February 10, 2025 • 50 mins
ATA is back. In their first episode for season 3, Dash and Tami discuss the summer of antisemitic attacks launched on Australian Jews. Who is behind the incidents? What is motivating them? How can it be stopped? Dr Josh Roose, political sociologist from Deakin University, shares his analysis.
Relevant articles:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/a-week-of-fighting-australias-antisemitism-crisis
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/dark-star-elon-musk-antisemitism
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/the-disturbing-reason-why-pro-palestine-protesters-wont-stop
Email your feedback and voice memos here: ashamed@thejewishindependent.com.au
Subscribe to The Jewish Independent's bi-weekly newsletter: jewishindependent.com.au
Tami and Dash on Instagram: tami_sussman_writer_celebrant and dashiel_and_pascoe
X: TJI_au
YouTube: thejewishindependentAU
Facebook: TheJewishIndependentAU
Instagram: thejewishindependent
LinkedIn: the-jewish-independent
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in
Australia, the Middle East andthe world at large?
But a little bit ashamed thatyou're barely keeping up to date
.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Well, you've come to the right place.
I'm Dash Lawrence and in thispodcast series, your dazed and
confused third cousin, TammySussman, and I call on experts
and each other to address allthe ignorant questions you might
be too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Join us as we have a go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Welcome to the third season of the Jewish Independent
podcast.
A shame to admit.
Hello everyone, happy 2025.
Not sure if I can still saythat it's February.
(01:00):
I'm Dash Lawrence, executiveDirector here at the Jewish
Independent.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
And I'm Tammy.
It's a miracle I haven't uppedmy meds, Sussman.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
You've just managed to get your eldest into school.
You're living through a Sydneyheat wave.
You're just barely keeping up.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
And, on top of all of that, what used to be just
casual racism has now becomeovert racism in Sydney,
australia, for our internationallisteners or those in Australia
perhaps being served differentnews on their algorithm.
We've been experiencing a waveof anti-Semitic attacks against
(01:47):
Jewish institutions, synagogues,childcare centres, even
individuals, across the country,but particularly in Sydney, and
this has led to a lot of thepeople in my circles people in
(02:07):
my circles, specifically theJewish people having some
serious conversations aboutwhether or not it's safe for us
to stay in Australia.
Dash.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Wow Okay, how serious are these conversations?
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I thought they were joking, but they're quite
serious, and a little squiz onthe Facebook group Jews of
Sydney was really enlighteningfor me.
I'm going to read you a postthat someone wrote.
They wrote in light of therecent anti-Semitic events in
Sydney, I've been wondering hasanyone in our community thought
(02:42):
more seriously about makingAliyah and moving to Israel?
With the rise in antisemitismglobally, we are re-evaluating
where we feel safest and most athome.
So there are a few responses.
One person said I grew up inIsrael and moved here nine years
ago.
The rise in anti-Semitism isextremely disturbing and
(03:05):
concerning.
However, I am not running tothe bomb shelter multiple times
a day and people in Sydneyaren't getting kidnapped from
their beds to Gaza.
My daughter won't be forced toserve in the military and I can
only hope she will never learnthe fear of living through war
and intifada.
Another person said we madeAliyah six years ago and I feel
(03:26):
so very blessed to live inIsrael.
I'm very happy not to be inAustralia and facing the rising
tide of antisemitism.
All roads in this chat wereleading to Israel.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
And.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
I thought that's pretty far away, Like that's a
big leap.
I was thinking hypothetically,if I had to move with my family
somewhere, I mean I would choosemaybe New Zealand because it's
pretty close and they don't haveany scary spiders there.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I'm pretty sure the Jewish community in New Zealand
would have a few things to sayabout how comfortable or safe
Jews in New Zealand feel as well.
Yeah, they probably do so.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I went to chat GPT.
I went to my rabbi.
This is what I asked what arethe safest countries for Jewish
people to live in in 2025?
What do you think chat GPT saidwas the safest country for jews
to live in in 2025?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
according to rabbi chat gpt.
We know that chat gpt is alittle bit behind on the news,
so is it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm prettysure it's not going to give you
the most up-to-date takes, soanything that's happened in the
last few months could be wrongabout this.
(04:49):
It's not going to be across.
Okay, so you might havepreviously had said Greenland,
but that's apparently that's noteven safe anymore.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Really what, only in the past few months?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Well, insofar as Donald Trump's now saying that
he's seriously consideringtaking it over for the United
States, look what would ChatGPTsay?
I don't know, tell me, tammy.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
No.
What do you think is number onesafest country for Jewish
people?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
ChatGPT moves in very mysterious ways.
It's possible that it wouldhave actually come back with
Israel.
It did yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
It said.
The pros are that it's a Jewishmajority state, strong legal
protections and Jewish cultureis central.
The cons security risks due toregional conflicts and terrorism
threats.
Okay, number two.
What do you reckon?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
United States.
Okay, Number two.
What do you reckon?
United States?
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Yep Pros large and diverse Jewish community.
Legal protection, strongadvocacy groups.
Cons rising antisemitism insome areas, including violent
attacks and campus tensions.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Number three I feel like this is now potentially in
order of Jewish population size.
I think the next on the listwould be Canada.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, government pros government policies against
hate crimes.
Active Jewish communities inToronto, montreal and Vancouver
Cons some increase inanti-Semitic incidents, though
still lower than in the US.
But I just have to say I thinkthat Australians would really
struggle in Canada because ofthe weather.
(06:32):
We're not used to such coldwinters so I don't think that we
would survive there.
Based on that, I think that wewould find the super cold
winters there antisemitic.
I think that we would find thesuper cold winters there.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Anti-semitic, we would love the bagels, though
they do a very particular typeof bagel in Montreal.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
They do, but I think we would get depressed from
vitamin D deficiency and wewouldn't even have the co-op to
get out to buy the bagels.
I think that's what wouldhappen.
No, your theory is wrong.
If you're going by populationsize, number four was Australia,
followed by the United Kingdom.
At number six was Germany.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
The pros strong legal measures against antisemitism
and government actively combatshate speech.
The cons resurgence offar-right extremism in some
areas, absolutely thealternative for Deutschland.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
the AfD is 100% on the march and would be quite
possibly a coalition partner inthe next German government, and
they are no friends of theJewish community.
So yeah, I would beg to differ.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
I also think that Sydney Jews would struggle in
Germany because they're sopro-public transport and we're
not used to that, so I thinkwe'd feel really unstable there.
Number seven is Portugal.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
This surprised me.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Oh okay, all right, that is very unusual Low
anti-Semitic incidents,welcoming policies and a growing
Jewish community.
Number eight will surprise you,dash.
What do you reckon number eightis?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Like, given that we're now scraping the bottom of
the barrel with places likePortugal, I'm going to throw
something really odd out thereand say Singapore.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
No.
Oh okay, united Arab Emirates.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Oh God, this is ridiculous.
Tammy, you have to stop turningto ChatGPT for your research.
That's just-.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Listen to what ChatGPT said.
It said it's surprisingly safedue to the Abraham Accords and a
growing Jewish presence inDubai.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yes, and we know what happened to that growing Jewish
presence.
There was a Chabad rabbi thatwas killed only a few months ago
.
So no, it is not a safe place.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Okay.
So having ruled out Canadabecause of the weather, I
thought, well, maybe the UnitedStates is an option.
But then I remembered well, theUnited States isn't a great
place to be right now if you'rea woman, right.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Vis-a-vis reproductive rights.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Yeah, yeah.
So I asked Rabbi Chach EBT topcountries for both Jewish people
and women.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Right.
Much more focused question asof 2025,.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
What do you think was number one country, as both a
Jew and a woman?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
This is getting very niche now, tammy, I can't guess?
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Tell me.
Okay.
Number one was Canada, but whatI should have said was top
countries for both Sydney-bornJewish people and women.
So we've cut Canada out becauseof the cold weather.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
So next on the list is actually Australia.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Because it has an active Jewish community,
especially in Sydney andMelbourne.
Antisemitism exists, but it'srelatively low.
So you've now told me that thisis a few months behind.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
So that makes sense now that it's put it there, yeah
.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
But women's safety.
They have a high quality oflife, strong legal protections,
good healthcare and economicopportunities.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
You would beg to differ.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Some would beg to differ.
Number three is Portugal.
It has very low antisemiticincidents.
Just a reminder welcomingpolicies and some Sephardic,
jewish history.
It's just thrown in there.
So I think, if you're aSephardi Jewish woman living in
Sydney, this is the place foryou.
(10:44):
It has low crime rates in termsof women's safety, apparently,
and progressive gender equalitylaws.
I think Dash, I'm going tostart a movement.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
A movement of Sydney Jews to Portugal, sydney Jewish
women to Portugal.
Yeah, also has very liberalapproaches to the use of
recreational drugs.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Boomtown.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
If you are looking for a place to be a Jewish woman
and you love your party drugs,that is the place for you to go.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
At this year's Seder I'm going to be saying next year
in Portugal.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Next year in Lisbon.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Girlies.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Doesn't have to be just Lisbon.
Porto is also a beautiful city.
Don't know how many Jewishpeople there are in Porto, but-.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Well, I'll tell you how many there will be next year
.
Yeah, 20,000.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Tammy, yet again, I sense that this is a way for you
to manage and cope with theheaviness of this time.
You know me too well, but we doneed to get back to our focus
of today's show.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
We began this show by acknowledging the recent wave
of attacks against Jewish peoplein Australia of late and, as
your dazed and confused thirdcousin, dear listener, I had
some questions that I brought toDash.
I wanted to know if he thoughtthese incidents were organized
(12:16):
by criminal gangs or are theythe result of copycat attacks by
just a handful of individuals?
Copycat attacks by just ahandful of individuals, and I
was really curious to know whathe thought the motivations of
these attackers were.
And at the time of recording wedon't have answers to this one.
Dash, even though you're supersmart, you humbly told me that
(12:41):
you don't have all the answersto those questions, but you did
find someone who could shed somelight on the rise of violent
extremism in Australia and inthe West more broadly.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
I did, tammy.
Dr Josh Roos is a politicalsociologist and associate
professor of politics at theAlfred Deakin Institute for
Citizenship and Globalization atDeakin University.
Josh is an internationallyrecognized authority on the role
of masculinities and ideologiesin violent extremism and
(13:20):
terrorism.
He's also an expert on theattraction of men to Salafi
jihadist movements, extremeright and violent misogynistic
and anti-democratic movementsand new forms of violent
extremist ideologies ascendantaround the world.
Josh is one of a small group ofacademics who have been willing
(13:42):
to speak out on attacksdirected at Jewish communities
in Australia and around theworld since October 7th, and we
thought what better person toget on the show to talk about
this really concerning wave ofviolence and attacks that we've
seen over the summer here inAustralia.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
We need to start by thanking you, Josh, for joining
us on A Shame to Admit.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Thank you for having me, Josh.
Can you help our listenersunderstand a little bit about
the focus of your research?
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Yeah, sure, I do a lot of research around the ugly
things in society.
I look at political andreligious violence, violent
extremism, terrorism, and I lookacross the spectrum.
So I look at the far right.
I look at different forms ofreligious extremism, in
particular Salafi jihadism, butalso Christian nationalism.
I look at the extreme left,Basically anywhere that there's
(14:56):
individuals or groups that holdideological perspectives that
are anti-democratic but alsoviolent and that seek to harm
others.
I do funded research projectsinto them and do a fair bit of
public commentary around theseissues too.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Investigations are continuing and, as of yet, state
and federal police have notindicated a motivation.
They've been very tight-lippedabout the wave of attacks and
violence that we've seen,particularly in Sydney, in the
past few months.
I'm wondering how you've beenlooking at these attacks and
whether you have already beendeveloping a hypothesis in your
(15:38):
mind.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Yeah, well, I think to look at these attacks, we've
got to go a little bit back intime and provide some context,
and when I say I look atdifferent forms of political and
religious extremism, amongstthe very worst of those is
anti-Semitism, historicallyspeaking, but also, whenever it
pops up, it's effectively thecanary in the coal mine for a
much deeper and more dangeroustime, and I think, unfortunately
(16:02):
, that's where we find ourselvesat the moment.
Anti-semitism has been on theincrease in Australia for about
a decade.
There's some amazing peopleJulie Nathan and others who
captured that data for at leasta couple of decades and
published it, and around 2014-15it was on the uptick.
It went up during COVID, whenwe saw a lot of conspiratorial
(16:22):
movements pop back up alongsidethe extreme right, and behind
every good conspiracy theory isan anti-semitic trope where it's
jews pulling the strings,holding all the power and
basically exploiting the poorwhite man is effectively the
narrative.
Now that's, um, you know, takena bit of hold, particularly
(16:43):
online amongst some of theseanti-government groups and
extremist groups.
It's always been there inelements of various communities,
but what we've seenparticularly post-October 7, was
a dramatic escalation inanti-Semitism.
Now, that's paradoxical becauseI would have thought and it
(17:03):
shocked me because in theaftermath of October 7, where
Jews were clearly targeted forgenocidal violence, you would
have thought there would havebeen a sympathy directed towards
Jewish communities and a formof solidarity extended to them,
but amongst many, it wasconflated with anti-Israel
activism on the left.
(17:24):
Unfortunately, what we saw onOctober 9 on the steps of the
Sydney Opera House, where, again, young men from the extreme
fringes of the Muslim communityand they are known as Salafis
and Salafi jihadists weregathered around, screaming fuck
the Jews and gas the Jews, andso, to that extent, that was a
really important moment, becausefrom there it's spiral.
(17:47):
We already knew that theextreme right were active, going
into Jewish areas andattempting to intimidate and
threaten, but what we saw thenwas this convergence of extreme
left, extreme right, fringeelements of the Muslim community
, and from there we saw majorpolitical parties jump on board.
We saw an entire onlinecampaign directed towards Jewish
(18:10):
communities, in particular,those who believe that Israel
has a right to exist.
So this particular moment, whenwe look at these attacks as
they're occurring in Sydney inparticular, but also more
recently in Melbourne we have tounderstand that this is part of
a broader series and set ofdevelopments.
Now what we're seeing currentlyappears, at least based on very
(18:34):
recent reporting, to be peoplewho don't fit the profile of the
traditional anti-Semite.
We're looking at people whoaren't particularly politically
active, apparently don't appearto be advocates or activists.
We see people who appear toeffectively be tools carrying
out attacks on behalf of others,allowing them to keep at arm's
(18:54):
length.
Now that's a new development.
It's not something I've got myhead around and I am reliant on
the media and reporting for someof this, but it's a dangerous
new development because itindicates that there's money and
there's funding behind elementsof this as well, and there's
criminal elements involved, andwe know that criminal elements
are always going to be open toextreme violence.
(19:16):
So if you understand recentdevelopments in the context of
that broader set of developments, it's a dangerous time.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
I have a question at this point.
I'm ashamed to admit I've neverheard the term Salafi jihadism.
I've heard jihadism, but Ihaven't heard Salafi jihadism.
What is it?
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Yeah.
So a lot of my research hasworked on and with Muslim
communities and I've met somegreat, amazing people who are
contributing to Australia andhave no interest in extremism in
any way, shape or form.
However, just like the extremefringe of Christianity and I had
a grandfather who was a prettyfundamentalist Christian
minister, he used to Bible bashme and so on the extreme fringe
(20:00):
of most religions, there's ahard line, a conservative
element, and in the case ofIslam they're known as Salafis.
Now, it's a puritanical form ofIslam.
It's talking about the returnto the time of the prophet and
seeking to live like the prophetdid, based on the practices of
the prophet and his companions.
So there's rules about how longyou can grow your beard, how
(20:24):
you live your life, what you canand can't do, and so on.
By itself, that's aconservative form of Islam and
it's reasonably harmless.
It's much like any other formof conservative religion.
But you start to then moveacross the spectrum into
political Salafism.
So we see groups like Hizbut-Tahrir emerge who advocate
for a caliphate, advocate forviolence, but very subtly, not
(20:50):
in a way that allows them to beframed as supporting terrorism,
but they'll talk in very broadterms.
So that's political Salafismand it's a form of activism.
And again, within a democracy,arguably there's space for that
to occur.
But then you talk about Salafijihadism.
Now, within Islam, jihad is.
There's two forms of jihad,effectively.
(21:11):
There's the greater jihad,which is a spiritual struggle
against the nafs and againsttemptation, but then there's
jihad, as in holy war, againstthose who are slighting Muslims
or the non-believers.
Now, salafi jihadists prettymuch ignore the greater struggle
, the spiritual struggle to bebetter Muslims.
Their focus is very much in thehere and now and the fight and
(21:33):
the warrior status that thatbestows upon them.
And you'll find that many Salafijihadists are angry young men
who are drawn to the narrativeof a warrior, drawn to the
narrative of fighting andbelonging to something bigger
than themselves.
That offers them a form ofsolidarity.
It's highly multicultural.
It doesn't matter where you'refrom as long as you're part of
(21:55):
that sort of group.
Now, many of them have beenevicted from mainstream mosques
or even conservative Salafimosques.
They're at the extreme fringeof the Muslim communities.
However, in any community ofthe size of the Australian
Muslim community, there's goingto still be a number, and so in
that context, we understand thatwe're looking at a very small
element, but a very vocal, veryangry element of Muslim
(22:18):
communities there.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
So, Josh, when you look at these attacks both the
attacks here in Melbourne,thinking of the Adas Israel
firebombing and the graffiti andfirebombing of the childcare
centre and several other attacksin Sydney in recent months Do
(22:40):
you see anything about thoseattacks that have the hallmarks
of Salafi jihadism, or is thispotentially?
I mean, you mentioned beforethat the people that have been
arrested in relation to some ofthese attacks are career
criminals and not those that youtypically attach to political
(23:02):
motivations.
So would we expect Salafijihadists to be engaging with
violence through intermediaries,or does this perhaps indicate
some other form of politicalviolence?
Speaker 3 (23:18):
That's a really excellent question and it's not
easy to answer without somespeculation.
So I think the caveat toanything I say here is
speculation and I prefer tospeak purely based on facts as a
scholar.
But I will elaborate to anextent.
What we have is a communitythat are angry about what's
going on in Gaza.
Generally speaking, muslimcommunities feel that deeply,
(23:41):
much as Jewish communities herefeel that deeply.
There's a polarisation on bothends and a binary has emerged.
But what we see with theseextreme fringes in particular is
that many of the criminalelements and gangs have a Middle
Eastern component, or some ofthem have a Middle Eastern
component, particularly inSydney, and there's an
intersection between some ofthose actors and Salafi
(24:02):
jihadists who are in prison.
Often they intersect with eachother or engage with each other
in prisons, and so there ispotentially an element there
where there could be some formof interaction between criminal
gangs and Salafi jihadists, butwe don't know enough, and that's
what I've got to say clearly.
We don't know whether or notthey're influencing one another,
(24:24):
whether or not they're actingthrough these gangs and their
resources to carry out theseattacks.
That's one possible component.
Another is that we've seen inEurope, we've seen the Iranian
government active in targetingJewish embassies.
And there's concern at leastsome speculation there about the
role of the Iranian governmentin Amsterdam with the Israeli
(24:48):
football team and the riots thattargeted Jewish supporters
there and the rights thattargeted Jewish supporters there
.
But unfortunately, for better orworse, we just don't know
enough at this point.
Intelligence agencies keepthese cards close to their chest
, for good reason, because theyneed to understand what's going
on and not necessarily alertindividuals and groups that
they're being monitored.
(25:08):
So to this extent we're kind ofstuck.
It's thinking about who mightbe behind it.
It is certainly an unusualdevelopment but beyond
speculation based on some verybasic and broad set of facts, we
don't know enough.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
As strange as this may seem, josh, and it's
certainly not an analysis that Itake, but I want to put it to
you because I'm interested inyour response there are some who
look at these attacks, thesewave of anti-Semitism we've seen
this summer, as connected toand part of a broader wave of
(25:43):
violence directed not just atJews but also at Arabs and
anti-Palestinian racism inAustralia and part of a wave of
these people would say, ofIslamophobia.
I'm interested in what you makeof that analysis.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Another on-point, excellent question.
It's hard to unpack,particularly for the layperson,
as to what's going on.
Look, on the one hand, any formof racism and discrimination is
terrible.
Australia is a multiculturalcountry with all the baggage
that that carries, but in worldterms, an incredibly successful
country that has brought peoplein from around the world.
(26:25):
However, I don't think that atthis particular point in time,
you can necessarily talk aboutanti-Semitism and anti-Muslim
racism in the same vein.
I think there is a stronghistory of anti-Muslim racism,
particularly after the 9-11attacks, where Muslim
communities felt themselves tobe targeted and certainly
received the full weight of thelaw and surveillance and media
(26:48):
condemnation and so on for aprolonged period of time.
But I think we've actuallymoved a little bit beyond that.
I wouldn't put anti-Semitism inthe current moment in that same
boat.
Right now, I think, whilstanti-Muslim racism continues and
bigots are going to be bigotsand attack people they don't
like of all persuasions, I thinkanti-Semitism to me at this
particular moment, given itsincrease, its rapid escalation
(27:12):
and extreme vitriol and itsescalation to violence in the
way that it has to me, it's gotto be understood as a different
issue and the issue at thisparticular moment.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Josh, you mentioned that there are a lot of young,
isolated men who are making upquite a big number of these
extremists and the peoplecarrying out these attacks, and
your research pays particularattention to the intersection
between masculinity andextremism.
(27:44):
So are you able to help me andour listeners understand the
relationship between misogyny ortoxic masculinity, say, and
expressing violence and hatredtowards Jewish people?
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Yeah, great question.
So what we see is across thespectrum of extremist actors
could be religious, political.
They're primarily made up ofyoung men.
And they're primarily made upof young men, irrespective of
their education or theirsocioeconomic class, who don't
feel themselves to be on anupward social trajectory.
(28:19):
And I use trajectory as animportant point, because if you
feel like you're going well inlife, you're not going to go and
turn to extremist narrativesthat offer you something else.
So it doesn't matter whereyou're from.
You might be wealthy and stillfeel like you're going down on
this horrible path.
You could be quite welleducated, but at the end of the
day, you feel like you're goingnowhere, you're stagnant, you're
(28:41):
going backwards and you resentthat.
You feel a sense of shame andhumiliation.
These are deep emotions thatlead to anger, and anger is the
driving force.
Now, anger is not always a badthing.
Anger can be righteous andachieve positive social change
and civil rights, but what wesee is an anger that is focused
on the other, blaming someoneelse for their particular lot in
(29:06):
life, and Jews have always,throughout history, formed the
basis for someone to resent.
Jewish communities havetraditionally been successful
economically, culturally andreally batted above and beyond
their weight in terms ofpopulation size, and so for
groups who are looking todemonise others and looking to
(29:28):
find someone to blame for theirparticular location, it's the
perfect scapegoat.
In many respects, jewishcommunities are small.
They're often quite insular,geographically centred and, to
that extent, quite easy totarget.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
That's a really different answer to what I
thought you were going to say.
I thought maybe you were goingto say because they consider
women to be less than, and theyalso consider the Jew to be less
than or subhuman, and thereforethat's how they intersect.
So that's quite a surprisinganswer.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Josh, as a sociologist, how do you explain
this rise of all forms ofpolitical extremism that young,
angry men seem to be attractedto, be it from the extreme left
or the extreme right?
Speaker 3 (30:17):
I'll start at the front and work back.
People get angry when they feellike they've had respect
withheld from them andrecognition withheld from them,
and that leads, as I said, toemotions like shame, humiliation
.
If you've ever beendisrespected, you feel that
deeply, but for days the oddoccasion it happens to me I'm
dwelling on it weeks later it's,you know, angry about it.
Same, yeah.
(30:38):
And so take that but apply itacross the lifespan of feeling
that way and then take it acrossa group of people who might
have shared similar experiencesand you start to see how these
groups form and the basis oftheir talk.
You could also step back andplace this in context of what's
gone on really over the last 80to 100 years.
(30:58):
Well, let's start with thepost-World War II economy, which
was, on the one hand, out ofthe UK, centered on welfare
support for the working man itwas always the men in particular
and a sort of role for biggovernment you know the National
Health Service and that spreadacross the Commonwealth
countries, in, in particular,less influential in the us, but
it was about developing agovernment that sort of looked
(31:20):
after its people, that welfaresort of state, but continental
scholars, and actually I shouldsay it formed out of this
christian socialist thing inoxford, cambridge, lse.
But these continentalphilosophers identified big
government with totalitarianismand so some were LSE and others
and they left and they went tothe Chicago school and so at the
University of Chicago we sawthe birth of free market
(31:43):
economics.
And in free market economicsgovernment's got to get out of
the way.
Any impediment to the freeoperation of the market gets out
of the way.
There's no space for tradeunions, which have traditionally
offered a form of solidarityfor working people.
There's no space for church andreligion, which offers a form
of status for the man as thehead of the household but also
(32:03):
community, and church attendancewas around the 50% mark in most
Western countries in the 70s.
It's now about 10%.
Trade union membership wasabout 50% to 60%, in some places
down to about 10%.
So there's no space anymore forsolidarity and belonging and
feeling like you belong tosomething bigger than yourself.
(32:24):
Community is dead.
I can't tell you how manyneighbours I would know by name.
We're very focused on theindividual and with that came
cuts to the economy, cuts totraditional male roles.
As the economy has evolved andbecome more technologically
sophisticated, we've gone fromthe blue-collar miner, sort of
hero of the working class, tothe service economy, which
(32:46):
favours younger women.
We've moved into the corporateworld, where women have
hard-fought protections againstdiscrimination, sexual
discrimination, harassment,maternity leave.
All of a sudden, that idea of ajob for life for the male,
protections againstdiscrimination, sexual
discrimination, harassment,maternity leave and all of a
sudden that idea of a job forlife for the male, the single
breadwinner, no longer exists.
(33:07):
You now need two incomes to buya home, and men are competing
against incredibly well-educated, articulate women for the same
jobs.
And so there's this sense ofnostalgia for this long-lost
past where men could be men andwere celebrated and you only
need to have a household.
You've only got to go ontothese sites to look at the way
they idealize the past.
And so there's this you know,call for return to that, and
(33:27):
then you see them while thenazis, for example, is there
stuff.
I think I've talked aboutkitchen, church children.
That was a German translation,but that resonates with the here
and now.
For young men you can't afforda home who aren't necessarily
getting married, because womentraditionally marry at level or
up.
Men tend to marry at level orsocioeconomically lower, and so
(33:52):
women are less likely to marrythem, and so, for the first time
in the US, there are now moresingle men than there are women,
and so we're seeing thisphenomenon occur, where the
feminisation of work and society, particularly due to technology
, which eradicates physicaldifferences, creates this space
for this deep resentment.
And where are people goingOnline?
They're going online to findthose solidarities and
(34:13):
belongings and communities.
They're forming these oftenhateful groups online that
radicalise each other and inciteand support each other and
share the same views.
So violent misogyny, extremeright, extreme religious
organisations and groups arefinding solidarities at a
transnational level.
Now they're speaking to eachother across national borders,
(34:36):
across state borders, andthey're building these online
communities that operate in thehere and now, where someone
might not know the name of theirneighbour, but they know that
their best friends are on theother side of the world.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
As you mentioned, josh, social media, the online
world, gives places and spacesfor these people to propagate
their ideas and to connect andto find belonging, to spread
their hate, spread their reallyodious views.
In the last 48 hours, thesocial media platform X has
(35:10):
suspended the accounts ofNational Socialist Network
leaders, Thomas Sewell and BlairCottrell, two men who have very
much had Jews in their sightsin recent years.
Can you talk about the tensionin liberal democracies like ours
here in Australia between, onthe one hand, protecting free
(35:32):
speech and, on the other, freespeech and, on the other,
preventing the spread of thesekinds of hate-filled ideas that
ultimately do, as you've beensaying, contribute to a context
in which violence against Jewishpeople is seen and maybe even
(35:53):
one day tolerated?
Speaker 3 (35:56):
Yeah, I think we start by distinguishing
extremism from hate, anddemocracy requires some extreme
ideas across the politicalspectrum.
It requires people to voicethose ideas and for them to be
debated, and in some cases,extreme ideas become mainstream.
So I'll go back again to thecivil rights movement, who were
(36:17):
marginal in the 60s and theirideas are now embedded in our
laws.
It was considered extreme tobelieve in gay rights once upon
a time, so you do need peoplewho push the envelope and you
don't always have to agree wherethey come from.
That's an inherent component ofdemocracy.
But free speech was neverinscribed in the
Australianralian constitution.
We are not americans where it'sheld up on this platform, as
(36:41):
you know beyond reproach.
I think where we have to draw aline is between extreme ideas
that can be debated and hate,and hate is inherently linked to
violence.
And you can you can sayhate-filled uh things online or
face to face that have implicitin them a violence.
And you talk about, talk aboutmass deportations.
(37:02):
Well, you're talking aboutdeath.
You're talking aboutdestruction, you're talking
about the start of genocide.
So when the extreme right talkabout that, well, that's at the
heart of what they're talkingabout, this ideal picture of how
it was once in Germany in the1930s and 40s.
That's their reference point.
So you've got to call a spade aspade and for me it's quite
(37:23):
simple.
I think there should be a zerotolerance threshold for hate,
online or in person.
People tend to get away withthis online because they hide
behind anonymity.
They hide behind masks when theyshow up at these rallies, and
there's a reason they're hidingbehind that.
Because they hide behindanonymity, they hide behind
masks when they show up at theserallies, and there's a reason
they're hiding behind thatbecause they know that if they
put their face to that and theirname to that, they're
unemployable and society wouldreject them and ostracise them.
(37:46):
And I think you know, listeningto the parliamentary debates
over the last two days aroundthe new laws that are coming in,
around mandatory sentences andso on and I'm yet to get my head
around it, so I won't pass anopinion but I think we're at a
point now where you've gotextreme actors in society trying
to foment hate violence and ina democracy, the only thing you
(38:10):
can do is stamp it out.
I think if you look at historicprecinct, if it had been
stamped out earlier withvigorous action, criminalisation
and so on, I don't think wewould have seen some of the
events that we've seenthroughout history.
So you know, does that lead toan authoritarian state?
Well, I don't believe so, but Ithink we do need to draw a line
(38:32):
at hate and at violence.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Was that encouraging to see that X had suspended
those accounts?
Because we know that thingshave changed a hell of a lot
since Elon Musk took ownershipof X and there's been a lot of
concern that this is nowincreasingly a place home to
some pretty odious and hatefulactors and that that's gone
(39:02):
unchecked.
So are you encouraged?
Speaker 3 (39:05):
by this.
I think it's quite surprisingthat it played out the way it
did.
I think what we saw was anincreasing level of agility, I
suppose by the government,because it struggled to get X to
take them seriously and to act.
But you know, first of all,they've taken down Terragram and
they're talking about financialsanctions against online actors
.
I mean, that's prettyunprecedented.
(39:27):
And now, more recently, doolCottrell, more recently, joel
Davis and Ezeal have all hadtheir accounts taken down and
now, using these accounts totarget, harass people, make
veiled threats, intimidate.
You know, myself included,they've had a go at me and you
know it's pathetic.
But it's also something youignore at your own peril.
(39:51):
You know, and I think gettingthose accounts taken down in the
context of everything we'reseeing overseas and I think the
context of Musk and his recentbehaviour, and we're still
seeing, and I think the contextof musk and his recent behavior
and we're still seeing itgetting taken off x I think that
signals a serious breakthroughfor the government in regulating
online hate aside fromregulating online hate and
putting pressure on these socialmedia organisations to take
(40:17):
this seriously and suspend theseaccounts, and aside, obviously,
from empowering authorities,agencies, police and the like to
investigate and to prosecutethe offenders and those guilty
of anti-Semitic attacks, whatelse can be done to halt this
(40:38):
current wave of violence thatwe're seeing?
Yeah, look, unfortunately we arein a period of reaction where
we're scrambling to develop thelaws to respond to it smack it
on the head, so to speak.
You know that's not sustainableover the long term.
There's an enormous amount ofwork to be done, what is
traditionally considered thesoft edge of all this, but
(40:59):
that's actually the real hardwork.
It's the grind, it's buildingdialogue, it's building
connections again, because Ithink, generally speaking, all
communities in Australia,irrespective of where people's
heritage is and where they comefrom, have a vested interest in
a safe, prosperous, secureAustralia where people
(41:22):
demonstrate a modicum of respectto one another in public space,
might hold vastly differentviews but agree to abide by
Australian law and look afterour country and grow our country
, because we are incrediblylucky to live here.
And I think it comes down torebuilding dialogue across
different lines, rebuildingrelationships and also, you know
(41:44):
, we've seen a lot of politicalpoint scoring, a lot of public
statements, but at the end ofthe day, we've also seen, more
recently, some bipartisanshiprejecting this For better or
worse.
Irrespective of people'spolitical opinions, both major
parties have come together,irrespective of the politics of
it, to condemn it and to act andthe vote, I think, in
parliament today or thereaboutsshould demonstrate that.
(42:07):
So it's the hard work.
The real work is education,reaching the schools, reaching
and developing those connections, um, not only um healing I
think the jewish community's gotsome healing to do after as a
result of all this trauma.
Schools reaching and developingthose connections, not only
healing I think the Jewishcommunity has got some healing
to do as a result of all thistrauma.
But I also think part of thatis reaching out and rebuilding
(42:28):
and looking outside of communityto others and rebuilding that
faith in Australia and buildingthose dialogues and connections.
And you know that's not easy.
You know, in fact it's probablythe hardest form of work.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
This is a question I'm not sure that you feel
comfortable in responding to, oreven if you can, I'm interested
as someone who looks at boththe extreme left, the extreme
right and also at sort offanatical jihadist elements in
Australia.
Among those groups, whichshould we be most concerned
(43:04):
about with regard to violenceand attacks against the
Australian Jewish community?
Speaker 3 (43:10):
Yeah, good question.
You've brought me back to thepoint I didn't really address
sufficiently around the extremeleft and so on earlier as well,
because young men and women areattracted to that space.
But we've seen them adopt thisincreasingly aggressive mindset
as well, and we're seeing newconnections between, for example
, the Lafayette and the left andso on.
(43:33):
So there's a lot of complexityIn terms of who's most dangerous
, I think you know.
I don't want to necessarily sithere and apportion, you know,
layers to different communitiesand groups.
I think the extreme right have apathological hatred of the
Jewish community, and alwayswill.
I think extreme Salafis have apathological hatred of Jews, and
(43:53):
always will.
I think Christian nationaliststhere is an element amongst
Pentecostal community and so on.
They might be pro-Israel, butthey also blame the Jews for
murdering Jesus.
As they see it, there's ananti-Semitism there.
There's an anti-Semitismembedded in extreme left
discourse.
They would say, no, we're justanti-Zionists and they conflate
(44:15):
the issues, but at its heartthere's an anti-Zionists and
they conflate the issues, but atits heart there's an
anti-Semitism in terms ofviolent potential.
I think you've got to just lookto recent history and precedent
.
I think you're talking about,on the one hand, the Salafi
Jihadists and you're talkingabout the extreme right.
I think there's a that's wherethe potential for violence.
We don't want to discount otherpotentials, but I think you've
only got to look at what's goingon internationally to really
(44:36):
understand that.
But we have to understand thatamongst these anti-Semitic
groups and the way that theyshare this not only anti-Jewish
but anti-Israel sort ofworldview and perspective,
there's going to be newformations, new manifestations
emerging in anti-Semitism thatwe haven't even yet contemplated
.
Sovereign citizen movements aredeeply anti-Semitic and we're
(44:56):
seeing that play out.
So dangers come from a wave ofpotentials.
I think you're lucky that you'vegot the community security
group in the Jewish communitywho do an incredible job sort of
monitoring it and keeping aneye on it.
But I do think beyond thesecurity element we have to look
at the wider issues of thepolitics of it.
How do you get this toned downat a wider level?
(45:18):
And I think you've got to getthe economy back on track
because people aren't as angryand aren't looking to blame
people when things are workingfor them.
That's how you take the heatout of potential mass
anti-Semitism.
I don't want to sort of waffle,but I do want to point out also
that recent research that Iconducted looked at whether or
(45:40):
not the Australian populationbelieved that antisemitism had
increased, and two thirds of theAustralian population were
supportive of the notion thatantisemitism has increased.
To point out that the vastmajority of Australians opposed
anti-Semitism, you know, pro theJewish community being here and
thriving and existing and beingsafe.
(46:02):
I think there's a deepsuspicion of extremism in
Australian culture.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
So I think it's important to look at the
positives as well as thenegatives, and Josh I would add
to that, and I'm not sure whatyour take on this is, but I
think the data does indicatethat the majority of Australians
don't take a firm view aboutthe conflict between Israelis
and Palestinians and don't wantto see the conflict brought over
(46:32):
to these shores and look at theconflict as something that is
very complex, and they preferusually, when asked in surveys
and polls, they prefer to stayneutral as prefer not to express
a support for one side or theother.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
Yeah, and I think it's easy in echo chambers like
institutions can be, and livingin the sort of inner confines of
Melbourne and so on can be, andliving in the sort of inner
confines of Melbourne and so on,to only hear one side.
But I do think the vastmajority of people are generally
suspicious of extremism and anidea across the board and want
to stay out of it and don'tbelieve that foreign conflicts
should be brought to our shoresand play out here the way they
(47:09):
have.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
So, josh, my final question for you today is how
can my single hetero girliesavoid swiping right on someone
who may have Salafi, jihadist,extreme right, violent,
misogynist tendencies?
Can you describe some maybe notso red flags?
Speaker 3 (47:29):
Yes, some really good points.
Anyone who's going to be a bitcareful here.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
You were going to say anyone who's holding a fish and
a knife, no, I mean, yeah, Imean I like fishing myself, but
I wouldn't use that.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
I never had to worry.
I'm married for a long time,but I think there are some key
indicators.
I mean and I'll get in troublefor this but anyone who's
following Joe Rogan, anyone whostarts talking about men's
rights or men's wellness andhealth because it used to be
that you could have aconversation about men's health
(48:04):
and have a serious conversationabout what it takes to find some
balance, look after yourselfbut now it's turned into this
men's right advocacy.
Many of these groups haveturned into.
Men are being poorly done by,mistreated.
Now we need to reclaim our truesense of masculinity.
There's a lot of garbage outthere, so there are certain
(48:25):
things that sort of.
Bring them together.
Preoccupation with UFC, joeRogan, what do they call it?
The bro-sphere or bro-culture.
Speaker 1 (48:34):
So if they have a photo holding Jordan Peterson's
12 rules for life, is that a redflag?
Speaker 3 (48:41):
I'd be running, you couldn't stop me.
Anything in that space.
Because again it comes back towhat is the ideal man?
There is no one idealconception and on the one hand
you do want a partner who'sgoing to think and challenge and
engage, but there is a certainsubculture out there that
(49:02):
emphasizes male victimhood andemphasizes reclaiming
masculinity and emphasizesreclaiming traditional roles and
, deeply embedded in that, acertain worldviews of the way
the world should be and the waythat men and women should act,
and that certainly isn'tsupportive of any woman who's
independent, working andreasonably successful in life.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Okay, thank you for answering that.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
Well, Josh, this has been a fascinating conversation.
Thanks for really distillingsome very complex phenomena down
for us.
Really interesting stuff.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
Some great questions.
Thanks for your time.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
That was Dr Josh Roos , associate Professor of
Politics at the Alfred DeakinInstitute for Citizenship and
Globalisation at DeakinUniversity, and that is it for
another week.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
You've been listening to.
A Shame to Admit with me, tammySussman and executive director
of TJI, dr Dashiell Lawrence.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King
and theme music by Donovan Jenks.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
If you like the podcast, leave a positive review
, tell your people or encourageyour third cousin's cousin to
advertise on the show.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
You can tell us what you're ashamed to admit via the
contact form on the JewishIndependent website or by
emailing ashamed atthejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
As always.
Thank you so much for yoursupport and look out for us next
week.
Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in
Australia, the Middle East andthe world at large?
But a little bit ashamed thatyou're barely keeping up to date
.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Well, you've come to the right place.
I'm Dash Lawrence and in thispodcast series, your dazed and
confused third cousin, TammySussman, and I call on experts
and each other to address allthe ignorant questions you might
be too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Join us as we have a go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Welcome to the third season of the Jewish Independent
podcast.
A shame to admit.
Hello everyone, happy 2025.
Not sure if I can still saythat it's February.
(01:00):
I'm Dash Lawrence, executiveDirector here at the Jewish
Independent.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
And I'm Tammy.
It's a miracle I haven't uppedmy meds, Sussman.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
You've just managed to get your eldest into school.
You're living through a Sydneyheat wave.
You're just barely keeping up.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
And, on top of all of that, what used to be just
casual racism has now becomeovert racism in Sydney,
australia, for our internationallisteners or those in Australia
perhaps being served differentnews on their algorithm.
We've been experiencing a waveof anti-Semitic attacks against
(01:47):
Jewish institutions, synagogues,childcare centres, even
individuals, across the country,but particularly in Sydney, and
this has led to a lot of thepeople in my circles people in
(02:07):
my circles, specifically theJewish people having some
serious conversations aboutwhether or not it's safe for us
to stay in Australia.
Dash.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Wow Okay, how serious are these conversations?
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I thought they were joking, but they're quite
serious, and a little squiz onthe Facebook group Jews of
Sydney was really enlighteningfor me.
I'm going to read you a postthat someone wrote.
They wrote in light of therecent anti-Semitic events in
Sydney, I've been wondering hasanyone in our community thought
(02:42):
more seriously about makingAliyah and moving to Israel?
With the rise in antisemitismglobally, we are re-evaluating
where we feel safest and most athome.
So there are a few responses.
One person said I grew up inIsrael and moved here nine years
ago.
The rise in anti-Semitism isextremely disturbing and
(03:05):
concerning.
However, I am not running tothe bomb shelter multiple times
a day and people in Sydneyaren't getting kidnapped from
their beds to Gaza.
My daughter won't be forced toserve in the military and I can
only hope she will never learnthe fear of living through war
and intifada.
Another person said we madeAliyah six years ago and I feel
(03:26):
so very blessed to live inIsrael.
I'm very happy not to be inAustralia and facing the rising
tide of antisemitism.
All roads in this chat wereleading to Israel.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
And.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
I thought that's pretty far away, Like that's a
big leap.
I was thinking hypothetically,if I had to move with my family
somewhere, I mean I would choosemaybe New Zealand because it's
pretty close and they don't haveany scary spiders there.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I'm pretty sure the Jewish community in New Zealand
would have a few things to sayabout how comfortable or safe
Jews in New Zealand feel as well.
Yeah, they probably do so.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I went to chat GPT.
I went to my rabbi.
This is what I asked what arethe safest countries for Jewish
people to live in in 2025?
What do you think chat GPT saidwas the safest country for jews
to live in in 2025?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
according to rabbi chat gpt.
We know that chat gpt is alittle bit behind on the news,
so is it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm prettysure it's not going to give you
the most up-to-date takes, soanything that's happened in the
last few months could be wrongabout this.
(04:49):
It's not going to be across.
Okay, so you might havepreviously had said Greenland,
but that's apparently that's noteven safe anymore.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Really what, only in the past few months?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Well, insofar as Donald Trump's now saying that
he's seriously consideringtaking it over for the United
States, look what would ChatGPTsay?
I don't know, tell me, tammy.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
No.
What do you think is number onesafest country for Jewish
people?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
ChatGPT moves in very mysterious ways.
It's possible that it wouldhave actually come back with
Israel.
It did yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
It said.
The pros are that it's a Jewishmajority state, strong legal
protections and Jewish cultureis central.
The cons security risks due toregional conflicts and terrorism
threats.
Okay, number two.
What do you reckon?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
United States.
Okay, Number two.
What do you reckon?
United States?
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Yep Pros large and diverse Jewish community.
Legal protection, strongadvocacy groups.
Cons rising antisemitism insome areas, including violent
attacks and campus tensions.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Number three I feel like this is now potentially in
order of Jewish population size.
I think the next on the listwould be Canada.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, government pros government policies against
hate crimes.
Active Jewish communities inToronto, montreal and Vancouver
Cons some increase inanti-Semitic incidents, though
still lower than in the US.
But I just have to say I thinkthat Australians would really
struggle in Canada because ofthe weather.
(06:32):
We're not used to such coldwinters so I don't think that we
would survive there.
Based on that, I think that wewould find the super cold
winters there antisemitic.
I think that we would find thesuper cold winters there.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Anti-semitic, we would love the bagels, though
they do a very particular typeof bagel in Montreal.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
They do, but I think we would get depressed from
vitamin D deficiency and wewouldn't even have the co-op to
get out to buy the bagels.
I think that's what wouldhappen.
No, your theory is wrong.
If you're going by populationsize, number four was Australia,
followed by the United Kingdom.
At number six was Germany.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
The pros strong legal measures against antisemitism
and government actively combatshate speech.
The cons resurgence offar-right extremism in some
areas, absolutely thealternative for Deutschland.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
the AfD is 100% on the march and would be quite
possibly a coalition partner inthe next German government, and
they are no friends of theJewish community.
So yeah, I would beg to differ.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
I also think that Sydney Jews would struggle in
Germany because they're sopro-public transport and we're
not used to that, so I thinkwe'd feel really unstable there.
Number seven is Portugal.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
This surprised me.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Oh okay, all right, that is very unusual Low
anti-Semitic incidents,welcoming policies and a growing
Jewish community.
Number eight will surprise you,dash.
What do you reckon number eightis?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Like, given that we're now scraping the bottom of
the barrel with places likePortugal, I'm going to throw
something really odd out thereand say Singapore.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
No.
Oh okay, united Arab Emirates.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Oh God, this is ridiculous.
Tammy, you have to stop turningto ChatGPT for your research.
That's just-.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Listen to what ChatGPT said.
It said it's surprisingly safedue to the Abraham Accords and a
growing Jewish presence inDubai.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yes, and we know what happened to that growing Jewish
presence.
There was a Chabad rabbi thatwas killed only a few months ago
.
So no, it is not a safe place.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Okay.
So having ruled out Canadabecause of the weather, I
thought, well, maybe the UnitedStates is an option.
But then I remembered well, theUnited States isn't a great
place to be right now if you'rea woman, right.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Vis-a-vis reproductive rights.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Yeah, yeah.
So I asked Rabbi Chach EBT topcountries for both Jewish people
and women.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Right.
Much more focused question asof 2025,.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
What do you think was number one country, as both a
Jew and a woman?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
This is getting very niche now, tammy, I can't guess?
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Tell me.
Okay.
Number one was Canada, but whatI should have said was top
countries for both Sydney-bornJewish people and women.
So we've cut Canada out becauseof the cold weather.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
So next on the list is actually Australia.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Because it has an active Jewish community,
especially in Sydney andMelbourne.
Antisemitism exists, but it'srelatively low.
So you've now told me that thisis a few months behind.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
So that makes sense now that it's put it there, yeah
.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
But women's safety.
They have a high quality oflife, strong legal protections,
good healthcare and economicopportunities.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
You would beg to differ.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Some would beg to differ.
Number three is Portugal.
It has very low antisemiticincidents.
Just a reminder welcomingpolicies and some Sephardic,
jewish history.
It's just thrown in there.
So I think, if you're aSephardi Jewish woman living in
Sydney, this is the place foryou.
(10:44):
It has low crime rates in termsof women's safety, apparently,
and progressive gender equalitylaws.
I think Dash, I'm going tostart a movement.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
A movement of Sydney Jews to Portugal, sydney Jewish
women to Portugal.
Yeah, also has very liberalapproaches to the use of
recreational drugs.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Boomtown.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
If you are looking for a place to be a Jewish woman
and you love your party drugs,that is the place for you to go.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
At this year's Seder I'm going to be saying next year
in Portugal.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Next year in Lisbon.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Girlies.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Doesn't have to be just Lisbon.
Porto is also a beautiful city.
Don't know how many Jewishpeople there are in Porto, but-.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Well, I'll tell you how many there will be next year
.
Yeah, 20,000.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Tammy, yet again, I sense that this is a way for you
to manage and cope with theheaviness of this time.
You know me too well, but we doneed to get back to our focus
of today's show.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
We began this show by acknowledging the recent wave
of attacks against Jewish peoplein Australia of late and, as
your dazed and confused thirdcousin, dear listener, I had
some questions that I brought toDash.
I wanted to know if he thoughtthese incidents were organized
(12:16):
by criminal gangs or are theythe result of copycat attacks by
just a handful of individuals?
Copycat attacks by just ahandful of individuals, and I
was really curious to know whathe thought the motivations of
these attackers were.
And at the time of recording wedon't have answers to this one.
Dash, even though you're supersmart, you humbly told me that
(12:41):
you don't have all the answersto those questions, but you did
find someone who could shed somelight on the rise of violent
extremism in Australia and inthe West more broadly.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
I did, tammy.
Dr Josh Roos is a politicalsociologist and associate
professor of politics at theAlfred Deakin Institute for
Citizenship and Globalization atDeakin University.
Josh is an internationallyrecognized authority on the role
of masculinities and ideologiesin violent extremism and
(13:20):
terrorism.
He's also an expert on theattraction of men to Salafi
jihadist movements, extremeright and violent misogynistic
and anti-democratic movementsand new forms of violent
extremist ideologies ascendantaround the world.
Josh is one of a small group ofacademics who have been willing
(13:42):
to speak out on attacksdirected at Jewish communities
in Australia and around theworld since October 7th, and we
thought what better person toget on the show to talk about
this really concerning wave ofviolence and attacks that we've
seen over the summer here inAustralia.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
We need to start by thanking you, Josh, for joining
us on A Shame to Admit.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Thank you for having me, Josh.
Can you help our listenersunderstand a little bit about
the focus of your research?
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Yeah, sure, I do a lot of research around the ugly
things in society.
I look at political andreligious violence, violent
extremism, terrorism, and I lookacross the spectrum.
So I look at the far right.
I look at different forms ofreligious extremism, in
particular Salafi jihadism, butalso Christian nationalism.
I look at the extreme left,Basically anywhere that there's
(14:56):
individuals or groups that holdideological perspectives that
are anti-democratic but alsoviolent and that seek to harm
others.
I do funded research projectsinto them and do a fair bit of
public commentary around theseissues too.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Investigations are continuing and, as of yet, state
and federal police have notindicated a motivation.
They've been very tight-lippedabout the wave of attacks and
violence that we've seen,particularly in Sydney, in the
past few months.
I'm wondering how you've beenlooking at these attacks and
whether you have already beendeveloping a hypothesis in your
(15:38):
mind.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Yeah, well, I think to look at these attacks, we've
got to go a little bit back intime and provide some context,
and when I say I look atdifferent forms of political and
religious extremism, amongstthe very worst of those is
anti-Semitism, historicallyspeaking, but also, whenever it
pops up, it's effectively thecanary in the coal mine for a
much deeper and more dangeroustime, and I think, unfortunately
(16:02):
, that's where we find ourselvesat the moment.
Anti-semitism has been on theincrease in Australia for about
a decade.
There's some amazing peopleJulie Nathan and others who
captured that data for at leasta couple of decades and
published it, and around 2014-15it was on the uptick.
It went up during COVID, whenwe saw a lot of conspiratorial
(16:22):
movements pop back up alongsidethe extreme right, and behind
every good conspiracy theory isan anti-semitic trope where it's
jews pulling the strings,holding all the power and
basically exploiting the poorwhite man is effectively the
narrative.
Now that's, um, you know, takena bit of hold, particularly
(16:43):
online amongst some of theseanti-government groups and
extremist groups.
It's always been there inelements of various communities,
but what we've seenparticularly post-October 7, was
a dramatic escalation inanti-Semitism.
Now, that's paradoxical becauseI would have thought and it
(17:03):
shocked me because in theaftermath of October 7, where
Jews were clearly targeted forgenocidal violence, you would
have thought there would havebeen a sympathy directed towards
Jewish communities and a formof solidarity extended to them,
but amongst many, it wasconflated with anti-Israel
activism on the left.
(17:24):
Unfortunately, what we saw onOctober 9 on the steps of the
Sydney Opera House, where, again, young men from the extreme
fringes of the Muslim communityand they are known as Salafis
and Salafi jihadists weregathered around, screaming fuck
the Jews and gas the Jews, andso, to that extent, that was a
really important moment, becausefrom there it's spiral.
(17:47):
We already knew that theextreme right were active, going
into Jewish areas andattempting to intimidate and
threaten, but what we saw thenwas this convergence of extreme
left, extreme right, fringeelements of the Muslim community
, and from there we saw majorpolitical parties jump on board.
We saw an entire onlinecampaign directed towards Jewish
(18:10):
communities, in particular,those who believe that Israel
has a right to exist.
So this particular moment, whenwe look at these attacks as
they're occurring in Sydney inparticular, but also more
recently in Melbourne we have tounderstand that this is part of
a broader series and set ofdevelopments.
Now what we're seeing currentlyappears, at least based on very
(18:34):
recent reporting, to be peoplewho don't fit the profile of the
traditional anti-Semite.
We're looking at people whoaren't particularly politically
active, apparently don't appearto be advocates or activists.
We see people who appear toeffectively be tools carrying
out attacks on behalf of others,allowing them to keep at arm's
(18:54):
length.
Now that's a new development.
It's not something I've got myhead around and I am reliant on
the media and reporting for someof this, but it's a dangerous
new development because itindicates that there's money and
there's funding behind elementsof this as well, and there's
criminal elements involved, andwe know that criminal elements
are always going to be open toextreme violence.
(19:16):
So if you understand recentdevelopments in the context of
that broader set of developments, it's a dangerous time.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
I have a question at this point.
I'm ashamed to admit I've neverheard the term Salafi jihadism.
I've heard jihadism, but Ihaven't heard Salafi jihadism.
What is it?
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Yeah.
So a lot of my research hasworked on and with Muslim
communities and I've met somegreat, amazing people who are
contributing to Australia andhave no interest in extremism in
any way, shape or form.
However, just like the extremefringe of Christianity and I had
a grandfather who was a prettyfundamentalist Christian
minister, he used to Bible bashme and so on the extreme fringe
(20:00):
of most religions, there's ahard line, a conservative
element, and in the case ofIslam they're known as Salafis.
Now, it's a puritanical form ofIslam.
It's talking about the returnto the time of the prophet and
seeking to live like the prophetdid, based on the practices of
the prophet and his companions.
So there's rules about how longyou can grow your beard, how
(20:24):
you live your life, what you canand can't do, and so on.
By itself, that's aconservative form of Islam and
it's reasonably harmless.
It's much like any other formof conservative religion.
But you start to then moveacross the spectrum into
political Salafism.
So we see groups like Hizbut-Tahrir emerge who advocate
for a caliphate, advocate forviolence, but very subtly, not
(20:50):
in a way that allows them to beframed as supporting terrorism,
but they'll talk in very broadterms.
So that's political Salafismand it's a form of activism.
And again, within a democracy,arguably there's space for that
to occur.
But then you talk about Salafijihadism.
Now, within Islam, jihad is.
There's two forms of jihad,effectively.
(21:11):
There's the greater jihad,which is a spiritual struggle
against the nafs and againsttemptation, but then there's
jihad, as in holy war, againstthose who are slighting Muslims
or the non-believers.
Now, salafi jihadists prettymuch ignore the greater struggle
, the spiritual struggle to bebetter Muslims.
Their focus is very much in thehere and now and the fight and
(21:33):
the warrior status that thatbestows upon them.
And you'll find that many Salafijihadists are angry young men
who are drawn to the narrativeof a warrior, drawn to the
narrative of fighting andbelonging to something bigger
than themselves.
That offers them a form ofsolidarity.
It's highly multicultural.
It doesn't matter where you'refrom as long as you're part of
(21:55):
that sort of group.
Now, many of them have beenevicted from mainstream mosques
or even conservative Salafimosques.
They're at the extreme fringeof the Muslim communities.
However, in any community ofthe size of the Australian
Muslim community, there's goingto still be a number, and so in
that context, we understand thatwe're looking at a very small
element, but a very vocal, veryangry element of Muslim
(22:18):
communities there.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
So, Josh, when you look at these attacks both the
attacks here in Melbourne,thinking of the Adas Israel
firebombing and the graffiti andfirebombing of the childcare
centre and several other attacksin Sydney in recent months Do
(22:40):
you see anything about thoseattacks that have the hallmarks
of Salafi jihadism, or is thispotentially?
I mean, you mentioned beforethat the people that have been
arrested in relation to some ofthese attacks are career
criminals and not those that youtypically attach to political
(23:02):
motivations.
So would we expect Salafijihadists to be engaging with
violence through intermediaries,or does this perhaps indicate
some other form of politicalviolence?
Speaker 3 (23:18):
That's a really excellent question and it's not
easy to answer without somespeculation.
So I think the caveat toanything I say here is
speculation and I prefer tospeak purely based on facts as a
scholar.
But I will elaborate to anextent.
What we have is a communitythat are angry about what's
going on in Gaza.
Generally speaking, muslimcommunities feel that deeply,
(23:41):
much as Jewish communities herefeel that deeply.
There's a polarisation on bothends and a binary has emerged.
But what we see with theseextreme fringes in particular is
that many of the criminalelements and gangs have a Middle
Eastern component, or some ofthem have a Middle Eastern
component, particularly inSydney, and there's an
intersection between some ofthose actors and Salafi
(24:02):
jihadists who are in prison.
Often they intersect with eachother or engage with each other
in prisons, and so there ispotentially an element there
where there could be some formof interaction between criminal
gangs and Salafi jihadists, butwe don't know enough, and that's
what I've got to say clearly.
We don't know whether or notthey're influencing one another,
(24:24):
whether or not they're actingthrough these gangs and their
resources to carry out theseattacks.
That's one possible component.
Another is that we've seen inEurope, we've seen the Iranian
government active in targetingJewish embassies.
And there's concern at leastsome speculation there about the
role of the Iranian governmentin Amsterdam with the Israeli
(24:48):
football team and the riots thattargeted Jewish supporters
there and the rights thattargeted Jewish supporters there
.
But unfortunately, for better orworse, we just don't know
enough at this point.
Intelligence agencies keepthese cards close to their chest
, for good reason, because theyneed to understand what's going
on and not necessarily alertindividuals and groups that
they're being monitored.
(25:08):
So to this extent we're kind ofstuck.
It's thinking about who mightbe behind it.
It is certainly an unusualdevelopment but beyond
speculation based on some verybasic and broad set of facts, we
don't know enough.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
As strange as this may seem, josh, and it's
certainly not an analysis that Itake, but I want to put it to
you because I'm interested inyour response there are some who
look at these attacks, thesewave of anti-Semitism we've seen
this summer, as connected toand part of a broader wave of
(25:43):
violence directed not just atJews but also at Arabs and
anti-Palestinian racism inAustralia and part of a wave of
these people would say, ofIslamophobia.
I'm interested in what you makeof that analysis.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Another on-point, excellent question.
It's hard to unpack,particularly for the layperson,
as to what's going on.
Look, on the one hand, any formof racism and discrimination is
terrible.
Australia is a multiculturalcountry with all the baggage
that that carries, but in worldterms, an incredibly successful
country that has brought peoplein from around the world.
(26:25):
However, I don't think that atthis particular point in time,
you can necessarily talk aboutanti-Semitism and anti-Muslim
racism in the same vein.
I think there is a stronghistory of anti-Muslim racism,
particularly after the 9-11attacks, where Muslim
communities felt themselves tobe targeted and certainly
received the full weight of thelaw and surveillance and media
(26:48):
condemnation and so on for aprolonged period of time.
But I think we've actuallymoved a little bit beyond that.
I wouldn't put anti-Semitism inthe current moment in that same
boat.
Right now, I think, whilstanti-Muslim racism continues and
bigots are going to be bigotsand attack people they don't
like of all persuasions, I thinkanti-Semitism to me at this
particular moment, given itsincrease, its rapid escalation
(27:12):
and extreme vitriol and itsescalation to violence in the
way that it has to me, it's gotto be understood as a different
issue and the issue at thisparticular moment.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Josh, you mentioned that there are a lot of young,
isolated men who are making upquite a big number of these
extremists and the peoplecarrying out these attacks, and
your research pays particularattention to the intersection
between masculinity andextremism.
(27:44):
So are you able to help me andour listeners understand the
relationship between misogyny ortoxic masculinity, say, and
expressing violence and hatredtowards Jewish people?
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Yeah, great question.
So what we see is across thespectrum of extremist actors
could be religious, political.
They're primarily made up ofyoung men.
And they're primarily made upof young men, irrespective of
their education or theirsocioeconomic class, who don't
feel themselves to be on anupward social trajectory.
(28:19):
And I use trajectory as animportant point, because if you
feel like you're going well inlife, you're not going to go and
turn to extremist narrativesthat offer you something else.
So it doesn't matter whereyou're from.
You might be wealthy and stillfeel like you're going down on
this horrible path.
You could be quite welleducated, but at the end of the
day, you feel like you're goingnowhere, you're stagnant, you're
(28:41):
going backwards and you resentthat.
You feel a sense of shame andhumiliation.
These are deep emotions thatlead to anger, and anger is the
driving force.
Now, anger is not always a badthing.
Anger can be righteous andachieve positive social change
and civil rights, but what wesee is an anger that is focused
on the other, blaming someoneelse for their particular lot in
(29:06):
life, and Jews have always,throughout history, formed the
basis for someone to resent.
Jewish communities havetraditionally been successful
economically, culturally andreally batted above and beyond
their weight in terms ofpopulation size, and so for
groups who are looking todemonise others and looking to
(29:28):
find someone to blame for theirparticular location, it's the
perfect scapegoat.
In many respects, jewishcommunities are small.
They're often quite insular,geographically centred and, to
that extent, quite easy totarget.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
That's a really different answer to what I
thought you were going to say.
I thought maybe you were goingto say because they consider
women to be less than, and theyalso consider the Jew to be less
than or subhuman, and thereforethat's how they intersect.
So that's quite a surprisinganswer.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Josh, as a sociologist, how do you explain
this rise of all forms ofpolitical extremism that young,
angry men seem to be attractedto, be it from the extreme left
or the extreme right?
Speaker 3 (30:17):
I'll start at the front and work back.
People get angry when they feellike they've had respect
withheld from them andrecognition withheld from them,
and that leads, as I said, toemotions like shame, humiliation
.
If you've ever beendisrespected, you feel that
deeply, but for days the oddoccasion it happens to me I'm
dwelling on it weeks later it's,you know, angry about it.
Same, yeah.
(30:38):
And so take that but apply itacross the lifespan of feeling
that way and then take it acrossa group of people who might
have shared similar experiencesand you start to see how these
groups form and the basis oftheir talk.
You could also step back andplace this in context of what's
gone on really over the last 80to 100 years.
(30:58):
Well, let's start with thepost-World War II economy, which
was, on the one hand, out ofthe UK, centered on welfare
support for the working man itwas always the men in particular
and a sort of role for biggovernment you know the National
Health Service and that spreadacross the Commonwealth
countries, in, in particular,less influential in the us, but
it was about developing agovernment that sort of looked
(31:20):
after its people, that welfaresort of state, but continental
scholars, and actually I shouldsay it formed out of this
christian socialist thing inoxford, cambridge, lse.
But these continentalphilosophers identified big
government with totalitarianismand so some were LSE and others
and they left and they went tothe Chicago school and so at the
University of Chicago we sawthe birth of free market
(31:43):
economics.
And in free market economicsgovernment's got to get out of
the way.
Any impediment to the freeoperation of the market gets out
of the way.
There's no space for tradeunions, which have traditionally
offered a form of solidarityfor working people.
There's no space for church andreligion, which offers a form
of status for the man as thehead of the household but also
(32:03):
community, and church attendancewas around the 50% mark in most
Western countries in the 70s.
It's now about 10%.
Trade union membership wasabout 50% to 60%, in some places
down to about 10%.
So there's no space anymore forsolidarity and belonging and
feeling like you belong tosomething bigger than yourself.
(32:24):
Community is dead.
I can't tell you how manyneighbours I would know by name.
We're very focused on theindividual and with that came
cuts to the economy, cuts totraditional male roles.
As the economy has evolved andbecome more technologically
sophisticated, we've gone fromthe blue-collar miner, sort of
hero of the working class, tothe service economy, which
(32:46):
favours younger women.
We've moved into the corporateworld, where women have
hard-fought protections againstdiscrimination, sexual
discrimination, harassment,maternity leave.
All of a sudden, that idea of ajob for life for the male,
protections againstdiscrimination, sexual
discrimination, harassment,maternity leave and all of a
sudden that idea of a job forlife for the male, the single
breadwinner, no longer exists.
(33:07):
You now need two incomes to buya home, and men are competing
against incredibly well-educated, articulate women for the same
jobs.
And so there's this sense ofnostalgia for this long-lost
past where men could be men andwere celebrated and you only
need to have a household.
You've only got to go ontothese sites to look at the way
they idealize the past.
And so there's this you know,call for return to that, and
(33:27):
then you see them while thenazis, for example, is there
stuff.
I think I've talked aboutkitchen, church children.
That was a German translation,but that resonates with the here
and now.
For young men you can't afforda home who aren't necessarily
getting married, because womentraditionally marry at level or
up.
Men tend to marry at level orsocioeconomically lower, and so
(33:52):
women are less likely to marrythem, and so, for the first time
in the US, there are now moresingle men than there are women,
and so we're seeing thisphenomenon occur, where the
feminisation of work and society, particularly due to technology
, which eradicates physicaldifferences, creates this space
for this deep resentment.
And where are people goingOnline?
They're going online to findthose solidarities and
(34:13):
belongings and communities.
They're forming these oftenhateful groups online that
radicalise each other and inciteand support each other and
share the same views.
So violent misogyny, extremeright, extreme religious
organisations and groups arefinding solidarities at a
transnational level.
Now they're speaking to eachother across national borders,
(34:36):
across state borders, andthey're building these online
communities that operate in thehere and now, where someone
might not know the name of theirneighbour, but they know that
their best friends are on theother side of the world.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
As you mentioned, josh, social media, the online
world, gives places and spacesfor these people to propagate
their ideas and to connect andto find belonging, to spread
their hate, spread their reallyodious views.
In the last 48 hours, thesocial media platform X has
(35:10):
suspended the accounts ofNational Socialist Network
leaders, Thomas Sewell and BlairCottrell, two men who have very
much had Jews in their sightsin recent years.
Can you talk about the tensionin liberal democracies like ours
here in Australia between, onthe one hand, protecting free
(35:32):
speech and, on the other, freespeech and, on the other,
preventing the spread of thesekinds of hate-filled ideas that
ultimately do, as you've beensaying, contribute to a context
in which violence against Jewishpeople is seen and maybe even
(35:53):
one day tolerated?
Speaker 3 (35:56):
Yeah, I think we start by distinguishing
extremism from hate, anddemocracy requires some extreme
ideas across the politicalspectrum.
It requires people to voicethose ideas and for them to be
debated, and in some cases,extreme ideas become mainstream.
So I'll go back again to thecivil rights movement, who were
(36:17):
marginal in the 60s and theirideas are now embedded in our
laws.
It was considered extreme tobelieve in gay rights once upon
a time, so you do need peoplewho push the envelope and you
don't always have to agree wherethey come from.
That's an inherent component ofdemocracy.
But free speech was neverinscribed in the
Australianralian constitution.
We are not americans where it'sheld up on this platform, as
(36:41):
you know beyond reproach.
I think where we have to draw aline is between extreme ideas
that can be debated and hate,and hate is inherently linked to
violence.
And you can you can sayhate-filled uh things online or
face to face that have implicitin them a violence.
And you talk about, talk aboutmass deportations.
(37:02):
Well, you're talking aboutdeath.
You're talking aboutdestruction, you're talking
about the start of genocide.
So when the extreme right talkabout that, well, that's at the
heart of what they're talkingabout, this ideal picture of how
it was once in Germany in the1930s and 40s.
That's their reference point.
So you've got to call a spade aspade and for me it's quite
(37:23):
simple.
I think there should be a zerotolerance threshold for hate,
online or in person.
People tend to get away withthis online because they hide
behind anonymity.
They hide behind masks when theyshow up at these rallies, and
there's a reason they're hidingbehind that.
Because they hide behindanonymity, they hide behind
masks when they show up at theserallies, and there's a reason
they're hiding behind thatbecause they know that if they
put their face to that and theirname to that, they're
unemployable and society wouldreject them and ostracise them.
(37:46):
And I think you know, listeningto the parliamentary debates
over the last two days aroundthe new laws that are coming in,
around mandatory sentences andso on and I'm yet to get my head
around it, so I won't pass anopinion but I think we're at a
point now where you've gotextreme actors in society trying
to foment hate violence and ina democracy, the only thing you
(38:10):
can do is stamp it out.
I think if you look at historicprecinct, if it had been
stamped out earlier withvigorous action, criminalisation
and so on, I don't think wewould have seen some of the
events that we've seenthroughout history.
So you know, does that lead toan authoritarian state?
Well, I don't believe so, but Ithink we do need to draw a line
(38:32):
at hate and at violence.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Was that encouraging to see that X had suspended
those accounts?
Because we know that thingshave changed a hell of a lot
since Elon Musk took ownershipof X and there's been a lot of
concern that this is nowincreasingly a place home to
some pretty odious and hatefulactors and that that's gone
(39:02):
unchecked.
So are you encouraged?
Speaker 3 (39:05):
by this.
I think it's quite surprisingthat it played out the way it
did.
I think what we saw was anincreasing level of agility, I
suppose by the government,because it struggled to get X to
take them seriously and to act.
But you know, first of all,they've taken down Terragram and
they're talking about financialsanctions against online actors
.
I mean, that's prettyunprecedented.
(39:27):
And now, more recently, doolCottrell, more recently, joel
Davis and Ezeal have all hadtheir accounts taken down and
now, using these accounts totarget, harass people, make
veiled threats, intimidate.
You know, myself included,they've had a go at me and you
know it's pathetic.
But it's also something youignore at your own peril.
(39:51):
You know, and I think gettingthose accounts taken down in the
context of everything we'reseeing overseas and I think the
context of Musk and his recentbehaviour, and we're still
seeing, and I think the contextof musk and his recent behavior
and we're still seeing itgetting taken off x I think that
signals a serious breakthroughfor the government in regulating
online hate aside fromregulating online hate and
putting pressure on these socialmedia organisations to take
(40:17):
this seriously and suspend theseaccounts, and aside, obviously,
from empowering authorities,agencies, police and the like to
investigate and to prosecutethe offenders and those guilty
of anti-Semitic attacks, whatelse can be done to halt this
(40:38):
current wave of violence thatwe're seeing?
Yeah, look, unfortunately we arein a period of reaction where
we're scrambling to develop thelaws to respond to it smack it
on the head, so to speak.
You know that's not sustainableover the long term.
There's an enormous amount ofwork to be done, what is
traditionally considered thesoft edge of all this, but
(40:59):
that's actually the real hardwork.
It's the grind, it's buildingdialogue, it's building
connections again, because Ithink, generally speaking, all
communities in Australia,irrespective of where people's
heritage is and where they comefrom, have a vested interest in
a safe, prosperous, secureAustralia where people
(41:22):
demonstrate a modicum of respectto one another in public space,
might hold vastly differentviews but agree to abide by
Australian law and look afterour country and grow our country
, because we are incrediblylucky to live here.
And I think it comes down torebuilding dialogue across
different lines, rebuildingrelationships and also, you know
(41:44):
, we've seen a lot of politicalpoint scoring, a lot of public
statements, but at the end ofthe day, we've also seen, more
recently, some bipartisanshiprejecting this For better or
worse.
Irrespective of people'spolitical opinions, both major
parties have come together,irrespective of the politics of
it, to condemn it and to act andthe vote, I think, in
parliament today or thereaboutsshould demonstrate that.
(42:07):
So it's the hard work.
The real work is education,reaching the schools, reaching
and developing those connections, um, not only um healing I
think the jewish community's gotsome healing to do after as a
result of all this trauma.
Schools reaching and developingthose connections, not only
healing I think the Jewishcommunity has got some healing
to do as a result of all thistrauma.
But I also think part of thatis reaching out and rebuilding
(42:28):
and looking outside of communityto others and rebuilding that
faith in Australia and buildingthose dialogues and connections.
And you know that's not easy.
You know, in fact it's probablythe hardest form of work.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
This is a question I'm not sure that you feel
comfortable in responding to, oreven if you can, I'm interested
as someone who looks at boththe extreme left, the extreme
right and also at sort offanatical jihadist elements in
Australia.
Among those groups, whichshould we be most concerned
(43:04):
about with regard to violenceand attacks against the
Australian Jewish community?
Speaker 3 (43:10):
Yeah, good question.
You've brought me back to thepoint I didn't really address
sufficiently around the extremeleft and so on earlier as well,
because young men and women areattracted to that space.
But we've seen them adopt thisincreasingly aggressive mindset
as well, and we're seeing newconnections between, for example
, the Lafayette and the left andso on.
(43:33):
So there's a lot of complexityIn terms of who's most dangerous
, I think you know.
I don't want to necessarily sithere and apportion, you know,
layers to different communitiesand groups.
I think the extreme right have apathological hatred of the
Jewish community, and alwayswill.
I think extreme Salafis have apathological hatred of Jews, and
(43:53):
always will.
I think Christian nationaliststhere is an element amongst
Pentecostal community and so on.
They might be pro-Israel, butthey also blame the Jews for
murdering Jesus.
As they see it, there's ananti-Semitism there.
There's an anti-Semitismembedded in extreme left
discourse.
They would say, no, we're justanti-Zionists and they conflate
(44:15):
the issues, but at its heartthere's an anti-Zionists and
they conflate the issues, but atits heart there's an
anti-Semitism in terms ofviolent potential.
I think you've got to just lookto recent history and precedent
.
I think you're talking about,on the one hand, the Salafi
Jihadists and you're talkingabout the extreme right.
I think there's a that's wherethe potential for violence.
We don't want to discount otherpotentials, but I think you've
only got to look at what's goingon internationally to really
(44:36):
understand that.
But we have to understand thatamongst these anti-Semitic
groups and the way that theyshare this not only anti-Jewish
but anti-Israel sort ofworldview and perspective,
there's going to be newformations, new manifestations
emerging in anti-Semitism thatwe haven't even yet contemplated
.
Sovereign citizen movements aredeeply anti-Semitic and we're
(44:56):
seeing that play out.
So dangers come from a wave ofpotentials.
I think you're lucky that you'vegot the community security
group in the Jewish communitywho do an incredible job sort of
monitoring it and keeping aneye on it.
But I do think beyond thesecurity element we have to look
at the wider issues of thepolitics of it.
How do you get this toned downat a wider level?
(45:18):
And I think you've got to getthe economy back on track
because people aren't as angryand aren't looking to blame
people when things are workingfor them.
That's how you take the heatout of potential mass
anti-Semitism.
I don't want to sort of waffle,but I do want to point out also
that recent research that Iconducted looked at whether or
(45:40):
not the Australian populationbelieved that antisemitism had
increased, and two thirds of theAustralian population were
supportive of the notion thatantisemitism has increased.
To point out that the vastmajority of Australians opposed
anti-Semitism, you know, pro theJewish community being here and
thriving and existing and beingsafe.
(46:02):
I think there's a deepsuspicion of extremism in
Australian culture.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
So I think it's important to look at the
positives as well as thenegatives, and Josh I would add
to that, and I'm not sure whatyour take on this is, but I
think the data does indicatethat the majority of Australians
don't take a firm view aboutthe conflict between Israelis
and Palestinians and don't wantto see the conflict brought over
(46:32):
to these shores and look at theconflict as something that is
very complex, and they preferusually, when asked in surveys
and polls, they prefer to stayneutral as prefer not to express
a support for one side or theother.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
Yeah, and I think it's easy in echo chambers like
institutions can be, and livingin the sort of inner confines of
Melbourne and so on can be, andliving in the sort of inner
confines of Melbourne and so on,to only hear one side.
But I do think the vastmajority of people are generally
suspicious of extremism and anidea across the board and want
to stay out of it and don'tbelieve that foreign conflicts
should be brought to our shoresand play out here the way they
(47:09):
have.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
So, josh, my final question for you today is how
can my single hetero girliesavoid swiping right on someone
who may have Salafi, jihadist,extreme right, violent,
misogynist tendencies?
Can you describe some maybe notso red flags?
Speaker 3 (47:29):
Yes, some really good points.
Anyone who's going to be a bitcareful here.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
You were going to say anyone who's holding a fish and
a knife, no, I mean, yeah, Imean I like fishing myself, but
I wouldn't use that.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
I never had to worry.
I'm married for a long time,but I think there are some key
indicators.
I mean and I'll get in troublefor this but anyone who's
following Joe Rogan, anyone whostarts talking about men's
rights or men's wellness andhealth because it used to be
that you could have aconversation about men's health
(48:04):
and have a serious conversationabout what it takes to find some
balance, look after yourselfbut now it's turned into this
men's right advocacy.
Many of these groups haveturned into.
Men are being poorly done by,mistreated.
Now we need to reclaim our truesense of masculinity.
There's a lot of garbage outthere, so there are certain
(48:25):
things that sort of.
Bring them together.
Preoccupation with UFC, joeRogan, what do they call it?
The bro-sphere or bro-culture.
Speaker 1 (48:34):
So if they have a photo holding Jordan Peterson's
12 rules for life, is that a redflag?
Speaker 3 (48:41):
I'd be running, you couldn't stop me.
Anything in that space.
Because again it comes back towhat is the ideal man?
There is no one idealconception and on the one hand
you do want a partner who'sgoing to think and challenge and
engage, but there is a certainsubculture out there that
(49:02):
emphasizes male victimhood andemphasizes reclaiming
masculinity and emphasizesreclaiming traditional roles and
, deeply embedded in that, acertain worldviews of the way
the world should be and the waythat men and women should act,
and that certainly isn'tsupportive of any woman who's
independent, working andreasonably successful in life.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Okay, thank you for answering that.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
Well, Josh, this has been a fascinating conversation.
Thanks for really distillingsome very complex phenomena down
for us.
Really interesting stuff.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
Some great questions.
Thanks for your time.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
That was Dr Josh Roos , associate Professor of
Politics at the Alfred DeakinInstitute for Citizenship and
Globalisation at DeakinUniversity, and that is it for
another week.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
You've been listening to.
A Shame to Admit with me, tammySussman and executive director
of TJI, dr Dashiell Lawrence.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King
and theme music by Donovan Jenks.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
If you like the podcast, leave a positive review
, tell your people or encourageyour third cousin's cousin to
advertise on the show.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
You can tell us what you're ashamed to admit via the
contact form on the JewishIndependent website or by
emailing ashamed atthejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
As always.
Thank you so much for yoursupport and look out for us next
week.
Popular Podcasts
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Betrayal: Season 4
Karoline Borega married a man of honor – a respected Colorado Springs Police officer. She knew there would be sacrifices to accommodate her husband’s career. But she had no idea that he was using his badge to fool everyone. This season, we expose a man who swore two sacred oaths—one to his badge, one to his bride—and broke them both. We follow Karoline as she questions everything she thought she knew about her partner of over 20 years. And make sure to check out Seasons 1-3 of Betrayal, along with Betrayal Weekly Season 1.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.