May 12, 2025 • 39 mins
Jewish educator and meme queen Shoshana Gottlieb aka @jewishmemesonly joins Tami in the studio to answer questions from a non-Jewish person. Except that non-Jewish person didn’t show up (dw, not in an anti-semitic way, she just had a last minute crisis). So Tami and Shoshana made lemons into lemonade, turning the episode into a crash course of Jewish texts with lots of Jewcy tangents. You’ll love this one.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Are you ashamed to admit that you went to a Jewish
school for 12 years but don'tknow the difference between
Torah, the five books of Moses,Tanakh, Gemara, Mishnah and the
other one?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Well, you've come to the right place.
I'm Shoshana Gottlieb fillingin for Dash Lawrence, and, in
this special episode of Ashamedto Admit, tammy will be asking
me all the questions you mightbe too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Join Jewish educator and Instagram personality
Shoshana.
You know her as Jewish memesonly Gottlieb as we have a go at
cutting through some seriouslychewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast.
Ashamed to Ask.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Shoshana Gottlieb.
Welcome to the Ashamed to Admit, ashamed to Ask studio.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Thank you so much for having me.
I do appreciate it.
The studio does look a lot likemy apartment.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
I'm not going to lie to you Don't pull back the
curtain, Shoshana.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Okay, sorry.
Lovely to be here in the sameroom with Tammy.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
In this very high-tech studio, yes, in this
very high-tech studio.
Yes, shoshana, before weproceed with today's interview,
dash Lawrence is not here, buthe is here Spiritually, mm-hmm,
and I know that he'll be crankywith me if I don't ask you a
little bit of biographicalinformation, like all the plot
(01:42):
points in your life.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
All of them.
I'm almost 30.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
It's a lot of them just tell our listeners what
they need to know about you andwhat you do and why you do it
sure.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
My name is Shoshana.
I grew up in Sydney.
I have been here my whole life,except for a couple of years
when I lived in Jerusalem.
I went to Kesetora College, soI have been very involved in the
Jewish world for a very longtime.
I wanted to be a writer,screenplay writer, movie person
(02:15):
and then for a lot of reasons,decided it wasn't for me.
But I did decide that Jewisheducation was for me.
But that's like a whole otherpodcast of how I reached that
decision.
So I studied for two years atPardes in Jerusalem.
I'm currently doing my Master'sof Teaching so that I have my
teaching certification forAustralia and I'm a Jewish
(02:36):
educator.
I teach high school 7 to 11Jewish studies.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Shoshana Gottlieb, mame Queen.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Thank you, jewish educator Like I get paid to do
that, yeah, not for theInstagram, not for the queen
role.
The monarchy is is separate,but I do get paid for the
education bit, yeah, but then,like, the reason that I get
asked to do things like podcastsis because I started Jewish
means only at the end of 2019.
I was working at a doctor'soffice at the time and all of a
(03:03):
sudden, I had no one coming inand like nothing to do and I had
all of this free time on myhand and I had internet
connection and like very basicstupid photoshop skills and
everyone in the world was ontheir phone at the same time and
so, like perfect storm ofgaining a very small army of
followers and parlaying thatinto, I talk about Jewish
culture, a lot Jewish texts,learning, all of that stuff Okay
(03:29):
, so that's kind of the barebones necessities, I'd say.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I remember following you when you had like 5,000
followers.
I'm just looking up how manyfollowers you have now.
Do you know the figures off thetop of your head?
31?
32.4.
32.4.
Thousand followers 32.4.
32.4.
Thousand followers yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
And then like a couple.
I'd say like 6,000 on Facebookand then like 14 on.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Twitter While Dash is away and I get to run the show,
which is a little bit scary foreveryone involved.
The format of these episodes isthat we get someone who isn't
Jewish to come into the podcaststudio and ask us questions, but
that guest ghosted us today, soit's just you and me.
(04:16):
You are enough.
In a previous episode that Ico-hosted with Elise Esther
Hurst, playwright, author, thatI co-hosted with Elise Esther
Hurst, playwright, author,community gem co-writer of Yentl
, while we were waiting for ourguest Van Vadum to arrive, we
asked each other what kind ofquestions we were a bit anxious
about getting, and I said that Iwas concerned that I'd get a
(04:40):
textual kind of question,because I know that there are
some books of Moses.
There are five of them.
I couldn't tell you if that wasthe Torah or if that's separate
.
Is that the Torah?
Yeah, the five books.
Okay, what else?
This is my question to you whatelse is in the Torah besides
those five books?
Because there's also Gemara andthen there's also other stuff,
(05:03):
other texts.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
If we want to turn this into a crash course of main
Jewish texts.
I can absolutely do that.
I do it several times a yearfor all of my classes.
Okay, children forget over andover again.
Yeah, so the Torah is the fivebooks.
They're the Torah.
Torah is a scroll that we readin shul right, so it's in scroll
form.
It's in book form.
So you might have heard itreferred to as a chumash as well
(05:26):
.
So a chumash is just the Torah,but printed in a book and bound
and usually has othercommentaries around it from
other people.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
So it's like all synonymous.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
When it's in the scroll, it's the Torah.
So that's the five books, okay,but they are attached to two
other books called Nach, and soit becomes known as Tanach,
standing for Torah, the T, the Nis Navim, or prophets, and the
T sound is for Ketubim, whichmeans writings, extra writings,
(05:57):
okay, and so we believe that theTorah was, or a lot of Jews,
religious Jews, believe that theTorah is God-given.
And then Nach acts more likethe history books and all of
those things together, the threebooks.
Tanakh in the secular world isknown as the Old Testament.
So when you hear Old Testamentthrown around, it's not just the
(06:17):
five books, but it's all ofthose other books as well.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Okay, so the five books are God-given.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Allegedly.
Who's to say, right, okay, whenMoshe goes up Mount Sinai, he's
only receiving the Torah, noneof the other stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
And then there's the other stuff which is, you said,
like the history, the prophets.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
And that's where we get stories like King David,
like Samson and Delilah, jonahand the whale.
That all comes from Nevi'im, orthe prophets, and then Ketuvim,
the later writings.
That's where you get Psalms,that's where you get the story
of Esther, the story of Ruth.
You get Daniel, oh, you getSong of Songs, shur HaShurim.
All comes from Ketuvim, whichis later writings, which are
(07:01):
both the later writings, aresome of its history, or like
perceived as history.
So that's Esther and Ruth andEzra, and like Daniel the late
one.
And then you also have books ofpoetry.
So you've got Psalms, you'vegot oh, you've got Job is thrown
in there, which is not historyor poetry.
You've got Song of Songs.
You've got Eichat likeLamentations, you've got
(07:21):
Ecclesiastes Kohelet, and sothey're like the fun extras.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Okay.
Bonus, yeah.
Bonus round yeah, okay.
This is such a dumb question.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
There are no stupid questions.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Oh, there are.
Trust me.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
No, because I consider this as a Jewish
educator.
Like we throw so much at kids,expecting that their parents are
doing stuff at home as well,but like, as we know, like a lot
of parents don't have theskills themselves to do that and
so, like parents come toparents, come to us.
They're like, why doesn't mykid know how to do kiddish, like
on a Friday night, why don'tthey know those words?
And I'm like, because I have toteach them everything else in
(08:02):
the Jewish world and maybe youcan take the time to do kiddish
on a Friday night.
You know what I mean.
So it's like Jewish kids get somuch thrown at them from so
many different directions.
It's such a broad expanse ofhistory.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah so many intricacies.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
That like it makes sense that there are questions
at our ages, and so there are nostupid questions, because it's
really sometimes really hard toget your head around.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
I'm finding it hard to get my head around the fact
that the five books of Moses areallegedly God-given, but they
were given to Moses.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Huge question that everyone, like all rabbis,
essentially have spoken about.
Okay, and that's the otherthing that I will say.
My other disclaimer if you havea question about the torah,
it's been asked before andanswered, probably by a rabbi,
um, like centuries ago is theanswer that it's just time isn't
linear so the answer is is thatthe rabbis tackle it from
(08:58):
different ways.
Some say that he was given likethe whole thing, like he was
given the information and wroteit down, right, so like he's
like Moses is the scribe, god isdictating it.
But then you get to the pointand this is the part that really
stumps rabbis is that the last,like handful of verses of the
Torah describe Moshe's death.
So how do you have a book thatdescribes someone's death but
(09:22):
allegedly he has written it andthey have to come up with some
like kooky, crazy answers thatare like well, actually,
secretly, his successor, joshuawrites those last ones.
My favorite one is like Moshehimself wrote it but God had an
angel, like cry, onto his faceand so his eyes were blurred and
like he didn't really know whathe was.
(09:42):
Like he was writing it but hewasn't really seeing what he was
writing, kind of vibes like notto give away the ending,
because we have to believe.
We, being like you, knoworthodoxy because Jewish
orthodox people, because a lotof Jews have to believe that
it's God given the rabbis havegone historically, have gone out
of their way to try and likefigure out a logical way that
(10:04):
that works, whereas like moresecular jews or jews in academia
, things like that can talk moreabout the historical element of
the writing and the compilationof the book firstly, I've never
thought of moshe as an authorbefore, and I love that yeah,
best-selling author of all time.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
People have asked me who's your favourite author and
I've never had an answer.
Now I've got one.
Yeah, so that's one win.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Like Ghost Rider right, Because God's dictating
to him.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Secondly, I feel it was obviously Miriam and he just
got credit for it.
Who wrote it?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
down, yeah, no, I mean, I mean, like I love the
theory.
I love the theory becausehistorically, women have been
male, like their husbands andbrothers and whatever like
editors, right.
Like.
That is a thing that's happenedthroughout history.
However, according tohistorical records, miriam
wasn't on the mountain withMoshe and also like wasn't ever
(11:06):
involved in like.
According to the story, likewasn't involved in judicial
stuff, right?
So like wasn't involved in thatpart of his life of like that
kind of leadership.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
But maybe she just wrote the last little chapter
about his death.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Oh no, she was already dead.
She was already dead by thetime he died.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Ah, how do you know?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
that the story tells us that she dies and then Aaron
dies.
It's actually like I think it'sabsolutely heartbreaking
because he's just a guy who,like, loses everyone who's close
to him, and what's reallyinteresting in the text is that,
like his famous wrongdoing isthat and this is like why he
(11:42):
doesn't get to enter the land ofIsrael is he strikes a rock
instead of talking to the rockright, you know that story, I
remember that story, one of thefew stories I remember from
primary school.
Go on and that happens justafter Miriam dies, right so his
older sister dies, we associateMiriam with the well of Miriam,
right so, like, on her behalf,the Jewish people and the
(12:04):
Israelites had water in thedesert, and so she dies and the
well dries up, according to therabbis, and that's why the next
episode is Moshe has to ask arock for water and instead of
asking it and it doesn't work,and he strikes the rock and,
like he gets really frustratedreally quickly and I think,
right like it's so heartbreakinglike his sister, sister's dead,
the symbol of her for thepeople has dried up and he has
(12:28):
to, like find a way forwardwithout someone who has been
like his mentor and his friendthroughout the whole story.
Right, like she watches over himfrom a young age, as he's, like
in the Nile, and so, of course,like you're dealing with grief
and all that thing, all of thethings connected to you know the
death of someone close to, andlike so you strike out and you
hit the rock because you'refrustrated and then, ultimately,
(12:49):
he's punished for that, whichis just really sad.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Just take a step back for a second.
You said we associate Miriamwith the well.
It rings a bell, sure, butmaybe I'm confusing it with
Jacob who meets his wife at awell.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Wells are everywhere.
Miriam and the well, as far asI know, is something that the
rabbis come up with.
If your listeners want to factcheck me, that's also fine in
the comments, right?
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Okay, they're your listeners now too.
Yeah, my listeners.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
I think that's all rabbinic about, like that water
connection for the Jewish peopleas far as I know.
But the well is also like arecurring theme, usually a
romantic one, actually like aplace of meeting throughout the
Torah and Tanakh.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
A motif you might say Absolutely there aren't enough
wells these days don't you thinkI mean like?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
I feel like because we figured it out, like because
we have tats.
Okay, I don't yearn for a timewhere I, as a woman, would have
had to, like, walk three miles,fill up a bucket, I mean an
ornamental.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Well, oh, like an ornamental one yes, Sure like,
bring them back.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, might attract some mozzies.
Yeah, I'm scared of still water.
I've seen a lot of TikToks onlike why it's bad you know
You've seen a lot of TikToks onlike why it's bad.
You know You've seen specificTikToks on why still water is
bad or why wells are bad.
No, still water.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Okay, go on.
I couldn't tell you a singlefact about it.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Breeding ground for bacteria.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Yeah, exactly, it's just like I have inherited a
fear of still water and so I'mlike no wells for me, thank you
inherited a fear of still waterand so I'm like no wells for me,
thank you.
I have inherited a fear ofpublic spas from tiktok.
No, from my mother.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Okay, like actual inherited okay, yeah, I'm with
you.
Did you also get this?
Never use a public spa, becausethen you'll get thrash no,
never heard that from my mom.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Okay, my mom kind of like hates that my building has
a communal washing machine justbecause she thinks it's gross
and I'm like you know what Imean.
So like I understand the samekind of like people putting
their soiled things or selvesinto a space that you then have
to share.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
But never like a public bath sitch.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
There was also the story in high school that you
shouldn't use a spa because aguy could jizz in it and because
it's warm, the jizz could stayalive and enter you and get you
pregnant.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
So I'm actually delighted to tell you that that
is a plot point in my favouritetelevision show, glee.
Season one of Glee.
Season one of Glee, quinnFabray is impregnated by someone
who is not her boyfriend,because she cheats on her
boyfriend, finn, and then sheconvinces Finn that it's his
baby because they made out in ahot tub, and that goes on for
(15:41):
half a season, if not more.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Love it so are you telling me?
Speaker 2 (15:45):
it can happen, no she lied to him.
Okay, thank you, it was herexcuse because she had cheated
on him.
Yeah, you were scared for asecond there, though I was.
Oh my God.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Science, oh my God.
I also just want to say thatwhen I lived in an apartment
block in Bondi with a communalwashing machine, I once opened
up the washing machine andsomeone had vomited into it
after a big night.
So your mum's not wrong.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Why would you tell me that that's actually a really
upsetting story?
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Just check.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
You got to check every time, thank God I live in
a very lovely building Lots offamilies, no real parties, so no
vomit it's not like you open upthe washing machine and your
eyes are all blurry becauseyou're Moses on your deathbed
exactly.
I don't have an angel likecrying on my face.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Yeah yeah, do you see what I did there?
I loved it, thank you big fan,yeah, okay, my next question is
a natural progression from whatwe've just talking about.
You know a lot of this stuffbecause you studied at is it a
yeshiva or a seminary?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
I actually studied at both what I would describe as
both, and I also went to a veryreligious school for 13 years
primary and high school which iswhere I credit all of my actual
skills and a lot of myknowledge from.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Okay, so statistically, how many lesbians
were at Sam Ueshiba?
One in three.
What are we talking?
One in five.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
The first one I went to was an all-girls seminary.
It was right after high school.
Of my close group of friendsthat I had from that seminary
that, like I'm still like halfin contact with, I'd say there's
like out of like, let's say,eight girls, four or five are
queer in some way.
As for the yeshiva I went to,which is called pardes, which is
(17:46):
in jerusalem, it is anon-denominational,
co-educational, veryleft-leaning space.
So everyone's gay, everyone issomething, um, and I describe it
as the lesbian capital ofjerusalem because it is because,
like, that's just where, like,if you go to Israel, if you're
(18:08):
gay and you're like they'reeither to study, to connect with
your religion, to connect with,like some, some spirituality,
you go to Jerusalem.
Right, because it's likeeveryone goes a bit crazy in
Jerusalem and because, like,you're searching for a place
where you can study, be gay, allof these things, you're
naturally going to go to Pardes,right, it's one of like very
few options to go to where youcan feel like you're your whole
(18:31):
self in a space and you're notputting aside your queerness or
your politics or things likethat.
Lesbians just love it there,the gay girls.
Poh, dime a dozen, dime a dozenat Pardes.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Cool, I'll add it to the list.
Uh-huh, love it.
Back to what you were talkingabout with writing the five
books of Moses.
Then you said some people saythat his successor, joshua, took
over.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I mean like took over the writing or took over the
leadership, both the leadership.
So I would say Joshua didn'tnecessarily take over the
writing full stop, because hedies in the next book, in the
first book of the end part ofNah.
He dies at the end of the firstbook of that and that book's
called Joshua.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
I don't know much about Joshua.
I just know that a lot ofJewish boys are called Joshua.
Yeah, so he's the first.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
As far as I know, he is Moshe.
So he's actually on Mount Sinaiwith Moshe, what he's further
down the mountain.
That's actually my favourite,because I was learning about the
golden calf.
I was just doing some funreading golden calf, yeah, and
when Moshe's coming back downthe mountain like to be
surprised that the Jews are nowworshipping an idol.
(19:47):
He's walking with Yeshua andhe's like having dialogue with
him, where Yeshua's like I'mhearing something, I don't know
what it is, it sounds like war.
And Moshe's like no, it's notwar.
And so like he appears a bunchof times as Moshe's successor in
the Torah, and then when Moshedies, and then Moshe like and
then when Moshe dies, and thenMoshe like sort of there's like
a ceremonial imparting ofleadership onto Yeshua or Joshua
(20:09):
.
And then the second book is himleading the Israelites into the
land of Israel and conqueringthe land from, like the
Canaanites and the differentpeople who lived there.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
This is news to me.
Was anyone else on the mountainfurther down?
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Not that I know of.
So like people walk Moshe tothe base of the mountain right
and then him and Yeshua go upand as far as I know, yeshua
like doesn't go all the way up,he like also stops halfway down.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
That's like my style Stop halfway, don't fully commit
, get a bit tired and arthritic.
I'll stay on this rock.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
You go the rest of the way 100%.
That's me as well.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yehoshua had autoimmune arthritis.
He was the beginning of it all.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
So you could probably write about that and someone
would be like, yes, I have proofto back that up.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Who was after Yehoshua then?
Fantastic question.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
So, after the book of Yeshua, we have the book of
Shoftim, or judges, and we entera period of Jewish history
where there's no one set leader,right, so, like, moshe and
Yeshua command the entire people.
And then we enter this point ofwe have certain judges who, at
different points in history,rise up because, like the Jews,
need saving.
And so the most famous exampleprobably, of a judge is Deborah,
(21:27):
or Deborah right.
She's the only female judgementioned, super famous.
We love her.
Samson is one of the later ones, but it's also considered not
really a great one, if we'rebeing honest.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Because he was too concerned about his hair.
He was conceited.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
He was really arrogant in a way.
That does not serve a leader ofthe Jewish people.
Right, we're all about humilityin our leadership, are we?
We try that's like Moshe'swhole thing.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
I was thinking modern day On modern day, no, no.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I have something I want to actually talk about.
Okay, that's connected tohumble leadership, okay, and I
want to pose this question toyou for the statement and to
your listeners, our listenerscollectively Well done.
I think that there is a type ofrabbi who grew up religious,
wanted to be famous in some way,knew that it's really hard to
(22:23):
crack into the business and keepShabbat, keep kosher, all that
stuff, and so settles for beinga rabbi.
I want you to think in yourhead of a rabbi who uses a
pulpit like a stage.
Right that Zavah Torah is anAcademy Award speech every week.
(22:43):
Right, it's like everything.
And I think social media hasspeech every week, right, it's
like everything, and I thinksocial media has made it worse,
right, like because their stagehas expanded beyond just their
pulpit audience, but like theycan expand into the rest of the
world.
And I think it's like anepidemic we're facing of Jewish
men who, like, who crave fameand who turn to being a rabbi
(23:07):
for that, and I think that's abad mix, because your rabbi
should be seeking to like, goviral.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Is that such a bad thing if they're charismatic and
bring more people into thecommunity?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I think there's a difference between charisma and
like trying to go viral, yeah,which is what a lot of people do
, right, like you know whensomeone's in the biz, right,
whether it's showbiz orapparently um rabbinical biz.
Like you know when they'rethere to be famous, as opposed
to like a love for the craftright, you know what I mean.
(23:39):
Like they're just like poppingout song after song, like
they're doing what's whatever'scatchy, because like they need
that 15 minutes.
Yeah, and I feel like you cantell when a rabbi like the first
thing that they have on theirmind is will people like me
after this speech, as opposed tohow do I serve my community?
Speaker 1 (23:57):
right, yeah, okay, I'm thinking of a few.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, yeah, we both drop in the comments below.
Which sydney rabbis?
Or melbourne or melbourne,that's true.
Brisbane, do they have one?
Or adelaide I?
Speaker 1 (24:14):
said perth had like three no, the only thing that
I've really thought about interms of rabbis and their
intentions or their career pathsis I have a theory that surely
a high percentage of them don'tactually believe in God or are
not religious, but they have acertain set of skills community
(24:39):
leadership.
They kind of want to bebusiness owners Interesting.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I can see that being a thing.
I think there's a lot ofreligious Jews who secretly
don't actually believe in God,because I think it is possible
to be like physically,functionally, a religious Jew.
Right, you're doing, you'regoing through the motions,
shabbat, kosher, you dress acertain way, you do certain
things.
It doesn't like permeate yoursoul.
(25:05):
Yes, you don't have aconnection to god because you
haven't had to do any of thethinking or feeling associated
with like searching, gonethrough the motions your whole
life.
Yeah, like, I think for a lotof religious people, like god is
the reason for everything, butgod is always like like god's
there at the forefront.
You know what I mean.
I've been thinking about that alot for like a really long time
(25:27):
of how many of these peoplelike genuinely can say they love
god, and how many people arethere because they're trapped
there right, because, likethey're scared of what's outside
of that community and ofreckoning with that.
How many people do it becausethey like it, they love their
community, but like they don'tactually connect with the
(25:49):
spirituality of it, and that'sokay, yeah, 100.
I'm just curious because, like,yeah, it's something that I've
reckoned with for a really longtime I would love to love god.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
do you believe in god ?
I was gonna ask you do you lovegod?
No one's ever asked me if Ilove God.
People have asked me if Ibelieve in God, like when I'm
talking to secular people aboutit.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
I start with the belief thing first, because I
think that there has to be alevel of knowing before you can
love something right?
Yeah, like, do you think youknow or believe in?
Speaker 1 (26:19):
God.
I want to believe in God.
I believe in something more.
I think there are multiples outthere.
I don't think it's one God.
Yeah, and definitely not a Godwith the old man voice.
That's in all the old movies wehad to watch in primary school.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Yeah Well, can I give you my pitch for God first?
Yes, okay.
So my pitch for God is, firstly, I think that, like everyone
thinks that Judaism's conceptionof God or a lot of people think
Judaism's conception of God isthe old man that we learn about
in primary school, right, that,and like the Simpsons, god right
has five, is just taller thanthe average man and like has a
(27:05):
deep voice.
I think that, just the same waythat, like, the maths that you
learn in year five is differentto the maths that you learn in
year seven and eight and nineand ten, right, it gets more
complex the older you getbecause you have to expose
yourself to more understandingsthat there's more out there in
terms of how I understandmathematics.
And then, when you get touniversity, it's even crazier.
You have to be constantlythinking about, rethinking about
(27:29):
conceptions of God.
Because my God isn't a man inthe sky either, right, my God
isn't, like not bound to gender,because, like, it's not a
physical being in any way.
And there's, I think, two waysthat I think about God.
One is a very Hasid ways that Ithink about God.
One is a very Hasidic way ofthinking about God, like it's
very it's my Chabad roots comingout and that is God as, like a
(27:54):
penentheistic being right, likein Chabad Hasidic, you've
learned that everything in theworld has a spark within it,
like a godly spark.
So, like inanimate objects havea certain level of godliness
within it that allow it to existin a world like created by God.
Plants and vegetation have thatsecond level of godliness
within it, right, because it'sinanimate but it grows and it
(28:15):
breathes and it changes.
Animals have another step ofgodliness and then humanity has
like that final, like thehighest step of godliness that
you can achieve, like the sparkwithin you, right, that innate
thing.
And so for me, godliness is thething that connects us right to
one another.
Right, for humans, it's ourintellect connects us.
(28:37):
That is godliness.
Be right Like there is a love,like because we can feel love
for animals.
There is a godliness there,right, because I can respect the
animal kingdom the same waywhen I look at nature and I can
appreciate, like the beauty ofnature.
So there is godlinesseverywhere, and part of
worshipping or believing orbeing in relationship with God
(29:00):
is respecting and interactingwith the world around me.
Right, being nice to anotherperson is me believing in god,
because I believe that thatperson has inherent worth
because they have godlinesswithin them.
Right, god isn't the thing thatsits above us and, like,
commands us, but god is thething that connects us and runs
through us and makes waysbetween us, exactly, makes us a
(29:22):
part of the world around us.
So that's my first pitch forGod.
Okay, god is connected betweenall things, like the godly spark
.
Everything can be worshipped ina certain way, right?
That's why religious people,before they take a bite of an
apple, they'll say a brach on it, right, they'll bless the apple
and bite it because you're,like, emphasising the godliness
in that thing, you into thegodly object that it can be,
(29:43):
you're giving it that sense ofholiness.
The second one, actually, isconnected to a story in the
Tanakh.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
I'm not going to assume, but I know that you've
heard of Eliyahu Hanavi.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Eliyahu.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Hanavi Big guy.
He's the same Eliyahu fromPassover, mm-hmm yeah.
He's a prophet, yeah, whichmeans he is a messenger from God
, mm-hmm yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
He's a prophet, yeah, which means he is a messenger
from.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
God, mm-hmm, and I know that at the Passover Seder
we leave a space for him, but hecontinually ghosts us.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yeah, the ghost who visits and gets drunk right like
ghostly Santa for the Jews.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Okay, that is all I know.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Like fantastic.
On point, eliyahu is huge inthe Talmud and sort of Talmudic
literature.
Okay, wait, what's Talmud?
Okay, talmud is a mixture.
It's the term that's used todescribe the Mishnah and the
Gemara together, uh-huh.
But the Talmud refers torabbinic writings, which are
(30:53):
both stories, but mostly justlaw that has been written during
the rabbinic era.
And the writing down of theMishnah, I think, is around like
0 AD, right Like the time ofChrist, and just after like
those couple hundred years afterthat, the Talmud is only
codified and again, I'mdefinitely getting all of this
wrong.
So I implore people to factcheck me.
As far as I know, the Tal wouldhave been codified like 400 ce.
(31:17):
So it's all of thesediscussions that rabbis are
having post the destruction ofthe temple and they're
discussing the intricacies oflaw and how we live the law that
has been given to us by moseson sinai, and all of those
discussions and like the deepdiscourse around how we practice
is written down in the Talmud.
Okay, but it also includesstories about the rabbis and the
(31:41):
lives they live.
Talmudic literature is likekind of how people talk about it
.
So Eliyahu is a huge person inTalmudic literature.
He comes up a lot and it's likealways stories of like a small
town needs fish for Shabbat anda beggar comes into town and
needs a place to stay andeveryone welcomes him in and
(32:01):
then magically there's fish forShabbat and that old man that
they welcomed in, that beggarwas actually the ghost of Elijah
.
So he always pops up as thisghost who gives people an
opportunity to do good or givespeople information.
He talks to rabbis sometimesghosts and then like appears in
a lot of medieval folklore inthe same way of like a random
(32:21):
guy comes to town and we have tobe nice to him because that
could be Eliyahu Hanavi who willlike give us something right.
So he's like uses that kind ofmagic guy who appears and grants
a wish and leaves again.
He also appears, like you said,at's Seder, comes for a drink.
He also appears at everycircumcision.
So there's also usually a chairfor Elijah at a Brit Miller at
a circumcision.
(32:42):
So he appears at every year atlike two big points of like
Jewish celebration, but in theTanakh he appears in the Nevi'im
in Prophets.
In the Tanakh he appears inNevi'im in Prophets.
He's kind of like this reallycrabby old man who appears out
of nowhere, right, he doesn'thave like a big origin story.
(33:03):
He just kind of appears on thescene and he tries to get Jews
and Israelites to believe in Godbecause they're currently in an
era of idol worship andidolatry.
In an era of idol worship andidolatry, and he has this really
great story where, like, hecauses fire to come out of the
sky from God and consume anoffering in front of all of
these people, and yet the firecoming out of the sky, like an
(33:26):
objective miracle, doesn't causethem to fully repent and
believe in God, and so he flees.
As he flees, he like begs Godto kill him.
He says I haven't done my job,kill me.
And so he flees.
As he flees, he like begs Godto kill him.
He says I haven't done my job,kill me.
Like let me out, like I wantout of my contract, kind of
vibes.
He then God's like don't bestupid, go walk for a bit.
So he walks for 40 days, right,which is like also this
(33:48):
repetitive theme in, like Moseson Sinai for 40 days, is like
that kind of calling back.
Yeah, and he gets led up to amountain and he's like in this
cave and god says go out of thecave.
And like stand on themountaintop.
So he's standing on themountaintop and like the line is
, and there was like a huge,like an earthquake, and like the
(34:08):
ground shakes the mountain, andit says and god is not in the
earthquake.
And after the earthquake therewas a huge wind and it's like a
whirring wind around around himon the mountaintop, and God is
not in the earthquake.
And after the earthquake therewas a huge wind and it's like a
whirring wind around him on themountaintop, but God is not in
the wind.
And after the wind there's afire, this huge fire that comes
crashing down, consumingeverything, but God is not in
(34:28):
the fire.
And it says and after the fire,it's called the Mamadzaka,
there's a thin, still sound, andlike that's called the mama
zakat, there's a thin, stillsound, and like that's the end
of his vision.
Right, and so what?
What's the text teaching us?
Like, what do we take out of it?
Right, these huge episodes ofgreatness, of majesty, of
miracle, these huge big lifeevents of the earthquake, of a
(34:52):
fire coming down and consumingall the things?
God's not in those things.
Where is god?
Right, it's suggested in thethin still sound, like in the in
between.
And I think one of the things injewish education is we rely on
the big events to solidifyjewish identity.
Right, we have, we're reallygood at camp and at purim and
(35:12):
like all of these celebratorythings where we have like
carnivals, where we have rides,where we like do all these huge
fun, like summer camps, like funactivities, all of these things
.
And yet we're facing acommunity where, like, kids
aren't going to shul, people myage aren't at synagogue for the
most part.
Right, like like we've done adisservice to a lot of young
people for them to think thatthe only time they can feel God
(35:35):
or connected to Judaism oranything is in these huge, fun,
big moments, whereas the textitself tells us where is God?
God's in the in-between, god isin, like those low moments.
God is not in the euphoria thatyou feel.
All the time.
God is in when you're makingbreakfast and like, for some
reason, the bagel tastes so muchbetter today than it did
(35:56):
yesterday and you don't know why.
Right, like that's godliness,right like that little thing, or
last night I was listening to anew album for the first time
and like I kept catching mybreath because I loved it so
much, right, and I was like thisfeels like I've heard it before
, but I know I haven't, and likeit's making me like I can feel
it in my gut.
That's God, right.
That's the in-between where Godis and when you're hanging out
(36:18):
with your friends and like thesun is setting and you all kind
of just stop for a moment,you're like, wow, this is so
beautiful and you're like Idon't want this hangout to end.
That's God, right.
Like there's in-between momentsof beauty that are all around
us and we have to remember that.
Like we don't have to relegateloving God or feeling exposed to
God in those huge big moments,but it's an all the time thing
and that's how you get to lovesomeone, right, right when
(36:39):
you're dating someone, becausewhat you were just describing
was reminding me of yeah,falling in love yeah, right,
it's exactly the same thing.
It's like if you go on one ortwo dates with a person and
they're fantastic, great, you'vegone on two dates with them,
right, right, but you'respending all your time together.
You don't want to leave them,you're lying in bed and just
(36:59):
chatting all the time, right,those moments are more important
for a relationship than a bigdate at a fancy restaurant.
Yeah, it's the intimacy, and Ithink a lot of people don't
understand that a relationshipis something that you have to
build right, like a relationshipwith God isn't just going to
appear out of nowhere and it'ssomething you have to invest
time in, like you have to investinto feeling that thing.
(37:20):
No one asks me if I love Godeither.
By the way, everyone asks me doyou believe in God?
And I'm like yeah.
And the question is like, howdo you know that God exists?
And it's because I feel itright.
How do I know that I love mypartner?
Because I have immense lifealtering love for that person.
How do I love God?
Because I feel it in my boneson a near daily basis.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
That is how you know something exists wow, so much of
what you said was really moving.
But I also just love the factthat people may have tuned into
this interview because theythought we were going to have a
light-hearted chat about comedyand they got this.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
That pleases me my thing is like if you make
someone laugh, they're morelikely to listen to you in the
long run.
Yeah, right, and so, like, thisis part of your grand plan,
it's part of my, it's part of myplan, it's part of my whole
shtick with, I guess, with myInstagram, but also, like, like,
because I make you laugh a lot,you're more likely to listen to
me when I have somethingserious to say.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Shoshana Gottlieb.
Thank you so much for joiningme today on a shame to admit
thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
I really appreciate it, and that's it for this week
you've been listening to.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
a shame to ask, a shame to admit sister podcast
with me, tammy Sussman andShoshana Gottlieb, who is
filling in for Dashiell Lawrence.
This episode was mixed andedited by Nick King, with theme
music by Donovan Jenks, if youlike the podcast, leave a
(38:51):
positive review and then followthe Jewish Independent and at
Tammy Sussman.
Bits on Instagram.
You can find Shoshana at JewishMemes Only.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Thank you so much for listening and look out for
another episode next week.
Bye, thank you.
Are you ashamed to admit that you went to a Jewish
school for 12 years but don'tknow the difference between
Torah, the five books of Moses,Tanakh, Gemara, Mishnah and the
other one?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Well, you've come to the right place.
I'm Shoshana Gottlieb fillingin for Dash Lawrence, and, in
this special episode of Ashamedto Admit, tammy will be asking
me all the questions you mightbe too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Join Jewish educator and Instagram personality
Shoshana.
You know her as Jewish memesonly Gottlieb as we have a go at
cutting through some seriouslychewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast.
Ashamed to Ask.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Shoshana Gottlieb.
Welcome to the Ashamed to Admit, ashamed to Ask studio.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Thank you so much for having me.
I do appreciate it.
The studio does look a lot likemy apartment.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
I'm not going to lie to you Don't pull back the
curtain, Shoshana.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Okay, sorry.
Lovely to be here in the sameroom with Tammy.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
In this very high-tech studio, yes, in this
very high-tech studio.
Yes, shoshana, before weproceed with today's interview,
dash Lawrence is not here, buthe is here Spiritually, mm-hmm,
and I know that he'll be crankywith me if I don't ask you a
little bit of biographicalinformation, like all the plot
(01:42):
points in your life.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
All of them.
I'm almost 30.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
It's a lot of them just tell our listeners what
they need to know about you andwhat you do and why you do it
sure.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
My name is Shoshana.
I grew up in Sydney.
I have been here my whole life,except for a couple of years
when I lived in Jerusalem.
I went to Kesetora College, soI have been very involved in the
Jewish world for a very longtime.
I wanted to be a writer,screenplay writer, movie person
(02:15):
and then for a lot of reasons,decided it wasn't for me.
But I did decide that Jewisheducation was for me.
But that's like a whole otherpodcast of how I reached that
decision.
So I studied for two years atPardes in Jerusalem.
I'm currently doing my Master'sof Teaching so that I have my
teaching certification forAustralia and I'm a Jewish
(02:36):
educator.
I teach high school 7 to 11Jewish studies.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Shoshana Gottlieb, mame Queen.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Thank you, jewish educator Like I get paid to do
that, yeah, not for theInstagram, not for the queen
role.
The monarchy is is separate,but I do get paid for the
education bit, yeah, but then,like, the reason that I get
asked to do things like podcastsis because I started Jewish
means only at the end of 2019.
I was working at a doctor'soffice at the time and all of a
(03:03):
sudden, I had no one coming inand like nothing to do and I had
all of this free time on myhand and I had internet
connection and like very basicstupid photoshop skills and
everyone in the world was ontheir phone at the same time and
so, like perfect storm ofgaining a very small army of
followers and parlaying thatinto, I talk about Jewish
culture, a lot Jewish texts,learning, all of that stuff Okay
(03:29):
, so that's kind of the barebones necessities, I'd say.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I remember following you when you had like 5,000
followers.
I'm just looking up how manyfollowers you have now.
Do you know the figures off thetop of your head?
31?
32.4.
32.4.
Thousand followers 32.4.
32.4.
Thousand followers yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
And then like a couple.
I'd say like 6,000 on Facebookand then like 14 on.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Twitter While Dash is away and I get to run the show,
which is a little bit scary foreveryone involved.
The format of these episodes isthat we get someone who isn't
Jewish to come into the podcaststudio and ask us questions, but
that guest ghosted us today, soit's just you and me.
(04:16):
You are enough.
In a previous episode that Ico-hosted with Elise Esther
Hurst, playwright, author, thatI co-hosted with Elise Esther
Hurst, playwright, author,community gem co-writer of Yentl
, while we were waiting for ourguest Van Vadum to arrive, we
asked each other what kind ofquestions we were a bit anxious
about getting, and I said that Iwas concerned that I'd get a
(04:40):
textual kind of question,because I know that there are
some books of Moses.
There are five of them.
I couldn't tell you if that wasthe Torah or if that's separate
.
Is that the Torah?
Yeah, the five books.
Okay, what else?
This is my question to you whatelse is in the Torah besides
those five books?
Because there's also Gemara andthen there's also other stuff,
(05:03):
other texts.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
If we want to turn this into a crash course of main
Jewish texts.
I can absolutely do that.
I do it several times a yearfor all of my classes.
Okay, children forget over andover again.
Yeah, so the Torah is the fivebooks.
They're the Torah.
Torah is a scroll that we readin shul right, so it's in scroll
form.
It's in book form.
So you might have heard itreferred to as a chumash as well
(05:26):
.
So a chumash is just the Torah,but printed in a book and bound
and usually has othercommentaries around it from
other people.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
So it's like all synonymous.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
When it's in the scroll, it's the Torah.
So that's the five books, okay,but they are attached to two
other books called Nach, and soit becomes known as Tanach,
standing for Torah, the T, the Nis Navim, or prophets, and the
T sound is for Ketubim, whichmeans writings, extra writings,
(05:57):
okay, and so we believe that theTorah was, or a lot of Jews,
religious Jews, believe that theTorah is God-given.
And then Nach acts more likethe history books and all of
those things together, the threebooks.
Tanakh in the secular world isknown as the Old Testament.
So when you hear Old Testamentthrown around, it's not just the
(06:17):
five books, but it's all ofthose other books as well.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Okay, so the five books are God-given.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Allegedly.
Who's to say, right, okay, whenMoshe goes up Mount Sinai, he's
only receiving the Torah, noneof the other stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
And then there's the other stuff which is, you said,
like the history, the prophets.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
And that's where we get stories like King David,
like Samson and Delilah, jonahand the whale.
That all comes from Nevi'im, orthe prophets, and then Ketuvim,
the later writings.
That's where you get Psalms,that's where you get the story
of Esther, the story of Ruth.
You get Daniel, oh, you getSong of Songs, shur HaShurim.
All comes from Ketuvim, whichis later writings, which are
(07:01):
both the later writings, aresome of its history, or like
perceived as history.
So that's Esther and Ruth andEzra, and like Daniel the late
one.
And then you also have books ofpoetry.
So you've got Psalms, you'vegot oh, you've got Job is thrown
in there, which is not historyor poetry.
You've got Song of Songs.
You've got Eichat likeLamentations, you've got
(07:21):
Ecclesiastes Kohelet, and sothey're like the fun extras.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Okay.
Bonus, yeah.
Bonus round yeah, okay.
This is such a dumb question.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
There are no stupid questions.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Oh, there are.
Trust me.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
No, because I consider this as a Jewish
educator.
Like we throw so much at kids,expecting that their parents are
doing stuff at home as well,but like, as we know, like a lot
of parents don't have theskills themselves to do that and
so, like parents come toparents, come to us.
They're like, why doesn't mykid know how to do kiddish, like
on a Friday night, why don'tthey know those words?
And I'm like, because I have toteach them everything else in
(08:02):
the Jewish world and maybe youcan take the time to do kiddish
on a Friday night.
You know what I mean.
So it's like Jewish kids get somuch thrown at them from so
many different directions.
It's such a broad expanse ofhistory.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah so many intricacies.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
That like it makes sense that there are questions
at our ages, and so there are nostupid questions, because it's
really sometimes really hard toget your head around.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
I'm finding it hard to get my head around the fact
that the five books of Moses areallegedly God-given, but they
were given to Moses.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Huge question that everyone, like all rabbis,
essentially have spoken about.
Okay, and that's the otherthing that I will say.
My other disclaimer if you havea question about the torah,
it's been asked before andanswered, probably by a rabbi,
um, like centuries ago is theanswer that it's just time isn't
linear so the answer is is thatthe rabbis tackle it from
(08:58):
different ways.
Some say that he was given likethe whole thing, like he was
given the information and wroteit down, right, so like he's
like Moses is the scribe, god isdictating it.
But then you get to the pointand this is the part that really
stumps rabbis is that the last,like handful of verses of the
Torah describe Moshe's death.
So how do you have a book thatdescribes someone's death but
(09:22):
allegedly he has written it andthey have to come up with some
like kooky, crazy answers thatare like well, actually,
secretly, his successor, joshuawrites those last ones.
My favorite one is like Moshehimself wrote it but God had an
angel, like cry, onto his faceand so his eyes were blurred and
like he didn't really know whathe was.
(09:42):
Like he was writing it but hewasn't really seeing what he was
writing, kind of vibes like notto give away the ending,
because we have to believe.
We, being like you, knoworthodoxy because Jewish
orthodox people, because a lotof Jews have to believe that
it's God given the rabbis havegone historically, have gone out
of their way to try and likefigure out a logical way that
(10:04):
that works, whereas like moresecular jews or jews in academia
, things like that can talk moreabout the historical element of
the writing and the compilationof the book firstly, I've never
thought of moshe as an authorbefore, and I love that yeah,
best-selling author of all time.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
People have asked me who's your favourite author and
I've never had an answer.
Now I've got one.
Yeah, so that's one win.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Like Ghost Rider right, Because God's dictating
to him.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Secondly, I feel it was obviously Miriam and he just
got credit for it.
Who wrote it?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
down, yeah, no, I mean, I mean, like I love the
theory.
I love the theory becausehistorically, women have been
male, like their husbands andbrothers and whatever like
editors, right.
Like.
That is a thing that's happenedthroughout history.
However, according tohistorical records, miriam
wasn't on the mountain withMoshe and also like wasn't ever
(11:06):
involved in like.
According to the story, likewasn't involved in judicial
stuff, right?
So like wasn't involved in thatpart of his life of like that
kind of leadership.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
But maybe she just wrote the last little chapter
about his death.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Oh no, she was already dead.
She was already dead by thetime he died.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Ah, how do you know?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
that the story tells us that she dies and then Aaron
dies.
It's actually like I think it'sabsolutely heartbreaking
because he's just a guy who,like, loses everyone who's close
to him, and what's reallyinteresting in the text is that,
like his famous wrongdoing isthat and this is like why he
(11:42):
doesn't get to enter the land ofIsrael is he strikes a rock
instead of talking to the rockright, you know that story, I
remember that story, one of thefew stories I remember from
primary school.
Go on and that happens justafter Miriam dies, right so his
older sister dies, we associateMiriam with the well of Miriam,
right so, like, on her behalf,the Jewish people and the
(12:04):
Israelites had water in thedesert, and so she dies and the
well dries up, according to therabbis, and that's why the next
episode is Moshe has to ask arock for water and instead of
asking it and it doesn't work,and he strikes the rock and,
like he gets really frustratedreally quickly and I think,
right like it's so heartbreakinglike his sister, sister's dead,
the symbol of her for thepeople has dried up and he has
(12:28):
to, like find a way forwardwithout someone who has been
like his mentor and his friendthroughout the whole story.
Right, like she watches over himfrom a young age, as he's, like
in the Nile, and so, of course,like you're dealing with grief
and all that thing, all of thethings connected to you know the
death of someone close to, andlike so you strike out and you
hit the rock because you'refrustrated and then, ultimately,
(12:49):
he's punished for that, whichis just really sad.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Just take a step back for a second.
You said we associate Miriamwith the well.
It rings a bell, sure, butmaybe I'm confusing it with
Jacob who meets his wife at awell.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Wells are everywhere.
Miriam and the well, as far asI know, is something that the
rabbis come up with.
If your listeners want to factcheck me, that's also fine in
the comments, right?
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Okay, they're your listeners now too.
Yeah, my listeners.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
I think that's all rabbinic about, like that water
connection for the Jewish peopleas far as I know.
But the well is also like arecurring theme, usually a
romantic one, actually like aplace of meeting throughout the
Torah and Tanakh.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
A motif you might say Absolutely there aren't enough
wells these days don't you thinkI mean like?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
I feel like because we figured it out, like because
we have tats.
Okay, I don't yearn for a timewhere I, as a woman, would have
had to, like, walk three miles,fill up a bucket, I mean an
ornamental.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Well, oh, like an ornamental one yes, Sure like,
bring them back.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, might attract some mozzies.
Yeah, I'm scared of still water.
I've seen a lot of TikToks onlike why it's bad you know
You've seen a lot of TikToks onlike why it's bad.
You know You've seen specificTikToks on why still water is
bad or why wells are bad.
No, still water.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Okay, go on.
I couldn't tell you a singlefact about it.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Breeding ground for bacteria.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Yeah, exactly, it's just like I have inherited a
fear of still water and so I'mlike no wells for me, thank you
inherited a fear of still waterand so I'm like no wells for me,
thank you.
I have inherited a fear ofpublic spas from tiktok.
No, from my mother.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Okay, like actual inherited okay, yeah, I'm with
you.
Did you also get this?
Never use a public spa, becausethen you'll get thrash no,
never heard that from my mom.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Okay, my mom kind of like hates that my building has
a communal washing machine justbecause she thinks it's gross
and I'm like you know what Imean.
So like I understand the samekind of like people putting
their soiled things or selvesinto a space that you then have
to share.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
But never like a public bath sitch.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
There was also the story in high school that you
shouldn't use a spa because aguy could jizz in it and because
it's warm, the jizz could stayalive and enter you and get you
pregnant.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
So I'm actually delighted to tell you that that
is a plot point in my favouritetelevision show, glee.
Season one of Glee.
Season one of Glee, quinnFabray is impregnated by someone
who is not her boyfriend,because she cheats on her
boyfriend, finn, and then sheconvinces Finn that it's his
baby because they made out in ahot tub, and that goes on for
(15:41):
half a season, if not more.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Love it so are you telling me?
Speaker 2 (15:45):
it can happen, no she lied to him.
Okay, thank you, it was herexcuse because she had cheated
on him.
Yeah, you were scared for asecond there, though I was.
Oh my God.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Science, oh my God.
I also just want to say thatwhen I lived in an apartment
block in Bondi with a communalwashing machine, I once opened
up the washing machine andsomeone had vomited into it
after a big night.
So your mum's not wrong.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Why would you tell me that that's actually a really
upsetting story?
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Just check.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
You got to check every time, thank God I live in
a very lovely building Lots offamilies, no real parties, so no
vomit it's not like you open upthe washing machine and your
eyes are all blurry becauseyou're Moses on your deathbed
exactly.
I don't have an angel likecrying on my face.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Yeah yeah, do you see what I did there?
I loved it, thank you big fan,yeah, okay, my next question is
a natural progression from whatwe've just talking about.
You know a lot of this stuffbecause you studied at is it a
yeshiva or a seminary?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
I actually studied at both what I would describe as
both, and I also went to a veryreligious school for 13 years
primary and high school which iswhere I credit all of my actual
skills and a lot of myknowledge from.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Okay, so statistically, how many lesbians
were at Sam Ueshiba?
One in three.
What are we talking?
One in five.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
The first one I went to was an all-girls seminary.
It was right after high school.
Of my close group of friendsthat I had from that seminary
that, like I'm still like halfin contact with, I'd say there's
like out of like, let's say,eight girls, four or five are
queer in some way.
As for the yeshiva I went to,which is called pardes, which is
(17:46):
in jerusalem, it is anon-denominational,
co-educational, veryleft-leaning space.
So everyone's gay, everyone issomething, um, and I describe it
as the lesbian capital ofjerusalem because it is because,
like, that's just where, like,if you go to Israel, if you're
(18:08):
gay and you're like they'reeither to study, to connect with
your religion, to connect with,like some, some spirituality,
you go to Jerusalem.
Right, because it's likeeveryone goes a bit crazy in
Jerusalem and because, like,you're searching for a place
where you can study, be gay, allof these things, you're
naturally going to go to Pardes,right, it's one of like very
few options to go to where youcan feel like you're your whole
(18:31):
self in a space and you're notputting aside your queerness or
your politics or things likethat.
Lesbians just love it there,the gay girls.
Poh, dime a dozen, dime a dozenat Pardes.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Cool, I'll add it to the list.
Uh-huh, love it.
Back to what you were talkingabout with writing the five
books of Moses.
Then you said some people saythat his successor, joshua, took
over.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I mean like took over the writing or took over the
leadership, both the leadership.
So I would say Joshua didn'tnecessarily take over the
writing full stop, because hedies in the next book, in the
first book of the end part ofNah.
He dies at the end of the firstbook of that and that book's
called Joshua.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
I don't know much about Joshua.
I just know that a lot ofJewish boys are called Joshua.
Yeah, so he's the first.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
As far as I know, he is Moshe.
So he's actually on Mount Sinaiwith Moshe, what he's further
down the mountain.
That's actually my favourite,because I was learning about the
golden calf.
I was just doing some funreading golden calf, yeah, and
when Moshe's coming back downthe mountain like to be
surprised that the Jews are nowworshipping an idol.
(19:47):
He's walking with Yeshua andhe's like having dialogue with
him, where Yeshua's like I'mhearing something, I don't know
what it is, it sounds like war.
And Moshe's like no, it's notwar.
And so like he appears a bunchof times as Moshe's successor in
the Torah, and then when Moshedies, and then Moshe like and
then when Moshe dies, and thenMoshe like sort of there's like
a ceremonial imparting ofleadership onto Yeshua or Joshua
(20:09):
.
And then the second book is himleading the Israelites into the
land of Israel and conqueringthe land from, like the
Canaanites and the differentpeople who lived there.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
This is news to me.
Was anyone else on the mountainfurther down?
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Not that I know of.
So like people walk Moshe tothe base of the mountain right
and then him and Yeshua go upand as far as I know, yeshua
like doesn't go all the way up,he like also stops halfway down.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
That's like my style Stop halfway, don't fully commit
, get a bit tired and arthritic.
I'll stay on this rock.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
You go the rest of the way 100%.
That's me as well.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yehoshua had autoimmune arthritis.
He was the beginning of it all.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
So you could probably write about that and someone
would be like, yes, I have proofto back that up.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Who was after Yehoshua then?
Fantastic question.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
So, after the book of Yeshua, we have the book of
Shoftim, or judges, and we entera period of Jewish history
where there's no one set leader,right, so, like, moshe and
Yeshua command the entire people.
And then we enter this point ofwe have certain judges who, at
different points in history,rise up because, like the Jews,
need saving.
And so the most famous exampleprobably, of a judge is Deborah,
(21:27):
or Deborah right.
She's the only female judgementioned, super famous.
We love her.
Samson is one of the later ones, but it's also considered not
really a great one, if we'rebeing honest.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Because he was too concerned about his hair.
He was conceited.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
He was really arrogant in a way.
That does not serve a leader ofthe Jewish people.
Right, we're all about humilityin our leadership, are we?
We try that's like Moshe'swhole thing.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
I was thinking modern day On modern day, no, no.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I have something I want to actually talk about.
Okay, that's connected tohumble leadership, okay, and I
want to pose this question toyou for the statement and to
your listeners, our listenerscollectively Well done.
I think that there is a type ofrabbi who grew up religious,
wanted to be famous in some way,knew that it's really hard to
(22:23):
crack into the business and keepShabbat, keep kosher, all that
stuff, and so settles for beinga rabbi.
I want you to think in yourhead of a rabbi who uses a
pulpit like a stage.
Right that Zavah Torah is anAcademy Award speech every week.
(22:43):
Right, it's like everything.
And I think social media hasspeech every week, right, it's
like everything, and I thinksocial media has made it worse,
right, like because their stagehas expanded beyond just their
pulpit audience, but like theycan expand into the rest of the
world.
And I think it's like anepidemic we're facing of Jewish
men who, like, who crave fameand who turn to being a rabbi
(23:07):
for that, and I think that's abad mix, because your rabbi
should be seeking to like, goviral.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Is that such a bad thing if they're charismatic and
bring more people into thecommunity?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I think there's a difference between charisma and
like trying to go viral, yeah,which is what a lot of people do
, right, like you know whensomeone's in the biz, right,
whether it's showbiz orapparently um rabbinical biz.
Like you know when they'rethere to be famous, as opposed
to like a love for the craftright, you know what I mean.
(23:39):
Like they're just like poppingout song after song, like
they're doing what's whatever'scatchy, because like they need
that 15 minutes.
Yeah, and I feel like you cantell when a rabbi like the first
thing that they have on theirmind is will people like me
after this speech, as opposed tohow do I serve my community?
Speaker 1 (23:57):
right, yeah, okay, I'm thinking of a few.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, yeah, we both drop in the comments below.
Which sydney rabbis?
Or melbourne or melbourne,that's true.
Brisbane, do they have one?
Or adelaide I?
Speaker 1 (24:14):
said perth had like three no, the only thing that
I've really thought about interms of rabbis and their
intentions or their career pathsis I have a theory that surely
a high percentage of them don'tactually believe in God or are
not religious, but they have acertain set of skills community
(24:39):
leadership.
They kind of want to bebusiness owners Interesting.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I can see that being a thing.
I think there's a lot ofreligious Jews who secretly
don't actually believe in God,because I think it is possible
to be like physically,functionally, a religious Jew.
Right, you're doing, you'regoing through the motions,
shabbat, kosher, you dress acertain way, you do certain
things.
It doesn't like permeate yoursoul.
(25:05):
Yes, you don't have aconnection to god because you
haven't had to do any of thethinking or feeling associated
with like searching, gonethrough the motions your whole
life.
Yeah, like, I think for a lotof religious people, like god is
the reason for everything, butgod is always like like god's
there at the forefront.
You know what I mean.
I've been thinking about that alot for like a really long time
(25:27):
of how many of these peoplelike genuinely can say they love
god, and how many people arethere because they're trapped
there right, because, likethey're scared of what's outside
of that community and ofreckoning with that.
How many people do it becausethey like it, they love their
community, but like they don'tactually connect with the
(25:49):
spirituality of it, and that'sokay, yeah, 100.
I'm just curious because, like,yeah, it's something that I've
reckoned with for a really longtime I would love to love god.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
do you believe in god ?
I was gonna ask you do you lovegod?
No one's ever asked me if Ilove God.
People have asked me if Ibelieve in God, like when I'm
talking to secular people aboutit.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
I start with the belief thing first, because I
think that there has to be alevel of knowing before you can
love something right?
Yeah, like, do you think youknow or believe in?
Speaker 1 (26:19):
God.
I want to believe in God.
I believe in something more.
I think there are multiples outthere.
I don't think it's one God.
Yeah, and definitely not a Godwith the old man voice.
That's in all the old movies wehad to watch in primary school.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Yeah Well, can I give you my pitch for God first?
Yes, okay.
So my pitch for God is, firstly, I think that, like everyone
thinks that Judaism's conceptionof God or a lot of people think
Judaism's conception of God isthe old man that we learn about
in primary school, right, that,and like the Simpsons, god right
has five, is just taller thanthe average man and like has a
(27:05):
deep voice.
I think that, just the same waythat, like, the maths that you
learn in year five is differentto the maths that you learn in
year seven and eight and nineand ten, right, it gets more
complex the older you getbecause you have to expose
yourself to more understandingsthat there's more out there in
terms of how I understandmathematics.
And then, when you get touniversity, it's even crazier.
You have to be constantlythinking about, rethinking about
(27:29):
conceptions of God.
Because my God isn't a man inthe sky either, right, my God
isn't, like not bound to gender,because, like, it's not a
physical being in any way.
And there's, I think, two waysthat I think about God.
One is a very Hasid ways that Ithink about God.
One is a very Hasidic way ofthinking about God, like it's
very it's my Chabad roots comingout and that is God as, like a
(27:54):
penentheistic being right, likein Chabad Hasidic, you've
learned that everything in theworld has a spark within it,
like a godly spark.
So, like inanimate objects havea certain level of godliness
within it that allow it to existin a world like created by God.
Plants and vegetation have thatsecond level of godliness
within it, right, because it'sinanimate but it grows and it
(28:15):
breathes and it changes.
Animals have another step ofgodliness and then humanity has
like that final, like thehighest step of godliness that
you can achieve, like the sparkwithin you, right, that innate
thing.
And so for me, godliness is thething that connects us right to
one another.
Right, for humans, it's ourintellect connects us.
(28:37):
That is godliness.
Be right Like there is a love,like because we can feel love
for animals.
There is a godliness there,right, because I can respect the
animal kingdom the same waywhen I look at nature and I can
appreciate, like the beauty ofnature.
So there is godlinesseverywhere, and part of
worshipping or believing orbeing in relationship with God
(29:00):
is respecting and interactingwith the world around me.
Right, being nice to anotherperson is me believing in god,
because I believe that thatperson has inherent worth
because they have godlinesswithin them.
Right, god isn't the thing thatsits above us and, like,
commands us, but god is thething that connects us and runs
through us and makes waysbetween us, exactly, makes us a
(29:22):
part of the world around us.
So that's my first pitch forGod.
Okay, god is connected betweenall things, like the godly spark
.
Everything can be worshipped ina certain way, right?
That's why religious people,before they take a bite of an
apple, they'll say a brach on it, right, they'll bless the apple
and bite it because you're,like, emphasising the godliness
in that thing, you into thegodly object that it can be,
(29:43):
you're giving it that sense ofholiness.
The second one, actually, isconnected to a story in the
Tanakh.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
I'm not going to assume, but I know that you've
heard of Eliyahu Hanavi.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Eliyahu.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Hanavi Big guy.
He's the same Eliyahu fromPassover, mm-hmm yeah.
He's a prophet, yeah, whichmeans he is a messenger from God
, mm-hmm yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
He's a prophet, yeah, which means he is a messenger
from.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
God, mm-hmm, and I know that at the Passover Seder
we leave a space for him, but hecontinually ghosts us.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yeah, the ghost who visits and gets drunk right like
ghostly Santa for the Jews.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Okay, that is all I know.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Like fantastic.
On point, eliyahu is huge inthe Talmud and sort of Talmudic
literature.
Okay, wait, what's Talmud?
Okay, talmud is a mixture.
It's the term that's used todescribe the Mishnah and the
Gemara together, uh-huh.
But the Talmud refers torabbinic writings, which are
(30:53):
both stories, but mostly justlaw that has been written during
the rabbinic era.
And the writing down of theMishnah, I think, is around like
0 AD, right Like the time ofChrist, and just after like
those couple hundred years afterthat, the Talmud is only
codified and again, I'mdefinitely getting all of this
wrong.
So I implore people to factcheck me.
As far as I know, the Tal wouldhave been codified like 400 ce.
(31:17):
So it's all of thesediscussions that rabbis are
having post the destruction ofthe temple and they're
discussing the intricacies oflaw and how we live the law that
has been given to us by moseson sinai, and all of those
discussions and like the deepdiscourse around how we practice
is written down in the Talmud.
Okay, but it also includesstories about the rabbis and the
(31:41):
lives they live.
Talmudic literature is likekind of how people talk about it
.
So Eliyahu is a huge person inTalmudic literature.
He comes up a lot and it's likealways stories of like a small
town needs fish for Shabbat anda beggar comes into town and
needs a place to stay andeveryone welcomes him in and
(32:01):
then magically there's fish forShabbat and that old man that
they welcomed in, that beggarwas actually the ghost of Elijah
.
So he always pops up as thisghost who gives people an
opportunity to do good or givespeople information.
He talks to rabbis sometimesghosts and then like appears in
a lot of medieval folklore inthe same way of like a random
(32:21):
guy comes to town and we have tobe nice to him because that
could be Eliyahu Hanavi who willlike give us something right.
So he's like uses that kind ofmagic guy who appears and grants
a wish and leaves again.
He also appears, like you said,at's Seder, comes for a drink.
He also appears at everycircumcision.
So there's also usually a chairfor Elijah at a Brit Miller at
a circumcision.
(32:42):
So he appears at every year atlike two big points of like
Jewish celebration, but in theTanakh he appears in the Nevi'im
in Prophets.
In the Tanakh he appears inNevi'im in Prophets.
He's kind of like this reallycrabby old man who appears out
of nowhere, right, he doesn'thave like a big origin story.
(33:03):
He just kind of appears on thescene and he tries to get Jews
and Israelites to believe in Godbecause they're currently in an
era of idol worship andidolatry.
In an era of idol worship andidolatry, and he has this really
great story where, like, hecauses fire to come out of the
sky from God and consume anoffering in front of all of
these people, and yet the firecoming out of the sky, like an
(33:26):
objective miracle, doesn't causethem to fully repent and
believe in God, and so he flees.
As he flees, he like begs Godto kill him.
He says I haven't done my job,kill me.
And so he flees.
As he flees, he like begs Godto kill him.
He says I haven't done my job,kill me.
Like let me out, like I wantout of my contract, kind of
vibes.
He then God's like don't bestupid, go walk for a bit.
So he walks for 40 days, right,which is like also this
(33:48):
repetitive theme in, like Moseson Sinai for 40 days, is like
that kind of calling back.
Yeah, and he gets led up to amountain and he's like in this
cave and god says go out of thecave.
And like stand on themountaintop.
So he's standing on themountaintop and like the line is
, and there was like a huge,like an earthquake, and like the
(34:08):
ground shakes the mountain, andit says and god is not in the
earthquake.
And after the earthquake therewas a huge wind and it's like a
whirring wind around around himon the mountaintop, and God is
not in the earthquake.
And after the earthquake therewas a huge wind and it's like a
whirring wind around him on themountaintop, but God is not in
the wind.
And after the wind there's afire, this huge fire that comes
crashing down, consumingeverything, but God is not in
(34:28):
the fire.
And it says and after the fire,it's called the Mamadzaka,
there's a thin, still sound, andlike that's called the mama
zakat, there's a thin, stillsound, and like that's the end
of his vision.
Right, and so what?
What's the text teaching us?
Like, what do we take out of it?
Right, these huge episodes ofgreatness, of majesty, of
miracle, these huge big lifeevents of the earthquake, of a
(34:52):
fire coming down and consumingall the things?
God's not in those things.
Where is god?
Right, it's suggested in thethin still sound, like in the in
between.
And I think one of the things injewish education is we rely on
the big events to solidifyjewish identity.
Right, we have, we're reallygood at camp and at purim and
(35:12):
like all of these celebratorythings where we have like
carnivals, where we have rides,where we like do all these huge
fun, like summer camps, like funactivities, all of these things
.
And yet we're facing acommunity where, like, kids
aren't going to shul, people myage aren't at synagogue for the
most part.
Right, like like we've done adisservice to a lot of young
people for them to think thatthe only time they can feel God
(35:35):
or connected to Judaism oranything is in these huge, fun,
big moments, whereas the textitself tells us where is God?
God's in the in-between, god isin, like those low moments.
God is not in the euphoria thatyou feel.
All the time.
God is in when you're makingbreakfast and like, for some
reason, the bagel tastes so muchbetter today than it did
(35:56):
yesterday and you don't know why.
Right, like that's godliness,right like that little thing, or
last night I was listening to anew album for the first time
and like I kept catching mybreath because I loved it so
much, right, and I was like thisfeels like I've heard it before
, but I know I haven't, and likeit's making me like I can feel
it in my gut.
That's God, right.
That's the in-between where Godis and when you're hanging out
(36:18):
with your friends and like thesun is setting and you all kind
of just stop for a moment,you're like, wow, this is so
beautiful and you're like Idon't want this hangout to end.
That's God, right.
Like there's in-between momentsof beauty that are all around
us and we have to remember that.
Like we don't have to relegateloving God or feeling exposed to
God in those huge big moments,but it's an all the time thing
and that's how you get to lovesomeone, right, right when
(36:39):
you're dating someone, becausewhat you were just describing
was reminding me of yeah,falling in love yeah, right,
it's exactly the same thing.
It's like if you go on one ortwo dates with a person and
they're fantastic, great, you'vegone on two dates with them,
right, right, but you'respending all your time together.
You don't want to leave them,you're lying in bed and just
(36:59):
chatting all the time, right,those moments are more important
for a relationship than a bigdate at a fancy restaurant.
Yeah, it's the intimacy, and Ithink a lot of people don't
understand that a relationshipis something that you have to
build right, like a relationshipwith God isn't just going to
appear out of nowhere and it'ssomething you have to invest
time in, like you have to investinto feeling that thing.
(37:20):
No one asks me if I love Godeither.
By the way, everyone asks me doyou believe in God?
And I'm like yeah.
And the question is like, howdo you know that God exists?
And it's because I feel itright.
How do I know that I love mypartner?
Because I have immense lifealtering love for that person.
How do I love God?
Because I feel it in my boneson a near daily basis.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
That is how you know something exists wow, so much of
what you said was really moving.
But I also just love the factthat people may have tuned into
this interview because theythought we were going to have a
light-hearted chat about comedyand they got this.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
That pleases me my thing is like if you make
someone laugh, they're morelikely to listen to you in the
long run.
Yeah, right, and so, like, thisis part of your grand plan,
it's part of my, it's part of myplan, it's part of my whole
shtick with, I guess, with myInstagram, but also, like, like,
because I make you laugh a lot,you're more likely to listen to
me when I have somethingserious to say.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Shoshana Gottlieb.
Thank you so much for joiningme today on a shame to admit
thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
I really appreciate it, and that's it for this week
you've been listening to.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
a shame to ask, a shame to admit sister podcast
with me, tammy Sussman andShoshana Gottlieb, who is
filling in for Dashiell Lawrence.
This episode was mixed andedited by Nick King, with theme
music by Donovan Jenks, if youlike the podcast, leave a
(38:51):
positive review and then followthe Jewish Independent and at
Tammy Sussman.
Bits on Instagram.
You can find Shoshana at JewishMemes Only.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Thank you so much for listening and look out for
another episode next week.
Bye, thank you.
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