May 6, 2025 • 48 mins
Award-winning comedian, writer and professional provocateur Sami Shah joins Tami Sussman and Anthony Levin in the studio this week, but he’s not here to answer questions ... he’s here to ask them. In this loose, insightful and hilarious conversation, Sami probes the Anthony and Tami about South East Asian Jews, male circumcision and how they’d like to be buried. Expect laughter, discomfort, surprising insights and a few things you’re definitely ashamed to admit.
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https://thejewishindependent.com.au/the-dads-redefining-jewish-belonging-for-their-kids
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/save-a-seat-at-the-table-for-death
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/unnecessary-alarm-over-circumcision
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in
Australia, the Middle East andthe world at large?
But a little bit ashamed thatyou're barely keeping up to date
.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, you've come to the right place.
I'm Anthony Levin, filling infor Dash Lawrence, and in this
special episode of Ashamed toAdmit your snoodily-doodly third
cousin, tammy Sussman and Iwill be inviting someone who
isn't Jewish to raise all theawkward questions you might be
too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Join me and Anthony as we have a go at cutting
through some seriously chewy anddewy topics.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast.
Ashamed to Ask.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Hello everyone.
Welcome to another installmentIn the Ashamed to Ask studio.
With me today is Anthony Levin.
Hello, hello, thank you forhaving me.
It's my pleasure.
Anthony Levin, award-winningwriter, broadcaster and human
(01:13):
rights lawyer, whose writing hasappeared in the Guardian, men's
Style and Prospect magazine andacademic journals and
anthologies, is that you?
That is me Also a finalist forGovernment Lawyer of the Year in
2024 and a two-time recipientof the John Hennessy Legal
Scholarship for Advocacy onIndigenous Healthcare in Prison.
(01:34):
That's you.
That's not another AnthonyLevin.
That is me.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Who is this swanker I ?
Speaker 1 (01:40):
was going to say who is this underachiever?
You're also heavily involved inHolocaust education.
You're a writer of comedy forstage, film and TV, co-host of
the SBS podcast Grave Matters,which won the best factual
category at the AustralianPodcast Awards in 2024 and the
best weird category at theInternational Signal Awards 2024
(02:06):
.
Anthony, have I missed anything?
Any other identifiers?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
No, thank you very much, Tammy.
Other than to say very proudand doting father and husband,
and I guess I just want to sayyou know, being a dad is
probably my favourite thing, notan achievement, but just
probably one of my favouritething, right?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
now I'd say that's an achievement too, making it
through the first five years.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
That's a whole other episode or a book.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Anthony, who's joining us in the studio today?
Who's asking us all of thechewy dewy, awkward questions?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Well, look, I was intrigued by this format because
it's not clear who's reallykind of steering the ship here.
You invited me on to be a guesthost.
I'm kind of like somewhere in aliminal state between guest and
host, because we've invited oncomedian and writer Sammy Sharpe
to actually sit in theinterrogator's chair, we might
(03:05):
say.
Sammy has been profiled in theNew York Times and ABC's
Australian Story.
He's also appeared on BBC Radio4, bbc Asian Network, tedx, the
Project and the Soho Theatre.
He's a very accomplished man.
Young Sammy wrote and performeda two-part series for BBC Radio
(03:26):
4 called A Beginner's Guide toPakistan and appeared as a
panellist on QI with Stephen Fry.
It's a very, you know,auspicious company there.
Sammy won the award for BestLocal Act at the 2013 Perth
International Comedy Festivaland Best WA Comedy at the 2016
Fringe World.
(03:46):
His autobiography I Migrant Ilove that title, by the way has
been nominated for the New SouthWales Premier's Literary Award
and the Russell Prize for HumourWriting, and we warmly welcome
the very funny sammy shah sammyshah.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Thank you so much for joining us on a shame to admit
sibling podcast.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
A shame to ask thanks so much for having me.
I have many things to ask andI'm never ashamed.
Wow, okay, setting the bar high, I try to Right.
So I'm from Pakistan and Idon't know how aware you are of
Pakistan or Pakistani history oranything like that, but it's
not a country that is known forits friendliness to the Jewish
(04:41):
peoples.
If there was to be a kind of alist of countries that are most
to least anti-Semitic, we woulddefinitely be in the top ones of
most anti-Semitic.
But what was surprising was whenI was growing up, we always had
rumors that there was somewherein Karachi the city I'm from,
which is the biggest city inPakistan somewhere there was a
synagogue that had once beenused.
Never found it, always heard ofit.
(05:02):
It's like a rumored thing.
City I'm from, which is thebiggest city in Pakistan
somewhere there was a synagoguethat had once been used.
Never found it, always heard ofit.
It's like a rumored thing.
There's also a graveyard, aJewish graveyard, there in
Karachi that's been maintained,but I didn't know that there
were Pakistani Jews or SouthAsian Jews until years later
(05:23):
when I met a writer namedMuhammad Hanif.
He's a Pakistani writer.
He went to Israel for aJerusalem, for a literary
conference like a literaryfestival, you know, in the 90s,
and he met a Pakistani Jew overthere from Karachi who came up
to him inside weeping and sayingI haven't met someone from
Karachi since 1948 and thingslike that.
(05:45):
It was an amazing thing.
Is that a known thing that theywere or are South Asian Jews,
tammy?
do you want to jump on this one.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
No, Anthony, you go ahead.
People want to hear from you.
You're a fresh mate on thispodcast.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
That I am.
That's a great description.
So, sammy, because I know alittle bit about your background
, I did a little bit of readingon this.
I confess I don't know a lotabout Pakistani Jewry, but I did
know that there were SouthAsian Jews.
I knew enough to know thatthose communities were small and
when I read into the experienceof Jews in Pakistan, I
(06:23):
immediately cancelled my tripthere, right you know, and I
sought a refund from PakistanAir.
But I did discover that therewas a synagogue and that there
was a community of about 2,500Jews at the turn of the 20th
century.
Okay, so not a sizablecommunity.
(06:43):
And what I learned and I'mreally learning, just like our
listeners might be learningabout this is that when Israel
declared independence in 1948,there was effectively a pogrom
in Karachi where that synagoguewas burned down and Jews were
targeted and attacked, and thatnaturally had an enormous impact
(07:06):
on the willingness of Jews tostay in Pakistan.
So many migrated to Israel andother places after that and
America and the community shrunkand it kind of became, as far
as I understand it, it's likethere's only one Jew in the
village now, kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It reminds me of that storyabout Afghanistan, where there's
I don't know if they're stillthere, but they were doing the
Taliban rule even there were twoJews left in all of Afghanistan
and they both hated each other.
They were kept in separateprisons because they kept
arguing with each other all thetime.
It felt like such a cliche to me.
I've spoken about this before,but the amount of anti-Semitism
(07:47):
that I absorbed growing up inPakistan is something that I
only really became cognizant ofwhen I left the country, and,
like many people, there's thatthing of I'm not anti-Semitic,
I'm anti-Zionist or whateverthat kind of catchphrase becomes
, where it took me a long timeto go.
Am I even qualified to makethat claim, Like I really need
(08:07):
to be introspective about it?
But as a result, there's a lotof stuff that I've absorbed
which I still don't know whetherit is a terrible stereotype or
it's an innocent question.
So here's one.
So I don't know, if you know, mypartner, Kylie, is pregnant and
you know we might have a boy.
And the question I have isbecause circumcisions are
(08:30):
definite, right, I'm, I'm an exMuslim, but I'm still, you know,
ex Muslim enough that I'm, Istill like, prefer a circumcised
penis on a boy over not?
She's obviously Jewish, soshe'd want that as well.
Does the rabbi bite off the tipof that penis?
You know, will I get sued forthis?
Like what is the facts?
(08:52):
There we are in treacherousterritory here.
See, I didn't realize, like Ididn't realize.
This is such a treacherousquestion to ask, then right.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
I guess we just need to be mindful that neither of us
are moyals, so we are nottrained to perform this ritual.
Only one of us, in terms ofTammy and I, have experienced it
, and I wasn't conscious toremember it, but I can speak to
that, and I guess we're notexperts on halakhic law or
(09:23):
practices like that, but we have, I guess, enough lived cultural
experience to have aperspective.
And some listeners may say thisis nonsense, but anyway, my
perspective, I suppose, is thatfrom my research and
understanding over the years, isthat for the most part cultural
(09:43):
Jews or even moderatelyobservant Jews in Australia
would have that ritual performedin a medical environment or by
a medical practitioner.
But it is not withoutcontroversy, of course, because
this is an ancient Jewishpractice and it's touted as, or
described as, our covenant withGod, albeit a covenant that only
(10:05):
pertains to one half of theethnic group, which I find
problematic from a kind of morefeminist point of view.
But there's also questions andthese have been raised in the
legal context, about thelawfulness of the practice.
But both Tasmania andQueensland have published their
law reform commissionsrespectively, have published
(10:26):
reports on the issue and lookingat both its criminal and civil
consequences.
Because I'm a lawyer, thisstuff interests me.
So there's some really vexingissues when the right to
religious freedom and to choosehow you exercise your religious
freedom clashes with the bestinterests of the child, because
(10:46):
this is a non-consensual,non-therapeutic procedure on a
neonate.
So it's very serious and in noother area of the law do we
allow this to happen.
I mean, you will be thrown injail if you tattoo a child of
that age or any age up tomajority really.
But in this area and we talk inthe law about whether a person
(11:10):
is competent a minor can becompetent, capable to consent to
certain things.
But this is not that.
But we allow it because we saythat this is a religious
practice which has a rightfulplace in a democratic society
where people choose how theyexpress their religion.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
I'm not expressing a view on that in particular here,
because I don't think it's theplace, but I think that's what
makes it treacherous, both froman in-group and an out-group
point of view, and that's reallyfascinating to me because, okay
, so like, as I said, muslimsalso circumcise, the same as
Jews, and I always had in myhead that if I ever have a son,
(11:47):
even though I'm not a practicingMuslim anymore, circumcisions
are.
It's just a thing that is notquestionable.
It is definitely going to be athing that my son will also have
.
Why should I be the one tosuffer?
Also, let's be very honest here.
Uncircumcised penises are verygross, but they do.
They look.
They look like they're wearinga sweater made of skin.
(12:07):
It is.
It is just the weirdest lookingthing.
They ruin porn for me.
But what I will say is that whenI came to australia, was the
first time that the question ofthis being a debated subject
even occurred to me that therewas this, you know, conversation
happening that, oh, is itcruelty?
Is it something that we'reinflicting upon children?
(12:28):
Do they have consent to this?
Is this, you know, gentle,mutilation, etc.
Etc.
And someone I was arguing withpoorly, I should add put the
point out where they're likewell, you're against female, you
know, circumcision, for example.
I'm like of course that'shorrific.
She's like why not the boysthen?
Why don't you have the samestandard there and I didn't
really have an answer to that.
(12:49):
But at the same time and it'sreally interesting that at the
same time as an ex-muslim Ican't.
I've let go of so many things.
I eat bacon, right, which againI understand.
Talking to you two jews mightnot be the most you know correct
thing to be saying, but michaelSchaefer is a good friend of
mine and he gave me permissionto rant about this, so it's fine
.
So I've obviously given up alot, but I haven't given up this
(13:11):
one weird archaic.
You know practice and I'm noteven willing to consider giving
that up for some reason.
And I always wonder.
There are so many Jews who arethey're Jewish but they call
themselves atheists before.
That's a very common thing inthe jewish community, like I'm
jewish but I don't believe ingod, like that's a common
refrain.
But is giving up the idea ofcircumcision something that's
(13:34):
still a taboo even for them, youknow?
Are there any non-circumcisedjews?
Speaker 1 (13:40):
I suppose is the weird roundabout question I just
asked yeah, I know of some,I've seen a few, but then again
few dimensions, anthony.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yeah, my son is not circumcised.
We made a very conscious choice.
Okay, my wife is not Jewish,but we are very strongly
cultural in our practices.
We observe as much as we can,capacity permitting, but we made
a choice not to.
And if you want to gettechnical for a moment, there
are, I think, generallyconsidered to be four, or
(14:15):
sometimes five types of FGM,right?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
And one of them what's FGM?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Female genital mutilation.
Okay, thank you.
One of them is the excision ofthe prepuce.
Now, when you talk about malecircumcision, it's the same
tissue that's being excised,okay, and it has a similar
function and it develops fromthe same anatomical foundational
structure in the womb in termsof I just want to point out, by
(14:40):
the way, that when you booked me, I bet you didn't think
excision of the prepuce would bea sentence.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
You'd be saying I really didn't, but that is a
great sentence.
Excision of the prepuce is mynew punk rock band name.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Continue my new punk rock band name is fentanyl by
mouth.
All right, we can duke it outfor best garage band of.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Battle of the bands.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Sounds good?
Yeah, Well, my punk rock bandis Dick Cheese Continue.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Excellent.
I don't think anyone is goingto be necessarily persuaded not
to practice this ancient ritualon the basis that there are
similarities to FGM.
People make moral distinctionsabout these things for all sorts
of reasons.
I don't know that we want totalk about them in this chat
(15:28):
with you, sammy, because thatwould probably consume all of
the oxygen in our rooms, but Ithink it's a really interesting
issue.
I don't have the answer.
I think there is actually areally interesting practice
which I will mention, which Ithink they call a Brit Shalom,
which is where you can do theritual of the circumcision
without any cutting, or you do asymbolic cutting, so you still
(15:51):
observe the covenant, so tospeak, but you don't cut the
skin of the child.
And I tried to find apractitioner who could do this
when my son was born andcouldn't find anyone familiar
with how to do it in Australia.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
You should have called me.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Really.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I'm a LifeStages celebrant and I have, as part of
my package, pun intended.
I have a service that I providecalled Brist no Snip.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I wish I knew that, tammy, it's not too late.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
All right.
So then that comes to the nextquestion I had, which is what's
a Britmila?
What is it?
What happens?
Do I have to have candles?
Is there going to be presents?
Is there a cake?
No cake, what?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
happens, there has to be salmon, even if you're vegan
Salmon.
That's a weird choice.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
That's the only fish I don't actually enjoy.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
All right, okay, that's not written in any formal
text.
Yeah, what is a Brit Mila?
What is a Briss Anthony?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Honestly, I am not qualified to really answer this
question, tammy, you would haveseen.
Have you ever been to any?
I have not, except my own, andit was a riotous affair.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Are there pictures?
Do you?
Do you remember?
Like looking at the pictures,were there 10 people?
Was it just family?
Speaker 2 (17:10):
I believe it was just family and maybe some close
family friends.
I would have to ask my dadabout that.
But, tammy, I'm wondering ifyou've been to a few, because
when I've spoken to some of myjewish female friends, they have
all said that they found itpretty tough and that they kind
of had to look away and thatthey were upset afterwards
because it's like my baby, youknow.
(17:32):
So what's your perspective onthat?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
So I have been to a few, but then again too few to
mention.
No, I have.
I've been to quite a few,mostly out of obligation and
fear of being excommunicated.
So I have not wanted to go, butI've gone.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Yeah, but that's like any wedding invite as well.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Nobody wants to go to a wedding either.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
You go out of obligation and a fear of being
excommunicated.
I love a good wedding.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Out of obligation and also for the kiddush, for the
spread afterwards.
People do it differently.
Some might have it in the homeand they might have, yeah, a
gathering of a lot of peoplewith food and celebration
afterwards.
I find those really difficult.
I spend most of the time cryinginappropriately because the
(18:28):
children do not belong to me,and I should say that there are
some mohelim, mohels, mohelotplural of mohels, mohels and
pediatric surgeons who agreethat having it in the home it
sounds counterintuitive but isin a sense more sterile than in
(18:49):
their rooms where they get a lotof kids with, you know, who
bring in their different germs.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Right, that makes sense actually Interesting yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
And then, as far as I know, in Australia there isn't
a medical rebate or privatehealth doesn't cover that,
because it's a what would youcall it Optional.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Non-therapeutic, not medically indicated, unless it
is, of course, unless the doctorsays it's necessary.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
But what I'm seeing this is becoming a new trend is
to have it done in the rooms ofa pediatric surgeon and done by
someone who is a pediatricsurgeon, because our non-Jewish
listeners Sammy might not beaware that Moyles don't
necessarily have to be pediatricsurgeons.
I know that there's anophthalmologist who does them.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
I thought you were going to say Moyles ain't Moyles
, and copying that old.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
I really thought you were about to say that.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Sorry, tammy.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Wait, sorry.
You said the Moyles can even bean ophthalmologist.
The Moyle is the person whobecause I genuinely have no idea
about the, so the Moyle is theperson who does the SNP, yep,
but wouldn't it make sense forthat to be a paediatric surgeon?
Speaker 2 (20:00):
He said in a very high voice Okay, it would Don't
need to be a paediatric surgeon,it would, he said in a mehaw
voice.
It would Don't need to be.
And it's really a matter ofchoice, isn't it?
The family might choose to doit in a more traditional way, or
they might want that medicaltraining, because there have
been a few publicised cases fromboth Australia and America,
from memory, of mishaps, botchedjobs, yeah, causing serious
(20:21):
harm to the child, requiring,you know, surgery afterwards and
ongoing issues.
So there is a small risk ofthat, that there can be
complications.
And of course, we probablyshould mention, tammy, that the
traditional rule is eight daysafter birth.
That's when it's performed, butthat is not.
I understand that a lot ofpeople will wait a bit longer if
(20:42):
they don't, if that particularobservance isn't as important to
them.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
Isn't that the same for the naming of the child in
the Jewish tradition as well?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yes, so traditionally the boy will not receive a name
until oh so that's the sameceremony.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yes, I did not know that.
All right, interesting, okay,so that helps a lot.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Traditionally, yes, so more and more families in my
circles are choosing to have itdone in paediatric surgeons'
rooms.
This was the case for my nephew.
I was pregnant with a child atthe time.
I went to this particularsurgery to support my sister.
(21:25):
We had a cry together, so I wasanticipating the baby in
hysterics.
And, yeah, I was anticipatingquite a traumatic experience and
it wasn't at all so.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Are you talking about for you or for the baby wasn't
at all, so are you talking?
Speaker 1 (21:43):
about for you or for the baby, for the baby.
He barely cried.
My sister was fine.
Yeah, we had a little cry inthe lead up to it happening.
I was holding her hand and thenit was kind of like an
anti-climax.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Here's the thing that I find interesting is, as far
as I know, medically there's noreason for it, right Like that
whole argument of it's actuallysafer and cleaner.
It turned out wasn'tscientifically accurate correct.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
A lot of those medicalized rationales have been
debunked or thoroughlycritiqued.
Yes, and there are still thosewho prosecute the case that it
is beneficial because it helpspeople to avoid certain kinds of
STDs in certain countries wherethere is less access to
contraception.
So in places like Africa, insome countries where there is
(22:32):
less access to condoms, thereare some studies that suggest
that those with circumcisionhave a lower rate of passing on
or even acquiring those diseases.
But we have to account for thevery simple solution to that,
which is let's find ways toensure that that access to
prophylaxis is higher.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Yeah, and also we just have showers with good
water pressure here.
You know, on the hygiene sideof it.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah.
So I think a lot of thosearguments they persist but they
are not received as strongly.
And even if you look at thepolicy positions of the medical
profession, including the AMAand other bodies, they've
softened their stance on malecircumcision quite a lot over
(23:17):
the last decade and now they aregenerally saying it's a
family's choice but we don'trecommend interesting.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Okay, all right, are we?
Going to spend the wholeepisode talking about dick, or
my next question was going to beabout menu, because that's the
only part I can really controlis what is traditionally served.
You mentioned salmon.
Um, are we just talking about awhole fish, or or what's the
preferred method?
What's the best food you'veeaten at a bris?
What should I be aiming forhere?
Speaker 1 (23:46):
It's very Ashkenormative of me to say
salmon.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
I have never heard that word before in my life but,
I automatically find ithilarious.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I mean maybe a challah, some bagels, some
hummus, everyone wins.
Yeah, I rock a challah, somebagels, some hummus, everyone
wins.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Yeah, I rock a challah.
I can do bagels.
I'm not a fan of hummus, butokay, I'll consider it.
We're catering your son'sbrisket, right now.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Is that what we're doing here?
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Well, I mean, yeah, that's the only thing I'm in
charge of really is the cookingside of things.
And so you know, I'm justwondering what the procedures?
Speaker 1 (24:22):
are you make your own challah?
I've seen as well, Sami.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
I do.
That's my obsession.
I have an Instagram account ifanyone wants to follow.
There's a really famousInstagram guy named the Challah
Prince.
He is phenomenal.
He makes great challahs and Ilearned a lot by watching his
videos.
And then I decided that Ishould be the Kala King.
But because the last name Shahmeans king, so I was like I'm
(24:48):
the Kala Shah.
So if you go on Instagram, kalaShah, that's my account and you
can see my Kala progress there.
Amazing, I don't know, likethat's.
It's one of those things whenyou're having a boy,
particularly in this day and age, there's a lot of things to
think about and a lot of thequestions that come up.
You know, how do you not raisean incel, how do you not turn
him into an Andrew Tatesupporter, and like.
(25:08):
Those are the questions thateveryone's kind of really
grappling with, like now thatwe've seen that show on Netflix,
how do we look at our sons anddo a good job, as opposed to
just, you know, neglecting themas has been done in generations
past?
But to me, those are arbitraryquestions.
The biggest concern I've had assoon as I found out I'm having
a boy is what's the process andprocedures around the
circumcision.
(25:28):
So this doesn't answer a lot ofmy concerns.
Thank you, can I ask?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
you a question, Sami, Because you describe yourself
as an ex-Muslim and you've comefrom a country with such strict
laws about criticizing Islam andyou have a Jewish wife.
How do you intend to kind ofmarry or merge traditions from
the two, Like, for example, canyou be a cultural Muslim?
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Yes, I mean, look, muslims will say no, but I'm
very big on self-definitions.
You know this is.
You don't get to tell me who Iam and how I get to live my life
.
And I consider myself acultural Shia Muslim, you know,
because I'm from the Shia subsetof Islam and my family is a
Shia family, and so you know,for example, I don't believe in
(26:14):
God.
I think religions are marvelousthings that were created by
humans, and that makes it moreexciting to me than the idea of
some glowing guy in the sky.
You know, throwing this down,that's fascinating to me.
I grew up with certain culturalpractices, like I guess Eid is a
big one that I follow, which isa big celebration.
You know.
It's like the Jews haveHanukkah, christians have
Christmas, muslims have Eid.
Everyone kind of has their ownkind of celebration there.
(26:37):
And then the cooking side ofthings, which is, of course,
south Asian but also Muslim,because the food has got those
kind of elements to it and atthe same time, because I grew up
as a Shia Muslim, even though Ino longer believe in the
divinity of it all, I do thinkSunnis can go fuck themselves.
I'm kidding, I'm kidding, ofcourse I don't, but I do a
(27:00):
little bit, but there is.
You know those things.
There's a conversation I hadwith John Safran, actually years
ago, and I was saying howatheist are we?
Because he and I werediscussing our atheism and he's
a Jewish atheist and Muslimatheist and he said we came to
it too late, like we didn't growup as atheists, we weren't born
(27:23):
atheists, right?
So there's some things you'llnever let go of and the example
he gave was so true I still haveit which is karma.
Like I'm obsessed with karma,Like I really think if I do
something bad, something badwill happen to me.
If I treat someone poorly, Iwill be treated poorly.
Like those are things that arescientific fact in my head.
(27:44):
There's a thing in Islam we havecalled Nazar, which is, you
know, when someone is envioustowards you, they put like a bad
juju on you, the evil eye yeah,exactly, evil eye.
Same thing.
And like Kylie will tell youhow embarrassingly hard I
believe in Nazar, where, like,the way to ward off Nazar is you
sacrifice a black goat anddistribute the meat to poor
(28:04):
people.
I can't do it in Melbourne.
People look at me funny when Ido it.
So I send money to Pakistan formy family to have a goat
sacrifice and have the meatdistributed.
But you know, I'm a rational man.
I'm a 46-year-old rational manwith rational beliefs and I
believe in science and thesupremacy of logic and reason.
(28:25):
And I will kill a goat rightnow if I feel like I've got some
bad luck coming my way, like sothere's certain stuff that's
just there, like it's just acultural thing that I'll never
be able to let go of and I'vemade my peace with it.
I enjoy it, my culture.
It does define a huge part ofmy identity, but I also am very
(28:46):
cognizant of the fact that anyMuslim I talk to will think I'm
crazy for thinking that Iqualify as Muslim without
believing in the supremacy ofGod and the Quran and the
Prophet Muhammad and all ofthose things.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Okay, that's so interesting because I feel like
sometimes when you're a culturalJew and not particularly
observant, as I am, but cherrypick what you like to do and
build it around thisself-directed kind of
spiritualism, you can feel.
Like when you're in the companyof very orthodox people, you
(29:22):
can feel a bit inadequate, and Ihave found I've had mixed
experiences.
Some are very open andwelcoming and just want to
invite you in and show youthings that you maybe aren't
used to, whereas I can remembera particular experience when I
was in Jerusalem and this manstopped me and he really
accosted me to come in his houseand wrap tefillin, because he
(29:45):
could see that I was a foreigner.
You could see I was Jewish, butnot from Israel, because of my
clothes and whatever and he sortof was so persistent.
He basically followed me downthe the road and he stopped me
and he was like why won't youcome and wrap tefillin?
When was the last time?
I think that's calledkidnapping.
Anthony, I think you gotkidnapped yeah, yeah and you
know what I'm talking about withthe tefillin right like the.
(30:06):
I mean I couldn't explain to youthe, the religious the wrapping
, the leather, the the black,yeah around the arm and then the
no, he was asking me when wasthe last time you wrapped
tefillin and um or put it on?
I've had that question a coupleof times, a couple of times
from religious people.
Any time these days someoneoffers, I say yes, because it
usually has been years.
(30:27):
And it's just one of thosethings I have to say since
October 7 that I feel more drawnto those practices even though
I'm not religious.
I want to do it because itgives me some sense of like
ancient connection to my peoplethat goes back you know 3 000
years or more and that I justfeel an enormous sense of you
(30:50):
know just goodness around it,even though I don't believe in
this practice that I completelyrelate to, because I've always
been very skeptical of religionand have not been a very active
Muslim.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
And when I was even a practicing Muslim and I was in
university in America in between1998 and 2002.
And at the time I was drinkingalcohol and fornicating and all
of those things that you do as agood college student, and the
thing that happened was 9-11.
And post 9-11, it became veryscary to be a Muslim in America,
(31:22):
right?
Because all of a sudden it waslike all Muslims are terrorists
and that narrative started andthat pushed me towards being
more Muslim.
So for the remainder of theyear or so that I was in the US,
because people were saying,don't you dare be a Muslim, I
suddenly was like well, no, Ishall be one, because that is
(31:42):
part of my identity and youdon't get to tell me who.
And I suddenly was like, well,no, I shall be one, because that
is part of my identity and youdon't get to tell me who.
And I felt that connection andI embraced it more.
I started praying five times aday.
I would go to the mosque, youknow, I'd meet other Muslims and
spend time with the community.
It's when I moved to Pakistanyears later or into that at the
end of 2002.
And I then lived in a Muslimcountry.
Then I actually stopped beingMuslim because I felt suddenly A
(32:04):
the pressure was no longer.
That's an interesting thing aswell, because I want to ask you
about that, both of you is thepressure to be a Muslim is very
heavy from Muslim communitiesbecause Islam, particularly, is
a proselytizing religion.
Right, we're always looking toincrease our subscriber base,
like there's always that aspectof you know, how many more
Muslims can we add to thenumbers, whereas, as far as I
(32:26):
could tell, judaism doesn't havethat.
You're not looking to convertpeople to Judaism.
No, we don't want them.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Right.
The Jews are looking to convertthem to Sky News, but not to.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Judaism.
But what about the conservativeJews?
To the liberal Jews or to thecultural Jews?
So when Anthony said you meetOrthodox Jews, are they trying
to get you back into the fold?
Do you feel a pressure to dothat, or do you think they're
just being hospitable?
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Well, I like to think it's the latter, that they're
just being warm and hospitableand sharing their much deeper
knowledge of my own religionwith me.
But, Tammy, I guess I wasthinking about your experience,
because I suppose we're both ona similar point on the spectrum
of lapsedness in a way, but bothfeeling that pull towards the
(33:23):
culture, and I've certainly feltthat kind of need to reinforce.
Have you felt that too?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
I have and, following a conversation we had with Ben
M Freeman on this podcast a fewweeks ago, I no longer and this
is only in the past few weeks,and this is only in the past few
weeks I no longer refer tomyself as a lapsed Jew.
I am embracing my Jewishness.
It is my ethnicity, it is mybirthright, it's my ancestry.
(33:54):
It's really that conversationand I've had this feedback from
a lot of people thatconversation reframed everything
to the point where and I'm nottrying to convert you, Sammy,
but the fact that you're marriedto a Jewish woman and you bake
challah and you are havingconversations with John Safran
and you are involved in a Jewishcommunity Ben M Freeman and I,
(34:19):
speaking on behalf of him, wouldagree that you're Jewish.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
I mean, look, I do the same with many Christian
things as well.
I also, you know, make greatChristian cakes and things like
that.
I'm just saying You're alsoChristian.
I completely, yeah.
I like to think of myself as aperson who is outside all of it
and therefore can be in whateverhe likes, but I pick and choose
.
I mean, some of my heroes areJewish.
For example, I was discussingthis with Kylie the other day
(34:44):
the two things I love arestand-up comedy and comic books,
and both of those are Jewishart forms.
So there is that wholeconnection there.
But the idea of how theorthodox and the lapsed and
everything kind of connect isreally interesting to me because
, like you said, tammy, you nolonger consider yourself a
lapsed Jew.
Now does that mean when youpartake in the rituals of
(35:11):
Jewishness, like, for example, areligious event, do you believe
in a higher power now, or isthere a level of atheism that's
still present, or was that everthere?
Because I don't have that partyeah, I don't have that part.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Yeah, I don't have that part either.
I long to have that part.
Really so there's a God hole.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
There are many holes.
Well, no, that's a Marc Marondescription.
I'm quoting Marc Maron, thecomedian.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
He says there's a God hole and you're filling it with
things.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
It's in the chest, above the waist.
I think there's a spiritualityhole.
So I'm envious of my friendswho believe in a higher power.
I feel like there's an ease,there's a routine.
I put it in the same categoryas when I'm envious of a friend
who doesn't analyse things toodeeply, who are really, really
(36:06):
happy with their mediocrepartner working in a job that
doesn't take up too much brainpower.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
Oh dumb, people have the best life.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
I'm not saying that she's dumb.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
I'm just saying, of course you aren't, of course you
aren't.
She loves Fast and Furiousmovies and is always surprised
when there's a new one, and welove that about her, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
And the people listening underneath me.
It's not you.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
If you think it's you , it's not you, and if you're
the one thinking, that can't beme, it's you yeah, fair enough.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
So that's what I long for.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
I long for that belief that there is something
looking out for me, but do youstill enjoy and I think this
part is possible do you stillenjoy the ritual for the sake of
ritual?
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Yes, I think a lot of authors, a lot of writers and
creatives talk about this.
But especially when it comes tomourning and grieving rituals,
I really enjoy grief.
I really enjoy grief.
I really enjoy death.
Yeah, much more than marriagerituals, for sure.
I think there is somethingtherapeutic about saying the
mourner's prayer, the Kaddish.
(37:13):
Yes, I don't believe thatthere's God, but I think there's
something in the rhythm ofsaying that prayer, there's
something comforting.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
So would you both and this is for both of you, tammy
first and then Anthony want tobe buried in the Jewish way if
you were to die?
God forbid.
You know, heaven forbidtomorrow.
And also, was that always thecase, or has that changed?
Speaker 1 (37:35):
post-October 7th I thought about this in 2006 when
I made a will.
I went to a family friend, afamily lawyer, and I said I want
to be cremated, I want itwritten in my will, and my
family friend said, sure, happyto do that.
Just to let you know, thefamily doesn't really check the
(37:56):
will until after you're buriedand when you're dead you kind of
don't have much to say.
So I said, fine, let's do that.
I spoke to my family about it.
My mum's really into potteryand I really liked this vase
that she made out of mosaicedpieces of smashed crockery from
our childhood.
I said I want to be crematedand put in that she said
absolutely not.
(38:17):
Then, as a marriage celebrant, Iofficiated a funeral that took
place in a crematorium and Iwent backstage and saw what that
looked like almost fainted fromthe smell, and then I decided I
don't want to do that, theremust be another way.
And then last year I heard thisfantastic podcast not sure if
(38:38):
you're aware of it, sammy.
It's called Grave, gravematters and it's co-hosted by
anthony levin, uh, who I don'tknow if you've heard of him.
Have you, anthony?
Speaker 2 (38:47):
never.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
No, it was this clown co-hosted by anthony levin and
nadine j cohen, and that made merethink everything again, and
now I think I want to be turnedinto liquid.
I want, want to be what's thescientific term.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Aquamated?
I've never heard of that as anoption.
Yes, like water cremation.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
You've asked this question to the right person,
Sammy Water cremation.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
Hang on, hang on.
Basically, they turn you into aliquid form and then pour you
into the ocean.
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2 (39:21):
I believe you can be turned into a liquid form and
then pour you into the ocean.
Is that what you?
I believe you can be turnedinto a liquid, but that
generally that process, as Iunderstand it I'm no expert
produces a similar kind ofoutput to a regular furnace
based formation.
It's just using water alkalinehydrolysis to get there, so it's
just a different and it'sarguably less carbon intensive
(39:41):
process as well.
So thank you for the plug,tammy.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
By the way, At the end of cremation, you get a jar
full of ashes.
At the end of this, do you geta smoothie?
Like what exactly are you?
Is this boba?
What am I getting here?
Speaker 2 (39:56):
It's a smoothie you would send back at Boost Juice,
right.
But I think, look, what I cansay is that the field of
possibilities has opened up soradically in the last few years
that you can do almost anything.
You can be turned into diamonds, you can become a firework, you
can be liquid, you can be asmoothie.
You can really, honestly, youcan do almost anything.
(40:19):
It's really touching tabby thatyou were affected by.
You know those, thoseconversations, because that's
really nice.
That's really why we do it.
Shammy, like like my brand, ispartly death right.
So this is something I'vethought quite a lot about and,
in answer to your question, Idon't want to be buried in a
Jewish cemetery, even thoughthat's where all my family are.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Same.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
But I am very partial to a form of organic reduction
which is currently not legal inNew South Wales.
It's called natural organicreduction and it basically
involves chucking someone in avat with some bark chips and
some alfalfa, closing the lidand leaving them to kind of
(41:05):
ferment for a few weeks.
That's a very crude description.
In the more sophisticatedfacilities that do this, in
Washington, for example, ittakes about six to eight weeks
to reduce a human being to abouteight bags of soil.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
That's not that different from the Zoroastrian
method which I don't know if youknow about, which is the Tower
of Silence, where basically theycover you in yogurt, lay you
down in open air space and letthe birds consume you.
You know the carrion.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yes, so we don't have the carrion so much here, but
this method is veryenvironmentally friendly.
It's effectively carbon neutralif it's done properly.
And I like the idea for tworeasons.
One, because I like the ideathat you can become soil and
(41:53):
return to the earth and thatthat can be shared with so many
people.
Like everyone can get a littlebag of you and take you home and
put you in the garden right, Ireally like that idea.
But I also like the fact thatit doesn't contribute to the
destruction of the planet.
That's a big one for me and ittrumps my desire to be rotting
next to my grandmother or mymother.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Yes, and also because the Jewish cemetery in Sydney
is really far away from mostJews and people don't like to
schlep very far.
And so the idea of me beingthere, even though I'll be with
my old ancestors, my future, mykids, I don't want them to have
to go.
Oh, we have to drive toRookwood.
(42:35):
That decision is also based onme not wanting to burden my
children any more than Iinevitably will.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
That is a very Sydney excuse, though that is very
much a Sydney-siders hatetraveling from one part of the
city to the other part of thecity more than any place I've
met.
So because?
All right, so that'sinteresting to me, because
neither of you want to be buriedin jewish cemeteries, but also
neither of you want to be buried, it feels, whereas I have the
opposite thing.
Theoretically, I shouldn't carewhat happens after I die, but
(43:05):
the idea of being turned to ashor liquid or any of those things
freaks me out.
I want my body whole and Ithink it's because of that
childhood indoctrination intothe idea of the Day of Judgment,
which, in Islam, what happensthe Day of Judgment is all the
dead rise up and then zombiewalk to God and get judged and
(43:27):
I'm like, well, if I'm Ash, thenhow do I rise up again?
Which I suppose is a childishkind of metric in the back of my
head.
But more than that, I just likethe idea of being in the earth
and my family coming to visit me.
And you know, the joke I alwayssay is I'm going to hire a
woman to come and lay a red roseon my grave every time my
(43:48):
family is nearby, or and a womanto come and lay a red rose on
my grave every time my family isnearby and another person to
come and pour a glass of whiskeyand throw the glass at the
gravestone and walk away angrilyand they'd be like what the
hell was he up to when he'salive?
But I do like the idea of agrave.
I love going to graveyards, likeyou know the one in Melbourne.
I don't know if you've everbeen to the one here.
It's called Graveyard.
It's a huge graveyard nearPrincess Park and there's a
(44:10):
Jewish section.
There's obviously a Christiansection, which is the majority
of it.
There's also a Chinese section.
There's an Italian section.
There's a few Muslim graves.
I really like it.
I like the idea of you knowsomeone coming to my grave and I
always wonder whether that isinduct.
You know whether that is induct.
You know that, whether that's alittle bit of the muslim in me
(44:31):
still being reluctant to let goof that side of it or not.
So I find it fascinating thatboth of you, even though you've
gravitated more towards yourjewishness in the last few years
, have found this as an aspectthat you're still fairly
confidently not going tocompromise on.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
But we're probably not representative of the wider
community, would you say,anthony, should I do an
Instagram poll following this tosee where we are?
Speaker 3 (44:54):
I know more Jews like you guys than I do who aren't
yeah, although it might be justbecause the communities I hang
out in are more comedy and stufflike that.
But yeah, I know morenon-practicing than I do.
In fact, the only likepracticing like not orthodox,
but like not orthodox but likebelieving Jewish comedian that I
(45:14):
know would be Alex Edelman andhe's in the US and he kind of
stands out for that reason Goodflex.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
I would hazard a guess that this might be a
little bit generational and thatmaybe our peers in their
mid-40s and late 30s might havemore congruent views on this
issue than their baby boomerparents, for example.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Yeah, it could also be like our parents, the boomers
, could afford to buy a house.
They could also afford to buy aplot, but our generation can't
even afford to rent, so we'renot even thinking about buying a
that's not a bad point, by theway, that is expensive.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Yeah, yeah, big funeral really has a
stranglehold on uh, on what youcan do, and uh makes it
difficult apparently like.
Speaker 3 (46:05):
So the italian people I know from the Italian
community.
They've told me and this mightbe apocryphal, but I'm pretty
sure it isn't that some of thefunerals can cost and the
gravestones and everything,because they're marble and all
that can cost up to $100,000.
Like, families go into debt.
Burying someone yes, the wayyou know weddings and stuff.
So it's kind of crazy that wayas well I don't think that's
(46:26):
apocryphal.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
I I have heard that too.
Um, probably 100k is probablyat the top of the spectrum there
.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
But yes, yeah I'm so glad that you asked that
question, because now I knowthat when anthony dies, he wants
to be kombucha for a bit um, Iwould like to turn to tea green
tea tea.
Speaker 3 (46:47):
I'm a green tea fan.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
And you want to be bone Sammy.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
Yeah, I want to be the entire whole piece of me.
I want to be buried like Lenin.
It's a see-through plexiglassthing where you can still see my
body mummified 100 years later.
I want people to come and visit.
We're not talking about.
John, we're talking about the,yeah yeah, yeah, no, no,
vladimir, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
I think that's a great way to wrap up today's
conversation.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
From birth to life and penises in between.
We got everything done.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
Sami Shah, thank you so much for joining us on A
Shame to Ask.
You've been a dream guest.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
I've been degrading the podcast everywhere I
possibly can with my appearance,but thank you for indulging me.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
That was Sami the Holla King Shah, and that's it
for this week.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
You've been listening to A Shame to Ask, a shame to
admit sibling podcast with me,Tammy Sussman and Anthony Levin,
who is filling in for DashLawrence.
This episode was mixed andedited by Nick King, with theme
music by Donovan Jenks.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
If you like the podcast, leave a positive review
, tell your people or encourageyour third cousin's cousin to
advertise on the show.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yeah, tell them that this episode was nearly as
enjoyable as an Anthony Levinkombucha.
You can tell us what you'reashamed to admit via the contact
form on the Jewish Independentwebsite.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
Thank you so much for listening and look out for
another instalment next week.
Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in
Australia, the Middle East andthe world at large?
But a little bit ashamed thatyou're barely keeping up to date
.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, you've come to the right place.
I'm Anthony Levin, filling infor Dash Lawrence, and in this
special episode of Ashamed toAdmit your snoodily-doodly third
cousin, tammy Sussman and Iwill be inviting someone who
isn't Jewish to raise all theawkward questions you might be
too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Join me and Anthony as we have a go at cutting
through some seriously chewy anddewy topics.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast.
Ashamed to Ask.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Hello everyone.
Welcome to another installmentIn the Ashamed to Ask studio.
With me today is Anthony Levin.
Hello, hello, thank you forhaving me.
It's my pleasure.
Anthony Levin, award-winningwriter, broadcaster and human
(01:13):
rights lawyer, whose writing hasappeared in the Guardian, men's
Style and Prospect magazine andacademic journals and
anthologies, is that you?
That is me Also a finalist forGovernment Lawyer of the Year in
2024 and a two-time recipientof the John Hennessy Legal
Scholarship for Advocacy onIndigenous Healthcare in Prison.
(01:34):
That's you.
That's not another AnthonyLevin.
That is me.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Who is this swanker I ?
Speaker 1 (01:40):
was going to say who is this underachiever?
You're also heavily involved inHolocaust education.
You're a writer of comedy forstage, film and TV, co-host of
the SBS podcast Grave Matters,which won the best factual
category at the AustralianPodcast Awards in 2024 and the
best weird category at theInternational Signal Awards 2024
(02:06):
.
Anthony, have I missed anything?
Any other identifiers?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
No, thank you very much, Tammy.
Other than to say very proudand doting father and husband,
and I guess I just want to sayyou know, being a dad is
probably my favourite thing, notan achievement, but just
probably one of my favouritething, right?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
now I'd say that's an achievement too, making it
through the first five years.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
That's a whole other episode or a book.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Anthony, who's joining us in the studio today?
Who's asking us all of thechewy dewy, awkward questions?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Well, look, I was intrigued by this format because
it's not clear who's reallykind of steering the ship here.
You invited me on to be a guesthost.
I'm kind of like somewhere in aliminal state between guest and
host, because we've invited oncomedian and writer Sammy Sharpe
to actually sit in theinterrogator's chair, we might
(03:05):
say.
Sammy has been profiled in theNew York Times and ABC's
Australian Story.
He's also appeared on BBC Radio4, bbc Asian Network, tedx, the
Project and the Soho Theatre.
He's a very accomplished man.
Young Sammy wrote and performeda two-part series for BBC Radio
(03:26):
4 called A Beginner's Guide toPakistan and appeared as a
panellist on QI with Stephen Fry.
It's a very, you know,auspicious company there.
Sammy won the award for BestLocal Act at the 2013 Perth
International Comedy Festivaland Best WA Comedy at the 2016
Fringe World.
(03:46):
His autobiography I Migrant Ilove that title, by the way has
been nominated for the New SouthWales Premier's Literary Award
and the Russell Prize for HumourWriting, and we warmly welcome
the very funny sammy shah sammyshah.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Thank you so much for joining us on a shame to admit
sibling podcast.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
A shame to ask thanks so much for having me.
I have many things to ask andI'm never ashamed.
Wow, okay, setting the bar high, I try to Right.
So I'm from Pakistan and Idon't know how aware you are of
Pakistan or Pakistani history oranything like that, but it's
not a country that is known forits friendliness to the Jewish
(04:41):
peoples.
If there was to be a kind of alist of countries that are most
to least anti-Semitic, we woulddefinitely be in the top ones of
most anti-Semitic.
But what was surprising was whenI was growing up, we always had
rumors that there was somewherein Karachi the city I'm from,
which is the biggest city inPakistan somewhere there was a
synagogue that had once beenused.
Never found it, always heard ofit.
(05:02):
It's like a rumored thing.
City I'm from, which is thebiggest city in Pakistan
somewhere there was a synagoguethat had once been used.
Never found it, always heard ofit.
It's like a rumored thing.
There's also a graveyard, aJewish graveyard, there in
Karachi that's been maintained,but I didn't know that there
were Pakistani Jews or SouthAsian Jews until years later
(05:23):
when I met a writer namedMuhammad Hanif.
He's a Pakistani writer.
He went to Israel for aJerusalem, for a literary
conference like a literaryfestival, you know, in the 90s,
and he met a Pakistani Jew overthere from Karachi who came up
to him inside weeping and sayingI haven't met someone from
Karachi since 1948 and thingslike that.
(05:45):
It was an amazing thing.
Is that a known thing that theywere or are South Asian Jews,
tammy?
do you want to jump on this one.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
No, Anthony, you go ahead.
People want to hear from you.
You're a fresh mate on thispodcast.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
That I am.
That's a great description.
So, sammy, because I know alittle bit about your background
, I did a little bit of readingon this.
I confess I don't know a lotabout Pakistani Jewry, but I did
know that there were SouthAsian Jews.
I knew enough to know thatthose communities were small and
when I read into the experienceof Jews in Pakistan, I
(06:23):
immediately cancelled my tripthere, right you know, and I
sought a refund from PakistanAir.
But I did discover that therewas a synagogue and that there
was a community of about 2,500Jews at the turn of the 20th
century.
Okay, so not a sizablecommunity.
(06:43):
And what I learned and I'mreally learning, just like our
listeners might be learningabout this is that when Israel
declared independence in 1948,there was effectively a pogrom
in Karachi where that synagoguewas burned down and Jews were
targeted and attacked, and thatnaturally had an enormous impact
(07:06):
on the willingness of Jews tostay in Pakistan.
So many migrated to Israel andother places after that and
America and the community shrunkand it kind of became, as far
as I understand it, it's likethere's only one Jew in the
village now, kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It reminds me of that storyabout Afghanistan, where there's
I don't know if they're stillthere, but they were doing the
Taliban rule even there were twoJews left in all of Afghanistan
and they both hated each other.
They were kept in separateprisons because they kept
arguing with each other all thetime.
It felt like such a cliche to me.
I've spoken about this before,but the amount of anti-Semitism
(07:47):
that I absorbed growing up inPakistan is something that I
only really became cognizant ofwhen I left the country, and,
like many people, there's thatthing of I'm not anti-Semitic,
I'm anti-Zionist or whateverthat kind of catchphrase becomes
, where it took me a long timeto go.
Am I even qualified to makethat claim, Like I really need
(08:07):
to be introspective about it?
But as a result, there's a lotof stuff that I've absorbed
which I still don't know whetherit is a terrible stereotype or
it's an innocent question.
So here's one.
So I don't know, if you know, mypartner, Kylie, is pregnant and
you know we might have a boy.
And the question I have isbecause circumcisions are
(08:30):
definite, right, I'm, I'm an exMuslim, but I'm still, you know,
ex Muslim enough that I'm, Istill like, prefer a circumcised
penis on a boy over not?
She's obviously Jewish, soshe'd want that as well.
Does the rabbi bite off the tipof that penis?
You know, will I get sued forthis?
Like what is the facts?
(08:52):
There we are in treacherousterritory here.
See, I didn't realize, like Ididn't realize.
This is such a treacherousquestion to ask, then right.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
I guess we just need to be mindful that neither of us
are moyals, so we are nottrained to perform this ritual.
Only one of us, in terms ofTammy and I, have experienced it
, and I wasn't conscious toremember it, but I can speak to
that, and I guess we're notexperts on halakhic law or
(09:23):
practices like that, but we have, I guess, enough lived cultural
experience to have aperspective.
And some listeners may say thisis nonsense, but anyway, my
perspective, I suppose, is thatfrom my research and
understanding over the years, isthat for the most part cultural
(09:43):
Jews or even moderatelyobservant Jews in Australia
would have that ritual performedin a medical environment or by
a medical practitioner.
But it is not withoutcontroversy, of course, because
this is an ancient Jewishpractice and it's touted as, or
described as, our covenant withGod, albeit a covenant that only
(10:05):
pertains to one half of theethnic group, which I find
problematic from a kind of morefeminist point of view.
But there's also questions andthese have been raised in the
legal context, about thelawfulness of the practice.
But both Tasmania andQueensland have published their
law reform commissionsrespectively, have published
(10:26):
reports on the issue and lookingat both its criminal and civil
consequences.
Because I'm a lawyer, thisstuff interests me.
So there's some really vexingissues when the right to
religious freedom and to choosehow you exercise your religious
freedom clashes with the bestinterests of the child, because
(10:46):
this is a non-consensual,non-therapeutic procedure on a
neonate.
So it's very serious and in noother area of the law do we
allow this to happen.
I mean, you will be thrown injail if you tattoo a child of
that age or any age up tomajority really.
But in this area and we talk inthe law about whether a person
(11:10):
is competent a minor can becompetent, capable to consent to
certain things.
But this is not that.
But we allow it because we saythat this is a religious
practice which has a rightfulplace in a democratic society
where people choose how theyexpress their religion.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
I'm not expressing a view on that in particular here,
because I don't think it's theplace, but I think that's what
makes it treacherous, both froman in-group and an out-group
point of view, and that's reallyfascinating to me because, okay
, so like, as I said, muslimsalso circumcise, the same as
Jews, and I always had in myhead that if I ever have a son,
(11:47):
even though I'm not a practicingMuslim anymore, circumcisions
are.
It's just a thing that is notquestionable.
It is definitely going to be athing that my son will also have
.
Why should I be the one tosuffer?
Also, let's be very honest here.
Uncircumcised penises are verygross, but they do.
They look.
They look like they're wearinga sweater made of skin.
(12:07):
It is.
It is just the weirdest lookingthing.
They ruin porn for me.
But what I will say is that whenI came to australia, was the
first time that the question ofthis being a debated subject
even occurred to me that therewas this, you know, conversation
happening that, oh, is itcruelty?
Is it something that we'reinflicting upon children?
(12:28):
Do they have consent to this?
Is this, you know, gentle,mutilation, etc.
Etc.
And someone I was arguing withpoorly, I should add put the
point out where they're likewell, you're against female, you
know, circumcision, for example.
I'm like of course that'shorrific.
She's like why not the boysthen?
Why don't you have the samestandard there and I didn't
really have an answer to that.
(12:49):
But at the same time and it'sreally interesting that at the
same time as an ex-muslim Ican't.
I've let go of so many things.
I eat bacon, right, which againI understand.
Talking to you two jews mightnot be the most you know correct
thing to be saying, but michaelSchaefer is a good friend of
mine and he gave me permissionto rant about this, so it's fine
.
So I've obviously given up alot, but I haven't given up this
(13:11):
one weird archaic.
You know practice and I'm noteven willing to consider giving
that up for some reason.
And I always wonder.
There are so many Jews who arethey're Jewish but they call
themselves atheists before.
That's a very common thing inthe jewish community, like I'm
jewish but I don't believe ingod, like that's a common
refrain.
But is giving up the idea ofcircumcision something that's
(13:34):
still a taboo even for them, youknow?
Are there any non-circumcisedjews?
Speaker 1 (13:40):
I suppose is the weird roundabout question I just
asked yeah, I know of some,I've seen a few, but then again
few dimensions, anthony.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yeah, my son is not circumcised.
We made a very conscious choice.
Okay, my wife is not Jewish,but we are very strongly
cultural in our practices.
We observe as much as we can,capacity permitting, but we made
a choice not to.
And if you want to gettechnical for a moment, there
are, I think, generallyconsidered to be four, or
(14:15):
sometimes five types of FGM,right?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
And one of them what's FGM?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Female genital mutilation.
Okay, thank you.
One of them is the excision ofthe prepuce.
Now, when you talk about malecircumcision, it's the same
tissue that's being excised,okay, and it has a similar
function and it develops fromthe same anatomical foundational
structure in the womb in termsof I just want to point out, by
(14:40):
the way, that when you booked me, I bet you didn't think
excision of the prepuce would bea sentence.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
You'd be saying I really didn't, but that is a
great sentence.
Excision of the prepuce is mynew punk rock band name.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Continue my new punk rock band name is fentanyl by
mouth.
All right, we can duke it outfor best garage band of.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Battle of the bands.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Sounds good?
Yeah, Well, my punk rock bandis Dick Cheese Continue.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Excellent.
I don't think anyone is goingto be necessarily persuaded not
to practice this ancient ritualon the basis that there are
similarities to FGM.
People make moral distinctionsabout these things for all sorts
of reasons.
I don't know that we want totalk about them in this chat
(15:28):
with you, sammy, because thatwould probably consume all of
the oxygen in our rooms, but Ithink it's a really interesting
issue.
I don't have the answer.
I think there is actually areally interesting practice
which I will mention, which Ithink they call a Brit Shalom,
which is where you can do theritual of the circumcision
without any cutting, or you do asymbolic cutting, so you still
(15:51):
observe the covenant, so tospeak, but you don't cut the
skin of the child.
And I tried to find apractitioner who could do this
when my son was born andcouldn't find anyone familiar
with how to do it in Australia.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
You should have called me.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Really.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I'm a LifeStages celebrant and I have, as part of
my package, pun intended.
I have a service that I providecalled Brist no Snip.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I wish I knew that, tammy, it's not too late.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
All right.
So then that comes to the nextquestion I had, which is what's
a Britmila?
What is it?
What happens?
Do I have to have candles?
Is there going to be presents?
Is there a cake?
No cake, what?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
happens, there has to be salmon, even if you're vegan
Salmon.
That's a weird choice.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
That's the only fish I don't actually enjoy.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
All right, okay, that's not written in any formal
text.
Yeah, what is a Brit Mila?
What is a Briss Anthony?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Honestly, I am not qualified to really answer this
question, tammy, you would haveseen.
Have you ever been to any?
I have not, except my own, andit was a riotous affair.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Are there pictures?
Do you?
Do you remember?
Like looking at the pictures,were there 10 people?
Was it just family?
Speaker 2 (17:10):
I believe it was just family and maybe some close
family friends.
I would have to ask my dadabout that.
But, tammy, I'm wondering ifyou've been to a few, because
when I've spoken to some of myjewish female friends, they have
all said that they found itpretty tough and that they kind
of had to look away and thatthey were upset afterwards
because it's like my baby, youknow.
(17:32):
So what's your perspective onthat?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
So I have been to a few, but then again too few to
mention.
No, I have.
I've been to quite a few,mostly out of obligation and
fear of being excommunicated.
So I have not wanted to go, butI've gone.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Yeah, but that's like any wedding invite as well.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Nobody wants to go to a wedding either.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
You go out of obligation and a fear of being
excommunicated.
I love a good wedding.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Out of obligation and also for the kiddush, for the
spread afterwards.
People do it differently.
Some might have it in the homeand they might have, yeah, a
gathering of a lot of peoplewith food and celebration
afterwards.
I find those really difficult.
I spend most of the time cryinginappropriately because the
(18:28):
children do not belong to me,and I should say that there are
some mohelim, mohels, mohelotplural of mohels, mohels and
pediatric surgeons who agreethat having it in the home it
sounds counterintuitive but isin a sense more sterile than in
(18:49):
their rooms where they get a lotof kids with, you know, who
bring in their different germs.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Right, that makes sense actually Interesting yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
And then, as far as I know, in Australia there isn't
a medical rebate or privatehealth doesn't cover that,
because it's a what would youcall it Optional.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Non-therapeutic, not medically indicated, unless it
is, of course, unless the doctorsays it's necessary.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
But what I'm seeing this is becoming a new trend is
to have it done in the rooms ofa pediatric surgeon and done by
someone who is a pediatricsurgeon, because our non-Jewish
listeners Sammy might not beaware that Moyles don't
necessarily have to be pediatricsurgeons.
I know that there's anophthalmologist who does them.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
I thought you were going to say Moyles ain't Moyles
, and copying that old.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
I really thought you were about to say that.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Sorry, tammy.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Wait, sorry.
You said the Moyles can even bean ophthalmologist.
The Moyle is the person whobecause I genuinely have no idea
about the, so the Moyle is theperson who does the SNP, yep,
but wouldn't it make sense forthat to be a paediatric surgeon?
Speaker 2 (20:00):
He said in a very high voice Okay, it would Don't
need to be a paediatric surgeon,it would, he said in a mehaw
voice.
It would Don't need to be.
And it's really a matter ofchoice, isn't it?
The family might choose to doit in a more traditional way, or
they might want that medicaltraining, because there have
been a few publicised cases fromboth Australia and America,
from memory, of mishaps, botchedjobs, yeah, causing serious
(20:21):
harm to the child, requiring,you know, surgery afterwards and
ongoing issues.
So there is a small risk ofthat, that there can be
complications.
And of course, we probablyshould mention, tammy, that the
traditional rule is eight daysafter birth.
That's when it's performed, butthat is not.
I understand that a lot ofpeople will wait a bit longer if
(20:42):
they don't, if that particularobservance isn't as important to
them.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
Isn't that the same for the naming of the child in
the Jewish tradition as well?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yes, so traditionally the boy will not receive a name
until oh so that's the sameceremony.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yes, I did not know that.
All right, interesting, okay,so that helps a lot.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Traditionally, yes, so more and more families in my
circles are choosing to have itdone in paediatric surgeons'
rooms.
This was the case for my nephew.
I was pregnant with a child atthe time.
I went to this particularsurgery to support my sister.
(21:25):
We had a cry together, so I wasanticipating the baby in
hysterics.
And, yeah, I was anticipatingquite a traumatic experience and
it wasn't at all so.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Are you talking about for you or for the baby wasn't
at all, so are you talking?
Speaker 1 (21:43):
about for you or for the baby, for the baby.
He barely cried.
My sister was fine.
Yeah, we had a little cry inthe lead up to it happening.
I was holding her hand and thenit was kind of like an
anti-climax.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Here's the thing that I find interesting is, as far
as I know, medically there's noreason for it, right Like that
whole argument of it's actuallysafer and cleaner.
It turned out wasn'tscientifically accurate correct.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
A lot of those medicalized rationales have been
debunked or thoroughlycritiqued.
Yes, and there are still thosewho prosecute the case that it
is beneficial because it helpspeople to avoid certain kinds of
STDs in certain countries wherethere is less access to
contraception.
So in places like Africa, insome countries where there is
(22:32):
less access to condoms, thereare some studies that suggest
that those with circumcisionhave a lower rate of passing on
or even acquiring those diseases.
But we have to account for thevery simple solution to that,
which is let's find ways toensure that that access to
prophylaxis is higher.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Yeah, and also we just have showers with good
water pressure here.
You know, on the hygiene sideof it.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah.
So I think a lot of thosearguments they persist but they
are not received as strongly.
And even if you look at thepolicy positions of the medical
profession, including the AMAand other bodies, they've
softened their stance on malecircumcision quite a lot over
(23:17):
the last decade and now they aregenerally saying it's a
family's choice but we don'trecommend interesting.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Okay, all right, are we?
Going to spend the wholeepisode talking about dick, or
my next question was going to beabout menu, because that's the
only part I can really controlis what is traditionally served.
You mentioned salmon.
Um, are we just talking about awhole fish, or or what's the
preferred method?
What's the best food you'veeaten at a bris?
What should I be aiming forhere?
Speaker 1 (23:46):
It's very Ashkenormative of me to say
salmon.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
I have never heard that word before in my life but,
I automatically find ithilarious.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I mean maybe a challah, some bagels, some
hummus, everyone wins.
Yeah, I rock a challah, somebagels, some hummus, everyone
wins.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Yeah, I rock a challah.
I can do bagels.
I'm not a fan of hummus, butokay, I'll consider it.
We're catering your son'sbrisket, right now.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Is that what we're doing here?
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Well, I mean, yeah, that's the only thing I'm in
charge of really is the cookingside of things.
And so you know, I'm justwondering what the procedures?
Speaker 1 (24:22):
are you make your own challah?
I've seen as well, Sami.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
I do.
That's my obsession.
I have an Instagram account ifanyone wants to follow.
There's a really famousInstagram guy named the Challah
Prince.
He is phenomenal.
He makes great challahs and Ilearned a lot by watching his
videos.
And then I decided that Ishould be the Kala King.
But because the last name Shahmeans king, so I was like I'm
(24:48):
the Kala Shah.
So if you go on Instagram, kalaShah, that's my account and you
can see my Kala progress there.
Amazing, I don't know, likethat's.
It's one of those things whenyou're having a boy,
particularly in this day and age, there's a lot of things to
think about and a lot of thequestions that come up.
You know, how do you not raisean incel, how do you not turn
him into an Andrew Tatesupporter, and like.
(25:08):
Those are the questions thateveryone's kind of really
grappling with, like now thatwe've seen that show on Netflix,
how do we look at our sons anddo a good job, as opposed to
just, you know, neglecting themas has been done in generations
past?
But to me, those are arbitraryquestions.
The biggest concern I've had assoon as I found out I'm having
a boy is what's the process andprocedures around the
circumcision.
(25:28):
So this doesn't answer a lot ofmy concerns.
Thank you, can I ask?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
you a question, Sami, Because you describe yourself
as an ex-Muslim and you've comefrom a country with such strict
laws about criticizing Islam andyou have a Jewish wife.
How do you intend to kind ofmarry or merge traditions from
the two, Like, for example, canyou be a cultural Muslim?
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Yes, I mean, look, muslims will say no, but I'm
very big on self-definitions.
You know this is.
You don't get to tell me who Iam and how I get to live my life
.
And I consider myself acultural Shia Muslim, you know,
because I'm from the Shia subsetof Islam and my family is a
Shia family, and so you know,for example, I don't believe in
(26:14):
God.
I think religions are marvelousthings that were created by
humans, and that makes it moreexciting to me than the idea of
some glowing guy in the sky.
You know, throwing this down,that's fascinating to me.
I grew up with certain culturalpractices, like I guess Eid is a
big one that I follow, which isa big celebration.
You know.
It's like the Jews haveHanukkah, christians have
Christmas, muslims have Eid.
Everyone kind of has their ownkind of celebration there.
(26:37):
And then the cooking side ofthings, which is, of course,
south Asian but also Muslim,because the food has got those
kind of elements to it and atthe same time, because I grew up
as a Shia Muslim, even though Ino longer believe in the
divinity of it all, I do thinkSunnis can go fuck themselves.
I'm kidding, I'm kidding, ofcourse I don't, but I do a
(27:00):
little bit, but there is.
You know those things.
There's a conversation I hadwith John Safran, actually years
ago, and I was saying howatheist are we?
Because he and I werediscussing our atheism and he's
a Jewish atheist and Muslimatheist and he said we came to
it too late, like we didn't growup as atheists, we weren't born
(27:23):
atheists, right?
So there's some things you'llnever let go of and the example
he gave was so true I still haveit which is karma.
Like I'm obsessed with karma,Like I really think if I do
something bad, something badwill happen to me.
If I treat someone poorly, Iwill be treated poorly.
Like those are things that arescientific fact in my head.
(27:44):
There's a thing in Islam we havecalled Nazar, which is, you
know, when someone is envioustowards you, they put like a bad
juju on you, the evil eye yeah,exactly, evil eye.
Same thing.
And like Kylie will tell youhow embarrassingly hard I
believe in Nazar, where, like,the way to ward off Nazar is you
sacrifice a black goat anddistribute the meat to poor
(28:04):
people.
I can't do it in Melbourne.
People look at me funny when Ido it.
So I send money to Pakistan formy family to have a goat
sacrifice and have the meatdistributed.
But you know, I'm a rational man.
I'm a 46-year-old rational manwith rational beliefs and I
believe in science and thesupremacy of logic and reason.
(28:25):
And I will kill a goat rightnow if I feel like I've got some
bad luck coming my way, like sothere's certain stuff that's
just there, like it's just acultural thing that I'll never
be able to let go of and I'vemade my peace with it.
I enjoy it, my culture.
It does define a huge part ofmy identity, but I also am very
(28:46):
cognizant of the fact that anyMuslim I talk to will think I'm
crazy for thinking that Iqualify as Muslim without
believing in the supremacy ofGod and the Quran and the
Prophet Muhammad and all ofthose things.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Okay, that's so interesting because I feel like
sometimes when you're a culturalJew and not particularly
observant, as I am, but cherrypick what you like to do and
build it around thisself-directed kind of
spiritualism, you can feel.
Like when you're in the companyof very orthodox people, you
(29:22):
can feel a bit inadequate, and Ihave found I've had mixed
experiences.
Some are very open andwelcoming and just want to
invite you in and show youthings that you maybe aren't
used to, whereas I can remembera particular experience when I
was in Jerusalem and this manstopped me and he really
accosted me to come in his houseand wrap tefillin, because he
(29:45):
could see that I was a foreigner.
You could see I was Jewish, butnot from Israel, because of my
clothes and whatever and he sortof was so persistent.
He basically followed me downthe the road and he stopped me
and he was like why won't youcome and wrap tefillin?
When was the last time?
I think that's calledkidnapping.
Anthony, I think you gotkidnapped yeah, yeah and you
know what I'm talking about withthe tefillin right like the.
(30:06):
I mean I couldn't explain to youthe, the religious the wrapping
, the leather, the the black,yeah around the arm and then the
no, he was asking me when wasthe last time you wrapped
tefillin and um or put it on?
I've had that question a coupleof times, a couple of times
from religious people.
Any time these days someoneoffers, I say yes, because it
usually has been years.
(30:27):
And it's just one of thosethings I have to say since
October 7 that I feel more drawnto those practices even though
I'm not religious.
I want to do it because itgives me some sense of like
ancient connection to my peoplethat goes back you know 3 000
years or more and that I justfeel an enormous sense of you
(30:50):
know just goodness around it,even though I don't believe in
this practice that I completelyrelate to, because I've always
been very skeptical of religionand have not been a very active
Muslim.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
And when I was even a practicing Muslim and I was in
university in America in between1998 and 2002.
And at the time I was drinkingalcohol and fornicating and all
of those things that you do as agood college student, and the
thing that happened was 9-11.
And post 9-11, it became veryscary to be a Muslim in America,
(31:22):
right?
Because all of a sudden it waslike all Muslims are terrorists
and that narrative started andthat pushed me towards being
more Muslim.
So for the remainder of theyear or so that I was in the US,
because people were saying,don't you dare be a Muslim, I
suddenly was like well, no, Ishall be one, because that is
(31:42):
part of my identity and youdon't get to tell me who.
And I suddenly was like, well,no, I shall be one, because that
is part of my identity and youdon't get to tell me who.
And I felt that connection andI embraced it more.
I started praying five times aday.
I would go to the mosque, youknow, I'd meet other Muslims and
spend time with the community.
It's when I moved to Pakistanyears later or into that at the
end of 2002.
And I then lived in a Muslimcountry.
Then I actually stopped beingMuslim because I felt suddenly A
(32:04):
the pressure was no longer.
That's an interesting thing aswell, because I want to ask you
about that, both of you is thepressure to be a Muslim is very
heavy from Muslim communitiesbecause Islam, particularly, is
a proselytizing religion.
Right, we're always looking toincrease our subscriber base,
like there's always that aspectof you know, how many more
Muslims can we add to thenumbers, whereas, as far as I
(32:26):
could tell, judaism doesn't havethat.
You're not looking to convertpeople to Judaism.
No, we don't want them.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Right.
The Jews are looking to convertthem to Sky News, but not to.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Judaism.
But what about the conservativeJews?
To the liberal Jews or to thecultural Jews?
So when Anthony said you meetOrthodox Jews, are they trying
to get you back into the fold?
Do you feel a pressure to dothat, or do you think they're
just being hospitable?
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Well, I like to think it's the latter, that they're
just being warm and hospitableand sharing their much deeper
knowledge of my own religionwith me.
But, Tammy, I guess I wasthinking about your experience,
because I suppose we're both ona similar point on the spectrum
of lapsedness in a way, but bothfeeling that pull towards the
(33:23):
culture, and I've certainly feltthat kind of need to reinforce.
Have you felt that too?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
I have and, following a conversation we had with Ben
M Freeman on this podcast a fewweeks ago, I no longer and this
is only in the past few weeks,and this is only in the past few
weeks I no longer refer tomyself as a lapsed Jew.
I am embracing my Jewishness.
It is my ethnicity, it is mybirthright, it's my ancestry.
(33:54):
It's really that conversationand I've had this feedback from
a lot of people thatconversation reframed everything
to the point where and I'm nottrying to convert you, Sammy,
but the fact that you're marriedto a Jewish woman and you bake
challah and you are havingconversations with John Safran
and you are involved in a Jewishcommunity Ben M Freeman and I,
(34:19):
speaking on behalf of him, wouldagree that you're Jewish.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
I mean, look, I do the same with many Christian
things as well.
I also, you know, make greatChristian cakes and things like
that.
I'm just saying You're alsoChristian.
I completely, yeah.
I like to think of myself as aperson who is outside all of it
and therefore can be in whateverhe likes, but I pick and choose
.
I mean, some of my heroes areJewish.
For example, I was discussingthis with Kylie the other day
(34:44):
the two things I love arestand-up comedy and comic books,
and both of those are Jewishart forms.
So there is that wholeconnection there.
But the idea of how theorthodox and the lapsed and
everything kind of connect isreally interesting to me because
, like you said, tammy, you nolonger consider yourself a
lapsed Jew.
Now does that mean when youpartake in the rituals of
(35:11):
Jewishness, like, for example, areligious event, do you believe
in a higher power now, or isthere a level of atheism that's
still present, or was that everthere?
Because I don't have that partyeah, I don't have that part.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Yeah, I don't have that part either.
I long to have that part.
Really so there's a God hole.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
There are many holes.
Well, no, that's a Marc Marondescription.
I'm quoting Marc Maron, thecomedian.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
He says there's a God hole and you're filling it with
things.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
It's in the chest, above the waist.
I think there's a spiritualityhole.
So I'm envious of my friendswho believe in a higher power.
I feel like there's an ease,there's a routine.
I put it in the same categoryas when I'm envious of a friend
who doesn't analyse things toodeeply, who are really, really
(36:06):
happy with their mediocrepartner working in a job that
doesn't take up too much brainpower.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
Oh dumb, people have the best life.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
I'm not saying that she's dumb.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
I'm just saying, of course you aren't, of course you
aren't.
She loves Fast and Furiousmovies and is always surprised
when there's a new one, and welove that about her, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
And the people listening underneath me.
It's not you.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
If you think it's you , it's not you, and if you're
the one thinking, that can't beme, it's you yeah, fair enough.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
So that's what I long for.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
I long for that belief that there is something
looking out for me, but do youstill enjoy and I think this
part is possible do you stillenjoy the ritual for the sake of
ritual?
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Yes, I think a lot of authors, a lot of writers and
creatives talk about this.
But especially when it comes tomourning and grieving rituals,
I really enjoy grief.
I really enjoy grief.
I really enjoy death.
Yeah, much more than marriagerituals, for sure.
I think there is somethingtherapeutic about saying the
mourner's prayer, the Kaddish.
(37:13):
Yes, I don't believe thatthere's God, but I think there's
something in the rhythm ofsaying that prayer, there's
something comforting.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
So would you both and this is for both of you, tammy
first and then Anthony want tobe buried in the Jewish way if
you were to die?
God forbid.
You know, heaven forbidtomorrow.
And also, was that always thecase, or has that changed?
Speaker 1 (37:35):
post-October 7th I thought about this in 2006 when
I made a will.
I went to a family friend, afamily lawyer, and I said I want
to be cremated, I want itwritten in my will, and my
family friend said, sure, happyto do that.
Just to let you know, thefamily doesn't really check the
(37:56):
will until after you're buriedand when you're dead you kind of
don't have much to say.
So I said, fine, let's do that.
I spoke to my family about it.
My mum's really into potteryand I really liked this vase
that she made out of mosaicedpieces of smashed crockery from
our childhood.
I said I want to be crematedand put in that she said
absolutely not.
(38:17):
Then, as a marriage celebrant, Iofficiated a funeral that took
place in a crematorium and Iwent backstage and saw what that
looked like almost fainted fromthe smell, and then I decided I
don't want to do that, theremust be another way.
And then last year I heard thisfantastic podcast not sure if
(38:38):
you're aware of it, sammy.
It's called Grave, gravematters and it's co-hosted by
anthony levin, uh, who I don'tknow if you've heard of him.
Have you, anthony?
Speaker 2 (38:47):
never.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
No, it was this clown co-hosted by anthony levin and
nadine j cohen, and that made merethink everything again, and
now I think I want to be turnedinto liquid.
I want, want to be what's thescientific term.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Aquamated?
I've never heard of that as anoption.
Yes, like water cremation.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
You've asked this question to the right person,
Sammy Water cremation.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
Hang on, hang on.
Basically, they turn you into aliquid form and then pour you
into the ocean.
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2 (39:21):
I believe you can be turned into a liquid form and
then pour you into the ocean.
Is that what you?
I believe you can be turnedinto a liquid, but that
generally that process, as Iunderstand it I'm no expert
produces a similar kind ofoutput to a regular furnace
based formation.
It's just using water alkalinehydrolysis to get there, so it's
just a different and it'sarguably less carbon intensive
(39:41):
process as well.
So thank you for the plug,tammy.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
By the way, At the end of cremation, you get a jar
full of ashes.
At the end of this, do you geta smoothie?
Like what exactly are you?
Is this boba?
What am I getting here?
Speaker 2 (39:56):
It's a smoothie you would send back at Boost Juice,
right.
But I think, look, what I cansay is that the field of
possibilities has opened up soradically in the last few years
that you can do almost anything.
You can be turned into diamonds, you can become a firework, you
can be liquid, you can be asmoothie.
You can really, honestly, youcan do almost anything.
(40:19):
It's really touching tabby thatyou were affected by.
You know those, thoseconversations, because that's
really nice.
That's really why we do it.
Shammy, like like my brand, ispartly death right.
So this is something I'vethought quite a lot about and,
in answer to your question, Idon't want to be buried in a
Jewish cemetery, even thoughthat's where all my family are.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Same.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
But I am very partial to a form of organic reduction
which is currently not legal inNew South Wales.
It's called natural organicreduction and it basically
involves chucking someone in avat with some bark chips and
some alfalfa, closing the lidand leaving them to kind of
(41:05):
ferment for a few weeks.
That's a very crude description.
In the more sophisticatedfacilities that do this, in
Washington, for example, ittakes about six to eight weeks
to reduce a human being to abouteight bags of soil.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
That's not that different from the Zoroastrian
method which I don't know if youknow about, which is the Tower
of Silence, where basically theycover you in yogurt, lay you
down in open air space and letthe birds consume you.
You know the carrion.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yes, so we don't have the carrion so much here, but
this method is veryenvironmentally friendly.
It's effectively carbon neutralif it's done properly.
And I like the idea for tworeasons.
One, because I like the ideathat you can become soil and
(41:53):
return to the earth and thatthat can be shared with so many
people.
Like everyone can get a littlebag of you and take you home and
put you in the garden right, Ireally like that idea.
But I also like the fact thatit doesn't contribute to the
destruction of the planet.
That's a big one for me and ittrumps my desire to be rotting
next to my grandmother or mymother.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Yes, and also because the Jewish cemetery in Sydney
is really far away from mostJews and people don't like to
schlep very far.
And so the idea of me beingthere, even though I'll be with
my old ancestors, my future, mykids, I don't want them to have
to go.
Oh, we have to drive toRookwood.
(42:35):
That decision is also based onme not wanting to burden my
children any more than Iinevitably will.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
That is a very Sydney excuse, though that is very
much a Sydney-siders hatetraveling from one part of the
city to the other part of thecity more than any place I've
met.
So because?
All right, so that'sinteresting to me, because
neither of you want to be buriedin jewish cemeteries, but also
neither of you want to be buried, it feels, whereas I have the
opposite thing.
Theoretically, I shouldn't carewhat happens after I die, but
(43:05):
the idea of being turned to ashor liquid or any of those things
freaks me out.
I want my body whole and Ithink it's because of that
childhood indoctrination intothe idea of the Day of Judgment,
which, in Islam, what happensthe Day of Judgment is all the
dead rise up and then zombiewalk to God and get judged and
(43:27):
I'm like, well, if I'm Ash, thenhow do I rise up again?
Which I suppose is a childishkind of metric in the back of my
head.
But more than that, I just likethe idea of being in the earth
and my family coming to visit me.
And you know, the joke I alwayssay is I'm going to hire a
woman to come and lay a red roseon my grave every time my
(43:48):
family is nearby, or and a womanto come and lay a red rose on
my grave every time my family isnearby and another person to
come and pour a glass of whiskeyand throw the glass at the
gravestone and walk away angrilyand they'd be like what the
hell was he up to when he'salive?
But I do like the idea of agrave.
I love going to graveyards, likeyou know the one in Melbourne.
I don't know if you've everbeen to the one here.
It's called Graveyard.
It's a huge graveyard nearPrincess Park and there's a
(44:10):
Jewish section.
There's obviously a Christiansection, which is the majority
of it.
There's also a Chinese section.
There's an Italian section.
There's a few Muslim graves.
I really like it.
I like the idea of you knowsomeone coming to my grave and I
always wonder whether that isinduct.
You know whether that is induct.
You know that, whether that's alittle bit of the muslim in me
(44:31):
still being reluctant to let goof that side of it or not.
So I find it fascinating thatboth of you, even though you've
gravitated more towards yourjewishness in the last few years
, have found this as an aspectthat you're still fairly
confidently not going tocompromise on.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
But we're probably not representative of the wider
community, would you say,anthony, should I do an
Instagram poll following this tosee where we are?
Speaker 3 (44:54):
I know more Jews like you guys than I do who aren't
yeah, although it might be justbecause the communities I hang
out in are more comedy and stufflike that.
But yeah, I know morenon-practicing than I do.
In fact, the only likepracticing like not orthodox,
but like not orthodox but likebelieving Jewish comedian that I
(45:14):
know would be Alex Edelman andhe's in the US and he kind of
stands out for that reason Goodflex.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
I would hazard a guess that this might be a
little bit generational and thatmaybe our peers in their
mid-40s and late 30s might havemore congruent views on this
issue than their baby boomerparents, for example.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Yeah, it could also be like our parents, the boomers
, could afford to buy a house.
They could also afford to buy aplot, but our generation can't
even afford to rent, so we'renot even thinking about buying a
that's not a bad point, by theway, that is expensive.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Yeah, yeah, big funeral really has a
stranglehold on uh, on what youcan do, and uh makes it
difficult apparently like.
Speaker 3 (46:05):
So the italian people I know from the Italian
community.
They've told me and this mightbe apocryphal, but I'm pretty
sure it isn't that some of thefunerals can cost and the
gravestones and everything,because they're marble and all
that can cost up to $100,000.
Like, families go into debt.
Burying someone yes, the wayyou know weddings and stuff.
So it's kind of crazy that wayas well I don't think that's
(46:26):
apocryphal.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
I I have heard that too.
Um, probably 100k is probablyat the top of the spectrum there
.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
But yes, yeah I'm so glad that you asked that
question, because now I knowthat when anthony dies, he wants
to be kombucha for a bit um, Iwould like to turn to tea green
tea tea.
Speaker 3 (46:47):
I'm a green tea fan.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
And you want to be bone Sammy.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
Yeah, I want to be the entire whole piece of me.
I want to be buried like Lenin.
It's a see-through plexiglassthing where you can still see my
body mummified 100 years later.
I want people to come and visit.
We're not talking about.
John, we're talking about the,yeah yeah, yeah, no, no,
vladimir, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
I think that's a great way to wrap up today's
conversation.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
From birth to life and penises in between.
We got everything done.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
Sami Shah, thank you so much for joining us on A
Shame to Ask.
You've been a dream guest.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
I've been degrading the podcast everywhere I
possibly can with my appearance,but thank you for indulging me.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
That was Sami the Holla King Shah, and that's it
for this week.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
You've been listening to A Shame to Ask, a shame to
admit sibling podcast with me,Tammy Sussman and Anthony Levin,
who is filling in for DashLawrence.
This episode was mixed andedited by Nick King, with theme
music by Donovan Jenks.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
If you like the podcast, leave a positive review
, tell your people or encourageyour third cousin's cousin to
advertise on the show.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yeah, tell them that this episode was nearly as
enjoyable as an Anthony Levinkombucha.
You can tell us what you'reashamed to admit via the contact
form on the Jewish Independentwebsite.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
Thank you so much for listening and look out for
another instalment next week.
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