July 21, 2025 • 47 mins
What happens when two passionate Jewish educators decide to reimagine what a Jewish day school could be? Adam Hyman and Eleanor Hasenfratz are bringing a radical new vision to Melbourne's Jewish community with Beit Hillel Community School, set to open in 2026. They caught up with Tami and Dash (both parents of kids in prep) to discuss their vision and why they think Melbourne's Jewish community is ready for this unique model of education.
Article related to this conversation:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/an-alternative-jewish-school-for-melbourne
More information about the school:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Did you graduate from Jewish school over a decade ago
but still have vivid memoriesof a teacher telling you that
you should be ashamed ofyourself for misbehaving in
class?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Or are you just interested in Jewish day schools
, how they're created fromconception to grand opening day
schools, how they're createdfrom conception to grand opening
.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
If you answered yes to one or more of those
questions, then you've come tothe right place.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I'm Dash Lawrence from the Jewish Independent and
in today's episode, your thirdcousin, Tammy Sussman, and I
will be talking to two Jewisheducators from Melbourne,
Australia, who are reimaginingwhat Jewish schooling can look
like, blending alternativeeducation with deep cultural
connection, through their boldnew project, Beit Hillel
(00:54):
Community School.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Who knows if they'll be ashamed to admit anything.
It's season three of thisJewish Independent podcast and
we seem to be dropping our shame.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Some of us more than others, Tammy.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Come along for the ride, as we have a go at cutting
through some seriously chewyand dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Welcome to this week's episode of A Shame to
Admit.
Welcome back, I'm Dash Lawrence, executive Director here at the
Jewish Independent and, as oflast month, secretary of Hamble
(01:36):
Victoria.
Tammy, did you slot that in atthe last minute?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I am the person who inserted that tidbit into
today's script Tammy Sussman.
Person who inserted that tidbitinto today's script, tammy
Sussman.
I'm also the person who needsto know why a primary school
playground game needs its owngoverning body.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Okay, European handball Tammy.
It's different to the type ofhandball you're thinking of, the
type of handball that's alsoknown as four square.
I think that's what you'rethinking of, the type of
handball that's also known asfour square.
I think that's what you'rethinking of.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
That is where there's king, queen jack dunce.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Dunce, yes, the game where the ball is hit against
the wall with the hand commonlyplayed in Australia, new Zealand
and other primary schools inanglophonic countries.
Yeah, so European handball is acompletely different game,
tammy, okay.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Is that what they play in primary schools in
Europe?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Probably more likely to.
Yeah, it's actually an Olympicsport, Tammy.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Is it a game that you double in yourself?
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Look, I have played a little bit of handball the
European handball from time totime, but no, it's not a game
that I've played much of.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Okay, so then, why are you secretary of handball
Victoria?
Like what and why and how?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Look, the game is on an upward trajectory.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Tammy, I'm not interested in the game I'm
interested in, like why is therea governing body and why are
you the secretary?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Australia is going to be fielding a team at the 2032
Olympic Games in Brisbane.
It'll be the first time thatAustralia will have done that
since we last did it at theSydney Games in 2000.
And it's an exciting moment.
I was excited about theprospect of supporting the
growth of European handball inVictoria.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
So you reached out to them and said do you need a
secretary, or did they poach youDid?
They just happen to belisteners of this show and they
thought you know who'd be areally great secretary, so they
called you.
Is that what happened?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Something like that.
You mentioned school earlier,and I think that's really the
nub of today's conversation,isn't it?
Because this week, as youforeshadowed at the front of our
episode, we are talking allabout Jewish education and a
radical, bold, courageousinitiative that is about to be
(04:08):
launched next year, beit HillelCommunity School.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
That is a beautiful deflection from your own
nerdiness and a beautiful segueinto today's episode Shkoyach
Dash.
You're absolutely right,because today our listeners will
be hearing our interview withAdam Hyman and Eleanor
(04:32):
Hasenfratz, two Melbourne-basedJewish educators and co-founders
of Beit Hillel Community School.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Drawing on their diverse experience in both
mainstream and Jewish education.
Drawing on their diverseexperience in both mainstream
and Jewish education, adam andEleanor have decided to create a
pedagogy-first model thatblends academic rigor with
creativity, nature and inclusiveJewish life.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Now, if you don't know what the word pedagogy
means, don't be ashamed.
I also don't know Dash.
Can you enlighten me?
Because the words used a lotthroughout the interview, around
six times, and I smiled and Inodded every time it was said
and I do not know what it means.
(05:19):
I thought it had something todo with dinosaurs.
That's paleontology.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
It's like the principles or the theory that
underpins the approach toteaching and education.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
It's very different to paleontology, which I've now
confirmed.
That relates to the scientificstudy of the history of life on
Earth through the examination ofplant and animal fossils.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Adam and Eleanor, welcome to A Shame to Admit.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Thank you.
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Now you guys are building a school not around a
motto or a mission statement,but a question, an intriguing
question at that.
The question is are we raisingjoyous, wise and courageous
children?
Firstly, why the question?
And do you have an answer toyour own question?
Speaker 4 (06:24):
I think it's really important that when we prompt
people to think about parenting,education and how we raise
young people, we do that with aprompt, not just a hook of some
sort, because really it startswith self-reflection.
It starts with what are thethings that we ourselves value
in our own lives?
And the prompt is how do weinculcate that in young children
(06:48):
?
And I think those three virtuesof wisdom, courage and joy are
really the, for me, the primevirtues in how we face the world
.
Life is challenging and we needcourage to address those
challenges, to find our ownstrength and our strength in
community.
But also, life is wonderful andit's joyous and we need
(07:09):
optimism and we need a stature,a posture towards the world that
is good, that we can be good,that we can do good and that we
can find the humour and just thejoy and optimism in everything.
And schools are like education,and education is the bedrock of
what and education is thebedrock of what schools are
about and the bedrock ofparenting.
But one step above educationand knowledge is wisdom, and we
(07:35):
need to recognise that knowledgeis really only as good as when
it gets us to the point ofwisdom.
So I guess that's why I wasreally drawn to those three
virtues and it gets us to thepoint of wisdom.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
So I guess that's why I was really drawn to those
three virtues.
They make sense to me and it'sfunny every time we sit down
together I sort of glean youknow different things from
having this conversation thateducation and the Jewish
community are a match made inheaven.
It's everyone's favoritepastime to talk about our
schools and they are amazing,amazing schools.
And I think as soon as you hita certain age, or if you have
children like basically fromwhen they're in utero you start
(08:09):
thinking about which school arethey going to and what can we
afford and what about this?
And he went to Scopus, but Iwent here and I don't know and
I'm not sure.
And the buses, and it's just.
You know there's a, and I'm surein Sydney as well, there's a
whole long, gloriousconversation that you have at
parks and simchas and familyshoves, dinners, about which
school and what kind of school,and all of those schools have
amazing benefits and some ofthem have drawbacks, depending
(08:31):
on who you are and what you wantout of the school.
But they all currently exist andtherefore they have those pros
and cons.
And so we're in this kind ofamazing position of we're going
to start one from the verybeginning.
I heard another amazingeducator, john Marsden, who was
an author and founded a schoolwith a similar philosophy, say
(08:51):
you know, after many decades ofteaching, I saw terrible things
and wonderful things, and Ithought what if I take all the
wonderful things and leave outall the terrible things, maybe
that will lead to a really goodschool?
And his school is really good.
And so I think we're comingfrom a similar kind of position,
except we're doing it withinthe Jewish community, where you
know, our schools are what's thephrase that we tend to use?
(09:12):
The shining jewels of ourcommunity.
I think that's a phrase peopleuse, and they really are, and
there's some amazing thingsabout them, but we want to do
something different that doesn'tcurrently exist in our Jewish
community.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
And so we're thinking from really the ground up.
What are the values we want toinstill?
When I heard the name of yourschool, I was thinking what a
lost opportunity to not name aschool after a female.
We have all these kings, kingDavid, we have these mountains
why not Queen Esther School?
Tell us about the process youwent through in choosing the
name Beit Hillel, because forthose of our listeners who might
(09:51):
not know the reference, hillelwas a pretty important person.
And what does that choice sayabout the kind of Jewish
education that you're trying tocreate?
Speaker 4 (10:04):
I always felt like schools should have names that
mean something to the students.
Tell me, like you, I went toMount Sinai College in Sydney
and I love the name Mount Sinai,and our school song really
reflected the values behind thatname.
Not only was it a place of thegiving of the Torah, but also
there's that gorgeous midrashwhere all the different
(10:24):
mountains are calling out sayinggive the Torah on me, give the
Torah on me.
And the tallest mountain wasrejected because it was arrogant
.
And the strongest mountain, thewidest mountain, they were all
rejected.
But Mount Sinai was a smallmountain and it was its humility
that inculcated the values ofwhat having the Torah on it,
given on it, is about, and thatalways meant something to me
(10:46):
that a mountain and it wasn't avalley, it was a mountain and
nonetheless had stature, but itwas a humble mountain.
As a child, that always meantsomething to me and I still
clearly carry that lesson withinme today.
So I really wanted to make surethat our school had a name that
meant something to the students,and when I thought about what
(11:07):
sort of teachings we have in ourtradition that are both rich
and deep but also veryaccessible, I kept landing on
all the teachings and all thestories about Hillel the Elder,
hillel Hazaken, and there'sthree or four that kind of jump
out at me that are all aboutpeace and fraternity and
patience and wisdom.
(11:28):
I'm thinking first of all ofthe story where the convert
comes to Hillel after beingrejected by other rabbis.
He comes to Hillel and he sayscan you teach me the whole of
Torah?
While I stand on one foot andHillel says to him sure, all of
Torah is don't do to others whatis hateful to yourself.
That's the whole of Torah.
Everything else is a teaching,a commentary on that.
(11:50):
Now, come inside and learn, andit's about patience, it's about
acceptance, it's aboutcompassion, it's about tolerance
, but it's also about now, comeand join us, be part of the
community and keep learningfurther.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
So, Eleanor, did you put forward the Queen Esther
School?
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Yeah well, I'm ashamed to admit that I did not
put forward the name of QueenEsther, but perhaps that might
be in your future, Tammy, thatyou're going to start a school,
maybe like a martial arts schoolfor Jewish girls, called the
Queen Esther Academy ofJiu-Jitsu or something like that
.
That would be so great.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, but it would be Krav Maga.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
It would be Krav Maga .
You know it would bemultidisciplinary, I think.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
But it would have been a perfect name because
Queen Esther is that characterand I think she's probably the
strongest example of it inTanakh, who really finds her
courage.
For the first half of MegillatEsther she's a totally passive
character and you have almostthe exact middle.
Pasuk is when she has thattotal turnaround and realises if
she doesn't speak up nothing'sgoing to happen.
(12:54):
And when she goes to achashverosh it's the first time
she actually speaks in the wholeMegillat and her whole
character turns around in amoment.
So it's a gorgeous name Ihighly recommend it.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
I get paid to consult on projects like this.
So I've just we're having arebrand and you just got that
for free.
I think that's what's happeningnow.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Okay, let's dig a little bit more into the
philosophy of Bait Halal andwhat you're proposing to
establish.
So you have described thephilosophy as both old school
and new and out of the box, andyou're promoting rigorous
back-to-basics literacy andnumeracy, alongside lots of
(13:35):
outdoor and nature play.
Tell us about how it's possibleto reconcile what appears to be
two kind of competingeducational principles, of both
being old school and traditionalapproach to the fundamentals of
pedagogy and also, I guess, amore flexible notion of
(14:00):
education for children.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
We have kept that deliberately confusing to prompt
people to ask more questions.
It's like a little mini PesachSeder that we're running by.
being slightly strange, peopleare like hang on a minute what
and we're like, we're so gladyou asked, let me tell you about
it.
So I think a good way to startis by telling you a little bit
more about what day-to-day lifeactually looks like or will look
(14:24):
like at Bayt Hill, and alsosharing that there are some
schools that exist on the samekind of framework that we've
been inspired by.
So it's not just Adam andEleanor, you know, sitting in a
living room one show thisafternoon being like what's the
weirdest thing we can think ofdoing.
I know, let's start a school,let's make some stuff up right
now.
So these things do currentlyexist, and in schools that
(14:45):
receive very, very high results,kind of academically speaking
and also in terms of thechildren and students that they
produce is kind of the wrongword, but the students and
children who go there do tend tobe, you know, competent,
well-rounded, confident in theworld, knowing themselves and
how to learn, which we think isreally admirable.
So I'll tell you a little bitmore about what the day-to-day
(15:06):
looks like and some of the keydifferences between Bay Hillel
and a mainstream school setting,which is what we have all
experienced.
I presume One of the maindifferences is there's a really
big focus on mixed age groups sothat sometimes in a normal
school you might have like abuddies program where the preps
and the year sixes might hangout once a week and do like a
coloring activity together orlike sometimes that's done
(15:28):
really well and those kids havea genuine connection.
Vast majority of the time that'susually a reasonably tokenistic
thing to do.
Maybe only happens in term oneand two and those kids don't
become really friends.
They don't really have a strongconnection and, speaking from
experience as a grade six orprep teacher, it's usually the
first lesson to get ditched Ifthe grade sixes are behind in
their persuasive texts or thereare nits in the prep classroom
(15:49):
or something the teachers willbe like let's not do that this
week, let's come back to it, andso it isn't really prioritised.
Those relationships aren'tprioritised and kids are
generally in their year levelage groupings and that is who
they are friends with and that'swhat they hang out with and
that's what they learn with, whothey are friends with and
that's what they hang out withand that's what they learn with.
So at Beit Hillel we're kind ofbusting that wide open, which
(16:11):
is that two days a week kidswill be in mixed age groups.
At other schools they call themtribes.
Adam and I both actuallyteaching at a school which uses
this model, and when I'mteaching art and drama I will
have tribes come into myclassroom, which means it'll be
the wombats first and there areabout 10 kids in that year level
in that group and it'll be liketwo preps, two grade ones, one
grade two, a couple of gradethrees, two grade fours, you
know, so on and so forth, sothere'll be a full mixing and
(16:32):
those kids are together in thatgroup two days a week in all of
their classes.
Usually they'll be in their ownage group for maths and English
, but for art and science anddrama and for us Jewish studies
and tefillah and outdoor timeand sport and all these kinds of
non-core learning, you know,reading, writing, arithmetic,
that sort of thing.
(16:53):
They're in mixed age groups.
And I have been just to take atiny step back and tell you
about how I got involved in thisproject.
So Adam has been wanting to dothis for 10 years.
He visited a school like thisfor his teaching rounds and he
was like, oh my God, thisdoesn't exist in the Jewish
community and this needs toexist and this is fundamentally
different to what's on offer andhe's been talking to me about
(17:15):
it for about six years and I'llbe like that's nice, dear, that
sounds good for you, go forthand work on your project.
And for about three years he'sbeen asking me to be involved
and I have wanted to support himas a fellow educator.
I think it's really admirable,but I've basically been like
that sounds really hard, I don'twant to get involved in that.
And then at the start of thisyear I happened to start working
(17:37):
at the same school as Adam,without him even realising the
school we work at is calledFitzroy Community School.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
The school we work at is called Fitzroy Community
School and it's where I did myteaching rounds when I was
studying, and I've gone back andworked there a few times since.
Sort of by coincidence, we'reboth working there together at
the moment.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Also the school that inspired John Marsden to start
his school, and a few otherschools have started, based on
working at Fitzroy.
So within about two weeks of meworking at Fitzroy I was like,
okay, I get it, I'm in, I'm allin, let's do this.
So one of the things thatreally changed my mind was this
mixed age group.
So at first I was like I'm amainstream primary school
(18:12):
teacher.
I was like how is this going towork?
How am I meant to teach a classfor kids who are five and 12 at
the same time?
I can't possibly understand howthat's going to work.
And yet it does incredibly welland the benefit that you get
from that is incredibly highbehavioral norms and incredibly
high levels of just inherentleadership and care and
understanding that kids can befriends outside of their
(18:35):
calendar year age grouping andthey actually gain a lot from
that.
So I think in my first day Iwas noticing what was it like?
A grade four boy, withoutanyone needing to ask him to do
anything, noticed that a prephad his shoelaces undone and
went and tied his shoelaces forhim and honestly, like it's a
(18:56):
sad state that that is somind-blowing to me.
But it was mind-blowing to meand I think any teachers
listening would be like, yeah,that's weird, like you don't
often see that in other schools,and so that was incredible
Watching kids at lunchtimes.
We all eat together every day.
The school provides all of thefood and the kids line up and
get their food and they makesure that their tinies you know
(19:17):
their sort of preps, who they'relooking after have had food as
well, and then everyone justkind of hangs out and sits down
to eat together in a non kind offormal setting.
There's a big table where theteachers sit and sometimes kids
will be doing origami or doingthe quiz with us and hanging out
.
And I remember looking out thewindow and seeing a prep, a
grade two and a grade sixgenuinely sitting down and
(19:38):
eating lunch together and, Ithink, playing some really
complicated card game orsomething, and I was like what
is happening?
I don't understand, you wouldnot see this.
You just would not say this atanother school.
So the mixed age is reallybringing this idea of that.
The school is an extension ofthe family home and that is made
possible by the size of theschool.
So this is not going to.
We have no plans for worlddomination.
(19:59):
This school is going to be 50,maybe 60 kids, so approximately
10-ish per year level, and thatmakes those friendships and
relationships possible.
So another thing I saw in myfirst week was there was a year
level that I was teaching formaths and there were, I think,
grade twos and there were twogirls and seven or eight boys,
and very rambunctious boys aswell.
(20:21):
And I asked the girls, I said,how is it for you being the only
girls in this class?
They as well.
And I asked the girls I said,how is it for you being the only
girls in this class?
They're like, yeah, it's fine,because we also are in tribes
half the week and it's just nota problem.
So they actually have thesocial capacity is the entire
school.
Then no one is kind of trapped.
And I know that that can be aconcern in other schools where
it particularly if it's a smallclass that's your friendship
(20:42):
group and if you don't succeedin that friendship group you're
going to have a pretty terribleyear.
And I know even you know fromschools in our community being a
small school can be challenging.
But I think the fact that theyreally enhance mixed age group
friendships and learningtogether just makes a lot of
things possible.
So that's one primarydifference.
Another primary difference aboutthis school is that there is a
(21:03):
particular teacher for everysingle subject, sort of like in
a high school.
For maths, you go to the mathsteacher in the maths room.
For English, you go to theEnglish teacher in the English
room, so on and so forth, andthe kids move around the school
by themselves.
Every day They'll go throughthe kitchen to just check the
timetable and then they'll allcall out tinies, have English,
and they'll, all you know,toddle off to the English room.
(21:24):
As opposed to in a mainstreamschool where if I had a
specialist teacher for artperhaps I would need to walk my
kids in a blob or two straightlines whatever I could achieve
and walk them in and kind ofhand them over, and there was a
very high level of supervisionand a very low level of trust.
I would never send my gradethrees off to walk to the art
room by themselves, whereas atthe school we're teaching at,
(21:45):
that's just very possible to do.
No one is going to get lost andno one's really going to get
out to mischief because everyoneis generally on track as well.
So it also means and I'm sureyou've been through this
experience, or you worry aboutit for your own children, that
if you're starting grade one andyou don't like the grade one
teacher or your child doesn'tlike the grade one teacher one
(22:05):
and you don't like the grade oneteacher, or your child doesn't
like the grade one teacher, orGod forbid, you get the sense
the teacher doesn't like yourchild, which can happen.
I mean, and you know, teachersare wonderful, but it's very
intense to be with one adult forevery single subject for an
entire year and it can be hit ormiss and that can lead to
wonderful deep connections andfriendships and love for that
teacher and then be hard toleave them, or it can be really
(22:26):
hard for an entire year to bewith a personality that you just
clash with.
What I think is reallybeautiful about this model is
that the kids at the schoolwe're working at at Fitzroy have
a really strong connection withmaybe 10 different adults and
it really does feel like afamily.
It really feels like everyone'sa kind of auntie or uncle.
They can call on anybody, andso those were two of the kind of
(22:48):
key reasons that make thisschool model different that I
was like yeah, I'm totally in.
This makes complete sense to me.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
It sounds to me like that will be better for the
teachers as well.
I often think about theteachers just as an example.
My daughter in the UK has quite, quite a challenging class and
I think about that teacher withthem for the whole year and I'm
worried about her burning out.
So yeah, sounds great from thatperspective as well.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
I would mention that because usually when we talk
about the school, we're talkingto prospective parents and so
I'm not really talking about thebenefits to teachers.
But really our experience ofworking at Fitzroy Community
School is hugely beneficial toteachers for precisely the
reasons you say.
There's so much less burnoutand because you're focused on a
specific academic subject ratherthan the whole entire
(23:40):
curriculum.
You're much more focused, youdevelop more expertise in your
area.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, less overwhelm.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
But that also benefits the kids, because when
a teacher's not burnt out, theycan be more present and have
more energy to give and you alsocan teach the subjects that you
yourself are more passionateabout, that you're better at
teaching.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
There's nothing worse than having a teacher who's a
wonderful English teacher but aterrible maths teacher who's not
teaching maths half the day.
It's not helpful for the kids.
It's not helpful for theteachers.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
I'm getting quite excited about this school.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
I'm interested in the model and I know that what you
are talking about in the case ofFitzroy has been very well
established.
Now there is a cohort, there isa community out there that
wants that form of education.
I'm just wondering is theMelbourne Jewish community,
(24:34):
which has particular ideas aboutwhat education should be and
particular ideas about the waythat classes should be run,
going to be primed and ready forwhat is quite a unorthodox
approach to education?
Speaker 4 (24:53):
Really keen to address that.
I want to just make sure Ispell out sort of the kind of
four or five ways that theschool is a different model of
schooling and then I want totell you a bit more about the
philosophy which I think linksto your question.
So the idea is that this willbe a consciously and
intentionally small school whenschools get big.
(25:13):
There's this concept inanthropology I forget what the
name of it is, but Dunbar'snumber or something that
communities tend to coalescearound a certain number of
people.
I think in the research it'sabout 150 people.
As big as a community or atribe gets before people stop
knowing each other.
I went to Mount Sinai and when Iwas at Mount Sinai I was the
(25:33):
last year level to be singlestreamed.
So after me every single yearlevel was double streamed and
then became triple streamed andit's no knock on the school at
all.
Schools are complicated placesthat have lots of different
needs they have to address andthey have to meet the community
where it's at All of that istrue.
But I noticed when I was in UKI think they call it in Sydney
prep in Melbourne I kneweveryone at the school and I
(25:54):
knew most of the parents at theschool and by the time I got to
year six, when the school haddoubled in size, all of that had
been lost.
Frankly, a small school canreally hold its culture together
and can really develop adifferent kind of culture, in
the same way that, as adults,people are drawn to different
kinds of workplaces.
Some people want large, youknow kind of big multinational
conglomerate organizations theywant to work for, and some
(26:16):
people want to work for small,boutique organizations.
They bring something differentto the picture.
The school will provide foodevery day so that everyone eats
and because food is more thanjust nourishment.
It's nourishment of the soul.
It's how communities connectwith each other.
All communities across all timeconnect over food.
Ironically, school is the oneexample of a place where people
don't connect over food, becausekids are not allowed to share
(26:36):
food in primary schools.
And what's become the norm inprimary schools?
You guys may not know this, butwhat's become the norm in
primary schools is kids sit inthe classroom, take out their
lunchbox, sit at their desk andeat, while the teacher very,
very often puts a video on thesmart board or the projector in
the classroom.
And I can see your face.
Yeah, I can see your wide eyesthere it's not a knock on
(26:58):
teachers.
It's not a knock on schools.
It's the nature of the culturethat has come into schools, the
overwhelm on teachers and,frankly, also the very poor
behavioural norms at mostschools.
It's really hard to manage kidsin a classroom when they have
quote-unquote free time.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Sometimes you've just got to put on Mr Bean so that
you know you can deal with theissues that have occurred in the
last lesson, or you can makesure that the kids who maybe
aren't getting enough food athome are actually eating their
lunch, or the kids you'reworried about maybe having
disordered eating are eatingtheir food Like it's a very we
understand allergies the wholething.
We understand what happens, butit's become this really quite
strange culture and it becomesnormal.
(27:37):
And then you have the sort ofslightly addicted children who
expect that all of the time andthat's the way to sort of calm
them down and make sure thatthey eat and it's just, it's
weird and unnatural.
But we sit down and you knowthey're eating in front of a
screen and it's kind of sterileand again it's like a lack of
trust in the kids.
But it's a.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
It's a bigger picture than just that teacher and just
that classroom so that toucheson two things first of all, is
everyone will eat food togetherevery day, a provided lunch, so
that it addresses the issue ofcontrol, it addresses the issues
of allergies, of kids sharingfood, everyone sitting to eat a
meal together, and it alsotouches on the idea of
technology.
(28:14):
This will be an absolute minimumtech school, perhaps even a
zero tech school.
At the school we teach at, Iteach science as well as maths,
and when I want to show the kidsa video in science class which
is really the only time there'sany tech really I whip it out on
my phone and the kids huddlearound and we watch a little
video about, you know, marineanimals or something, and it's
usually a five minute clip andthat's all it is.
But in a small class you canreally do that with kids
(28:35):
gathering around.
But we don't need all thisextra iPad time.
We don't need Kids run devicesa lot at school and frankly, I
don't know what benefit they'readding.
I really don't.
The only other piece perhaps isfour days a week will be
regular academic classes, andone day a week will be what
we're calling workshopWednesdays, which is our time to
have excursions, time in nature, intergenerational community
(28:58):
experiences, which meansvisiting old age homes in the
community and participating inthose sorts of events, bringing
guest speakers and doing kind ofcreative arts workshops,
science workshops, those sortsof things, and also just walking
kids to the local playgroundand letting them play.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
And catching trams and being out in the world.
Speaker 4 (29:16):
Yeah, yeah yeah.
And buying a Slurpee on the wayback to school.
So with all that let me kind oftouch on the philosophy which I
think comes back to yourquestion, dash.
So there's this idea inpedagogy studies of something
called the hidden curriculum,the curriculum we're all
familiar with.
The curriculum sets out mathsexpectations, literacy
expectations, what to learn inscience.
(29:37):
The hidden curriculum is thisconcept that in a school
environment we're teaching allsorts of other things that are
often not measurable and notexplicitly defined what we
should be doing, and that'sabout the school culture.
It's about what sort ofuniforms are kids wearing.
At Bay Hill there won't be auniform, and I think that
teaches kids independence.
(29:58):
I think it's also moreaffordable for families.
I think it also means that ifit's a muddy day and we're going
and playing soccer and there'smud on the ground, you're not
worried about your uniformgetting dirty and you don't have
this mad dash the night beforeschool of washing and putting
things in a dry.
So you've got enough uniforms,like it's no big deal.
The clothes you bought from anart shop will get muddy.
It's fine.
That hidden curriculum is alsothat all this group of adults
(30:21):
around you are all there to lookout for you and you know all of
them.
There's all these ideas that wecould talk about.
It could be a whole podcast inand of itself.
The hidden curriculum is thisconcept of all the things that
create a culture and learningenvironment, and taking the
hidden curriculum seriouslymeans building it into the
school from the beginning.
Your question was about anunorthodox education in the
(30:43):
Jewish community.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
I think what is underneath that question is
really about trust, because Ithink that what is something
special about the Fitzroy modelfrom a parent's perspective is
that it requires a high level oftrust from parents in the
school to educate their children.
When we think about the Jewishcommunity, as maybe parents who
are a little bit more anxiousand have like a very high level
(31:05):
of oversight into their kids'education and the way that
Fitzroy kind of words that is,that it's like a temporary
three-way marriage and allparties need to be on board and
willing to work together andhave goodwill and not be kind of
looking for the holes and havea lack of trust in the school.
Because as soon as you have alack of trust in the school, lo
and behold, there'll be thingsthat we'll be unhappy with.
(31:26):
So I think that is a particularchallenge in establishing any
school from scratch and inbringing on any cohort of
parents.
And I think in the Jewishcommunity we'll have our own
particular challenges based onwhat we're used to and how
schools generally operate.
And we do really encourageparents to come and visit
Fitzroy because I think once yousee it in real life you're like
, oh right, it's a school.
(31:47):
It feels radically different.
Kids are not in uniform, thereare kids who are not in class
for some reason.
What's going on there?
But then you realize, oh,they're all actually saying
thank you to the teacher at theend of the lesson and they're
sitting down to eat together andno one's throwing anything.
And kids are not generallyneeding lots and lots of extra
support because of theenvironment that they're in.
We care deeply about our kids'education, and I think there are
(32:10):
a lot of people who are lookingfor something else and looking
for something more robust andkind of simple, and I think that
that's something that BaitHillel is going to provide, and
that they are looking for anenvironment like this where they
can put their trust in theschool and know that their kids
are going to get the kind ofnon-cookie cutter approach where
they can be, you know, realcompetent people in the world by
(32:32):
the time they leave school, andif they get excellent accolade
results along the way, that'swonderful as well.
So we've had about 70-ishfamilies come through our
information sessions so far.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Well, it's about to be 80 after I convince all of.
I won't even need to convincemy people because we're having
the same conversations, but Iknow one of the questions
they're going to ask me and thatis how much does the school
cost Precisely?
How can you make it a publicschool is what I want to know.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
That's a really good question and something that will
take a lot of lobbying to thegovernment to change the way we
fund schools in our country.
The reality is that any schoolthat wants to do something a bit
different whether it's aparticular cultural group,
particular pedagogy, afaith-based school basically
needs to run as an independentschool.
In Australia, independent isthe same as a private school.
(33:25):
That means it's fundeddifferently and there's tuition
to be paid.
So we are very, very consciousof affordability.
I know the challenge schoolaffordability had for my parents
when I was growing up and Iknow the pressure that put on
our family and we're very, veryconscious of that for parents
today.
The school fees will be amongstthe lowest of the Jewish
(33:48):
schools in Melbourne.
It's worth having a look at thewebsite Schedule.
Fees will be up there soon andthey'll be not outside the
ballpark of similar schools inthe area, but they will be on
the lower end, and fees willalso include all food, which
also includes not having to makelunches of an age which I think
(34:09):
is huge.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
That in and of itself has us sending our kids there
for sure.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
But the other piece I want to add is I love the
Jewish schools in Australia.
I really, really have no badthoughts about any of them and
I've taught at almost all ofthem.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
All of them, every single one?
Or are you being diplomatic?
Speaker 4 (34:28):
No, I think our schools are excellent.
I really do, I really dobelieve that.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Some of them are kooky.
You know, Adam really hastaught at almost all of the
Jewish schools.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
No, no, I've taught at half the Haredi schools in
Melbourne.
Like, haredi schools are adifferent genre of school.
Yes, I feel the same all overthe world.
They're a bit kooky.
No, really, I've taught atalmost all the Jewish schools in
Melbourne.
They are the jewel of ourcommunity.
They are successful on so manylevels and all the schools in
our community provide a wholelot of an amazing amount of
(35:00):
financial support for parents.
The school in Melbourne thatprovides the least amount of
financial support is stillproviding assistance to at least
a quarter of the students, andsome of the schools are
providing up to 80% of familieswith support.
So I guess what I'm saying is Idon't want to lead with like
come to this school because it'scheaper, I think it will be,
but if you're coming to theschool because it's cheaper, I
(35:20):
don't think you're the rightperson for the school.
If, if you're interested inbeta L, come to a parent
information session, start theconversation.
We'll find a way to make thefinances work and the starting
point will be lower than theother schools.
If finances are a problem,please come and talk to us.
We can find a way to make itwork.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
If it's the same every year, they won't go up.
So it'll cost the same thingfor prep as it will for year six
.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
We've talked a lot about the school's broader
philosophies, but we've almostnot at all touched on what makes
the school other than its nameJewish.
So I'm curious about how youare approaching the Jewish
element of the school, be itthrough Judaism, through the
languages that the studentsmight be learning.
(36:05):
Tell us a little bit about theJewish element of the school.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
I'm so, so glad you asked, because I was also just
thinking we haven't spoken atall about the Jewish component.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Oh, the food, of course, that you have every day
together.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
Yeah, yeah.
It's a huge part of oureducation, our Jewish component.
In this journey I had a realinsight and a real kind of wall
within myself.
If I really wanted to start aschool, if there wasn't interest
in our community, would I stillone day start a non-Jewish
school?
And something about it at core,at heart, I'm a Jewish educator
.
Most of my career in teachinghas been teaching Jewish studies
.
I taught at Scopus for five orsix years as a Jewish studies
(36:41):
teacher.
That's really who I am.
So, practically speaking,hebrew is a very, very core part
of our education.
Kids will be doing Iverit everyday of academic classes, so
four days a week.
Very high aspirational desiresfor strong levels of Hebrew.
I'm not a Hebrew teacher.
We're going to find greatHebrew teachers.
I've had lots of conversationswith Hebrew teachers in the
(37:02):
community.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
We can teach Hebrew, just not to the standard that we
need it to be taught.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
Yeah, and we're going to find the right Hebrew
teacher and they're going to doamazing, amazing work.
So, historically, all theJewish schools in Australia are
fundamentally founded on areligious denomination or an
ideology, a Jewish ideology, aJewish denomination, and
historically I think that wasprobably the right approach for
our community.
I think that's what kind of20th century Judaism looked like
(37:27):
.
90th century Judaism lookedlike you were reform or you were
orthodox, or you were this kindof Zionist.
You were that kind of Zionist.
But I think moving forward,that's not the right approach.
That's not what our world lookslike anymore and I think a lot
of those boundaries are blurringbetween the denominations and
between the approaches peoplewant for their Jewish lives.
So our Jewish approach isreally grounded on pedagogy and
(37:50):
not ideology.
What that means is the questionwe ask ourselves is what value
does this lesson have for astudent, for a young person, and
how does it equip them to livein the Jewish world with
competence, with confidence,with empowerment?
Rather than asking, what sortof graduate do I want the
student to be, I'm invested inmaking sure that they are
equipped with the fluency, thecompetence, the confidence to
(38:14):
feel at home wherever they findthemselves in the Jewish world.
That's what I'm looking for.
What does that mean?
It means kids need to know thebasics of historical Judaism.
Historical Judaism means thehistorical philot which are the
core parts of really across thedenominations.
Kids need to know the basics ofJewish texts, not just the
basics, the fundamentals, thefoundations, the bedrock of
(38:35):
Jewish texts, chumash, theHaggadah, basic parts of the
Mahzorah.
I mean it has to be at anage-appropriate level but it all
has to be taught with love,with care, with enthusiasm.
I want kids doing likebibliodrama plays at the parasha
each week.
I want kids having you knowarguments about different parts
of the Mishnah.
(38:56):
We often think of Jewishlearning as reading texts.
Like that's like serious sortof quote unquote, for those
listening home are doing airquotes, quote unquote.
Jewish learning is aboutreading books.
But the books are there toactually make life valuable and
interesting and full ofvivaciousness and vibrance, and
developing wisdom and addressingproblems and challenges in our
life, and so it actually has tomake the jump from the page into
(39:18):
real life and will there be afocus on Jewish feminism,
because I'm assuming that thetwo of you are feminists.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
I make that assumption based on the fact
that Adam's wife is a rubberknit, and I make that assumption
based on nothing other thanyour earrings, eleanor we were
100, correct in that when youtell the Passover story, would
you tell it through the lens ofMiriam and her involvement and
(39:49):
make her a protagonist?
Are you going to shake thatshit up too?
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Yeah, we're definitely going to shake that
shit up, and I'll just add tothe Jewish element that, when we
talk about all of the thingsthat we want the kids to have a
strong foundation in and I havemy own, you know, complicated
and wonderful relationship toJudaism and you can't save it
I'm wearing pants right now andI have Scandalous, scandalous
Judaism and I'm you can't saveit.
I'm wearing pants right now andI have scandalous, scandalous,
(40:14):
and I also was born not Jewishand have lived as a progressive
for a long time, and now I livea kind of modern orthodox
lifestyle.
I keep kosher and I keepShabbat, but I and Adam both of
us have a really strong ideathat it's really we want to
provide the students, and thefamilies as well, with
(40:35):
everything they need to maketheir own decision and have in
and out of different practicesover time.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Tell us about the challenges, the practical
challenges of starting a newschool, like how much red tape
are you having to cut through?
You've been talking a lot aboutthe types of teachers you would
have, but so far, as far as Iunderstand, there's only going
to be the two of you.
(41:03):
So how challenging is it goingto be to find the teachers in
time, because you want to openthis thing next year, in 2026.
So tell us about, perhaps, whatmight be keeping you up at
night at the moment, about thepractical implications of doing
all of this in the next sixmonths.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
Great question.
I will say that we did notchoose to do this for the fame
and money.
That's for sure.
We did make a really greatdecision of us in marrying who
we married 10 or 11 years ago.
So Adam not only married awoman who became a rabbinate but
is also a lawyer, and I marriedsomeone who is a town planner
(41:42):
and both those turns outincredibly useful when you're
trying to register a new school.
so we've been working very hardon submitting our application to
register a new school with the,the RA, which we've just done,
and that's like an ongoingprocess about the evidence
needed and this, that and theother and planning applications,
and I think the document wesubmitted was like 470 pages to
(42:04):
them on the 30th of June.
So that was a big achievementalready, but it just keeps going
, which is glorious.
For the first probably twoyears we're going to be at a
beautiful, beautiful mid-centurypalace it feels to me called
the Stiebel, which is now theSchuyl, which does beautiful
life cycle events, and thisbuilding itself is just so
(42:25):
gorgeous.
It's in Caulfield East.
It originally was built as acasino because it's right next
to the race course.
The Caulfiel Love it and solike velvet wallpaper and like
raw silk curtains and parquetryfloor and there's a bar and like
we will make it into a school.
It's great.
But again, because it's such asmall place, a small school, we
(42:45):
actually don't need to build bigempty grey classrooms.
It actually is perfect thatthere's a little library that
can sit 10 kids, like amazing,that's where we're going to do
our English lessons and thatthere are two you know
classrooms Amazing, that's ourmaths and science room.
So that works beautifully andthat's been a really gorgeous
process of getting to know lotsof different places in the
community and talking to lots ofshuls from lots of different
(43:08):
denominations who wanted us tohold our school there.
They wanted of shuls from lotsof different denominations who
wanted us to hold our schoolthere.
They wanted to be our premises,especially for the first few
years, which was absolutelyglorious.
So working on that process isdefinitely another big part of
it and we've really enjoyed.
We've had a lot of teachersreach out to us and we haven't
even listed any job ads oranything like that.
So that's been wonderful andthat would be the next part of
(43:29):
our process.
But, again, because we're onlyopening with 20 students and not
seeking 60 enrollments in thefirst year, if it were up to us
we would start with 10, but thevrqa requires us to have 20
we'll open prep to grade 3 andso, yeah, we're looking at 20
kids, which means reallythere'll only be like two
lessons happening at once, soyou can actually manage it with
two or three part-time staff,which is wonderful what else?
(43:50):
would you add about what'sneeded to start a school?
Speaker 4 (43:53):
there are so many challenges and I'm really
grateful to the people that helpus along the way.
We found a new schoolconsultant who's really guide us
through the process.
But I guess I've learnedthrough this process of starting
a school that if you get boggeddown in all the challenges it
makes it really hard to start,and I've I've really learned to
(44:13):
just take things one piece at atime and not try to answer
everything all at once.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
Take things one piece at a time, Just watching Adam
and all of what he's beenmanaging and thinking about and
just how intense and, you know,laborious the process is to
start a school.
It really is a case of intutsuenzo agata, Like he has to keep
willing it in order to make itnot a dream, and he actually
received some advice from JohnMarsden, who passed away last
(44:38):
year.
Sadly, Adam's got it printedout in his kitchen and it
basically just says just startthe bloody thing.
Like in 10 years it'll be evenharder.
So just start.
So I feel grateful for all ofthe thinking and preparation
that's gone into it and I just,I so believe in what this type
of school can offer and I so cansee that there's a hunger for
(45:00):
it in the community and itdoesn't need to be, I'm sure,
growing up in, certainly inprogressive schools.
This is a big story that I heardmany times the story of someone
walking along the beach andthere's millions of starfish
washed up on the beach andthey're throwing individual
starfish back into the water andsomeone walks up to this woman
who's throwing the starfish backin and they're like you're
never going to get all of thestarfish, Like why are you
(45:22):
wasting your time, it's nevergoing to make a difference.
And she picks up a starfish,throws it in and she says it's
going to make a difference tothat starfish.
We're not planning on worlddomination, we're not going to
have a multi-layer high schoolthing, but it is going to make a
difference to the 50 or so kidsthat come through our doors and
that is really powerful andwe've seen what a difference it
can make and that's worth all ofthe late nights and all of the
(45:44):
documentation and all the thingslike that's just detail.
We know what we're doing andit's for the right reasons, so
we're happy to do the work.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Wow, thank you so much for chatting with us today.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
Thank you, guys, best of luck throwing your starfish
into the ocean.
I'm so excited to interview youin a year or two years time to
have a check-in, see how you'regoing.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
Amazing, you can come for the opening of the queen
esther wing of the new building.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
I'll be there, amazing thanks, thanks guys,
amazing, you can come for theopening of the Queen Esther wing
of the new building.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
I'll be there.
Amazing Thanks guys.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Thanks, guys.
That was our interview withAdam Hyman and Eleanor
Hasenfratz from BatehillowCommunity School in Melbourne,
australia, and that's it forthis week.
You've been listening to AShame to Admit with me, dash
Lawrence week You've beenlistening to.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
A Shame to Admit, with me Dash Lawrence and me
Tammy Sussman, future CEO ofEsther Academy School of Krav
Maga and Mixed Martial Arts.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
If you like the podcast, forward it to a mate.
Tell them it's even moreenjoyable than a Vegemite
sandwich.
Plain white bread, lots ofbutter.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
As always, thanks for your support and look out for
us next week.
Thank you.
Did you graduate from Jewish school over a decade ago
but still have vivid memoriesof a teacher telling you that
you should be ashamed ofyourself for misbehaving in
class?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Or are you just interested in Jewish day schools
, how they're created fromconception to grand opening day
schools, how they're createdfrom conception to grand opening
.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
If you answered yes to one or more of those
questions, then you've come tothe right place.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I'm Dash Lawrence from the Jewish Independent and
in today's episode, your thirdcousin, Tammy Sussman, and I
will be talking to two Jewisheducators from Melbourne,
Australia, who are reimaginingwhat Jewish schooling can look
like, blending alternativeeducation with deep cultural
connection, through their boldnew project, Beit Hillel
(00:54):
Community School.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Who knows if they'll be ashamed to admit anything.
It's season three of thisJewish Independent podcast and
we seem to be dropping our shame.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Some of us more than others, Tammy.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Come along for the ride, as we have a go at cutting
through some seriously chewyand dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Welcome to this week's episode of A Shame to
Admit.
Welcome back, I'm Dash Lawrence, executive Director here at the
Jewish Independent and, as oflast month, secretary of Hamble
(01:36):
Victoria.
Tammy, did you slot that in atthe last minute?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I am the person who inserted that tidbit into
today's script Tammy Sussman.
Person who inserted that tidbitinto today's script, tammy
Sussman.
I'm also the person who needsto know why a primary school
playground game needs its owngoverning body.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Okay, European handball Tammy.
It's different to the type ofhandball you're thinking of, the
type of handball that's alsoknown as four square.
I think that's what you'rethinking of, the type of
handball that's also known asfour square.
I think that's what you'rethinking of.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
That is where there's king, queen jack dunce.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Dunce, yes, the game where the ball is hit against
the wall with the hand commonlyplayed in Australia, new Zealand
and other primary schools inanglophonic countries.
Yeah, so European handball is acompletely different game,
tammy, okay.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Is that what they play in primary schools in
Europe?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Probably more likely to.
Yeah, it's actually an Olympicsport, Tammy.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Is it a game that you double in yourself?
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Look, I have played a little bit of handball the
European handball from time totime, but no, it's not a game
that I've played much of.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Okay, so then, why are you secretary of handball
Victoria?
Like what and why and how?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Look, the game is on an upward trajectory.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Tammy, I'm not interested in the game I'm
interested in, like why is therea governing body and why are
you the secretary?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Australia is going to be fielding a team at the 2032
Olympic Games in Brisbane.
It'll be the first time thatAustralia will have done that
since we last did it at theSydney Games in 2000.
And it's an exciting moment.
I was excited about theprospect of supporting the
growth of European handball inVictoria.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
So you reached out to them and said do you need a
secretary, or did they poach youDid?
They just happen to belisteners of this show and they
thought you know who'd be areally great secretary, so they
called you.
Is that what happened?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Something like that.
You mentioned school earlier,and I think that's really the
nub of today's conversation,isn't it?
Because this week, as youforeshadowed at the front of our
episode, we are talking allabout Jewish education and a
radical, bold, courageousinitiative that is about to be
(04:08):
launched next year, beit HillelCommunity School.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
That is a beautiful deflection from your own
nerdiness and a beautiful segueinto today's episode Shkoyach
Dash.
You're absolutely right,because today our listeners will
be hearing our interview withAdam Hyman and Eleanor
(04:32):
Hasenfratz, two Melbourne-basedJewish educators and co-founders
of Beit Hillel Community School.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Drawing on their diverse experience in both
mainstream and Jewish education.
Drawing on their diverseexperience in both mainstream
and Jewish education, adam andEleanor have decided to create a
pedagogy-first model thatblends academic rigor with
creativity, nature and inclusiveJewish life.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Now, if you don't know what the word pedagogy
means, don't be ashamed.
I also don't know Dash.
Can you enlighten me?
Because the words used a lotthroughout the interview, around
six times, and I smiled and Inodded every time it was said
and I do not know what it means.
(05:19):
I thought it had something todo with dinosaurs.
That's paleontology.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
It's like the principles or the theory that
underpins the approach toteaching and education.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
It's very different to paleontology, which I've now
confirmed.
That relates to the scientificstudy of the history of life on
Earth through the examination ofplant and animal fossils.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Adam and Eleanor, welcome to A Shame to Admit.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Thank you.
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Now you guys are building a school not around a
motto or a mission statement,but a question, an intriguing
question at that.
The question is are we raisingjoyous, wise and courageous
children?
Firstly, why the question?
And do you have an answer toyour own question?
Speaker 4 (06:24):
I think it's really important that when we prompt
people to think about parenting,education and how we raise
young people, we do that with aprompt, not just a hook of some
sort, because really it startswith self-reflection.
It starts with what are thethings that we ourselves value
in our own lives?
And the prompt is how do weinculcate that in young children
(06:48):
?
And I think those three virtuesof wisdom, courage and joy are
really the, for me, the primevirtues in how we face the world
.
Life is challenging and we needcourage to address those
challenges, to find our ownstrength and our strength in
community.
But also, life is wonderful andit's joyous and we need
(07:09):
optimism and we need a stature,a posture towards the world that
is good, that we can be good,that we can do good and that we
can find the humour and just thejoy and optimism in everything.
And schools are like education,and education is the bedrock of
what and education is thebedrock of what schools are
about and the bedrock ofparenting.
But one step above educationand knowledge is wisdom, and we
(07:35):
need to recognise that knowledgeis really only as good as when
it gets us to the point ofwisdom.
So I guess that's why I wasreally drawn to those three
virtues and it gets us to thepoint of wisdom.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
So I guess that's why I was really drawn to those
three virtues.
They make sense to me and it'sfunny every time we sit down
together I sort of glean youknow different things from
having this conversation thateducation and the Jewish
community are a match made inheaven.
It's everyone's favoritepastime to talk about our
schools and they are amazing,amazing schools.
And I think as soon as you hita certain age, or if you have
children like basically fromwhen they're in utero you start
(08:09):
thinking about which school arethey going to and what can we
afford and what about this?
And he went to Scopus, but Iwent here and I don't know and
I'm not sure.
And the buses, and it's just.
You know there's a, and I'm surein Sydney as well, there's a
whole long, gloriousconversation that you have at
parks and simchas and familyshoves, dinners, about which
school and what kind of school,and all of those schools have
amazing benefits and some ofthem have drawbacks, depending
(08:31):
on who you are and what you wantout of the school.
But they all currently exist andtherefore they have those pros
and cons.
And so we're in this kind ofamazing position of we're going
to start one from the verybeginning.
I heard another amazingeducator, john Marsden, who was
an author and founded a schoolwith a similar philosophy, say
(08:51):
you know, after many decades ofteaching, I saw terrible things
and wonderful things, and Ithought what if I take all the
wonderful things and leave outall the terrible things, maybe
that will lead to a really goodschool?
And his school is really good.
And so I think we're comingfrom a similar kind of position,
except we're doing it withinthe Jewish community, where you
know, our schools are what's thephrase that we tend to use?
(09:12):
The shining jewels of ourcommunity.
I think that's a phrase peopleuse, and they really are, and
there's some amazing thingsabout them, but we want to do
something different that doesn'tcurrently exist in our Jewish
community.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
And so we're thinking from really the ground up.
What are the values we want toinstill?
When I heard the name of yourschool, I was thinking what a
lost opportunity to not name aschool after a female.
We have all these kings, kingDavid, we have these mountains
why not Queen Esther School?
Tell us about the process youwent through in choosing the
name Beit Hillel, because forthose of our listeners who might
(09:51):
not know the reference, hillelwas a pretty important person.
And what does that choice sayabout the kind of Jewish
education that you're trying tocreate?
Speaker 4 (10:04):
I always felt like schools should have names that
mean something to the students.
Tell me, like you, I went toMount Sinai College in Sydney
and I love the name Mount Sinai,and our school song really
reflected the values behind thatname.
Not only was it a place of thegiving of the Torah, but also
there's that gorgeous midrashwhere all the different
(10:24):
mountains are calling out sayinggive the Torah on me, give the
Torah on me.
And the tallest mountain wasrejected because it was arrogant
.
And the strongest mountain, thewidest mountain, they were all
rejected.
But Mount Sinai was a smallmountain and it was its humility
that inculcated the values ofwhat having the Torah on it,
given on it, is about, and thatalways meant something to me
(10:46):
that a mountain and it wasn't avalley, it was a mountain and
nonetheless had stature, but itwas a humble mountain.
As a child, that always meantsomething to me and I still
clearly carry that lesson withinme today.
So I really wanted to make surethat our school had a name that
meant something to the students,and when I thought about what
(11:07):
sort of teachings we have in ourtradition that are both rich
and deep but also veryaccessible, I kept landing on
all the teachings and all thestories about Hillel the Elder,
hillel Hazaken, and there'sthree or four that kind of jump
out at me that are all aboutpeace and fraternity and
patience and wisdom.
(11:28):
I'm thinking first of all ofthe story where the convert
comes to Hillel after beingrejected by other rabbis.
He comes to Hillel and he sayscan you teach me the whole of
Torah?
While I stand on one foot andHillel says to him sure, all of
Torah is don't do to others whatis hateful to yourself.
That's the whole of Torah.
Everything else is a teaching,a commentary on that.
(11:50):
Now, come inside and learn, andit's about patience, it's about
acceptance, it's aboutcompassion, it's about tolerance
, but it's also about now, comeand join us, be part of the
community and keep learningfurther.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
So, Eleanor, did you put forward the Queen Esther
School?
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Yeah well, I'm ashamed to admit that I did not
put forward the name of QueenEsther, but perhaps that might
be in your future, Tammy, thatyou're going to start a school,
maybe like a martial arts schoolfor Jewish girls, called the
Queen Esther Academy ofJiu-Jitsu or something like that
.
That would be so great.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, but it would be Krav Maga.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
It would be Krav Maga .
You know it would bemultidisciplinary, I think.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
But it would have been a perfect name because
Queen Esther is that characterand I think she's probably the
strongest example of it inTanakh, who really finds her
courage.
For the first half of MegillatEsther she's a totally passive
character and you have almostthe exact middle.
Pasuk is when she has thattotal turnaround and realises if
she doesn't speak up nothing'sgoing to happen.
(12:54):
And when she goes to achashverosh it's the first time
she actually speaks in the wholeMegillat and her whole
character turns around in amoment.
So it's a gorgeous name Ihighly recommend it.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
I get paid to consult on projects like this.
So I've just we're having arebrand and you just got that
for free.
I think that's what's happeningnow.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Okay, let's dig a little bit more into the
philosophy of Bait Halal andwhat you're proposing to
establish.
So you have described thephilosophy as both old school
and new and out of the box, andyou're promoting rigorous
back-to-basics literacy andnumeracy, alongside lots of
(13:35):
outdoor and nature play.
Tell us about how it's possibleto reconcile what appears to be
two kind of competingeducational principles, of both
being old school and traditionalapproach to the fundamentals of
pedagogy and also, I guess, amore flexible notion of
(14:00):
education for children.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
We have kept that deliberately confusing to prompt
people to ask more questions.
It's like a little mini PesachSeder that we're running by.
being slightly strange, peopleare like hang on a minute what
and we're like, we're so gladyou asked, let me tell you about
it.
So I think a good way to startis by telling you a little bit
more about what day-to-day lifeactually looks like or will look
(14:24):
like at Bayt Hill, and alsosharing that there are some
schools that exist on the samekind of framework that we've
been inspired by.
So it's not just Adam andEleanor, you know, sitting in a
living room one show thisafternoon being like what's the
weirdest thing we can think ofdoing.
I know, let's start a school,let's make some stuff up right
now.
So these things do currentlyexist, and in schools that
(14:45):
receive very, very high results,kind of academically speaking
and also in terms of thechildren and students that they
produce is kind of the wrongword, but the students and
children who go there do tend tobe, you know, competent,
well-rounded, confident in theworld, knowing themselves and
how to learn, which we think isreally admirable.
So I'll tell you a little bitmore about what the day-to-day
(15:06):
looks like and some of the keydifferences between Bay Hillel
and a mainstream school setting,which is what we have all
experienced.
I presume One of the maindifferences is there's a really
big focus on mixed age groups sothat sometimes in a normal
school you might have like abuddies program where the preps
and the year sixes might hangout once a week and do like a
coloring activity together orlike sometimes that's done
(15:28):
really well and those kids havea genuine connection.
Vast majority of the time that'susually a reasonably tokenistic
thing to do.
Maybe only happens in term oneand two and those kids don't
become really friends.
They don't really have a strongconnection and, speaking from
experience as a grade six orprep teacher, it's usually the
first lesson to get ditched Ifthe grade sixes are behind in
their persuasive texts or thereare nits in the prep classroom
(15:49):
or something the teachers willbe like let's not do that this
week, let's come back to it, andso it isn't really prioritised.
Those relationships aren'tprioritised and kids are
generally in their year levelage groupings and that is who
they are friends with and that'swhat they hang out with and
that's what they learn with, whothey are friends with and
that's what they hang out withand that's what they learn with.
So at Beit Hillel we're kind ofbusting that wide open, which
(16:11):
is that two days a week kidswill be in mixed age groups.
At other schools they call themtribes.
Adam and I both actuallyteaching at a school which uses
this model, and when I'mteaching art and drama I will
have tribes come into myclassroom, which means it'll be
the wombats first and there areabout 10 kids in that year level
in that group and it'll be liketwo preps, two grade ones, one
grade two, a couple of gradethrees, two grade fours, you
know, so on and so forth, sothere'll be a full mixing and
(16:32):
those kids are together in thatgroup two days a week in all of
their classes.
Usually they'll be in their ownage group for maths and English
, but for art and science anddrama and for us Jewish studies
and tefillah and outdoor timeand sport and all these kinds of
non-core learning, you know,reading, writing, arithmetic,
that sort of thing.
(16:53):
They're in mixed age groups.
And I have been just to take atiny step back and tell you
about how I got involved in thisproject.
So Adam has been wanting to dothis for 10 years.
He visited a school like thisfor his teaching rounds and he
was like, oh my God, thisdoesn't exist in the Jewish
community and this needs toexist and this is fundamentally
different to what's on offer andhe's been talking to me about
(17:15):
it for about six years and I'llbe like that's nice, dear, that
sounds good for you, go forthand work on your project.
And for about three years he'sbeen asking me to be involved
and I have wanted to support himas a fellow educator.
I think it's really admirable,but I've basically been like
that sounds really hard, I don'twant to get involved in that.
And then at the start of thisyear I happened to start working
(17:37):
at the same school as Adam,without him even realising the
school we work at is calledFitzroy Community School.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
The school we work at is called Fitzroy Community
School and it's where I did myteaching rounds when I was
studying, and I've gone back andworked there a few times since.
Sort of by coincidence, we'reboth working there together at
the moment.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Also the school that inspired John Marsden to start
his school, and a few otherschools have started, based on
working at Fitzroy.
So within about two weeks of meworking at Fitzroy I was like,
okay, I get it, I'm in, I'm allin, let's do this.
So one of the things thatreally changed my mind was this
mixed age group.
So at first I was like I'm amainstream primary school
(18:12):
teacher.
I was like how is this going towork?
How am I meant to teach a classfor kids who are five and 12 at
the same time?
I can't possibly understand howthat's going to work.
And yet it does incredibly welland the benefit that you get
from that is incredibly highbehavioral norms and incredibly
high levels of just inherentleadership and care and
understanding that kids can befriends outside of their
(18:35):
calendar year age grouping andthey actually gain a lot from
that.
So I think in my first day Iwas noticing what was it like?
A grade four boy, withoutanyone needing to ask him to do
anything, noticed that a prephad his shoelaces undone and
went and tied his shoelaces forhim and honestly, like it's a
(18:56):
sad state that that is somind-blowing to me.
But it was mind-blowing to meand I think any teachers
listening would be like, yeah,that's weird, like you don't
often see that in other schools,and so that was incredible
Watching kids at lunchtimes.
We all eat together every day.
The school provides all of thefood and the kids line up and
get their food and they makesure that their tinies you know
(19:17):
their sort of preps, who they'relooking after have had food as
well, and then everyone justkind of hangs out and sits down
to eat together in a non kind offormal setting.
There's a big table where theteachers sit and sometimes kids
will be doing origami or doingthe quiz with us and hanging out
.
And I remember looking out thewindow and seeing a prep, a
grade two and a grade sixgenuinely sitting down and
(19:38):
eating lunch together and, Ithink, playing some really
complicated card game orsomething, and I was like what
is happening?
I don't understand, you wouldnot see this.
You just would not say this atanother school.
So the mixed age is reallybringing this idea of that.
The school is an extension ofthe family home and that is made
possible by the size of theschool.
So this is not going to.
We have no plans for worlddomination.
(19:59):
This school is going to be 50,maybe 60 kids, so approximately
10-ish per year level, and thatmakes those friendships and
relationships possible.
So another thing I saw in myfirst week was there was a year
level that I was teaching formaths and there were, I think,
grade twos and there were twogirls and seven or eight boys,
and very rambunctious boys aswell.
(20:21):
And I asked the girls, I said,how is it for you being the only
girls in this class?
They as well.
And I asked the girls I said,how is it for you being the only
girls in this class?
They're like, yeah, it's fine,because we also are in tribes
half the week and it's just nota problem.
So they actually have thesocial capacity is the entire
school.
Then no one is kind of trapped.
And I know that that can be aconcern in other schools where
it particularly if it's a smallclass that's your friendship
(20:42):
group and if you don't succeedin that friendship group you're
going to have a pretty terribleyear.
And I know even you know fromschools in our community being a
small school can be challenging.
But I think the fact that theyreally enhance mixed age group
friendships and learningtogether just makes a lot of
things possible.
So that's one primarydifference.
Another primary difference aboutthis school is that there is a
(21:03):
particular teacher for everysingle subject, sort of like in
a high school.
For maths, you go to the mathsteacher in the maths room.
For English, you go to theEnglish teacher in the English
room, so on and so forth, andthe kids move around the school
by themselves.
Every day They'll go throughthe kitchen to just check the
timetable and then they'll allcall out tinies, have English,
and they'll, all you know,toddle off to the English room.
(21:24):
As opposed to in a mainstreamschool where if I had a
specialist teacher for artperhaps I would need to walk my
kids in a blob or two straightlines whatever I could achieve
and walk them in and kind ofhand them over, and there was a
very high level of supervisionand a very low level of trust.
I would never send my gradethrees off to walk to the art
room by themselves, whereas atthe school we're teaching at,
(21:45):
that's just very possible to do.
No one is going to get lost andno one's really going to get
out to mischief because everyoneis generally on track as well.
So it also means and I'm sureyou've been through this
experience, or you worry aboutit for your own children, that
if you're starting grade one andyou don't like the grade one
teacher or your child doesn'tlike the grade one teacher one
(22:05):
and you don't like the grade oneteacher, or your child doesn't
like the grade one teacher, orGod forbid, you get the sense
the teacher doesn't like yourchild, which can happen.
I mean, and you know, teachersare wonderful, but it's very
intense to be with one adult forevery single subject for an
entire year and it can be hit ormiss and that can lead to
wonderful deep connections andfriendships and love for that
teacher and then be hard toleave them, or it can be really
(22:26):
hard for an entire year to bewith a personality that you just
clash with.
What I think is reallybeautiful about this model is
that the kids at the schoolwe're working at at Fitzroy have
a really strong connection withmaybe 10 different adults and
it really does feel like afamily.
It really feels like everyone'sa kind of auntie or uncle.
They can call on anybody, andso those were two of the kind of
(22:48):
key reasons that make thisschool model different that I
was like yeah, I'm totally in.
This makes complete sense to me.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
It sounds to me like that will be better for the
teachers as well.
I often think about theteachers just as an example.
My daughter in the UK has quite, quite a challenging class and
I think about that teacher withthem for the whole year and I'm
worried about her burning out.
So yeah, sounds great from thatperspective as well.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
I would mention that because usually when we talk
about the school, we're talkingto prospective parents and so
I'm not really talking about thebenefits to teachers.
But really our experience ofworking at Fitzroy Community
School is hugely beneficial toteachers for precisely the
reasons you say.
There's so much less burnoutand because you're focused on a
specific academic subject ratherthan the whole entire
(23:40):
curriculum.
You're much more focused, youdevelop more expertise in your
area.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, less overwhelm.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
But that also benefits the kids, because when
a teacher's not burnt out, theycan be more present and have
more energy to give and you alsocan teach the subjects that you
yourself are more passionateabout, that you're better at
teaching.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
There's nothing worse than having a teacher who's a
wonderful English teacher but aterrible maths teacher who's not
teaching maths half the day.
It's not helpful for the kids.
It's not helpful for theteachers.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
I'm getting quite excited about this school.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
I'm interested in the model and I know that what you
are talking about in the case ofFitzroy has been very well
established.
Now there is a cohort, there isa community out there that
wants that form of education.
I'm just wondering is theMelbourne Jewish community,
(24:34):
which has particular ideas aboutwhat education should be and
particular ideas about the waythat classes should be run,
going to be primed and ready forwhat is quite a unorthodox
approach to education?
Speaker 4 (24:53):
Really keen to address that.
I want to just make sure Ispell out sort of the kind of
four or five ways that theschool is a different model of
schooling and then I want totell you a bit more about the
philosophy which I think linksto your question.
So the idea is that this willbe a consciously and
intentionally small school whenschools get big.
(25:13):
There's this concept inanthropology I forget what the
name of it is, but Dunbar'snumber or something that
communities tend to coalescearound a certain number of
people.
I think in the research it'sabout 150 people.
As big as a community or atribe gets before people stop
knowing each other.
I went to Mount Sinai and when Iwas at Mount Sinai I was the
(25:33):
last year level to be singlestreamed.
So after me every single yearlevel was double streamed and
then became triple streamed andit's no knock on the school at
all.
Schools are complicated placesthat have lots of different
needs they have to address andthey have to meet the community
where it's at All of that istrue.
But I noticed when I was in UKI think they call it in Sydney
prep in Melbourne I kneweveryone at the school and I
(25:54):
knew most of the parents at theschool and by the time I got to
year six, when the school haddoubled in size, all of that had
been lost.
Frankly, a small school canreally hold its culture together
and can really develop adifferent kind of culture, in
the same way that, as adults,people are drawn to different
kinds of workplaces.
Some people want large, youknow kind of big multinational
conglomerate organizations theywant to work for, and some
(26:16):
people want to work for small,boutique organizations.
They bring something differentto the picture.
The school will provide foodevery day so that everyone eats
and because food is more thanjust nourishment.
It's nourishment of the soul.
It's how communities connectwith each other.
All communities across all timeconnect over food.
Ironically, school is the oneexample of a place where people
don't connect over food, becausekids are not allowed to share
(26:36):
food in primary schools.
And what's become the norm inprimary schools?
You guys may not know this, butwhat's become the norm in
primary schools is kids sit inthe classroom, take out their
lunchbox, sit at their desk andeat, while the teacher very,
very often puts a video on thesmart board or the projector in
the classroom.
And I can see your face.
Yeah, I can see your wide eyesthere it's not a knock on
(26:58):
teachers.
It's not a knock on schools.
It's the nature of the culturethat has come into schools, the
overwhelm on teachers and,frankly, also the very poor
behavioural norms at mostschools.
It's really hard to manage kidsin a classroom when they have
quote-unquote free time.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Sometimes you've just got to put on Mr Bean so that
you know you can deal with theissues that have occurred in the
last lesson, or you can makesure that the kids who maybe
aren't getting enough food athome are actually eating their
lunch, or the kids you'reworried about maybe having
disordered eating are eatingtheir food Like it's a very we
understand allergies the wholething.
We understand what happens, butit's become this really quite
strange culture and it becomesnormal.
(27:37):
And then you have the sort ofslightly addicted children who
expect that all of the time andthat's the way to sort of calm
them down and make sure thatthey eat and it's just, it's
weird and unnatural.
But we sit down and you knowthey're eating in front of a
screen and it's kind of sterileand again it's like a lack of
trust in the kids.
But it's a.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
It's a bigger picture than just that teacher and just
that classroom so that toucheson two things first of all, is
everyone will eat food togetherevery day, a provided lunch, so
that it addresses the issue ofcontrol, it addresses the issues
of allergies, of kids sharingfood, everyone sitting to eat a
meal together, and it alsotouches on the idea of
technology.
(28:14):
This will be an absolute minimumtech school, perhaps even a
zero tech school.
At the school we teach at, Iteach science as well as maths,
and when I want to show the kidsa video in science class which
is really the only time there'sany tech really I whip it out on
my phone and the kids huddlearound and we watch a little
video about, you know, marineanimals or something, and it's
usually a five minute clip andthat's all it is.
But in a small class you canreally do that with kids
(28:35):
gathering around.
But we don't need all thisextra iPad time.
We don't need Kids run devicesa lot at school and frankly, I
don't know what benefit they'readding.
I really don't.
The only other piece perhaps isfour days a week will be
regular academic classes, andone day a week will be what
we're calling workshopWednesdays, which is our time to
have excursions, time in nature, intergenerational community
(28:58):
experiences, which meansvisiting old age homes in the
community and participating inthose sorts of events, bringing
guest speakers and doing kind ofcreative arts workshops,
science workshops, those sortsof things, and also just walking
kids to the local playgroundand letting them play.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
And catching trams and being out in the world.
Speaker 4 (29:16):
Yeah, yeah yeah.
And buying a Slurpee on the wayback to school.
So with all that let me kind oftouch on the philosophy which I
think comes back to yourquestion, dash.
So there's this idea inpedagogy studies of something
called the hidden curriculum,the curriculum we're all
familiar with.
The curriculum sets out mathsexpectations, literacy
expectations, what to learn inscience.
(29:37):
The hidden curriculum is thisconcept that in a school
environment we're teaching allsorts of other things that are
often not measurable and notexplicitly defined what we
should be doing, and that'sabout the school culture.
It's about what sort ofuniforms are kids wearing.
At Bay Hill there won't be auniform, and I think that
teaches kids independence.
(29:58):
I think it's also moreaffordable for families.
I think it also means that ifit's a muddy day and we're going
and playing soccer and there'smud on the ground, you're not
worried about your uniformgetting dirty and you don't have
this mad dash the night beforeschool of washing and putting
things in a dry.
So you've got enough uniforms,like it's no big deal.
The clothes you bought from anart shop will get muddy.
It's fine.
That hidden curriculum is alsothat all this group of adults
(30:21):
around you are all there to lookout for you and you know all of
them.
There's all these ideas that wecould talk about.
It could be a whole podcast inand of itself.
The hidden curriculum is thisconcept of all the things that
create a culture and learningenvironment, and taking the
hidden curriculum seriouslymeans building it into the
school from the beginning.
Your question was about anunorthodox education in the
(30:43):
Jewish community.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
I think what is underneath that question is
really about trust, because Ithink that what is something
special about the Fitzroy modelfrom a parent's perspective is
that it requires a high level oftrust from parents in the
school to educate their children.
When we think about the Jewishcommunity, as maybe parents who
are a little bit more anxiousand have like a very high level
(31:05):
of oversight into their kids'education and the way that
Fitzroy kind of words that is,that it's like a temporary
three-way marriage and allparties need to be on board and
willing to work together andhave goodwill and not be kind of
looking for the holes and havea lack of trust in the school.
Because as soon as you have alack of trust in the school, lo
and behold, there'll be thingsthat we'll be unhappy with.
(31:26):
So I think that is a particularchallenge in establishing any
school from scratch and inbringing on any cohort of
parents.
And I think in the Jewishcommunity we'll have our own
particular challenges based onwhat we're used to and how
schools generally operate.
And we do really encourageparents to come and visit
Fitzroy because I think once yousee it in real life you're like
, oh right, it's a school.
(31:47):
It feels radically different.
Kids are not in uniform, thereare kids who are not in class
for some reason.
What's going on there?
But then you realize, oh,they're all actually saying
thank you to the teacher at theend of the lesson and they're
sitting down to eat together andno one's throwing anything.
And kids are not generallyneeding lots and lots of extra
support because of theenvironment that they're in.
We care deeply about our kids'education, and I think there are
(32:10):
a lot of people who are lookingfor something else and looking
for something more robust andkind of simple, and I think that
that's something that BaitHillel is going to provide, and
that they are looking for anenvironment like this where they
can put their trust in theschool and know that their kids
are going to get the kind ofnon-cookie cutter approach where
they can be, you know, realcompetent people in the world by
(32:32):
the time they leave school, andif they get excellent accolade
results along the way, that'swonderful as well.
So we've had about 70-ishfamilies come through our
information sessions so far.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Well, it's about to be 80 after I convince all of.
I won't even need to convincemy people because we're having
the same conversations, but Iknow one of the questions
they're going to ask me and thatis how much does the school
cost Precisely?
How can you make it a publicschool is what I want to know.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
That's a really good question and something that will
take a lot of lobbying to thegovernment to change the way we
fund schools in our country.
The reality is that any schoolthat wants to do something a bit
different whether it's aparticular cultural group,
particular pedagogy, afaith-based school basically
needs to run as an independentschool.
In Australia, independent isthe same as a private school.
(33:25):
That means it's fundeddifferently and there's tuition
to be paid.
So we are very, very consciousof affordability.
I know the challenge schoolaffordability had for my parents
when I was growing up and Iknow the pressure that put on
our family and we're very, veryconscious of that for parents
today.
The school fees will be amongstthe lowest of the Jewish
(33:48):
schools in Melbourne.
It's worth having a look at thewebsite Schedule.
Fees will be up there soon andthey'll be not outside the
ballpark of similar schools inthe area, but they will be on
the lower end, and fees willalso include all food, which
also includes not having to makelunches of an age which I think
(34:09):
is huge.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
That in and of itself has us sending our kids there
for sure.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
But the other piece I want to add is I love the
Jewish schools in Australia.
I really, really have no badthoughts about any of them and
I've taught at almost all ofthem.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
All of them, every single one?
Or are you being diplomatic?
Speaker 4 (34:28):
No, I think our schools are excellent.
I really do, I really dobelieve that.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Some of them are kooky.
You know, Adam really hastaught at almost all of the
Jewish schools.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
No, no, I've taught at half the Haredi schools in
Melbourne.
Like, haredi schools are adifferent genre of school.
Yes, I feel the same all overthe world.
They're a bit kooky.
No, really, I've taught atalmost all the Jewish schools in
Melbourne.
They are the jewel of ourcommunity.
They are successful on so manylevels and all the schools in
our community provide a wholelot of an amazing amount of
(35:00):
financial support for parents.
The school in Melbourne thatprovides the least amount of
financial support is stillproviding assistance to at least
a quarter of the students, andsome of the schools are
providing up to 80% of familieswith support.
So I guess what I'm saying is Idon't want to lead with like
come to this school because it'scheaper, I think it will be,
but if you're coming to theschool because it's cheaper, I
(35:20):
don't think you're the rightperson for the school.
If, if you're interested inbeta L, come to a parent
information session, start theconversation.
We'll find a way to make thefinances work and the starting
point will be lower than theother schools.
If finances are a problem,please come and talk to us.
We can find a way to make itwork.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
If it's the same every year, they won't go up.
So it'll cost the same thingfor prep as it will for year six
.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
We've talked a lot about the school's broader
philosophies, but we've almostnot at all touched on what makes
the school other than its nameJewish.
So I'm curious about how youare approaching the Jewish
element of the school, be itthrough Judaism, through the
languages that the studentsmight be learning.
(36:05):
Tell us a little bit about theJewish element of the school.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
I'm so, so glad you asked, because I was also just
thinking we haven't spoken atall about the Jewish component.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Oh, the food, of course, that you have every day
together.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
Yeah, yeah.
It's a huge part of oureducation, our Jewish component.
In this journey I had a realinsight and a real kind of wall
within myself.
If I really wanted to start aschool, if there wasn't interest
in our community, would I stillone day start a non-Jewish
school?
And something about it at core,at heart, I'm a Jewish educator
.
Most of my career in teachinghas been teaching Jewish studies
.
I taught at Scopus for five orsix years as a Jewish studies
(36:41):
teacher.
That's really who I am.
So, practically speaking,hebrew is a very, very core part
of our education.
Kids will be doing Iverit everyday of academic classes, so
four days a week.
Very high aspirational desiresfor strong levels of Hebrew.
I'm not a Hebrew teacher.
We're going to find greatHebrew teachers.
I've had lots of conversationswith Hebrew teachers in the
(37:02):
community.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
We can teach Hebrew, just not to the standard that we
need it to be taught.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
Yeah, and we're going to find the right Hebrew
teacher and they're going to doamazing, amazing work.
So, historically, all theJewish schools in Australia are
fundamentally founded on areligious denomination or an
ideology, a Jewish ideology, aJewish denomination, and
historically I think that wasprobably the right approach for
our community.
I think that's what kind of20th century Judaism looked like
(37:27):
.
90th century Judaism lookedlike you were reform or you were
orthodox, or you were this kindof Zionist.
You were that kind of Zionist.
But I think moving forward,that's not the right approach.
That's not what our world lookslike anymore and I think a lot
of those boundaries are blurringbetween the denominations and
between the approaches peoplewant for their Jewish lives.
So our Jewish approach isreally grounded on pedagogy and
(37:50):
not ideology.
What that means is the questionwe ask ourselves is what value
does this lesson have for astudent, for a young person, and
how does it equip them to livein the Jewish world with
competence, with confidence,with empowerment?
Rather than asking, what sortof graduate do I want the
student to be, I'm invested inmaking sure that they are
equipped with the fluency, thecompetence, the confidence to
(38:14):
feel at home wherever they findthemselves in the Jewish world.
That's what I'm looking for.
What does that mean?
It means kids need to know thebasics of historical Judaism.
Historical Judaism means thehistorical philot which are the
core parts of really across thedenominations.
Kids need to know the basics ofJewish texts, not just the
basics, the fundamentals, thefoundations, the bedrock of
(38:35):
Jewish texts, chumash, theHaggadah, basic parts of the
Mahzorah.
I mean it has to be at anage-appropriate level but it all
has to be taught with love,with care, with enthusiasm.
I want kids doing likebibliodrama plays at the parasha
each week.
I want kids having you knowarguments about different parts
of the Mishnah.
(38:56):
We often think of Jewishlearning as reading texts.
Like that's like serious sortof quote unquote, for those
listening home are doing airquotes, quote unquote.
Jewish learning is aboutreading books.
But the books are there toactually make life valuable and
interesting and full ofvivaciousness and vibrance, and
developing wisdom and addressingproblems and challenges in our
life, and so it actually has tomake the jump from the page into
(39:18):
real life and will there be afocus on Jewish feminism,
because I'm assuming that thetwo of you are feminists.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
I make that assumption based on the fact
that Adam's wife is a rubberknit, and I make that assumption
based on nothing other thanyour earrings, eleanor we were
100, correct in that when youtell the Passover story, would
you tell it through the lens ofMiriam and her involvement and
(39:49):
make her a protagonist?
Are you going to shake thatshit up too?
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Yeah, we're definitely going to shake that
shit up, and I'll just add tothe Jewish element that, when we
talk about all of the thingsthat we want the kids to have a
strong foundation in and I havemy own, you know, complicated
and wonderful relationship toJudaism and you can't save it
I'm wearing pants right now andI have Scandalous, scandalous
Judaism and I'm you can't saveit.
I'm wearing pants right now andI have scandalous, scandalous,
(40:14):
and I also was born not Jewishand have lived as a progressive
for a long time, and now I livea kind of modern orthodox
lifestyle.
I keep kosher and I keepShabbat, but I and Adam both of
us have a really strong ideathat it's really we want to
provide the students, and thefamilies as well, with
(40:35):
everything they need to maketheir own decision and have in
and out of different practicesover time.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Tell us about the challenges, the practical
challenges of starting a newschool, like how much red tape
are you having to cut through?
You've been talking a lot aboutthe types of teachers you would
have, but so far, as far as Iunderstand, there's only going
to be the two of you.
(41:03):
So how challenging is it goingto be to find the teachers in
time, because you want to openthis thing next year, in 2026.
So tell us about, perhaps, whatmight be keeping you up at
night at the moment, about thepractical implications of doing
all of this in the next sixmonths.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
Great question.
I will say that we did notchoose to do this for the fame
and money.
That's for sure.
We did make a really greatdecision of us in marrying who
we married 10 or 11 years ago.
So Adam not only married awoman who became a rabbinate but
is also a lawyer, and I marriedsomeone who is a town planner
(41:42):
and both those turns outincredibly useful when you're
trying to register a new school.
so we've been working very hardon submitting our application to
register a new school with the,the RA, which we've just done,
and that's like an ongoingprocess about the evidence
needed and this, that and theother and planning applications,
and I think the document wesubmitted was like 470 pages to
(42:04):
them on the 30th of June.
So that was a big achievementalready, but it just keeps going
, which is glorious.
For the first probably twoyears we're going to be at a
beautiful, beautiful mid-centurypalace it feels to me called
the Stiebel, which is now theSchuyl, which does beautiful
life cycle events, and thisbuilding itself is just so
(42:25):
gorgeous.
It's in Caulfield East.
It originally was built as acasino because it's right next
to the race course.
The Caulfiel Love it and solike velvet wallpaper and like
raw silk curtains and parquetryfloor and there's a bar and like
we will make it into a school.
It's great.
But again, because it's such asmall place, a small school, we
(42:45):
actually don't need to build bigempty grey classrooms.
It actually is perfect thatthere's a little library that
can sit 10 kids, like amazing,that's where we're going to do
our English lessons and thatthere are two you know
classrooms Amazing, that's ourmaths and science room.
So that works beautifully andthat's been a really gorgeous
process of getting to know lotsof different places in the
community and talking to lots ofshuls from lots of different
(43:08):
denominations who wanted us tohold our school there.
They wanted of shuls from lotsof different denominations who
wanted us to hold our schoolthere.
They wanted to be our premises,especially for the first few
years, which was absolutelyglorious.
So working on that process isdefinitely another big part of
it and we've really enjoyed.
We've had a lot of teachersreach out to us and we haven't
even listed any job ads oranything like that.
So that's been wonderful andthat would be the next part of
(43:29):
our process.
But, again, because we're onlyopening with 20 students and not
seeking 60 enrollments in thefirst year, if it were up to us
we would start with 10, but thevrqa requires us to have 20
we'll open prep to grade 3 andso, yeah, we're looking at 20
kids, which means reallythere'll only be like two
lessons happening at once, soyou can actually manage it with
two or three part-time staff,which is wonderful what else?
(43:50):
would you add about what'sneeded to start a school?
Speaker 4 (43:53):
there are so many challenges and I'm really
grateful to the people that helpus along the way.
We found a new schoolconsultant who's really guide us
through the process.
But I guess I've learnedthrough this process of starting
a school that if you get boggeddown in all the challenges it
makes it really hard to start,and I've I've really learned to
(44:13):
just take things one piece at atime and not try to answer
everything all at once.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
Take things one piece at a time, Just watching Adam
and all of what he's beenmanaging and thinking about and
just how intense and, you know,laborious the process is to
start a school.
It really is a case of intutsuenzo agata, Like he has to keep
willing it in order to make itnot a dream, and he actually
received some advice from JohnMarsden, who passed away last
(44:38):
year.
Sadly, Adam's got it printedout in his kitchen and it
basically just says just startthe bloody thing.
Like in 10 years it'll be evenharder.
So just start.
So I feel grateful for all ofthe thinking and preparation
that's gone into it and I just,I so believe in what this type
of school can offer and I so cansee that there's a hunger for
(45:00):
it in the community and itdoesn't need to be, I'm sure,
growing up in, certainly inprogressive schools.
This is a big story that I heardmany times the story of someone
walking along the beach andthere's millions of starfish
washed up on the beach andthey're throwing individual
starfish back into the water andsomeone walks up to this woman
who's throwing the starfish backin and they're like you're
never going to get all of thestarfish, Like why are you
(45:22):
wasting your time, it's nevergoing to make a difference.
And she picks up a starfish,throws it in and she says it's
going to make a difference tothat starfish.
We're not planning on worlddomination, we're not going to
have a multi-layer high schoolthing, but it is going to make a
difference to the 50 or so kidsthat come through our doors and
that is really powerful andwe've seen what a difference it
can make and that's worth all ofthe late nights and all of the
(45:44):
documentation and all the thingslike that's just detail.
We know what we're doing andit's for the right reasons, so
we're happy to do the work.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Wow, thank you so much for chatting with us today.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
Thank you, guys, best of luck throwing your starfish
into the ocean.
I'm so excited to interview youin a year or two years time to
have a check-in, see how you'regoing.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
Amazing, you can come for the opening of the queen
esther wing of the new building.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
I'll be there, amazing thanks, thanks guys,
amazing, you can come for theopening of the Queen Esther wing
of the new building.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
I'll be there.
Amazing Thanks guys.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Thanks, guys.
That was our interview withAdam Hyman and Eleanor
Hasenfratz from BatehillowCommunity School in Melbourne,
australia, and that's it forthis week.
You've been listening to AShame to Admit with me, dash
Lawrence week You've beenlistening to.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
A Shame to Admit, with me Dash Lawrence and me
Tammy Sussman, future CEO ofEsther Academy School of Krav
Maga and Mixed Martial Arts.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
If you like the podcast, forward it to a mate.
Tell them it's even moreenjoyable than a Vegemite
sandwich.
Plain white bread, lots ofbutter.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
As always, thanks for your support and look out for
us next week.
Thank you.
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