March 24, 2025 • 46 mins
In his third book, The Jews: An Indigenous People, author and advocate Ben M Freeman argues that to fully embrace Jewish indigeneity and reject the non-Jewish world’s attempt to impose its thinking upon us, the Jewish people must re-examine the idea that Judaism is a religion. Tami and Dash have some follow-up questions, and in this episode of ATA, Ben M Freeman answers them.
Articles relevant to this episode:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/the-pomegranate-proof-jews-as-an-indigenous-people
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/we-need-to-stop-thinking-of-judaism-as-a-religion
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in
Australia, the Middle East andthe world at large, but
struggling to keep up with thenews cycle, Well, you have
possibly come to the right place.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I'm Dash Lawrence and , in this podcast series, your
crazy third cousin, tammySwissussman, and I call on
experts and each other toaddress all of those ignorant
questions that you've been tooashamed to ask.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Join us as we have a good go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast.
Ashamed to Admit to the JewishIndependent.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Podcast.
A Shame to Admit Dash.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Tammy, Tammy, Sussman hello.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Tell everyone what you do at the Jewish Independent
.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I am the Executive Director.
Why don't you tell thelisteners what you do at the
Jewish Independent Tammy?
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I freelance for the Jewish Independent.
I write articles, I make thispodcast.
I constantly ask you to make mea full-time role.
You haven't.
I keep coming up with newpotential job titles.
Comedy Saar was one of them.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Fashion.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Correspondent.
That was your latest.
I also come to events hosted byTJI and make awkward small talk
.
I might just walk right up tosomeone who looks important and
just say hey, do you likecarbohydrates?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
You clear the table of the gluten-free celiac I do
appetizers.
I've seen you in action youpoke people with your skewers I
do love carbs.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Do you love carbs dash?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
of course I'm a marathon runner.
I need to be carb loading allthe time he had to throw that in
there couldn't possibly performat my optimum unless I was carb
loading.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
What's your favorite carb?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Oh, I do love a good slice of sourdough bread.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
How do you feel about pasta?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Love pasta.
Had several bowls of pasta lastnight, in fact, delicious.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
What type of pasta did you have last night, Dash?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I think it was spaghetti.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I love spaghetti.
Spaghetti is my favourite typeof pasta.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Look, it's probably our go-to in the house.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Okay, so I've now concluded that you are a fan of
spaghetti.
Are you also a fan of frivolity?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Oh well, I sit down and talk to you every week.
So clearly I am.
We're a sucker for punishment.
Not sure which one, but acombination of both, probably.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
All right.
So you're a fan of spaghettiand you love frivolity, so I
think you would be a goodcandidate to be a member of the
Church of the Flying SpaghettiMonster.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Oh yeah, yep.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Do you know what their religion is called?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Do I know what their religion is called?
Yeah, it's kind of like a sortof a mock religion.
It's a parody.
It's an attempt to poke fun atreligions, isn't it?
Well, it started that way.
It's an attempt to poke fun atreligions, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Well, it started that way.
They refer to themselves aspastafarian.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Ah, that's right.
Yes, yes, very clever, and I dolove a pun, so I'm a
pastafarian for sure.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
She's looking at me like where is she going with
this, when are you going with it?
What I'm trying to do is make alink between pastor theory and
religion and what constitutes areligion.
That was one of my worst.
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Let's have one more go at doing this.
So, tammy, you're like aninteresting case study in being
Jewish, right, because you grewup in a Jewish milieu, you went
to Jewish day school.
You have had, and still have, alot of Jewish friends.
You identify very much asJewish, but I don't hear you
(04:15):
often talking a lot about God orabout faith or about Judaism.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Thank you so much for guiding this conversation into
the direction that it needed togo in.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
And this is a thing that I've recognised in a lot of
my Jewish friends, a lot ofpeople particularly of your
generation, but I think it goesback centuries.
There have always been Jewsthat maybe they appreciate and
they celebrate certain religiousrituals and festivals, but
there's a whole other big partof what makes them Jewish that
(04:50):
has nothing to do with faith andwith religion.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
I think I've even said on thispodcast before that among my
Jewish friends I am the mostnon-practicing Jew out of those
people and yet I am the mostJew-y, like I'm constantly
engaging in Jewish discussionand thought and writing, you
(05:19):
know, kind of oozes out of mypores and yet I am the least
observant in that context.
So you've hit the nail on thehead.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
And by some people's standards that makes you perhaps
less Jewish because you don'tkeep a kosher household.
You might be quote unquote abad Jew when it comes to keeping
Jewish religious law.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
No need to rub it in.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
I'm pointing out here a kind of a problem, which is
how could you, someone who is, Iconsider and you also identify
in this way a very Jewish personbe?
You know, if we just thinkabout Jewish identity through
the prism of religion, then I'msorry to say, but there's not a
whole lot that I can identify inyou.
But if we have a much moreexpansive notion of what it is
(06:12):
to be Jewish, you're a 99.9%Jewish.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah, 100%.
That is why I found today'sconversation with Ben M Freeman
so validating.
I can't wait for our listenersto hear this whether you
identify as a religious Jew or acultural Jew, or a culinary Jew
or just a comically affiliatedJew, you'll gain something from
(06:42):
this conversation.
Ate a Jew you'll gain somethingfrom this conversation I forgot
to mention.
If you're a Jewish convert, ifyou're Jew adjacent, if you love
a Jew and not in a weird waylike hey, I love me a Jew, but
like you genuinely have someonein your life who is Jewish and
you love them, you'll lovetoday's conversation.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Our guest today.
Scottish Jewish educator,writer, thinker, ben M Freeman
has been wrestling with some ofthese questions in recent years.
Ben is the author of threebooks.
His latest book is the Jews andIndigenous People and in this
(07:23):
book Ben makes the provocativecase that we need to stop
thinking of Judaism as areligion, that the idea of
Judaism as a world religion isactually a relatively new and
externally imposed concept.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Ben M Freeman is a Jewish and gay thought leader
and educator.
Born in Scotland, Ben is alsoan internationally renowned
author and diversity, equity andinclusion specialist, focusing
on Jewish identity and raisingawareness of the Holocaust.
He came to prominence duringthe Corbyn-Labour Jew hate
crisis and quickly became one ofhis generation's leading voices
(08:02):
against anti-Jewish racism.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Ben is the founder of the modern Jewish Pride
movement and the author of theJewish Pride Manifesto Jewish
Pride Rebuilding a People.
His book the Jews andIndigenous People was published
in February 2025.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Here's Ben M Freeman.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Ben, you're the first Scottish Jew that we've had on
A Shame to Admit.
To begin the conversation today.
Tell us a little bit about theScottish Jewish community that
you grew up in, and I'mparticularly interested in how
it shaped your particular Jewishidentity.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Well, first of all, thank you for having me, and
it's really not a surprise.
I'm the first Scottish Jew tobe unashamed to admit, because
there's not that many of us.
So when I grew up, there wasabout 5,000 Jews in the whole
country, so there were 5 millionpeople in Scotland, so 5,000 in
the whole country, and we had areal sense that we were a
minority because of that.
But I will say that there wasno value attributed to our
(09:16):
minority status.
We just were a minority, right,and we could look at other kids
in the non-Jewish high schoolswe went to and we could look at
the Pakistani kids or theScottish kids or the Nigerian
kids, and we were all justbelonging to our distinct
communities I mentioned.
I went to a non-Jewish highschool because there is one
Jewish school in the wholecountry and it's an elementary
(09:36):
school, a primary school.
So I went there for nursery,kindergarten and then primary
slash, elementary, and then,when it came time to go to high
school, I had to go to anon-Jewish high school.
But the community was small butmighty, incredibly strong,
incredibly proud, incrediblyZionist, and there were many,
many activities for young Jewsand it really, to be honest, it
(09:58):
was cool to be involved in thecommunity.
You know, my friends and I, mypeers from my primary school, we
would reunite at the Jewishyouth movements and the Jewish
communal events.
So it really was kind of anamazing place to grow up, to be
honest, and my oldest friendswho I'm friends with still to
this day are people I met inkindergarten or nursery.
So it really was an amazingplace and I do think that that
(10:19):
understanding that we were aminority helped me understand
that we have to work for ourJewishness.
And I think you know I'm in LosAngeles right now and I travel a
lot for my work to speak, and Ithink that is a really
important lesson that we shouldnever take our Jewishness for
granted.
We should always be activeparticipants in it, and that was
a real lesson that I learned.
And also to speak up and to beproud and to own your own
(10:42):
identity, particularly whenyou're aware of being a minority
, and I also think that'simportant.
We are a minority.
There's like 15, 16 millionJews in the world and yes, there
are some Jewish communities,like maybe New York, and they
feel that they're the majoritybecause the Jewish culture is
very strong or because there'smany, many Jews, but it's like
they're still a minority and Ican see when I speak in America,
(11:04):
their eyes get really big whenI say you guys are a minority,
because they know it but theydon't really internalize it and
understand it.
And I think it's reallyimportant and, again, we don't
need to attribute value to it,it's just an understanding that
we're a distinct pride and inyour debut book, jewish Pride
Rebuilding a People.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
You explore this notion of Jewish pride as an
important response toanti-Semitism.
Are you able to tell ourlisteners how you personally
distinguish this approach fromother frameworks for addressing
discrimination?
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I want my work to always hit the bullseye right.
You don't want to be speakingaround an issue and I think even
having the language of Jewishpride is quite different.
It's quite different fromsaying we are empowered Jews.
I even think it's differentfrom saying we're Jewish and
proud.
We're creating a standalonemovement and it was inspired by
my experience with LGBTQ pluspride.
(12:08):
Right, I'm also a proud gay manand I think that's the
difference.
You know, you can be gay andproud, but that's different from
the gay pride movement.
And again, that's what I'mtrying to build, or have been
trying to build a movement thatwill educate, inspire and
empower Jews and listen.
Of course, there's echoes ofstanding up for yourself, of
knowing who you are.
You know those are not distinctnecessarily to the Jewish pride
(12:31):
movement.
I think that owning thatlanguage is important and
actually, since October 7th, itis a response to Jew hatred.
But I also think it's somethingmore than just a response.
It's a reclamation and I thinkthat's also maybe sets it apart.
It's about finding the Jewishjoy, the Jewish beauty.
It's about owning our ownidentity, not allowing ourselves
to be defined by the worldaround us or by how they treat
(12:53):
us, and I think that's the kindof interesting thing
post-October 7th.
You know, there are many Jewswho have maybe come back to
their Jewish identity or whofeel it has grown in some way,
and I think with that we have anopportunity entity, or who feel
it has grown in some way and Ithink with that we have an
opportunity.
Out of the tragedy comes perhapsthis opportunity and it's to
turn that relationship rooted in, maybe, october 7th into
(13:14):
something positive, into anunderstanding of what it means
to be a Jew, into a Jewishunderstanding of what it means
to be a Jew, into anunderstanding of Jewish
civilization, jewish indigeneity, jewish pride.
Because I think in the diaspora, because of Western
universalism, there are Jews whoget nervous about that, who get
nervous about saying you know,I'm a distinct Jewish person,
I'm different, my priority isthe Jewish people, my land is
(13:37):
Israel People.
The world often tries to makeus choose, so I think in
response to that, there arealways Jews who say no and this
is just our version of it.
But I was absolutely inspiredby my experience with LGBTQ plus
pride.
I wouldn't have been able towrite these books if I hadn't
already gone through the journeyto become a proud gay person.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
But also what was dissatisfactory about the
frameworks that you were givenin your earlier life, in your
Jewish education, because youdescribed a community that was
small but mighty.
So clearly there was a sense ofpride within that Jewish
community in Glasgow, I believe,which is where you were raised
but clearly there was also afeeling for you that something
(14:18):
wasn't quite right about the waythat Jews inhabited their
Jewishness publicly.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
I think that we do not have conversations about our
identity enough.
We do empower Jews I wasbrought up as a very proud Jew
but I don't think there are theconversations that we see in
other communities.
An example of this isinternalized anti-Jewishness
right, the idea of internalizedantisemitism, kind of commonly
referred to as self-hate,although I don't really like
that language.
That was my second book and itwas one of the first books in a
(14:47):
century on the topic whereas theLGBTQ plus community, the black
community, other communitieshave regular, ongoing
conversations, because prideisn't just about happy, positive
feelings.
It's really an investigationinto your identity and asking
the question how do I feel aboutmy Jewishness, how do I take up
the space, how do I navigatethe world?
(15:08):
It's a dialogue, and it's adialogue that we have as
individuals and as a collective,and it's not always easy,
because you have to be honestwith yourself and ask
challenging questions, and I wasnever encouraged to do that.
I wasn't discouraged, of course, but that was just not the
language.
We were empowered, of course,we were educated, but I don't
think it was the bullseye, Idon't think that they named it,
(15:31):
it was not a movement, it justwas okay.
We were just Jews.
We were happy and proud ofourselves, but I wanted to try
and build a movement that wouldempower us to go on this journey
of self-discovery so we canmove through the journey of
pride.
Because that's what I had to doas a gay person right, it
wasn't just that you decide.
Okay, I'm proud.
Wonderful, I've read the bookabout Harvey Milk.
I'm good to go.
(15:52):
No, it was work and I had toundo huge amounts of programming
that I had internalized fromthe world around me, and I still
stand by the fact that wedefinitely have got better with
regards to the conversation onJewish identity, but we're still
not there.
I think there should beconstantly an ongoing
conversation about ourexperience as Jews in the world,
(16:12):
and not just from a.
How are we experiencing Jewhatred?
Right, what is it like to be anAustralian Jew or a British Jew
?
Because a lot of thoseconversations actually focus on
the outside world.
What is done to us?
We should be having a dialogueabout how these experiences
impact us, how they impact usemotionally, psychologically,
how experiences impact us.
How they impact us emotionally,psychologically, how they make
(16:33):
us feel a better Jewishness, howthey make us feel that we're
able or not to move through theworld.
So that's what pride is.
It's not always comfortable oreasy to be questioning yourself
and say, well, how do I reallyfeel about this?
And I had to do that.
And as an example, you know mybrother was in the IDF for a
decade.
He's made Aliyah, my sister'smade Aliyah.
We were brought up, as I said,very Zionist.
I was still saying to peoplewhile working for a Jewish
(16:53):
organization I'm Jewish but orI'm Zionist but because what I
was really trying to do was showmy non-Jewish peers that I was
saying this to that I was a goodJew inverted commas that I was
a Jew but I wasn't so differentand I had to engage with that,
and that isn't alwayscomfortable.
But the thing I say when we goon this introspective journey as
a collective and as individuals, is that we've done nothing
(17:16):
wrong, even if we have, at times, not necessarily respected our
Jewishness or treated it with,you know, with the respect that
it's due.
We're a minority navigating aworld which is often very
hostile and very difficult.
It it's really an investigationinto identity.
And the last thing I will sayis you know, in each of my books
I interview individual Jews,because the books are about
(17:38):
identity, and I want to see howthese ideas interact with lived
experience, because we're realpeople and that's the most
important.
How do we take people on thisjourney in a tangible way which
educates, inspires and empowersthem, makes them feel able to
have this conversation, but doit without?
Speaker 2 (17:58):
shame and with empathy for themselves on
reflection, as historians lookat as the peak point of
diversity, equity and inclusion,which is a space that you've
worked in for a number of yearsas an educator and in some ways
(18:25):
I regard and correct me if I'mwrong your thinking to have been
framed around and influenced bythat thinking.
So I've got a follow-upquestion.
But before I get to thatquestion because this show is
all about helping people removetheir shame about the things
that they don't know quickexplainer for our audience on
what DEI is.
I know our American listenersare going to know all about it,
but perhaps some of ourAustralian listeners aren't as
(18:45):
familiar with DEI.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah, there's definitely some people in my
circles who wouldn't know whatthat means.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Diversity, equity and inclusion.
It's always changing.
Now it's DEIB diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging and it
really is a program that existsin the corporate world and in
the educational world to makespaces more welcoming to
minority groups.
And I will say I think that atits core, it's a good idea.
I think what we've seen is itbecome manipulated by bad faith
(19:12):
actors.
It's been mishandled, and notalways purposefully.
I think that's important to say.
It exploded, as you say, whenthis book was published in 2021.
It was the peak of that post,george Floyd, and a lot of DEI
programs were put in place afterthat.
So it was a response.
But that was dealing with onekind of experience, the black
American experience.
It wasn't necessarily able totake into account every other
(19:35):
experience and you know we'reseeing the Trump administration
speak about it, we're seeingcompanies roll it back, and I
understand why that is happening.
But I also think it's a shamebecause I do think, at its core,
our workplaces, our companies,our schools be welcoming,
welcoming and inclusive for allgroups.
And as a member of two minoritygroups, you, I do experience
(19:55):
things sometimes that you wouldmaybe call microaggressions,
which are not ill intended.
It's just people maybe beingslightly ignorant and those
could be avoided if we had aspace to talk about them.
But again, it has to be aspecific type of space, right?
If you're talking aboutdifficult things, even though I
said before, the internalconversation has to be without
shame.
Type of space, right?
If you're talking aboutdifficult things, even though I
said before, the internalconversation has to be without
shame.
Right, and without judgment,with empathy.
(20:16):
That goes for conversationsabout other experiences.
You cannot be starting from aplace where you're accusing
people or punishing people.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
It has to be about empowering people through
education, and I don't alwaysthink that's happened with DEI
(20:44):
which is a shame, you know,really seeing Jews and Israelis
as the oppressor, as thepowerful, as you know, somehow
distinct from a and fair gameand absolutely not also a
minority, not also deserving offorms of equity.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Yeah, I mean I understand the criticism.
I would rather say that DEI hasbeen both a cause and a symptom
.
Right, I don't think we can sayit's just the cause, because
people have those ideas and thenthey were expressed in the DEI
context, right, but it certainlyhas, as you say, I think,
charged it.
But I think that we're seeingit's a symptom of the left.
We're seeing the more radical,more fringe ideas about Jews
(21:29):
that exist on the left haveentered the mainstream.
And I actually would say thatthe root to a lot of what we're
experiencing internationally isJeremy Corbyn, the former leader
of the Labour Party.
But he's also a cause and asymptom.
He certainly emboldened peopleand he certainly propelled this
issue forward, but, like DEI,the issues were already there.
He was just the one to expressit and in DEI, that context,
(21:52):
those ideas about Jews andparticularly whiteness, they
were already there.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
It was just maybe brought into the mainstream in a
slightly more overt way, findtheir own Jewish identity from
within, rather than what'sprojected from the outside, from
people who aren't Jewish.
(22:16):
That really, really resonatedwith me.
One of the reasons why we haveyou on the show today is because
I read a piece on the Jewishindependent, your piece.
We need to stop thinking ofJudaism as a religion, and in
this piece, which is an excerptfrom your new book, you suggest
(22:38):
that to fully embrace Jewishindigeneity and to reject the
non-Jewish world's attempt toimpose its thinking upon us, the
Jewish people need in fact, yousay must re-examine how we
define our Jewish identity.
And you said there's no aspectof this process more vital than
(22:58):
the notion of Judaism as areligion.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
It's a bit shocking to people, I know, because that
is kind of the commonly heldtruth that we're a religion,
both internally and externally.
But I will say I feel like it'sthe hell I'm going to die on.
I feel very passionately thatwe're not a religion.
And I will say there's nuancehere, because we have religion.
Right, I'm not denying that wehave religion, that is true.
But when we start thinking aboutthe framework, so the
(23:24):
constructs of our identity, thenotion that we are a religion
comes from the Christian West.
Where do we come from?
We come from the Levant, wecome from the Middle East, and
those are different contexts.
So in the Christian world orlet's say the post-Christian
world right, because a lot ofthis emerged following the
Enlightenment or as a result ofthe Enlightenment what we see is
(23:46):
religion being separated fromother parts of life and society,
literally the separation ofchurch and state.
That is what secularism was andthat doesn't really exist in a
Jewish context.
I'm an atheist or agnostic JewI've not really quite decided
yet which, I guess, makes meagnostic.
Anyway, god does not play arole in my Jewish identity at
all.
I don't think about God.
My father passed away just overeight years ago, and I still
(24:08):
say Kaddish for him on his Yartsite, and if you read the
translation of Kaddish, it's allabout God, right?
So we as Jews, even if we'reatheist or agnostic, we're still
interacting with the concept ofa God, at the very least, which
is very different.
Because let's think about whatwe are.
We began life as tribes, as apeople, as kingdoms, as a
civilization.
(24:29):
And let's just pivot to ournext door neighbors, the ancient
Egyptians.
I've seen the Prince of Egypt,that song that the two priests
sing right.
I actually can't remember it,but I know they talk about Ra.
So there are Egyptian gods, butwe would never describe ancient
Egypt as a religion.
We would describe them as acivilization, an ancient
civilization, and as part ofthat there was religion.
(24:50):
Similarly, with indigenoustribes all over the world, of
course, in Australia, the Maorisin New Zealand, the Sami people
in Scandinavia, indigenouspeople in North America, there
is religion, there is arelationship with a deity or
deities Though we have that,we're not ignoring it but we
have to understand ourselvesthrough our own lens.
(25:11):
So let's speak about thiscommonly held, in my opinion,
misperception or misconception.
Let's first state that in theTorah there's no word for
religion.
What do we call ourselves?
What's our rallying cry?
Am Yisrael Chai, the people ofIsrael live, we're an, am we're
a people.
So that is that.
That's that context.
But at some point we did becomea religion and in the book I was
(25:34):
desperate to investigate and Ifound this amazing article
called Dat from Law to Religion.
Because what do we call thereligious in modern Israel?
We call them Dati, right, butthe root, the shoresh of dati is
dat, and dat originally meantlaw.
It was actually first used inMegilat, esther, the scroll of
Esther that we read at Purim,and it was in reference to law.
(25:55):
And at some point dat went fromlaw to religion.
And the paper that I read that Ithink I quoted in the piece,
because that was just an excerptfrom the book and I certainly
quote it in the book was thisamazing piece and it basically
argued that the transformationbegan.
And this was a process.
But the transformation beganafter the Reformation, when the
(26:16):
Christians started to refer toall systems of belief as religio
, whereas previously they'd onlyreferred to Christianity or
Catholicism as religio, and thatstarted to influence Jewish
thinking.
When we think about influencingJewish thinking, we have to
think about the dynamic.
What were we trying to do?
It's okay for civilizations toevolve and to change and to grow
(26:37):
.
That's actually not an issue.
The issue is that in thatcontext in Europe at that time,
we were a very persecutedminority.
So often what we were trying todo is make ourselves like I did
previously when I talked aboutmake ourselves more palatable,
make ourselves into good Jews,remake ourselves in their image
so that we can fit into theirdynamic.
(26:58):
And this idea kind of wentforward and I think the paper
identified an Italian Jew whowas the first person to speak
about Jewish religion.
Then there's other examples andthen in the 19th century and I
quote this in my book there's aBritish Jew who speaks about
Jewish religion, but really, ifyou read it, what he's speaking
about is Christianity, becauseit was a muddling of Jewish
(27:19):
identity.
And then, of course, we've seenthis idea intensify.
And it's really fascinatingbecause in America after the war
, after the Holocaust, therewere three religions emerging
Catholicism, protestantism andJudaism and they became like the
three American religions.
So what it did was give againJews a conduit to be Jewish, but
(27:42):
in a way which was palatableand acceptable in the non-Jewish
framework.
And if we reflect again on thesimple fact, there's no word for
religion in the Torah.
You have to start investigatingwhat we are.
We have religion.
We have God.
The Torah says that it waswritten by God, that God
promised us the land.
Those are important beliefs andthey are part of our indigenous
(28:03):
experience.
And again, cultural evolutionis fine.
The Pesach cider was not Jewish, it was Greek.
The Torah just says tell yoursons, eat matzah maror, we're
done.
There was a ceremony that thetheater of the cider, that the
Greeks were doing and we lookedat that and thought that's cool,
let's take it and make itJewish.
But that's very different frommaking us less Jewish.
(28:25):
I'm using inverted commasbecause not everyone would agree
with me, but I think that ifyou're changing your very
construct to fit in with thewider world, that is making
yourself less Jewish.
It's certainly making yourself,in my opinion, less
authentically Jewish.
And listen, this conversationwas scheduled because of the
response to that article.
I don't think any of usexpected people to take to it so
(28:46):
much and I'm thrilled that theyhave, because and also I saw
debate and dialogue, which iswonderful.
Because we're Jews, we're notgoing to all agree, that's fine,
it's like in our blood, but Ithink at least having the
conversation is important andnot just accepting these like
almost natural truths, whichactually are not necessarily
accurate.
They're just things that wehave said over and over again.
(29:07):
One of the things I talk abouta lot is the idea of interfaith.
We're not a faith, and I'vespoken about this on Twitter and
people came for me.
It was absolutely terrible andmy point was that Judaism does
not contain faith and peoplewere like what about Emunah?
I said yes, you've talked aboutEmunah, which is a different
concept to faith.
Why am I saying that?
Because emunah is a Jewishconcept and it's an ancient
(29:30):
Hebrew word.
Faith is an English word whichhas different roots and
therefore a different context.
Emunah is more about belief.
Faith is a different thingaltogether.
Again, I'm not saying we don'thave religion, we absolutely do.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
But it's very different to have religion as
opposed to being a religion.
I'm so glad you mentionedemunah, because emunah is rooted
, you write, in a dynamicrelationship with God,
emphasizing trust, loyalty and aprofound personal connection
with the divine.
Hence the Jewish propensity towrestle with God.
And you said it's aboutengaging in a lived relationship
(30:10):
with God and thriving onongoing dialogue and encounters
where the individual activelyparticipates in their covenant
with the divine.
So how does that differ to theChristian framework or concept
of faith, which I think is aword I've never heard before?
(30:31):
You wrote is it pistis?
Speaker 3 (30:34):
So I think what we see with our relationship with
God is based on belief.
It's an interactiverelationship and we wrestle, we
criticize, we critique.
I mean that's kind of theJewish, the essence of this
relationship In the Christianworld.
That's not so much what it is.
It's you have faith and yourfaith doesn't change.
It's not dynamic, it's notevolving, it's not rooted in a
(30:55):
relationship necessarily in thatsense, and it's also not rooted
in what we would refer to asevidence.
Right, our belief can evolvewhen new ideas emerge, and I
think the thing withChristianity and Islam is that
they have creed.
You know, these are the thingsyou must believe if you're a
Christian you have.
My partner is not Jewish, he wasraised Christian.
(31:15):
So when I was writing thissection, I was like I think I
know the answer, but I'm justchecking.
You can't be a Christian if youdon't believe in Jesus, right?
And my partner was like no, ofcourse not, whereas don't
believe in Jesus, right?
And my partner was like no, ofcourse not, whereas we actually
don't have anything like that.
Yes, of course we can say, okay, jewish monotheism, we have the
Shema.
But because Judaism is aculture, the Jews are a people.
(31:37):
You can be atheist.
You can be secular.
You can be an atheist Jew.
You can't really be an atheistChristian.
You can be culturally Christianor culturally Islamic,
culturally Muslim, but that'snot the same thing.
You could be a practicingshul-going Jew and be atheist.
In the Jewish context, in theJewish world, we still
acknowledge that there is theconcept of a God right, I
(31:58):
acknowledge it when I say theShema, when I say Baruch
Atadonai, when I say Kaddish.
We're active participants inthis culture if we as
individuals and this is thething about indigeneity, because
it's not just aboutindividuality, it's about a
collective relationship.
That's why converts, as I writein the book, are just as
indigenous as someone who wasborn Jewish, because the Jews
(32:19):
are indigenous and, by the way,non-indigenous people can join
indigenous tribes in other partsof the world.
They can have adoption orinitiation.
So we're not unique in that,but I think it's really
important.
You know even the notion of ruth, right, ruth is known as the
first convert.
She is very important.
She's included in the canon.
She's king david's uh,great-grandmother, I think, and
(32:42):
I called up a rabbi to be like.
So what did she do if shedidn't convert?
Because if we're not a religion, then there was no conversion
and especially there wasn'torganized religion at that time.
And he said something verysimple and I thought ah, that's
it.
He said she naturalized as acitizen.
We're an am, a nation, a people.
So when you know the convertsare meant to be at Sinai with us
, they're a part of our people,they become a part of the Am and
(33:08):
again there is religion.
But we have to be precise in thelanguage we can't be utilizing.
So here I'm looking at my book,this section, and a little bit
later what you're talking about.
So you read that section aboutthe Jewish belief, right, pistis
, which is the Greek.
In contrast, pistis tends tofocus more on believing in
specific truths or doctrines, ieJesus is the Son of God.
(33:31):
You have to believe that OnEmunah.
And Pistis Buber states in theEnglish translation of his work
the faith of Judaism and thefaith of Christendom are by
nature different in kind.
But the problem is when you'reusing the same word, especially
because we're not in English.
I mean you and I we're allspeaking English here, but we're
not actually an Englishspeaking people, we're an Ibrit
speaking people.
(33:51):
That's why we have to learnHebrew, because if we're going
to be Talmudic scholars orliterate, in our own experience.
We have to be able toinvestigate it in our own
language, because then there'sspecific meaning and specific
ideas which come from it.
And there's a quote here that Ilove and it's Hafok ba hafok ba
, hafok ba dekulaba.
(34:12):
Turn it over and over again forall as therein.
And it's from Prekeh Avot andit's about the Jewish
relationship.
We're constantly investigating.
It's no surprise that we'rehaving this conversation right,
because we, as Jews, we want toget to it, we want to bullseye
it, we want to debate anddialogue, and that's what people
do when they read the Talmud,right, they read it in Fevrutan,
(34:33):
they read a certain amount, andyou read it with someone else
because you always want to be indiscussion.
That, turning over to me, iswhat Judaism is.
It's this intellectualexploration and again I
apologize to the listenersbecause you've got me excited
and I'm yapping From like anindigeneity perspective to
understand the Torah, the Tanakh, as law.
(34:56):
We come from this unbelievablyrich legal tradition, because
that's what the Torah is.
It's a legal code, right?
Or the laws of the Torah arelegal code, and so, in a sense,
for all of us who engage inthese conversations, we're just
lawyers debating what does theword mean.
What does the essence mean?
Speaker 1 (35:15):
My family would be so happy to hear that I'm a lawyer
.
Thank you for diagnosing mewith lawyer.
I'm so glad you brought up Ruthand her naturalization, because
you might be surprised to learnthat Dashiell Lawrence actually
isn't Jewish, but his partneris Jewish and his kids are
Jewish and he's executivedirector of the Jewish
(35:36):
Independent.
And what was your doctorate in,dash?
Speaker 2 (35:41):
My PhD I looked at the role of Israel and Zionism
in Australian Jewish communitylife.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Yeah, so you have not converted, but you have been
naturalised.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Not in the Ruth sense .
Look, I am glad that you raisedthe question of converts, ben,
because when you were talkingabout the notion of a tribe and
an indigenous tribe, I canimagine that critics of your
book and your thinking would saywell, how do you treat converts
then?
Because they weren't indigenousto the land of Israel, they're
(36:16):
not a part of the tribe.
But you have given anexplanation for that.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
So my mentor, who's the last interviewee in the book
, is Dr Winston Pickett and heconverted 50 years ago and he is
the most Jewish Jew I've evermet.
He's so Jewish.
And I think the thing isthere's a lot of
misunderstanding aboutindigeneity and the role of
genetics within indigeneity isvery complicated and
controversial.
And I will say listen, thereare Jewish genetics, they do
(36:44):
exist.
We don't need to be scared ofthem in a post-Holocaust world.
But if you look at the UnitedNations criteria on indigeneity,
genetics isn't mentioned once.
It's all about culture, it'sall about the traditions, it's
about this continuousrelationship with the land and
other.
You know, I was just in Calgaryand I met a First Nations
(37:05):
person from, I think, territory6, it's called that part of
Canada and he spoke about hisindigenous tribe and says, yeah,
we have initiation, you canadopt non-indigenous people in,
and I think it's a reallywonderful thing because, you
know, my partner is SouthAfrican and we're living in the
UK to get him a British passportand he will become British.
You know, he doesn't lose hisSouth African-ness or whatever,
(37:27):
but he becomes part of this newcommunity and that is exactly
the same way.
And we do have membershipcriteria and the membership
criteria is very clear you canbe born Jewish or you can
convert.
So converts are absolutely acentral and really the story of
Ruth tells us they are centralin Jewish texts and Jewish
liturgy and it's not okay.
(37:49):
So they're not connectedgenetically, but that's not what
makes us indigenous, they'realmost separate conversations
the role of the existence ofJewish genetics and the role
they play in indigeneity.
And so the last thing I will saybefore I hand over to you Dash
because I interrupted you was inthe beginning of the book I
talk about blood quantum, right,the idea of measuring
(38:09):
indigenous blood, and that was apolicy created by the American
and Canadian governments, inessence to limit the number of
people who are allowed anallotment, an allotment of land.
It's not so dissimilar to theNuremberg laws and structure.
And there are some indigenouspeople, non-jewish indigenous
people, who talk about bloodquantum as genocide because they
say, well, the further down yougo, the more watered inverted
(38:32):
commas your blood gets, the lessindigenous you get.
That's not how it works, evenif you are a strong, proud
member of the culture.
And alternatively, you can havesomeone and we see this
particularly in the US right,someone who's like I'm 10%
native.
It's like okay, what about yourinteractions with the culture?
What about your learning?
What about all of the work wehave to do?
That's why I spoke about in thebeginning with my parents, the
(38:54):
act of work of being Jewish.
The last thing I'm going to sayis my partner's not Jewish and
he's not going to convertbecause he was raised Christian
and, as I've said, believes inJesus.
He ticked that box, but I callhim a Jew for Jesus because he's
like Jewish in every other way.
But I said to him, particularlyafter October 7th I said you've
(39:14):
crossed over, you're not Jewishand that's fine, but you do
exist in this, in our world,because he has developed through
years and years I mean we'vebeen together almost 10 years a
relationship with me, obviously,the Jewish people and the land
of Israel.
So I do believe that you can be.
You know we call them likenon-Jewish Jews, right, like
there are people and there arequite a few, but there are
(39:34):
people who cross over and enterinto the community, even if they
don't formally convert ornaturalize.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Ben, the next festival that we have as Jews
coming up is Pesach, if I'm notmistaken, and you mentioned the
Passover, the Pesach Seder.
Now, the Pesach story, thestory of Exodus, is all about
liberation, which also connectsdeeply to the Indigenous nature
(40:03):
of Jewish identity, doesn't it?
Because we are being liberatedfrom Slavery in Egypt, yeah, and
being promised to be deliveredto.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
The land of Israel.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
I'm getting that from the Prince of.
Egypt.
Is this a yes?
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Mr Ben, I want to make sure that you actually have
done all that reading.
You said I know exactly.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
Yeah, I find Pesach to be absolutely fascinating.
First because it seems to beone of the festivals that Jews
celebrate the most.
And it's fascinating becausePesach is when we came together
at Mount Sinai, is when we cametogether as a nation.
That's when the Jewish peoplewere born.
Previously, you had Abraham,according to the Torah, Abraham
coming from Ur, then you hadAbraham, Isaac and Jacob, and
(40:45):
then poor Joseph was shipped offwith his Technicolor dream coat
and we weren't a nation in thatway.
That's when we multiplied,that's when we became a nation.
So Pesach is absolutely centralbecause, you're right, when are
we going to?
Where are we walking to?
For 40 years, it's the land ofIsrael.
But, fascinatingly even, Ithink another layer of our
indigeneity is the origins ofPesach as a festival.
(41:08):
So I mentioned the Pesach Seder, but also Pesach.
There is writing and noteveryone agrees with this, but
there is writing that Pesach wasdeveloped from two distinct
holidays and holidays belongingor let's say, festivals
belonging to specific groupsshepherds and farmers.
So shepherds had lambs.
What is traditionallysacrificed at Pesach, the
(41:28):
Paschal lamb.
What do we eat?
We eat a matzah, which isunleavened bread coming from
wheat, and the other group isthe farmers, and the farmers
were farming wheat and theshepherds were shepherding lamb
and I'm not a shepherd or afarmer, so I don't know the
correct terminology but theyeach basically made sacrifices
in order to kind of guaranteegood harvests or good crops or
good lambs, whatever.
(41:49):
And then it developed and thisis what I find so incredible the
origins of our festivals,Because even Rosh Hashanah Rosh
Hashanah began life as theagricultural new year.
But yeah, they say that.
So not only is Pesach thisholiday which celebrates Jewish
nationhood, and we literally sayL'shanah B'Abe Yerushalayim.
So it's absolutelyextraordinary when you have
(42:10):
anti-Zionist Jews celebratingPesach and it's like what is it?
Is it L'shanah B'Abe Prakav?
No, of course that's insane.
It's L'shanah B'AbeYerushalayim next year in
Jerusalem.
But also its very essence, itsorigins, its roots the Shoresh
come also from the land, becausethe wheat that grew from the
land and the lambs.
So it's absolutelyextraordinary.
(42:31):
And, as I say in the book,there's a lot of holidays
probably most of our holidays,rather, come from the land in
some way, and most Jews don'tknow that, but it doesn't matter
, they're still being celebrated.
Think about what we do at SukkotJews in Australia, Jews in
Scotland.
We shake the lulav and etrog.
It's like we're shaking literalleaves from the land and fruit
(42:51):
and fruit.
I grew up in Scotland, as wediscussed.
Can you imagine anything moreinsane for Scottish people to
pray for rain?
It is unbelievably ridiculousbecause all it does is rain.
But when we pray for rain, aswe do in the Amida, we're not
praying for rain in Scotland,we're praying for rain in Israel
.
Isn't that just incredible?
Yeah, the view was always there,and I think that also what this
(43:16):
idea does is it givespermission for people to claim
this relationship not throughthe lens of religion, Because if
you have religion and if youhave this kind of hierarchy of,
well, this is how you're Jewish,this is how you're not Jewish.
It creates this feeling ofalienation if you don't believe,
if you don't do, Whereasactually what we need to say is
(43:40):
every single person has a rightto engage in their relationship
with Jewishness, with Israel,how they see fit.
You know, I always imagineJewishness or Judaism as an
enormous buffet table and we'reall at this, very loud simcha,
and we get up off our seats andwe go and choose something from
the table.
And you, Dash, might chooseshakshuka, Tammy, you might
choose falafel, I might choosechopped liver, which I probably
would and we're all choosingsomething different, but we're
all going up, we're allinteracting because, ultimately,
(44:02):
it is our birthright, Becausewe also have to remember that as
indigenous people and this isacross the board indigenous
people are the inheritors ofgreat civilizations.
We have inherited this and itdoesn't belong to us.
We inherit it for the moment.
We're here to take care of it,to mend it before we pass it on.
So we have to always ask whatare we passing on?
How are we interacting with it?
(44:23):
How are we presenting it?
And it's not about changingthings, you know.
It's not about trying to quoteProfessor Umbridge from Harry
Potter.
What does she say?
Progress for progress sake.
Right, she doesn't like that.
But we're trying to go back tothe essence.
We're not saying we can'tevolve.
We're not saying the PESACstory can't evolve.
And the last thing I'll say, tobring the little bit about
(44:45):
Pesach whether you believe ornot believe it doesn't matter,
because we as an indigenouspeople, we as a distinct
civilization, we're allowed totell our own stories and tell
our own myths.
The Greeks do it, the Romans doit, every other people in the
world create stories to explaintheir origins.
And I actually think theTorah's perspective is rooted,
at the very least, in historicalmemory, so it's like really
(45:08):
historic recalling somethingthat did happen.
It doesn't mean it's all true,but it doesn't matter, it
doesn't have to be so.
Even if you're in verticalcommas again a secular Jew and
you don't believe in God, youdon't believe the Torah was
written by God, it doesn'tmatter.
These myths are our foundingstories.
They're supremely important andif you do believe in God, then
wonderful, good for you,fantastic.
(45:28):
But they're not mutuallyexclusive.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
A good way to sign off.
Thank you so much for coming inand talking to us on A Shame to
Admit.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
My pleasure.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
That was Ben M Freeman.
His book the Jews andIndigenous People is out now,
and his other two books are alsoin all good bookstores.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
You've been listening to A Shame to Admit.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
With me Tammy Sussman and executive director of TJI,
dr Dashiell Lawrence.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
If you like the podcast, then leave a positive
review.
It really does help otherpeople find this show.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
You can tell us what you're ashamed to admit via the
contact form on the JewishIndependent website or by
emailing ashamed at thejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
As always, thanks for your support.
Go make yourself some somespaghetti.
Look out for us next week ciaoyou.
Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in
Australia, the Middle East andthe world at large, but
struggling to keep up with thenews cycle, Well, you have
possibly come to the right place.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I'm Dash Lawrence and , in this podcast series, your
crazy third cousin, tammySwissussman, and I call on
experts and each other toaddress all of those ignorant
questions that you've been tooashamed to ask.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Join us as we have a good go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast.
Ashamed to Admit to the JewishIndependent.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Podcast.
A Shame to Admit Dash.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Tammy, Tammy, Sussman hello.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Tell everyone what you do at the Jewish Independent
.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I am the Executive Director.
Why don't you tell thelisteners what you do at the
Jewish Independent Tammy?
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I freelance for the Jewish Independent.
I write articles, I make thispodcast.
I constantly ask you to make mea full-time role.
You haven't.
I keep coming up with newpotential job titles.
Comedy Saar was one of them.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Fashion.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Correspondent.
That was your latest.
I also come to events hosted byTJI and make awkward small talk
.
I might just walk right up tosomeone who looks important and
just say hey, do you likecarbohydrates?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
You clear the table of the gluten-free celiac I do
appetizers.
I've seen you in action youpoke people with your skewers I
do love carbs.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Do you love carbs dash?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
of course I'm a marathon runner.
I need to be carb loading allthe time he had to throw that in
there couldn't possibly performat my optimum unless I was carb
loading.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
What's your favorite carb?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Oh, I do love a good slice of sourdough bread.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
How do you feel about pasta?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Love pasta.
Had several bowls of pasta lastnight, in fact, delicious.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
What type of pasta did you have last night, Dash?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I think it was spaghetti.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I love spaghetti.
Spaghetti is my favourite typeof pasta.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Look, it's probably our go-to in the house.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Okay, so I've now concluded that you are a fan of
spaghetti.
Are you also a fan of frivolity?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Oh well, I sit down and talk to you every week.
So clearly I am.
We're a sucker for punishment.
Not sure which one, but acombination of both, probably.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
All right.
So you're a fan of spaghettiand you love frivolity, so I
think you would be a goodcandidate to be a member of the
Church of the Flying SpaghettiMonster.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Oh yeah, yep.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Do you know what their religion is called?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Do I know what their religion is called?
Yeah, it's kind of like a sortof a mock religion.
It's a parody.
It's an attempt to poke fun atreligions, isn't it?
Well, it started that way.
It's an attempt to poke fun atreligions, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Well, it started that way.
They refer to themselves aspastafarian.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Ah, that's right.
Yes, yes, very clever, and I dolove a pun, so I'm a
pastafarian for sure.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
She's looking at me like where is she going with
this, when are you going with it?
What I'm trying to do is make alink between pastor theory and
religion and what constitutes areligion.
That was one of my worst.
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Let's have one more go at doing this.
So, tammy, you're like aninteresting case study in being
Jewish, right, because you grewup in a Jewish milieu, you went
to Jewish day school.
You have had, and still have, alot of Jewish friends.
You identify very much asJewish, but I don't hear you
(04:15):
often talking a lot about God orabout faith or about Judaism.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Thank you so much for guiding this conversation into
the direction that it needed togo in.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
And this is a thing that I've recognised in a lot of
my Jewish friends, a lot ofpeople particularly of your
generation, but I think it goesback centuries.
There have always been Jewsthat maybe they appreciate and
they celebrate certain religiousrituals and festivals, but
there's a whole other big partof what makes them Jewish that
(04:50):
has nothing to do with faith andwith religion.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
I think I've even said on thispodcast before that among my
Jewish friends I am the mostnon-practicing Jew out of those
people and yet I am the mostJew-y, like I'm constantly
engaging in Jewish discussionand thought and writing, you
(05:19):
know, kind of oozes out of mypores and yet I am the least
observant in that context.
So you've hit the nail on thehead.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
And by some people's standards that makes you perhaps
less Jewish because you don'tkeep a kosher household.
You might be quote unquote abad Jew when it comes to keeping
Jewish religious law.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
No need to rub it in.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
I'm pointing out here a kind of a problem, which is
how could you, someone who is, Iconsider and you also identify
in this way a very Jewish personbe?
You know, if we just thinkabout Jewish identity through
the prism of religion, then I'msorry to say, but there's not a
whole lot that I can identify inyou.
But if we have a much moreexpansive notion of what it is
(06:12):
to be Jewish, you're a 99.9%Jewish.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah, 100%.
That is why I found today'sconversation with Ben M Freeman
so validating.
I can't wait for our listenersto hear this whether you
identify as a religious Jew or acultural Jew, or a culinary Jew
or just a comically affiliatedJew, you'll gain something from
(06:42):
this conversation.
Ate a Jew you'll gain somethingfrom this conversation I forgot
to mention.
If you're a Jewish convert, ifyou're Jew adjacent, if you love
a Jew and not in a weird waylike hey, I love me a Jew, but
like you genuinely have someonein your life who is Jewish and
you love them, you'll lovetoday's conversation.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Our guest today.
Scottish Jewish educator,writer, thinker, ben M Freeman
has been wrestling with some ofthese questions in recent years.
Ben is the author of threebooks.
His latest book is the Jews andIndigenous People and in this
(07:23):
book Ben makes the provocativecase that we need to stop
thinking of Judaism as areligion, that the idea of
Judaism as a world religion isactually a relatively new and
externally imposed concept.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Ben M Freeman is a Jewish and gay thought leader
and educator.
Born in Scotland, Ben is alsoan internationally renowned
author and diversity, equity andinclusion specialist, focusing
on Jewish identity and raisingawareness of the Holocaust.
He came to prominence duringthe Corbyn-Labour Jew hate
crisis and quickly became one ofhis generation's leading voices
(08:02):
against anti-Jewish racism.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Ben is the founder of the modern Jewish Pride
movement and the author of theJewish Pride Manifesto Jewish
Pride Rebuilding a People.
His book the Jews andIndigenous People was published
in February 2025.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Here's Ben M Freeman.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Ben, you're the first Scottish Jew that we've had on
A Shame to Admit.
To begin the conversation today.
Tell us a little bit about theScottish Jewish community that
you grew up in, and I'mparticularly interested in how
it shaped your particular Jewishidentity.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Well, first of all, thank you for having me, and
it's really not a surprise.
I'm the first Scottish Jew tobe unashamed to admit, because
there's not that many of us.
So when I grew up, there wasabout 5,000 Jews in the whole
country, so there were 5 millionpeople in Scotland, so 5,000 in
the whole country, and we had areal sense that we were a
minority because of that.
But I will say that there wasno value attributed to our
(09:16):
minority status.
We just were a minority, right,and we could look at other kids
in the non-Jewish high schoolswe went to and we could look at
the Pakistani kids or theScottish kids or the Nigerian
kids, and we were all justbelonging to our distinct
communities I mentioned.
I went to a non-Jewish highschool because there is one
Jewish school in the wholecountry and it's an elementary
(09:36):
school, a primary school.
So I went there for nursery,kindergarten and then primary
slash, elementary, and then,when it came time to go to high
school, I had to go to anon-Jewish high school.
But the community was small butmighty, incredibly strong,
incredibly proud, incrediblyZionist, and there were many,
many activities for young Jewsand it really, to be honest, it
(09:58):
was cool to be involved in thecommunity.
You know, my friends and I, mypeers from my primary school, we
would reunite at the Jewishyouth movements and the Jewish
communal events.
So it really was kind of anamazing place to grow up, to be
honest, and my oldest friendswho I'm friends with still to
this day are people I met inkindergarten or nursery.
So it really was an amazingplace and I do think that that
(10:19):
understanding that we were aminority helped me understand
that we have to work for ourJewishness.
And I think you know I'm in LosAngeles right now and I travel a
lot for my work to speak, and Ithink that is a really
important lesson that we shouldnever take our Jewishness for
granted.
We should always be activeparticipants in it, and that was
a real lesson that I learned.
And also to speak up and to beproud and to own your own
(10:42):
identity, particularly whenyou're aware of being a minority
, and I also think that'simportant.
We are a minority.
There's like 15, 16 millionJews in the world and yes, there
are some Jewish communities,like maybe New York, and they
feel that they're the majoritybecause the Jewish culture is
very strong or because there'smany, many Jews, but it's like
they're still a minority and Ican see when I speak in America,
(11:04):
their eyes get really big whenI say you guys are a minority,
because they know it but theydon't really internalize it and
understand it.
And I think it's reallyimportant and, again, we don't
need to attribute value to it,it's just an understanding that
we're a distinct pride and inyour debut book, jewish Pride
Rebuilding a People.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
You explore this notion of Jewish pride as an
important response toanti-Semitism.
Are you able to tell ourlisteners how you personally
distinguish this approach fromother frameworks for addressing
discrimination?
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I want my work to always hit the bullseye right.
You don't want to be speakingaround an issue and I think even
having the language of Jewishpride is quite different.
It's quite different fromsaying we are empowered Jews.
I even think it's differentfrom saying we're Jewish and
proud.
We're creating a standalonemovement and it was inspired by
my experience with LGBTQ pluspride.
(12:08):
Right, I'm also a proud gay manand I think that's the
difference.
You know, you can be gay andproud, but that's different from
the gay pride movement.
And again, that's what I'mtrying to build, or have been
trying to build a movement thatwill educate, inspire and
empower Jews and listen.
Of course, there's echoes ofstanding up for yourself, of
knowing who you are.
You know those are not distinctnecessarily to the Jewish pride
(12:31):
movement.
I think that owning thatlanguage is important and
actually, since October 7th, itis a response to Jew hatred.
But I also think it's somethingmore than just a response.
It's a reclamation and I thinkthat's also maybe sets it apart.
It's about finding the Jewishjoy, the Jewish beauty.
It's about owning our ownidentity, not allowing ourselves
to be defined by the worldaround us or by how they treat
(12:53):
us, and I think that's the kindof interesting thing
post-October 7th.
You know, there are many Jewswho have maybe come back to
their Jewish identity or whofeel it has grown in some way,
and I think with that we have anopportunity entity, or who feel
it has grown in some way and Ithink with that we have an
opportunity.
Out of the tragedy comes perhapsthis opportunity and it's to
turn that relationship rooted in, maybe, october 7th into
(13:14):
something positive, into anunderstanding of what it means
to be a Jew, into a Jewishunderstanding of what it means
to be a Jew, into anunderstanding of Jewish
civilization, jewish indigeneity, jewish pride.
Because I think in the diaspora, because of Western
universalism, there are Jews whoget nervous about that, who get
nervous about saying you know,I'm a distinct Jewish person,
I'm different, my priority isthe Jewish people, my land is
(13:37):
Israel People.
The world often tries to makeus choose, so I think in
response to that, there arealways Jews who say no and this
is just our version of it.
But I was absolutely inspiredby my experience with LGBTQ plus
pride.
I wouldn't have been able towrite these books if I hadn't
already gone through the journeyto become a proud gay person.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
But also what was dissatisfactory about the
frameworks that you were givenin your earlier life, in your
Jewish education, because youdescribed a community that was
small but mighty.
So clearly there was a sense ofpride within that Jewish
community in Glasgow, I believe,which is where you were raised
but clearly there was also afeeling for you that something
(14:18):
wasn't quite right about the waythat Jews inhabited their
Jewishness publicly.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
I think that we do not have conversations about our
identity enough.
We do empower Jews I wasbrought up as a very proud Jew
but I don't think there are theconversations that we see in
other communities.
An example of this isinternalized anti-Jewishness
right, the idea of internalizedantisemitism, kind of commonly
referred to as self-hate,although I don't really like
that language.
That was my second book and itwas one of the first books in a
(14:47):
century on the topic whereas theLGBTQ plus community, the black
community, other communitieshave regular, ongoing
conversations, because prideisn't just about happy, positive
feelings.
It's really an investigationinto your identity and asking
the question how do I feel aboutmy Jewishness, how do I take up
the space, how do I navigatethe world?
(15:08):
It's a dialogue, and it's adialogue that we have as
individuals and as a collective,and it's not always easy,
because you have to be honestwith yourself and ask
challenging questions, and I wasnever encouraged to do that.
I wasn't discouraged, of course, but that was just not the
language.
We were empowered, of course,we were educated, but I don't
think it was the bullseye, Idon't think that they named it,
(15:31):
it was not a movement, it justwas okay.
We were just Jews.
We were happy and proud ofourselves, but I wanted to try
and build a movement that wouldempower us to go on this journey
of self-discovery so we canmove through the journey of
pride.
Because that's what I had to doas a gay person right, it
wasn't just that you decide.
Okay, I'm proud.
Wonderful, I've read the bookabout Harvey Milk.
I'm good to go.
(15:52):
No, it was work and I had toundo huge amounts of programming
that I had internalized fromthe world around me, and I still
stand by the fact that wedefinitely have got better with
regards to the conversation onJewish identity, but we're still
not there.
I think there should beconstantly an ongoing
conversation about ourexperience as Jews in the world,
(16:12):
and not just from a.
How are we experiencing Jewhatred?
Right, what is it like to be anAustralian Jew or a British Jew
?
Because a lot of thoseconversations actually focus on
the outside world.
What is done to us?
We should be having a dialogueabout how these experiences
impact us, how they impact usemotionally, psychologically,
how experiences impact us.
How they impact us emotionally,psychologically, how they make
(16:33):
us feel a better Jewishness, howthey make us feel that we're
able or not to move through theworld.
So that's what pride is.
It's not always comfortable oreasy to be questioning yourself
and say, well, how do I reallyfeel about this?
And I had to do that.
And as an example, you know mybrother was in the IDF for a
decade.
He's made Aliyah, my sister'smade Aliyah.
We were brought up, as I said,very Zionist.
I was still saying to peoplewhile working for a Jewish
(16:53):
organization I'm Jewish but orI'm Zionist but because what I
was really trying to do was showmy non-Jewish peers that I was
saying this to that I was a goodJew inverted commas that I was
a Jew but I wasn't so differentand I had to engage with that,
and that isn't alwayscomfortable.
But the thing I say when we goon this introspective journey as
a collective and as individuals, is that we've done nothing
(17:16):
wrong, even if we have, at times, not necessarily respected our
Jewishness or treated it with,you know, with the respect that
it's due.
We're a minority navigating aworld which is often very
hostile and very difficult.
It it's really an investigationinto identity.
And the last thing I will sayis you know, in each of my books
I interview individual Jews,because the books are about
(17:38):
identity, and I want to see howthese ideas interact with lived
experience, because we're realpeople and that's the most
important.
How do we take people on thisjourney in a tangible way which
educates, inspires and empowersthem, makes them feel able to
have this conversation, but doit without?
Speaker 2 (17:58):
shame and with empathy for themselves on
reflection, as historians lookat as the peak point of
diversity, equity and inclusion,which is a space that you've
worked in for a number of yearsas an educator and in some ways
(18:25):
I regard and correct me if I'mwrong your thinking to have been
framed around and influenced bythat thinking.
So I've got a follow-upquestion.
But before I get to thatquestion because this show is
all about helping people removetheir shame about the things
that they don't know quickexplainer for our audience on
what DEI is.
I know our American listenersare going to know all about it,
but perhaps some of ourAustralian listeners aren't as
(18:45):
familiar with DEI.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah, there's definitely some people in my
circles who wouldn't know whatthat means.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Diversity, equity and inclusion.
It's always changing.
Now it's DEIB diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging and it
really is a program that existsin the corporate world and in
the educational world to makespaces more welcoming to
minority groups.
And I will say I think that atits core, it's a good idea.
I think what we've seen is itbecome manipulated by bad faith
(19:12):
actors.
It's been mishandled, and notalways purposefully.
I think that's important to say.
It exploded, as you say, whenthis book was published in 2021.
It was the peak of that post,george Floyd, and a lot of DEI
programs were put in place afterthat.
So it was a response.
But that was dealing with onekind of experience, the black
American experience.
It wasn't necessarily able totake into account every other
(19:35):
experience and you know we'reseeing the Trump administration
speak about it, we're seeingcompanies roll it back, and I
understand why that is happening.
But I also think it's a shamebecause I do think, at its core,
our workplaces, our companies,our schools be welcoming,
welcoming and inclusive for allgroups.
And as a member of two minoritygroups, you, I do experience
(19:55):
things sometimes that you wouldmaybe call microaggressions,
which are not ill intended.
It's just people maybe beingslightly ignorant and those
could be avoided if we had aspace to talk about them.
But again, it has to be aspecific type of space, right?
If you're talking aboutdifficult things, even though I
said before, the internalconversation has to be without
shame.
Type of space, right?
If you're talking aboutdifficult things, even though I
said before, the internalconversation has to be without
shame.
Right, and without judgment,with empathy.
(20:16):
That goes for conversationsabout other experiences.
You cannot be starting from aplace where you're accusing
people or punishing people.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
It has to be about empowering people through
education, and I don't alwaysthink that's happened with DEI
(20:44):
which is a shame, you know,really seeing Jews and Israelis
as the oppressor, as thepowerful, as you know, somehow
distinct from a and fair gameand absolutely not also a
minority, not also deserving offorms of equity.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Yeah, I mean I understand the criticism.
I would rather say that DEI hasbeen both a cause and a symptom
.
Right, I don't think we can sayit's just the cause, because
people have those ideas and thenthey were expressed in the DEI
context, right, but it certainlyhas, as you say, I think,
charged it.
But I think that we're seeingit's a symptom of the left.
We're seeing the more radical,more fringe ideas about Jews
(21:29):
that exist on the left haveentered the mainstream.
And I actually would say thatthe root to a lot of what we're
experiencing internationally isJeremy Corbyn, the former leader
of the Labour Party.
But he's also a cause and asymptom.
He certainly emboldened peopleand he certainly propelled this
issue forward, but, like DEI,the issues were already there.
He was just the one to expressit and in DEI, that context,
(21:52):
those ideas about Jews andparticularly whiteness, they
were already there.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
It was just maybe brought into the mainstream in a
slightly more overt way, findtheir own Jewish identity from
within, rather than what'sprojected from the outside, from
people who aren't Jewish.
(22:16):
That really, really resonatedwith me.
One of the reasons why we haveyou on the show today is because
I read a piece on the Jewishindependent, your piece.
We need to stop thinking ofJudaism as a religion, and in
this piece, which is an excerptfrom your new book, you suggest
(22:38):
that to fully embrace Jewishindigeneity and to reject the
non-Jewish world's attempt toimpose its thinking upon us, the
Jewish people need in fact, yousay must re-examine how we
define our Jewish identity.
And you said there's no aspectof this process more vital than
(22:58):
the notion of Judaism as areligion.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
It's a bit shocking to people, I know, because that
is kind of the commonly heldtruth that we're a religion,
both internally and externally.
But I will say I feel like it'sthe hell I'm going to die on.
I feel very passionately thatwe're not a religion.
And I will say there's nuancehere, because we have religion.
Right, I'm not denying that wehave religion, that is true.
But when we start thinking aboutthe framework, so the
(23:24):
constructs of our identity, thenotion that we are a religion
comes from the Christian West.
Where do we come from?
We come from the Levant, wecome from the Middle East, and
those are different contexts.
So in the Christian world orlet's say the post-Christian
world right, because a lot ofthis emerged following the
Enlightenment or as a result ofthe Enlightenment what we see is
(23:46):
religion being separated fromother parts of life and society,
literally the separation ofchurch and state.
That is what secularism was andthat doesn't really exist in a
Jewish context.
I'm an atheist or agnostic JewI've not really quite decided
yet which, I guess, makes meagnostic.
Anyway, god does not play arole in my Jewish identity at
all.
I don't think about God.
My father passed away just overeight years ago, and I still
(24:08):
say Kaddish for him on his Yartsite, and if you read the
translation of Kaddish, it's allabout God, right?
So we as Jews, even if we'reatheist or agnostic, we're still
interacting with the concept ofa God, at the very least, which
is very different.
Because let's think about whatwe are.
We began life as tribes, as apeople, as kingdoms, as a
civilization.
(24:29):
And let's just pivot to ournext door neighbors, the ancient
Egyptians.
I've seen the Prince of Egypt,that song that the two priests
sing right.
I actually can't remember it,but I know they talk about Ra.
So there are Egyptian gods, butwe would never describe ancient
Egypt as a religion.
We would describe them as acivilization, an ancient
civilization, and as part ofthat there was religion.
(24:50):
Similarly, with indigenoustribes all over the world, of
course, in Australia, the Maorisin New Zealand, the Sami people
in Scandinavia, indigenouspeople in North America, there
is religion, there is arelationship with a deity or
deities Though we have that,we're not ignoring it but we
have to understand ourselvesthrough our own lens.
(25:11):
So let's speak about thiscommonly held, in my opinion,
misperception or misconception.
Let's first state that in theTorah there's no word for
religion.
What do we call ourselves?
What's our rallying cry?
Am Yisrael Chai, the people ofIsrael live, we're an, am we're
a people.
So that is that.
That's that context.
But at some point we did becomea religion and in the book I was
(25:34):
desperate to investigate and Ifound this amazing article
called Dat from Law to Religion.
Because what do we call thereligious in modern Israel?
We call them Dati, right, butthe root, the shoresh of dati is
dat, and dat originally meantlaw.
It was actually first used inMegilat, esther, the scroll of
Esther that we read at Purim,and it was in reference to law.
(25:55):
And at some point dat went fromlaw to religion.
And the paper that I read that Ithink I quoted in the piece,
because that was just an excerptfrom the book and I certainly
quote it in the book was thisamazing piece and it basically
argued that the transformationbegan.
And this was a process.
But the transformation beganafter the Reformation, when the
(26:16):
Christians started to refer toall systems of belief as religio
, whereas previously they'd onlyreferred to Christianity or
Catholicism as religio, and thatstarted to influence Jewish
thinking.
When we think about influencingJewish thinking, we have to
think about the dynamic.
What were we trying to do?
It's okay for civilizations toevolve and to change and to grow
(26:37):
.
That's actually not an issue.
The issue is that in thatcontext in Europe at that time,
we were a very persecutedminority.
So often what we were trying todo is make ourselves like I did
previously when I talked aboutmake ourselves more palatable,
make ourselves into good Jews,remake ourselves in their image
so that we can fit into theirdynamic.
(26:58):
And this idea kind of wentforward and I think the paper
identified an Italian Jew whowas the first person to speak
about Jewish religion.
Then there's other examples andthen in the 19th century and I
quote this in my book there's aBritish Jew who speaks about
Jewish religion, but really, ifyou read it, what he's speaking
about is Christianity, becauseit was a muddling of Jewish
(27:19):
identity.
And then, of course, we've seenthis idea intensify.
And it's really fascinatingbecause in America after the war
, after the Holocaust, therewere three religions emerging
Catholicism, protestantism andJudaism and they became like the
three American religions.
So what it did was give againJews a conduit to be Jewish, but
(27:42):
in a way which was palatableand acceptable in the non-Jewish
framework.
And if we reflect again on thesimple fact, there's no word for
religion in the Torah.
You have to start investigatingwhat we are.
We have religion.
We have God.
The Torah says that it waswritten by God, that God
promised us the land.
Those are important beliefs andthey are part of our indigenous
(28:03):
experience.
And again, cultural evolutionis fine.
The Pesach cider was not Jewish, it was Greek.
The Torah just says tell yoursons, eat matzah maror, we're
done.
There was a ceremony that thetheater of the cider, that the
Greeks were doing and we lookedat that and thought that's cool,
let's take it and make itJewish.
But that's very different frommaking us less Jewish.
(28:25):
I'm using inverted commasbecause not everyone would agree
with me, but I think that ifyou're changing your very
construct to fit in with thewider world, that is making
yourself less Jewish.
It's certainly making yourself,in my opinion, less
authentically Jewish.
And listen, this conversationwas scheduled because of the
response to that article.
I don't think any of usexpected people to take to it so
(28:46):
much and I'm thrilled that theyhave, because and also I saw
debate and dialogue, which iswonderful.
Because we're Jews, we're notgoing to all agree, that's fine,
it's like in our blood, but Ithink at least having the
conversation is important andnot just accepting these like
almost natural truths, whichactually are not necessarily
accurate.
They're just things that wehave said over and over again.
(29:07):
One of the things I talk abouta lot is the idea of interfaith.
We're not a faith, and I'vespoken about this on Twitter and
people came for me.
It was absolutely terrible andmy point was that Judaism does
not contain faith and peoplewere like what about Emunah?
I said yes, you've talked aboutEmunah, which is a different
concept to faith.
Why am I saying that?
Because emunah is a Jewishconcept and it's an ancient
(29:30):
Hebrew word.
Faith is an English word whichhas different roots and
therefore a different context.
Emunah is more about belief.
Faith is a different thingaltogether.
Again, I'm not saying we don'thave religion, we absolutely do.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
But it's very different to have religion as
opposed to being a religion.
I'm so glad you mentionedemunah, because emunah is rooted
, you write, in a dynamicrelationship with God,
emphasizing trust, loyalty and aprofound personal connection
with the divine.
Hence the Jewish propensity towrestle with God.
And you said it's aboutengaging in a lived relationship
(30:10):
with God and thriving onongoing dialogue and encounters
where the individual activelyparticipates in their covenant
with the divine.
So how does that differ to theChristian framework or concept
of faith, which I think is aword I've never heard before?
(30:31):
You wrote is it pistis?
Speaker 3 (30:34):
So I think what we see with our relationship with
God is based on belief.
It's an interactiverelationship and we wrestle, we
criticize, we critique.
I mean that's kind of theJewish, the essence of this
relationship In the Christianworld.
That's not so much what it is.
It's you have faith and yourfaith doesn't change.
It's not dynamic, it's notevolving, it's not rooted in a
(30:55):
relationship necessarily in thatsense, and it's also not rooted
in what we would refer to asevidence.
Right, our belief can evolvewhen new ideas emerge, and I
think the thing withChristianity and Islam is that
they have creed.
You know, these are the thingsyou must believe if you're a
Christian you have.
My partner is not Jewish, he wasraised Christian.
(31:15):
So when I was writing thissection, I was like I think I
know the answer, but I'm justchecking.
You can't be a Christian if youdon't believe in Jesus, right?
And my partner was like no, ofcourse not, whereas don't
believe in Jesus, right?
And my partner was like no, ofcourse not, whereas we actually
don't have anything like that.
Yes, of course we can say, okay, jewish monotheism, we have the
Shema.
But because Judaism is aculture, the Jews are a people.
(31:37):
You can be atheist.
You can be secular.
You can be an atheist Jew.
You can't really be an atheistChristian.
You can be culturally Christianor culturally Islamic,
culturally Muslim, but that'snot the same thing.
You could be a practicingshul-going Jew and be atheist.
In the Jewish context, in theJewish world, we still
acknowledge that there is theconcept of a God right, I
(31:58):
acknowledge it when I say theShema, when I say Baruch
Atadonai, when I say Kaddish.
We're active participants inthis culture if we as
individuals and this is thething about indigeneity, because
it's not just aboutindividuality, it's about a
collective relationship.
That's why converts, as I writein the book, are just as
indigenous as someone who wasborn Jewish, because the Jews
(32:19):
are indigenous and, by the way,non-indigenous people can join
indigenous tribes in other partsof the world.
They can have adoption orinitiation.
So we're not unique in that,but I think it's really
important.
You know even the notion of ruth, right, ruth is known as the
first convert.
She is very important.
She's included in the canon.
She's king david's uh,great-grandmother, I think, and
(32:42):
I called up a rabbi to be like.
So what did she do if shedidn't convert?
Because if we're not a religion, then there was no conversion
and especially there wasn'torganized religion at that time.
And he said something verysimple and I thought ah, that's
it.
He said she naturalized as acitizen.
We're an am, a nation, a people.
So when you know the convertsare meant to be at Sinai with us
, they're a part of our people,they become a part of the Am and
(33:08):
again there is religion.
But we have to be precise in thelanguage we can't be utilizing.
So here I'm looking at my book,this section, and a little bit
later what you're talking about.
So you read that section aboutthe Jewish belief, right, pistis
, which is the Greek.
In contrast, pistis tends tofocus more on believing in
specific truths or doctrines, ieJesus is the Son of God.
(33:31):
You have to believe that OnEmunah.
And Pistis Buber states in theEnglish translation of his work
the faith of Judaism and thefaith of Christendom are by
nature different in kind.
But the problem is when you'reusing the same word, especially
because we're not in English.
I mean you and I we're allspeaking English here, but we're
not actually an Englishspeaking people, we're an Ibrit
speaking people.
(33:51):
That's why we have to learnHebrew, because if we're going
to be Talmudic scholars orliterate, in our own experience.
We have to be able toinvestigate it in our own
language, because then there'sspecific meaning and specific
ideas which come from it.
And there's a quote here that Ilove and it's Hafok ba hafok ba
, hafok ba dekulaba.
(34:12):
Turn it over and over again forall as therein.
And it's from Prekeh Avot andit's about the Jewish
relationship.
We're constantly investigating.
It's no surprise that we'rehaving this conversation right,
because we, as Jews, we want toget to it, we want to bullseye
it, we want to debate anddialogue, and that's what people
do when they read the Talmud,right, they read it in Fevrutan,
(34:33):
they read a certain amount, andyou read it with someone else
because you always want to be indiscussion.
That, turning over to me, iswhat Judaism is.
It's this intellectualexploration and again I
apologize to the listenersbecause you've got me excited
and I'm yapping From like anindigeneity perspective to
understand the Torah, the Tanakh, as law.
(34:56):
We come from this unbelievablyrich legal tradition, because
that's what the Torah is.
It's a legal code, right?
Or the laws of the Torah arelegal code, and so, in a sense,
for all of us who engage inthese conversations, we're just
lawyers debating what does theword mean.
What does the essence mean?
Speaker 1 (35:15):
My family would be so happy to hear that I'm a lawyer
.
Thank you for diagnosing mewith lawyer.
I'm so glad you brought up Ruthand her naturalization, because
you might be surprised to learnthat Dashiell Lawrence actually
isn't Jewish, but his partneris Jewish and his kids are
Jewish and he's executivedirector of the Jewish
(35:36):
Independent.
And what was your doctorate in,dash?
Speaker 2 (35:41):
My PhD I looked at the role of Israel and Zionism
in Australian Jewish communitylife.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Yeah, so you have not converted, but you have been
naturalised.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Not in the Ruth sense .
Look, I am glad that you raisedthe question of converts, ben,
because when you were talkingabout the notion of a tribe and
an indigenous tribe, I canimagine that critics of your
book and your thinking would saywell, how do you treat converts
then?
Because they weren't indigenousto the land of Israel, they're
(36:16):
not a part of the tribe.
But you have given anexplanation for that.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
So my mentor, who's the last interviewee in the book
, is Dr Winston Pickett and heconverted 50 years ago and he is
the most Jewish Jew I've evermet.
He's so Jewish.
And I think the thing isthere's a lot of
misunderstanding aboutindigeneity and the role of
genetics within indigeneity isvery complicated and
controversial.
And I will say listen, thereare Jewish genetics, they do
(36:44):
exist.
We don't need to be scared ofthem in a post-Holocaust world.
But if you look at the UnitedNations criteria on indigeneity,
genetics isn't mentioned once.
It's all about culture, it'sall about the traditions, it's
about this continuousrelationship with the land and
other.
You know, I was just in Calgaryand I met a First Nations
(37:05):
person from, I think, territory6, it's called that part of
Canada and he spoke about hisindigenous tribe and says, yeah,
we have initiation, you canadopt non-indigenous people in,
and I think it's a reallywonderful thing because, you
know, my partner is SouthAfrican and we're living in the
UK to get him a British passportand he will become British.
You know, he doesn't lose hisSouth African-ness or whatever,
(37:27):
but he becomes part of this newcommunity and that is exactly
the same way.
And we do have membershipcriteria and the membership
criteria is very clear you canbe born Jewish or you can
convert.
So converts are absolutely acentral and really the story of
Ruth tells us they are centralin Jewish texts and Jewish
liturgy and it's not okay.
(37:49):
So they're not connectedgenetically, but that's not what
makes us indigenous, they'realmost separate conversations
the role of the existence ofJewish genetics and the role
they play in indigeneity.
And so the last thing I will saybefore I hand over to you Dash
because I interrupted you was inthe beginning of the book I
talk about blood quantum, right,the idea of measuring
(38:09):
indigenous blood, and that was apolicy created by the American
and Canadian governments, inessence to limit the number of
people who are allowed anallotment, an allotment of land.
It's not so dissimilar to theNuremberg laws and structure.
And there are some indigenouspeople, non-jewish indigenous
people, who talk about bloodquantum as genocide because they
say, well, the further down yougo, the more watered inverted
(38:32):
commas your blood gets, the lessindigenous you get.
That's not how it works, evenif you are a strong, proud
member of the culture.
And alternatively, you can havesomeone and we see this
particularly in the US right,someone who's like I'm 10%
native.
It's like okay, what about yourinteractions with the culture?
What about your learning?
What about all of the work wehave to do?
That's why I spoke about in thebeginning with my parents, the
(38:54):
act of work of being Jewish.
The last thing I'm going to sayis my partner's not Jewish and
he's not going to convertbecause he was raised Christian
and, as I've said, believes inJesus.
He ticked that box, but I callhim a Jew for Jesus because he's
like Jewish in every other way.
But I said to him, particularlyafter October 7th I said you've
(39:14):
crossed over, you're not Jewishand that's fine, but you do
exist in this, in our world,because he has developed through
years and years I mean we'vebeen together almost 10 years a
relationship with me, obviously,the Jewish people and the land
of Israel.
So I do believe that you can be.
You know we call them likenon-Jewish Jews, right, like
there are people and there arequite a few, but there are
(39:34):
people who cross over and enterinto the community, even if they
don't formally convert ornaturalize.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Ben, the next festival that we have as Jews
coming up is Pesach, if I'm notmistaken, and you mentioned the
Passover, the Pesach Seder.
Now, the Pesach story, thestory of Exodus, is all about
liberation, which also connectsdeeply to the Indigenous nature
(40:03):
of Jewish identity, doesn't it?
Because we are being liberatedfrom Slavery in Egypt, yeah, and
being promised to be deliveredto.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
The land of Israel.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
I'm getting that from the Prince of.
Egypt.
Is this a yes?
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Mr Ben, I want to make sure that you actually have
done all that reading.
You said I know exactly.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
Yeah, I find Pesach to be absolutely fascinating.
First because it seems to beone of the festivals that Jews
celebrate the most.
And it's fascinating becausePesach is when we came together
at Mount Sinai, is when we cametogether as a nation.
That's when the Jewish peoplewere born.
Previously, you had Abraham,according to the Torah, Abraham
coming from Ur, then you hadAbraham, Isaac and Jacob, and
(40:45):
then poor Joseph was shipped offwith his Technicolor dream coat
and we weren't a nation in thatway.
That's when we multiplied,that's when we became a nation.
So Pesach is absolutely centralbecause, you're right, when are
we going to?
Where are we walking to?
For 40 years, it's the land ofIsrael.
But, fascinatingly even, Ithink another layer of our
indigeneity is the origins ofPesach as a festival.
(41:08):
So I mentioned the Pesach Seder, but also Pesach.
There is writing and noteveryone agrees with this, but
there is writing that Pesach wasdeveloped from two distinct
holidays and holidays belongingor let's say, festivals
belonging to specific groupsshepherds and farmers.
So shepherds had lambs.
What is traditionallysacrificed at Pesach, the
(41:28):
Paschal lamb.
What do we eat?
We eat a matzah, which isunleavened bread coming from
wheat, and the other group isthe farmers, and the farmers
were farming wheat and theshepherds were shepherding lamb
and I'm not a shepherd or afarmer, so I don't know the
correct terminology but theyeach basically made sacrifices
in order to kind of guaranteegood harvests or good crops or
good lambs, whatever.
(41:49):
And then it developed and thisis what I find so incredible the
origins of our festivals,Because even Rosh Hashanah Rosh
Hashanah began life as theagricultural new year.
But yeah, they say that.
So not only is Pesach thisholiday which celebrates Jewish
nationhood, and we literally sayL'shanah B'Abe Yerushalayim.
So it's absolutelyextraordinary when you have
(42:10):
anti-Zionist Jews celebratingPesach and it's like what is it?
Is it L'shanah B'Abe Prakav?
No, of course that's insane.
It's L'shanah B'AbeYerushalayim next year in
Jerusalem.
But also its very essence, itsorigins, its roots the Shoresh
come also from the land, becausethe wheat that grew from the
land and the lambs.
So it's absolutelyextraordinary.
(42:31):
And, as I say in the book,there's a lot of holidays
probably most of our holidays,rather, come from the land in
some way, and most Jews don'tknow that, but it doesn't matter
, they're still being celebrated.
Think about what we do at SukkotJews in Australia, Jews in
Scotland.
We shake the lulav and etrog.
It's like we're shaking literalleaves from the land and fruit
(42:51):
and fruit.
I grew up in Scotland, as wediscussed.
Can you imagine anything moreinsane for Scottish people to
pray for rain?
It is unbelievably ridiculousbecause all it does is rain.
But when we pray for rain, aswe do in the Amida, we're not
praying for rain in Scotland,we're praying for rain in Israel
.
Isn't that just incredible?
Yeah, the view was always there,and I think that also what this
(43:16):
idea does is it givespermission for people to claim
this relationship not throughthe lens of religion, Because if
you have religion and if youhave this kind of hierarchy of,
well, this is how you're Jewish,this is how you're not Jewish.
It creates this feeling ofalienation if you don't believe,
if you don't do, Whereasactually what we need to say is
(43:40):
every single person has a rightto engage in their relationship
with Jewishness, with Israel,how they see fit.
You know, I always imagineJewishness or Judaism as an
enormous buffet table and we'reall at this, very loud simcha,
and we get up off our seats andwe go and choose something from
the table.
And you, Dash, might chooseshakshuka, Tammy, you might
choose falafel, I might choosechopped liver, which I probably
would and we're all choosingsomething different, but we're
all going up, we're allinteracting because, ultimately,
(44:02):
it is our birthright, Becausewe also have to remember that as
indigenous people and this isacross the board indigenous
people are the inheritors ofgreat civilizations.
We have inherited this and itdoesn't belong to us.
We inherit it for the moment.
We're here to take care of it,to mend it before we pass it on.
So we have to always ask whatare we passing on?
How are we interacting with it?
(44:23):
How are we presenting it?
And it's not about changingthings, you know.
It's not about trying to quoteProfessor Umbridge from Harry
Potter.
What does she say?
Progress for progress sake.
Right, she doesn't like that.
But we're trying to go back tothe essence.
We're not saying we can'tevolve.
We're not saying the PESACstory can't evolve.
And the last thing I'll say, tobring the little bit about
(44:45):
Pesach whether you believe ornot believe it doesn't matter,
because we as an indigenouspeople, we as a distinct
civilization, we're allowed totell our own stories and tell
our own myths.
The Greeks do it, the Romans doit, every other people in the
world create stories to explaintheir origins.
And I actually think theTorah's perspective is rooted,
at the very least, in historicalmemory, so it's like really
(45:08):
historic recalling somethingthat did happen.
It doesn't mean it's all true,but it doesn't matter, it
doesn't have to be so.
Even if you're in verticalcommas again a secular Jew and
you don't believe in God, youdon't believe the Torah was
written by God, it doesn'tmatter.
These myths are our foundingstories.
They're supremely important andif you do believe in God, then
wonderful, good for you,fantastic.
(45:28):
But they're not mutuallyexclusive.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
A good way to sign off.
Thank you so much for coming inand talking to us on A Shame to
Admit.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
My pleasure.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
That was Ben M Freeman.
His book the Jews andIndigenous People is out now,
and his other two books are alsoin all good bookstores.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
You've been listening to A Shame to Admit.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
With me Tammy Sussman and executive director of TJI,
dr Dashiell Lawrence.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
If you like the podcast, then leave a positive
review.
It really does help otherpeople find this show.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
You can tell us what you're ashamed to admit via the
contact form on the JewishIndependent website or by
emailing ashamed at thejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
As always, thanks for your support.
Go make yourself some somespaghetti.
Look out for us next week ciaoyou.
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