March 25, 2025 • 79 mins
It all started with an Adderall prescription for ADHD that turned Ian Ale from a C student to an A student. Then came the break-in where his medication was stolen. A neighbor offered something "similar" to help him stay focused in college. That seemingly small decision launched a journey through methamphetamine addiction, federal prison, and ultimately, redemption.
What follows is a raw, unflinching account of how quickly life can spiral out of control. Within months, Ian went from a promising college senior to facing DEA agents at his door. His vivid descriptions of county jail and federal prison pull no punches - from his first fight within minutes of arrival to the hellscape of segregated housing where he spent his first two weeks in custody. All while his girlfriend was pregnant with their daughter.
But this isn't just a cautionary tale. It's a powerful testimony about transformation. While incarcerated, Ian participated in rehabilitation programs, reconnected with his faith, and had the profound realization that he had given his power to substances rather than recognizing his own inner strength.
The turning point came when a church member offered Ian employment as a carpenter upon his release - a profession that has since become his passion. Now married with two daughters, Ian reflects on how his darkest moments led to his greatest blessings, including a deeper appreciation for life's simple freedoms most take for granted.
Whether you're battling addiction, know someone who is, or simply need a reminder of the human capacity for change, this conversation will move you. As Ian says to those still struggling: "You're powerful. You have everything you need already." His journey proves that no matter how far you've fallen, redemption is possible.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right guys, welcome to episode four of Ash
and Iron.
I've got a wonderful guest withme today.
I want you to go ahead and justintroduce yourself.
Tell us a little bit about whoyou are.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Man, thanks for having me.
My name's Ian Ale.
I'm 37 years old, tall, darkand funny looking, and we're
just here to talk.
We're just here to talk.
I grew up in Chattanooga, Ispent my life there, and where
(00:35):
do we go from there?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
So what do you do right now?
What do you do for a living?
What's your life look like dayto day.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Day to day.
So I'm a carpenter, I docontracting, we build houses, we
remodel houses Basically.
If you want it, we'll build it.
Nice Tree houses those are themost fun.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
What You've actually built tree houses.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah, absolutely, how many Three?
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Dude, that's epic.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yeah, they.
How many?
Three Dude?
That's epic.
Yeah, they're fun.
Whatever you want us to build,we try to help you bring your
dream to life, that's great anddo you have a business or you
work for someone else?
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Like, what does that look like?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
So I work with Baldry Home Improvement.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
And then we have a property management um aspect to
the job to uh work for aninvestor out of nashville and
basically just anything.
Yeah, if it, when it comes tobuilding things with your hands
and just getting in there anddoing it, we uh, we try to
tackle it.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
That's cool all right , so um?
Do you have a family?
Are you single?
What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I do have a family.
Okay, I have two daughters.
One's just turned 17 today.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
It's her birthday.
Happy birthday Happy birthday,damia.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I have a seven-year-old, taylor, and my
wife, rachel.
Oh, that's awesome.
And how long have you beenmarried, rachel?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Oh, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
And how long have you been married?
I've been married since 2019,October 13th.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
She'll be happy I remembered that.
You rehearsed it for theepisode?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah, I had to look it up before, but we've been
together since 2013.
So we've been together 10 years.
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
No more than 10 years .
Wow, yeah, it's crazy.
Like the other day I forget whoI was talking to.
I said something like back in2020.
And then I was like, oh, thatwas five years ago.
Yeah, that's wild to thinkabout.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
COVID was five years ago.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Isn't that crazy.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
So where does time go ?
Well, cool.
So, man, I'm super excited tohear your story, like to
actually get to talk to you.
For those you listening rightnow, we've literally hung out.
We've had the most chaoticmorning ever and the city showed
up at my house, told me ourelectric would be out for four
hours.
So we drove to Nashville, seteverything up here at the office
(02:53):
in Nashville and then I forgotthe power cord at my house.
So my lovely wife drove thepower cord to us and we just now
got started.
So I've been hanging out withIan all morning and avoiding any
serious conversations, so likewe've just been talking about
music and television a littlebit here and there and just like
random stuff.
And I'm genuinely excited tolike, hear your story and like,
(03:15):
and why you?
Yeah, like why you're on Ashand Iron, and I say it that way
because everybody who'snominated it's because the
person that's nominating themknows a little bit already,
right?
So I'm excited that Michaelcame on here and nominated you.
(03:36):
He's become a great friend.
I really love that guy and hiswife.
They're great people, and sothat makes me even more excited
to sit in front of you andhonored that you would be
willing to come on the podcast.
So thank you for being on.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
It's a privilege, absolutely.
So, all right, let's do this.
(03:56):
I would love to hear your storylike wherever you'd like to
start.
You can start as young as you'dlike, start recent and work
backwards, quentin Tarantinostyle.
However you want to do it.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Let's just jump in Sure.
This is the hardest part ofanything is getting started.
Let's see, when I was in highschool I was prescribed Adderall
Okay, and I was on that forseveral years and it did what it
was supposed to my grades.
(04:31):
I went from a C student to an Astudent, got involved in
activities after school, beforeschool.
It really changed my life.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
So you had ADHD, adhd , yeah, okay.
Yeah, I struggle with that too.
What was it before you gotprescribed the Adderall, before
you were on it?
Talk to me through like what,because, as someone who also has
ADHD and I've actually nevertaken anything for it what is it
like, going from the brain andmindset that you had as a person
(05:03):
with ADHD?
And then what did the medicinemake you feel like?
Or what did it do?
Like how does that, what didthat look like?
All right.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
So say, you're in a classroom, you're learning some
science.
If there's a window in thatclassroom, that's where I'm
looking, because there might bea butterfly outside of that
window and I might be thinkingabout what the butterfly is
thinking about.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Anything but what.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
I'm supposed to be focusing on.
There could be three dots up onthe ceiling that I think look
like a happy face or something,Just couldn't focus on anything.
And then, when they diagnosedme with ADHD, they put me on
Adderall and man, I just lovedschool after that.
(05:49):
I loved learning.
It allowed me to get into whatI was doing and it worked.
It did exactly what it wassupposed to do.
So fast forward I start.
I graduated, I went to collegeat UTC and did well there for
(06:09):
several years and I guess thebeginning of this I said all
that to parlay into how my lifewent from being well on track to
hitting rock bottom.
So I had a break-in at my houseand someone stole some goods
(06:33):
and they stole my prescription,Adderall.
And I had a neighbor at thetime who I told him what was
going on.
The police had came and he waslike man, I might be able to
help you out.
I've got this other thing.
It's kind of like Adderall, butI can give you some if you want
(06:55):
.
I was like sure I didn't knowat the time.
I'd heard what methamphetaminewas.
I'd heard what methamphetaminewas, but I'd never even I, just
I was like man.
That's a hard drug, but I wasdesperate and young and stupid
(07:16):
so I tried it and it wasn'tanything like Adderall.
Okay, it made a mountain out ofa molehill, for a terrible
analogy there.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
So I kept.
I used the meth.
I tried to.
There's no responsible way touse meth Absolutely, but I would
try to measure it out and tryto make a dose that was
comparable to the adderall, andI did that for six months,
stayed in college and but it'snot sustainable.
(07:59):
I really fell into a terribleaddiction with methamphetamine
because it wasn't just aboutaccomplishing things at that
point, it was about getting high.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So let me not to interrupt your story at all,
because I don't want to lose anyof that.
It's incredible.
I can't wait to hear where thisgoes.
But when you were dosing outyou know the methamphetamines
into like what you call like acomparable dose to Adderall,
like was there any sort ofadditional focus or anything
(08:37):
from that that you were like,okay, yeah, this is kind of
helping me.
Or was it just like, okay, thisisn't anything like adderall at
all, but I like the way itmakes me feel.
So I'm gonna keep taking itlike.
What was that mindset?
If you don't mind me asking umwell, there was.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
There was a comparable dose, um, because
they're both amphetamines, um,and I guess the transition
started happening when, justlike with anything, with coffee,
with any drug, any substance,you start building a tolerance
(09:15):
to it.
So I started doing more andAdderall was covered by
insurance, meth was not.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Right, right, yeah, yeah, I can imagine that being a
problem.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
And as a poor college student, I didn't have money
for it.
Um, so as my tolerance went up,my use went up and my ability
to pay for it went down.
So what I would do was, youknow, just buy a little bit, and
(09:44):
if my friends wanted some, Iwould give them a little bit,
and they would give me a littlebit.
And if my friends wanted some,I would give them a little bit,
they would give me a little bitof money.
I would pay for it.
Like I said, it worked forabout six months.
This was senior year in college.
At this point I was gettingready for graduation and I
(10:07):
applied and they told me that Icouldn't graduate because I'd
missed a freshman level intro tocomputing class.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Ah what.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yeah, and I was like I've gone all the way through
college.
I think I can do the computing.
But the rebel in me just said,okay, screw this, I'm done.
So I left college and let'sjust fast forward.
Six months later, the DEA isknocking on my door.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Okay, hold on.
Nope, we can't fast forward sixmonths.
How did that happen?
That seems like it escalatedquickly.
It did so what?
Okay, let me back up here.
You're in college.
You almost hit the finish line.
A discrepancy in the systemessentially kept you from
(10:58):
graduating and you're just likethat's BS.
I ain't doing that, so walk methrough your life there.
You're no longer a student, I'massuming, right, you're just
living life, yeah, doing meth,yeah.
And so walk me through thatseason, because that had to have
been a hard thing.
(11:19):
You've spent your whole careerin college working for that
moment, and then it's gone.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
It was quite a transition.
You know, I grew up in awonderful family.
My parents stayed together,they provided for me, they
helped me out when I needed help.
It was a Christian household,you know.
It was a Christian household,you know, and there was all this
(11:47):
shame that I felt for what Iwas doing behind the scenes,
because I felt like I was livingtwo separate lives.
I was two separate people.
After I dropped out man, Idon't even know how to parlay
(12:11):
into the next six months.
They were dark.
I saw things while I was usingpeople that I had never thought
I'd be around.
It wasn't anything for someoneto show up to your house in a
(12:31):
stolen car, or I mean, the firsttime I saw someone use a needle
was in my own house, and that'sa scary thing to see.
It's stuff you see on TV.
You know, yeah, that you grow upand you're like, especially
when you're doing well, you'relike I'll never be around any of
that stuff.
And then it's just one smallyes, and then another yes, and
(12:57):
then okay, well, I'll do this.
And the next thing you knowyou're living in a hotel.
It just happens so quick, yourun out of money and you start.
What I did was start brokeringdeals.
(13:17):
So this is all leading up tothe DEA.
I had a friend who was not afriend at all, but he called me
up and said hey, can you get metwo ounces of meth?
And I was like, well, I don'tkeep that, but I can call the
(13:41):
person.
So I did, and the guy will callhim confidential informant.
One which I found out he waslater came and picked me up,
took me to do the by, bought thestuff from the guy and that was
the first count.
That started the indictmentthat.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
I had no idea, so they were tracking you at that
point.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah, well, they were tracking the guy.
They were investigating the guythat I bought my stuff from.
Okay, Got it.
So we would, rachel and I, mywife, we would rent an apartment
or a house for two months, andI don't even know how they would
(14:29):
let us rent these places, butsomehow they did.
And then two months later, whenwe didn't pay rent, we'd have
to go somewhere else.
Well, on our third house I geta knock on the door and that's
when the DEA showed up and theywere like hey, do you know this
person?
(14:49):
And I was like yeah.
And they were like, well, weknow you and we have you, Like
it's over.
So they asked me to come in.
They interviewed me that daydown there in Chattanooga and,
man, they told me things aboutmy life that I didn't even
remember.
Wow yeah, they had really beenlooking for these other two guys
(15:12):
that were in the conspiracy andthat's what I was eventually
charged with.
It was a conspiracy todistribute methamphetamine, and
that you grow up you're like, oh, I'll never go to federal
prison.
But, man, let me just tell youright now, it's so easy, it's so
(15:34):
easy to fall into it.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
You know what, what really stands out about, about
where, what your story so far,with what you've shared, is like
.
I think people in general, wemake this assumption that it'll
never, that could never happento me, because I've got a good
family, I've got, you know, x, y, z, and it really just goes to
(15:56):
show you like it can, like itcan happen.
You know what I mean, and thatthe variable isn't whether your
parents are together or not.
Happen.
You know what I mean and thatthe variable isn't whether your
parents are together or not.
You know, the variable isn'twhether you go to college or not
.
And I think that it's this issuch an important story for
people to hear Um, especiallysome of the younger guys and
girls, if they're listeningbecause it's like just because
(16:19):
you've got your life togetherdoesn't mean it can't, it can't
happen to you, you know.
So, all right, let me walk backthrough this.
So they show up, they tell youthey've got you, they charge you
with conspiracy to distribute,or how did you phrase that?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
It was a conspiracy to distribute meth.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Okay, and so they hit you with that.
What happened after that?
Speaker 2 (16:49):
you with that?
What?
What happened after that?
Um, so when they approached metheir goal at the time because
was to turn me, to turn me intoa ci for them to work, for them
to get more people they told methat I was a target, I was the
perfect hit.
Perfect hit because I was thiswhite guy that didn't look like
a meth head, that could carryhimself in school and I could go
(17:13):
places that they wanted me togo.
So I had never really had anyencounters very few with law
enforcement before that time hadany encounters very few with
law enforcement before that time.
And so on the first interview Iwas like, yeah, okay, I'll do
that.
And then I ghosted him BecauseI kind of got to thinking about
(17:45):
like, who's scarier, the DEA orthe people that I have?
somehow got myself involved with.
So I ghosted them, and youcan't ghost them for long.
They eventually find me, I went.
They eventually find me, I went.
So during this time, after theyfirst came, I moved back in
(18:11):
with my parents because I wasessentially homeless.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Was that in Chattanooga?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
It was in Chattanooga .
Yeah, we wore out our welcomein every place that we tried to
rent, out of money, out of hope,and my parents let me and my
(18:37):
wife well, she wasn't my wife atthe time, but they let us both
move in, and we started to tryto get our lives together, and
it's a hard process.
Part of that process, though,was getting my license changed
to my new legal address, andthat's what triggered the
(18:58):
marshals to find where I was.
Ah man, so I was out.
I'd gotten a job at a reallycool place in Chattanooga, and I
get a call from my dad one day,and he's like hey, you want to
tell me why the marshals arehere looking for you?
Because they had no idea I was.
(19:19):
I didn't tell him about myencounter with the DEA.
I didn't tell him about myencounter with the DEA, so I
knew I was hit.
So I called him and arranged toturn myself in and I thought
(19:41):
they're going to let me get awaywith this, I'm not going to
have to do any time or go downthat dark road.
But it wasn't the case.
So when I met with them, theyput me in handcuffs and took me
to Silverdale, which at thatpoint was a private prison there
(20:05):
in Chattanooga.
As soon as I get there, I'mbooked and they put me in the
federal pod.
Man, let me just tell you, whenyou first go into a situation
like that, first go into jail.
(20:27):
It's, I mean, it's just you're,you're, you're on your toes,
your eyes are open, you don'tknow what to expect because you
know.
The only thing I knew aboutjail was I thought people got
raped and sure like violence.
And and sure enough it was.
There was a lot of violence,but within the within, for the
(20:47):
first 10 minutes.
Um, my co-conspirator happenedto be in the same pod oh my lord
yeah, and they.
They were under the assumptionthat I was the reason they were
in there.
Um, so, never been in a fightin my life, first 10 minutes in
(21:09):
jail.
He comes out of the woodworkand starts swinging um, I saw,
you know.
What do you do?
Yeah, you got to fight back.
You have to.
Um, what?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
do, you do yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
You got to fight back , you have to.
So my first 10 minutes in jailwent like that, and my next 10
minutes I'm already in the shoe.
The segregated housing unit.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Okay, so I'm going to back you up a little bit and
then we're going to get back.
There's a lot of gaps and we'regoing to get back into this
spot.
When your dad I'm rewindingback a little bit, so when your
dad is like, hey, why are themarshals here?
And I can't imagine for you,right, you grew up in a
(21:53):
Christian household your dad'snow like what is going on?
Were you the one to tell yourdad like this is what I've been
into, or did he find out?
What was that like?
Speaker 2 (22:06):
He knew that I had been struggling with something.
He just didn't know what.
And you know that feeling whenyour first love breaks up with
you.
Mm-hmm your first love breaksup with you, where it just feels
(22:27):
like your heart drops to yourtoes and you're hollow inside.
Yeah, that's what it felt like.
I just felt all the shame of myexistence come crashing down
and it just it hurt.
It hurt.
I just I was like this iswhat's going on, like dad, I'm
(22:51):
in trouble and it hurt because Iknew it hurt him.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
And what do you do from that point?
You know one of the reasons Iever got into?
(23:24):
Yeah, it helped me accomplishthe things that you know my
brain was not trying toaccomplish on its own, but what
it did psychologically was Igave all my power, or attributed
all my power, to the drug I wasusing, and not to myself.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
That's powerful.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
And it just sucked me in.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
When did you have that realization?
Was that later in life, or wasthat like sort of in prison?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
It was when I was incarcerated.
There's plenty of time to think, especially when you spend your
first two weeks in jail ever inthe shoe, in the shoe, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
That's not good, okay , so I'm going to fast forward
just a little bit, not all theway back to where we were.
You get brought in, they openup the cell.
Is the other guy in therealready or were you in there
first?
Speaker 2 (24:24):
He was already in there.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
So when you looked in there and you saw that it was
him, did you have that feelingof like, oh, this is not good,
or did you think maybe he'sgoing to be cool?
Speaker 2 (24:34):
No, you knew it was going to be bad.
It looked like a bull coming togore me.
I knew it was bad to be bad.
I mean it looked like a bullcoming to gore me.
I knew it was bad right off therip.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
So I mean yeah, okay, all right.
And so you get into thataltercation and then they I'm
assuming they assume you're theproblem they put you in the shoe
For everybody listening.
Can you describe what that'slike, or or is that something
you're not allowed to the shoe?
Yeah, I don't know how.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
I don't know how that works oh man, I'll tell you
anything you want to hear okay,um so the shoe was the most
disgusting place I've ever beenin my life.
They keep the lights on 24 hoursa day.
It's freezing cold in there.
No one ever sleeps, um, soeveryone's yelling all the time.
There's no way to get any kindof rest.
The first night I was there,someone in the tier above me
(25:33):
broke the plumbing of theirlittle toilet sink combo.
We called them thechromosoccies because they were
just these silver, nasty littletoilet things.
You get your drinking water andright like 16 inches above
where you pee.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
That's gross.
Yeah, really gross.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Well, what was even grosser is when they popped that
plumbing line it just flooded.
So I was in the bottom tier andthen you had to step down into
where the bed was.
So, by you know, in the nextcouple hours there was six
inches of water in the bottom ofthe cell and I couldn't tell
(26:16):
you when the last time it wasclean, because I'm seeing like
slime, no telling what kind ofslime it was you know what I
mean, yeah.
Hair from thousands of years youknow, yeah, thousands of years
of hair just floating around.
It stinks, dude.
But I'm just my first six hoursin any kind of jail.
(26:45):
I'm like where the hell am I?
What have I gotten myself into?
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yeah, and for all you know, this was an anomaly.
That's never, ever happenedever.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
But from your perspective, it's like this is
what I get to live in for thenext.
Yeah, okay, uh, so the waterstayed in there for 24 hours and
they wouldn't let people comein to clean it because it's the
segregated housing.
Uh, they gave me a squeegee atone point and said here you can
try to squeegee out your cell.
The guy that I was in therewith that's a whole other story.
He wouldn't say any words, buthe would just kind of stand at
the front of the cell with hishands down his pants, making
(27:35):
noises.
It was a hell, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
That doesn't sound like a real life moment.
That sounds like a movie script.
It felt like a movie script.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Like all, my worst nightmares about jail were
coming true.
Couldn't use the phone and thiswas it happened on December
21st 2016.
That's when I went into jail,and I didn't know it at the time
, but I wasn't going to come outfor two years, so yeah, In that
(28:16):
moment did you have like a presort of conceived idea of like
how long you might be in therefor?
Absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
So that was probably even more miserable, wasn't it?
Because, not knowing.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
I felt dead.
I felt or I wanted to die.
I just wondered where mygirlfriend Rachel was and
wondered what my family wasthinking, because they couldn't
get a hold of me either.
They tried to call Silverdaleand because I was in segregated
(28:51):
housing, they couldn't tell themwhere I was.
They were like, yeah, he's here, but we can't tell you anything
else.
So it was tough for them too.
And to put the icing on thecake here, in the six months
leading up to it, when me andRachel were trying to escape
(29:15):
that lifestyle, she got pregnant.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Oh my gosh, and did you know that then?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yeah, I did.
I found out a week before I wasarrested.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
That hits different yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
I mean my heart's pumping right now just thinking
about it.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, okay, so you're in there.
Did they tell you how long youwere going to be in the shoe?
For no, all right.
So there's a lot of unknownshere, right, and it's not just
about your environment.
There's a lot of unknowns ofyour outside life as well.
Like what are my parentsthinking?
What is Rachel thinking?
(29:57):
I've got a kid?
Like, how long am I going to bein here?
Speaker 2 (30:00):
How's my dog?
Yeah, how's my dog.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Yeah, how's my dog?
You didn't tell me you had adog?
Yeah, but all right.
So what's next?
What happens after that?
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Okay.
So they had to separate theco-defendants because one of
them was in one pod, the otherwas in another pod.
So I had to be taken to BradleyCounty Jail in Cleveland just
to be away from them while theprocess of trials and everything
(30:35):
else was going on.
So they take me up to BradleyCounty and they always transfer
you at crazy times too.
Then you have to sit in intakeforever.
Jail is so cold it is freezingin there all the time.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Do you think all of that's intentional, like the
time that they transfer?
Speaker 2 (30:58):
you.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
It's just to keep you guessing.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yeah, it is, and the temperature is definitely
intentional too.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
keeps you chill yeah, like, like for real.
Yeah, I, I worked at apsychiatric hospital.
We used to keep it ac crankedin there too.
It kept people calm.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yeah, yeah so bradley , county, um, I get up there, I
still don't know the process andlike how this is going to go,
and they it's better for becauseI'm not in the shoe.
(31:35):
They take me to court in acouple days.
The arraignment, your firstcourt date, where you just tell
them I plead guilty, not guilty.
They'll only let you plead notguilty at that time and then you
just go back to county jailsand just hang out and it's as
(32:00):
bad as you think it is.
There's so much because countyjails are just catch-alls.
I was sleeping, so the rooms arelike a glorified bathroom.
It is your bathroom and whereyou sleep they're maybe 80
square feet and they had there'sa bunk bed and then they would
(32:24):
have two people on the floor sowe would be four people deep in
these rooms.
And you know I don't want to bein the bathroom when anyone's
pooping, but when there's fourmen in a cell all having to use
the bathroom trying to get along, it gets cramped.
One of my cellmates was thereone week.
(32:49):
He got released and he was backthe next.
His little pad was right nextto mine and he was like yeah,
man, I just, uh, stabbed mygirlfriend to death.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
I'm like where am I?
Yeah, it's like why, why am Ihere with you?
Like that don't even seemproportionate to the crime,
right um?
Speaker 2 (33:16):
it's just there's so much violence, uh, in the county
jails, like I was watching apoker game.
I never got into any of thepoker games.
People like to bet.
People get in trouble when theylose money and start owing
money.
There's a poker game going onand you can't.
The food in jail sucks, period,but you get, you can have,
(33:38):
commissary, where, uh, you canget some ramen noodles or
something.
You'll pay like $1.50 for onepack of ramen too.
We didn't have a microwave.
We had a hot pot where it'lljust boil the water for you.
Well, this guy owed someonesome money and one of the
(33:58):
inmates boiled shaving cream,made this little concoction of
it in the hot pot, came upbehind the guy and threw it on
his face.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
My gosh.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
And it was like napalm.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
So he's trying to wipe it off.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
He's just spreading this hot stuff all over him, he
tried to wipe it off and hewiped the skin right off the
side of his face.
Oh my gosh, all this to justcreate the picture of this
hellscape that county jails are,or incarceration.
(34:38):
It's not supposed to be nicefor sure.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
I get that.
So what's going through yourmind?
Obviously, there's moments ofrealization, right, like okay, I
hurt my family, I've got a kidon the way, things have got to
change.
But there's a lot ofuncertainty, so that makes
things rough.
It's hard to come up with agame plan when there's a lot of
(35:01):
uncertainty but then, at thesame time, you're in an
environment where you're lookingaround and there's just a lot
of violence, a lot of filth, alot of chaos.
For lack of better words, itsounds like Talk me through.
What do you do in that?
What do you do with all thatinformation?
What?
Speaker 2 (35:22):
do you do with all that information?
So basically, you're in countyjust during the process of
either a trial or a pleading outand there's not really much you
can do to plan in a county jailbecause you don't know what's
(35:43):
happening next.
You're in there with otherfederal inmates or soon-to-be
federal inmates.
The feds have like a 98%conviction rate.
Basically, if they've told youthey got you, they got you, and
if you go to trial you're goingto get like four times the
(36:05):
amount of time as you would.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
I see, yeah, you're prolonging that situation.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yes, you're staying in county jail longer, you're
prolonging your eventualincarceration.
So there really wasn't much Icould do.
But I had money on the books,thankfully, to make the phone
calls to check in with Rachel,see how the pregnancy was going.
(36:32):
You do have a lot of time tojust ponder, just to think about
how you got there, where youwant to go.
There's just not much you cando to start acting on it.
So what I did?
I didn't have a criminalhistory which allowed me to get
(36:55):
this thing called a safety valvewhich lowered my eventual
sentence.
Excuse me.
So when it was all said anddone, after we go to court, I
get sentenced to a B1A.
It's a Class A felony.
It's the worst you can get.
(37:16):
It's the same charge class thatthey give human traffickers and
I was like for something thatweighs less than a tube of
toothpaste.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Do you feel like they were trying to set an example
somehow, or do you feel likethat was accurate for the charge
?
Speaker 2 (37:38):
In what way?
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Well, for example, you kind of compared it to
traffickers, so it's like, inone way, it almost sounds like
this doesn't even seem like itfits the crime, and so it makes
me think.
Do you think they were justtrying to make an example out of
you by giving you a harder?
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Yeah, I don't think they were trying to make an
example out of me.
The guidelines are pretty clearcut this amount of this.
Pretty clear.
Cut this amount of thissubstance gets you this amount
of time, mitigated by thecriminal history and sure, all
that.
Um, and let me, let me firstsay this I take full
(38:19):
responsibility for everythingthat I did.
Sure, the problem was me.
I was the reason I was in there.
No blame on anyone else butmyself.
But I had a hard timereconciling the fact that it was
never even mine, like I justbrokered and facilitated things,
(38:41):
but that's part of it.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
that checked off the list, wow, yeah so you hear this
charge right what goes throughyour mind.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
I'm screwed.
I'm screwed.
I'm not going to get to see mykid be born, I'm not going to
get to see her grow up.
I'm not gonna be able toprovide, uh, as a father.
Um, I just, I just saw my hopesand dreams disappear.
(39:23):
It's a hopeless feeling for along time, but anyways.
So I go to sentencing.
They give me 41 months, whichwas great, and that was more
than I, or less than I couldhave hoped for.
(39:45):
Yeah, yeah, because the uh, thecharge itself carries mandatory
minimum 10 to life and I waslike 10 years, 10 years in
prison, good, like, how do yougo from like not ever being in
trouble to getting a 10-yearsentence?
Speaker 1 (40:07):
um, that's minimum it's a mandatory.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
You know what I mean like 10 to life.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
10 is like best possible case scenario which is
hard to fathom yeah, um was itthe uh, would you call it the
lever safety valve?
Safety valve, that's it.
Was that what got it reduceddown to the 40, whatever it was.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Yeah.
So if you the way they word itis if you plead quick and early
accept responsibility and for methat just meant saying yes, I
did what's on this paper,regardless if it was true or not
If you plead quick and earlyaccept responsibility and you
(40:48):
have no criminal history, itlets you get the safety valve
which breaks the mandatoryminimum and brings your criminal
history or your sentencingguidelines down.
So I got 41 months and it wasall kind of whirlwind.
After that, like.
I went back to Bradley Countyand I think it was within a week
(41:12):
the marshals came and picked meup in the middle of the night
again, took us on a bus down toAtlanta where we were classified
and then sent on our way towhere everyone's camp or FCI
their security classificationwas and thankfully, with no
(41:35):
criminal history, they sent meto a camp.
They're called satellite camps.
They're they're really justthere to serve the higher
security prisons.
A lot of them don't even havefences on them, but it's still
prison, sure.
So yeah, I went from hopes anddreams child on the way to
(42:01):
federal prison and this allhappened like within 12 to 16
months.
It happens very quickly.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
All right, so I'm going to rewind again just a
little bit so you're able tohave calls.
You find out that this is yoursentencing.
This is what's going down.
Find out that this is yoursentencing.
This is where what, what'sgoing down.
Did you?
Did you get to talk to rachelafter that to like explain to
her, like this is how longthey're telling me I'm going to
be in for I'm going to betransferred to another facility,
(42:32):
like all of that?
And then what, what was thatlike?
And then how did she handle allthat?
And like what did?
What was that like?
She?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
uh, you know she handled it like a boss.
Uh, she was really hoping thatI would just get out, but that
was a pipe dream.
Um man, she really stepped up.
She, even she went to the.
She did so much for me.
Um, she, she went to theprosecutor and offered to to
(43:06):
turn people to inform on people,just to help me get a lighter
sentence.
I like Rachel as a pregnantwoman.
I don't know.
I love Rachel.
Yeah, that's cool man.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
I hope I get to meet her at some point.
That's really cool.
All right, so she's handlingthis like a boss.
She's like ride or die.
I'm in this for the long haul,I ain't going nowhere, and so
that's got to feel reassuring,right.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
So you get transferred to the camp.
Are you allowed to say wherethe camp was and what that
experience was like?
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Yeah, the camp was and what that experience was
like.
Yeah, the camp was in Edgefield, south Carolina, right outside
of Augusta, okay, and it was hot, it was very hot down there.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
What time of year was that?
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Well, I got to spend several seasons there.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
I guess I didn't think about that before I said
it.
Yeah, I don't remember exactlywhen I was transferred down
there, I guess.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
I didn't think about that before I said it.
Yeah, I don't remember exactlywhen I was transferred down
there.
I think it was May or so.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Okay, so it was about to get hot.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
Yeah, it was, if it wasn't already.
Oh man, it stayed hot downthere and the camp was great.
Prison is, and the camp wasgreat, prison is.
You're still incarcerated.
But it's so much different thanthe county jails Because, like
I said, the county jails arecatch-alls.
There's people that come and go, there's murderers.
(44:41):
At the camps no one had seriousviolent charges.
Everyone had under 10 years todo.
In the county jails it's allbroken down by race.
Just like in the highersecurities you're really
expected to hang out with whitepeople if you're white or black
(45:03):
people if you're black.
But in the camps everyone knewthey were short-timing, so they
knew they were getting out.
They had an out date.
They didn't want to go back toa higher security prison.
There was a lot of programmingthat you could do and a program
(45:24):
called RDAP, which I did,residential Drug Abuse Treatment
, which I did.
Residential drug abusetreatment.
Just there was a lot ofopportunity for development and
planning in the camps.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
I feel like the camp.
Was that a place where youstarted to feel like hope was
being restored?
I was, Because I kind of getthat vibe because of the way you
kind of described the countyjail and the experiences there
and now the verbiage that you'reusing to describe this place,
it almost feels like you startedto get some hope restored.
Did they allow visitors?
They did.
What was that like?
Speaker 2 (46:05):
And my wonderful wife and mom came down every month
to see me.
Wow, every month they allowedin-person visits so we didn't
have to do it on a phone call.
It's actually where I got tosee my daughter for the first
(46:27):
time, wow got to see my daughterfor the first time.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Wow, did you get to see your wife while she was
still pregnant there, or did shenot get to come visit until
after your daughter was born,not till after?
Speaker 2 (46:41):
my daughter was born.
The crazy part actually was soI remember when I was
transferred now it was in AugustI got the call or I got the
notification that I was beingtransferred and they took me
down to the little holding roomand I called Rachel.
I was like, hey, I'm gettingmoved.
And she was like, well, I'mhaving this baby, like tomorrow
(47:05):
they're inducing me.
So during the wholeclassification process when we
went down to Atlanta, there wasa period of like four or five
days where I knew she had goneto the hospital and was induced
and had the kid and I just can'tget all over.
So I get down to the camp andsomeone else that had a phone
(47:31):
set up had to call her for meand that's when I found out that
it went fine healthy weight,beautiful baby girl like a giant
deep breath of relief, likeokay, everything's good.
I think I just broke down.
I mean, I broke down a ton oftimes rightfully so, right, yeah
, all right.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
so I want to hear the story of when you get to meet
your daughter for the first time.
After having gone through allof that, I want to hear what
that experience was like.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Surreal.
She had my dad's hands and mydad had actually just died in
October, right before I wasarrested.
Oh man, I'm sorry, brother.
Yeah, so I mean, and my momactually got to cut the, cut the
(48:29):
cord, so it was the best of ahorrible situation.
Yeah, it was, um, I got to holdher.
Smell her.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
Bro, dude, I saw that .
Look, don't dude, for anybodyout there that's got a kid.
They know, they know what youmean.
Like dude, smelling your kidswhen they're born like just
little babies, like even theirbreath smells so good.
It's like I don't even know.
And then they get older and thenI don't know what happens, but
(49:02):
it's like, yeah, there'ssomething special about that and
what's awesome is there's likealmost like this underlying
analogy of redemption, whereyour dad passes and then your
daughter's got his hands and youweren't there, but your mom was
there, you know, and it's likethere's something very special
(49:23):
about all of that and I don'teven know what it is Like.
I can't like pinpoint it and belike dude, this is the special
thing, you know.
But it's like it's a metaphor,almost you know what it is Like.
I can't like pinpoint it and belike dude, this is the special
thing.
But it's like it's a metaphor,almost you know what I mean and
it's a really cool thing.
All right, so you meet yourdaughter, You're holding her,
you're breaking down, like it'sa very emotional thing.
How's Rachel holding up?
Like how's all this going?
Speaker 2 (49:57):
so, um, she moved back in with her parents, um for
the interim during this wholeprocess and started working with
her dad.
Um and her family had a tirestore, or has had a tire store,
and he started training her totake that over, um, which I
don't think would have happenedhad I not gone away.
(50:20):
You know a lot of horriblethings happen, saw a lot of
crazy things, but god happened.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
Saw a lot of crazy things, but god puts us in
places that he knows we canovercome.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
Oh, absolutely.
Sometimes he puts us therebecause he wants to see us
overcome.
Um, and yeah, um, she, she hada very strained relationship
with her parents up until thetime when she moved back in.
So that let her rekindle thisrelationship, build that trust,
(51:02):
that family back up.
Um, it allowed me to spendquite some time thinking about
what freedom actually is.
Time is the only commodity thatwe can't ever get anything back
.
Once it's spent, it's gone.
(51:23):
And I remember actually layingin the shoe when I first got
there, just thinking about howmuch I wanted to be out and how
much I wanted to take the trashout.
It's the little things.
I want to check the mail, Iwant to sweep the driveway.
It's not these huge life eventslike Six Flags, it's the small
(51:50):
things.
That's freedom.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
Like, yeah, it's like I want to go cut my grass.
Yeah, With my headphones on.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
Yeah, I want to work.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
I want to have a bonfire?
Speaker 1 (52:01):
Yes, dude, I would miss bonfires so much.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
They actually let at the camp.
They uh people have thesebonfires in the tp.
Well, it wasn't a bonfire inthe tp, but they had this.
I know what you meant the uh,the indian population could go
in there and do what they did,yeah, so that was every week,
(52:28):
and I brought it up because youcould smell it throughout the
whole compound it smelled likefreedom.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
I bet it did so.
You're at the camp.
For how long?
What's the time period you'rethere?
Speaker 2 (52:40):
I'm at the camp for 16 months, I think so you were
in county for a while.
Yeah about 6, 7, 8, 16 months.
I think, Okay, yeah, so youwere in county for a while.
Yeah, about six, seven, eightmonths yeah that's crazy.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
Okay, so all right.
So you get to camp, you'rethere.
Do you have any like definingmoments there that you're like,
when you look back on it, you'relike man, that moment changed
my life or that thing I learnedor that program I was in.
Like was there a person there,a teacher, like another person
that was doing time there withyou, like was there things like
(53:17):
that?
Like that you feel like youknow, looking back on it, you're
like, wow, that was pivotal tolike where I am now.
You know.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
So part of the worry about asyou get closer to your out date
is I'm going to be a convictedfelon now and you know how am I
going to.
I went from about to graduatecollege and start a career to
(53:52):
convicted felon, spending twoyears in prison.
Lickety, split man real quick.
So I was like, what am I goingto do?
And a man at my church, davidMartin, got a hold of my mom
because he was aware of what wasgoing on.
(54:14):
Everyone at the church was andhe was like listen, I've got him
.
When he comes out, he's got ajob.
So that man that took so muchpressure off.
I was like, okay, I'm, I'm, I'mgonna, I'm gonna be okay, we're
gonna make it work.
Um, so when I get out, and wedid the halfway house for four
(54:37):
months or whatever, and, uh, Istart working for David Martin
as a carpenter.
Um, and man, I loved it.
I just working with my handswas it's the best.
You get to be outside, you getto build things, you get to use
(54:59):
saws.
I just it was a pleasure.
So I worked with him for thatwas the defining moment that
kind of changed the trajectoryof where I was going Him
offering that olive branch whileI was still in there wondering
what branch I could walk on.
(55:20):
So I worked with him forseveral years, ended up really
loving it with him for severalyears, ended up really loving it
.
Uh did well and uh moved toanother company, uh, two years
(55:45):
later with a little betteropportunity and yeah, I mean,
the rest is kind of history, man.
Uh, I still work with that sameguy, mike baldry Baldry.
He kind of took me under hiswing and showed me how to be a
leader, showed me how tocontract, helped me, showed me
how to handle subs and just be agood person, subs and you know,
(56:13):
just just be a good person.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
So that was probably the defining moment there.
So I, I, what I love is thatthere there is a there is a
heavy undertone of forgivenessand redemption that goes through
this entire story, you know allthe way through.
And it's what was his name,david?
(56:38):
What was David's name?
David Martin.
David Martin, it's like thefact that he was like I got you,
like when you get out, likeI've got a job for you, like
there was no condemnation, therewas no judgment.
It was like people makemistakes.
I got you, like you're going toyou, like I've got a job for
you, like there was nocondemnation, there was no
judgment.
It was like people makemistakes.
I got you like you're gonna,you're gonna have a job, and so
getting out and working forsomeone like that, I'm assuming,
especially after experiencing,you know, your time time in jail
(57:03):
and in office, also at the campand whatnot it's like getting
out and having a job probablyfelt like the best thing on the
planet.
Speaker 2 (57:11):
It did it, did it, just took such a load off, and
then having a job that I reallyenjoyed was the biggest part of
it.
Speaker 1 (57:24):
Does David still do that kind of stuff he does?
Speaker 2 (57:27):
He does, he does.
Actually, the funny part aboutit was like he loaned me out to
Baldry for a job that we weredoing together with him and then
Baldry lost a guy and I waslike listen, I can be that guy,
Like we can make this work.
(57:47):
I can be that guy, we can makethis work.
And there's just such a freedomto working for yourself.
Don't have to clock in.
If you need to take time off,you can take it off.
(58:10):
I've met so many cool peopledoing this kind of work and then
, just as I learned and gotbetter in the trade, more
opportunities opened up for me.
I got involved with the propertymanagement group in town, got
involved with an investor herein Nashville and it just I don't
know, man, God opened doorsthat I never thought would ever
(58:32):
be open.
And here's the funny part.
So I told myself while I was inthere, I'm like I'm going to
get my degree.
I got to go back and take thatstupid class.
I love it, Just to you know,spite them, Sure.
So as soon as I got out, Ienrolled back at UTC and I
enrolled in the class and I geta call about a weekend before
(58:58):
class even starts, like after Ienrolled, from my advisor, she's
like hey, you don't have totake that class, you can just
have your degree.
Speaker 1 (59:07):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (59:10):
Yeah, how's that for irony and how's that for a
blessing like that is.
It is a blessing yeah, so Iended up getting my degree on
top of all that.
Speaker 1 (59:23):
Oh, by the way, one of the triggering events that
caused me to just it's like oh,you know that block that you
took out of the Jenga tower.
You didn't have to take thatout, yeah.
Speaker 2 (59:35):
I feel like it's a reward for making the right
choices.
Yeah, when you do what's right,things happen.
Things happen for you when youmake the right choices, when you
make the choices God wants youto make, the hard ones, he opens
(59:58):
the way.
Speaker 1 (59:59):
I like that you said the hard ones, because I think
oftentimes in Christianity it'slike some people, I think, have
a preconceived idea like Godwants me to have.
I think have like apreconceived idea Like God wants
me to have the easy life andthat's not really how that works
.
It's like you sign up forabsolutely the hardest life.
Yeah, you know, to love thepeople that hate you, to pray
(01:00:21):
for the people that are againstyou, and I definitely resonate
with that and I'm glad that youpointed that out.
God does ask us to do hardthings and I don glad that you
pointed that out.
God does ask us to do hardthings and I don't know you very
well, but I'm really proud ofyou and it's really cool to hear
your story.
(01:00:43):
Man, I can't wait because Iwould love to have Rachel on at
some point, absolutely, and hearthat other side of that story.
Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
She's got a whole different perspective on
everything, and a lot hashappened for her and us in the
past few years too.
Yeah, I mean, it's not been allpeaches and cream.
Sure, actually, in 2023, hermom had a stroke.
My and her dad found her, andtwo days later her dad died
(01:01:27):
while her mom was in the ICU.
She was in the ICU for a coupleweeks and they had to tell her
what happened.
Thankfully, she's made a fullrecovery.
She's okay now, good, good.
And then, six weeks after thestroke, though, her brother
(01:01:50):
Mason took his life.
Oh my, so it's been a wild ridethese past few years.
There's been ups and downs, butthat relationship that was able
to be rekindled when Rachelwent back to live with her
parents and she started learningthe tire store paid off because
(01:02:15):
she had to step into that roleat that point?
Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
Yeah, that makes sense.
That's crazy.
So actually, you brought up agood point that I would love to
ask you more about.
When you get out and you arenow back to the normal, or
perceivably normal life ofliving with your family, you now
have your daughter there everyday and your wife.
(01:02:40):
It's like what is that processlike, trying to go from this
life that you have had to adaptto, to try to learn how to get
back into the normalcy of?
Was it a pretty quicktransition, or did it feel
natural?
Or did it take some work?
What is that like?
I always wonder that.
Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
Are you asking about integrating back into tradition?
Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
Yeah, just into what we consider to be a normal life.
Is that difficult?
Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
or is it pretty seamless I don't know, I don't,
I, I have no idea what normal is, because there have been so
many ups and downs, like I, Ithink my normal is like a
mountaintop and a valley.
Um, as far as just getting backinto the groove, walking into a
(01:03:31):
family, it felt very natural.
Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
Good.
Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
And I'll have to say I'm blessed, I'm very lucky to
have the support system that Idid, because a lot of men that
come out of incarceration don'thave anything like that.
They go right back to theneighborhoods that they came out
(01:03:55):
of and there's crime.
Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
It's like all they know.
Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
Yeah, I mean.
The recidivism rate is, I think, between 45% and 55%.
Speaker 1 (01:04:06):
Wow, is it that high?
Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
Yeah, well, it depends on your criminal history
.
Sure, yeah, it's 80, if itdepends on your criminal history
, Sure yeah.
It's 80 if you have a priorcriminal history.
Wow, and a lot of that isopportunity.
I just I can't say I'm notprivileged to have the
opportunities that we've had inthe support system when I came
(01:04:28):
out but it just felt natural, itwas something that I'd been
dreaming about for two years.
So I had all this time tocreate mantras and tell myself
this is the man you want to be,this is the man God wants you to
be, this is the man that yourwife needs you to be and your
(01:04:50):
kids needs you to be Like.
So I created this image and Ijust I'm doing my best to uh,
fulfill it.
Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
Dude that's so powerful and I'd imagine time
moves so slow in thatenvironment and I'd imagine time
moves so slow in thatenvironment.
Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
Dude, dude, I had a book where I would journal and
every day I would write the dateand then I would write next to
it the amount of days and hoursleft.
Wow, just whenever I were tojournal that night night.
There's a lot of time to thinkin there.
There's a lot of time to playguitar in there too.
Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
So do you have your guitar in there.
Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
Um, one of the coolest parts about the rdap
program where I was was we hadour own music room, um, and like
they would elect people to likerun the committees for this.
Committees for that.
It was a requirement of theprogram to be involved in
different committees and I waslucky enough to be nominated and
(01:05:58):
elected to do the music roomthere.
So they gave me a guitarmagazine.
They're like all right, justorder what you want from here
for the music room.
I'm like really.
Speaker 1 (01:06:06):
Wow, that is a blessing right there.
Yeah, all right, so is thatwhere you learned to play, uh?
Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
no, okay, no, that's just where I picked it back up,
because when I when I fell offinto addiction, um, part of
being addicted to a substance isgiving up the things that you
used to love and only focusingon this thing.
(01:06:37):
That is, giving you thefeelings you want without doing
the work to get it.
Speaker 1 (01:06:44):
Oh yeah, I can see that it's more of like a
gratification thing.
It's like ah, this is giving methe reward that I would have
normally gotten from doing allthese other things.
Right, but this is seeminglyeasier.
Speaker 2 (01:06:53):
Right, I mean a lot of people that use uppers
particularly meth, I guess areadrenaline junkies in the first
place.
Are adrenaline junkies in thefirst place and I think
something like only 2%, like 2in 100 people, successfully stop
(01:07:16):
using methamphetamine, but mostof them, after they quit, pick
up something crazy likemotocross or extreme trail
running Something to give themthat bump, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.
And then you know you got cleanfrom all of that while you were
in there.
What was that like?
Because you know you alwayshear and I just want to preface
this first because you know, forcontext, you always hear about
(01:07:50):
people who get clean and howhard it is, but it's like you're
trying to do that also in anenvironment where there is
nothing else.
Like what is that like?
Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
Honestly, it was easy for me.
Yeah, it was, because it was amental change.
It was a choice Like do I wantto live for this?
Do I want to give all of mypower to a drug that has, or any
(01:08:27):
kind of substance that has donenothing but cause hardship in
my life?
Speaker 1 (01:08:31):
yeah do.
Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
I want to give my time to the things that matter,
um, and I gotta, I have to saythat, knowing rachel was
pregnant, um, with somethingthat we created together.
Yeah, that was it for me.
Speaker 1 (01:08:51):
Dude.
That's so profound Because it'sboth sides of it right.
It's the negatives and thepositives that you're looking at
that are both motivating fromdifferent angles.
You've got the positive side,which is your wife and your
child, and then you've got thenegatives motivating you like do
I really want this to keephappening?
The yin and yang wife and yourchild, you know and then you've
got the negatives motivating youLike do I really want this to
(01:09:12):
keep happening?
Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
Like and so the yin and yang.
Speaker 1 (01:09:15):
Yeah, that's interesting.
I've never really thought aboutit like that.
It's like there's hope comingfrom both sides, just in
different formats.
Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
It's all about your choices.
Yeah, what's important?
Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
What's important.
So what would you say tosomebody who is about to
graduate college and has justone no?
Speaker 2 (01:09:37):
I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
I'm kidding, I'm kidding.
No, what would you say tosomebody that may be in a
similar situation?
Like what would be yourencouragement to somebody
legally or addiction wise, orjust maybe there's, maybe they
are at the dosing of meth toreplace?
(01:09:58):
Their riddle in stage like notquite dea knocking on your door,
yet um, that's a really deepquestion.
Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
Uh, I think the simplest answer would be just to
look them in their eyes and sayyou're powerful, you have
everything you need already.
Yeah, it's, it's in you, andjust encourage them to find that
(01:10:33):
power and feed it.
Speaker 1 (01:10:36):
Yeah, and if you're listening right now, guys, and
this is for real, like if you'relistening right now and you've
got like some form of secretaddiction in your life, please
don't keep going.
Think about your spouse, thinkabout your family, think about
your children, think about yourcareer, think about your spouse,
think about your family, thinkabout your children, think about
your career, think about yourlife ahead, get get help.
(01:10:56):
Yes, there is going to beprobably a deep level of shame
to in admitting that, but I feellike keep, keep going, and the
pain that you create foryourself and those around you is
far worse than the pain thatyou feel from admitting you've
got a problem.
Speaker 2 (01:11:14):
Yeah, pride, before a fall.
Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
Yeah, and I can tell you, just sitting in front of
Ian right now you guys can't seehis face and I can just tell
you the passion this guy has forhis family is so good and he
cares, and I can tell he doesn'twant anybody to go through this
.
It's miserable.
Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
Find someone, someone to listen.
Tell someone what you're goingthrough.
Don't try to handle it all onyour own.
Reach out.
There are people that want tohelp you.
Speaker 1 (01:11:58):
That's true.
That's 100% true.
I know that there are peoplethat devote their life to
helping people like this, yeah,in this specific situation.
Okay, so let's take a deepbreath.
That was a lot.
Tell me about Ian, ale andRachel and the family now.
(01:12:18):
Like, tell me about what areyou guys into now?
What's, what's on the horizon?
Speaker 2 (01:12:26):
We are as busy as we could possibly be.
Uh, rachel's rachel runs thetire store middle valley.
Speaker 1 (01:12:34):
Tire and alignment there we go, throw it out there.
Man, give us the website.
What's the middle?
Speaker 2 (01:12:38):
valley tire and alignment.
Middle valley road hicks intennessee uh best prices in town
there you go um, she also, Um,she also is the office manager
at Cleveland City Ballet.
Uh, in Cleveland, obviously,and that's where our daughter
(01:12:59):
takes dance.
Um, so our week is filled withdance classes, gymnastics work.
I work during the days and somenights it's a heavy grind.
And then on Saturdays we havedadder day.
Speaker 1 (01:13:17):
Yeah, there you go, dadder day.
Stole that phrase.
Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
Not stolen, it's like I'm happy to pass the torch On
the weekends.
We just try to hang out and bewith each other because, like I
said earlier, time you only getit once and then it's gone.
So we just try to spend timetogether, enjoy each other's
presence.
Even if we're just sitting in aroom not talking, we're there
(01:13:48):
together.
That was the hardest part aboutincarceration just not being
able to touch the people youlove.
Speaker 1 (01:13:57):
Dude, I know I can't speak for you, but I know for
myself.
As soon as I got out there,dude, I would literally not stop
touching my wife and children,Like I would be so happy to just
like be close to them.
It would be like I want to sitnext to them, Even when I go on
little trips out of town, whichdon't even compare, not even
slightly.
It's like I get home and I justwant to be close to everybody.
(01:14:21):
Dude, that's so cool.
It's super cool.
We need to get our familiestogether.
Speaker 2 (01:14:28):
The whole time while you're talking.
Speaker 1 (01:14:29):
It's like you're over here telling me about your
problems with meth and DEA andI'm like we should get our
families together.
Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
It's wild.
I feel like it's a dream when Ilook back on it.
It doesn't even feel like it'sa part of me, but it is such a
big part of my story.
I had to go through that Istory.
I had to go through that.
I hate that I had to go throughthat, but I did, and it was all
(01:14:57):
for a reason.
Speaker 1 (01:14:59):
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:15:00):
There's so much more to be had in life.
Speaker 1 (01:15:02):
All right.
What's the five-year plan?
What's the goal five years fromnow?
Where do you want to seeyourself being so?
When you listen back on thisepisode, you go oh my gosh, I
did it.
Speaker 2 (01:15:13):
Headlining Bonnaroo.
Speaker 1 (01:15:15):
Yeah, there you go, there you go With your guitar.
Speaker 2 (01:15:20):
Yeah, there we go.
You know, five years from now,I just want to be with my family
.
That's cool.
We could be anywhere togetherTraveling somewhere or just
sitting in a room with my family.
That's cool.
We could be anywhere togethertraveling somewhere or just
sitting in a room.
Speaker 1 (01:15:35):
That's cool.
Yeah, five years from now,you'll have a 12-year-old and a
22-year-old.
Think about that.
That's wild.
That is crazy.
That's wild.
That is so crazy.
Oh, five years from now, weshould say happy birthday to
your oldest, because it'll beyour birthday again.
Happy 22nd birthday.
(01:15:58):
Wow, that's funny.
Well, I don't want to keep youany longer, any longer, and, man
, I really genuinely appreciateyou coming in and taking the
time to share your story and allthe crazy details that come
with it.
Thank you for your encouragingmessage to those who may be in a
(01:16:20):
similar situation.
And if somebody wanted to reachout to you, is there a social
media or something?
Some way they can do that?
Speaker 2 (01:16:34):
Yeah, I'm on.
Speaker 1 (01:16:35):
Facebook.
Okay, how do they find you onFacebook?
Ian Aile.
Speaker 2 (01:16:37):
I-A-I-N-A-I-L-E, A-L-E easiest name ever.
Speaker 1 (01:16:39):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (01:16:40):
Yeah last name first, first name last.
Dude, you have more vowels inyour name than consonants.
My parents tried to make iteasy on me.
Speaker 1 (01:16:51):
What's your middle name?
Speaker 2 (01:16:53):
Taylor.
Speaker 1 (01:16:54):
Taylor T-A-Y-L.
Yeah, I think you're even right, even with vowels and
consonants.
That's awesome, ian, thank youso much.
I literally can't say thanksenough.
Guys, thank you for listening.
Please go and check out allthese incredible stories.
These guys, they're notcelebrities, they're not, you
(01:17:14):
know, famous people.
They're people with realstories, just like you listening
, and if you have a story thatyou'd like to share, please
comment, hit us up.
We'd love to hear from you.
And thank you guys so much forsupporting what we do.
We're just real men sharingreal stories, trying to
encourage each other.
So, ian, thank you, brother, Iappreciate you.
(01:17:36):
Let's go grab some lunch.
All right guys, welcome to episode four of Ash
and Iron.
I've got a wonderful guest withme today.
I want you to go ahead and justintroduce yourself.
Tell us a little bit about whoyou are.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Man, thanks for having me.
My name's Ian Ale.
I'm 37 years old, tall, darkand funny looking, and we're
just here to talk.
We're just here to talk.
I grew up in Chattanooga, Ispent my life there, and where
(00:35):
do we go from there?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
So what do you do right now?
What do you do for a living?
What's your life look like dayto day.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Day to day.
So I'm a carpenter, I docontracting, we build houses, we
remodel houses Basically.
If you want it, we'll build it.
Nice Tree houses those are themost fun.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
What You've actually built tree houses.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah, absolutely, how many Three?
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Dude, that's epic.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yeah, they.
How many?
Three Dude?
That's epic.
Yeah, they're fun.
Whatever you want us to build,we try to help you bring your
dream to life, that's great anddo you have a business or you
work for someone else?
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Like, what does that look like?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
So I work with Baldry Home Improvement.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
And then we have a property management um aspect to
the job to uh work for aninvestor out of nashville and
basically just anything.
Yeah, if it, when it comes tobuilding things with your hands
and just getting in there anddoing it, we uh, we try to
tackle it.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
That's cool all right , so um?
Do you have a family?
Are you single?
What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I do have a family.
Okay, I have two daughters.
One's just turned 17 today.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
It's her birthday.
Happy birthday Happy birthday,damia.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I have a seven-year-old, taylor, and my
wife, rachel.
Oh, that's awesome.
And how long have you beenmarried, rachel?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Oh, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
And how long have you been married?
I've been married since 2019,October 13th.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
She'll be happy I remembered that.
You rehearsed it for theepisode?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah, I had to look it up before, but we've been
together since 2013.
So we've been together 10 years.
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
No more than 10 years .
Wow, yeah, it's crazy.
Like the other day I forget whoI was talking to.
I said something like back in2020.
And then I was like, oh, thatwas five years ago.
Yeah, that's wild to thinkabout.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
COVID was five years ago.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Isn't that crazy.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
So where does time go ?
Well, cool.
So, man, I'm super excited tohear your story, like to
actually get to talk to you.
For those you listening rightnow, we've literally hung out.
We've had the most chaoticmorning ever and the city showed
up at my house, told me ourelectric would be out for four
hours.
So we drove to Nashville, seteverything up here at the office
(02:53):
in Nashville and then I forgotthe power cord at my house.
So my lovely wife drove thepower cord to us and we just now
got started.
So I've been hanging out withIan all morning and avoiding any
serious conversations, so likewe've just been talking about
music and television a littlebit here and there and just like
random stuff.
And I'm genuinely excited tolike, hear your story and like,
(03:15):
and why you?
Yeah, like why you're on Ashand Iron, and I say it that way
because everybody who'snominated it's because the
person that's nominating themknows a little bit already,
right?
So I'm excited that Michaelcame on here and nominated you.
(03:36):
He's become a great friend.
I really love that guy and hiswife.
They're great people, and sothat makes me even more excited
to sit in front of you andhonored that you would be
willing to come on the podcast.
So thank you for being on.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
It's a privilege, absolutely.
So, all right, let's do this.
(03:56):
I would love to hear your storylike wherever you'd like to
start.
You can start as young as you'dlike, start recent and work
backwards, quentin Tarantinostyle.
However you want to do it.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Let's just jump in Sure.
This is the hardest part ofanything is getting started.
Let's see, when I was in highschool I was prescribed Adderall
Okay, and I was on that forseveral years and it did what it
was supposed to my grades.
(04:31):
I went from a C student to an Astudent, got involved in
activities after school, beforeschool.
It really changed my life.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
So you had ADHD, adhd , yeah, okay.
Yeah, I struggle with that too.
What was it before you gotprescribed the Adderall, before
you were on it?
Talk to me through like what,because, as someone who also has
ADHD and I've actually nevertaken anything for it what is it
like, going from the brain andmindset that you had as a person
(05:03):
with ADHD?
And then what did the medicinemake you feel like?
Or what did it do?
Like how does that, what didthat look like?
All right.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
So say, you're in a classroom, you're learning some
science.
If there's a window in thatclassroom, that's where I'm
looking, because there might bea butterfly outside of that
window and I might be thinkingabout what the butterfly is
thinking about.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Anything but what.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
I'm supposed to be focusing on.
There could be three dots up onthe ceiling that I think look
like a happy face or something,Just couldn't focus on anything.
And then, when they diagnosedme with ADHD, they put me on
Adderall and man, I just lovedschool after that.
(05:49):
I loved learning.
It allowed me to get into whatI was doing and it worked.
It did exactly what it wassupposed to do.
So fast forward I start.
I graduated, I went to collegeat UTC and did well there for
(06:09):
several years and I guess thebeginning of this I said all
that to parlay into how my lifewent from being well on track to
hitting rock bottom.
So I had a break-in at my houseand someone stole some goods
(06:33):
and they stole my prescription,Adderall.
And I had a neighbor at thetime who I told him what was
going on.
The police had came and he waslike man, I might be able to
help you out.
I've got this other thing.
It's kind of like Adderall, butI can give you some if you want
(06:55):
.
I was like sure I didn't knowat the time.
I'd heard what methamphetaminewas.
I'd heard what methamphetaminewas, but I'd never even I, just
I was like man.
That's a hard drug, but I wasdesperate and young and stupid
(07:16):
so I tried it and it wasn'tanything like Adderall.
Okay, it made a mountain out ofa molehill, for a terrible
analogy there.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
So I kept.
I used the meth.
I tried to.
There's no responsible way touse meth Absolutely, but I would
try to measure it out and tryto make a dose that was
comparable to the adderall, andI did that for six months,
stayed in college and but it'snot sustainable.
(07:59):
I really fell into a terribleaddiction with methamphetamine
because it wasn't just aboutaccomplishing things at that
point, it was about getting high.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So let me not to interrupt your story at all,
because I don't want to lose anyof that.
It's incredible.
I can't wait to hear where thisgoes.
But when you were dosing outyou know the methamphetamines
into like what you call like acomparable dose to Adderall,
like was there any sort ofadditional focus or anything
(08:37):
from that that you were like,okay, yeah, this is kind of
helping me.
Or was it just like, okay, thisisn't anything like adderall at
all, but I like the way itmakes me feel.
So I'm gonna keep taking itlike.
What was that mindset?
If you don't mind me asking umwell, there was.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
There was a comparable dose, um, because
they're both amphetamines, um,and I guess the transition
started happening when, justlike with anything, with coffee,
with any drug, any substance,you start building a tolerance
(09:15):
to it.
So I started doing more andAdderall was covered by
insurance, meth was not.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Right, right, yeah, yeah, I can imagine that being a
problem.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
And as a poor college student, I didn't have money
for it.
Um, so as my tolerance went up,my use went up and my ability
to pay for it went down.
So what I would do was, youknow, just buy a little bit, and
(09:44):
if my friends wanted some, Iwould give them a little bit,
and they would give me a littlebit.
And if my friends wanted some,I would give them a little bit,
they would give me a little bitof money.
I would pay for it.
Like I said, it worked forabout six months.
This was senior year in college.
At this point I was gettingready for graduation and I
(10:07):
applied and they told me that Icouldn't graduate because I'd
missed a freshman level intro tocomputing class.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Ah what.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yeah, and I was like I've gone all the way through
college.
I think I can do the computing.
But the rebel in me just said,okay, screw this, I'm done.
So I left college and let'sjust fast forward.
Six months later, the DEA isknocking on my door.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Okay, hold on.
Nope, we can't fast forward sixmonths.
How did that happen?
That seems like it escalatedquickly.
It did so what?
Okay, let me back up here.
You're in college.
You almost hit the finish line.
A discrepancy in the systemessentially kept you from
(10:58):
graduating and you're just likethat's BS.
I ain't doing that, so walk methrough your life there.
You're no longer a student, I'massuming, right, you're just
living life, yeah, doing meth,yeah.
And so walk me through thatseason, because that had to have
been a hard thing.
(11:19):
You've spent your whole careerin college working for that
moment, and then it's gone.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
It was quite a transition.
You know, I grew up in awonderful family.
My parents stayed together,they provided for me, they
helped me out when I needed help.
It was a Christian household,you know.
It was a Christian household,you know, and there was all this
(11:47):
shame that I felt for what Iwas doing behind the scenes,
because I felt like I was livingtwo separate lives.
I was two separate people.
After I dropped out man, Idon't even know how to parlay
(12:11):
into the next six months.
They were dark.
I saw things while I was usingpeople that I had never thought
I'd be around.
It wasn't anything for someoneto show up to your house in a
(12:31):
stolen car, or I mean, the firsttime I saw someone use a needle
was in my own house, and that'sa scary thing to see.
It's stuff you see on TV.
You know, yeah, that you grow upand you're like, especially
when you're doing well, you'relike I'll never be around any of
that stuff.
And then it's just one smallyes, and then another yes, and
(12:57):
then okay, well, I'll do this.
And the next thing you knowyou're living in a hotel.
It just happens so quick, yourun out of money and you start.
What I did was start brokeringdeals.
(13:17):
So this is all leading up tothe DEA.
I had a friend who was not afriend at all, but he called me
up and said hey, can you get metwo ounces of meth?
And I was like, well, I don'tkeep that, but I can call the
(13:41):
person.
So I did, and the guy will callhim confidential informant.
One which I found out he waslater came and picked me up,
took me to do the by, bought thestuff from the guy and that was
the first count.
That started the indictmentthat.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
I had no idea, so they were tracking you at that
point.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah, well, they were tracking the guy.
They were investigating the guythat I bought my stuff from.
Okay, Got it.
So we would, rachel and I, mywife, we would rent an apartment
or a house for two months, andI don't even know how they would
(14:29):
let us rent these places, butsomehow they did.
And then two months later, whenwe didn't pay rent, we'd have
to go somewhere else.
Well, on our third house I geta knock on the door and that's
when the DEA showed up and theywere like hey, do you know this
person?
(14:49):
And I was like yeah.
And they were like, well, weknow you and we have you, Like
it's over.
So they asked me to come in.
They interviewed me that daydown there in Chattanooga and,
man, they told me things aboutmy life that I didn't even
remember.
Wow yeah, they had really beenlooking for these other two guys
(15:12):
that were in the conspiracy andthat's what I was eventually
charged with.
It was a conspiracy todistribute methamphetamine, and
that you grow up you're like, oh, I'll never go to federal
prison.
But, man, let me just tell youright now, it's so easy, it's so
(15:34):
easy to fall into it.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
You know what, what really stands out about, about
where, what your story so far,with what you've shared, is like
.
I think people in general, wemake this assumption that it'll
never, that could never happento me, because I've got a good
family, I've got, you know, x, y, z, and it really just goes to
(15:56):
show you like it can, like itcan happen.
You know what I mean, and thatthe variable isn't whether your
parents are together or not.
Happen.
You know what I mean and thatthe variable isn't whether your
parents are together or not.
You know, the variable isn'twhether you go to college or not
.
And I think that it's this issuch an important story for
people to hear Um, especiallysome of the younger guys and
girls, if they're listeningbecause it's like just because
(16:19):
you've got your life togetherdoesn't mean it can't, it can't
happen to you, you know.
So, all right, let me walk backthrough this.
So they show up, they tell youthey've got you, they charge you
with conspiracy to distribute,or how did you phrase that?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
It was a conspiracy to distribute meth.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Okay, and so they hit you with that.
What happened after that?
Speaker 2 (16:49):
you with that?
What?
What happened after that?
Um, so when they approached metheir goal at the time because
was to turn me, to turn me intoa ci for them to work, for them
to get more people they told methat I was a target, I was the
perfect hit.
Perfect hit because I was thiswhite guy that didn't look like
a meth head, that could carryhimself in school and I could go
(17:13):
places that they wanted me togo.
So I had never really had anyencounters very few with law
enforcement before that time hadany encounters very few with
law enforcement before that time.
And so on the first interview Iwas like, yeah, okay, I'll do
that.
And then I ghosted him BecauseI kind of got to thinking about
(17:45):
like, who's scarier, the DEA orthe people that I have?
somehow got myself involved with.
So I ghosted them, and youcan't ghost them for long.
They eventually find me, I went.
They eventually find me, I went.
So during this time, after theyfirst came, I moved back in
(18:11):
with my parents because I wasessentially homeless.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Was that in Chattanooga?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
It was in Chattanooga .
Yeah, we wore out our welcomein every place that we tried to
rent, out of money, out of hope,and my parents let me and my
(18:37):
wife well, she wasn't my wife atthe time, but they let us both
move in, and we started to tryto get our lives together, and
it's a hard process.
Part of that process, though,was getting my license changed
to my new legal address, andthat's what triggered the
(18:58):
marshals to find where I was.
Ah man, so I was out.
I'd gotten a job at a reallycool place in Chattanooga, and I
get a call from my dad one day,and he's like hey, you want to
tell me why the marshals arehere looking for you?
Because they had no idea I was.
(19:19):
I didn't tell him about myencounter with the DEA.
I didn't tell him about myencounter with the DEA, so I
knew I was hit.
So I called him and arranged toturn myself in and I thought
(19:41):
they're going to let me get awaywith this, I'm not going to
have to do any time or go downthat dark road.
But it wasn't the case.
So when I met with them, theyput me in handcuffs and took me
to Silverdale, which at thatpoint was a private prison there
(20:05):
in Chattanooga.
As soon as I get there, I'mbooked and they put me in the
federal pod.
Man, let me just tell you, whenyou first go into a situation
like that, first go into jail.
(20:27):
It's, I mean, it's just you're,you're, you're on your toes,
your eyes are open, you don'tknow what to expect because you
know.
The only thing I knew aboutjail was I thought people got
raped and sure like violence.
And and sure enough it was.
There was a lot of violence,but within the within, for the
(20:47):
first 10 minutes.
Um, my co-conspirator happenedto be in the same pod oh my lord
yeah, and they.
They were under the assumptionthat I was the reason they were
in there.
Um, so, never been in a fightin my life, first 10 minutes in
(21:09):
jail.
He comes out of the woodworkand starts swinging um, I saw,
you know.
What do you do?
Yeah, you got to fight back.
You have to.
Um, what?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
do, you do yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
You got to fight back , you have to.
So my first 10 minutes in jailwent like that, and my next 10
minutes I'm already in the shoe.
The segregated housing unit.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Okay, so I'm going to back you up a little bit and
then we're going to get back.
There's a lot of gaps and we'regoing to get back into this
spot.
When your dad I'm rewindingback a little bit, so when your
dad is like, hey, why are themarshals here?
And I can't imagine for you,right, you grew up in a
(21:53):
Christian household your dad'snow like what is going on?
Were you the one to tell yourdad like this is what I've been
into, or did he find out?
What was that like?
Speaker 2 (22:06):
He knew that I had been struggling with something.
He just didn't know what.
And you know that feeling whenyour first love breaks up with
you.
Mm-hmm your first love breaksup with you, where it just feels
(22:27):
like your heart drops to yourtoes and you're hollow inside.
Yeah, that's what it felt like.
I just felt all the shame of myexistence come crashing down
and it just it hurt.
It hurt.
I just I was like this iswhat's going on, like dad, I'm
(22:51):
in trouble and it hurt because Iknew it hurt him.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
And what do you do from that point?
You know one of the reasons Iever got into?
(23:24):
Yeah, it helped me accomplishthe things that you know my
brain was not trying toaccomplish on its own, but what
it did psychologically was Igave all my power, or attributed
all my power, to the drug I wasusing, and not to myself.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
That's powerful.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
And it just sucked me in.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
When did you have that realization?
Was that later in life, or wasthat like sort of in prison?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
It was when I was incarcerated.
There's plenty of time to think, especially when you spend your
first two weeks in jail ever inthe shoe, in the shoe, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
That's not good, okay , so I'm going to fast forward
just a little bit, not all theway back to where we were.
You get brought in, they openup the cell.
Is the other guy in therealready or were you in there
first?
Speaker 2 (24:24):
He was already in there.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
So when you looked in there and you saw that it was
him, did you have that feelingof like, oh, this is not good,
or did you think maybe he'sgoing to be cool?
Speaker 2 (24:34):
No, you knew it was going to be bad.
It looked like a bull coming togore me.
I knew it was bad to be bad.
I mean it looked like a bullcoming to gore me.
I knew it was bad right off therip.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
So I mean yeah, okay, all right.
And so you get into thataltercation and then they I'm
assuming they assume you're theproblem they put you in the shoe
For everybody listening.
Can you describe what that'slike, or or is that something
you're not allowed to the shoe?
Yeah, I don't know how.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
I don't know how that works oh man, I'll tell you
anything you want to hear okay,um so the shoe was the most
disgusting place I've ever beenin my life.
They keep the lights on 24 hoursa day.
It's freezing cold in there.
No one ever sleeps, um, soeveryone's yelling all the time.
There's no way to get any kindof rest.
The first night I was there,someone in the tier above me
(25:33):
broke the plumbing of theirlittle toilet sink combo.
We called them thechromosoccies because they were
just these silver, nasty littletoilet things.
You get your drinking water andright like 16 inches above
where you pee.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
That's gross.
Yeah, really gross.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Well, what was even grosser is when they popped that
plumbing line it just flooded.
So I was in the bottom tier andthen you had to step down into
where the bed was.
So, by you know, in the nextcouple hours there was six
inches of water in the bottom ofthe cell and I couldn't tell
(26:16):
you when the last time it wasclean, because I'm seeing like
slime, no telling what kind ofslime it was you know what I
mean, yeah.
Hair from thousands of years youknow, yeah, thousands of years
of hair just floating around.
It stinks, dude.
But I'm just my first six hoursin any kind of jail.
(26:45):
I'm like where the hell am I?
What have I gotten myself into?
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yeah, and for all you know, this was an anomaly.
That's never, ever happenedever.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
But from your perspective, it's like this is
what I get to live in for thenext.
Yeah, okay, uh, so the waterstayed in there for 24 hours and
they wouldn't let people comein to clean it because it's the
segregated housing.
Uh, they gave me a squeegee atone point and said here you can
try to squeegee out your cell.
The guy that I was in therewith that's a whole other story.
He wouldn't say any words, buthe would just kind of stand at
the front of the cell with hishands down his pants, making
(27:35):
noises.
It was a hell, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
That doesn't sound like a real life moment.
That sounds like a movie script.
It felt like a movie script.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Like all, my worst nightmares about jail were
coming true.
Couldn't use the phone and thiswas it happened on December
21st 2016.
That's when I went into jail,and I didn't know it at the time
, but I wasn't going to come outfor two years, so yeah, In that
(28:16):
moment did you have like a presort of conceived idea of like
how long you might be in therefor?
Absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
So that was probably even more miserable, wasn't it?
Because, not knowing.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
I felt dead.
I felt or I wanted to die.
I just wondered where mygirlfriend Rachel was and
wondered what my family wasthinking, because they couldn't
get a hold of me either.
They tried to call Silverdaleand because I was in segregated
(28:51):
housing, they couldn't tell themwhere I was.
They were like, yeah, he's here, but we can't tell you anything
else.
So it was tough for them too.
And to put the icing on thecake here, in the six months
leading up to it, when me andRachel were trying to escape
(29:15):
that lifestyle, she got pregnant.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Oh my gosh, and did you know that then?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yeah, I did.
I found out a week before I wasarrested.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
That hits different yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
I mean my heart's pumping right now just thinking
about it.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, okay, so you're in there.
Did they tell you how long youwere going to be in the shoe?
For no, all right.
So there's a lot of unknownshere, right, and it's not just
about your environment.
There's a lot of unknowns ofyour outside life as well.
Like what are my parentsthinking?
What is Rachel thinking?
(29:57):
I've got a kid?
Like, how long am I going to bein here?
Speaker 2 (30:00):
How's my dog?
Yeah, how's my dog.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Yeah, how's my dog?
You didn't tell me you had adog?
Yeah, but all right.
So what's next?
What happens after that?
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Okay.
So they had to separate theco-defendants because one of
them was in one pod, the otherwas in another pod.
So I had to be taken to BradleyCounty Jail in Cleveland just
to be away from them while theprocess of trials and everything
(30:35):
else was going on.
So they take me up to BradleyCounty and they always transfer
you at crazy times too.
Then you have to sit in intakeforever.
Jail is so cold it is freezingin there all the time.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Do you think all of that's intentional, like the
time that they transfer?
Speaker 2 (30:58):
you.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
It's just to keep you guessing.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yeah, it is, and the temperature is definitely
intentional too.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
keeps you chill yeah, like, like for real.
Yeah, I, I worked at apsychiatric hospital.
We used to keep it ac crankedin there too.
It kept people calm.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yeah, yeah so bradley , county, um, I get up there, I
still don't know the process andlike how this is going to go,
and they it's better for becauseI'm not in the shoe.
(31:35):
They take me to court in acouple days.
The arraignment, your firstcourt date, where you just tell
them I plead guilty, not guilty.
They'll only let you plead notguilty at that time and then you
just go back to county jailsand just hang out and it's as
(32:00):
bad as you think it is.
There's so much because countyjails are just catch-alls.
I was sleeping, so the rooms arelike a glorified bathroom.
It is your bathroom and whereyou sleep they're maybe 80
square feet and they had there'sa bunk bed and then they would
(32:24):
have two people on the floor sowe would be four people deep in
these rooms.
And you know I don't want to bein the bathroom when anyone's
pooping, but when there's fourmen in a cell all having to use
the bathroom trying to get along, it gets cramped.
One of my cellmates was thereone week.
(32:49):
He got released and he was backthe next.
His little pad was right nextto mine and he was like yeah,
man, I just, uh, stabbed mygirlfriend to death.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
I'm like where am I?
Yeah, it's like why, why am Ihere with you?
Like that don't even seemproportionate to the crime,
right um?
Speaker 2 (33:16):
it's just there's so much violence, uh, in the county
jails, like I was watching apoker game.
I never got into any of thepoker games.
People like to bet.
People get in trouble when theylose money and start owing
money.
There's a poker game going onand you can't.
The food in jail sucks, period,but you get, you can have,
(33:38):
commissary, where, uh, you canget some ramen noodles or
something.
You'll pay like $1.50 for onepack of ramen too.
We didn't have a microwave.
We had a hot pot where it'lljust boil the water for you.
Well, this guy owed someonesome money and one of the
(33:58):
inmates boiled shaving cream,made this little concoction of
it in the hot pot, came upbehind the guy and threw it on
his face.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
My gosh.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
And it was like napalm.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
So he's trying to wipe it off.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
He's just spreading this hot stuff all over him, he
tried to wipe it off and hewiped the skin right off the
side of his face.
Oh my gosh, all this to justcreate the picture of this
hellscape that county jails are,or incarceration.
(34:38):
It's not supposed to be nicefor sure.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
I get that.
So what's going through yourmind?
Obviously, there's moments ofrealization, right, like okay, I
hurt my family, I've got a kidon the way, things have got to
change.
But there's a lot ofuncertainty, so that makes
things rough.
It's hard to come up with agame plan when there's a lot of
(35:01):
uncertainty but then, at thesame time, you're in an
environment where you're lookingaround and there's just a lot
of violence, a lot of filth, alot of chaos.
For lack of better words, itsounds like Talk me through.
What do you do in that?
What do you do with all thatinformation?
What?
Speaker 2 (35:22):
do you do with all that information?
So basically, you're in countyjust during the process of
either a trial or a pleading outand there's not really much you
can do to plan in a county jailbecause you don't know what's
(35:43):
happening next.
You're in there with otherfederal inmates or soon-to-be
federal inmates.
The feds have like a 98%conviction rate.
Basically, if they've told youthey got you, they got you, and
if you go to trial you're goingto get like four times the
(36:05):
amount of time as you would.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
I see, yeah, you're prolonging that situation.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yes, you're staying in county jail longer, you're
prolonging your eventualincarceration.
So there really wasn't much Icould do.
But I had money on the books,thankfully, to make the phone
calls to check in with Rachel,see how the pregnancy was going.
(36:32):
You do have a lot of time tojust ponder, just to think about
how you got there, where youwant to go.
There's just not much you cando to start acting on it.
So what I did?
I didn't have a criminalhistory which allowed me to get
(36:55):
this thing called a safety valvewhich lowered my eventual
sentence.
Excuse me.
So when it was all said anddone, after we go to court, I
get sentenced to a B1A.
It's a Class A felony.
It's the worst you can get.
(37:16):
It's the same charge class thatthey give human traffickers and
I was like for something thatweighs less than a tube of
toothpaste.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Do you feel like they were trying to set an example
somehow, or do you feel likethat was accurate for the charge
?
Speaker 2 (37:38):
In what way?
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Well, for example, you kind of compared it to
traffickers, so it's like, inone way, it almost sounds like
this doesn't even seem like itfits the crime, and so it makes
me think.
Do you think they were justtrying to make an example out of
you by giving you a harder?
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Yeah, I don't think they were trying to make an
example out of me.
The guidelines are pretty clearcut this amount of this.
Pretty clear.
Cut this amount of thissubstance gets you this amount
of time, mitigated by thecriminal history and sure, all
that.
Um, and let me, let me firstsay this I take full
(38:19):
responsibility for everythingthat I did.
Sure, the problem was me.
I was the reason I was in there.
No blame on anyone else butmyself.
But I had a hard timereconciling the fact that it was
never even mine, like I justbrokered and facilitated things,
(38:41):
but that's part of it.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
that checked off the list, wow, yeah so you hear this
charge right what goes throughyour mind.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
I'm screwed.
I'm screwed.
I'm not going to get to see mykid be born, I'm not going to
get to see her grow up.
I'm not gonna be able toprovide, uh, as a father.
Um, I just, I just saw my hopesand dreams disappear.
(39:23):
It's a hopeless feeling for along time, but anyways.
So I go to sentencing.
They give me 41 months, whichwas great, and that was more
than I, or less than I couldhave hoped for.
(39:45):
Yeah, yeah, because the uh, thecharge itself carries mandatory
minimum 10 to life and I waslike 10 years, 10 years in
prison, good, like, how do yougo from like not ever being in
trouble to getting a 10-yearsentence?
Speaker 1 (40:07):
um, that's minimum it's a mandatory.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
You know what I mean like 10 to life.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
10 is like best possible case scenario which is
hard to fathom yeah, um was itthe uh, would you call it the
lever safety valve?
Safety valve, that's it.
Was that what got it reduceddown to the 40, whatever it was.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Yeah.
So if you the way they word itis if you plead quick and early
accept responsibility and for methat just meant saying yes, I
did what's on this paper,regardless if it was true or not
If you plead quick and earlyaccept responsibility and you
(40:48):
have no criminal history, itlets you get the safety valve
which breaks the mandatoryminimum and brings your criminal
history or your sentencingguidelines down.
So I got 41 months and it wasall kind of whirlwind.
After that, like.
I went back to Bradley Countyand I think it was within a week
(41:12):
the marshals came and picked meup in the middle of the night
again, took us on a bus down toAtlanta where we were classified
and then sent on our way towhere everyone's camp or FCI
their security classificationwas and thankfully, with no
(41:35):
criminal history, they sent meto a camp.
They're called satellite camps.
They're they're really justthere to serve the higher
security prisons.
A lot of them don't even havefences on them, but it's still
prison, sure.
So yeah, I went from hopes anddreams child on the way to
(42:01):
federal prison and this allhappened like within 12 to 16
months.
It happens very quickly.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
All right, so I'm going to rewind again just a
little bit so you're able tohave calls.
You find out that this is yoursentencing.
This is what's going down.
Find out that this is yoursentencing.
This is where what, what'sgoing down.
Did you?
Did you get to talk to rachelafter that to like explain to
her, like this is how longthey're telling me I'm going to
be in for I'm going to betransferred to another facility,
(42:32):
like all of that?
And then what, what was thatlike?
And then how did she handle allthat?
And like what did?
What was that like?
She?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
uh, you know she handled it like a boss.
Uh, she was really hoping thatI would just get out, but that
was a pipe dream.
Um man, she really stepped up.
She, even she went to the.
She did so much for me.
Um, she, she went to theprosecutor and offered to to
(43:06):
turn people to inform on people,just to help me get a lighter
sentence.
I like Rachel as a pregnantwoman.
I don't know.
I love Rachel.
Yeah, that's cool man.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
I hope I get to meet her at some point.
That's really cool.
All right, so she's handlingthis like a boss.
She's like ride or die.
I'm in this for the long haul,I ain't going nowhere, and so
that's got to feel reassuring,right.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
So you get transferred to the camp.
Are you allowed to say wherethe camp was and what that
experience was like?
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Yeah, the camp was and what that experience was
like.
Yeah, the camp was in Edgefield, south Carolina, right outside
of Augusta, okay, and it was hot, it was very hot down there.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
What time of year was that?
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Well, I got to spend several seasons there.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
I guess I didn't think about that before I said
it.
Yeah, I don't remember exactlywhen I was transferred down
there, I guess.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
I didn't think about that before I said it.
Yeah, I don't remember exactlywhen I was transferred down
there.
I think it was May or so.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Okay, so it was about to get hot.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
Yeah, it was, if it wasn't already.
Oh man, it stayed hot downthere and the camp was great.
Prison is, and the camp wasgreat, prison is.
You're still incarcerated.
But it's so much different thanthe county jails Because, like
I said, the county jails arecatch-alls.
There's people that come and go, there's murderers.
(44:41):
At the camps no one had seriousviolent charges.
Everyone had under 10 years todo.
In the county jails it's allbroken down by race.
Just like in the highersecurities you're really
expected to hang out with whitepeople if you're white or black
(45:03):
people if you're black.
But in the camps everyone knewthey were short-timing, so they
knew they were getting out.
They had an out date.
They didn't want to go back toa higher security prison.
There was a lot of programmingthat you could do and a program
(45:24):
called RDAP, which I did,residential Drug Abuse Treatment
, which I did.
Residential drug abusetreatment.
Just there was a lot ofopportunity for development and
planning in the camps.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
I feel like the camp.
Was that a place where youstarted to feel like hope was
being restored?
I was, Because I kind of getthat vibe because of the way you
kind of described the countyjail and the experiences there
and now the verbiage that you'reusing to describe this place,
it almost feels like you startedto get some hope restored.
Did they allow visitors?
They did.
What was that like?
Speaker 2 (46:05):
And my wonderful wife and mom came down every month
to see me.
Wow, every month they allowedin-person visits so we didn't
have to do it on a phone call.
It's actually where I got tosee my daughter for the first
(46:27):
time, wow got to see my daughterfor the first time.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Wow, did you get to see your wife while she was
still pregnant there, or did shenot get to come visit until
after your daughter was born,not till after?
Speaker 2 (46:41):
my daughter was born.
The crazy part actually was soI remember when I was
transferred now it was in AugustI got the call or I got the
notification that I was beingtransferred and they took me
down to the little holding roomand I called Rachel.
I was like, hey, I'm gettingmoved.
And she was like, well, I'mhaving this baby, like tomorrow
(47:05):
they're inducing me.
So during the wholeclassification process when we
went down to Atlanta, there wasa period of like four or five
days where I knew she had goneto the hospital and was induced
and had the kid and I just can'tget all over.
So I get down to the camp andsomeone else that had a phone
(47:31):
set up had to call her for meand that's when I found out that
it went fine healthy weight,beautiful baby girl like a giant
deep breath of relief, likeokay, everything's good.
I think I just broke down.
I mean, I broke down a ton oftimes rightfully so, right, yeah
, all right.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
so I want to hear the story of when you get to meet
your daughter for the first time.
After having gone through allof that, I want to hear what
that experience was like.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Surreal.
She had my dad's hands and mydad had actually just died in
October, right before I wasarrested.
Oh man, I'm sorry, brother.
Yeah, so I mean, and my momactually got to cut the, cut the
(48:29):
cord, so it was the best of ahorrible situation.
Yeah, it was, um, I got to holdher.
Smell her.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
Bro, dude, I saw that .
Look, don't dude, for anybodyout there that's got a kid.
They know, they know what youmean.
Like dude, smelling your kidswhen they're born like just
little babies, like even theirbreath smells so good.
It's like I don't even know.
And then they get older and thenI don't know what happens, but
(49:02):
it's like, yeah, there'ssomething special about that and
what's awesome is there's likealmost like this underlying
analogy of redemption, whereyour dad passes and then your
daughter's got his hands and youweren't there, but your mom was
there, you know, and it's likethere's something very special
(49:23):
about all of that and I don'teven know what it is Like.
I can't like pinpoint it and belike dude, this is the special
thing, you know.
But it's like it's a metaphor,almost you know what it is Like.
I can't like pinpoint it and belike dude, this is the special
thing.
But it's like it's a metaphor,almost you know what I mean and
it's a really cool thing.
All right, so you meet yourdaughter, You're holding her,
you're breaking down, like it'sa very emotional thing.
How's Rachel holding up?
Like how's all this going?
Speaker 2 (49:57):
so, um, she moved back in with her parents, um for
the interim during this wholeprocess and started working with
her dad.
Um and her family had a tirestore, or has had a tire store,
and he started training her totake that over, um, which I
don't think would have happenedhad I not gone away.
(50:20):
You know a lot of horriblethings happen, saw a lot of
crazy things, but god happened.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
Saw a lot of crazy things, but god puts us in
places that he knows we canovercome.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
Oh, absolutely.
Sometimes he puts us therebecause he wants to see us
overcome.
Um, and yeah, um, she, she hada very strained relationship
with her parents up until thetime when she moved back in.
So that let her rekindle thisrelationship, build that trust,
(51:02):
that family back up.
Um, it allowed me to spendquite some time thinking about
what freedom actually is.
Time is the only commodity thatwe can't ever get anything back
.
Once it's spent, it's gone.
(51:23):
And I remember actually layingin the shoe when I first got
there, just thinking about howmuch I wanted to be out and how
much I wanted to take the trashout.
It's the little things.
I want to check the mail, Iwant to sweep the driveway.
It's not these huge life eventslike Six Flags, it's the small
(51:50):
things.
That's freedom.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
Like, yeah, it's like I want to go cut my grass.
Yeah, With my headphones on.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
Yeah, I want to work.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
I want to have a bonfire?
Speaker 1 (52:01):
Yes, dude, I would miss bonfires so much.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
They actually let at the camp.
They uh people have thesebonfires in the tp.
Well, it wasn't a bonfire inthe tp, but they had this.
I know what you meant the uh,the indian population could go
in there and do what they did,yeah, so that was every week,
(52:28):
and I brought it up because youcould smell it throughout the
whole compound it smelled likefreedom.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
I bet it did so.
You're at the camp.
For how long?
What's the time period you'rethere?
Speaker 2 (52:40):
I'm at the camp for 16 months, I think so you were
in county for a while.
Yeah about 6, 7, 8, 16 months.
I think, Okay, yeah, so youwere in county for a while.
Yeah, about six, seven, eightmonths yeah that's crazy.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
Okay, so all right.
So you get to camp, you'rethere.
Do you have any like definingmoments there that you're like,
when you look back on it, you'relike man, that moment changed
my life or that thing I learnedor that program I was in.
Like was there a person there,a teacher, like another person
that was doing time there withyou, like was there things like
(53:17):
that?
Like that you feel like youknow, looking back on it, you're
like, wow, that was pivotal tolike where I am now.
You know.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
So part of the worry about asyou get closer to your out date
is I'm going to be a convictedfelon now and you know how am I
going to.
I went from about to graduatecollege and start a career to
(53:52):
convicted felon, spending twoyears in prison.
Lickety, split man real quick.
So I was like, what am I goingto do?
And a man at my church, davidMartin, got a hold of my mom
because he was aware of what wasgoing on.
(54:14):
Everyone at the church was andhe was like listen, I've got him
.
When he comes out, he's got ajob.
So that man that took so muchpressure off.
I was like, okay, I'm, I'm, I'mgonna, I'm gonna be okay, we're
gonna make it work.
Um, so when I get out, and wedid the halfway house for four
(54:37):
months or whatever, and, uh, Istart working for David Martin
as a carpenter.
Um, and man, I loved it.
I just working with my handswas it's the best.
You get to be outside, you getto build things, you get to use
(54:59):
saws.
I just it was a pleasure.
So I worked with him for thatwas the defining moment that
kind of changed the trajectoryof where I was going Him
offering that olive branch whileI was still in there wondering
what branch I could walk on.
(55:20):
So I worked with him forseveral years, ended up really
loving it with him for severalyears, ended up really loving it
.
Uh did well and uh moved toanother company, uh, two years
(55:45):
later with a little betteropportunity and yeah, I mean,
the rest is kind of history, man.
Uh, I still work with that sameguy, mike baldry Baldry.
He kind of took me under hiswing and showed me how to be a
leader, showed me how tocontract, helped me, showed me
how to handle subs and just be agood person, subs and you know,
(56:13):
just just be a good person.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
So that was probably the defining moment there.
So I, I, what I love is thatthere there is a there is a
heavy undertone of forgivenessand redemption that goes through
this entire story, you know allthe way through.
And it's what was his name,david?
(56:38):
What was David's name?
David Martin.
David Martin, it's like thefact that he was like I got you,
like when you get out, likeI've got a job for you, like
there was no condemnation, therewas no judgment.
It was like people makemistakes.
I got you, like you're going toyou, like I've got a job for
you, like there was nocondemnation, there was no
judgment.
It was like people makemistakes.
I got you like you're gonna,you're gonna have a job, and so
getting out and working forsomeone like that, I'm assuming,
especially after experiencing,you know, your time time in jail
(57:03):
and in office, also at the campand whatnot it's like getting
out and having a job probablyfelt like the best thing on the
planet.
Speaker 2 (57:11):
It did it, did it, just took such a load off, and
then having a job that I reallyenjoyed was the biggest part of
it.
Speaker 1 (57:24):
Does David still do that kind of stuff he does?
Speaker 2 (57:27):
He does, he does.
Actually, the funny part aboutit was like he loaned me out to
Baldry for a job that we weredoing together with him and then
Baldry lost a guy and I waslike listen, I can be that guy,
Like we can make this work.
(57:47):
I can be that guy, we can makethis work.
And there's just such a freedomto working for yourself.
Don't have to clock in.
If you need to take time off,you can take it off.
(58:10):
I've met so many cool peopledoing this kind of work and then
, just as I learned and gotbetter in the trade, more
opportunities opened up for me.
I got involved with the propertymanagement group in town, got
involved with an investor herein Nashville and it just I don't
know, man, God opened doorsthat I never thought would ever
(58:32):
be open.
And here's the funny part.
So I told myself while I was inthere, I'm like I'm going to
get my degree.
I got to go back and take thatstupid class.
I love it, Just to you know,spite them, Sure.
So as soon as I got out, Ienrolled back at UTC and I
enrolled in the class and I geta call about a weekend before
(58:58):
class even starts, like after Ienrolled, from my advisor, she's
like hey, you don't have totake that class, you can just
have your degree.
Speaker 1 (59:07):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (59:10):
Yeah, how's that for irony and how's that for a
blessing like that is.
It is a blessing yeah, so Iended up getting my degree on
top of all that.
Speaker 1 (59:23):
Oh, by the way, one of the triggering events that
caused me to just it's like oh,you know that block that you
took out of the Jenga tower.
You didn't have to take thatout, yeah.
Speaker 2 (59:35):
I feel like it's a reward for making the right
choices.
Yeah, when you do what's right,things happen.
Things happen for you when youmake the right choices, when you
make the choices God wants youto make, the hard ones, he opens
(59:58):
the way.
Speaker 1 (59:59):
I like that you said the hard ones, because I think
oftentimes in Christianity it'slike some people, I think, have
a preconceived idea like Godwants me to have.
I think have like apreconceived idea Like God wants
me to have the easy life andthat's not really how that works
.
It's like you sign up forabsolutely the hardest life.
Yeah, you know, to love thepeople that hate you, to pray
(01:00:21):
for the people that are againstyou, and I definitely resonate
with that and I'm glad that youpointed that out.
God does ask us to do hardthings and I don glad that you
pointed that out.
God does ask us to do hardthings and I don't know you very
well, but I'm really proud ofyou and it's really cool to hear
your story.
(01:00:43):
Man, I can't wait because Iwould love to have Rachel on at
some point, absolutely, and hearthat other side of that story.
Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
She's got a whole different perspective on
everything, and a lot hashappened for her and us in the
past few years too.
Yeah, I mean, it's not been allpeaches and cream.
Sure, actually, in 2023, hermom had a stroke.
My and her dad found her, andtwo days later her dad died
(01:01:27):
while her mom was in the ICU.
She was in the ICU for a coupleweeks and they had to tell her
what happened.
Thankfully, she's made a fullrecovery.
She's okay now, good, good.
And then, six weeks after thestroke, though, her brother
(01:01:50):
Mason took his life.
Oh my, so it's been a wild ridethese past few years.
There's been ups and downs, butthat relationship that was able
to be rekindled when Rachelwent back to live with her
parents and she started learningthe tire store paid off because
(01:02:15):
she had to step into that roleat that point?
Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
Yeah, that makes sense.
That's crazy.
So actually, you brought up agood point that I would love to
ask you more about.
When you get out and you arenow back to the normal, or
perceivably normal life ofliving with your family, you now
have your daughter there everyday and your wife.
(01:02:40):
It's like what is that processlike, trying to go from this
life that you have had to adaptto, to try to learn how to get
back into the normalcy of?
Was it a pretty quicktransition, or did it feel
natural?
Or did it take some work?
What is that like?
I always wonder that.
Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
Are you asking about integrating back into tradition?
Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
Yeah, just into what we consider to be a normal life.
Is that difficult?
Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
or is it pretty seamless I don't know, I don't,
I, I have no idea what normal is, because there have been so
many ups and downs, like I, Ithink my normal is like a
mountaintop and a valley.
Um, as far as just getting backinto the groove, walking into a
(01:03:31):
family, it felt very natural.
Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
Good.
Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
And I'll have to say I'm blessed, I'm very lucky to
have the support system that Idid, because a lot of men that
come out of incarceration don'thave anything like that.
They go right back to theneighborhoods that they came out
(01:03:55):
of and there's crime.
Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
It's like all they know.
Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
Yeah, I mean.
The recidivism rate is, I think, between 45% and 55%.
Speaker 1 (01:04:06):
Wow, is it that high?
Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
Yeah, well, it depends on your criminal history
.
Sure, yeah, it's 80, if itdepends on your criminal history
, Sure yeah.
It's 80 if you have a priorcriminal history.
Wow, and a lot of that isopportunity.
I just I can't say I'm notprivileged to have the
opportunities that we've had inthe support system when I came
(01:04:28):
out but it just felt natural, itwas something that I'd been
dreaming about for two years.
So I had all this time tocreate mantras and tell myself
this is the man you want to be,this is the man God wants you to
be, this is the man that yourwife needs you to be and your
(01:04:50):
kids needs you to be Like.
So I created this image and Ijust I'm doing my best to uh,
fulfill it.
Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
Dude that's so powerful and I'd imagine time
moves so slow in thatenvironment and I'd imagine time
moves so slow in thatenvironment.
Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
Dude, dude, I had a book where I would journal and
every day I would write the dateand then I would write next to
it the amount of days and hoursleft.
Wow, just whenever I were tojournal that night night.
There's a lot of time to thinkin there.
There's a lot of time to playguitar in there too.
Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
So do you have your guitar in there.
Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
Um, one of the coolest parts about the rdap
program where I was was we hadour own music room, um, and like
they would elect people to likerun the committees for this.
Committees for that.
It was a requirement of theprogram to be involved in
different committees and I waslucky enough to be nominated and
(01:05:58):
elected to do the music roomthere.
So they gave me a guitarmagazine.
They're like all right, justorder what you want from here
for the music room.
I'm like really.
Speaker 1 (01:06:06):
Wow, that is a blessing right there.
Yeah, all right, so is thatwhere you learned to play, uh?
Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
no, okay, no, that's just where I picked it back up,
because when I when I fell offinto addiction, um, part of
being addicted to a substance isgiving up the things that you
used to love and only focusingon this thing.
(01:06:37):
That is, giving you thefeelings you want without doing
the work to get it.
Speaker 1 (01:06:44):
Oh yeah, I can see that it's more of like a
gratification thing.
It's like ah, this is giving methe reward that I would have
normally gotten from doing allthese other things.
Right, but this is seeminglyeasier.
Speaker 2 (01:06:53):
Right, I mean a lot of people that use uppers
particularly meth, I guess areadrenaline junkies in the first
place.
Are adrenaline junkies in thefirst place and I think
something like only 2%, like 2in 100 people, successfully stop
(01:07:16):
using methamphetamine, but mostof them, after they quit, pick
up something crazy likemotocross or extreme trail
running Something to give themthat bump, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.
And then you know you got cleanfrom all of that while you were
in there.
What was that like?
Because you know you alwayshear and I just want to preface
this first because you know, forcontext, you always hear about
(01:07:50):
people who get clean and howhard it is, but it's like you're
trying to do that also in anenvironment where there is
nothing else.
Like what is that like?
Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
Honestly, it was easy for me.
Yeah, it was, because it was amental change.
It was a choice Like do I wantto live for this?
Do I want to give all of mypower to a drug that has, or any
(01:08:27):
kind of substance that has donenothing but cause hardship in
my life?
Speaker 1 (01:08:31):
yeah do.
Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
I want to give my time to the things that matter,
um, and I gotta, I have to saythat, knowing rachel was
pregnant, um, with somethingthat we created together.
Yeah, that was it for me.
Speaker 1 (01:08:51):
Dude.
That's so profound Because it'sboth sides of it right.
It's the negatives and thepositives that you're looking at
that are both motivating fromdifferent angles.
You've got the positive side,which is your wife and your
child, and then you've got thenegatives motivating you like do
I really want this to keephappening?
The yin and yang wife and yourchild, you know and then you've
got the negatives motivating youLike do I really want this to
(01:09:12):
keep happening?
Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
Like and so the yin and yang.
Speaker 1 (01:09:15):
Yeah, that's interesting.
I've never really thought aboutit like that.
It's like there's hope comingfrom both sides, just in
different formats.
Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
It's all about your choices.
Yeah, what's important?
Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
What's important.
So what would you say tosomebody who is about to
graduate college and has justone no?
Speaker 2 (01:09:37):
I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
I'm kidding, I'm kidding.
No, what would you say tosomebody that may be in a
similar situation?
Like what would be yourencouragement to somebody
legally or addiction wise, orjust maybe there's, maybe they
are at the dosing of meth toreplace?
(01:09:58):
Their riddle in stage like notquite dea knocking on your door,
yet um, that's a really deepquestion.
Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
Uh, I think the simplest answer would be just to
look them in their eyes and sayyou're powerful, you have
everything you need already.
Yeah, it's, it's in you, andjust encourage them to find that
(01:10:33):
power and feed it.
Speaker 1 (01:10:36):
Yeah, and if you're listening right now, guys, and
this is for real, like if you'relistening right now and you've
got like some form of secretaddiction in your life, please
don't keep going.
Think about your spouse, thinkabout your family, think about
your children, think about yourcareer, think about your spouse,
think about your family, thinkabout your children, think about
your career, think about yourlife ahead, get get help.
(01:10:56):
Yes, there is going to beprobably a deep level of shame
to in admitting that, but I feellike keep, keep going, and the
pain that you create foryourself and those around you is
far worse than the pain thatyou feel from admitting you've
got a problem.
Speaker 2 (01:11:14):
Yeah, pride, before a fall.
Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
Yeah, and I can tell you, just sitting in front of
Ian right now you guys can't seehis face and I can just tell
you the passion this guy has forhis family is so good and he
cares, and I can tell he doesn'twant anybody to go through this
.
It's miserable.
Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
Find someone, someone to listen.
Tell someone what you're goingthrough.
Don't try to handle it all onyour own.
Reach out.
There are people that want tohelp you.
Speaker 1 (01:11:58):
That's true.
That's 100% true.
I know that there are peoplethat devote their life to
helping people like this, yeah,in this specific situation.
Okay, so let's take a deepbreath.
That was a lot.
Tell me about Ian, ale andRachel and the family now.
(01:12:18):
Like, tell me about what areyou guys into now?
What's, what's on the horizon?
Speaker 2 (01:12:26):
We are as busy as we could possibly be.
Uh, rachel's rachel runs thetire store middle valley.
Speaker 1 (01:12:34):
Tire and alignment there we go, throw it out there.
Man, give us the website.
What's the middle?
Speaker 2 (01:12:38):
valley tire and alignment.
Middle valley road hicks intennessee uh best prices in town
there you go um, she also, Um,she also is the office manager
at Cleveland City Ballet.
Uh, in Cleveland, obviously,and that's where our daughter
(01:12:59):
takes dance.
Um, so our week is filled withdance classes, gymnastics work.
I work during the days and somenights it's a heavy grind.
And then on Saturdays we havedadder day.
Speaker 1 (01:13:17):
Yeah, there you go, dadder day.
Stole that phrase.
Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
Not stolen, it's like I'm happy to pass the torch On
the weekends.
We just try to hang out and bewith each other because, like I
said earlier, time you only getit once and then it's gone.
So we just try to spend timetogether, enjoy each other's
presence.
Even if we're just sitting in aroom not talking, we're there
(01:13:48):
together.
That was the hardest part aboutincarceration just not being
able to touch the people youlove.
Speaker 1 (01:13:57):
Dude, I know I can't speak for you, but I know for
myself.
As soon as I got out there,dude, I would literally not stop
touching my wife and children,Like I would be so happy to just
like be close to them.
It would be like I want to sitnext to them, Even when I go on
little trips out of town, whichdon't even compare, not even
slightly.
It's like I get home and I justwant to be close to everybody.
(01:14:21):
Dude, that's so cool.
It's super cool.
We need to get our familiestogether.
Speaker 2 (01:14:28):
The whole time while you're talking.
Speaker 1 (01:14:29):
It's like you're over here telling me about your
problems with meth and DEA andI'm like we should get our
families together.
Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
It's wild.
I feel like it's a dream when Ilook back on it.
It doesn't even feel like it'sa part of me, but it is such a
big part of my story.
I had to go through that Istory.
I had to go through that.
I hate that I had to go throughthat, but I did, and it was all
(01:14:57):
for a reason.
Speaker 1 (01:14:59):
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:15:00):
There's so much more to be had in life.
Speaker 1 (01:15:02):
All right.
What's the five-year plan?
What's the goal five years fromnow?
Where do you want to seeyourself being so?
When you listen back on thisepisode, you go oh my gosh, I
did it.
Speaker 2 (01:15:13):
Headlining Bonnaroo.
Speaker 1 (01:15:15):
Yeah, there you go, there you go With your guitar.
Speaker 2 (01:15:20):
Yeah, there we go.
You know, five years from now,I just want to be with my family
.
That's cool.
We could be anywhere togetherTraveling somewhere or just
sitting in a room with my family.
That's cool.
We could be anywhere togethertraveling somewhere or just
sitting in a room.
Speaker 1 (01:15:35):
That's cool.
Yeah, five years from now,you'll have a 12-year-old and a
22-year-old.
Think about that.
That's wild.
That is crazy.
That's wild.
That is so crazy.
Oh, five years from now, weshould say happy birthday to
your oldest, because it'll beyour birthday again.
Happy 22nd birthday.
(01:15:58):
Wow, that's funny.
Well, I don't want to keep youany longer, any longer, and, man
, I really genuinely appreciateyou coming in and taking the
time to share your story and allthe crazy details that come
with it.
Thank you for your encouragingmessage to those who may be in a
(01:16:20):
similar situation.
And if somebody wanted to reachout to you, is there a social
media or something?
Some way they can do that?
Speaker 2 (01:16:34):
Yeah, I'm on.
Speaker 1 (01:16:35):
Facebook.
Okay, how do they find you onFacebook?
Ian Aile.
Speaker 2 (01:16:37):
I-A-I-N-A-I-L-E, A-L-E easiest name ever.
Speaker 1 (01:16:39):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (01:16:40):
Yeah last name first, first name last.
Dude, you have more vowels inyour name than consonants.
My parents tried to make iteasy on me.
Speaker 1 (01:16:51):
What's your middle name?
Speaker 2 (01:16:53):
Taylor.
Speaker 1 (01:16:54):
Taylor T-A-Y-L.
Yeah, I think you're even right, even with vowels and
consonants.
That's awesome, ian, thank youso much.
I literally can't say thanksenough.
Guys, thank you for listening.
Please go and check out allthese incredible stories.
These guys, they're notcelebrities, they're not, you
(01:17:14):
know, famous people.
They're people with realstories, just like you listening
, and if you have a story thatyou'd like to share, please
comment, hit us up.
We'd love to hear from you.
And thank you guys so much forsupporting what we do.
We're just real men sharingreal stories, trying to
encourage each other.
So, ian, thank you, brother, Iappreciate you.
(01:17:36):
Let's go grab some lunch.
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