March 3, 2025 • 43 mins
Powerhouse Lynda Ben-Menashe is the current president of the NCJWA (National Council Jewish Women Australia) and she joins Dash and Tami in the ATA studio to chat about her origin story, how she combated imposter syndrome and sexism in Jewish organisations, and the painful end to years of interfaith friendships because of October 7th. It’s our International Women’s Day special, and you’ll love it.
Articles aligned with this episode:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/the-sisterhoods-sickening-silence-over-hamass-sexual-atrocities
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/no-longer-cursed-but-not-quite-the-revolution-we-planned
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/shared-table-cooking-for-peace
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in
Australia, the Middle East andthe world at large?
But a little bit ashamed thatyou're barely keeping up to date
.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, you've come to the right place.
I'm Dash Lawrence and, in thispodcast series, your favourite
third cousin, tammy Sussman, andI call on experts and each
other to address all theignorant questions that you
might be too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Join us as we have a good go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast.
Ashamed to Admit, Shame toadmit.
Hello everyone, I'm DashLawrence, Executive Director
here at the Jewish Independent.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
And I'm Tammy XX, chromosome Sussman.
I am woman, hear me roar, orwhatever.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Oh yeah, go on, give me your best roar, then Deep
breath out, go on.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I know I'm supposed to be keeping things upbeat here
, and this is our InternationalWomen's Day special.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
The mental load's getting you down.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I don't know if I'm really feeling it this year.
I'm going to start with a bitof a kvetch.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Okay, go on.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
International Women's Day.
It's commercial and tokenistic.
I'm seeing brands.
I'm seeing companies andorganisations using the day for
marketing purposes, forsuperficial gestures like
cupcakes.
I'm seeing discount codeswithout any real meaningful
commitment to gender equality.
It's like one big PR stunt.
(01:50):
It's disingenuous.
I'm all for celebrating women'sachievements and discussing
gender equality, but to do itfor just one day feels a little
bit performative, like where'sthe ongoing action?
I want to see systematic changedash.
And then there's thatover-emphasis on celebrating
(02:11):
women's achievements.
Sometimes I can feel a littlepatronizing, especially when
people aren't adequatelyaddressing ongoing issues like
wage gaps, the domestic load,mental load, gendered violence
and discrimination, which justsucks, quite frankly.
But I know that my role here isto keep things upbeat and I
(02:34):
don't want listeners to switchoff.
So as well as providing thekvetch of the week, I'm also
going to be a shame to admit.
Hype or ruach girl.
Do you know what a ruach girlis?
Dash.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
It's like an endorser or someone that praises others.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, but it's also like a job.
You can get paid to go to a barabout mitzvah.
You get paid to go and like geteveryone dancing and get the
spirits up.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Ruach girl, that could be a good job for you.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
There he goes again, trying to suggest another job
for me instead of making afull-time role at Jewish
Independent.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
You're great with the vibes, you're positive, you're
funny.
I would hire you to be a Ruachgirl at my son's bar mitzvah.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Cool.
So Dash, here is me being Ruachgirl.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Got work to do.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
For International Women's Day.
Okay, this is what I love aboutit.
It serves as a platform foradvocacy.
It influences policy changes.
It inspires collective actiontowards gender equality.
It brings global attention toissues affecting women, such as
(03:58):
gender inequality, violence andhealth disparities.
Let's keep the Ruach goingwhile we introduce our special
guest for today's episode.
Take it away, dash.
I'm giving you the mic, it'syour turn to speak and I'm not
going to speak over you.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Linda Ben-Menashe is the current president of the
National Council of Jewish WomenAustralia.
She's worked in both Australiaand Israel in education,
publishing and public diplomacy.
Linda served the Jewishcommunity for 12 years, mostly
through the New South WalesJewish Board of Deputies.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
To build social cohesion in the Jewish and wider
communities.
Linda developed programsincluding the we Are All Sydney
Community Leadership Program,the Shared Table Project, the
Women of Diversity Dinner andstudy tours of Israel and
Palestine for mixed groups ofNGOs to examine grassroots peace
(04:57):
building.
Linda is a feminist, a Zionist,an optimist and a realist.
Gentlemen, I really hope youenjoy listening to this podcast
while you clean the kitchentonight.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Linda Ben-Menashe.
Welcome to the Ashamed to Admitstudio.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Thank you very much.
Pleasure to be here, linda.
Are you able to describe forour listeners a little bit about
your early life, growing upJewish and as a woman, I'm
really curious to know whatunique challenges your gender or
your Jewishness presented whileyou were growing up.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Well, I had a very lucky Australian childhood.
I grew up on the North Shore ofSydney.
I was actually born in theinner West, so that gives me a
little bit of street cred.
I was born in Dulwich Hill butwhen I was two, my family, like
many Jewish families, moved fromthe west and the inner west to
the North Shore and I grew up inEast Linfield, which was a
(06:13):
beautiful waspy area.
I went to public schools onlybecause my parents and
grandparents were very keen onthe notion of public schooling
and grandparents were very keenon the notion of public
schooling, on Australianidentity, on being part of the
mainstream and contributing tothe society which had hosted our
community.
So I was this little woggy girlin East Linfield Public School
(06:37):
and then Kalara High School andI didn't look like the other
girls.
So I felt very different andcertainly as a woman, absolutely
outside the you know thestandards of beauty.
My best friend in primaryschool was an Armenian girl,
sort of similarly Waghi, and herdad was born in Jerusalem.
My dad was born in Tel Aviv andso it was.
(06:59):
You know, it was a sort of ashared experience of being
outside the cultural norm, was asort of a shared experience of
being outside the cultural norm.
Yes, I experienced anti-Semitismright through school,
everything from primary schoolcan't have you over to my house
because my mum says you've got ablack heart and you killed
Jesus through to high schoolwhere, you know, by high school
(07:21):
time Jews were about 10%, 15percent of the population of the
school.
I was head girl of my schooland at the same time Bernard
Cohen, who was my classmate thewriter, was the head boy and
that was kind of extraordinarythat these two non-sporty Jewish
kids became head girl and headboy of the school.
(07:41):
But every week we had hate mailin the prefect box.
Hitler didn't kill enough ofyou.
Basically, the day we startedour HSC exams, the whole school
was covered in that kind ofgraffiti.
So you know, what we're seeingtoday is what we had there.
And you know I got beaten up inmy first year of high school.
(08:02):
I was 11, I was the youngest inthe year and this Dutch boy
whose parents had, I assume,some sort of Nazi sympathies, he
literally beat me up in theplayground and back in those
days, you know, there was nosort of reporting it to the
school.
I didn't report it to myparents, god forbid.
So I just told the Jewish boysin my year and they took him
(08:22):
down the back of the toilets andbeat him up and he never did it
again.
But I felt that that level ofantisemitism was kind of par for
the course in Australia.
Australia is a good country,not a racist country per se, but
there's always pockets and itwas character building and I
felt very comfortable as anAustralian Jewish person.
I didn't have a decent Jewisheducation.
(08:45):
As a result, I wasn't at a dayschool, I went to Haida, you
know, did a bat mitzvah in asoulless synagogue and spent the
rest of my young adult liferedressing that lack of Jewish
education and the understandingof what my place was in Jewish
history and stuff.
But as a woman, yeah, I sort offelt very much outside the
(09:08):
mainstream.
You know, blonde, preppy etc.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Linda, we're talking to you today because
International Women's Day iscoming up and you are the
president of the NationalCouncil of Jewish Women
Australia and you're also afeminist and you're someone
who's been working very hardwithin the Jewish community for
a long time to see equality forwomen in all kinds of Jewish
(09:37):
spaces and places.
When was your awakening as afeminist?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
It's kind of an interesting question because I
was born a feminist.
I was born into a feministfamily.
My father was born in Israel.
As I said, no family hereexcept for his mother, but my
mother's family.
I'm fifth generation Australianon that side and the
grandparent generation was ageneration of giants.
They were people who changedthe face of this country.
(10:06):
My grandmother's brother wasthe Supreme Court judge who
introduced abortion law intothis country.
You know, my first cousin, onceremoved, was, you know, his son
, also a Supreme Court judge.
My grandfather was DeputyVice-Chancellor of Macquarie
University, introduced thetutorial system to this country.
(10:26):
Before that it was all top-down.
It was all about democracy,equity, access.
They were Labour voters, theywere focused on liberal values
and feminism was just part ofthe water we drank.
There was no question aboutfeminism.
You know, I grew up in a familywhere Shabbat and Chagim and
everything there was all thispolitical discussion and yelling
(10:48):
around the table and it wasjust half of the course and I
grew up really with sort of noawareness that there was a
struggle to be had, like I was awoman.
I could do whatever I wanted todo.
Education was the pathway toany kind of achievement.
I could go into any field Iwanted.
And it's kind of like when did Ibecome a feminist?
(11:10):
Well, I don't know when Ibecame a feminist.
I literally feel like I wasborn one.
And you know, I mean, I readthe women's room and the older I
got, the more I read about, youknow, feminist history and
ideology and so on, and I justidolized, you know, gloria
Steinemans and the people likethat who today people sort of
think they're the old icons.
But they were.
They were so powerful and Isort of really only felt a
(11:33):
challenge to my feminism much,much later in my life when, you
know, I experienced for thefirst time some of the
inequities and some of themisogyny that feminism had been
developed to counter.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
So you mentioned that you attended an Orthodox shul.
Didn't sound like it was a hugepart of your early life?
Speaker 3 (11:58):
You know, as I said, I did a bat mitzvah.
Well, the bat mitzvah was sucha superficial and meaningless
experience and the boys got todo a bat mitzvah and all of us
girls were equally capableintellectually and in every
other way, of probably doingsomething like that, and in
orthodoxy today, of coursethat's what girls do.
But in those days, you know,there were sort of 12 of us
(12:20):
wearing a blue dress, made ofthe same material but a
different style, standing on thestage, the bimmer stage,
reciting stuff we didn'tunderstand the meaning of, and
so it was.
It was.
That was kind of sad but Ithink wasn't a challenge, but it
was an awakening.
There were two sort of periodsat university when I was
involved with orgers again, youknow I was a girl on the
(12:43):
national executive and I feltimposter syndrome at that time,
and for those people who don'tknow, linda, can you tell us
what AUGUS is?
AUGUS is the Australasian Unionof Jewish Students.
Augus, Okay, and most of thecountries in the world have such
a body, and those people arevery often like me, people who
(13:06):
come from the public schoolsystem, who have spent their
whole lives engaging with thewider world and who are perhaps
a little better equipped to doso from a relationship
perspective.
But we have a deficit often andI certainly did in content and
knowledge, which we have toaddress.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Okay, and they're usually like.
Their HQs are on campuses,university, tertiary campuses.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Yeah, it wasn't until much later in my life I
realised.
I remember sitting in a talkwith David Harris, retiring from
the American Jewish Committee,and him talking about his career
right, and what he had set outto do and wanted to do, and I
thought to myself, if I had hadmore confidence in myself
starting from that time, I couldhave done so much more.
(13:55):
And why didn't I put myselfforward more?
You know, men put themselvesforward whether they're
competent or they're notcompetent.
No shame, no hesitation, right,despite my family upbringing,
when I got into quote unquoteJewish communal life, the men
dominated and so you sort offelt you didn't have the right
to challenge.
(14:16):
I'll also say that anotherinfluence on my development as a
woman and my conception of whata woman is when I moved to
Israel at 21, I'd gone when Iwas 14, to visit my father's
family for the first time.
We'd gone and I was like, oh mygoodness, I grew up among all
these blonde-haired, waspypeople and I got off a plane and
(14:37):
I actually looked like thepeople walking in the streets
and I looked like my aunties andI decided then I would go back
to live there one day and seehow that was to be in the
mainstream rather than aminority.
I had a boyfriend there for thefirst two years that I lived
there and he was from an IraqiJewish background and the gender
(14:58):
constructs in that.
You know, I'm Ashkenazi, I wasvery white.
You know, my mother had livedin England for part of her
childhood.
I thought we were white peopleright, I thought we were English
actually and understandingdifferent roles of women,
different conceptions ofwomanhood, the power of women
through a different lens not thefeminist lens, but a feminine
(15:22):
lens, and I've always felt veryorganically both feminine and a
feminist and I don't see anycontradiction between them.
And that period of my lifereally consolidated my sense
that all of that is possible andthat there are certain powers
women have.
I mean, lots of people talkabout this, but I really
(15:42):
strongly believe that there arecertain powers women have that
are feminine powers that allowus to do a lot more than we
could as men.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
That's so interesting because when you said that you
had this Iraqi boyfriend and youwere exposed to his family, my
impulse was to assume that,because the gender roles were
perhaps more defined, that thewomen had less rights or power.
But what you've just told mecontradicts that.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Tremendous power, actually, and in fact so you
know he was Iraqi and then laterI married a Yemenite, israeli.
But the Yemenite women in myfamily that I married into and
who I'm still very, very closeto, they were unbelievably
powerful, strong matriarchs andvery much challenged the
(16:35):
stereotype we might have in acountry like Australia.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Talk to us more about the point, point when the male
dominance, the patriarchy,really became restrictive and
really started to challenge you.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
So after I got married, my husband he was a
feminist as well and I alwaysworked and we had three children
and I worked through those aswell.
I didn't work in the Jewishcommunity until much later in my
career and I was very happy todo so and I came in in a really
good position, in a good way.
But I think what I saw was,over time, that I went in
(17:14):
literally saying I don't care ifI get the credit or not, I just
want to do the work, I want tosee the work done, and I think
that's a very female and stupidapproach that we take.
And so I did the work and Ididn't get the credit, and all
the women did the work, andsometimes I felt, you know, I
had this image of us that wewere like the people behind the
(17:37):
scenes who were doing the feedinto the earpiece of the man
sitting at the news desk, likethat was how I felt.
Anyway, over time I got moreresentful actually, which I
suppose is natural, which Isuppose is natural.
(18:00):
But I felt that our community isled by many people, many men,
who are feminist in theirconceptions of themselves and
who really do share those values, and I don't know where it
comes from, like the air of theworld that we breathe.
But the ideology and thepractical application don't
necessarily merge, and so you'llhave even young men in communal
(18:23):
leadership who absolutely areand would call themselves
feminists, whose actions reallyare throwbacks to an earlier
time, back to an earlier time.
And there are many things whichare unspoken and unseen
impediments to women taking onthose leadership roles.
(18:44):
It's not like women can't getto those top leadership
positions, but somehow theydon't in numbers.
First of all, I wouldn't saythat our community is a
misogynist community.
I'm saying that there arepockets, there are individuals,
it is not systemic in ourcommunity and you know, I hope
that's what this reflects.
I have never felt that it isparticularly useful to be a
(19:04):
whiner in any context, whetherit's Jews whining about, you
know, jew hatred in Australia orwomen whining about misogyny,
in any context.
I think it's much more powerfulto work from within a system,
to change it, to subvert thesystem, and I think that
relationship building I don'teven use the word advocacy at
(19:24):
all anymore If you want tochange hearts and minds, you
need to engage with people inorder to create relationships in
which you are a trustedpurveyor of ideas, information
etc.
And so that's kind of how I'vetried to work.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Linda, it's funny you use the word wine, which some
feminists of my generation wouldsay well, that's subconscious
misogyny right there, because wewouldn't say that men wine, oh
I would.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
I absolutely would.
A whiny baby plenty of whinybabies out there who are not
female.
No, and I use it about ourcommunity as well we shouldn't
be out there whining.
And I'll tell you an exampleonce from a time when I was an
education manager for the Jewishcommunity and we went to the
board of the Department ofEducation about some quote
(20:16):
unquote anti-Semitism in schoolsback in the day, and I remember
them saying to us they usedthat word.
They said what's amazing aboutyour community is that you come
to us with a problem, you don'tjust whine about it.
You come to us and you bring usa solution, which is what we've
done.
We've said here are all theseharmony programs that we're
developing.
Would you like to be part ofthem?
(20:36):
So I would challenge that.
It's not just women who aredescribed as whiners at all.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
So far.
In our conversation today,you've touched on the role that
you've played for the Jewishcommunity in New South Wales
over many years, working withthe New South Wales Jewish Board
of Deputies.
You were in essentially acommunity-building role, weren't
you working with a variety ofinterfaith groups and
organisations and other ethniccommunities?
(21:08):
That's right, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
It is, and I mean at the Board of Deputies, we sort
of had two categories of work.
One was you did Jews or youdidn't do Jews.
I didn't do Jews, I dideverything outside the Jewish
community.
So, yeah, other ethnic groups,other faith groups, NGOs,
women's groups, etc.
So in a way that impostersyndrome that I first
(21:31):
experienced in August, itcarried into the work at the
board because I got the verystrong message that the
political work was the big boys'work and what I did was the
party planning, and I knew whatI was doing was not the party
planning.
I knew what I was doing wasbuilding relationships that we
then incorporated into ourpolitical work.
(21:53):
The coalitions that we builtvery strategically, very
carefully, were coalitions ofpeople whose values aligned with
ours so that when we eachneeded to support each other in
some field whether it was ananti-racism strategy or anything
else that we could draw onthose relationships.
But you can't just have eventsand there's no connection to the
(22:14):
political work and certainly inmy work.
Now all of that work comestogether.
It's a holistic package and Ireally felt for a really long
time a lot of frustration thatthere seemed to be a division of
labour that was both artificialand stupid.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
As if, like Linda's, the one that looks after the
relationships with the Sikhcommunity and the Muslims and
she organises the lunches andthe dinners and that's you know,
that's a nice to have part ofthe organisation, but it's
actually not fundamental toJewish community.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Yeah, and guess what happened?
Remember that whole Naziswastika legislation that the
community celebrated?
Well, who do you think broughtthe Hindu community A into
relationship with us?
B drafted the beginning of allof that work?
Right, that's political work.
I'd left the board by the timeit got the publicity.
(23:07):
But you know, jeremy Spinnack,the president, and I we worked
together from the very beginningin the community relations
space to work out thosecommunity relationships and
which were important and wherewe put our focus and all of that
stuff.
So you didn't get to the pointwhere you can stand, you know,
with a certificate in front ofthe police minister or the
premier or whatever, without allof the work having happened
(23:29):
beforehand.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
So let's bring the conversation up to the more
recent time, if we can, linda.
October 7th happened and, as weknow from the conversations
that we've had with people likeRalph Ganende on the podcast and
other people that work in theinterfaith area, there has been
(23:51):
a huge amount of damage done tointerfaith relations, to
cross-community dialogue,particularly with Muslim
communities.
I'm wondering, as someone who'sbeen working in this space for
many, many years, what has beenyour experience?
Speaker 3 (24:08):
My experience has been that in a time of war, it
is entirely unrealistic toexpect brutes who have a skin in
the game not to gravitate backto their respective historical
corners and to think that thatwould not happen is very
(24:33):
unrealistic.
If you look at the Jewishcommunity and how we moved,
really as a bloc, we've alwayshad diversity around our
attitudes to Israel and so on,but I think it's fair to say in
all the polling shows that ourcommunity moved back into a deep
position of solidarity withIsrael or the people of Israel.
(24:56):
You take the government ofIsrael out of the equation, take
the quote-unquote politics outof the equation, and our
connection to our tribe isdeeper today than it's ever been
as a community.
To expect that not to happen inthe Muslim community is
ridiculous.
And of course, our communityspent years consciously building
(25:17):
relationships with what weeuphemistically termed groups
where tensions exist, and we dida lot of work which was
meaningful at the time, whichhad potential to impact social
cohesion more widely.
And October 7, or in factOctober 9, was the turning point
(25:43):
in those relationships, in whatshould have been our
expectations of what wouldhappen as well.
I mean, indeed, I had somecolleagues who I had, I thought,
quite deep and long-termrelationships with in the Muslim
community, one woman inparticular, very high-profile
woman, through every single Gazawar.
(26:03):
Until that point we had alwayskept the communication lines
open, we had called each other,we had spoken to each other, we
had expressed empathy to eachother and so on.
You know her family's in Gaza,my family's in Israel, and on
October 8th I actually wrote toher and I said that I prayed
(26:24):
that her family came to no harmin Gaza and she wrote back a
message to me, very somethinganodyne, you know, and we
haven't had another conversationsince then, unlike in previous
years.
Another male Muslim leader who Itrusted implicitly for a number
of years.
I actually called him on aboutOctober 8 and I said, hey, I
(26:48):
hear that there's people drivingaround the Western suburbs of
Sydney like celebrating andfireworks and all that stuff.
Is that true?
And he was like, oh, I don'tknow, linda, and that was the
last time we had a conversation.
And you know, I look at both oftheir socials feeds and they're
just full of really, reallypainful stuff.
At the same time, what's sointeresting is that my
(27:10):
Palestinian friends in theMiddle East you know East
Jerusalem, not citizens ofIsrael.
They are the people I'm intouch with.
I got a message from my closestPalestinian colleague about two
weeks after October 7,expressing her deep shame about
what had happened, and I waslike it's not your shame.
We've met twice in Israel sinceOctober 7, I've been twice and
(27:37):
met twice in Israel sinceOctober 7.
I've been twice and sheactually gave me a piece of
jewellery on our second meeting,like a necklace, this beautiful
necklace.
I said what are you doing?
She was like you are my onlyremaining Jewish friend outside
Israel, in the diasporas.
Like your positions get harder,you're further away.
It's's more abstract.
You can go into polemic on theground in Israel, israel,
(27:58):
palestine.
Like you know, you're realpeople, you know everybody's
suffering and you engage ashumans, and here everything
becomes dehumanized.
And so I think certainly I'vehad so many comments from people
since October 7th oh, look atall that work you did.
It's all wasted work.
It's not wasted work.
It was the right thing to do.
It's the right thing to do.
(28:19):
The Jewish community doesn'tbuild relationships with people
with whom we have tensionsbecause we're trying to achieve
some outcome.
You know which.
If we don't achieve it, oh,it's failed work.
It's right.
We are supposed to have ourhands out.
We have our hands out.
We have our hands out.
We will always have our handsout.
That's what Israel'sDeclaration of Independence
represents as well.
(28:40):
Does it mean our hands arealways going to be met?
No, but I will say that sinceOctober 7, the work that I've
done well, that I did for theBoard of Deputies I was no
longer working for them but theyasked me to come back and
consult.
I did Jews.
I've done Jews since then.
(29:01):
That's what I've been doing andI have, like everybody, I have
recognised that indeed we're ina new phase of Jewish history
and world history and we are apeople apart and we try as much
as we possibly can to be apeople together in the
communities where we live.
But sometimes we are, throughexternal factors, we are a
people apart and that's how itis right now.
And as many relationships as wecan maintain, we do maintain,
(29:22):
and relationships with othergroups hindus and christians and
just sort of general otherpeople that all those other
ethnic groups, like the vastmajority of the relationships,
still stand.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
What do you think about the prospect of rebuilding
those relationships that youmentioned before?
And I'm thinking of those twoindividuals that you said you
trusted?
Implicitly, I feel a sense ofdeep, almost betrayal and a
break of trust.
So, thinking about thoseindividuals, thinking about
others, do you hold any prospectof a resumption of relations,
(29:57):
or is this, just now, ageneration of relations never to
be rebuilt?
Speaker 3 (30:02):
I am an optimist, but I do think there's a
generational rift and unlessthere is concerted work done,
and not just by us, by thesociety at large, the rent
between the Jewish community andthe Muslim community and the
Muslim community and the rest ofthe Australian community is not
(30:23):
going to be repaired.
It's got to be a whole ofsociety effort and I think that
the, in particular, theideological indoctrination of
children and generations that wesee all over the world, has to
be addressed in a verysystematic way.
(30:44):
I mean, this is not the samething.
But if you have a look at whathappened in Saudi Arabia after
9-11, where the government worksout that actually this system
of education, this ideologicalindoctrination which led to, you
know, the majority of thepilots being people who came
from our country and of course,you know us as the monarchy
(31:07):
being the number one target,we've got to do something about
this and they basically ran are-education program for a
generation and they have changedthat society fundamentally.
And I mean, as I say, that'snot the same paradigm as
Australia, but there has to be atop-down and bottom-up,
(31:32):
whole-of-society approach towhat our relationship with the
Muslim community represents asthe tip of the iceberg what our
relationship with the Muslimcommunity represents as the tip
of the iceberg.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Linda, you mentioned that during times of war, it's
unrealistic or naive to notexpect people to side with or
have the most empathy for theirown people.
But what about the people whodon't have skin in the game,
like?
I'm thinking of all the whiteAnglo feminists who've taken a
stance?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
So I think one of the most important frames for
understanding the sort of theethnic part of it is that we
happen to live in thissupposedly post-national,
post-tribal, post-colonial allthe rest of that stuff world,
but human beings are tribal andwe can't get away from that and
(32:23):
the world today actuallyfunctions on a tribal model.
We just call it identitypolitics and it's all so much
more even than a generation ago,about what group, what
identities do you hold, whatgroup do you belong to.
And I think that many in thefeminist community have bought
(32:45):
into a package of tribal beliefs, and one of those tribal
beliefs is a fundamentallyflawed conception of what Jews
are and Israel is, and so thereis a massive amount of hostility
towards Zionist feminists.
That pretty much coincides withthe rise of identity politics.
(33:08):
You know, if you look at whathappened in Women's March, you
know that's 10 years ago, 15years ago, maybe even more the
slow but inexorable expulsion ofZionist feminists from the
feminist movement which theybuilt right.
I mean, you know I was at anexhibition in LA actually a few
(33:28):
weeks ago.
It was about Diane vonFustenberg Holocaust survivor
family.
She becomes, you know, thisincredible designer in America
and there's all these photos ofher with the leading feminists
of American history.
They're all Jews.
Every one of them is a Jew Hisold mate, gloria, gloria Betty
Friedan, you know all of thosepeople Bella Abzug, letty,
(33:50):
cotton Pogrebin they're all Jews.
And so I think that there's beenan incredible sense of betrayal
for Jewish women in thefeminist movement.
You know, when the leaders ofWomen's March stood up with
Louis Farrakhan, one of the mostnotorious anti-Semites in
America, and refused to disavow,you know his anti-Semitism,
(34:10):
like that was the beginning ofthe end for Jewish women in the
feminist movement.
And yeah, I think it's allabout tribalism.
It is deeply, deeplydisappointing.
Again, you know there areindividuals who I can't name,
but there are individual womenin positions of high status in
the feminist communities herewho will reach out or have
(34:31):
reached out or we've reached outto them and had conversations.
They're like totally with you,but we just can like totally
with you, but we just can't sayit publicly.
We just can't say it publicly.
We're getting our instructionsfrom the top, we get, but it is
the lack of moral courage, theabsence of guts to take a stand
morally, and also I mean look atSenator Payman the other day
(34:51):
standing up for the Iranianregime, which stones women to
death for being raped, like thecognitive dissonance is so
profound.
It's like a microcosm of thecognitive dissonance we feel as
Jewish people in the widerprogressive spaces.
It's very disappointing, it'svery distressing and it's insane
(35:13):
yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
First off, mazel Tov, on your election to the
position of President ofNational Council of Jewish Women
Australia.
Firstly, help our listenersunderstand what the organisation
is and what it does.
And now, having spent so manyyears looking out to the Jewish
community, what is on youragenda for your time as leader
(35:38):
of NCJW, which, as far as Iunderstand, has done some work
external to the Jewish communitybut is very much working within
the Jewish community?
Speaker 3 (35:46):
So thank you very much.
It's a really excitingchallenge for me now and it's a
beautiful synthesis of work thatI've done before and work that
I've wanted to do before.
National Council of JewishWomen is actually the oldest
Jewish roof body in Australia.
We're 101 years old.
We were founded before the ECHA, before the Zionist Federation,
(36:06):
before anybody, because youknow, women organise.
And it started as a deeplyrevolutionary feminist
organisation which was chargedwith representing Jewish women
in Australia but helping allwomen, supporting all women in
(36:26):
Australia and families.
And so this revolutionary womanher name was Dr Fanny Redding.
She was an immigrant fromEastern Europe.
She studied medicine beforethere were other women studying
medicine.
It's the 19th century, you know.
She never married.
She became a doctor in King'sCross.
She helped sex workers, shehelped migrants.
She did all this grassroots,incredible, incredible work and
(36:52):
the organisation alwaysresponded to the challenges of
the time.
So when there was a world waron, they were involved in war
work, you know, and supportingsoldiers and supporting refugees
and all that kind of stuff.
And that's what NationalCouncil has always actually done
.
Most people confuse the statebodies with the national body.
So the state bodies still doall of that grassroots work,
that social justice work andreach out to the Jewish
(37:15):
community.
The national body, which nowagain has all the state
presidents on it, the nationalbody is the voice of Jewish
women in the country.
It is a political lobby groupfor the rights of women, of
Jewish women, and for the issuesof the time that are top of
(37:36):
mind for Jewish women inAustralia, and so it evolves
with the times, and so the firstthing we did was a listening
campaign.
We've done two listeningcampaigns actually with
Australian Jewish women, notjust our members, but in general
, to say what's important to youright now, what do you want us
to do and get their input intowhat it is we're going to do.
(37:58):
October 7 galvanised Jewishpeople and certainly Jewish
women across this country, andso there are literally hundreds
of women.
We've restructured, we've goteight committees around our
national board.
We've got the most unbelievablearray of talented women working
together, and I guess my visionis to clearly address the
(38:21):
issues that we need to address,and Jew hatred and the soft
targets that are Jewish women onthe front line of that are, you
know, are a top of mind for us.
So we're empowering them, ofcourse, advocating on behalf of
them, but also to provide amodel for Jewish organisations
of how things can be done alittle bit differently, like
(38:43):
even our org chart.
When I gave it to the designershe said that's not a normal org
chart and I said, well, what doyou mean?
She said, well, there's sort ofno hierarchy.
I'm like that's right.
There are ways of leading as anorganisation that are not just
nominally consultative andcooperative, but really so.
(39:05):
And all the organisations thatwe are affiliate to, including
the ECHA and so on.
Basically we went to them and wesaid we are here.
We are here to amplify your goodwork, we are here to complement
your good work, to here tocomplement your good work to go
places you can't go, don't wantto go, do things that you
haven't done or don't want to.
I mean, for example, yesterdaywe were giving a platform to
(39:29):
diverse jewish women's voices inaustralia, and that means
ethnically diverse, politicallydiverse, etc.
Yesterday we did a socials postwhich called on australian
feminists and other humanitarianorganizations to condemn the
despicable misogyny and cynicalmanipulation of sending the body
(39:49):
of an unidentified palestinianwoman into israel in place of
shiri bivas and called onempathy for both of those
women's families.
Like I don't think there areother Jewish organisations doing
that Like.
We don't feel that there's anyneed to advocate on behalf of
our Jewish community withoutalso being humanist and
(40:12):
inclusive.
So I hope that we will not onlyanswer the needs of Jewish
women in Australia, complementthe work that all the other
Jewish organisations are doing,but also provide kind of a new
model of organisational work andleadership.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
So sounds like you're not doing a lot of party
planning.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
No, there's not an awful lot of party planning, but
we do have really amazingevents.
But we are doing everythingfrom meeting individually with
political leaders not justfemale leaders, obviously
political leaders in theportfolios that are important,
you know, ministers for women,ministers for education,
ministers for multiculturalismin each state, that sort of
(40:51):
thing and we invite along tothose meetings, obviously, the
other organisations, roof bodies, jewish organisations, roof
bodies we Jewish organisations,roof Bodies we are having
engagements, boardroomengagements, salon engagements,
speaking engagements withnon-Jewish women of influence
from sectors you know all thesectors across the country.
We are doing webinars and weare doing events for Jewish
(41:12):
women, but not only for Jewishwomen, and obviously we've got a
media presence which hopefully,is growing by the day, and we
are providing a voice for Jewishwomen, but not only for Jewish
women.
And obviously we've got a mediapresence which, hopefully, is
growing by the day, and we areproviding a voice for Jewish
women in this country.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
She's a force to be reckoned with.
Linda, Great to see that you'rebringing so much energy and new
life and new ideas to anorganisation that has been
around for so long and has donereally good work.
But sometimes it just takes afresh set of eyes to come in and
shake things up a little bit,which sounds like you're very
(41:47):
much doing.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
You know there's no shame in this podcast, even
though it's called A Shame toAdmit so like are you medicating
?
How are you getting through theday.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
No, I'll tell you the truth.
The truth is about 10 years agoI realised that I've actually
just got a lot more energy thanmost people, and while I still
do, I might as well use it andthen.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
I'll be dead.
Okay, Coffee chocolate.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
I don't drink coffee.
Chocolate yes, but I don'tdrink coffee.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Are you contagious?
Because, if so, when can I movein?
Speaker 3 (42:19):
Have.
Are you contagious?
Because?
If so, when can I move?
Speaker 1 (42:21):
in.
I have a hard time getting that.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
No, I know it's a bit weird, but I have to use it.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Yeah, I have a few friends like you.
I'm like a non-practicing alphafemale.
Linda, thank you so much forjoining us for today's episode
of A Shame to Admit.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
Thank you for inviting me.
I thought like only reallyimportant people got invited on,
so I'm kind of shocked and veryvery honoured.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
That's it for another week, friends.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
You've been listening to.
A Shame to Admit with me TammySussman and executive director
of TJI, dr Darshal Lawrence.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
If you like the podcast, it's time to leave a
positive review.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
You can tell us what you're ashamed to admit via the
contact form on the JewishIndependent website.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
As always, comrades, thanks for your support.
Go smash those InternationalWomen's Day cupcakes, all the
patriarchy, and look out for usnext week.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Bye for now.
Thank you.
Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in
Australia, the Middle East andthe world at large?
But a little bit ashamed thatyou're barely keeping up to date
.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, you've come to the right place.
I'm Dash Lawrence and, in thispodcast series, your favourite
third cousin, tammy Sussman, andI call on experts and each
other to address all theignorant questions that you
might be too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Join us as we have a good go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast.
Ashamed to Admit, Shame toadmit.
Hello everyone, I'm DashLawrence, Executive Director
here at the Jewish Independent.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
And I'm Tammy XX, chromosome Sussman.
I am woman, hear me roar, orwhatever.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Oh yeah, go on, give me your best roar, then Deep
breath out, go on.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I know I'm supposed to be keeping things upbeat here
, and this is our InternationalWomen's Day special.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
The mental load's getting you down.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I don't know if I'm really feeling it this year.
I'm going to start with a bitof a kvetch.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Okay, go on.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
International Women's Day.
It's commercial and tokenistic.
I'm seeing brands.
I'm seeing companies andorganisations using the day for
marketing purposes, forsuperficial gestures like
cupcakes.
I'm seeing discount codeswithout any real meaningful
commitment to gender equality.
It's like one big PR stunt.
(01:50):
It's disingenuous.
I'm all for celebrating women'sachievements and discussing
gender equality, but to do itfor just one day feels a little
bit performative, like where'sthe ongoing action?
I want to see systematic changedash.
And then there's thatover-emphasis on celebrating
(02:11):
women's achievements.
Sometimes I can feel a littlepatronizing, especially when
people aren't adequatelyaddressing ongoing issues like
wage gaps, the domestic load,mental load, gendered violence
and discrimination, which justsucks, quite frankly.
But I know that my role here isto keep things upbeat and I
(02:34):
don't want listeners to switchoff.
So as well as providing thekvetch of the week, I'm also
going to be a shame to admit.
Hype or ruach girl.
Do you know what a ruach girlis?
Dash.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
It's like an endorser or someone that praises others.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, but it's also like a job.
You can get paid to go to a barabout mitzvah.
You get paid to go and like geteveryone dancing and get the
spirits up.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Ruach girl, that could be a good job for you.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
There he goes again, trying to suggest another job
for me instead of making afull-time role at Jewish
Independent.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
You're great with the vibes, you're positive, you're
funny.
I would hire you to be a Ruachgirl at my son's bar mitzvah.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Cool.
So Dash, here is me being Ruachgirl.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Got work to do.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
For International Women's Day.
Okay, this is what I love aboutit.
It serves as a platform foradvocacy.
It influences policy changes.
It inspires collective actiontowards gender equality.
It brings global attention toissues affecting women, such as
(03:58):
gender inequality, violence andhealth disparities.
Let's keep the Ruach goingwhile we introduce our special
guest for today's episode.
Take it away, dash.
I'm giving you the mic, it'syour turn to speak and I'm not
going to speak over you.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Linda Ben-Menashe is the current president of the
National Council of Jewish WomenAustralia.
She's worked in both Australiaand Israel in education,
publishing and public diplomacy.
Linda served the Jewishcommunity for 12 years, mostly
through the New South WalesJewish Board of Deputies.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
To build social cohesion in the Jewish and wider
communities.
Linda developed programsincluding the we Are All Sydney
Community Leadership Program,the Shared Table Project, the
Women of Diversity Dinner andstudy tours of Israel and
Palestine for mixed groups ofNGOs to examine grassroots peace
(04:57):
building.
Linda is a feminist, a Zionist,an optimist and a realist.
Gentlemen, I really hope youenjoy listening to this podcast
while you clean the kitchentonight.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Linda Ben-Menashe.
Welcome to the Ashamed to Admitstudio.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Thank you very much.
Pleasure to be here, linda.
Are you able to describe forour listeners a little bit about
your early life, growing upJewish and as a woman, I'm
really curious to know whatunique challenges your gender or
your Jewishness presented whileyou were growing up.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Well, I had a very lucky Australian childhood.
I grew up on the North Shore ofSydney.
I was actually born in theinner West, so that gives me a
little bit of street cred.
I was born in Dulwich Hill butwhen I was two, my family, like
many Jewish families, moved fromthe west and the inner west to
the North Shore and I grew up inEast Linfield, which was a
(06:13):
beautiful waspy area.
I went to public schools onlybecause my parents and
grandparents were very keen onthe notion of public schooling
and grandparents were very keenon the notion of public
schooling, on Australianidentity, on being part of the
mainstream and contributing tothe society which had hosted our
community.
So I was this little woggy girlin East Linfield Public School
(06:37):
and then Kalara High School andI didn't look like the other
girls.
So I felt very different andcertainly as a woman, absolutely
outside the you know thestandards of beauty.
My best friend in primaryschool was an Armenian girl,
sort of similarly Waghi, and herdad was born in Jerusalem.
My dad was born in Tel Aviv andso it was.
(06:59):
You know, it was a sort of ashared experience of being
outside the cultural norm, was asort of a shared experience of
being outside the cultural norm.
Yes, I experienced anti-Semitismright through school,
everything from primary schoolcan't have you over to my house
because my mum says you've got ablack heart and you killed
Jesus through to high schoolwhere, you know, by high school
(07:21):
time Jews were about 10%, 15percent of the population of the
school.
I was head girl of my schooland at the same time Bernard
Cohen, who was my classmate thewriter, was the head boy and
that was kind of extraordinarythat these two non-sporty Jewish
kids became head girl and headboy of the school.
(07:41):
But every week we had hate mailin the prefect box.
Hitler didn't kill enough ofyou.
Basically, the day we startedour HSC exams, the whole school
was covered in that kind ofgraffiti.
So you know, what we're seeingtoday is what we had there.
And you know I got beaten up inmy first year of high school.
(08:02):
I was 11, I was the youngest inthe year and this Dutch boy
whose parents had, I assume,some sort of Nazi sympathies, he
literally beat me up in theplayground and back in those
days, you know, there was nosort of reporting it to the
school.
I didn't report it to myparents, god forbid.
So I just told the Jewish boysin my year and they took him
(08:22):
down the back of the toilets andbeat him up and he never did it
again.
But I felt that that level ofantisemitism was kind of par for
the course in Australia.
Australia is a good country,not a racist country per se, but
there's always pockets and itwas character building and I
felt very comfortable as anAustralian Jewish person.
I didn't have a decent Jewisheducation.
(08:45):
As a result, I wasn't at a dayschool, I went to Haida, you
know, did a bat mitzvah in asoulless synagogue and spent the
rest of my young adult liferedressing that lack of Jewish
education and the understandingof what my place was in Jewish
history and stuff.
But as a woman, yeah, I sort offelt very much outside the
(09:08):
mainstream.
You know, blonde, preppy etc.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Linda, we're talking to you today because
International Women's Day iscoming up and you are the
president of the NationalCouncil of Jewish Women
Australia and you're also afeminist and you're someone
who's been working very hardwithin the Jewish community for
a long time to see equality forwomen in all kinds of Jewish
(09:37):
spaces and places.
When was your awakening as afeminist?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
It's kind of an interesting question because I
was born a feminist.
I was born into a feministfamily.
My father was born in Israel.
As I said, no family hereexcept for his mother, but my
mother's family.
I'm fifth generation Australianon that side and the
grandparent generation was ageneration of giants.
They were people who changedthe face of this country.
(10:06):
My grandmother's brother wasthe Supreme Court judge who
introduced abortion law intothis country.
You know, my first cousin, onceremoved, was, you know, his son
, also a Supreme Court judge.
My grandfather was DeputyVice-Chancellor of Macquarie
University, introduced thetutorial system to this country.
(10:26):
Before that it was all top-down.
It was all about democracy,equity, access.
They were Labour voters, theywere focused on liberal values
and feminism was just part ofthe water we drank.
There was no question aboutfeminism.
You know, I grew up in a familywhere Shabbat and Chagim and
everything there was all thispolitical discussion and yelling
(10:48):
around the table and it wasjust half of the course and I
grew up really with sort of noawareness that there was a
struggle to be had, like I was awoman.
I could do whatever I wanted todo.
Education was the pathway toany kind of achievement.
I could go into any field Iwanted.
And it's kind of like when did Ibecome a feminist?
(11:10):
Well, I don't know when Ibecame a feminist.
I literally feel like I wasborn one.
And you know, I mean, I readthe women's room and the older I
got, the more I read about, youknow, feminist history and
ideology and so on, and I justidolized, you know, gloria
Steinemans and the people likethat who today people sort of
think they're the old icons.
But they were.
They were so powerful and Isort of really only felt a
(11:33):
challenge to my feminism much,much later in my life when, you
know, I experienced for thefirst time some of the
inequities and some of themisogyny that feminism had been
developed to counter.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
So you mentioned that you attended an Orthodox shul.
Didn't sound like it was a hugepart of your early life?
Speaker 3 (11:58):
You know, as I said, I did a bat mitzvah.
Well, the bat mitzvah was sucha superficial and meaningless
experience and the boys got todo a bat mitzvah and all of us
girls were equally capableintellectually and in every
other way, of probably doingsomething like that, and in
orthodoxy today, of coursethat's what girls do.
But in those days, you know,there were sort of 12 of us
(12:20):
wearing a blue dress, made ofthe same material but a
different style, standing on thestage, the bimmer stage,
reciting stuff we didn'tunderstand the meaning of, and
so it was.
It was.
That was kind of sad but Ithink wasn't a challenge, but it
was an awakening.
There were two sort of periodsat university when I was
involved with orgers again, youknow I was a girl on the
(12:43):
national executive and I feltimposter syndrome at that time,
and for those people who don'tknow, linda, can you tell us
what AUGUS is?
AUGUS is the Australasian Unionof Jewish Students.
Augus, Okay, and most of thecountries in the world have such
a body, and those people arevery often like me, people who
(13:06):
come from the public schoolsystem, who have spent their
whole lives engaging with thewider world and who are perhaps
a little better equipped to doso from a relationship
perspective.
But we have a deficit often andI certainly did in content and
knowledge, which we have toaddress.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Okay, and they're usually like.
Their HQs are on campuses,university, tertiary campuses.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Yeah, it wasn't until much later in my life I
realised.
I remember sitting in a talkwith David Harris, retiring from
the American Jewish Committee,and him talking about his career
right, and what he had set outto do and wanted to do, and I
thought to myself, if I had hadmore confidence in myself
starting from that time, I couldhave done so much more.
(13:55):
And why didn't I put myselfforward more?
You know, men put themselvesforward whether they're
competent or they're notcompetent.
No shame, no hesitation, right,despite my family upbringing,
when I got into quote unquoteJewish communal life, the men
dominated and so you sort offelt you didn't have the right
to challenge.
(14:16):
I'll also say that anotherinfluence on my development as a
woman and my conception of whata woman is when I moved to
Israel at 21, I'd gone when Iwas 14, to visit my father's
family for the first time.
We'd gone and I was like, oh mygoodness, I grew up among all
these blonde-haired, waspypeople and I got off a plane and
(14:37):
I actually looked like thepeople walking in the streets
and I looked like my aunties andI decided then I would go back
to live there one day and seehow that was to be in the
mainstream rather than aminority.
I had a boyfriend there for thefirst two years that I lived
there and he was from an IraqiJewish background and the gender
(14:58):
constructs in that.
You know, I'm Ashkenazi, I wasvery white.
You know, my mother had livedin England for part of her
childhood.
I thought we were white peopleright, I thought we were English
actually and understandingdifferent roles of women,
different conceptions ofwomanhood, the power of women
through a different lens not thefeminist lens, but a feminine
(15:22):
lens, and I've always felt veryorganically both feminine and a
feminist and I don't see anycontradiction between them.
And that period of my lifereally consolidated my sense
that all of that is possible andthat there are certain powers
women have.
I mean, lots of people talkabout this, but I really
(15:42):
strongly believe that there arecertain powers women have that
are feminine powers that allowus to do a lot more than we
could as men.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
That's so interesting because when you said that you
had this Iraqi boyfriend and youwere exposed to his family, my
impulse was to assume that,because the gender roles were
perhaps more defined, that thewomen had less rights or power.
But what you've just told mecontradicts that.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Tremendous power, actually, and in fact so you
know he was Iraqi and then laterI married a Yemenite, israeli.
But the Yemenite women in myfamily that I married into and
who I'm still very, very closeto, they were unbelievably
powerful, strong matriarchs andvery much challenged the
(16:35):
stereotype we might have in acountry like Australia.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Talk to us more about the point, point when the male
dominance, the patriarchy,really became restrictive and
really started to challenge you.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
So after I got married, my husband he was a
feminist as well and I alwaysworked and we had three children
and I worked through those aswell.
I didn't work in the Jewishcommunity until much later in my
career and I was very happy todo so and I came in in a really
good position, in a good way.
But I think what I saw was,over time, that I went in
(17:14):
literally saying I don't care ifI get the credit or not, I just
want to do the work, I want tosee the work done, and I think
that's a very female and stupidapproach that we take.
And so I did the work and Ididn't get the credit, and all
the women did the work, andsometimes I felt, you know, I
had this image of us that wewere like the people behind the
(17:37):
scenes who were doing the feedinto the earpiece of the man
sitting at the news desk, likethat was how I felt.
Anyway, over time I got moreresentful actually, which I
suppose is natural, which Isuppose is natural.
(18:00):
But I felt that our community isled by many people, many men,
who are feminist in theirconceptions of themselves and
who really do share those values, and I don't know where it
comes from, like the air of theworld that we breathe.
But the ideology and thepractical application don't
necessarily merge, and so you'llhave even young men in communal
(18:23):
leadership who absolutely areand would call themselves
feminists, whose actions reallyare throwbacks to an earlier
time, back to an earlier time.
And there are many things whichare unspoken and unseen
impediments to women taking onthose leadership roles.
(18:44):
It's not like women can't getto those top leadership
positions, but somehow theydon't in numbers.
First of all, I wouldn't saythat our community is a
misogynist community.
I'm saying that there arepockets, there are individuals,
it is not systemic in ourcommunity and you know, I hope
that's what this reflects.
I have never felt that it isparticularly useful to be a
(19:04):
whiner in any context, whetherit's Jews whining about, you
know, jew hatred in Australia orwomen whining about misogyny,
in any context.
I think it's much more powerfulto work from within a system,
to change it, to subvert thesystem, and I think that
relationship building I don'teven use the word advocacy at
(19:24):
all anymore If you want tochange hearts and minds, you
need to engage with people inorder to create relationships in
which you are a trustedpurveyor of ideas, information
etc.
And so that's kind of how I'vetried to work.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Linda, it's funny you use the word wine, which some
feminists of my generation wouldsay well, that's subconscious
misogyny right there, because wewouldn't say that men wine, oh
I would.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
I absolutely would.
A whiny baby plenty of whinybabies out there who are not
female.
No, and I use it about ourcommunity as well we shouldn't
be out there whining.
And I'll tell you an exampleonce from a time when I was an
education manager for the Jewishcommunity and we went to the
board of the Department ofEducation about some quote
(20:16):
unquote anti-Semitism in schoolsback in the day, and I remember
them saying to us they usedthat word.
They said what's amazing aboutyour community is that you come
to us with a problem, you don'tjust whine about it.
You come to us and you bring usa solution, which is what we've
done.
We've said here are all theseharmony programs that we're
developing.
Would you like to be part ofthem?
(20:36):
So I would challenge that.
It's not just women who aredescribed as whiners at all.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
So far.
In our conversation today,you've touched on the role that
you've played for the Jewishcommunity in New South Wales
over many years, working withthe New South Wales Jewish Board
of Deputies.
You were in essentially acommunity-building role, weren't
you working with a variety ofinterfaith groups and
organisations and other ethniccommunities?
(21:08):
That's right, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
It is, and I mean at the Board of Deputies, we sort
of had two categories of work.
One was you did Jews or youdidn't do Jews.
I didn't do Jews, I dideverything outside the Jewish
community.
So, yeah, other ethnic groups,other faith groups, NGOs,
women's groups, etc.
So in a way that impostersyndrome that I first
(21:31):
experienced in August, itcarried into the work at the
board because I got the verystrong message that the
political work was the big boys'work and what I did was the
party planning, and I knew whatI was doing was not the party
planning.
I knew what I was doing wasbuilding relationships that we
then incorporated into ourpolitical work.
(21:53):
The coalitions that we builtvery strategically, very
carefully, were coalitions ofpeople whose values aligned with
ours so that when we eachneeded to support each other in
some field whether it was ananti-racism strategy or anything
else that we could draw onthose relationships.
But you can't just have eventsand there's no connection to the
(22:14):
political work and certainly inmy work.
Now all of that work comestogether.
It's a holistic package and Ireally felt for a really long
time a lot of frustration thatthere seemed to be a division of
labour that was both artificialand stupid.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
As if, like Linda's, the one that looks after the
relationships with the Sikhcommunity and the Muslims and
she organises the lunches andthe dinners and that's you know,
that's a nice to have part ofthe organisation, but it's
actually not fundamental toJewish community.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
Yeah, and guess what happened?
Remember that whole Naziswastika legislation that the
community celebrated?
Well, who do you think broughtthe Hindu community A into
relationship with us?
B drafted the beginning of allof that work?
Right, that's political work.
I'd left the board by the timeit got the publicity.
(23:07):
But you know, jeremy Spinnack,the president, and I we worked
together from the very beginningin the community relations
space to work out thosecommunity relationships and
which were important and wherewe put our focus and all of that
stuff.
So you didn't get to the pointwhere you can stand, you know,
with a certificate in front ofthe police minister or the
premier or whatever, without allof the work having happened
(23:29):
beforehand.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
So let's bring the conversation up to the more
recent time, if we can, linda.
October 7th happened and, as weknow from the conversations
that we've had with people likeRalph Ganende on the podcast and
other people that work in theinterfaith area, there has been
(23:51):
a huge amount of damage done tointerfaith relations, to
cross-community dialogue,particularly with Muslim
communities.
I'm wondering, as someone who'sbeen working in this space for
many, many years, what has beenyour experience?
Speaker 3 (24:08):
My experience has been that in a time of war, it
is entirely unrealistic toexpect brutes who have a skin in
the game not to gravitate backto their respective historical
corners and to think that thatwould not happen is very
(24:33):
unrealistic.
If you look at the Jewishcommunity and how we moved,
really as a bloc, we've alwayshad diversity around our
attitudes to Israel and so on,but I think it's fair to say in
all the polling shows that ourcommunity moved back into a deep
position of solidarity withIsrael or the people of Israel.
(24:56):
You take the government ofIsrael out of the equation, take
the quote-unquote politics outof the equation, and our
connection to our tribe isdeeper today than it's ever been
as a community.
To expect that not to happen inthe Muslim community is
ridiculous.
And of course, our communityspent years consciously building
(25:17):
relationships with what weeuphemistically termed groups
where tensions exist, and we dida lot of work which was
meaningful at the time, whichhad potential to impact social
cohesion more widely.
And October 7, or in factOctober 9, was the turning point
(25:43):
in those relationships, in whatshould have been our
expectations of what wouldhappen as well.
I mean, indeed, I had somecolleagues who I had, I thought,
quite deep and long-termrelationships with in the Muslim
community, one woman inparticular, very high-profile
woman, through every single Gazawar.
(26:03):
Until that point we had alwayskept the communication lines
open, we had called each other,we had spoken to each other, we
had expressed empathy to eachother and so on.
You know her family's in Gaza,my family's in Israel, and on
October 8th I actually wrote toher and I said that I prayed
(26:24):
that her family came to no harmin Gaza and she wrote back a
message to me, very somethinganodyne, you know, and we
haven't had another conversationsince then, unlike in previous
years.
Another male Muslim leader who Itrusted implicitly for a number
of years.
I actually called him on aboutOctober 8 and I said, hey, I
(26:48):
hear that there's people drivingaround the Western suburbs of
Sydney like celebrating andfireworks and all that stuff.
Is that true?
And he was like, oh, I don'tknow, linda, and that was the
last time we had a conversation.
And you know, I look at both oftheir socials feeds and they're
just full of really, reallypainful stuff.
At the same time, what's sointeresting is that my
(27:10):
Palestinian friends in theMiddle East you know East
Jerusalem, not citizens ofIsrael.
They are the people I'm intouch with.
I got a message from my closestPalestinian colleague about two
weeks after October 7,expressing her deep shame about
what had happened, and I waslike it's not your shame.
We've met twice in Israel sinceOctober 7, I've been twice and
(27:37):
met twice in Israel sinceOctober 7.
I've been twice and sheactually gave me a piece of
jewellery on our second meeting,like a necklace, this beautiful
necklace.
I said what are you doing?
She was like you are my onlyremaining Jewish friend outside
Israel, in the diasporas.
Like your positions get harder,you're further away.
It's's more abstract.
You can go into polemic on theground in Israel, israel,
(27:58):
palestine.
Like you know, you're realpeople, you know everybody's
suffering and you engage ashumans, and here everything
becomes dehumanized.
And so I think certainly I'vehad so many comments from people
since October 7th oh, look atall that work you did.
It's all wasted work.
It's not wasted work.
It was the right thing to do.
It's the right thing to do.
(28:19):
The Jewish community doesn'tbuild relationships with people
with whom we have tensionsbecause we're trying to achieve
some outcome.
You know which.
If we don't achieve it, oh,it's failed work.
It's right.
We are supposed to have ourhands out.
We have our hands out.
We have our hands out.
We will always have our handsout.
That's what Israel'sDeclaration of Independence
represents as well.
(28:40):
Does it mean our hands arealways going to be met?
No, but I will say that sinceOctober 7, the work that I've
done well, that I did for theBoard of Deputies I was no
longer working for them but theyasked me to come back and
consult.
I did Jews.
I've done Jews since then.
(29:01):
That's what I've been doing andI have, like everybody, I have
recognised that indeed we're ina new phase of Jewish history
and world history and we are apeople apart and we try as much
as we possibly can to be apeople together in the
communities where we live.
But sometimes we are, throughexternal factors, we are a
people apart and that's how itis right now.
And as many relationships as wecan maintain, we do maintain,
(29:22):
and relationships with othergroups hindus and christians and
just sort of general otherpeople that all those other
ethnic groups, like the vastmajority of the relationships,
still stand.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
What do you think about the prospect of rebuilding
those relationships that youmentioned before?
And I'm thinking of those twoindividuals that you said you
trusted?
Implicitly, I feel a sense ofdeep, almost betrayal and a
break of trust.
So, thinking about thoseindividuals, thinking about
others, do you hold any prospectof a resumption of relations,
(29:57):
or is this, just now, ageneration of relations never to
be rebuilt?
Speaker 3 (30:02):
I am an optimist, but I do think there's a
generational rift and unlessthere is concerted work done,
and not just by us, by thesociety at large, the rent
between the Jewish community andthe Muslim community and the
Muslim community and the rest ofthe Australian community is not
(30:23):
going to be repaired.
It's got to be a whole ofsociety effort and I think that
the, in particular, theideological indoctrination of
children and generations that wesee all over the world, has to
be addressed in a verysystematic way.
(30:44):
I mean, this is not the samething.
But if you have a look at whathappened in Saudi Arabia after
9-11, where the government worksout that actually this system
of education, this ideologicalindoctrination which led to, you
know, the majority of thepilots being people who came
from our country and of course,you know us as the monarchy
(31:07):
being the number one target,we've got to do something about
this and they basically ran are-education program for a
generation and they have changedthat society fundamentally.
And I mean, as I say, that'snot the same paradigm as
Australia, but there has to be atop-down and bottom-up,
(31:32):
whole-of-society approach towhat our relationship with the
Muslim community represents asthe tip of the iceberg what our
relationship with the Muslimcommunity represents as the tip
of the iceberg.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Linda, you mentioned that during times of war, it's
unrealistic or naive to notexpect people to side with or
have the most empathy for theirown people.
But what about the people whodon't have skin in the game,
like?
I'm thinking of all the whiteAnglo feminists who've taken a
stance?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
So I think one of the most important frames for
understanding the sort of theethnic part of it is that we
happen to live in thissupposedly post-national,
post-tribal, post-colonial allthe rest of that stuff world,
but human beings are tribal andwe can't get away from that and
(32:23):
the world today actuallyfunctions on a tribal model.
We just call it identitypolitics and it's all so much
more even than a generation ago,about what group, what
identities do you hold, whatgroup do you belong to.
And I think that many in thefeminist community have bought
(32:45):
into a package of tribal beliefs, and one of those tribal
beliefs is a fundamentallyflawed conception of what Jews
are and Israel is, and so thereis a massive amount of hostility
towards Zionist feminists.
That pretty much coincides withthe rise of identity politics.
(33:08):
You know, if you look at whathappened in Women's March, you
know that's 10 years ago, 15years ago, maybe even more the
slow but inexorable expulsion ofZionist feminists from the
feminist movement which theybuilt right.
I mean, you know I was at anexhibition in LA actually a few
(33:28):
weeks ago.
It was about Diane vonFustenberg Holocaust survivor
family.
She becomes, you know, thisincredible designer in America
and there's all these photos ofher with the leading feminists
of American history.
They're all Jews.
Every one of them is a Jew Hisold mate, gloria, gloria Betty
Friedan, you know all of thosepeople Bella Abzug, letty,
(33:50):
cotton Pogrebin they're all Jews.
And so I think that there's beenan incredible sense of betrayal
for Jewish women in thefeminist movement.
You know, when the leaders ofWomen's March stood up with
Louis Farrakhan, one of the mostnotorious anti-Semites in
America, and refused to disavow,you know his anti-Semitism,
(34:10):
like that was the beginning ofthe end for Jewish women in the
feminist movement.
And yeah, I think it's allabout tribalism.
It is deeply, deeplydisappointing.
Again, you know there areindividuals who I can't name,
but there are individual womenin positions of high status in
the feminist communities herewho will reach out or have
(34:31):
reached out or we've reached outto them and had conversations.
They're like totally with you,but we just can like totally
with you, but we just can't sayit publicly.
We just can't say it publicly.
We're getting our instructionsfrom the top, we get, but it is
the lack of moral courage, theabsence of guts to take a stand
morally, and also I mean look atSenator Payman the other day
(34:51):
standing up for the Iranianregime, which stones women to
death for being raped, like thecognitive dissonance is so
profound.
It's like a microcosm of thecognitive dissonance we feel as
Jewish people in the widerprogressive spaces.
It's very disappointing, it'svery distressing and it's insane
(35:13):
yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
First off, mazel Tov, on your election to the
position of President ofNational Council of Jewish Women
Australia.
Firstly, help our listenersunderstand what the organisation
is and what it does.
And now, having spent so manyyears looking out to the Jewish
community, what is on youragenda for your time as leader
(35:38):
of NCJW, which, as far as Iunderstand, has done some work
external to the Jewish communitybut is very much working within
the Jewish community?
Speaker 3 (35:46):
So thank you very much.
It's a really excitingchallenge for me now and it's a
beautiful synthesis of work thatI've done before and work that
I've wanted to do before.
National Council of JewishWomen is actually the oldest
Jewish roof body in Australia.
We're 101 years old.
We were founded before the ECHA, before the Zionist Federation,
(36:06):
before anybody, because youknow, women organise.
And it started as a deeplyrevolutionary feminist
organisation which was chargedwith representing Jewish women
in Australia but helping allwomen, supporting all women in
(36:26):
Australia and families.
And so this revolutionary womanher name was Dr Fanny Redding.
She was an immigrant fromEastern Europe.
She studied medicine beforethere were other women studying
medicine.
It's the 19th century, you know.
She never married.
She became a doctor in King'sCross.
She helped sex workers, shehelped migrants.
She did all this grassroots,incredible, incredible work and
(36:52):
the organisation alwaysresponded to the challenges of
the time.
So when there was a world waron, they were involved in war
work, you know, and supportingsoldiers and supporting refugees
and all that kind of stuff.
And that's what NationalCouncil has always actually done
.
Most people confuse the statebodies with the national body.
So the state bodies still doall of that grassroots work,
that social justice work andreach out to the Jewish
(37:15):
community.
The national body, which nowagain has all the state
presidents on it, the nationalbody is the voice of Jewish
women in the country.
It is a political lobby groupfor the rights of women, of
Jewish women, and for the issuesof the time that are top of
(37:36):
mind for Jewish women inAustralia, and so it evolves
with the times, and so the firstthing we did was a listening
campaign.
We've done two listeningcampaigns actually with
Australian Jewish women, notjust our members, but in general
, to say what's important to youright now, what do you want us
to do and get their input intowhat it is we're going to do.
(37:58):
October 7 galvanised Jewishpeople and certainly Jewish
women across this country, andso there are literally hundreds
of women.
We've restructured, we've goteight committees around our
national board.
We've got the most unbelievablearray of talented women working
together, and I guess my visionis to clearly address the
(38:21):
issues that we need to address,and Jew hatred and the soft
targets that are Jewish women onthe front line of that are, you
know, are a top of mind for us.
So we're empowering them, ofcourse, advocating on behalf of
them, but also to provide amodel for Jewish organisations
of how things can be done alittle bit differently, like
(38:43):
even our org chart.
When I gave it to the designershe said that's not a normal org
chart and I said, well, what doyou mean?
She said, well, there's sort ofno hierarchy.
I'm like that's right.
There are ways of leading as anorganisation that are not just
nominally consultative andcooperative, but really so.
(39:05):
And all the organisations thatwe are affiliate to, including
the ECHA and so on.
Basically we went to them and wesaid we are here.
We are here to amplify your goodwork, we are here to complement
your good work, to here tocomplement your good work to go
places you can't go, don't wantto go, do things that you
haven't done or don't want to.
I mean, for example, yesterdaywe were giving a platform to
(39:29):
diverse jewish women's voices inaustralia, and that means
ethnically diverse, politicallydiverse, etc.
Yesterday we did a socials postwhich called on australian
feminists and other humanitarianorganizations to condemn the
despicable misogyny and cynicalmanipulation of sending the body
(39:49):
of an unidentified palestinianwoman into israel in place of
shiri bivas and called onempathy for both of those
women's families.
Like I don't think there areother Jewish organisations doing
that Like.
We don't feel that there's anyneed to advocate on behalf of
our Jewish community withoutalso being humanist and
(40:12):
inclusive.
So I hope that we will not onlyanswer the needs of Jewish
women in Australia, complementthe work that all the other
Jewish organisations are doing,but also provide kind of a new
model of organisational work andleadership.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
So sounds like you're not doing a lot of party
planning.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
No, there's not an awful lot of party planning, but
we do have really amazingevents.
But we are doing everythingfrom meeting individually with
political leaders not justfemale leaders, obviously
political leaders in theportfolios that are important,
you know, ministers for women,ministers for education,
ministers for multiculturalismin each state, that sort of
(40:51):
thing and we invite along tothose meetings, obviously, the
other organisations, roof bodies, jewish organisations, roof
bodies we Jewish organisations,roof Bodies we are having
engagements, boardroomengagements, salon engagements,
speaking engagements withnon-Jewish women of influence
from sectors you know all thesectors across the country.
We are doing webinars and weare doing events for Jewish
(41:12):
women, but not only for Jewishwomen, and obviously we've got a
media presence which hopefully,is growing by the day, and we
are providing a voice for Jewishwomen, but not only for Jewish
women.
And obviously we've got a mediapresence which, hopefully, is
growing by the day, and we areproviding a voice for Jewish
women in this country.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
She's a force to be reckoned with.
Linda, Great to see that you'rebringing so much energy and new
life and new ideas to anorganisation that has been
around for so long and has donereally good work.
But sometimes it just takes afresh set of eyes to come in and
shake things up a little bit,which sounds like you're very
(41:47):
much doing.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
You know there's no shame in this podcast, even
though it's called A Shame toAdmit so like are you medicating
?
How are you getting through theday.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
No, I'll tell you the truth.
The truth is about 10 years agoI realised that I've actually
just got a lot more energy thanmost people, and while I still
do, I might as well use it andthen.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
I'll be dead.
Okay, Coffee chocolate.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
I don't drink coffee.
Chocolate yes, but I don'tdrink coffee.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Are you contagious?
Because, if so, when can I movein?
Speaker 3 (42:19):
Have.
Are you contagious?
Because?
If so, when can I move?
Speaker 1 (42:21):
in.
I have a hard time getting that.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
No, I know it's a bit weird, but I have to use it.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Yeah, I have a few friends like you.
I'm like a non-practicing alphafemale.
Linda, thank you so much forjoining us for today's episode
of A Shame to Admit.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
Thank you for inviting me.
I thought like only reallyimportant people got invited on,
so I'm kind of shocked and veryvery honoured.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
That's it for another week, friends.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
You've been listening to.
A Shame to Admit with me TammySussman and executive director
of TJI, dr Darshal Lawrence.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
If you like the podcast, it's time to leave a
positive review.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
You can tell us what you're ashamed to admit via the
contact form on the JewishIndependent website.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
As always, comrades, thanks for your support.
Go smash those InternationalWomen's Day cupcakes, all the
patriarchy, and look out for usnext week.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Bye for now.
Thank you.
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