April 7, 2025 • 50 mins
Why does the Australian Jewish community need its own climate advocacy network? In this episode, Tami and Dash sit down with Joel Lazar - CEO of the Jewish Climate Network - to discuss the intersection of Jewish values and climate responsibility. Joel explains how Jewish teachings inspire environmental stewardship, busts some common myths, shares some illuminating ‘factoids’ and tackles the challenges of climate advocacy in a polarised political landscape.
Articles relevant to this episode:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/out-of-a-synagogue-in-flames-a-compulsion-for-climate-action
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/inserting-climate-into-the-jewish-conversation
Article mentioned in this episode:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/should-mum-or-dad-have-the-safe-sex-chat
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in
Australia, the Middle East andthe world at large, but
struggling to keep up with thenew cycle?
If you answered yes, thenyou've come to the right place.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm Dash Lawrence from the Jewish Independent and
in this podcast series, yourthird cousin, Tammy Sussman, and
I call on experts and eachother to address all the
ignorant questions that youmight be too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Join us as we have a go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent podcast Ash.
Shame to Admit.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Hello everyone, I'm Tammy.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
You're also the 2004 Mariah College Vice-Captain.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Thank you for reminding our listeners.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
And I'm Dash Lawrence .
Speaker 1 (01:05):
For first-time listeners.
Tell them what you do at theJewish.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Independent.
I am the executive director,and what do you do at the Jewish
Independent?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I come to the headquarters in Sydney sometimes
and I help myself do somecomplimentary tea.
That's what I do at the JewishIndependent.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
How is our tea collection?
Speaker 1 (01:25):
I do at the Jewish Independent.
How is our tea collection?
You've got a great teacollection there.
I also write content, I makethis podcast and I am the Jewish
Independent's agony aunt orcousin with their new sex dating
relationships.
Column Sex and the Shtetl Dash.
Last week I sent you a text alittle bit out of the blue.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
On a Saturday night at about 10 o'clock.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
yes, it's on a Saturday night around 10 pm.
I sent you a text and the textread hey Dash, what keeps you up
at night?
Speaker 3 (01:57):
And you said I did.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
What did you reply?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I think I said not much.
I fall asleep within seconds ofmy head hitting the pillow most
nights.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Were you being facetious, or is that true?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
No, it's true.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Are you serious?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
I can count on one hand the number of times that I
have been awake longer than afew minutes in the last 12
months.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
What's that about?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I am literally out within seconds.
I'm also getting up at 4.30 inthe morning, so swings and
roundabouts.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
In answer to your question, I'm not lying in bed
worrying about a long list ofworries and concerns and
anxieties.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Okay, so what time of day do you ruminate, then, or
cogitate, which is a word youtaught me recently.
When are you at peak cogitation?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
The commute, sometimes in the car, can be a
time for cogitation rumination.
Those are the moments where youactually finally have to stop
during the middle of a day andyou don't get the opportunity to
fall asleep, and so your mindis still running at a million
(03:13):
miles.
That can be a time for theworries to pop up.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
What fears are at the foreground and what's in the
background.
Let's start with foreground.
Treat this as a therapy session.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Great.
You and the rest of the ashamedto admit listeners.
Just give me dot points.
Give me a list.
Five things that make youanxious.
Oh look, it could be anythingfrom did I order milk in the
Woolworths order that I've thengot to pick up later in the day?
Have I overstayed my park anddo I have to go move the car now
(03:47):
?
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, big one, important one, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Have I uploaded the show for the week?
Because Tammy's going to comedown on me like a ton of bricks
and there's only so many times Ican deal with her
disappointment.
You know, is the planet goingto overcome the imminent climate
crisis?
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I'm so glad you mentioned that, because I was
really worried that we hadabsolutely nothing in common and
we clearly have very differentspiral styles.
Yours waits until you have amoment.
My spirals don't wait, they'rejust 24-7 rumination.
So I do find it hard to fallasleep at night and some of the
(04:32):
things that keep me awakeupcoming elections,
international elections, the warthere are a few, but you know
which war is?
You know, at the forefront ofmy mind AI, artificial
intelligence.
It's coming for my job, my kidsand their education and their
(04:52):
schooling.
I was going to say my marriage,but I guess now it's my divorce
.
That's quite often just inthere playing over and over
again.
And then, on top of that,there's climate change.
I think that's the one areawhere our fears overlap.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
In a time when so much attention and focus has
naturally been on Israel and itswar seems counterintuitive to
talk about, or to be thinkingabout these bigger existential
questions facing the entireglobe.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
You're right.
A lot of Jewish people who caredeeply about the climate and
climate change feel like theyhave these two competing
existential threats right now.
Existential threats right now.
There's the existential threatof you know the Jewish existence
and having a safe place to live, a Jewish homeland, and then
(05:52):
worrying about the earth andwhat climate change is doing to
our safety in that context aswell, and so that's why we
decided to interview Joel Lazar,who is the CEO of the Jewish
Climate Network.
He's been the CEO for the lastfour and a half years.
(06:13):
Joel is a powerful storyteller.
He's a thoughtful collaboratorand passionate mentor.
His skills and experience arediverse.
They span commercial law,educational program design,
jewish youth leadership andscript writing.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Joel's passion for Judaism runs deep.
He was born and raised in theMelbourne Jewish community and
has held various leadershippositions in Jewish youth
movements and synagogues.
Above all, Joel firmly believesthat the Australian Jewish
community has an important roleto play in addressing the
impacts of climate change thatare now unfolding, while also
(06:50):
enjoying the social and economicbenefits flowing to those who
are taking swift and effectiveaction climate network before.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
they're a growing network of Aussie Jews stepping
up to the climate challenge.
They're motivated by Jewishtradition and values and their
mission is to harness thecapabilities and creativity of
the Australian Jewish communityto accelerate the transition to
a zero emissions world.
If you're someone like me whogets really overwhelmed by all
(07:24):
of this, I can assure you thatthis conversation with Joel
Lazar will help ease some ofthat overwhelm and you'll leave
the conversation feeling moreequipped with tools of how you
can take action.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Joel Azar.
Welcome to the Ashamed to Admitstudio.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
Great to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Joel, I think we should begin today's interview
with the question most commonlypresented to you, and that is
why do we need a Jewish?
Speaker 4 (08:17):
climate network Precisely?
Please tell us.
Nice Look, it's a question Iget a lot probably the most
asked since I started in thisrole four and a half years ago
and it's a fair one.
We have hundreds of climategroups already, and we have
hundreds of Jewish groupsalready, so do we need another
Jewish climate group?
And I think the answer I oftengive to that is based on what
(08:38):
Sir David Attenborough tells usnow, which is that climate
change is really no longer ascientific problem.
We've known the scientific issuefor decades.
Now it's actually acommunications problem and
knowing that our community andevery community that has the
opportunity to get involved inclimate change action need the
(08:58):
right messengers.
They need people they can trustto give them information that's
credible, from people who theyhave an affinity with, who they
like, and that's just basicsocial science.
It's the tribalism of humanbeings that we don't accept the
same message, no matter whogives it to us.
We accept it from people who wefeel closeness to and
(09:19):
connection to.
So the JCN was founded becauseour board and our team and our
volunteers, our entire ecosystemis seeping with Jewishness, and
that's one of the key toolsthat we need in order to cut
through to the Jewish communityand give our community
everything they need to getactive.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Joel, how does a good Jewish boy from the Bagel Belt,
an alumni of Yavna Liebner, agraduate lawyer, end up becoming
involved in climate advocacy?
Speaker 4 (09:48):
Well, I would say, a couple of years into corporate
law, I started to scan foropportunities that would feel
more, I guess, aligned for me,where I felt purposeful, getting
up every day and spending ahuge chunk of my day on whatever
it was I was working on.
And about five, six years ago,I just dove deeper into the
science.
I read books, watched a bunchof YouTube videos and just very
(10:11):
quickly realized, hmm, we'rehalfway through possibly the
most important decade of themillennium for the human species
and for the Jewish people andfor Israel.
If we don't turn this shiparound on climate change and
emissions and nature loss andbiodiversity loss, we won't have
a chance, basically 10 yearsfrom now.
And so I just kind of imaginedmyself sitting in a rocking
chair.
(10:31):
I'm 85 years old, I'm lookingback at my life and I'm thinking
am I happy with what I did, thechoices I made?
And I kind of had this feelingthat I would regret having not
gotten involved in doingsomething about climate change
when I learned what I hadlearned.
I would regret it.
I don't know what I would tellmy kids if they said oh, you
found out in the early 2020sthat shit was hitting the fan
(10:53):
and you just continued on withyour life.
That wouldn't be a very nicefeeling.
So yeah, I scanned around andJCN had just been founded by an
amazing group of communityleaders and they were looking
for their first CEO.
And I just thought let's do it.
You know, time is of theessence.
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Was it a classic social justice or environmental
orientated family that you grewup in?
Speaker 4 (11:16):
I think we always had good values.
My mom was always a member ofthe teachers union.
I went to Hineni where Ilearned how to be a good mensch.
Union I went to Hineni where Ilearned how to be a good mensch.
Yavner gave me great valuesalso, but none of us were
environmentalists.
None of us strapped ourselvesto trees on the weekend.
That's not in my history.
(11:39):
Me getting involved in climatewas just a very kind of
objective realization, lookingat the science, looking at the
solutions, looking at the speedat which we were going and just
kind of piecing it all togetherand then looking at how the
Jewish community could beleaders on this and we weren't,
and it was just kind of anatural conclusion.
So there's nothing embedded inmy family, necessarily, but I
think it's a kind of it's acholent of values that kind of
ushered me towards thisdirection.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
A cholent of values.
That is amazing.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Yeah, you know, there's the beans and there's
the.
I don't know, I don't makechocolate very often.
I don't know what else goesinto it Some potatoes, some meat
.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Clearly you're quite Jewish, Joel.
You mentioned Hineni, which isa Jewish youth movement.
We have some listeners whoaren't Jewish.
So clearly your Jewish identityhas influenced your approach.
Are there any kind of Jewishteachings or traditions that
align with climateresponsibility?
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Look there are.
I'll answer that in two ways.
The first is actually through astory.
I just can't help myself buttell a story?
Speaker 1 (12:40):
No, we love stories.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
But there's this famous story, famous story in
the Talmud, in the Jewish Talmud, where our sages tell of a man
called Choni who's walking Idon't know somewhere through the
fields and he sees this otherguy who's planting a carob tree.
And Choni looks at him and hesays mate, like what are you
doing?
It takes about 70 years for acarob tree to mature.
You'll be long dead before yousee the fruits of this tree.
(13:07):
What's the point?
And the man says the honey.
He says look around.
And he sees all these othermature carob trees that are all
their beautiful, fruiting, andhe says you know, my ancestors
planted these carob trees andthey didn't see the fruits of
them.
And I now get to enjoy them.
So I too will plant a carobtree for my kids and generations
to come, and for me thatepitomises the real depth of
(13:27):
what Judaism has to say aboutthis climate change challenge,
that where the Jewish people arefundamentally a people who have
the long view.
We have a long collectivememory into the past and we have
a long view to the future.
We don't just think about theday to day and climate change is
inherently a long term problem,a multi decadal problem.
So that's really inspiring, andthere's a whole list of other
(13:50):
Jewish lines that you know.
Oblige us not to waste, whichincludes not wasting energy, not
wasting resources, cruelty toanimals.
The Sabbath, which is all aboutresting and letting the earth
rest.
There's, you know, a massivelist of these things and and
they're all beautiful and I drawon them from time to time, but
I think that multi-generationalstory is a real powerful one.
(14:11):
From Judaism, the second part ofJudaism, which is more about
Jewish lived experience thanJewish texts, that inspires,
that can inspire us around.
Climate is around like the ideaof the status quo versus change
, and, like the jewish people,we never accept the status quo.
That's just not who we areright.
If we had accepted the statusquo, we'd be long gone.
(14:33):
We look at the societies aroundus, especially when we're in
times of turmoil and strife, andwe say, like this isn't
inevitable, we're not fatalistic, we can have agency in changing
the course of history, andthat's been part of our
ingenuity, I think, over time,and I think that's the exact
spirit that we need in order toovercome climate change problems
(14:54):
.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
On the topic of status quo, then, and not
accepting it, are you able totell me something a little bit
off-brand, maybe that you'velearned about climate change
over the past four and a halfyears in your role as CEO?
Anything that surprised you,that may, in turn, surprise our
(15:15):
listeners.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
I will answer the question with another question,
and that is it's a technicalnerdy question which is how much
renewable energy to either ofyou think is in the australian
electricity market, like all theelectricity that comes into our
light bulbs and our heating,etc.
All different types of sourcesof energy.
(15:36):
What percentage comes fromrenewable energy, do you think?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
I'm gonna go with 18 high 18.
What do you think, dash?
I'm ashamed to go with 18, high18%.
What do you think, Dash?
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I'm ashamed to admit I don't know how much currently
we have that is generated byrenewable energy.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Take a punt.
There's no shame.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I mean, I think the potential is huge.
Obviously, we've got vast, vastresources, natural resources,
and we can be utilising the sunmuch better than what we
currently do.
I'm going to say 8%, no half ofhigh, I'm going to say 9%.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
Okay, we've got a 9% 18%.
In the quarter ending Decemberlast year, 46% of our
electricity came from renewableenergy 46.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
Pretty good.
Tammy's not that impressed,doesn't seem that impressed.
She's like okay, if you say so,things have come a long way.
Things have come a long way,yeah, and the average last year
was 42%, and there was a time inNovember last year where it was
75%, 75%, right.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Wow, what happened.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
It's a very sunny day , basically Sunny, windy day
yeah, perfect combination ofhuge amounts of sun, huge
amounts of wind, all beingcaptured by wind farms and solar
farms and things like that.
So I mean, that's somethingthat continually amazes and
surprises me.
For people who feel a bitdespondent, like are we going to
get there?
One of the main things we haveto do is get to as close to 100
(17:06):
renewable energy as possible.
We've got to get off fossilfuels, and the fact that we're
already at about 42 is justphenomenal.
So we're track.
We're getting there already.
We just need to go a lot faster, and I think that might
surprise a lot of audiencemembers that we're actually that
far along already and weshouldn't do anything that kind
of takes us off track.
So that's pretty cool.
(17:26):
There's a commonly misunderstoodidea around, like what global
heating even is.
You might have heard this ideathat we can't go above 1.5
degrees of warming since theindustrial revolution, or people
talk about 1.5 degrees or twodegrees.
You might see this in the newsand there's a misconception that
this is like the weatheroutside, like oh, we can't go
(17:47):
from 27 degrees Celsius to 28and a half, but obviously like
that's not so bad.
Why would that be a problem?
And I often tell people tothink more about the predicament
we're in, as though the planetis like a human body and our
human body is very carefullycalibrated to correct me if I'm
wrong like 37 and a half degreesor something like that, and we
(18:07):
have a very severe temperature.
If we go a couple of degreesabove that and a couple of
degrees more, we're dead.
We're brain dead, it's, and sothe system is.
The planet system is like thatas well.
So when you think 1.52 degrees,every fraction of a degree
increases extreme weather eventsby many folds, and so that's
(18:27):
why those little micro degreesare really important.
So those are kind of like somenerdy things that people might
not have known.
And then I'll say something offbrand, which is about recycling.
Okay, I talk to people who askme what do I do?
I say I work for the JewishClimate Network, and then they
tell me about all of theirrecycling practices.
They tell me, oh, it's so hard,and my neighbor puts it in the
(18:49):
wrong bin.
You know, I'm okay putting thison record, but I did a little
back of the envelope calculationlast night and I figured out
that if you spent a minute a dayagonising about your recycling.
You'd spend about six and a halfhours per year on your
recycling practices six and ahalf hours and I'm giving
permission to our audience touse half of that on highly
(19:13):
effective climate action.
If you spent three of thosehours meeting your local member
of parliament three times a yeardoing the next thing on your
home if you can afford it, likewhacking on solar panels or the
next bit of electrification, or,if you can't, switching your
bank account or yoursuperannuation funds to one that
doesn't invest in fossil fuels,or just signing up to the JCA
(19:35):
newsletter so you continue to beinspired and read it for five
minutes a month, that will be ahundred times more impactful.
The truth is, we don't haveinfinite amounts of attention
and brain space to do all thethings, so you have to choose.
And if you're spending six anda half hours on recycling and
nothing else on highly effectiveclimate action, I would
encourage you to just drop therecycling a bit and go and visit
(19:56):
your MP and have a relationshipwith your MP.
I'm going to get cancelled forthat.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
As Australia heads to the polls, voters are focused
on the usual issues health,education and the cost of living
, but for the past 18 months,the conflict in Israel, Gaza and
beyond has cast a long shadowover Australian society.
Free Palestine Free, freePalestine.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Thousands of police patrols have been deployed
across Victoria's Jewishcommunities in a bid to stamp
out racist intimidation.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
The surge in anti-Semitism has deeply
impacted the Jewish community.
The surge in anti-Semitism hasdeeply impacted the Jewish
community.
There is an evil at work inthis country.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
No fire, no vandalism , no paint, no threats, no
intimidation.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
The role of our political leaders in maintaining
social cohesion has never beenmore critical.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
The awful anti-Semitism chanted by some of
the protesters at the SydneyOpera House is beyond offensive.
It is a betrayal of ourAustralian values.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
We are having rolling terrorist attacks in our
community and the Prime Ministerhas been dragged, kicking and
screaming.
I'm Rob Caldor and IntentionsTransplanted.
Series 2 will explore a coupleof key questions.
Is anti-Jewish racism an issueof broader national significance
and how will this electionshape Australia's social fabric?
Join me as I chat withjournalists and contributors
(21:25):
from the Jewish Independent.
To unpack it all, we'll diveinto the role of the Muslim vote
, key battleground seats withsignificant Jewish populations,
and how the major parties arepositioning themselves on Israel
, gaza and the future of socialcohesion in Australia.
New episodes drop weekly in thelead-up to the election.
(21:46):
Subscribe now, wherever you getyour podcasts.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
What I am really interested in understanding from
you is in climate change isconsidered, unfortunately, a
(22:29):
cause of the left, primarily acause of sort of woke left-wing
politics.
This is not my view, but Ithink this is the reality that
we're facing, that it isunfortunately being bundled in
with an issue that only the leftis concerned with or the elites
, and this is only going to getworse, I expect, with a Trump
administration, and I think thatthe Jewish community is not
immune, unfortunately, fromfalling into the trap of
(22:53):
adopting that mindset.
I'm wondering how you are ableto kind of break free from this
falling back into an issue thatonly left-wing elites, woke
people should and are beingconcerned about.
How are you able to and whatare you doing to break free of
(23:16):
that dynamic?
Speaker 4 (23:18):
It's a great question .
It's possibly the question, thequestion of all questions.
There's a lot of different waysI think about this and JCN
thinks about this.
I'll start the answer with somefactoids about the history of
conservative and Republicaninvolvement in environmental
action.
Richard Nixon, republicanPresident of the United States,
(23:43):
was a huge environmentalchampion and he established the
Environmental Protection Agencyin America.
Malcolm Fraser, liberalAustralian Prime Minister,
founded the AustralianConservation Foundation and
passed a series of reallyimportant environmental laws.
It has not always been the casethat quote unquote the left or
(24:05):
more progressive parts ofsociety have championed
environmental custodianship andstewardship.
Weird shit happened inAustralia, especially by the way
, whereby it kind of gotcordoned off into a left
ideological issue.
And it didn't have to be thisway In the UK for a long time.
It's perfectly bipartisan.
(24:25):
Boris Johnson, very strong onclimate, a Tory leader.
So it's not inbuilt into leftideology that they get climate
and the rest of the world haveto deal with other right-wing
conservative economic things.
So I would just remind ouraudience that it kind of belongs
to everyone and it kind ofoscillates between who champions
it over time.
To that I would add Jewishtradition has held, like Tammy
(24:50):
asked me before, has held thesevalues for thousands of years,
before the left even existed,even the concept or the
political parties.
So I feel like there's thisopportunity to reclaim those
parts of our jewish values andthe songbook that we've sung
from for so long and say wait asecond, like this is our thing.
(25:10):
How did we cede the territoryto like a niche of society?
And then the last thing I'llsay is climate is not this
appendix to the rest of life?
Right, I had my appendix outwhen I was in kindergarten, so I
actually don't know what it'slike to have anything to do with
an appendix.
(25:30):
But climate is not an appendixto life.
It impacts deeply the economy,it impacts public health.
It impacts deeply the economy,it impacts public health, it
impacts the most vulnerable.
It impacts everything that wecall life.
And so for anyone who championslife, for anyone who champions
as good, sensible economicmanagement, for anyone who
champions good public healthoutcomes, a climate lens is
(25:52):
critical to doing all of thosethings really well.
And on the Israel and Jewishcommunity fronts and this is
probably the cherry on topIsrael is in a climate hotspot
in the Middle East.
It stands to suffer most fromclimate impacts, from extreme
heat and from droughts more thanmany other countries.
So people who care aboutIsrael's long-term prosperity,
(26:13):
particularly social cohesion inthe Middle East, where droughts
and extreme weather canexacerbate social collapse.
And social collapse in theMiddle East is never good for
Israel and it's also not goodfor Jewish communities around
the world.
Again, there's an invitation tothink about climate as a deeply
Jewish issue, and one that ourcommunity should actually be
(26:35):
spending a lot more time andenergy preparing for.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Joel, I totally hear all those things that you're
saying, and yet I'm alsowondering to what extent has the
JCN suffered since October 7th,when I know, unfortunately,
there have been segments thatthe climate, the wider climate
(27:21):
advocacy network, has betrayedthem or that they don't
understand the position ofJewish members of their side.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
So there's a few really important elements here
and I think it's important toseparate them out into pieces.
The first is that, on the whole, the majority of the climate
groups and climate leaders inaustralia that we've interacted
with or discussed climate policywith have been great.
(27:53):
Either they have what I would,they've done what I would call
staying in their lane.
You know they're focused ontheir core mission of climate,
because we can't all getinvolved in every social justice
and global issue that arisesevery day, and I think staying
in their lane has been importantto maintaining their integrity
and credibility as climatemessengers.
(28:15):
Some of them have also beenincredible allies and reached
out shortly after October 7.
We've had deep, extensivedialogue about how their
organizations will have Jewishvolunteers, jewish staff, jewish
board members, jewish donorsand just general Jewish
stakeholders who are in a lot ofpain right now and have really
(28:38):
welcomed the opportunity to hearfrom me, as someone with deep
lived experience from within theJewish community and who
understands the climate world,also to share with them what
that experience is, to increasetheir empathy and their
understanding and their nuance,and I've seen a lot of really
beautiful fruits come from that.
And then there's been a, Iwould say, a vocal minority, as
is and I've seen a lot of reallybeautiful fruits come from that
(28:59):
and then there's been a, Iwould say, a vocal minority as
is often the case with a lot ofthis stuff like a rabid vocal
minority, where you sort ofchoose how much attention you
want to pay to those, becauseyou could easily spend all of
your time and days focusing onthe loudest and angriest and
least empathetic people, and mygeneral philosophy is more to
embolden and strengthen andbuild ties with allies in order
(29:22):
to increase the circle offriends that we have, who
understand our experience, andthat naturally they will then
become the dominant force andpartners.
And then the minority who arethe most destructive remain on
the fringe.
And the fringe still needs tobe dealt with because the
fringes can become themainstream very quickly.
(29:42):
That's been probably one of thelessons of jewish history that
what appears to be a fringe ideaabout the jews suddenly is in
the mainstream and, holy shit,how did we get here?
So we've got to deal with thefringes, but we can't forget
almost the silent majority inthe middle who want to
understand, who want to connect,who maybe just don't have the
knowledge or the access to aJewish voice who's willing to
(30:04):
hear them out and share.
So we've been doing a lot ofthat since October 7, and it's
been really fruitful and quiteencouraging to know that wait a
second.
There is a model here forpartnering with people in
different progressive and socialmovements, and I think that's
probably led to what I believeis the climate movement becoming
kind of the least outspoken onantisemitism, like the least
(30:27):
antisemitic, shall we say, ofmany of the other progressive
movements, except for Greta.
Except for Greta, but also,let's set aside a moment for
Greta, because I think that'swhat we all want to talk about.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
We all want to talk about Greta Thunberg.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
Let's remember, greta is one human being.
She's one human being with alarge audience, but there are
millions and millions of otherpeople who do not get airtime,
who are not in the news, who areshaping society, who are not
Greta.
So it would be unwise to kindof cast out an entire cause
(31:03):
because there's an individualwithin that cause who we dislike
.
We wouldn't really do that.
I would hope we wouldn't dothat with kind of other causes.
And the fundamental science ofclimate is still there,
regardless of Greta right, gretaor no Greta.
We are getting close to 1.5degrees of warming and we need
to do something about it and itwill impact us.
So we have to find a way tokind of act in spite of Greta,
(31:25):
potentially.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Joel, I was interested in the fact that
people have been so focused onwhat's going on in Israel and
the war with Hamas that you knowin some ways it must have made
your job so much more difficultin the last 18-plus months
because you know people arehurting and their thoughts with
the hostages, thoughts with theconflict itself, must be very
(31:50):
difficult to get a word in about.
You know the other very bigexistential matter of the fact
that the world is getting hotterand action is more needed now
than ever before.
Speaker 4 (32:04):
Yeah, I think it's harder for anyone in this
community who is trying to bringattention to something other
than the hostages and the war,which makes complete sense, Like
the human brain can only holdso much and we are at this
complete existential crisisright now, which is why I'm very
careful to not overimpose or toask people to think any
(32:28):
differently, just because Ihappen to be thinking about this
a lot as well, but just to meetpeople where they're at and
find those gentle avenuestowards doing more on climate.
That feels like not anadditional psychological burden
but can be sort of justintegrated into the current
state of affairs.
(32:48):
A couple of examples of thatare you know, there were
Israelis who were killed andtaken hostage, who were real
environmental champions fordecades, and a way to both
maintain our attention on thewar and the hostages and also
think about the substance of thelife work of some of those
people is a way to kind ofhonour both our attention on the
(33:11):
war but also to bring attentionto what's happening on climate
and sustainability issues.
And that's felt quite good todo that and affirming and I kind
of just go where there issufficient energy and I think
the Jewish community is notmonolithic.
It's not like in a block.
Every single person is 100%maxed out at all times, thinking
(33:33):
about this one thing right, weebb and we flow.
Sometimes there are littlepockets who feel like, oh, they
can come up for air for whateverreason.
There's a million differentreasons why someone might feel
they can come up for air.
And so in those moments it'slike, hey, jcn is still here,
the climate crisis is still here.
I mean, that's not like a funmessage necessarily, like now
you can turn your attention toanother existential problem, but
(33:54):
we maintain our presence.
We continue to put outofferings of resources and
events and opportunities forpeople to get involved so that
when they can tap back in,they're ready, and I think
that's been a wise approach sofar you mentioned that the
Jewish community is not amonolith and, and to me that's
(34:15):
so true, especially as we leadinto an election.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
So for our international listeners, here in
Australia we're about to votein our federal election and it's
at this time where I see a lotof stuff on social media from
all different parts of theJewish community, people, you
(34:41):
know, pushing differentpolitical agendas.
So I'm just curious to know, aswe approach this election in
May, joel, what do you see asthe most pressing climate
challenges facing Australians,and how much influence do you
(35:01):
think individual voters orfaith-based communities have on
shaping those government climatepolicies?
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Excellent question.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
I think the challenges we face as a country
in the lead up to the electionare the same, regardless of if
we had an election in a month ornot.
Our emissions are rising.
We need to get them down,Extreme weather is proliferating
, so all of these things arejust there.
There are backdrops to thecurrent election and, you know,
the scientific reality doesn'tcare that we have an election in
(35:37):
four weeks.
So that's like one littlepreface.
I would say that as we getcloser to an election, our
representatives and candidateswho are vying for our votes are
out and about more than theyusually are.
They're talking to people,they're hugging babies, they're
kissing horses, they're doingall kinds of stuff, and this is
(35:59):
a chance to speak to them morethan we usually get a chance to
speak to them, and I think wecommonly underestimate the power
of the average punter's voicein the life of a politician I
often like to think about thisis going to sound a bit strange,
but the relationship between usand our politicians should be
(36:21):
like a healthy, long-termmarriage.
A healthy, long-term marriagehas two key parts to it.
It starts off with the wedding.
The wedding day.
Very happy, very excitingWedding day is election day.
This is where we decide ifwe're going to be together for
the next X period.
Right, but no one is under anyillusion that a marriage is the
(36:43):
result of a good wedding.
Wedding is part one.
More important is part two,which is every single day that
we cultivate a relationship withthat partner, where we teach
each other things, where wepositively influence one another
to become better versions ofourselves.
And we don't relate to ourpoliticians this way, and that's
why many of us don't trustpoliticians.
(37:03):
Trust in politicians is at anall-time low across most
countries.
But if we shifted our mindsetto wait a second, I want to be
in relationship with this personfor the years to come.
I want to go to their office.
I want to share how I feelabout things.
I want to share ideas with them.
They want to hear this becausethat lets them know this is what
my voters care about.
So to some extent, yes, we havean election coming up.
(37:26):
It's very exciting.
Go talk to those politicians.
Maybe there's a slim chance ofinfluencing a policy in the last
month before the election daycomes.
It's probably a little bit slimbecause a lot of these big
decisions have already been madeby the parties in recent months
.
But there is a chance.
But I would encourage people tothink more about the day after
the election and to say itdoesn't matter who you voted for
(37:49):
.
I've heard a beautiful phraserecently which was doesn't
matter who you voted for.
I've heard a beautiful phraserecently which was don't change
who you vote for.
Change who you vote for.
It's not about the person, it'sabout changing the person you
happen to vote for.
So, whoever that person happensto be on the left of the
spectrum, the right or themiddle, see the opportunity to
change that person to care moreabout climate.
(38:10):
Every party has this amazingpotential to be a leader on
climate issues from its ownunique philosophy and history,
as I mentioned before, and seeyourself as that marriage
partner with your politician.
Go propose to your MP and seewhat happens.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
I tried it in my own marriage and it didn't work.
But you know what?
I still have hope and I'm goingto give it a go with my local
MP.
Joel, can you just like tell mewho to vote for?
Speaker 4 (38:42):
Wouldn't it be so nice if someone could just make
the decision for you.
I'll make my little legaldisclaimer we are a
not-for-profit.
We can't blah, blah, blah, so wedon't tell people who to vote
for.
But what I will say, what Ithink is a little bit behind the
question, especially thattension in people who care about
climate and want to vote forparties that are going to do
(39:03):
something about it, like theGreens, don't own climate.
I'm just going to put it outthere.
I know it's in their name greatbranding but they don't own the
issue I mentioned earlier.
Richard Nixon, the EPA, malcolmFraser, australian Conservation
Foundation.
Talk to the politician who youcare about, who you want to vote
(39:26):
for, to do more about climatechange.
That is the most potent thingyou can do to get change in this
country.
And I will say what's soimportant about that is
bipartisanship.
We haven't used this phrase yetin this interview, but it's a
really important one.
I want listeners to take away nosingle party.
What does it mean again?
So bipartisanship is that allparties agree on a particular
(39:51):
issue.
Right, it is highly destructivewhen one party it doesn't
matter who one party makes adecision on some awesome climate
policy and then three yearslater, the other one gets
elected and says we're canningthe whole thing and every time
we flip flop between them, wecan't make long-term decisions.
Investors can't build hugerenewable projects that take
(40:11):
decades to come to fruition.
So the most important thing wecan do, especially as a Jewish
community, is to fosterbipartisanship on climate change
issues so that all the parties,like I said, greens, don't own
this.
We need to get all of the majorparties on board with the key
policies that help us shape thenext 10 years, 20 years, 30
years into the future.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Great, joel, we've asked you some really big
questions.
In fact, you even said we askedyou the question.
But don't peak too soon,because another vital question
that I need to address is thisone If you, joel Lazar, ceo of
(40:53):
the Jewish Climate Network,could sit down with any
historical Jewish figure todiscuss climate action, who
would it be and why?
Speaker 4 (41:04):
I've got the most nerdy answer that any person
could possibly come up with tothis question.
Go for it.
It's a guy called Simon Kuznets.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Okay, what's his vibe ?
Speaker 4 (41:18):
Kuznets' vibe.
He was a Jew born in Russia in1901, who fled to America in
1922 because of antisemitism,and he is he's also a Nobel
Prize winner of economics.
In 1971, he won the Nobel Prizefor economics and he is the
founding father of GDP grossdomestic products.
(41:41):
Okay, he was charged with theUnited States government with
coming up with a figure duringthe Great Depression that would
give them a reliable measure ofnational output you know how is
this country faring and he cameup with this concept called
national income and that wasultimately used by the UN and
(42:02):
the World Bank and theInternational Monetary Fund,
ultimately to become GDP.
Now, GDP is like now, thisnumber one figure that most
societies use as the measure ofwhether or not the country is on
track, prosperous.
But Sir Nicholas Stern, who wasthe chief economist at the World
Bank, would say that climatechange is the greatest market
(42:23):
failure the world has ever seen.
Climate change is the greatestmarket failure the world has
ever seen and that is because,as we proliferated fossil fuels,
fossil fuel companies neverpaid for the pollution that they
created while producing energy,and they put that out onto all
of us.
Basically, they externalized itinstead of internalizing it,
(42:44):
and that's why Stern says it'sthe greatest mark of failure.
So the idea of GDP being thissingle measure of holy growth,
telling know, telling us ifsociety is on track.
But clearly we have beengrowing for centuries now so in
theory we should be entirelyprosperous with no problems.
But we obviously have bigproblems.
We have prospered but we alsohave problems.
And Kuznets always cautionedpeople.
(43:06):
He said do not use GDP as theultimate measure of wellbeing
because it's going to excludeimportant things like
environmental impact, unpaidwork, people in homes who don't
get paid, quality of life,happiness, so all of these
measures.
So I want to sit down withKuznets and I want to say you're
warning people not to use GDPas the single measure of
(43:26):
happiness.
The secret is they ended updoing it, Sorry.
Do you have any ideas about howto include in GDP an additional
measure for long-termprosperity for human beings, so
that that gets included in ourmeasure for happiness, long-term
?
Speaker 1 (43:44):
I think I now know why you're the CEO of the Jewish
Climate Network.
Speaker 4 (43:50):
It's so dirty.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
I chose Grandma Yedta from the Nanny.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
I love Grandma Yetta.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Maybe we could double date.
How do you reckon Grandma Yettawould get along with your guy?
Speaker 4 (44:04):
With cousins.
Yeah, I think after a fewmartinis they would get on like
a house on fire.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Joel, I'm sure by now our listeners would have
recognised that there is anamazing capacity in you to
reframe problems and to leaninto positivity and into action,
when I think for many peoplethe instinct would be pessimism
(44:34):
defeat anxiety.
So perhaps, to finish up theconversation today, give us some
idea of how you have been ableto manage and contain your own
anxieties about the climatechange challenge before us, and
perhaps leave us with some ofthe tools that you've learnt or
(44:56):
that you think are worthconsidering, because I know
there'll be people listening tothis conversation who don't have
that instinct for positivity orthat instinct for action that
you have.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
He's looking at me, but there are lots of people
like me out there, so help Joel.
Speaker 4 (45:16):
Look the interesting thing I'll go back to.
When you asked if I got thisfrom my family, I don't think I
have an instinct necessarily inthe sense that it's innate in me
to want to work on this issueall day.
I think it's very much aneveryday person problem and an
everyday person opportunity.
A few tools that I use to getby week to week.
(45:36):
One is a phrase that Iabsolutely love, which is action
is the antidote to despair.
Action is the antidote todespair when we don't know how
the future will unfold.
Doing something naturally helpsus feel like we have some
control over that future.
I have the privilege of beingable to work on this all week,
(46:00):
so I'm often getting thatantidote, that little kind of
injection in me, and I think alot of people in our network
have found that to be true.
No matter how small having aconversation with a friend about
how they put solar panels ontheir roof suddenly you feel
that little injection of pride.
Like I said, sending a letterto an MP or even just sharing
(46:21):
your struggle, your anxiety withsomebody else who also shares
some degree of climate anxietyimmediately kind of relaxes the
nervous system, and the otherthing is it's actually love,
just loving people in your lifeI'll speak in I language.
Loving people in my lifereminds me about why it's
(46:43):
important to just continue to dosomething.
I have a young daughter she'stwo and a half, emmanuel, and I
mean just like hugging her andchecking in about how her day
was at Kreisch like immediatelysoftens my nervous system
because I'm reminded of whatlife really is.
It's not always up in thenumbers of emissions targets and
(47:04):
renewable energy targets.
It's actually with the peoplethat I love.
And then I get to go back to myeveryday challenge and work,
remembering what I'm doing itfor and that there are still
many, many good, beautifulthings right here in front of me
.
It's not just this biggargantuan existential problem
behind it all.
So, yeah, focusing on the thingsthat I love, the activities
(47:27):
that I love, the people that Ilove, is, uh, always me up.
Oh, and I couldn't forgetbasically just Shabbat.
I keep Shabbat and I just knowthat I'm only ever six days away
from just chilling the F out nophone, no laptop, not busying
about, like.
That's part of why we got intothis predicament is just the
constant speed and the growthand the kind of voracious
(47:50):
appetite for more, more, moreand Shabbat comes and says you
can relax.
We can like restore the earthand existence to how it already
is and it's fine the way that itis, and just to kind of bask in
that slowness has been a reallynice balm each week from the
climate crisis and if all elsefails, medicate.
(48:12):
Amen.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Joel Lazar, ceo of the Jewish Climate Network, and
just general mensch, thank youso much for joining us today on
A Shame to Admit.
Speaker 4 (48:29):
Thanks for having me Really fun to talk to you both.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
And if people want to leave a huge donation to the
Jewish Climate Network in theirwill, how do they do that?
Speaker 4 (48:43):
For small donations, go to jcnorgau and click donate
for large bequests.
That's the word bequest.
Sort of one million plus, youknow, yeah, a million plus.
You can just email mepersonally and we can discuss
that Okay.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Thanks, Joel.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Thank you.
That was Joel Lazar from theJewish Climate Network and
you've been listening to.
A Shame to Admit with me TammySussman and Executive Director
of the Jewish Independent, drDashiell Lawrence.
Give it up for Dr DashiellLawrence.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
If you like the podcast, forward it to a mate
right now.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
You can tell us what you're ashamed to admit via the
contact form on the JewishIndependent website or by
emailing ashamed atthejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
As always.
Thank you so much for yoursupport and look out for us next
week.
Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in
Australia, the Middle East andthe world at large, but
struggling to keep up with thenew cycle?
If you answered yes, thenyou've come to the right place.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm Dash Lawrence from the Jewish Independent and
in this podcast series, yourthird cousin, Tammy Sussman, and
I call on experts and eachother to address all the
ignorant questions that youmight be too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Join us as we have a go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent podcast Ash.
Shame to Admit.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Hello everyone, I'm Tammy.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
You're also the 2004 Mariah College Vice-Captain.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Thank you for reminding our listeners.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
And I'm Dash Lawrence .
Speaker 1 (01:05):
For first-time listeners.
Tell them what you do at theJewish.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Independent.
I am the executive director,and what do you do at the Jewish
Independent?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I come to the headquarters in Sydney sometimes
and I help myself do somecomplimentary tea.
That's what I do at the JewishIndependent.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
How is our tea collection?
Speaker 1 (01:25):
I do at the Jewish Independent.
How is our tea collection?
You've got a great teacollection there.
I also write content, I makethis podcast and I am the Jewish
Independent's agony aunt orcousin with their new sex dating
relationships.
Column Sex and the Shtetl Dash.
Last week I sent you a text alittle bit out of the blue.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
On a Saturday night at about 10 o'clock.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
yes, it's on a Saturday night around 10 pm.
I sent you a text and the textread hey Dash, what keeps you up
at night?
Speaker 3 (01:57):
And you said I did.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
What did you reply?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I think I said not much.
I fall asleep within seconds ofmy head hitting the pillow most
nights.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Were you being facetious, or is that true?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
No, it's true.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Are you serious?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
I can count on one hand the number of times that I
have been awake longer than afew minutes in the last 12
months.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
What's that about?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I am literally out within seconds.
I'm also getting up at 4.30 inthe morning, so swings and
roundabouts.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
In answer to your question, I'm not lying in bed
worrying about a long list ofworries and concerns and
anxieties.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Okay, so what time of day do you ruminate, then, or
cogitate, which is a word youtaught me recently.
When are you at peak cogitation?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
The commute, sometimes in the car, can be a
time for cogitation rumination.
Those are the moments where youactually finally have to stop
during the middle of a day andyou don't get the opportunity to
fall asleep, and so your mindis still running at a million
(03:13):
miles.
That can be a time for theworries to pop up.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
What fears are at the foreground and what's in the
background.
Let's start with foreground.
Treat this as a therapy session.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Great.
You and the rest of the ashamedto admit listeners.
Just give me dot points.
Give me a list.
Five things that make youanxious.
Oh look, it could be anythingfrom did I order milk in the
Woolworths order that I've thengot to pick up later in the day?
Have I overstayed my park anddo I have to go move the car now
(03:47):
?
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, big one, important one, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Have I uploaded the show for the week?
Because Tammy's going to comedown on me like a ton of bricks
and there's only so many times Ican deal with her
disappointment.
You know, is the planet goingto overcome the imminent climate
crisis?
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I'm so glad you mentioned that, because I was
really worried that we hadabsolutely nothing in common and
we clearly have very differentspiral styles.
Yours waits until you have amoment.
My spirals don't wait, they'rejust 24-7 rumination.
So I do find it hard to fallasleep at night and some of the
(04:32):
things that keep me awakeupcoming elections,
international elections, the warthere are a few, but you know
which war is?
You know, at the forefront ofmy mind AI, artificial
intelligence.
It's coming for my job, my kidsand their education and their
(04:52):
schooling.
I was going to say my marriage,but I guess now it's my divorce
.
That's quite often just inthere playing over and over
again.
And then, on top of that,there's climate change.
I think that's the one areawhere our fears overlap.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
In a time when so much attention and focus has
naturally been on Israel and itswar seems counterintuitive to
talk about, or to be thinkingabout these bigger existential
questions facing the entireglobe.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
You're right.
A lot of Jewish people who caredeeply about the climate and
climate change feel like theyhave these two competing
existential threats right now.
Existential threats right now.
There's the existential threatof you know the Jewish existence
and having a safe place to live, a Jewish homeland, and then
(05:52):
worrying about the earth andwhat climate change is doing to
our safety in that context aswell, and so that's why we
decided to interview Joel Lazar,who is the CEO of the Jewish
Climate Network.
He's been the CEO for the lastfour and a half years.
(06:13):
Joel is a powerful storyteller.
He's a thoughtful collaboratorand passionate mentor.
His skills and experience arediverse.
They span commercial law,educational program design,
jewish youth leadership andscript writing.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Joel's passion for Judaism runs deep.
He was born and raised in theMelbourne Jewish community and
has held various leadershippositions in Jewish youth
movements and synagogues.
Above all, Joel firmly believesthat the Australian Jewish
community has an important roleto play in addressing the
impacts of climate change thatare now unfolding, while also
(06:50):
enjoying the social and economicbenefits flowing to those who
are taking swift and effectiveaction climate network before.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
they're a growing network of Aussie Jews stepping
up to the climate challenge.
They're motivated by Jewishtradition and values and their
mission is to harness thecapabilities and creativity of
the Australian Jewish communityto accelerate the transition to
a zero emissions world.
If you're someone like me whogets really overwhelmed by all
(07:24):
of this, I can assure you thatthis conversation with Joel
Lazar will help ease some ofthat overwhelm and you'll leave
the conversation feeling moreequipped with tools of how you
can take action.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Joel Azar.
Welcome to the Ashamed to Admitstudio.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
Great to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Joel, I think we should begin today's interview
with the question most commonlypresented to you, and that is
why do we need a Jewish?
Speaker 4 (08:17):
climate network Precisely?
Please tell us.
Nice Look, it's a question Iget a lot probably the most
asked since I started in thisrole four and a half years ago
and it's a fair one.
We have hundreds of climategroups already, and we have
hundreds of Jewish groupsalready, so do we need another
Jewish climate group?
And I think the answer I oftengive to that is based on what
(08:38):
Sir David Attenborough tells usnow, which is that climate
change is really no longer ascientific problem.
We've known the scientific issuefor decades.
Now it's actually acommunications problem and
knowing that our community andevery community that has the
opportunity to get involved inclimate change action need the
(08:58):
right messengers.
They need people they can trustto give them information that's
credible, from people who theyhave an affinity with, who they
like, and that's just basicsocial science.
It's the tribalism of humanbeings that we don't accept the
same message, no matter whogives it to us.
We accept it from people who wefeel closeness to and
(09:19):
connection to.
So the JCN was founded becauseour board and our team and our
volunteers, our entire ecosystemis seeping with Jewishness, and
that's one of the key toolsthat we need in order to cut
through to the Jewish communityand give our community
everything they need to getactive.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Joel, how does a good Jewish boy from the Bagel Belt,
an alumni of Yavna Liebner, agraduate lawyer, end up becoming
involved in climate advocacy?
Speaker 4 (09:48):
Well, I would say, a couple of years into corporate
law, I started to scan foropportunities that would feel
more, I guess, aligned for me,where I felt purposeful, getting
up every day and spending ahuge chunk of my day on whatever
it was I was working on.
And about five, six years ago,I just dove deeper into the
science.
I read books, watched a bunchof YouTube videos and just very
(10:11):
quickly realized, hmm, we'rehalfway through possibly the
most important decade of themillennium for the human species
and for the Jewish people andfor Israel.
If we don't turn this shiparound on climate change and
emissions and nature loss andbiodiversity loss, we won't have
a chance, basically 10 yearsfrom now.
And so I just kind of imaginedmyself sitting in a rocking
chair.
(10:31):
I'm 85 years old, I'm lookingback at my life and I'm thinking
am I happy with what I did, thechoices I made?
And I kind of had this feelingthat I would regret having not
gotten involved in doingsomething about climate change
when I learned what I hadlearned.
I would regret it.
I don't know what I would tellmy kids if they said oh, you
found out in the early 2020sthat shit was hitting the fan
(10:53):
and you just continued on withyour life.
That wouldn't be a very nicefeeling.
So yeah, I scanned around andJCN had just been founded by an
amazing group of communityleaders and they were looking
for their first CEO.
And I just thought let's do it.
You know, time is of theessence.
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Was it a classic social justice or environmental
orientated family that you grewup in?
Speaker 4 (11:16):
I think we always had good values.
My mom was always a member ofthe teachers union.
I went to Hineni where Ilearned how to be a good mensch.
Union I went to Hineni where Ilearned how to be a good mensch.
Yavner gave me great valuesalso, but none of us were
environmentalists.
None of us strapped ourselvesto trees on the weekend.
That's not in my history.
(11:39):
Me getting involved in climatewas just a very kind of
objective realization, lookingat the science, looking at the
solutions, looking at the speedat which we were going and just
kind of piecing it all togetherand then looking at how the
Jewish community could beleaders on this and we weren't,
and it was just kind of anatural conclusion.
So there's nothing embedded inmy family, necessarily, but I
think it's a kind of it's acholent of values that kind of
ushered me towards thisdirection.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
A cholent of values.
That is amazing.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Yeah, you know, there's the beans and there's
the.
I don't know, I don't makechocolate very often.
I don't know what else goesinto it Some potatoes, some meat
.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Clearly you're quite Jewish, Joel.
You mentioned Hineni, which isa Jewish youth movement.
We have some listeners whoaren't Jewish.
So clearly your Jewish identityhas influenced your approach.
Are there any kind of Jewishteachings or traditions that
align with climateresponsibility?
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Look there are.
I'll answer that in two ways.
The first is actually through astory.
I just can't help myself buttell a story?
Speaker 1 (12:40):
No, we love stories.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
But there's this famous story, famous story in
the Talmud, in the Jewish Talmud, where our sages tell of a man
called Choni who's walking Idon't know somewhere through the
fields and he sees this otherguy who's planting a carob tree.
And Choni looks at him and hesays mate, like what are you
doing?
It takes about 70 years for acarob tree to mature.
You'll be long dead before yousee the fruits of this tree.
(13:07):
What's the point?
And the man says the honey.
He says look around.
And he sees all these othermature carob trees that are all
their beautiful, fruiting, andhe says you know, my ancestors
planted these carob trees andthey didn't see the fruits of
them.
And I now get to enjoy them.
So I too will plant a carobtree for my kids and generations
to come, and for me thatepitomises the real depth of
(13:27):
what Judaism has to say aboutthis climate change challenge,
that where the Jewish people arefundamentally a people who have
the long view.
We have a long collectivememory into the past and we have
a long view to the future.
We don't just think about theday to day and climate change is
inherently a long term problem,a multi decadal problem.
So that's really inspiring, andthere's a whole list of other
(13:50):
Jewish lines that you know.
Oblige us not to waste, whichincludes not wasting energy, not
wasting resources, cruelty toanimals.
The Sabbath, which is all aboutresting and letting the earth
rest.
There's, you know, a massivelist of these things and and
they're all beautiful and I drawon them from time to time, but
I think that multi-generationalstory is a real powerful one.
(14:11):
From Judaism, the second part ofJudaism, which is more about
Jewish lived experience thanJewish texts, that inspires,
that can inspire us around.
Climate is around like the ideaof the status quo versus change
, and, like the jewish people,we never accept the status quo.
That's just not who we areright.
If we had accepted the statusquo, we'd be long gone.
(14:33):
We look at the societies aroundus, especially when we're in
times of turmoil and strife, andwe say, like this isn't
inevitable, we're not fatalistic, we can have agency in changing
the course of history, andthat's been part of our
ingenuity, I think, over time,and I think that's the exact
spirit that we need in order toovercome climate change problems
(14:54):
.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
On the topic of status quo, then, and not
accepting it, are you able totell me something a little bit
off-brand, maybe that you'velearned about climate change
over the past four and a halfyears in your role as CEO?
Anything that surprised you,that may, in turn, surprise our
(15:15):
listeners.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
I will answer the question with another question,
and that is it's a technicalnerdy question which is how much
renewable energy to either ofyou think is in the australian
electricity market, like all theelectricity that comes into our
light bulbs and our heating,etc.
All different types of sourcesof energy.
(15:36):
What percentage comes fromrenewable energy, do you think?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
I'm gonna go with 18 high 18.
What do you think, dash?
I'm ashamed to go with 18, high18%.
What do you think, Dash?
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I'm ashamed to admit I don't know how much currently
we have that is generated byrenewable energy.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Take a punt.
There's no shame.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I mean, I think the potential is huge.
Obviously, we've got vast, vastresources, natural resources,
and we can be utilising the sunmuch better than what we
currently do.
I'm going to say 8%, no half ofhigh, I'm going to say 9%.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
Okay, we've got a 9% 18%.
In the quarter ending Decemberlast year, 46% of our
electricity came from renewableenergy 46.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
Pretty good.
Tammy's not that impressed,doesn't seem that impressed.
She's like okay, if you say so,things have come a long way.
Things have come a long way,yeah, and the average last year
was 42%, and there was a time inNovember last year where it was
75%, 75%, right.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Wow, what happened.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
It's a very sunny day , basically Sunny, windy day
yeah, perfect combination ofhuge amounts of sun, huge
amounts of wind, all beingcaptured by wind farms and solar
farms and things like that.
So I mean, that's somethingthat continually amazes and
surprises me.
For people who feel a bitdespondent, like are we going to
get there?
One of the main things we haveto do is get to as close to 100
(17:06):
renewable energy as possible.
We've got to get off fossilfuels, and the fact that we're
already at about 42 is justphenomenal.
So we're track.
We're getting there already.
We just need to go a lot faster, and I think that might
surprise a lot of audiencemembers that we're actually that
far along already and weshouldn't do anything that kind
of takes us off track.
So that's pretty cool.
(17:26):
There's a commonly misunderstoodidea around, like what global
heating even is.
You might have heard this ideathat we can't go above 1.5
degrees of warming since theindustrial revolution, or people
talk about 1.5 degrees or twodegrees.
You might see this in the newsand there's a misconception that
this is like the weatheroutside, like oh, we can't go
(17:47):
from 27 degrees Celsius to 28and a half, but obviously like
that's not so bad.
Why would that be a problem?
And I often tell people tothink more about the predicament
we're in, as though the planetis like a human body and our
human body is very carefullycalibrated to correct me if I'm
wrong like 37 and a half degreesor something like that, and we
(18:07):
have a very severe temperature.
If we go a couple of degreesabove that and a couple of
degrees more, we're dead.
We're brain dead, it's, and sothe system is.
The planet system is like thatas well.
So when you think 1.52 degrees,every fraction of a degree
increases extreme weather eventsby many folds, and so that's
(18:27):
why those little micro degreesare really important.
So those are kind of like somenerdy things that people might
not have known.
And then I'll say something offbrand, which is about recycling.
Okay, I talk to people who askme what do I do?
I say I work for the JewishClimate Network, and then they
tell me about all of theirrecycling practices.
They tell me, oh, it's so hard,and my neighbor puts it in the
(18:49):
wrong bin.
You know, I'm okay putting thison record, but I did a little
back of the envelope calculationlast night and I figured out
that if you spent a minute a dayagonising about your recycling.
You'd spend about six and a halfhours per year on your
recycling practices six and ahalf hours and I'm giving
permission to our audience touse half of that on highly
(19:13):
effective climate action.
If you spent three of thosehours meeting your local member
of parliament three times a yeardoing the next thing on your
home if you can afford it, likewhacking on solar panels or the
next bit of electrification, or,if you can't, switching your
bank account or yoursuperannuation funds to one that
doesn't invest in fossil fuels,or just signing up to the JCA
(19:35):
newsletter so you continue to beinspired and read it for five
minutes a month, that will be ahundred times more impactful.
The truth is, we don't haveinfinite amounts of attention
and brain space to do all thethings, so you have to choose.
And if you're spending six anda half hours on recycling and
nothing else on highly effectiveclimate action, I would
encourage you to just drop therecycling a bit and go and visit
(19:56):
your MP and have a relationshipwith your MP.
I'm going to get cancelled forthat.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
As Australia heads to the polls, voters are focused
on the usual issues health,education and the cost of living
, but for the past 18 months,the conflict in Israel, Gaza and
beyond has cast a long shadowover Australian society.
Free Palestine Free, freePalestine.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Thousands of police patrols have been deployed
across Victoria's Jewishcommunities in a bid to stamp
out racist intimidation.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
The surge in anti-Semitism has deeply
impacted the Jewish community.
The surge in anti-Semitism hasdeeply impacted the Jewish
community.
There is an evil at work inthis country.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
No fire, no vandalism , no paint, no threats, no
intimidation.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
The role of our political leaders in maintaining
social cohesion has never beenmore critical.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
The awful anti-Semitism chanted by some of
the protesters at the SydneyOpera House is beyond offensive.
It is a betrayal of ourAustralian values.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
We are having rolling terrorist attacks in our
community and the Prime Ministerhas been dragged, kicking and
screaming.
I'm Rob Caldor and IntentionsTransplanted.
Series 2 will explore a coupleof key questions.
Is anti-Jewish racism an issueof broader national significance
and how will this electionshape Australia's social fabric?
Join me as I chat withjournalists and contributors
(21:25):
from the Jewish Independent.
To unpack it all, we'll diveinto the role of the Muslim vote
, key battleground seats withsignificant Jewish populations,
and how the major parties arepositioning themselves on Israel
, gaza and the future of socialcohesion in Australia.
New episodes drop weekly in thelead-up to the election.
(21:46):
Subscribe now, wherever you getyour podcasts.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
What I am really interested in understanding from
you is in climate change isconsidered, unfortunately, a
(22:29):
cause of the left, primarily acause of sort of woke left-wing
politics.
This is not my view, but Ithink this is the reality that
we're facing, that it isunfortunately being bundled in
with an issue that only the leftis concerned with or the elites
, and this is only going to getworse, I expect, with a Trump
administration, and I think thatthe Jewish community is not
immune, unfortunately, fromfalling into the trap of
(22:53):
adopting that mindset.
I'm wondering how you are ableto kind of break free from this
falling back into an issue thatonly left-wing elites, woke
people should and are beingconcerned about.
How are you able to and whatare you doing to break free of
(23:16):
that dynamic?
Speaker 4 (23:18):
It's a great question .
It's possibly the question, thequestion of all questions.
There's a lot of different waysI think about this and JCN
thinks about this.
I'll start the answer with somefactoids about the history of
conservative and Republicaninvolvement in environmental
action.
Richard Nixon, republicanPresident of the United States,
(23:43):
was a huge environmentalchampion and he established the
Environmental Protection Agencyin America.
Malcolm Fraser, liberalAustralian Prime Minister,
founded the AustralianConservation Foundation and
passed a series of reallyimportant environmental laws.
It has not always been the casethat quote unquote the left or
(24:05):
more progressive parts ofsociety have championed
environmental custodianship andstewardship.
Weird shit happened inAustralia, especially by the way
, whereby it kind of gotcordoned off into a left
ideological issue.
And it didn't have to be thisway In the UK for a long time.
It's perfectly bipartisan.
(24:25):
Boris Johnson, very strong onclimate, a Tory leader.
So it's not inbuilt into leftideology that they get climate
and the rest of the world haveto deal with other right-wing
conservative economic things.
So I would just remind ouraudience that it kind of belongs
to everyone and it kind ofoscillates between who champions
it over time.
To that I would add Jewishtradition has held, like Tammy
(24:50):
asked me before, has held thesevalues for thousands of years,
before the left even existed,even the concept or the
political parties.
So I feel like there's thisopportunity to reclaim those
parts of our jewish values andthe songbook that we've sung
from for so long and say wait asecond, like this is our thing.
(25:10):
How did we cede the territoryto like a niche of society?
And then the last thing I'llsay is climate is not this
appendix to the rest of life?
Right, I had my appendix outwhen I was in kindergarten, so I
actually don't know what it'slike to have anything to do with
an appendix.
(25:30):
But climate is not an appendixto life.
It impacts deeply the economy,it impacts public health.
It impacts deeply the economy,it impacts public health, it
impacts the most vulnerable.
It impacts everything that wecall life.
And so for anyone who championslife, for anyone who champions
as good, sensible economicmanagement, for anyone who
champions good public healthoutcomes, a climate lens is
(25:52):
critical to doing all of thosethings really well.
And on the Israel and Jewishcommunity fronts and this is
probably the cherry on topIsrael is in a climate hotspot
in the Middle East.
It stands to suffer most fromclimate impacts, from extreme
heat and from droughts more thanmany other countries.
So people who care aboutIsrael's long-term prosperity,
(26:13):
particularly social cohesion inthe Middle East, where droughts
and extreme weather canexacerbate social collapse.
And social collapse in theMiddle East is never good for
Israel and it's also not goodfor Jewish communities around
the world.
Again, there's an invitation tothink about climate as a deeply
Jewish issue, and one that ourcommunity should actually be
(26:35):
spending a lot more time andenergy preparing for.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Joel, I totally hear all those things that you're
saying, and yet I'm alsowondering to what extent has the
JCN suffered since October 7th,when I know, unfortunately,
there have been segments thatthe climate, the wider climate
(27:21):
advocacy network, has betrayedthem or that they don't
understand the position ofJewish members of their side.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
So there's a few really important elements here
and I think it's important toseparate them out into pieces.
The first is that, on the whole, the majority of the climate
groups and climate leaders inaustralia that we've interacted
with or discussed climate policywith have been great.
(27:53):
Either they have what I would,they've done what I would call
staying in their lane.
You know they're focused ontheir core mission of climate,
because we can't all getinvolved in every social justice
and global issue that arisesevery day, and I think staying
in their lane has been importantto maintaining their integrity
and credibility as climatemessengers.
(28:15):
Some of them have also beenincredible allies and reached
out shortly after October 7.
We've had deep, extensivedialogue about how their
organizations will have Jewishvolunteers, jewish staff, jewish
board members, jewish donorsand just general Jewish
stakeholders who are in a lot ofpain right now and have really
(28:38):
welcomed the opportunity to hearfrom me, as someone with deep
lived experience from within theJewish community and who
understands the climate world,also to share with them what
that experience is, to increasetheir empathy and their
understanding and their nuance,and I've seen a lot of really
beautiful fruits come from that.
And then there's been a, Iwould say, a vocal minority, as
is and I've seen a lot of reallybeautiful fruits come from that
(28:59):
and then there's been a, Iwould say, a vocal minority as
is often the case with a lot ofthis stuff like a rabid vocal
minority, where you sort ofchoose how much attention you
want to pay to those, becauseyou could easily spend all of
your time and days focusing onthe loudest and angriest and
least empathetic people, and mygeneral philosophy is more to
embolden and strengthen andbuild ties with allies in order
(29:22):
to increase the circle offriends that we have, who
understand our experience, andthat naturally they will then
become the dominant force andpartners.
And then the minority who arethe most destructive remain on
the fringe.
And the fringe still needs tobe dealt with because the
fringes can become themainstream very quickly.
(29:42):
That's been probably one of thelessons of jewish history that
what appears to be a fringe ideaabout the jews suddenly is in
the mainstream and, holy shit,how did we get here?
So we've got to deal with thefringes, but we can't forget
almost the silent majority inthe middle who want to
understand, who want to connect,who maybe just don't have the
knowledge or the access to aJewish voice who's willing to
(30:04):
hear them out and share.
So we've been doing a lot ofthat since October 7, and it's
been really fruitful and quiteencouraging to know that wait a
second.
There is a model here forpartnering with people in
different progressive and socialmovements, and I think that's
probably led to what I believeis the climate movement becoming
kind of the least outspoken onantisemitism, like the least
(30:27):
antisemitic, shall we say, ofmany of the other progressive
movements, except for Greta.
Except for Greta, but also,let's set aside a moment for
Greta, because I think that'swhat we all want to talk about.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
We all want to talk about Greta Thunberg.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
Let's remember, greta is one human being.
She's one human being with alarge audience, but there are
millions and millions of otherpeople who do not get airtime,
who are not in the news, who areshaping society, who are not
Greta.
So it would be unwise to kindof cast out an entire cause
(31:03):
because there's an individualwithin that cause who we dislike
.
We wouldn't really do that.
I would hope we wouldn't dothat with kind of other causes.
And the fundamental science ofclimate is still there,
regardless of Greta right, gretaor no Greta.
We are getting close to 1.5degrees of warming and we need
to do something about it and itwill impact us.
So we have to find a way tokind of act in spite of Greta,
(31:25):
potentially.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Joel, I was interested in the fact that
people have been so focused onwhat's going on in Israel and
the war with Hamas that you knowin some ways it must have made
your job so much more difficultin the last 18-plus months
because you know people arehurting and their thoughts with
the hostages, thoughts with theconflict itself, must be very
(31:50):
difficult to get a word in about.
You know the other very bigexistential matter of the fact
that the world is getting hotterand action is more needed now
than ever before.
Speaker 4 (32:04):
Yeah, I think it's harder for anyone in this
community who is trying to bringattention to something other
than the hostages and the war,which makes complete sense, Like
the human brain can only holdso much and we are at this
complete existential crisisright now, which is why I'm very
careful to not overimpose or toask people to think any
(32:28):
differently, just because Ihappen to be thinking about this
a lot as well, but just to meetpeople where they're at and
find those gentle avenuestowards doing more on climate.
That feels like not anadditional psychological burden
but can be sort of justintegrated into the current
state of affairs.
(32:48):
A couple of examples of thatare you know, there were
Israelis who were killed andtaken hostage, who were real
environmental champions fordecades, and a way to both
maintain our attention on thewar and the hostages and also
think about the substance of thelife work of some of those
people is a way to kind ofhonour both our attention on the
(33:11):
war but also to bring attentionto what's happening on climate
and sustainability issues.
And that's felt quite good todo that and affirming and I kind
of just go where there issufficient energy and I think
the Jewish community is notmonolithic.
It's not like in a block.
Every single person is 100%maxed out at all times, thinking
(33:33):
about this one thing right, weebb and we flow.
Sometimes there are littlepockets who feel like, oh, they
can come up for air for whateverreason.
There's a million differentreasons why someone might feel
they can come up for air.
And so in those moments it'slike, hey, jcn is still here,
the climate crisis is still here.
I mean, that's not like a funmessage necessarily, like now
you can turn your attention toanother existential problem, but
(33:54):
we maintain our presence.
We continue to put outofferings of resources and
events and opportunities forpeople to get involved so that
when they can tap back in,they're ready, and I think
that's been a wise approach sofar you mentioned that the
Jewish community is not amonolith and, and to me that's
(34:15):
so true, especially as we leadinto an election.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
So for our international listeners, here in
Australia we're about to votein our federal election and it's
at this time where I see a lotof stuff on social media from
all different parts of theJewish community, people, you
(34:41):
know, pushing differentpolitical agendas.
So I'm just curious to know, aswe approach this election in
May, joel, what do you see asthe most pressing climate
challenges facing Australians,and how much influence do you
(35:01):
think individual voters orfaith-based communities have on
shaping those government climatepolicies?
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Excellent question.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
I think the challenges we face as a country
in the lead up to the electionare the same, regardless of if
we had an election in a month ornot.
Our emissions are rising.
We need to get them down,Extreme weather is proliferating
, so all of these things arejust there.
There are backdrops to thecurrent election and, you know,
the scientific reality doesn'tcare that we have an election in
(35:37):
four weeks.
So that's like one littlepreface.
I would say that as we getcloser to an election, our
representatives and candidateswho are vying for our votes are
out and about more than theyusually are.
They're talking to people,they're hugging babies, they're
kissing horses, they're doingall kinds of stuff, and this is
(35:59):
a chance to speak to them morethan we usually get a chance to
speak to them, and I think wecommonly underestimate the power
of the average punter's voicein the life of a politician I
often like to think about thisis going to sound a bit strange,
but the relationship between usand our politicians should be
(36:21):
like a healthy, long-termmarriage.
A healthy, long-term marriagehas two key parts to it.
It starts off with the wedding.
The wedding day.
Very happy, very excitingWedding day is election day.
This is where we decide ifwe're going to be together for
the next X period.
Right, but no one is under anyillusion that a marriage is the
(36:43):
result of a good wedding.
Wedding is part one.
More important is part two,which is every single day that
we cultivate a relationship withthat partner, where we teach
each other things, where wepositively influence one another
to become better versions ofourselves.
And we don't relate to ourpoliticians this way, and that's
why many of us don't trustpoliticians.
(37:03):
Trust in politicians is at anall-time low across most
countries.
But if we shifted our mindsetto wait a second, I want to be
in relationship with this personfor the years to come.
I want to go to their office.
I want to share how I feelabout things.
I want to share ideas with them.
They want to hear this becausethat lets them know this is what
my voters care about.
So to some extent, yes, we havean election coming up.
(37:26):
It's very exciting.
Go talk to those politicians.
Maybe there's a slim chance ofinfluencing a policy in the last
month before the election daycomes.
It's probably a little bit slimbecause a lot of these big
decisions have already been madeby the parties in recent months
.
But there is a chance.
But I would encourage people tothink more about the day after
the election and to say itdoesn't matter who you voted for
(37:49):
.
I've heard a beautiful phraserecently which was doesn't
matter who you voted for.
I've heard a beautiful phraserecently which was don't change
who you vote for.
Change who you vote for.
It's not about the person, it'sabout changing the person you
happen to vote for.
So, whoever that person happensto be on the left of the
spectrum, the right or themiddle, see the opportunity to
change that person to care moreabout climate.
(38:10):
Every party has this amazingpotential to be a leader on
climate issues from its ownunique philosophy and history,
as I mentioned before, and seeyourself as that marriage
partner with your politician.
Go propose to your MP and seewhat happens.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
I tried it in my own marriage and it didn't work.
But you know what?
I still have hope and I'm goingto give it a go with my local
MP.
Joel, can you just like tell mewho to vote for?
Speaker 4 (38:42):
Wouldn't it be so nice if someone could just make
the decision for you.
I'll make my little legaldisclaimer we are a
not-for-profit.
We can't blah, blah, blah, so wedon't tell people who to vote
for.
But what I will say, what Ithink is a little bit behind the
question, especially thattension in people who care about
climate and want to vote forparties that are going to do
(39:03):
something about it, like theGreens, don't own climate.
I'm just going to put it outthere.
I know it's in their name greatbranding but they don't own the
issue I mentioned earlier.
Richard Nixon, the EPA, malcolmFraser, australian Conservation
Foundation.
Talk to the politician who youcare about, who you want to vote
(39:26):
for, to do more about climatechange.
That is the most potent thingyou can do to get change in this
country.
And I will say what's soimportant about that is
bipartisanship.
We haven't used this phrase yetin this interview, but it's a
really important one.
I want listeners to take away nosingle party.
What does it mean again?
So bipartisanship is that allparties agree on a particular
(39:51):
issue.
Right, it is highly destructivewhen one party it doesn't
matter who one party makes adecision on some awesome climate
policy and then three yearslater, the other one gets
elected and says we're canningthe whole thing and every time
we flip flop between them, wecan't make long-term decisions.
Investors can't build hugerenewable projects that take
(40:11):
decades to come to fruition.
So the most important thing wecan do, especially as a Jewish
community, is to fosterbipartisanship on climate change
issues so that all the parties,like I said, greens, don't own
this.
We need to get all of the majorparties on board with the key
policies that help us shape thenext 10 years, 20 years, 30
years into the future.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Great, joel, we've asked you some really big
questions.
In fact, you even said we askedyou the question.
But don't peak too soon,because another vital question
that I need to address is thisone If you, joel Lazar, ceo of
(40:53):
the Jewish Climate Network,could sit down with any
historical Jewish figure todiscuss climate action, who
would it be and why?
Speaker 4 (41:04):
I've got the most nerdy answer that any person
could possibly come up with tothis question.
Go for it.
It's a guy called Simon Kuznets.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Okay, what's his vibe ?
Speaker 4 (41:18):
Kuznets' vibe.
He was a Jew born in Russia in1901, who fled to America in
1922 because of antisemitism,and he is he's also a Nobel
Prize winner of economics.
In 1971, he won the Nobel Prizefor economics and he is the
founding father of GDP grossdomestic products.
(41:41):
Okay, he was charged with theUnited States government with
coming up with a figure duringthe Great Depression that would
give them a reliable measure ofnational output you know how is
this country faring and he cameup with this concept called
national income and that wasultimately used by the UN and
(42:02):
the World Bank and theInternational Monetary Fund,
ultimately to become GDP.
Now, GDP is like now, thisnumber one figure that most
societies use as the measure ofwhether or not the country is on
track, prosperous.
But Sir Nicholas Stern, who wasthe chief economist at the World
Bank, would say that climatechange is the greatest market
(42:23):
failure the world has ever seen.
Climate change is the greatestmarket failure the world has
ever seen and that is because,as we proliferated fossil fuels,
fossil fuel companies neverpaid for the pollution that they
created while producing energy,and they put that out onto all
of us.
Basically, they externalized itinstead of internalizing it,
(42:44):
and that's why Stern says it'sthe greatest mark of failure.
So the idea of GDP being thissingle measure of holy growth,
telling know, telling us ifsociety is on track.
But clearly we have beengrowing for centuries now so in
theory we should be entirelyprosperous with no problems.
But we obviously have bigproblems.
We have prospered but we alsohave problems.
And Kuznets always cautionedpeople.
(43:06):
He said do not use GDP as theultimate measure of wellbeing
because it's going to excludeimportant things like
environmental impact, unpaidwork, people in homes who don't
get paid, quality of life,happiness, so all of these
measures.
So I want to sit down withKuznets and I want to say you're
warning people not to use GDPas the single measure of
(43:26):
happiness.
The secret is they ended updoing it, Sorry.
Do you have any ideas about howto include in GDP an additional
measure for long-termprosperity for human beings, so
that that gets included in ourmeasure for happiness, long-term
?
Speaker 1 (43:44):
I think I now know why you're the CEO of the Jewish
Climate Network.
Speaker 4 (43:50):
It's so dirty.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
I chose Grandma Yedta from the Nanny.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
I love Grandma Yetta.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Maybe we could double date.
How do you reckon Grandma Yettawould get along with your guy?
Speaker 4 (44:04):
With cousins.
Yeah, I think after a fewmartinis they would get on like
a house on fire.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Joel, I'm sure by now our listeners would have
recognised that there is anamazing capacity in you to
reframe problems and to leaninto positivity and into action,
when I think for many peoplethe instinct would be pessimism
(44:34):
defeat anxiety.
So perhaps, to finish up theconversation today, give us some
idea of how you have been ableto manage and contain your own
anxieties about the climatechange challenge before us, and
perhaps leave us with some ofthe tools that you've learnt or
(44:56):
that you think are worthconsidering, because I know
there'll be people listening tothis conversation who don't have
that instinct for positivity orthat instinct for action that
you have.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
He's looking at me, but there are lots of people
like me out there, so help Joel.
Speaker 4 (45:16):
Look the interesting thing I'll go back to.
When you asked if I got thisfrom my family, I don't think I
have an instinct necessarily inthe sense that it's innate in me
to want to work on this issueall day.
I think it's very much aneveryday person problem and an
everyday person opportunity.
A few tools that I use to getby week to week.
(45:36):
One is a phrase that Iabsolutely love, which is action
is the antidote to despair.
Action is the antidote todespair when we don't know how
the future will unfold.
Doing something naturally helpsus feel like we have some
control over that future.
I have the privilege of beingable to work on this all week,
(46:00):
so I'm often getting thatantidote, that little kind of
injection in me, and I think alot of people in our network
have found that to be true.
No matter how small having aconversation with a friend about
how they put solar panels ontheir roof suddenly you feel
that little injection of pride.
Like I said, sending a letterto an MP or even just sharing
(46:21):
your struggle, your anxiety withsomebody else who also shares
some degree of climate anxietyimmediately kind of relaxes the
nervous system, and the otherthing is it's actually love,
just loving people in your lifeI'll speak in I language.
Loving people in my lifereminds me about why it's
(46:43):
important to just continue to dosomething.
I have a young daughter she'stwo and a half, emmanuel, and I
mean just like hugging her andchecking in about how her day
was at Kreisch like immediatelysoftens my nervous system
because I'm reminded of whatlife really is.
It's not always up in thenumbers of emissions targets and
(47:04):
renewable energy targets.
It's actually with the peoplethat I love.
And then I get to go back to myeveryday challenge and work,
remembering what I'm doing itfor and that there are still
many, many good, beautifulthings right here in front of me
.
It's not just this biggargantuan existential problem
behind it all.
So, yeah, focusing on the thingsthat I love, the activities
(47:27):
that I love, the people that Ilove, is, uh, always me up.
Oh, and I couldn't forgetbasically just Shabbat.
I keep Shabbat and I just knowthat I'm only ever six days away
from just chilling the F out nophone, no laptop, not busying
about, like.
That's part of why we got intothis predicament is just the
constant speed and the growthand the kind of voracious
(47:50):
appetite for more, more, moreand Shabbat comes and says you
can relax.
We can like restore the earthand existence to how it already
is and it's fine the way that itis, and just to kind of bask in
that slowness has been a reallynice balm each week from the
climate crisis and if all elsefails, medicate.
(48:12):
Amen.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Joel Lazar, ceo of the Jewish Climate Network, and
just general mensch, thank youso much for joining us today on
A Shame to Admit.
Speaker 4 (48:29):
Thanks for having me Really fun to talk to you both.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
And if people want to leave a huge donation to the
Jewish Climate Network in theirwill, how do they do that?
Speaker 4 (48:43):
For small donations, go to jcnorgau and click donate
for large bequests.
That's the word bequest.
Sort of one million plus, youknow, yeah, a million plus.
You can just email mepersonally and we can discuss
that Okay.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Thanks, Joel.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Thank you.
That was Joel Lazar from theJewish Climate Network and
you've been listening to.
A Shame to Admit with me TammySussman and Executive Director
of the Jewish Independent, drDashiell Lawrence.
Give it up for Dr DashiellLawrence.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
If you like the podcast, forward it to a mate
right now.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
You can tell us what you're ashamed to admit via the
contact form on the JewishIndependent website or by
emailing ashamed atthejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
As always.
Thank you so much for yoursupport and look out for us next
week.
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