to inlet's say gen two or Gen one
doesn't meet up to what Ithought it used to be.
As I grow older and sometimesyou miss things and you point
things out as you mature.

You also, do you have experience?
Like you will look at things andbe like, okay, that's, no they
wouldn't.
Why are they doing that?
That doesn't make, why wouldthey make that choice?

Mm-hmm.

doing, why are they doing?
But I also think one of thestrengths of Pokemon is, you
know, everybody talks about, youknow, they wanna take their
Pokemon team with them'causethey've built memories with
these creatures that, that isthe power of playing games and
storytelling games.
And then it also in particular,is.
Even as basic as I went througha region and got eight badges.

(44:12):
I went through a region and wenteight badges with a team of
friends, and I'm very bonded tothese friends now.
these creatures mean somethingto me and I, I have very strong
memories tied to them, and Iwant to carry them forward with
me.
I want to be able to continue toremember that even if I didn't

(44:33):
care about Aqua and Magmatogether, we went through this
journey we won, and that is ameaningful thing for me.

Hmm.
I just thought of an example,Pokemon Coliseum.

Mm-hmm.

of my favorite games to play, partly'cause it's
very edgy.
I was very grungy as a kidgrowing up to that.
I love that attempt that theywere doing.
I thought it was such a verycool idea.
I still think to this day, it'skind of cool.
You have a organization teamstagnant and you had this one
guy who just kind of breaks awayand just carries the machine.
And I really enjoyed it, youknow, as growing up.

(45:07):
And then I went to play it lateron and I saw kind of the flaws
in some of the game, not thegame.
Well that demon has flaws, butalso the story was telling.
We never found out why he wentaway from Team Staman.
We never found out why he all ofa sudden just makes a good leaf
out.
Just'cause of reasons.
And I mean, I run into the sameissue with, I think it's gen six

(45:28):
with mega evolutions.
It bugs the hell outta me.
People love him to death.
But for me, I'm older when Iexperienced them,

Mm-hmm.

I don't get the mechanics behind them.
I don't get why we want toinflict pain to get this extra
power.
They don't ever really addressthis kind of relationship, if
that makes sense.

interesting because That isn't that much of
a, of a leap because we ashumans that as well.
We will inflict pain onourselves to succeed, and we
will especially do that withpeople that we trust.
They just never make it explicitin the games again, they walk to

(46:04):
the door but never through the

Mm-hmm.

and you are really left to sort of figure
out, well why?
would these creatures do this?
What is it about that bond thatthey are willing to risk pain a
short-term boost of power?

(46:28):
there's a lot to sort of talkabout in there of what does that
say about our relationship?
What does that say about therelationship again, between
these creatures and humans?
It is clearly not a one-waystreet.
It is clearly a two-way street.
But they just won't walk throughthe door, right?
Like they just won't.
We are just sort of left withown feelings about it.

(46:49):
How do we justify it?
Is it justifiable?
I mean, I do think it isjustifiable because it is
clearly shown to be a trustmechanism where they are
deciding to go beyond theirlimits and trust that you will
take care of them be able tosucceed.
Like it is a very important,powerful thing, that they're

(47:11):
able to do.
only some of them can do it andyou know, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah.

Yeah,

Uh, and again, why is, they don't really
explain why is there stonesinvolved other than it has to be
a mechanic.
Like, you just sort of have tobe like, oh, okay, whatever.

unless she,

the power.
Whatever,

unless she got

Fine.

though, ZA is kind of the little special
stepchild of course.

Well, I mean, they break their own rules

Uh,

regularly.
I.

that's fair.
Now we're gonna see Greg.
Mega evolution.

Uh, I mean, I'm not a huge fan of mega
evolutions.
I don't think it's, I, thereason why I like Dynamax better
is'cause it's, everything candynamax whereas only select
things could mega without a goodreason why only effects select
things could mega.
So I just like, I think theyneeded to explore it more and
they just didn't

Yeah.
Maybe we will get lucky with aza.
Eh, I don't have faith, butmaybe you never know.

maybe, I doubt it.
They don't like walking throughdoors.

No, we're just gonna have another door at that
point.

Yeah.
We're have more doors.
This is all doors all the way

Oh my gosh, Greg, one last thing I wanna
talk about is, of course, peoplewho know you from being a, a
part of it's super effective.
And I want to like, talk abouthow did that first happen and
what made you want to become apodcaster when it comes to
Pokemon?

So this is, it's kind of a weird story that
I didn't become a podcasteruntil I was in my forties, and
it was really a situation whereI'd listened to the show for a
while.
I'd listened to, its superperfect for a while.
but I was also listening toother podcasts and one of'em was
the Tuesday Night Games podcast.

(48:47):
And, they were all talking abouthow Steve had never played
Dungeons and Dragons, and I hadalways wanted to do Pokemon in
the Dungeons and Dragons world.

Ooh, yes.

and was sort of at that point an amateur game
designer.
I mean, I still technically am,except people would say since I
sell games, I'm actually aprofessional, but a hobby
career, so I don't get, I'mstill an amateur.
but I was like, I will run youthrough.
This is an idea that I've had.
I've worked out a, a class, I'veworked out how I think it should
work at the game.

(49:20):
cause I was, I've always been aperson that hacks together.
Games like no Roleplaying game.
I don't like 100% of everyroleplaying game.
I always figure out like, well Idon't like how it does this, so
I'm just gonna change it.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so I, like, I figured out how to do this
class.
I figured out how to do it andlike I would happy to be just to
run you all through what I thinka Pokemon d and d world would be
like.
And Steve was like, okay, but ifI'm going to do this, I wanna
record it.
And so that was how I got intopodcasting.
cause we recorded Mythical,which is our d and D Pokemon
podcast.
And we did that for a couple ofyears.

(49:54):
And then, through just generalchanges, people leaving the ISEI
stepped in sort of temporarilyand then for a very long time.

And then it's kind of cool'cause everybody
still remembers you to this day.
What is it like, I'm sorry, yousaid earlier how you go to these
events and people have heardyour voice for so long.
What is it kind of like to beable to see, meet these fans
who've listened to the show?

I mean, I love it.
it's funny because my boss, whoI work for now, I was laid off
from my old job and I waslooking for a new job, and when
I went into the interviewprocess, the recruiter's like,
oh, they're really, reallyexcited to talk to you.
And I'm like, okay, cool.
Because I'm like, great.
They like my resume.
And so I launched interview andthe very first thing Mike, now

(50:41):
boss said to me, he's like, Ijust wanna tell you that I
listened to the show.
And I'm like, oh, you know, waytoo much about me.

Wow.

about entering into this.
Like, you know a lot about me'cause you have listened to my
voice and my dumb stories for along time.
Um, it's very exciting.
I, what I love is hearing theimpact that I've had on people
both positively and sometimesnegatively.
Like sometimes it's hard toknow, like you said, X, Y, and Z
and that was really hurtful andlike, that wasn't a viewpoint

(51:14):
that I had had before.
Thank you for telling me that.
Sharing your story with me, itgives me insight as to a bigger
part of the world.
But a lot of people, it's justreally great to have
conversations with people whofind joy in just listening to me
talk dumb for an hour and getstuff out of that and, it helps
alleviate stress in their day.

(51:35):
I, all of those things are thereasons why I still am in
podcasting in many forms is toprovide entertainment relief to
help get.
Other ideas out there, like Iwon't lie.
It, it is not great.
Sometimes being a gay man afamily podcast, people have a

(51:57):
lot of strong feelings aboutwhether or not I should be
talking about it.

Yeah, I'm sure.

I'm going to let you know this is the life I
live.
It, We are here, there we,there's a lot of us and it's
fine.
you may have questions about itand I don't have a problem
answering those questions.
And if I'm the only person youhave ever heard in reality,
cool.

(52:23):
Now you know one.
And maybe that'll change how youview the world.

And I think that's kinda the fun part about
Pokemon is that it crosses allthose lines that we kind of
borders those walls.
Religion, sexual orientation,gender, whatever you want to
kind of call it, and allows usto kind of connect with Pokemon
and experience each other'sstories in a way, because as you
said, you know, uh, as a gayman, you have a different, uh,
story than the creator.
Me, I'm pretty straight.

(52:48):
Or, maybe a woman has adifferent story than a guy.
And you know, for me, thebiggest thing that I've been
surprised just starting thispodcast.
Is how much women were notallowed to play video games.
It threw me for a loop

Mm-hmm.

and I won't go as much detail, but they always
been told like, oh, they wereeither not allowed because it's
a guy thing or they were toldthat, oh, just'cause you're a
woman, you can't do it.
And I've never experienced thatand that's been probably my
biggest eye-opening experiencedoing this.

It's, it's You'll bump into the weird.
Lines people have that make nosense a lot.
and if I had any hand inbreaking down any of those lines
for people, I'm more than happyto have done it.

Mm-hmm.

If any time you had to sit down and honestly
think about X, Y, Z and I've hada number of people who have come
to me have said, I was veryagainst this.
You made me confront thesethings and sit down and honestly
think, why do I believe thesethings?
What is going on?

(53:55):
'cause this person is clearlywhat I was led to believe.
Like a lot of people were, areshocked Like I was probably the
first person they ever have everheard.
I, my anniversary is Friday.
We've been married, we've beentogether for 32 years.

Oh, happy anniversary.

Thank you.
But for a lot of people, they'relike.
I've never heard of a gayrelationship that was, as long
as my parents are, I'm like,yeah, we exist.
They just, nobody will ever showit to you.

Right.

been together for 32 years now.
and it's funny'cause a lot ofthese people I meet, they're
like, oh, you've been togetherlonger than I've been alive.
I'm like, I am aware.
I am aware of that dynamic.
Thank you.

Yep.
Yep.
For me, this is the last thingI'll touch on this topic.
One time I got offered to comeon a podcast, to talk And I had
just, we were scheduled torecord on a Thursday or Friday.
I had just released an episodethat Wednesday, and it was one
of my guests who were trans,

Mm-hmm.

and they messaged me real quick.
I'm like, you have, they hadsuch a big issue about the
guests being trans.
And I'm like, why does itmatter?
Like, I've had guests who areblack, white, and who are also
gay before, like, why does thismatter?
And they said, oh, I'm gonnahave to take it to, uh, my group

(55:20):
to review it.
And I said, are they gonnalisten to the episode?
I'm like, I can't promiseanything.
And you know, lo and behold theysaid, oh, we wanna withdraw the
offer of having as a guest.
And I'm like, that's probably agood thing.
Like if you can't even sitthrough an episode just to hear
somebody talk about Pokemonwho's trans, I probably don't
even want to be on your show.
Like, I'm just gonna be straightwith you.

(55:41):
And it just, that was just sostartling.
It's just, I'm not even trans.
I'm a straight Hispanic male.
I have no qualms about it.
I'm, but for some reason becauseI had them on as a guest, it
bugged them.
And that's just some of theworld you live in or not the
world you live in.
That's kind of the stuff youkind of miss.

yeah, I mean, I, I mean, I.
Lived it in the eighties, right?

Yeah.

the world we're in now is not the world that I
grew up in.
and you know, those stories willnever surprise me.
That is my lived experience.
That is it has been like tomaneuver through this world.
so I'm like, yep, theyabsolutely uninvited you.
Like that was not a surpriseending thing for me.

(56:30):
Not at all.
Like Yep.
That tracks, that's how peopleare.

Well, Greg, I want to ask this question.
'cause you know, as a gay man,

Mm-hmm.

know, it slowly has become more acceptable to a
degree compared to back then,you know, obviously maybe some
less than others.
You talked about earlier how,you know, you were older when it
came to Pokemon.
how did you kind of stay, Iguess, grounded and positive in
Pokemon, knowing that youweren't fully accepted

I mean, You don't have a choice, but people
sort of think like, don't have achoice.
We don't have a choice to optout of society.
don't have a choice to just belike, I'm not dealing with this
because we can't, I can't walkaway from it.

(57:19):
I can't not deal with it.
And so you just have to becomevery strong in who you are and
be like, that's a you problem.
And one of the things is Idon't, people don't sort of and
I think they get surprised, isit's like

Okay.

its heart, Pokemon is a very queer story.
are leaving your home with afound family who supports you
away from.
Everything that you knew andthese people are carrying you
through to victory.
That is at its heart, one of themost basic queer experiences

(58:02):
because so many of us are kickedout of our homes and we find
people who support us.
We find people who fight with usand we will find ways to achieve
victory despite whatever standsin our way.
And that is such a core heart ofwhat these games are.
And I'm always surprised whenpeople are like shocked at it.

(58:24):
I'm like, that is my experience.
The threat of me being kickedout of my home was very real,
but I found people to supportme.
I found people who, whounderstood me.
I found people who said, Iaccept for who you are, and I
will walk and fight with you.

(58:46):
And that.
At its heart is what makesPokemon brilliant.

And on that note, Greg, thank you for coming
onto the podcast.
Before you go, I want to ask onelast Pokemon question.

Okay.

What would be your dream team, Pokemon or
Dream Pokemon team?
What six Pokemon would youbring?

Okay.
So these are my six.
Uh, I recently just redid myrankings.
I went through the thing online,redid them.
So Resilia is always number one.
Save a i is number two.
Bolton is number three.
Mbbi is number four a, Lola Meacis number five, and Beck's

(59:26):
caliber is number six.

That is such a unique team.
I love it.
Greg, thank you for coming on.
The Poker Ball Turns.
If people want to connect withyou, if they wanna look, check
out anything you're working on,where can they go?
By all means, please plug away.

Um, so you can find all of my games at
leatherman games.
That's where I sell my games.
Uh, and I will hopefully.
have a Pokemon relatedannouncement of my own Pokemon
adjacent announcement, hopefullysoon.
So watch out for that.
Uh, you can find me on Blue Skyat LIANDRA zero three.
You can find me on Instagram atliandra zero three.

(01:00:01):
Those are the easiest way toconnect to me.
Um, I'm around, I'm not thathard to find.
I'm not that hard to find.
If you go to leatherman.games,you'll find connections to all
my things.
Uh, and, and also I think Ifinally erased my Twitter off
that website'cause that place isgarbage.
but uh, yeah, you can find methere.

(01:00:23):
Uh, you can listen to my actualplay podcast also, if you wanna
hear more of me running around,uh, which is called Very Random
Encounters.
then here, I don't know exactlywhen.
I'll be starting a new podcastwith my friend Logan called Game
Mechanics, where we're talkingabout game mechanics.

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TRAINER'S EYE #141 - "Roselia Following the Sweet Scent to Community" ft. Greg Leatherman from Very Random Encounters

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}TRAINER'S EYE #141 - "Roselia Following the Sweet Scent to Community" ft. Greg Leatherman from Very Random Encounters