February 17, 2025 • 41 mins
To celebrate the highly anticipated release of The Holy and The Broken, Tami and Dash talk to the author himself: TJI's Jerusalem Correspondent & Australia’s favourite peacebuilder Ittay Flescher. Plus Dash celebrates Tami's accidental foray into the shmatte business.
Articles relevant to this episode:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/ittay-flescher-the-greatest-obstacle-to-peace-is-dehumanisation
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in
Australia, the Middle East andthe world at large?
But a little bit ashamed thatyou're barely keeping up to date
.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Well, you've come to the right place.
I'm Dash Lawrence and, in thispodcast series, your overwhelmed
third cousin, tammy Sussman,and I call on experts and each
other to address all theignorant questions that you may
be too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Join us as we have a go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast.
Ashamed to Admit podcast.
A shame to admit.
Hello everyone, I'm Dash.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Lawrence, Executive Director here at the Jewish
Independent, and I'm futurefashion mogul Tammy Sussman.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Future fashion mogul Nice.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Have you heard the news?
Have you seen the Insta stories?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Well done.
I'm blown away by yourentrepreneurial spirit, tammy.
You're always looking for thenext thing that could
potentially generate you someextra income, or-.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
I wasn't looking for this, by the way.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
This was completely spontaneous.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Let me fill the listener in.
So we are approaching MardiGras, the festival celebrating
LGBTIQ plus Australians, and inhonour of that, tammy Sussman
put up not necessarily with anyseriousness a series of kind of
(01:51):
t-shirt ideas referencingAustralian Jews that are
well-known in the community.
And tell us what the messagewas on that shirt, tammy?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
The message said my Mardi Gras hall pass is and I
just put different names ofcommunity members who have
either had a presence at MardiGras in the past or community
members who I just personallywould like to see at the Mardi
Gras.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, cue Alex Riftian.
I think that was the first oneyou put up there.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Well, that was an obvious choice, because last
year at Mardi Gras he marchedand he waved the flag, he showed
a bit of bicep.
He became a spontaneous gayicon for the Australian Jewish
community.
But I also included Vic Aladef,former editor at the Australian
(02:45):
Jewish News 25 marathons underhis belt.
I've recently learned that Vicis a great ally to the queer
Jewish community here inAustralia.
He also identifies as a fitgrandpa Yep and I thought he
needs to be on the t-shirts toappease the boomers.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Ficala defs a whole pass.
So now this joke has just goneway too far and people have been
calling for the t-shirts.
They're like I want to get thisone, I want to get my
Australian Jewish Mardi Grast-shirt.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
So they do and, having since set up my Redbubble
merchandise online store, nowour listeners and the people who
follow me on social media don'teven have to limit themselves
to t-shirts.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Redbubble, of course automatically generated some
clocks, wall clocks, some petblankets, some pet bandanas,
some bath mats, some showercurtains, some duvet covers.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Just what you wanted.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So I've now accidentally entered the shmada
business.
That's what's happened.
There's a long tradition ofJews working in the shmada
business, the clothing industry.
I feel like now would be theappropriate time to ask if
there's scope in the Jewishindependent budget for a fashion
correspondent.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Probably not.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I think we're getting you to do enough as it is at
the moment.
I'm not sure that we need youto be adding on a whole new job
title.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
I understand that the budget is limited, and if you
had to create a whole newfull-time role, you'd have to
get rid of one, and so I have asuggestion.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
That I go.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Of who you could get rid of.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Who.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I think you could get rid of Itai Flesher, the
Jerusalem correspondent, Like hedoesn't add much value, does he
?
It's not much happening inJerusalem.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Our readers would beg to differ, tammy.
There would be a lot of peoplethat would be very distressed to
see Ittai go, and I know therewill also be readers that will
want to see more Tammy Sussman.
But no, sorry, we're notjettisoning Ittai, we're keeping
him.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
I'm obviously joking.
I'm a huge fan of Ittai Me andeveryone else.
He's such a crowd pleaser.
I'd go so far as to say he'sprobably the most beloved person
in the Jewish community ofAustralia.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
He's got big mensch energy, doesn't he?
Speaker 1 (05:28):
big mensch energy, doesn't he?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
The reason why I say that is because I know that even
for people in the Jewishcommunity who disagree with him
they still like him, or at least, yeah, they have an affection
for him.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
It's warranted.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
There is so much sensitivity in the community
around, talking about theconflict and acknowledging
Palestinian suffering sometimescan lead people to sort of feel
a sense of betrayal, or there'sa strong wish for unity and for
(05:57):
solidarity, and that impulse, Ithink, is something that makes
sense.
And then you've got ItaiFlesher, someone who holds two
narratives, two versions, twoviews the Israeli-Jewish
perspective and the Palestinianperspective.
And it's remarkable that thereare people in the Australian
(06:20):
Jewish community that they maynot necessarily ideologically
support or be aligned with Ittai, but they do hold a kind of an
affection and a respect for him.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Now, as well as being Jerusalem correspondent for the
Jewish Independent Ittai, isalso the education director at
Kids for Peace Jerusalem, aninterfaith movement for Israelis
and Palestinians, and he's justreleased a book it's called the
Holy and the Broken publishedby HarperCollins.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Itai is in Australia promoting the book, which came
about after the success of hispodcast From the Yarra River to
the Mediterranean Sea, which hehosted with Hannah Baker in the
months after the October 7thattacks.
Before moving to Jerusalem,itai was a high school teacher
(07:17):
in Melbourne for 15 years,teaching Australian history,
jewish studies and religion andsociety.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
These days he is a diva Just the demands that man
makes at hotels in his hummers.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
That's not true.
Enough of the introductions, wehope you enjoy this
conversation with the inspiring,the warm, the funny and the
engaging, itai Flesher, itaiFlesher.
(07:58):
Welcome to this makeshiftAshamed to Admit studio.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
It's a pleasure to be here in.
Naam, otherwise known asMelbourne.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
It's really really great to have you.
You are a repeat guest.
This is your third time on thepod.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
There's a saying in Hebrew third time you do
something, you get ice cream.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Okay, but I'm in Melbourne, so I feel like I
should get an acai bowl and thereason why you are here sitting
with me in Richmond is that youare here for the much hyped and
long anticipated launch of theHoly and the Broken.
You've been here, I think, fortwo weeks now.
You'll be here for another twoweeks flying around the country
(08:44):
doing book launches,conversations, media appearances
, radio television all of theabove, seeing lots of friends
and family as well.
How are you going?
How does it feel?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
It's quite overwhelming.
I think I've always dreamed ofwriting a book, but now I'm
seeing people's reactions toreading the book and how it's
moving them and I feel like I'msort of now a cross between an
author and a therapist.
I mean so many people who arereading the book are sharing
(09:20):
their feelings, not just aboutthe war, but about their
Jewishness and about theirencounters with Palestinians and
about their dreams, and becauseI've shared so much personally
about myself, they want toobviously, in kind, share a lot
about themselves.
So I feel like I'm very luckyto be able to do this and at the
same time, yeah, it'sincredibly overwhelming and I'm
(09:42):
just grateful that it happened.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
When you say overwhelming, do you mean at the
end of the day you go into yourroom and you have a bit of a
cry.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
No, I listen to Joni Mitchell when I'm stressed, but
I think there's a lot of Jews inpain here and there's a lot of
Palestinians in pain.
One of the main reasons peopleare in pain is because other
people don't see their pain, andthey don't see their national
pain, they don't see theirpersonal pain, they don't see
their family pain, and becauseso much of my book is about
(10:12):
empathy and seeing the otherperson as a human being before
you see them as a representativeof a nation or a religion or a
person you're at war with.
People want to be validated intheir experiences, and so they
come to me and obviously dovalidate those experiences,
because that's part of whatbeing a dialogue facilitator is,
and then I just yeah, I try andsort of hold all those stories
(10:36):
together with compassion, butit's just, it's a lot to have on
your mind at once sometimes.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
What was the catalyst for you to tell this story?
Speaker 3 (10:47):
So I've been wanting to write a book for many years
and I think the main catalystthat made me actually start
opening up a Word document andwriting was the death of Mark
Baker.
Mark was a very influentialperson in my life and in the
life of, I think, manyAustralian Jews.
(11:07):
In addition to his academicoutput, mark was very
influential in a number oforganisations that were also
influential in my life.
They included Keshet, or whatlater became Stand Up, which is
a Jewish social justiceorganisation, shir Achad Ashar,
which is the first Orthodoxpartnership, minyan in Australia
(11:28):
, the Australian Centre forJewish Civilisation, where Mark
was teaching academic coursesthat had multiple narratives on
Palestine and Israel and alsodoing trips to Israel and
territories that very few groupswere doing, and then also just
his writings and, I think, beinga thought leader in the
(11:50):
community, and it was a voicethat I cherished.
And he died very young and hewas, for me, a series of
contradictions.
He was both in an orthodox shuland he was a feminist.
He was a person who would leadprayer but was also an atheist.
He was a person that taughtHolocaust studies and about the
(12:13):
Rwandan genocide.
He was a Zionist that alsocared deeply about Palestinians
and I, growing up, didn't havemany people in my life that had
both and that held those twothings together.
And maybe there's a lot ofpeople like that today, but I
didn't know many growing up andso I think him passing in 23 was
(12:33):
a great shock for me, and Iknow that he wrote many books
that influenced a lot of peopleand I kind of knew I had a book
in me.
I didn't know what it was about,but I just thought after he
died I'm just going to startwriting my life story and see
where it goes.
And I'd spoken to Dash aboutthat as well, because Dash has
published some books and I waslike Dash, how do you write a
(12:54):
book?
Where do you start?
What's?
How do you publish a book?
What do you put in a chapter?
What order should they be in?
And it was sort of anexploration.
But the book was really vagueuntil October 7th happened and
then I knew what it should beabout.
And then, while I was writingthe book, I was also recording a
podcast called From the YarraRiver to the Mediterranean Sea
(13:14):
with Hannah Baker, and togetherwe were having conversations
about being Jewish on the leftin Australia and in Israel
during the war and then a lot ofthose conversations shaped what
was in the book.
And then, in addition to that,many, many other people that I
interviewed, from Palestine andIsrael about their experiences,
to explore really what doespeace look like at a time when
(13:37):
everyone thinks peace isimpossible?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Let's talk about October 7th, because that is
where the book begins and, asyou said, it was the events of
October 7th that gave the bookits sharp focus and ultimately
it is, I think, one of thecentral planks around which this
memoir is written.
(14:01):
Talk us a little bit about yourexperience on that day.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
So I mean, I think, like many Israelis, I was deeply
in shock.
We live in Jerusalem, my wifeand my two children.
We have a bomb shelter in ourhouse, as does every house in
Israel, but because Jerusalemrarely gets rockets, we don't
use our bomb shelter.
In fact, there's a restaurantnext door that uses it to store
broken microwaves.
And so all of a sudden, veryearly morning on the 7th of
(14:29):
October, we all had to rush intothis disgusting shelter that's
basically a storeroom, and afterwe'd done it two or three times
because every time there'sanother siren, another 10
minutes to sit in there Irealized, okay, I'm going to
have to clean out this place.
So we took out the microwaves,I put in some chairs, some water
.
I had a feeling we were goingto be spending many hours there
(14:50):
and I.
I had a feeling we were going tobe spending many hours there
and I was the only person in thebuilding on my phone because
the rest of my building isreligiously observant, so Jews
who are Orthodox don't look attheir phone on Shabbat and
Simchat Torah, which is theJewish festival, that it was
that day.
And so, because I was the onlyone on my phone, everyone kept
asking me what's going on, and Ialready because I'm on on
(15:12):
telegram, which is a sort ofmessaging app where things can
appear that won't appear on thenews I already had a very good
sense of of what was going on byprobably nine or ten in the
morning, and I was kind of in asense of disbelief and not sure
what to tell the people in thebuilding, and I didn't know if
it was the role of me to tellthem.
(15:34):
But then I also felt that therewas important information that
they should know.
And the other thing I was waryof is that my kids were also in
the shelter with me as we werehaving these conversations, and
I didn't want my kids to knowthat several children had been
kidnapped from their beds thatmorning and I didn't know if
Jerusalem was safe or not atthat time.
(15:56):
And so I'd gone from this placeof, I guess, explaining what
happens in Israel which is kindof like my job to all of a
sudden not knowing how to talkabout the news of the country
where I lived, partly fromdisbelief of what I was seeing
and partly from, if I say thetruth, what's that going to do
(16:19):
to the people around me?
So that was my first feelingson that day.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
The other part of the first chapter, the start of the
book, is you making theconnection between that day and
what had occurred 50 years and aday prior when your late father
, reuven, was called up to theYom Kippur War.
You are the child of Israelis,in fact, you were born in Israel
(16:46):
, later moved to Melbourne, butyour father was a part of that
generation of Israelis that werea part of the war.
In many ways, that kind ofbroke Israel.
And there you were, 50 yearslater and a day, and it feels
like the next major substantivemilitary and social crisis was
(17:09):
upon Israel.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Yeah, so the Yom Kippur War broke out on October
6th of 1973.
And in the lead up to October7th of 2023, I think for about
two weeks, I watched about eightdocumentaries about the Yom
Kippur War, because there was alot of 50th anniversary
documentaries and I wasobviously interested to
understand about that war, bothbecause my father fought in it,
(17:33):
as did my uncle, and I'd gone onYom Kippur that year, which was
a few days before October 7thalso to synagogue where there
was a special service inmemorial of the Yom Kippur,
where a number of soldiers andnurses and different people in
the neighborhood share theirexperiences.
And when October 7th happened,I don't know why, in my mind, I
(17:53):
just thought someone isrecreating the Yom Kippur War.
Because again there's a shock.
Again there's a sense of weweren't expecting this.
Again there's a sense of we'renot ready for this.
Again there's a sense of no onesaw it.
Because, you know, after theSix-Day War, everyone in Israel
thought Egypt's defeated,they're not going to bother with
(18:13):
us again.
We just won the Six-Day War.
And I remember there wereinterviews on October 2nd, 3rd.
People were talking about Hamas.
Everyone was like Hamas isdefeated, hamas would never do
this, hamas is they're weak.
So there was the same sort of Iguess, arrogance hubris, the
same sort of I guess, arrogancehubris, flawed intelligence that
(18:34):
existed the weeks beforeOctober 6th 1973, where no one
saw Egypt coming.
It's almost that same thinghappened before October 7th,
where no one saw the Hamas thingcoming.
So I almost felt like, maybebecause I love teaching history,
like that, this history wasrepeating again and so now I
know that the dates are notconnected.
(18:55):
Maybe because I love teachinghistory, like that this history
was repeating again and so now Iknow that the dates are not
connected.
But initially I was very surethat there was some sort of Yom
Kippur connection to the datethat was chosen for October 7th.
Well, indeed it occurred onSimchat Torah, and it was on
Shabbat as well, so Israeliswere not ready on that morning,
yes, and I think, in the sameway that on Yom Kippur the army
(19:17):
bases are pretty empty, thatShabbat of Simchat Torah there
were far, far less soldiers onall of the bases around southern
Gaza than would have been onany other day of the year.
So, yes, the date being aJewish festival, I think is very
significant the year.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
So yes, the date being a Jewish festival, I think
is very significant.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
So do you remember that you and I spoke in?
Speaker 1 (19:39):
the days after.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
October 7th.
I spoke to about a thousandpeople that week.
Most people messaging meliterally say Itay, are you
alive?
Yes, and which is a weirdquestion to have to answer a
thousand times answer a thousandtimes.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
So when we spoke in those days after October 7th, by
that stage I think thesituation had stabilised
somewhat.
Israel was still facingbombardments, but more or less
they had regained control andaccounted for all of the
infiltrators into Israel andaccounted for all of the
infiltrators into Israel.
So I think you were perhapsless concerned for your
(20:18):
immediate safety than maybe youhad been in the first 24 hours.
But I asked you about yourfears and your anxieties.
What you said to me was thatyou're now very afraid of what
Israel is going to do to thePalestinians in Gaza and that
that was actually what wasmaking you most anxious.
(20:40):
Did your worst anxieties cometrue?
Speaker 3 (20:45):
I think when October 7th happened and I had, you know
, incredible fear and worries ofrockets and you know it was a
traumatic day I was like I don'twant anyone else to experience
what I did that day because itwas awful.
It was awful for me, it wasawful for my children, it was
awful what I saw on TV and itbecame very clear to me that
(21:09):
people in Gaza were about toexperience what I experienced on
October 7th, but on a muchlarger scale.
I didn't know exactly how largethat scale would be, but, yes,
it was definitely a concern forme and unfortunately, that is
exactly what happened.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Itai, you have this amazing capacity to have empathy
for I hate using the word sidesbut both groups of people.
Why do you think that is?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
I think my whole life I've been with people who are
opposite to me.
My own family I have, you know,I'm secular on the left.
I've got a right-wing Haredibrother.
I've got a mother who's born inIraq, a father who's born in
Germany.
I've taught at Adas, a Haredischool.
I've taught at King David, areform school.
(21:57):
I have close friends who aresettlers and Palestinians.
And you know just my whole lifeof just being surrounded by
people who are different with meand I talk to them and I listen
to them and I don't hate thembecause they disagree with me.
And I think part of being onthe left is being a pluralist
(22:17):
and I think a lot of people onthe left have forgotten what it
means to be on the left.
But I believe pluralism is atthe heart of my sort of world
ideology and that means seeingpeople that I don't agree with
as human beings andunderstanding that most people
that disagree with me they'renot mad, they're not insane,
(22:37):
they're not brainwashed, they'renot all the things that people
say about them.
They just had a different lifeexperience.
And if I would have had thoselife experiences that they had,
I probably would also believethose ideologies, and I'm lucky
that I had life experiences thatgenerated empathy through you
know people like Mark Baker andteachers that I've had over the
(23:00):
years and I've been a youthmovement Madrich and a high
school teacher.
You know what happens in a highschool classroom.
Every day, 20 kids who have,you know, way too much hormones
in their lives, share theiropinions with one another in a
really unfiltered and intensemanner and you, as a teacher,
have to manage that.
That's what I did for 15 years,putting aside the subjects I
(23:21):
taught, like the actual realityof a classroom is that's what
you do.
So I learned very quickly tosay, okay, daniel feels this,
and Janice feels this, and Davidfeels this, and Naomi feels
this, and then like that's howyou hold together a classroom of
you seven kids, and so, yeah,it comes very natural to me to
(23:42):
hold space for multiple voices.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
When you were in Jerusalem if I'm not mistaken,
prior to October 7, you wereworking as an interfaith
dialogue facilitator.
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Yes, at Kids for Peace Jerusalem, a program of
Seeds of Peace, where we everysecond Thursday night we bring
together Israeli and Palestiniankids to meet each other in kind
, of like a youth movementenvironment.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Is there something that you have observed and noted
in some ways very disturbingparadox that there you are in
Israel in dialogue withPalestinians and Muslims, so
close to the sort of centrepoint of this confrontation,
(24:28):
this violence.
It's so raw there, and yet Iknow that you have been, you
continue to be and you willalways find others that are
ready and willing to engage in adialogue with you, between Jews
, between Palestinians andMuslims.
And yet here in Australia rightnow, it would be almost
(24:52):
impossible to find a JewishAustralian and a Muslim
Australian leader, religious orotherwise, who are ready and
willing to engage in a dialogue.
It seems that civil dialoguebetween the two sides in this
city and indeed in this countryright now is impossible, and yet
(25:13):
we are so far away from theconflict.
Yeah, so I'm interested in yourthoughts on that.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I'll just maybe challenge one primitive question
.
I think in Australia there is alot of connections between Jews
and Muslims who agree with eachother on everything.
They're on the far left, andthere's also dialogue between
Jews and Muslims on the farright, when they happen to agree
with each other on everything,if they're on the far left and
there's also dialogue betweenJews and Muslims on the far
right when they happen to agreewith each other on everything as
well.
The place where there isn'tdialogue is between, say,
(25:40):
supporters of Israel andsupporters of Palestine, of many
religions, where they don'tagree with each other, and then
it becomes impossible to talknot only about that topic but
about any other topic.
And then it becomes impossibleto talk not only about that
topic but about any other topic.
And what I find fascinating, orvery sad actually, is the fact
that we in Jerusalem have allthe reasons not to talk to one
(26:01):
another because this directlyaffects our lives.
Yet we do, whereas in Australia,when you're tens of thousands
of kilometers away from this andyou don't have those pressures,
it's harder for you to talk,and I think one of the reasons
for that is, I'd say, a lot ofthe people that are in dialogue
in Jerusalem.
We know that there's no otheralternative.
We know that ultimately, thisis our home and if I stay in my
(26:23):
bubble and you stay in yourbubble, that's going to
ultimately cause a lot of deathand destruction for everyone,
whereas I think sometimes inMelbourne people feel like we
have the luxury of not talkingto each other because we can
have security and walls andfences and we can be in our own
echo chambers and if I gothrough my whole day without
(26:45):
talking to someone on the otherside, then I didn't lose
anything.
And I think that wasn't theAustralia that I grew up in.
You know, I grew up in acountry where every second day,
you heard the wordmulticulturalism.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
I don't think we hear that word in Australia.
Now there's this new buzzwordcalled social cohesion.
I don't exactly know what itmeans, but I feel like it came
from some think tank.
But yeah, there's a real crisishere in social cohesion and I
think it goes back to the factthat we are all very good at
debate and advocacy.
I think you know.
(27:21):
I look at the Jewish communityevents, emails and every day
there's how to advocate, how tospeak, how to win a debate, how
to make a point, how to do asocial media meme.
I haven't seen one workshop onhow to dialogue.
Dialogue is a skill, just asadvocacy is a skill.
Dialogue is really hard and youhave to learn a lot about
yourself and you have to bevulnerable and sometimes you cry
(27:43):
and it challenges your beliefs.
But who's teaching dialogue?
And it's the same for thePalestinian side.
There's an immense amount oftime and effort involved in
advocacy.
Understandably so, because theywant the destruction of Gaza to
end, but I don't see anyonesaying maybe dialogue could also
be a tool that could makethings better for us and safer
(28:06):
for us here in Melbourne andSydney.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
I think people are starting to realise that.
In fact, last week, weinterviewed Dr Josh Roos, and
one of the things that stood outto me from that interview was
when he mentioned the fact that,in order to heal or in order to
move forward, one of the thingsthat's going to have to happen
is more outreach.
It's easy enough for someone tosay that who isn't traumatised,
(28:32):
and he acknowledged that.
For someone to say that whoisn't traumatized, and he
acknowledged that.
Do you think that we can moveforward if we continue to stay
in our bubbles?
Speaker 3 (28:40):
I'm going to share a dream, because you know I'm a
dreamer.
If there's any listeners herethat have a million dollars,
this is what I want you to do.
I want you to make an app, andthe app is called Meal by you,
and the way the app works iseveryone in Australia opens a
profile and on the profile sortof a bit like a dating profile,
but there's no sex involved youmaybe that also happens with
(29:03):
some dating profiles as wellactually you put a photo of
yourself and your family andthen you write all of your
biases I like Albo, I like PennyWong, I'm left wing.
I of your biases, I like elbow,I like Penny Wong, I'm left
wing, I'm right wing, I'mstraight, I'm gay, I am a
vegetarian, I'm a Christian, I'ma Jew, et cetera.
And then on the other side, youwrite someone that you want to
(29:26):
meet with that has a differentview for you.
I want to have a meal with aMuslim.
I want to have a meal withsomeone unemployed.
I I want to have a meal with aMuslim.
I want to have a meal withsomeone unemployed.
I want to have a meal withsomeone that lives in rural
Victoria.
I want to have a meal withsomeone who is an immigrant.
I want to have a meal withsomeone who's a refugee.
And then what the app does is itmatches you up with someone
(29:46):
opposite to you and you have tohave two meals one at your house
and one at their house.
Now, the rule is it can't be ina cafe, it has to be in your
houses, because when you have ameal in someone's house, you
learn so much about them.
You see the artwork on theirwalls, or the lack of artwork on
the walls, you see theneighborhood where they live,
you see, maybe, their pets, whatmusic is on in the background,
(30:09):
what the garden looks like, andyou start seeing them, not as
this, like sort of box on a Zoomscreen as we often talk to each
other, but you start seeingthem as a real person.
And then a week later, theycome to your house for a meal
and the same thing happens andthey see, let's say, you're
Jewish.
They see a menorah on yourmantelpiece, like what's a
menorah.
They see a little box on yourdoor what's a mezuzah?
(30:31):
And they see a little box onyour door what's a mezuzah?
And they might eat somehorrible bread and you'll say
this is matzah.
I'm sorry about this you knowand you see each other as a full
person.
And then, I think, imaginesomeone would create this app
and every year in Australia,tens of thousands of people
would be having meals two meals,that's it with someone
different from them.
(30:52):
Then people would go back homeand say you meals, that's it
with someone different from them.
And then people would go backhome and say, you know, I know
people say this stuff all thetime about Afghan refugees or
about Jews or about, you know,the Muslims who come from Sudan
or whatever it is.
But you know, I had a meal withone and this is what happened.
Wouldn't that be amazing forsocial cohesion?
Because now, when we talk aboutsocial cohesion, it's often
(31:13):
framed as, and how to combatanti-Semitism and racism and
these sorts of things.
It's often the sense of we needtougher laws and we need more
walls and we need more fencesand we need more security guards
.
But that only deals with thesymptom.
Security is only helpful whenthere's an attacker on the way
and it stops it.
But I want to stop the hatredin the first place.
I want to stop people doingthat, and I think one of the
(31:35):
main causes of the hatred isdehumanisation, is people not
knowing each other, and so Ithink, just as we're investing
in security and I'm not denyingsecurity is important, obviously
it is we also need to invest indialogue and in bridge building
and an app like the one Isuggested, or another idea,
because I think that's alsoimportant for our safety and for
(32:00):
making us feel more at home inAustralia, which I think is a
really important thing to doright now, as it is in Jerusalem
.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Itai, you're such a dreamer.
That's beautiful and as a cynic, I was like that could also
double up as a murder app.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Well, do you remember ?
A few years ago, someone hadthis crazy idea that anyone
could be a taxi driver?
Any person, any random dude,could be a taxi driver, and I've
been in Australia now for twoweeks.
I've been in a few Ubers and itworks.
And then someone else came upwith a crazy idea that anyone
can be a hotel owner, and nowthere's like 10,000 homes in
(32:38):
Australia in this app calledAirbnb, where everyone rents out
their homes to everyone elseand it kind of works.
Yes, there's a few bad storieswith Uber and Airbnb, but 99% of
people use these apps and havepositive experience.
But, like, hopefully, hopefully, this app will lead to far more
good than bad, and I don'tthink we can let the one or two
(32:58):
people who may abuse this appstop it from doing a lot of good
in Australian society, which issomething that I think it could
.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
The book's coda touches on two influential
figures in your life, and we'vealready mentioned them the late
mark baker, and also your father, reuben, both of whom passed
away prematurely from cancer, asdid, I believe, your uncle.
I sense from you that the book,the work that you're moving
(33:33):
forward with now, is motivatedin part by your own thinking
about mortality and of thefragility of life.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Yes, I know it's very cliche to say one should live
every day as if it's your last,but when you have the family
history of pancreatic cancerthat I have and you live in a
place where I've gone to farmore funerals this year than I
would have wanted to in my wholelife, you really hold on to
every moment of life as beingprecious.
(34:07):
And I every day do so manythings every day music, meetings
, work, work, social, obviously,time with my wife and my kids
and people often ask me how doyou, how do you fit so much into
every day?
And and then you're also on topof social media and that sort of
thing, and I'm like, because Ionly live once and because I'm
lucky that at the moment in mylife I'm I'm young and I'm
(34:30):
healthy and I can communicateclearly, and there's a lot of
stuff I want to do, and I feellike, again, I've been given a
gift that I can communicate, Ithink, to people in ways that
maybe some other people can't,and I want to use that skill to
do good and to give people hopeand to give people comfort, and
(34:51):
that's part of why I wrote thisbook.
It's part of why I wrote thisbook.
It's part of why I made thepodcast with hannah baker.
It's also part of why I writeand why I was a teacher, because
I think, when people sort ofshow the best of themselves to
others, others show the best ofthemselves to you, because the
whole, the whole world operateson that, on that beautiful idea
(35:12):
of which is if you love yourneighbour as yourself, then your
neighbours will love you asthemselves too.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
I met your mother for the first time the other night.
She's such a fan of the Jewishindependent brand she asked for
a T-shirt.
It's wonderful that she couldbe there.
What do you think Reuven wouldhave made of what you've done,
your career, your work as apeace builder, your writing in
this book?
Speaker 3 (35:39):
So Abba was a peacemaker as well.
I think he was very beloved byall of the people who knew him.
He very rarely would gossipabout people.
He was a very kind person and Itry and honor his memory in
what I do.
In fact, when I was packing myclothes for the book launch in
(36:02):
Israel, I have an old sweaterthat he used to wear and I said
to Cam, I really want to wearAbba's sweater, and it was a
sweater from the 1970s and mywife said to me I really get the
sentiment of you wanting to doa book launch with your father's
sweater, but it's really uglyand you can't wear this in front
of 500 people.
So I did it.
(36:22):
I got a nicer shirt that Ibought for the occasion.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
You look very smart the other night.
I should say Thank you.
I like your dress and shirt.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
No, I really thought, well, how else can I carry his
memory without wearing hissweater?
So I put a photo of him and mymother on the screen at the
start of the book launch and Ispoke about him.
And, yeah, I think all of uswant to do things that honor the
people that came before us.
A lot of the book launchactually, I spent probably 10
minutes acknowledging differentpeople in my life that had
(36:50):
helped me write this book.
Book because I think it'simportant that in order to know
where we're going, we need toknow where we came from.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
As TJI's future fashion correspondent, I would
just like to add my two centsand say no disrespect to Calm,
but I think you need to bewearing that vintage sweater in
more of your promo.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
Okay, well, I did bring it with me to Australia,
and so I will try and do atleast one event with a vintage
sweater.
Thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Great.
I want to see it on Instagram.
The name of your book, againItai, is the Holy and the Broken
.
Who would you love to read thebook?
Speaker 3 (37:27):
So I write in the book that the purpose of the
book is to comfort the troubledand trouble the comfortable, and
that's who should read the book.
So people that have found thepast 15 months awful and need
comforting, they should read thebook.
And also people that reallystruggle to see either Israelis
or Palestinians as human beingsand show empathy with them, and
(37:49):
that this book will make themuncomfortable, they should read
it too.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Good answer.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Given the current turn in the space of the last
few weeks.
Where are you finding hope inthe current moment?
Speaker 3 (38:03):
So I just want to explain the difference between a
politician and an educator.
A politician is responsible forhaving answers to short-term
problems that can be implementedtomorrow.
So often people say I feelunsafe, I need economic
prosperity, I need a home, andthe politician says, if you vote
for me, I will do this tomorrowand I will fix your problem.
(38:25):
I am not a politician, I do notwant to be a politician and I
never will be a politician, andI don't have answers for
short-term questions like theones people ask me a lot,
because they're very, verycomplicated things and
thankfully there are very wisepoliticians that I respect and
think tanks that do havesolutions to these.
(38:46):
I'm an educator, which meansthat I mainly work with children
who may only realize the thingsI taught them 20 or 30 years
after I teach them those things.
That's how education works.
You plant seeds and they grow,and so the things that, yeah, if
I look at the short term,obviously there's not a lot to
be optimistic in.
(39:07):
There's a lot of, in the shortterm, very, very awful things
that are happening in the placewhere I live and there's awful
things happening to Australiaand that's very depressing.
But the reason I'm hopeful forthe future is because I know
that by working with childrenand working with education, and
talking about hope and talkingabout a future different, that's
different from our own, there'ssomething to grasp onto that
(39:30):
can hopefully not make tomorrowa repeat of yesterday, but
instead make tomorrow somethingwhere all people shed their land
, their eye, live in equalityand also people in Australia can
go back to again calling thisthe lucky country.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Beautiful.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Isai Flesher.
Congratulations, mazel Tov, onthe release of the Holy and the
Broken.
All listeners should be gettingtheir copy at all good
bookstores.
So great to see you doing yourthing in front of hundreds of
people in Melbourne, Sydney andPerth.
Look forward to anotherconversation live, perhaps in
(40:10):
Jerusalem when we come over anddo a shame to admit in Jerusalem
.
Perhaps again here in Melbourne, wherever it is.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Or perhaps in Lisbon when Itai joins the new
community that I'm setting upthere.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
So, as we say in Arabic Inshallah.
And can you hear a song?
So may it be.
Thank you, so may it be.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Thank you.
That was Itai Flesher,education Director at Kids for
Peace and Jerusalem,correspondent for the Jewish
Independent, and that's it foranother week.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
You've been listening to.
A Shame to Admit with me, tammySussman and Executive Director
of TJI, dr Dashiell Lawrence.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
If you like the podcast, leave a positive review
, tell your people or encourageyour third cousin's cousin to
advertise on the show.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
You can tell us what you're ashamed to admit via the
contact form on the JewishIndependent website or by
emailing ashamed at thejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
As always, thank you for your support and look out
for us next week.
Thank you.
Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in
Australia, the Middle East andthe world at large?
But a little bit ashamed thatyou're barely keeping up to date
.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Well, you've come to the right place.
I'm Dash Lawrence and, in thispodcast series, your overwhelmed
third cousin, tammy Sussman,and I call on experts and each
other to address all theignorant questions that you may
be too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Join us as we have a go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast.
Ashamed to Admit podcast.
A shame to admit.
Hello everyone, I'm Dash.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Lawrence, Executive Director here at the Jewish
Independent, and I'm futurefashion mogul Tammy Sussman.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Future fashion mogul Nice.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Have you heard the news?
Have you seen the Insta stories?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Well done.
I'm blown away by yourentrepreneurial spirit, tammy.
You're always looking for thenext thing that could
potentially generate you someextra income, or-.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
I wasn't looking for this, by the way.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
This was completely spontaneous.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Let me fill the listener in.
So we are approaching MardiGras, the festival celebrating
LGBTIQ plus Australians, and inhonour of that, tammy Sussman
put up not necessarily with anyseriousness a series of kind of
(01:51):
t-shirt ideas referencingAustralian Jews that are
well-known in the community.
And tell us what the messagewas on that shirt, tammy?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
The message said my Mardi Gras hall pass is and I
just put different names ofcommunity members who have
either had a presence at MardiGras in the past or community
members who I just personallywould like to see at the Mardi
Gras.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, cue Alex Riftian.
I think that was the first oneyou put up there.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Well, that was an obvious choice, because last
year at Mardi Gras he marchedand he waved the flag, he showed
a bit of bicep.
He became a spontaneous gayicon for the Australian Jewish
community.
But I also included Vic Aladef,former editor at the Australian
(02:45):
Jewish News 25 marathons underhis belt.
I've recently learned that Vicis a great ally to the queer
Jewish community here inAustralia.
He also identifies as a fitgrandpa Yep and I thought he
needs to be on the t-shirts toappease the boomers.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Ficala defs a whole pass.
So now this joke has just goneway too far and people have been
calling for the t-shirts.
They're like I want to get thisone, I want to get my
Australian Jewish Mardi Grast-shirt.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
So they do and, having since set up my Redbubble
merchandise online store, nowour listeners and the people who
follow me on social media don'teven have to limit themselves
to t-shirts.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Redbubble, of course automatically generated some
clocks, wall clocks, some petblankets, some pet bandanas,
some bath mats, some showercurtains, some duvet covers.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Just what you wanted.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So I've now accidentally entered the shmada
business.
That's what's happened.
There's a long tradition ofJews working in the shmada
business, the clothing industry.
I feel like now would be theappropriate time to ask if
there's scope in the Jewishindependent budget for a fashion
correspondent.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Probably not.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I think we're getting you to do enough as it is at
the moment.
I'm not sure that we need youto be adding on a whole new job
title.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
I understand that the budget is limited, and if you
had to create a whole newfull-time role, you'd have to
get rid of one, and so I have asuggestion.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
That I go.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Of who you could get rid of.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Who.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I think you could get rid of Itai Flesher, the
Jerusalem correspondent, Like hedoesn't add much value, does he
?
It's not much happening inJerusalem.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Our readers would beg to differ, tammy.
There would be a lot of peoplethat would be very distressed to
see Ittai go, and I know therewill also be readers that will
want to see more Tammy Sussman.
But no, sorry, we're notjettisoning Ittai, we're keeping
him.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
I'm obviously joking.
I'm a huge fan of Ittai Me andeveryone else.
He's such a crowd pleaser.
I'd go so far as to say he'sprobably the most beloved person
in the Jewish community ofAustralia.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
He's got big mensch energy, doesn't he?
Speaker 1 (05:28):
big mensch energy, doesn't he?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
The reason why I say that is because I know that even
for people in the Jewishcommunity who disagree with him
they still like him, or at least, yeah, they have an affection
for him.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
It's warranted.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
There is so much sensitivity in the community
around, talking about theconflict and acknowledging
Palestinian suffering sometimescan lead people to sort of feel
a sense of betrayal, or there'sa strong wish for unity and for
(05:57):
solidarity, and that impulse, Ithink, is something that makes
sense.
And then you've got ItaiFlesher, someone who holds two
narratives, two versions, twoviews the Israeli-Jewish
perspective and the Palestinianperspective.
And it's remarkable that thereare people in the Australian
(06:20):
Jewish community that they maynot necessarily ideologically
support or be aligned with Ittai, but they do hold a kind of an
affection and a respect for him.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Now, as well as being Jerusalem correspondent for the
Jewish Independent Ittai, isalso the education director at
Kids for Peace Jerusalem, aninterfaith movement for Israelis
and Palestinians, and he's justreleased a book it's called the
Holy and the Broken publishedby HarperCollins.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Itai is in Australia promoting the book, which came
about after the success of hispodcast From the Yarra River to
the Mediterranean Sea, which hehosted with Hannah Baker in the
months after the October 7thattacks.
Before moving to Jerusalem,itai was a high school teacher
(07:17):
in Melbourne for 15 years,teaching Australian history,
jewish studies and religion andsociety.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
These days he is a diva Just the demands that man
makes at hotels in his hummers.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
That's not true.
Enough of the introductions, wehope you enjoy this
conversation with the inspiring,the warm, the funny and the
engaging, itai Flesher, itaiFlesher.
(07:58):
Welcome to this makeshiftAshamed to Admit studio.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
It's a pleasure to be here in.
Naam, otherwise known asMelbourne.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
It's really really great to have you.
You are a repeat guest.
This is your third time on thepod.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
There's a saying in Hebrew third time you do
something, you get ice cream.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Okay, but I'm in Melbourne, so I feel like I
should get an acai bowl and thereason why you are here sitting
with me in Richmond is that youare here for the much hyped and
long anticipated launch of theHoly and the Broken.
You've been here, I think, fortwo weeks now.
You'll be here for another twoweeks flying around the country
(08:44):
doing book launches,conversations, media appearances
, radio television all of theabove, seeing lots of friends
and family as well.
How are you going?
How does it feel?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
It's quite overwhelming.
I think I've always dreamed ofwriting a book, but now I'm
seeing people's reactions toreading the book and how it's
moving them and I feel like I'msort of now a cross between an
author and a therapist.
I mean so many people who arereading the book are sharing
(09:20):
their feelings, not just aboutthe war, but about their
Jewishness and about theirencounters with Palestinians and
about their dreams, and becauseI've shared so much personally
about myself, they want toobviously, in kind, share a lot
about themselves.
So I feel like I'm very luckyto be able to do this and at the
same time, yeah, it'sincredibly overwhelming and I'm
(09:42):
just grateful that it happened.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
When you say overwhelming, do you mean at the
end of the day you go into yourroom and you have a bit of a
cry.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
No, I listen to Joni Mitchell when I'm stressed, but
I think there's a lot of Jews inpain here and there's a lot of
Palestinians in pain.
One of the main reasons peopleare in pain is because other
people don't see their pain, andthey don't see their national
pain, they don't see theirpersonal pain, they don't see
their family pain, and becauseso much of my book is about
(10:12):
empathy and seeing the otherperson as a human being before
you see them as a representativeof a nation or a religion or a
person you're at war with.
People want to be validated intheir experiences, and so they
come to me and obviously dovalidate those experiences,
because that's part of whatbeing a dialogue facilitator is,
and then I just yeah, I try andsort of hold all those stories
(10:36):
together with compassion, butit's just, it's a lot to have on
your mind at once sometimes.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
What was the catalyst for you to tell this story?
Speaker 3 (10:47):
So I've been wanting to write a book for many years
and I think the main catalystthat made me actually start
opening up a Word document andwriting was the death of Mark
Baker.
Mark was a very influentialperson in my life and in the
life of, I think, manyAustralian Jews.
(11:07):
In addition to his academicoutput, mark was very
influential in a number oforganisations that were also
influential in my life.
They included Keshet, or whatlater became Stand Up, which is
a Jewish social justiceorganisation, shir Achad Ashar,
which is the first Orthodoxpartnership, minyan in Australia
(11:28):
, the Australian Centre forJewish Civilisation, where Mark
was teaching academic coursesthat had multiple narratives on
Palestine and Israel and alsodoing trips to Israel and
territories that very few groupswere doing, and then also just
his writings and, I think, beinga thought leader in the
(11:50):
community, and it was a voicethat I cherished.
And he died very young and hewas, for me, a series of
contradictions.
He was both in an orthodox shuland he was a feminist.
He was a person who would leadprayer but was also an atheist.
He was a person that taughtHolocaust studies and about the
(12:13):
Rwandan genocide.
He was a Zionist that alsocared deeply about Palestinians
and I, growing up, didn't havemany people in my life that had
both and that held those twothings together.
And maybe there's a lot ofpeople like that today, but I
didn't know many growing up andso I think him passing in 23 was
(12:33):
a great shock for me, and Iknow that he wrote many books
that influenced a lot of peopleand I kind of knew I had a book
in me.
I didn't know what it was about,but I just thought after he
died I'm just going to startwriting my life story and see
where it goes.
And I'd spoken to Dash aboutthat as well, because Dash has
published some books and I waslike Dash, how do you write a
(12:54):
book?
Where do you start?
What's?
How do you publish a book?
What do you put in a chapter?
What order should they be in?
And it was sort of anexploration.
But the book was really vagueuntil October 7th happened and
then I knew what it should beabout.
And then, while I was writingthe book, I was also recording a
podcast called From the YarraRiver to the Mediterranean Sea
(13:14):
with Hannah Baker, and togetherwe were having conversations
about being Jewish on the leftin Australia and in Israel
during the war and then a lot ofthose conversations shaped what
was in the book.
And then, in addition to that,many, many other people that I
interviewed, from Palestine andIsrael about their experiences,
to explore really what doespeace look like at a time when
(13:37):
everyone thinks peace isimpossible?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Let's talk about October 7th, because that is
where the book begins and, asyou said, it was the events of
October 7th that gave the bookits sharp focus and ultimately
it is, I think, one of thecentral planks around which this
memoir is written.
(14:01):
Talk us a little bit about yourexperience on that day.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
So I mean, I think, like many Israelis, I was deeply
in shock.
We live in Jerusalem, my wifeand my two children.
We have a bomb shelter in ourhouse, as does every house in
Israel, but because Jerusalemrarely gets rockets, we don't
use our bomb shelter.
In fact, there's a restaurantnext door that uses it to store
broken microwaves.
And so all of a sudden, veryearly morning on the 7th of
(14:29):
October, we all had to rush intothis disgusting shelter that's
basically a storeroom, and afterwe'd done it two or three times
because every time there'sanother siren, another 10
minutes to sit in there Irealized, okay, I'm going to
have to clean out this place.
So we took out the microwaves,I put in some chairs, some water
.
I had a feeling we were goingto be spending many hours there
(14:50):
and I.
I had a feeling we were going tobe spending many hours there
and I was the only person in thebuilding on my phone because
the rest of my building isreligiously observant, so Jews
who are Orthodox don't look attheir phone on Shabbat and
Simchat Torah, which is theJewish festival, that it was
that day.
And so, because I was the onlyone on my phone, everyone kept
asking me what's going on, and Ialready because I'm on on
(15:12):
telegram, which is a sort ofmessaging app where things can
appear that won't appear on thenews I already had a very good
sense of of what was going on byprobably nine or ten in the
morning, and I was kind of in asense of disbelief and not sure
what to tell the people in thebuilding, and I didn't know if
it was the role of me to tellthem.
(15:34):
But then I also felt that therewas important information that
they should know.
And the other thing I was waryof is that my kids were also in
the shelter with me as we werehaving these conversations, and
I didn't want my kids to knowthat several children had been
kidnapped from their beds thatmorning and I didn't know if
Jerusalem was safe or not atthat time.
(15:56):
And so I'd gone from this placeof, I guess, explaining what
happens in Israel which is kindof like my job to all of a
sudden not knowing how to talkabout the news of the country
where I lived, partly fromdisbelief of what I was seeing
and partly from, if I say thetruth, what's that going to do
(16:19):
to the people around me?
So that was my first feelingson that day.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
The other part of the first chapter, the start of the
book, is you making theconnection between that day and
what had occurred 50 years and aday prior when your late father
, reuven, was called up to theYom Kippur War.
You are the child of Israelis,in fact, you were born in Israel
(16:46):
, later moved to Melbourne, butyour father was a part of that
generation of Israelis that werea part of the war.
In many ways, that kind ofbroke Israel.
And there you were, 50 yearslater and a day, and it feels
like the next major substantivemilitary and social crisis was
(17:09):
upon Israel.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Yeah, so the Yom Kippur War broke out on October
6th of 1973.
And in the lead up to October7th of 2023, I think for about
two weeks, I watched about eightdocumentaries about the Yom
Kippur War, because there was alot of 50th anniversary
documentaries and I wasobviously interested to
understand about that war, bothbecause my father fought in it,
(17:33):
as did my uncle, and I'd gone onYom Kippur that year, which was
a few days before October 7thalso to synagogue where there
was a special service inmemorial of the Yom Kippur,
where a number of soldiers andnurses and different people in
the neighborhood share theirexperiences.
And when October 7th happened,I don't know why, in my mind, I
(17:53):
just thought someone isrecreating the Yom Kippur War.
Because again there's a shock.
Again there's a sense of weweren't expecting this.
Again there's a sense of we'renot ready for this.
Again there's a sense of no onesaw it.
Because, you know, after theSix-Day War, everyone in Israel
thought Egypt's defeated,they're not going to bother with
(18:13):
us again.
We just won the Six-Day War.
And I remember there wereinterviews on October 2nd, 3rd.
People were talking about Hamas.
Everyone was like Hamas isdefeated, hamas would never do
this, hamas is they're weak.
So there was the same sort of Iguess, arrogance hubris, the
same sort of I guess, arrogancehubris, flawed intelligence that
(18:34):
existed the weeks beforeOctober 6th 1973, where no one
saw Egypt coming.
It's almost that same thinghappened before October 7th,
where no one saw the Hamas thingcoming.
So I almost felt like, maybebecause I love teaching history,
like that, this history wasrepeating again and so now I
know that the dates are notconnected.
(18:55):
Maybe because I love teachinghistory, like that this history
was repeating again and so now Iknow that the dates are not
connected.
But initially I was very surethat there was some sort of Yom
Kippur connection to the datethat was chosen for October 7th.
Well, indeed it occurred onSimchat Torah, and it was on
Shabbat as well, so Israeliswere not ready on that morning,
yes, and I think, in the sameway that on Yom Kippur the army
(19:17):
bases are pretty empty, thatShabbat of Simchat Torah there
were far, far less soldiers onall of the bases around southern
Gaza than would have been onany other day of the year.
So, yes, the date being aJewish festival, I think is very
significant the year.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
So yes, the date being a Jewish festival, I think
is very significant.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
So do you remember that you and I spoke in?
Speaker 1 (19:39):
the days after.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
October 7th.
I spoke to about a thousandpeople that week.
Most people messaging meliterally say Itay, are you
alive?
Yes, and which is a weirdquestion to have to answer a
thousand times answer a thousandtimes.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
So when we spoke in those days after October 7th, by
that stage I think thesituation had stabilised
somewhat.
Israel was still facingbombardments, but more or less
they had regained control andaccounted for all of the
infiltrators into Israel andaccounted for all of the
infiltrators into Israel.
So I think you were perhapsless concerned for your
(20:18):
immediate safety than maybe youhad been in the first 24 hours.
But I asked you about yourfears and your anxieties.
What you said to me was thatyou're now very afraid of what
Israel is going to do to thePalestinians in Gaza and that
that was actually what wasmaking you most anxious.
(20:40):
Did your worst anxieties cometrue?
Speaker 3 (20:45):
I think when October 7th happened and I had, you know
, incredible fear and worries ofrockets and you know it was a
traumatic day I was like I don'twant anyone else to experience
what I did that day because itwas awful.
It was awful for me, it wasawful for my children, it was
awful what I saw on TV and itbecame very clear to me that
(21:09):
people in Gaza were about toexperience what I experienced on
October 7th, but on a muchlarger scale.
I didn't know exactly how largethat scale would be, but, yes,
it was definitely a concern forme and unfortunately, that is
exactly what happened.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Itai, you have this amazing capacity to have empathy
for I hate using the word sidesbut both groups of people.
Why do you think that is?
Speaker 3 (21:37):
I think my whole life I've been with people who are
opposite to me.
My own family I have, you know,I'm secular on the left.
I've got a right-wing Haredibrother.
I've got a mother who's born inIraq, a father who's born in
Germany.
I've taught at Adas, a Haredischool.
I've taught at King David, areform school.
(21:57):
I have close friends who aresettlers and Palestinians.
And you know just my whole lifeof just being surrounded by
people who are different with meand I talk to them and I listen
to them and I don't hate thembecause they disagree with me.
And I think part of being onthe left is being a pluralist
(22:17):
and I think a lot of people onthe left have forgotten what it
means to be on the left.
But I believe pluralism is atthe heart of my sort of world
ideology and that means seeingpeople that I don't agree with
as human beings andunderstanding that most people
that disagree with me they'renot mad, they're not insane,
(22:37):
they're not brainwashed, they'renot all the things that people
say about them.
They just had a different lifeexperience.
And if I would have had thoselife experiences that they had,
I probably would also believethose ideologies, and I'm lucky
that I had life experiences thatgenerated empathy through you
know people like Mark Baker andteachers that I've had over the
(23:00):
years and I've been a youthmovement Madrich and a high
school teacher.
You know what happens in a highschool classroom.
Every day, 20 kids who have,you know, way too much hormones
in their lives, share theiropinions with one another in a
really unfiltered and intensemanner and you, as a teacher,
have to manage that.
That's what I did for 15 years,putting aside the subjects I
(23:21):
taught, like the actual realityof a classroom is that's what
you do.
So I learned very quickly tosay, okay, daniel feels this,
and Janice feels this, and Davidfeels this, and Naomi feels
this, and then like that's howyou hold together a classroom of
you seven kids, and so, yeah,it comes very natural to me to
(23:42):
hold space for multiple voices.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
When you were in Jerusalem if I'm not mistaken,
prior to October 7, you wereworking as an interfaith
dialogue facilitator.
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Yes, at Kids for Peace Jerusalem, a program of
Seeds of Peace, where we everysecond Thursday night we bring
together Israeli and Palestiniankids to meet each other in kind
, of like a youth movementenvironment.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Is there something that you have observed and noted
in some ways very disturbingparadox that there you are in
Israel in dialogue withPalestinians and Muslims, so
close to the sort of centrepoint of this confrontation,
(24:28):
this violence.
It's so raw there, and yet Iknow that you have been, you
continue to be and you willalways find others that are
ready and willing to engage in adialogue with you, between Jews
, between Palestinians andMuslims.
And yet here in Australia rightnow, it would be almost
(24:52):
impossible to find a JewishAustralian and a Muslim
Australian leader, religious orotherwise, who are ready and
willing to engage in a dialogue.
It seems that civil dialoguebetween the two sides in this
city and indeed in this countryright now is impossible, and yet
(25:13):
we are so far away from theconflict.
Yeah, so I'm interested in yourthoughts on that.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I'll just maybe challenge one primitive question
.
I think in Australia there is alot of connections between Jews
and Muslims who agree with eachother on everything.
They're on the far left, andthere's also dialogue between
Jews and Muslims on the farright, when they happen to agree
with each other on everything,if they're on the far left and
there's also dialogue betweenJews and Muslims on the far
right when they happen to agreewith each other on everything as
well.
The place where there isn'tdialogue is between, say,
(25:40):
supporters of Israel andsupporters of Palestine, of many
religions, where they don'tagree with each other, and then
it becomes impossible to talknot only about that topic but
about any other topic.
And then it becomes impossibleto talk not only about that
topic but about any other topic.
And what I find fascinating, orvery sad actually, is the fact
that we in Jerusalem have allthe reasons not to talk to one
(26:01):
another because this directlyaffects our lives.
Yet we do, whereas in Australia,when you're tens of thousands
of kilometers away from this andyou don't have those pressures,
it's harder for you to talk,and I think one of the reasons
for that is, I'd say, a lot ofthe people that are in dialogue
in Jerusalem.
We know that there's no otheralternative.
We know that ultimately, thisis our home and if I stay in my
(26:23):
bubble and you stay in yourbubble, that's going to
ultimately cause a lot of deathand destruction for everyone,
whereas I think sometimes inMelbourne people feel like we
have the luxury of not talkingto each other because we can
have security and walls andfences and we can be in our own
echo chambers and if I gothrough my whole day without
(26:45):
talking to someone on the otherside, then I didn't lose
anything.
And I think that wasn't theAustralia that I grew up in.
You know, I grew up in acountry where every second day,
you heard the wordmulticulturalism.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
I don't think we hear that word in Australia.
Now there's this new buzzwordcalled social cohesion.
I don't exactly know what itmeans, but I feel like it came
from some think tank.
But yeah, there's a real crisishere in social cohesion and I
think it goes back to the factthat we are all very good at
debate and advocacy.
I think you know.
(27:21):
I look at the Jewish communityevents, emails and every day
there's how to advocate, how tospeak, how to win a debate, how
to make a point, how to do asocial media meme.
I haven't seen one workshop onhow to dialogue.
Dialogue is a skill, just asadvocacy is a skill.
Dialogue is really hard and youhave to learn a lot about
yourself and you have to bevulnerable and sometimes you cry
(27:43):
and it challenges your beliefs.
But who's teaching dialogue?
And it's the same for thePalestinian side.
There's an immense amount oftime and effort involved in
advocacy.
Understandably so, because theywant the destruction of Gaza to
end, but I don't see anyonesaying maybe dialogue could also
be a tool that could makethings better for us and safer
(28:06):
for us here in Melbourne andSydney.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
I think people are starting to realise that.
In fact, last week, weinterviewed Dr Josh Roos, and
one of the things that stood outto me from that interview was
when he mentioned the fact that,in order to heal or in order to
move forward, one of the thingsthat's going to have to happen
is more outreach.
It's easy enough for someone tosay that who isn't traumatised,
(28:32):
and he acknowledged that.
For someone to say that whoisn't traumatized, and he
acknowledged that.
Do you think that we can moveforward if we continue to stay
in our bubbles?
Speaker 3 (28:40):
I'm going to share a dream, because you know I'm a
dreamer.
If there's any listeners herethat have a million dollars,
this is what I want you to do.
I want you to make an app, andthe app is called Meal by you,
and the way the app works iseveryone in Australia opens a
profile and on the profile sortof a bit like a dating profile,
but there's no sex involved youmaybe that also happens with
(29:03):
some dating profiles as wellactually you put a photo of
yourself and your family andthen you write all of your
biases I like Albo, I like PennyWong, I'm left wing.
I of your biases, I like elbow,I like Penny Wong, I'm left
wing, I'm right wing, I'mstraight, I'm gay, I am a
vegetarian, I'm a Christian, I'ma Jew, et cetera.
And then on the other side, youwrite someone that you want to
(29:26):
meet with that has a differentview for you.
I want to have a meal with aMuslim.
I want to have a meal withsomeone unemployed.
I I want to have a meal with aMuslim.
I want to have a meal withsomeone unemployed.
I want to have a meal withsomeone that lives in rural
Victoria.
I want to have a meal withsomeone who is an immigrant.
I want to have a meal withsomeone who's a refugee.
And then what the app does is itmatches you up with someone
(29:46):
opposite to you and you have tohave two meals one at your house
and one at their house.
Now, the rule is it can't be ina cafe, it has to be in your
houses, because when you have ameal in someone's house, you
learn so much about them.
You see the artwork on theirwalls, or the lack of artwork on
the walls, you see theneighborhood where they live,
you see, maybe, their pets, whatmusic is on in the background,
(30:09):
what the garden looks like, andyou start seeing them, not as
this, like sort of box on a Zoomscreen as we often talk to each
other, but you start seeingthem as a real person.
And then a week later, theycome to your house for a meal
and the same thing happens andthey see, let's say, you're
Jewish.
They see a menorah on yourmantelpiece, like what's a
menorah.
They see a little box on yourdoor what's a mezuzah?
(30:31):
And they see a little box onyour door what's a mezuzah?
And they might eat somehorrible bread and you'll say
this is matzah.
I'm sorry about this you knowand you see each other as a full
person.
And then, I think, imaginesomeone would create this app
and every year in Australia,tens of thousands of people
would be having meals two meals,that's it with someone
different from them.
(30:52):
Then people would go back homeand say you meals, that's it
with someone different from them.
And then people would go backhome and say, you know, I know
people say this stuff all thetime about Afghan refugees or
about Jews or about, you know,the Muslims who come from Sudan
or whatever it is.
But you know, I had a meal withone and this is what happened.
Wouldn't that be amazing forsocial cohesion?
Because now, when we talk aboutsocial cohesion, it's often
(31:13):
framed as, and how to combatanti-Semitism and racism and
these sorts of things.
It's often the sense of we needtougher laws and we need more
walls and we need more fencesand we need more security guards
.
But that only deals with thesymptom.
Security is only helpful whenthere's an attacker on the way
and it stops it.
But I want to stop the hatredin the first place.
I want to stop people doingthat, and I think one of the
(31:35):
main causes of the hatred isdehumanisation, is people not
knowing each other, and so Ithink, just as we're investing
in security and I'm not denyingsecurity is important, obviously
it is we also need to invest indialogue and in bridge building
and an app like the one Isuggested, or another idea,
because I think that's alsoimportant for our safety and for
(32:00):
making us feel more at home inAustralia, which I think is a
really important thing to doright now, as it is in Jerusalem
.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Itai, you're such a dreamer.
That's beautiful and as a cynic, I was like that could also
double up as a murder app.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Well, do you remember ?
A few years ago, someone hadthis crazy idea that anyone
could be a taxi driver?
Any person, any random dude,could be a taxi driver, and I've
been in Australia now for twoweeks.
I've been in a few Ubers and itworks.
And then someone else came upwith a crazy idea that anyone
can be a hotel owner, and nowthere's like 10,000 homes in
(32:38):
Australia in this app calledAirbnb, where everyone rents out
their homes to everyone elseand it kind of works.
Yes, there's a few bad storieswith Uber and Airbnb, but 99% of
people use these apps and havepositive experience.
But, like, hopefully, hopefully, this app will lead to far more
good than bad, and I don'tthink we can let the one or two
(32:58):
people who may abuse this appstop it from doing a lot of good
in Australian society, which issomething that I think it could
.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
The book's coda touches on two influential
figures in your life, and we'vealready mentioned them the late
mark baker, and also your father, reuben, both of whom passed
away prematurely from cancer, asdid, I believe, your uncle.
I sense from you that the book,the work that you're moving
(33:33):
forward with now, is motivatedin part by your own thinking
about mortality and of thefragility of life.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Yes, I know it's very cliche to say one should live
every day as if it's your last,but when you have the family
history of pancreatic cancerthat I have and you live in a
place where I've gone to farmore funerals this year than I
would have wanted to in my wholelife, you really hold on to
every moment of life as beingprecious.
(34:07):
And I every day do so manythings every day music, meetings
, work, work, social, obviously,time with my wife and my kids
and people often ask me how doyou, how do you fit so much into
every day?
And and then you're also on topof social media and that sort of
thing, and I'm like, because Ionly live once and because I'm
lucky that at the moment in mylife I'm I'm young and I'm
(34:30):
healthy and I can communicateclearly, and there's a lot of
stuff I want to do, and I feellike, again, I've been given a
gift that I can communicate, Ithink, to people in ways that
maybe some other people can't,and I want to use that skill to
do good and to give people hopeand to give people comfort, and
(34:51):
that's part of why I wrote thisbook.
It's part of why I wrote thisbook.
It's part of why I made thepodcast with hannah baker.
It's also part of why I writeand why I was a teacher, because
I think, when people sort ofshow the best of themselves to
others, others show the best ofthemselves to you, because the
whole, the whole world operateson that, on that beautiful idea
(35:12):
of which is if you love yourneighbour as yourself, then your
neighbours will love you asthemselves too.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
I met your mother for the first time the other night.
She's such a fan of the Jewishindependent brand she asked for
a T-shirt.
It's wonderful that she couldbe there.
What do you think Reuven wouldhave made of what you've done,
your career, your work as apeace builder, your writing in
this book?
Speaker 3 (35:39):
So Abba was a peacemaker as well.
I think he was very beloved byall of the people who knew him.
He very rarely would gossipabout people.
He was a very kind person and Itry and honor his memory in
what I do.
In fact, when I was packing myclothes for the book launch in
(36:02):
Israel, I have an old sweaterthat he used to wear and I said
to Cam, I really want to wearAbba's sweater, and it was a
sweater from the 1970s and mywife said to me I really get the
sentiment of you wanting to doa book launch with your father's
sweater, but it's really uglyand you can't wear this in front
of 500 people.
So I did it.
(36:22):
I got a nicer shirt that Ibought for the occasion.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
You look very smart the other night.
I should say Thank you.
I like your dress and shirt.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
No, I really thought, well, how else can I carry his
memory without wearing hissweater?
So I put a photo of him and mymother on the screen at the
start of the book launch and Ispoke about him.
And, yeah, I think all of uswant to do things that honor the
people that came before us.
A lot of the book launchactually, I spent probably 10
minutes acknowledging differentpeople in my life that had
(36:50):
helped me write this book.
Book because I think it'simportant that in order to know
where we're going, we need toknow where we came from.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
As TJI's future fashion correspondent, I would
just like to add my two centsand say no disrespect to Calm,
but I think you need to bewearing that vintage sweater in
more of your promo.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
Okay, well, I did bring it with me to Australia,
and so I will try and do atleast one event with a vintage
sweater.
Thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Great.
I want to see it on Instagram.
The name of your book, againItai, is the Holy and the Broken
.
Who would you love to read thebook?
Speaker 3 (37:27):
So I write in the book that the purpose of the
book is to comfort the troubledand trouble the comfortable, and
that's who should read the book.
So people that have found thepast 15 months awful and need
comforting, they should read thebook.
And also people that reallystruggle to see either Israelis
or Palestinians as human beingsand show empathy with them, and
(37:49):
that this book will make themuncomfortable, they should read
it too.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Good answer.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Given the current turn in the space of the last
few weeks.
Where are you finding hope inthe current moment?
Speaker 3 (38:03):
So I just want to explain the difference between a
politician and an educator.
A politician is responsible forhaving answers to short-term
problems that can be implementedtomorrow.
So often people say I feelunsafe, I need economic
prosperity, I need a home, andthe politician says, if you vote
for me, I will do this tomorrowand I will fix your problem.
(38:25):
I am not a politician, I do notwant to be a politician and I
never will be a politician, andI don't have answers for
short-term questions like theones people ask me a lot,
because they're very, verycomplicated things and
thankfully there are very wisepoliticians that I respect and
think tanks that do havesolutions to these.
(38:46):
I'm an educator, which meansthat I mainly work with children
who may only realize the thingsI taught them 20 or 30 years
after I teach them those things.
That's how education works.
You plant seeds and they grow,and so the things that, yeah, if
I look at the short term,obviously there's not a lot to
be optimistic in.
(39:07):
There's a lot of, in the shortterm, very, very awful things
that are happening in the placewhere I live and there's awful
things happening to Australiaand that's very depressing.
But the reason I'm hopeful forthe future is because I know
that by working with childrenand working with education, and
talking about hope and talkingabout a future different, that's
different from our own, there'ssomething to grasp onto that
(39:30):
can hopefully not make tomorrowa repeat of yesterday, but
instead make tomorrow somethingwhere all people shed their land
, their eye, live in equalityand also people in Australia can
go back to again calling thisthe lucky country.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Beautiful.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Isai Flesher.
Congratulations, mazel Tov, onthe release of the Holy and the
Broken.
All listeners should be gettingtheir copy at all good
bookstores.
So great to see you doing yourthing in front of hundreds of
people in Melbourne, Sydney andPerth.
Look forward to anotherconversation live, perhaps in
(40:10):
Jerusalem when we come over anddo a shame to admit in Jerusalem
.
Perhaps again here in Melbourne, wherever it is.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Or perhaps in Lisbon when Itai joins the new
community that I'm setting upthere.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
So, as we say in Arabic Inshallah.
And can you hear a song?
So may it be.
Thank you, so may it be.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Thank you.
That was Itai Flesher,education Director at Kids for
Peace and Jerusalem,correspondent for the Jewish
Independent, and that's it foranother week.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
You've been listening to.
A Shame to Admit with me, tammySussman and Executive Director
of TJI, dr Dashiell Lawrence.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
If you like the podcast, leave a positive review
, tell your people or encourageyour third cousin's cousin to
advertise on the show.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
You can tell us what you're ashamed to admit via the
contact form on the JewishIndependent website or by
emailing ashamed at thejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
As always, thank you for your support and look out
for us next week.
Thank you.
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Karoline Borega married a man of honor – a respected Colorado Springs Police officer. She knew there would be sacrifices to accommodate her husband’s career. But she had no idea that he was using his badge to fool everyone. This season, we expose a man who swore two sacred oaths—one to his badge, one to his bride—and broke them both. We follow Karoline as she questions everything she thought she knew about her partner of over 20 years. And make sure to check out Seasons 1-3 of Betrayal, along with Betrayal Weekly Season 1.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.